Something You Should Know - The Power of Being Humble in a Narcissistic World & Where Stars Come From

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Ever have a night where your dreams seem really vivid and maybe even disturbing? This episode begins by looking at the typical causes of really weird and vivid dreams. https://www.livestrong.com/article/13773031-vivid-dreams/ It may be a tough sell in our culture but being humble can actually be a powerful and effective way to build confidence, strengthen relationships and achieve success. That’s according to Daryl R. Van Tongeren, an associate professor of psychology at Hope College and author of the book Humble: Free Yourself from the Traps of a Narcissistic World (https://amzn.to/3QCxemC). Daryl joins me to explain how a little humility can go a long way to improving anyone’s life. When you look up at the sky at night, do you ever wonder what a star actually is, how it was formed and how it got there? Or how planets and moons form? Are there other planets out there in space that can sustain life? Here to explain some of the mysteries of the night sky is Emily Levesque. She is a professor of astronomy at the University of Washington and author of the book The Last Stargazers: The Enduring Story of Astronomy's Vanishing Explorers (https://amzn.to/3zQ6oAM). Summer is the time for sandals and flip flops and other open-toe shoes. There is just one little problem. And that is, you are picking up some of the grossest things imaginable on your toes that you then track into your house. Listen as I explain the problem and simple solution. Source: Philip Tierno, author of “Secret Life of Germs: https://amzn.to/3zEjVLW PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really like The Jordan Harbinger Show! Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start OR search for it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen!  Go to https://Shopify.com/sysk for a FREE fourteen-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features! Truebill is the smartest way to manage your finances. The average person saves $720 per year with Truebill. Get started today at https://Truebill.com/SYSK! Redeem your rewards for cash in any amount, at any time, with Discover Card! Learn more at https://Discover.com/RedeemRewards Download Best Fiends for FREE from the App Store or Google play.. Plus, earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5! So, if you think you’re okay to drive after a few drinks, think again. Play it safe and plan ahead to get a ride. Drive sober or get pulled over! Paid for by NHTSA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why is it some of the dreams you have are more vivid than others, sometimes disturbingly vivid? Then the benefits of being humble in a narcissistic world. People who are humble are reaping benefits in their relationships. Then, the benefits of being humble in a narcissistic world. People who are humble are reaping benefits in their relationships.

Most people want to be in relationships with other people who are humble. Research has found that leaders are more effective when they're humble. Workplaces are better when people embrace humility. Also, if you wear open-toe shoes in the summer, there's something a little gross you need to hear. And where do stars come from and what are astronomers looking for when they look up at the sky? We're trying to answer questions like how did the universe begin or are we alone in the universe and how will the universe end? So when we

gain the ability to see farther across the universe, we're directly gaining new puzzle pieces to try and answer questions like that. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman

who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named the Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show.

There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, and welcome to Something You Should Know. We all dream. Some of us remember our dreams better than others, but everybody dreams. And have you ever had that experience of having a really vivid dream? So vivid that when you wake up, you're a little bit shaken or unsettled or just in that state of, wow, that was a really vivid dream.

It happens to me, and I always wondered why. And it turns out there are a couple of things that could cause it. One is that you're sleep deprived. Not getting enough sleep can intensify your dreams. The same goes for when your sleep gets interrupted or if you're dealing with changes to your sleep schedule. That's according to the Mayo Clinic. Maybe you've been binge-watching some scary shows before bed. And even though you know those flesh-eating zombies or whatever you're watching isn't real, sometimes watching or reading something scary can trigger feelings of stress and anxiety, and that can spill over into your dreams. It could just be that you're stressed out. It can be harder to

fall asleep when you're stressed, which can cause you to become sleep deprived and lead to weirder and more intense dreams when you finally do not off. If you're pregnant or recently gave birth, that can really mess up your dreams. And the reason, like so many other pregnancy side effects, is due to shifting hormones. And it could be a medication you're taking. Some antidepressants, blood pressure medications, beta blockers, and drugs used to treat Parkinson's disease or to help people stop smoking

seem to send dreams into nightmare territory, according to the Mayo Clinic. Or maybe you're just a vivid dreamer. And that is something you should know. If you think of someone who is humble, what do you think of? I think of someone who doesn't brag a lot, who's courteous, maybe somewhat deferential. Someone who doesn't need a lot, who's courteous, maybe somewhat deferential, someone who doesn't need to hog the spotlight. A humble person is a nice person.

But nice guys finish last, according to the old saying, and it's been said that today we live in a narcissistic world where being humble is difficult. So being humble, showing humility, is that old school? Is that on the way out, since we live in a look-at-me culture? I want you to meet someone who has studied the power of being humble.

Daryl Van Tongeren is an associate professor of psychology at Hope College. He's a social psychologist who has written over 160 articles, and he's author of a couple of books, including Humble, Free Yourself from the Traps of a Narcissistic World. Hey, Daryl, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, thank you for having me. So it does seem that we live in a world or a culture that doesn't really celebrate being humble or humility.

That we live in a culture that really wants you to toot your own horn, hey, look at me. And you even call this a narcissistic trap that we live in now, that the world has become much more narcissistic. So how did that start? Yeah, so researchers in the 80s and 90s, psychologists particularly, focused a lot on developing self-esteem. And they thought if we could increase people's self-esteem, we would solve a number of social ills. And what researchers have actually come to find out is the focus on enhancing self-esteem has actually left us more isolated, more anxious, more depressed, and less able to interact with people with whom

we disagree than ever before. And so some researchers suggest that we're actually undergoing a narcissism epidemic. And if we look around, people are more mentally unwell, and they're less able to interact with people with whom they differ. And those two things combined suggest to me we need a different way of doing things. Well, what's interesting about the word humble to me, we need a different way of doing things. Well, what's interesting about the word humble to me is that people say that, you know, I like, he's so humble. He's such a nice guy. He's so humble. But humble also has a bit of a negative twist to it because it kind of implies maybe insecure, lacks confidence, doormat, you's good, but it's not so good.

Absolutely. And I do think that historically, humility and the word humble has been used somewhat oppressively to some people to tell them to stay in line or to shrink down. But another way of thinking about humility is about being the right size. So not too big, but also not too small. So for some people who are in maybe positions where they have more privilege or power, humility will mean right sizing down. But for other people, maybe historically who have been more marginalized or haven't had access to power or privilege, that means right-sizing up. Because if you know your strengths and your weaknesses, humility can really be a liberating virtue because it empowers us to take up the full space to which we're entitled. And so I think for some, the cell of humility requires us to overcome some of the negative myths that our culture has perpetuated about what it actually means to be humble. So to be humble means to do what? If I want to be more humble, I know it would help to know where you're starting from, but because to be humble means to do what?

So to be humble means to have an accurate assessment of ourselves and the world around us. So to see ourselves clearly, to accept information from the world around us clearly. It also means for us to seek feedback. And when we get that feedback, to restrain our natural desire to seek praise. So when somebody says, good job for something that we do at work, are we quick to accept all that praise or are we quick to share the acknowledgement and the credit with other people who made that happen? And then it also means considering the needs of other people. So rather than just making sure that I get my needs met by myself, how else can I meet the

needs of the people around us? What can I think about how my actions might affect other people? How can I work to take the perspective of those around us and to empathize with them? So to be humble really means a transformation of being centrally self-focused and moving toward being more other- oriented, considering the needs of other people and thinking about what I can do to improve the lives of those around me. So you just gave an example and that I think says something that I'd like you to comment on. And that is, you know, someone says, hey, nice job at work. And to be humble would be to share that, that that praise with the other people that were part of it. Well,

maybe no one else was part of it, so just take the compliment. And I think sometimes people get frustrated when people won't take a compliment. Oh, it was nothing. Oh, you know, that's people's idea of what it would mean to be humble is to kind of deflect. And that's somewhat irritating when people, you give someone a compliment and they don't just take it. Thank you. That was nice. Right. Absolutely. And I think what happens is when we do just deflect in that way, or we won't take the compliment, because a truly humble person would take the compliment. They would say, you know what? That's right. This really was my project and I worked on it and

I'm grateful. Thanks for recognizing that. And they're able to move on. But folks who would deflect and say, oh, really, it's really not that big of a deal. Sometimes what they're doing is they're wading into this false modesty. And oftentimes when people deflect or they're falsely modest, what they're actually doing is they're searching for even more compliments, or they're searching for even more affirmation. And we say, oh, it really wasn't that big of a deal. But imagine if you had a great professional achievement or some great accolade, and you say, well, it's not that really big of a deal. People who didn't receive that accolade, people who haven't had those achievements, they may feel even worse about themselves because you're invalidating this great

accomplishment that you just had. So it sometimes seems that being humble is in conflict with confidence, with charisma, that people like that you don't normally say, feel are humble. They're very confident, they're very outgoing, they're very charismatic. And you typically don't describe those people as humble, because they're not humble. Right. And I do think there is a bit of a perception that if one is to be confident, they can't be humble. But Collins wrote a book, Good to Great, I'm sure folks have heard of this book, where he talks about level five leadership. And among leaders, the best leaders are those that are not only hard driving, but can also be hard driving

with humility. And so humility sometimes also acts as a bit of a social oil. So it can take the edge off of situations where there's power differentials, or where the potential for conflict is really high. And so I'd like to suggest that people really can be confident and they can be humble. So I can be sure of both the things that I am good at and the things that I'm not that good at. Because if I'm aware of both my strengths and my weaknesses, I can realize the places where I should be putting my energy and effort and the areas where I need other people. I can't do it on my own. I need a team to help me. And so I'm not sure that that dichotomy is as accurate as it is perhaps just a perception.

Well, I guess it depends on your, what you think of as, as humble, but I, I think the word has gotten a relatively bad rap that, that to be humble is to be off to the side, that you don't toot your own horn, that you – in this world, you need to toot your own horn. Right. And that was – and I fully agree. And I acknowledge humility is a tough sell. hey, what you should do is you should embrace being humble, especially when we live in a culture saturated with self-promotion. In the idea that we are brands to be marketed or we are likes or we are retweets, that's a really tough place to be. researching just the more than decade long work of social scientists who have uncovered that there are numerous benefits of being humble. So people who are humble are reaping benefits in their relationships. Most people want to be in relationships with other people who are humble. It's a signal to them that they're likely to be treated well in a relationship. Research has found that leaders are more effective when they're humble. Workplaces are better when people embrace humility.

And critically, especially in this time in our culture, people who are humble are more likely and better able to get along with people who are different and with whom they disagree. And I think we need humility now more than ever. And although it may feel like a tough sell, I think it's critical and I think it's pivotal for us moving forward and making progress in our societies and healing our broken relationships. We are talking about the benefits and the power of being humble.

And my guest is Professor Daryl Van Tongeren. He is author of a book called Humble, Free Yourself from the Traps of a Narcissistic World. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Puntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly

about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Daryl, I recently went to an event, a high school reunion, but I had already seen your book before I went to this high school reunion. And so I was kind of, I had it in the back of my mind, or at least thought about it later. And the people at the reunion that I remembered from high school, the ones who were humble were still humble. And the ones who I would describe as maybe more narcissistic were just the way they were. And

my point being, it doesn't seem that these things are easily changed. I also noticed that both ends of the spectrum are attractive, that talking the the kind of the bravado guy who's got the the great stories and you know thinks it's all about him he's kind of interesting to listen to and then the humble people you know they're kind of nice to talk to as well that there seems to be room for everybody yeah you're you're spot on and i love that you pointed that out because i think your think your experience really does map on to what most people say. They say, we actually really do love the kind of the life of the party, the person who has the wild stories and can keep us enthralled and entertained.

And we also really do like the humble person who's a little bit more measured in their approach and can acknowledge that it's not all just about them. What research has found, which is rather intriguing, is that over time, though, it becomes a bit grating to be with the person with the narcissistic bravado. Because what researchers find is that it's tough to be in a relationship where that person who has all the wild stories and has all the interesting anecdotes, to be with them, eventually, they're going to be the ones who are ensuring it still is all about them. And it can be difficult to be in a relationship with them because over time, their antics become tiring. And what we realize is there's a lack of mutuality. There's a lack of

health in that relationship. And so at first blush, both pretty arrogant and pretty humble people are interesting and enjoyable to be around. But in the long run, humility tends to win the day. Yeah, good answer. But the it does seem that if everybody's humble, it could get a little dull that we need that guy. We need that guy. Yeah, absolutely. And I understand that, you know that if everybody were to be differential, if everyone were to be humble, perhaps to an extreme arrogant person, there is a risk for the humble person to be exploited. And I do think that is some of the hesitation people have into embracing humility. And I also think that our personalities can shine through in different ways while we still try to live our lives more humbly. And so I would hate for folks to think that humility simply means being an introvert or simply means having an uninteresting and dull life.

I'd rather think about it as a way in which we can engage ourselves and other people that moves us from the center and puts other people more on a mutual and equal footing. I think there's a sense that being humble is not a leadership quality. And if you have a bunch of humble people standing around trying to figure out where to go to dinner, they may never get to dinner because it's going to be, where do you want to go? Well, it doesn't matter much to me. You decide. Well, no, you know. You know what I mean? That being humble somehow means lacking an opinion or conviction.

And so humility, and I'm so glad that you highlighted this humility is not having no opinion. It's not having a lack of opinion, right? It's not a lack of an attitude or lack of values or a lack of ideology. It's more of how do you express it? How would you express your opinion? Is your opinion always the most important or the opinion that should be listened to? Is your opinion always the most important or the opinion that should be listened to? Is your attitude, the superior attitude in the room, at work, or among your friends? And when you interact with others, and there's a conflict, and there's a difference of opinion, attitude, or ideology, can you embrace those differences? Can you approach other people

with curiosity, instead of certainty? And do you realize that other people are bringing strength to the table because their differences enrich our lives? It would seem that if you're the life of the party guy and you somehow decided that you were going to be more humble, have more humility, so that you're not the life of the party guy, that people would be disappointed. We expect that from Bob. Bob's the life of the party. And look, now he's sitting over in the corner listening. And I don't want Bob to listen. I want to hear his story. Absolutely. And I'd like to believe that there's enough room for Bob Stoll to be the life of the party, but he can do it in a way that isn't all about him or isn't just simply about arrogant conceit.

But he can still be the life of the party. He can still include others to have them join him, and he can spread life throughout the party. So he's not the only life of the party, but others also are experiencing the life of the party. And I certainly love telling and hearing a good story too. But perhaps there are ways that we can do that where we can be true to our personality in a way that includes others and doesn't just center ourselves. Yeah, well, it certainly seems that there's an appropriate middle ground here. And your example about, you know, are you the person who always orders or chooses where to go

and orders for the table kind of thing, which can be very annoying, but so could the person on the other end of the scale who says, oh, I don't know, what should I order? Well, how would I know what you should order? You decide what to order. And by being so wishy-washy, which I think people associate with humility, is because you don't want to, you know, rock the boat, that that's just as annoying as Bob, and that maybe the middle is a better place to be.

I totally agree. I think there are ditches on either side of the road. And so far, we've been talking a lot about the ditch of arrogance. And I'm really glad you brought this up because the ditch on the other side of the road really is having no opinion or always deferring or like, as you said, just being so wishy-washy. And that's not really a place to live either. That's no more sense of security than the person who's arrogantly making it all about themselves. Humility really is the golden mean between the ditch of arrogance on one side and being overly deferential or wishy-washy on the other side. We should have attitudes and opinions, but humility is how we hold those. Perfect. And the benefit of doing that again is what? because you make a good case for it. But what would one hope to get by becoming more humble? I think there are a few benefits. The first is, when we accept ourselves and the world around us for for the way that it is, I think we have a more accurate view of the world. And we can actually make better decisions. So we're less clouded by our own

selfishness or the way we want to see the world, and we're just embracing it more as the way the world is. And we can be more effective, we can be more value-driven, and we can make decisions based on reality rather than the way we wish it would be. The second thing, and maybe the biggest area we see it, is we have better relationships. When people are more humble, they're more likely to partner with someone and be more satisfied in their relationship. Humble people are more committed, they're more forgiving. We're more likely to forgive and be more satisfied when our partner is humble. So really relationships thrive when humility is at the center. And then finally, we see effects in our communities and in our workplaces and among people around us.

So there's this cascading effect that when we embrace the world with humility and treat others humbly, it improves our work, it improves our communities, and hopefully it improves our societies. Don't you think, too, that how humble you are or how humble you're not, it can be very situational. There are just some times where you are the life of it. It's your party, so you're going to be the life of the party. And other times when you're, it's not appropriate. And so you are more curious. You are more humble.

Absolutely. Humility is situational. Some people can be arrogant at work and humble at home, or maybe they're arrogant at home and humble at work, maybe around certain people. Aspects of our personality are drawn out more and it's harder for us to be humble, whereas it's easier for us in other situations around other people. And so the very first interview I did on humility actually came across and felt very humiliating. I was very excited about this interview, but in order to take the interview, I had delayed a trip to the beach that my wife and I had been

planning for quite some time. And what should have been a 15 minute interview turned out to be more than an hour. And I left my wife waiting and she was ready to go. And at the end of the interview, the interviewer said, you know, I'd love to see whether or not someone who studies humility is actually humble. You know, would you be willing to ask your wife to rate you on a scale of one to 10 on how humble you are? And so I said, oh yeah, that's great. We concluded the interview. I come back home. I meet my wife and she's ready to go to the interview.

And I'd already kept her waiting. And I say, you know, actually, and I was training for a marathon at the time. I'd love to get in a training run. So I know that I've already made you late, but can I run and meet you at the beach? It's seven miles away. You can drive our stuff down there and you can set all of our stuff up and I'll just meet you there. By the way, the interviewer wanted to know how humble I was on a scale of one to 10. And my wife gave me a four, which looking back, pretty generous after all that I had just done and put her through.

I mean, not only had I delayed our time to the beach, then I had the nerve to say, by the way, can you schlep all of our stuff there so I can go on this run and, you know, kind of make it more about me. And so I think that highlights both the situational aspect of humility and also that someone who studies it and really tries to make it a priority, it can still be elusive for me and it's still a work in progress for me. Well, I have to admit, I haven't, until I saw your book, I haven't really thought much about this topic, but you've explained it so well and it really is much more, it's more interesting than I thought it would be. Daryl Van Tongeren has been my guest. He's an associate professor of psychology at Hope College and the name of his book is Humble, Free Yourself from the Traps of a Narcissistic World. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Daryl.

Appreciate you being here. Mike, thank you so much for having me on. It's really been a pleasure. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes,

Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. I think it's impossible to look up at the sky at night and not get a sense of wonder about what all those twinkling lights up there are. What is our place in all of this? How does it all work? Why are the stars up there? And how did they get there? Here to take us on a journey through the starry night sky and explain why we see what we see is Emily Levesque. She is a professor of astronomy at the University of Washington and author of the book, The Last Stargazers, The Enduring Story of Astronomy's Vanishing Explorers.

Hey, Emily. Hi, thanks for having me. Sure. So human beings have been looking up at the stars in the sky every night for as long as there have been human beings. But when did we first start to get a sense of what was really going on up there? So figuring out exactly what stars were and then doing things like distinguishing between stars and planets and explaining the moon really happened gradually. tools and were able to figure out the chemistry of the gas in a star and realize that stars really were glowing blobs of gas and that they had a chemical composition very different than our own planet. That was a surprising result only about 100 years ago. So it's been a really gradual

progression from look at the twinkly lights to really knowing the physics of how stars work. And do we pretty much know how stars work? So I'm a bad person to ask because as an astronomer, I very specifically study stars and I can list off all the things that still confuse us and puzzle us. But we do now have a pretty good picture of how stars work. And so how do they work? Where do they come from? So our basic picture is that a star is,

as you probably picture it, if you look at something like our sun, a big glowing ball of gas and at the cores of these stars in their centers, most stars are maintaining this very delicate balancing act between the inward press of their own gravity and outward force produced in almost every case by nuclear fusion going on in the star's core. So the star will be running a little nuclear reactor and fusing say hydrogen into helium or helium into carbon. And that fusion counteracts gravity and lets the star stay balanced and shine and sort of progress through its life. So people don't necessarily realize that stars are born and evolve and then die. So during their evolution, this balancing act is being maintained.

Is there a sense of when you say stars were born, like when I look up and I see stars, where did they come from and how did they get there? Yes. This is actually a great question because we've seen some beautiful pictures recently of stellar nurseries and newborn stars. So stars are born out of what we call molecular clouds. So they're clouds with a very specific sort of chemical composition, a very specific mass and size. And inside these clouds, little sub clumps of cloud material will start to

sort of collapse into themselves. And they collapse to the point where they become self-gravitating, where the center of that cloud gets so hot that you can actually kick off fusion. And stars will be born in clouds like this. Some of them are very massive, which means they live a relatively short amount of time and they stay in places like that. Some of them are smaller. They live much longer. The differences we're talking about are living millions of years with an M versus billions of years with a B. And those stars might wander a bit more, but we know that every star that we see was born from a cloud like that. So my sense is, and maybe it's my sense because it's kind of what I believe, that astronomy and looking at the stars and wondering what's up there, that, you know, over time, the pictures get a little better and we see a little further out into the galaxy, but that there's not a lot new or people don't really know, like, well, what are you looking for? I mean, it's just, it's like we keep looking further and further out, we get better and better

pictures, but where's this all going? Yeah, it's a fair question because I think probably most of your listeners have seen beautiful photos from the Hubble Space Telescope for years. Now much more recently, the James Webb Space Telescope has started releasing pictures and they're beautiful, but they look familiar. You kind of think, okay, well that's space. We've now figured out space. And what's really happening for astronomers is we are trying to answer these questions that sound almost philosophical more than scientific. We're trying to answer questions like, how did the universe begin? Or are we alone in the universe? And how will the universe end? And those questions sound very existential,

but we answer them in very concrete ways by studying how the universe is expanding, how galaxies move in the universe, the farthest way galaxies we can possibly see. So when we gain the ability to see farther across the universe or see farther back in time, we're directly gaining new puzzle pieces to try and answer questions like that. So it may seem like, oh, you know, you made a telescope a little bit sharper. How big of a deal is that? From the perspective of the science, it's an enormously big deal because we have such a new and more detailed perspective on trying to answer these questions that we've been grappling with for a long time. And so you just mentioned some things that maybe you need to go into a little more detail, like,

you know, how did the universe start? Where is it going? When will it die? And then you said, when we travel back in time. Wait, what? Yeah, so this is one of the things that is just fun and weird and brain bending to think about when we talk about astronomy,

because light has a speed limit. So if we are all sitting here on a hot summer day getting light from the sun, because light has just reached you that left the star 600 or 100 or 1,000 years ago. And if you take this to an extreme, if you're looking at galaxies that are very far away on the other side of the universe, the light we're seeing from those galaxies now is light that was emitted 13 billion years ago. So we're looking 13 billion years into the past. And it really means that stargazing is like time travel. The farther away an object is, the older the light is, because it's taken it so long to get to you.

So you're really traveling back in time and getting pictures of the early universe by studying objects like that. And people often have said, you know, when you look up at a star that is however many light years away, that that star might not even be there anymore. Yes. There's a couple infamous examples of that in the night sky where we have stars. One star that listeners might be familiar with is in the constellation Orion, which you can see in the wintertime. You find it by looking for the three stars in Orion's belt. One of the stars in Orion's shoulder is a star named Betelgeuse. And Betelgeuse is 645 light years away. And we also know that Betelgeuse is

the type of star that's getting ready to die. And there's a lot of speculation going, you know, did Betelgeuse, or sometime in the next 645 years, are we going to see the death of Betelgeuse and realize that it's been, you know, dead all along and we're just getting the light now? It's a very funny puzzle to think about and to consider how different the sky will look as sort of belated news of these sorts of stellar deaths reaches us. Are there any stars in the sky that, because I think most people have a sense that a star is a star,

and I sense you have a sense that's not true at all. That's probably not true. That there are some really interesting stars that for whatever reason stand out in your mind. I really like studying the biggest and most massive stars that we know about. So stars that are 10 times as massive, 20 times as massive as our sun. These are the stars that live relatively short lives. They live millions instead of billions of years. These are the stars that die

and make a supernova and leave behind something like a black hole. And I find these stars fascinating because you might think, well, okay, they're neat, but they're just big. But because and leave behind something like a black hole. And I find these stars fascinating because you might think, well, okay, they're neat, but they're just big. But because of their mass and because they're so extreme, they evolve very differently and then they produce something like a black hole that just bends our understanding

of how space and time works. So stars like that are the ones that particularly capture my attention as weird and interesting because they really represent this extreme of stellar evolution and stellar life and death. How far out can we see and get a good, I mean, given the size of the universe, how far have we gone and how likely are we to go a whole lot further given technology and the speed of light and all that? This is an excellent question to ask right now because we're in the midst of setting new records along those lines. When the James Webb telescope started sending back its first pictures just in the last couple of weeks, we started pinpointing galaxies that were, we were getting

light from these galaxies that was 13.1, 13.2 billion years old. And those are records for us. That's the farthest back in sort of the universe's history we've ever seen. And as my colleagues begin using this telescope and sort of deploying it to study the specific objects or questions that they have, we're going to keep breaking that record. So if anyone's interested in the record for, you know, the farthest away thing we've ever seen or the farthest back in time we've ever seen, keep an eye on the news because we're going to be breaking that record over and over again, I think, in the coming months. You mentioned a while ago, one of the questions we're looking at is, you know, are we alone? What is your sense? Don't specialize in this in my research. So most of my knowledge from this comes from talking to colleagues, but I have colleagues who head up

entire institutes devoted to what we call astrobiology. So understanding how biological life can form or exist or sustain itself elsewhere in the universe. My impression is that we most certainly have to have other planets that are supporting life of some kind. And whether life is microbes or whether life is intelligent civilizations is a very complicated but very real scientific question. But we've learned a great deal about what it takes to support life on another planet. We've learned that there are heaps and heaps of other planets that our current day telescopes can now study.

So I am fairly convinced that we're going to be finding life elsewhere in the universe and I hope I get to enjoy the excitement when that happens. You know, I've always wondered how much of your science of astronomy is thwarted, frustrated by weather. I mean, it's maybe an obvious question, but it seems like clouds are your worst enemy, because if you can't see in the sky, you can't see in the sky. Yes, clouds are often our nemesis when we're at a telescope, along with pretty much any type of sort of fussy weather. Because when astronomers apply to use a telescope, we submit an application just like other scientists apply for grant money. If the application is successful, we're assigned a night. We'll say

you have August 1st as your night on this telescope. And if it is cloudy on August 1st, there's nothing to be done because someone else has been assigned August 2nd. So we will hope desperately that nothing mechanical is broken on the telescope. These are very delicate, complicated instruments. We hope there's no clouds. We hope there's no rain when you can't even open the telescope because you don't want to pour water onto that very delicate scientific instrument. And we really keep our fingers crossed with the weather to make sure that it cooperates when it's time for us to gather some data. So you described pretty well how a star becomes a star, but how do planets become planets

and moons become moons? Where do they come from? We know that once a star has formed, it'll have a sort of disk around it. You can think of this sort of disk floating around. You can imagine it as around the equator of the star. And that disk will be made of gas and dust, and in some cases, maybe sort of icy material. And that gas and dust and ice will start to... Little particles or salts will collide with one another. And then larger particles will collide with larger particles. And eventually you wind up making what resembles a planet. And exactly how we build those planets and exactly how you make a planet

like Earth versus a planet like Jupiter is still very much something that astronomers are studying. But we know that over time, a star with a disc like that will have formed a planetary system. And then moons will form in a sort of similar but smaller way, or a planet's gravity can sort of capture or kidnap a passing asteroid or similar and turn that into a moon of its own. And we've seen cases of both of that right here in our own solar system. But the details of exactly how you go from little gas and dust building blocks to we made Earth are pretty complicated and still something we're studying. Well, one thing I think I've always wondered about is, and the way you describe it, it's dust and things just kind of plowing into each other. And then why are the planets so seemingly smooth and round?

And like, how do you would think it would be just a jagged mess of goo it sounds like it certainly but um these planets have had billions of years to form and over that time in which if you think about you know the gravity of these things pulling themselves together the shape that planets will often settle into is a circle simply because that's a very stable and gravitationally satisfying shape. So you will wind up with something like a nice round Earth or a nice round Jupiter. You might wind up with something like Saturn, which is a beautiful round planet with rings around it. So Saturn sort of has a mini disc like that of its own. And studying where the rings of

Saturn or the rings of Jupiter come from is a whole other area. But it comes from the extraordinarily long and slow process of actually forming these objects. It would seem that one of the barriers of studying far out into the universe or even the galaxy is the speed of light. It's the fastest anything can go, but because everything's so big, it still takes a long time for light to get where it needs to go. Do you think the laws of physics will ever be broken and that we'll be able to travel at warp speed? I think every astronomer would love to be able to travel through the universe at warp speed

because we'd all go zipping off to the objects that we're most interested in studying. But this seems to be a pretty hard physics speed limit. Now, there are topics that we love sort of exploring around the idea of wormholes and being able to sort of circumvent how space-time works. But at a basic level, the speed limit we're dealing with is the speed of light. And in fact, the way that we tend to travel the universe right now, we go at a snail's pace fraction of the speed of light. So when we're studying the rest of the universe, the speed of light doesn't even really impact our travel possibilities. It impacts our observational possibilities and what we can see.

So for the immediate future, when we think about exploring the universe at light speed, we're doing that through telescopes and we're doing that through observations. Lastly, since your book is about astronomers, the people that do this, maybe an unfair question, but if you had to pick a favorite, who is your favorite astronomer from the past and why? Oh, it's very hard to pick a favorite. And I really had fun exploring how the job of astronomers has changed over the years. One astronomer that I particularly enjoyed writing about was Vera Rubin. And I was very lucky enough to have, I was lucky to have the chance to meet her once. And then I heard so many people tell me stories about her. She was the first woman to observe under her own

name on the biggest telescope in California. This was in 1965, a lot later than I think people might imagine. She broke down a lot of barriers in astronomy for other women to participate. And most notably, what she is famous for is she's known for discovering the evidence for dark matter. So this weird, mysterious matter that has gravity. It clearly interacts with things gravitationally, but it doesn't interact with light. And writing about Vera Rubin and her experiences at telescopes and then her just field changing discovery. I mean, from Vera Rubin finding the first evidence for dark matter to today, we now have people building entire careers on tiny sub questions of dark matter because of her discovery. So she was a fascinating person to learn about. And I mean, the impact she had on the field, there's very few people in history period that you can think of who changed our picture of the universe in the way that she did. we hear about an astronomer discovered something in outer space i always wonder like is it luck of

the draw that he happened to be looking through the telescope at that particular time and that's why and and if another astronomer was looking through the telescope at that time they would have discovered it too or is it just is it way more complicated than that oh this is a fantastic question and i think it's something a lot of people wonder. When I tell people I'm observing at a telescope, they'll sometimes ask, you know, oh, is anything new happening in the sky tonight? Or they think I just go to a telescope and wait and stare at a fairly static looking night sky waiting for something new to happen. And very occasionally, that'll be the case. And we'll be surprised by something cool

that appears in the night sky. But in the vast majority of cases, something is discovered because somebody is looking for it really hard. When we discovered what we think was the first example of these Thorne-Zitkov objects, these stars with quantum-supported cores, we went looking for them, and we actually had a careful list of if a star works like this, we should see this, this, and that, and observed a lot of stars to see if we found any evidence for it. In the case of Vera Rubin, she was studying galaxies that moved differently than she expected. And after eliminating all other explanations, after making sure there were no mistakes, there was nothing that hadn't been properly accounted for. The remaining explanation was dark matter. So that's how a lot of discoveries happen. I think the quote you'll hear sometimes around this is that the most exciting sound in science isn't, you know, Eureka, or my God, something cool happened. It's, well, that's weird. This is strange. We should try to explain this odd thing that we found.

And the discoveries come out of those odd explanations. Well, thank you for the star tour. You know, I think it's impossible to look up at the stars at night and not be fascinated by what you see. And so it's good to get some understanding of what's going on up there light years away. I've been speaking with Emily Levesque. She is a professor of astronomy at the University of Washington, and her book is called The Last Stargazers, The Enduring Story of Astronomy's Vanishing Explorers. And there's a link to that book in the show notes.

Thank you for being here, Emily. Thank you. If you walk around in flip-flops or sandals, you're also walking in germs. Philip Tirno, author of Secret Life of Germs, says when you're walking on the street in any shoe that exposes your toes, you're actually slogging through, it's just gross, human waste, dog waste, vomit, just all kinds of things that have been brewing in the hot summer sun. Of course, you're better off not exposing your skin to all those horrors because you'll drag that stuff in the house, but that's no fun. So just remember to wash your feet when you get home after you've been prancing around in public in strappy or flappy footwear.

And that is something you should know. You know what's cool is if you leave a rating and review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or one of the other podcast platforms after, I guess, it gets approved or whatever, you can actually see your own name and review up on whatever platform you leave it on. You're famous for at least a little while. So please leave us a rating and review. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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