Something You Should Know - The Powerful Benefits of Nostalgia & Why Games Are More Than Just Fun - SYSK Choice

Starting point is 00:00:00 Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at pceexpress.ca. Today on something you should know, does birth order really determine parts of your personality? Maybe. Then, nostalgia, looking back fondly on the past. It can be beneficial.

Starting point is 00:00:30 Turns out that nostalgia makes you feel younger than you are, especially after around the age of 40. And that ability to time travel backwards actually helps us deal with our anxieties about the future. Also, how to keep your cat out of your Christmas tree. And the games people play from Tick-Tac-Tow, Chess, Backgammon, and our love-hate relationship with Monopoly. I think this is a highly flawed game and I'm really not quite sure why it's become a everyone's game of choice, for example, at holiday times, very quickly you realize who's going to win, and then you spend hours just grinding out the bankruptcy of all the other players. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:02:22 and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello there. Welcome to something you should know. I suspect that you've heard something about the birth order theory, that where you fall in the birth order with your siblings has something to do with your personality. The idea that birth order is a thing was developed by Alfred Adler, an Austrian psychotherapist in the early 1900s.

Starting point is 00:02:54 He proposed that the birth order position in which a child is born significantly affects their personality and life outcomes, including career and educational success. However, in more recent years, the theory has come under some scrutiny. For example, a 2015 review found that firstborn children had higher levels of intellect than children in other birth order positions, but the researchers found no difference between firstborn children and others in terms of broader personality traits, like extroversion, emotional stability, or imagination. A 2015 study of U.S. high school students found no statistically significant association

Starting point is 00:03:38 between birth order and intelligence or any other personality traits. Now, other studies do support the idea that firstborns have some things in common, specifically that firstborns are more likely to be leaders and have personality traits such as persistence and emotional stability. So there may be something to the birth order theory, but it may not be as rock-solid as a lot of people believe. And that is something you should know. We are getting deep into the holiday season as this episode goes out,

Starting point is 00:04:16 and it's a time when people get nostalgic and long for people and places and times gone by, Christmas's gone by. Some people are more nostalgic than others, but I suspect it's human nature to look back fondly on times from the past, and maybe even wish you could go back. But it also makes you wonder, why do we do this? What does being nostalgic do for you? Because when you long for something you cannot have, it can make you sad. Yet there's something about being nostalgic that can be quite comforting and satisfying.

Starting point is 00:04:52 What you may not know is nostalgia is something people, study, and one of the people who studies it is Clay Rutledge, Ph.D. His work has been featured in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, CBS, and he's author of a book called Passed Forward, How Nostalgia Can Help You Live a More Meaningful Life. Hey, Clay, welcome to something you should know. Thanks for having me on. So I've been told more than once that I'm a fairly nostalgic person, and I know what it means to be nostalgic, but as somebody who studies it, how do you define nostalgia? If you look at nostalgia in an online dictionary, you'll find a definition that's something like

Starting point is 00:05:36 a wistful or sentimental longing for the past, which gives you a good taste of what nostalgia is, but really there's a deeper understanding of nostalgia, a deeper experience of nostalgia. And I think of, I think the best way to define it is to think about it as two things. One, as kind of an emotion. So nostalgia is a lot. a feeling like it's a sentiment like it pulls out our hearts right but it's also cognitive right it's about memories so it when we have when we experience the feeling of nostalgia it doesn't it's not just an emotion it usually directs us towards thinking about specific experiences from our life so it's that combination of emotion and cognition um that's really about our cherished

Starting point is 00:06:17 memories i've heard it said and i subscribe to this theory that one of the reasons that nostalgia is so comforting and satisfying is that it is in essence set in stone. Looking back on the past, the past is done. It can't change. Nothing can go wrong. Whatever you remember, you remember, whereas the future is uncertain. And so to look back at the past, that feels pretty good. Yeah, there's this concept called fading affect bias, which is just how happens to me, and this is probably built into us for a good reason. happens to be that negative experiences tend to fade from our memory faster than positive ones. So it's easier to remember the good thing. So you might have an experience where at the time

Starting point is 00:07:07 you like, oh, I'm never going to do this again. And then something good comes out of it. And then later you forget. Women will often say this, you know, going through a pregnancy, right? They'll be like never again. And then many of them, of course, do. Because, you know, the end result is something that brings them a great deal of joy. So you talk about the science of nostalgia, which you know, I've never heard that expression. I don't think of nostalgia as something that you would normally study scientifically. It's just kind of a feeling and a thought that people have. So what is the science of nostalgia? So nostalgia actually is a really, really long and pretty wild history where it was once considered a brain disease and a mental illness. And, you know, of course, we don't

Starting point is 00:07:54 think of nostalgia that way in the modern world. Our views of nostalgia are really more shaped by marketing, advertising, you know, more consumer culture where we think of entertainment, where we think of nostalgia is kind of just fun thing. Like it's a retro aesthetic or a type of entertainment that kind of brings us back to youth and childhood. And though that's certainly true, what we've discovered through over 25 years of research now is that there's a lot more going on than just fun when we experience nostalgia, that we often turn to nostalgic memories when we're going through a difficult time in life, and we're stressed, when we're lonely, when we're sad, when we're doubting the meaningfulness of our lives. And these memories help reconnect us to

Starting point is 00:08:38 things that we have found fulfilling and meaningful. And that serves as a reminder that even that we're going through a tough time right now, the life is bigger than this one moment. And it's actually full of very fulfilling experiences that can guide us forward, that can can not only offer us comfort in the present, but can help us figure out what we want to do next to improve our situation. And so we've been doing these studies for, you know, like I said, for, you know, over 25 years now where we've tried to isolate, like, the causes and the effects of nostalgia. Like what makes people nostalgic, when they are nostalgic, what kind of effect does it have on their mental life and also on their behavior? And what we've generally

Starting point is 00:09:18 found is, yes, nostalgia is fun. And you can have like a lighthearted nostalgic experience. as many as it often do when we listen to old music or watch old TV shows and movies. But really, there's a deeper layer to nostalgia that helps us navigate the world when we're uncertain and when we are distressed. It helps us kind of like find a path forward, find the courage, the motivation, the hope, and the focus to move forward with purpose. So I think, you know, we all know that some people are more nostalgic than others. And, you know, some people are probably more nostalgic this time of view.

Starting point is 00:09:53 year than other times of year. But what is the snapshot of nostalgia? How big a deal is it? Definitely it's the case that nostalgia like other psychological characteristics does have what you might think of as kind of a personality dimension. And that is there are some people that are highly nostalgic and some people that are not nostalgic that much at all. And not a lot of us are somewhere in between. The average person tends to be somewhat nostalgic though and have nostalgic experiences, you know, multiple times a month, if not multiple times a week. And some of these are things that aren't coming from within us. They're just our environment is littered with opportunities to feel nostalgic because

Starting point is 00:10:35 we get on social media and we see old photos. We watch commercials where they're using retro-themed marketing. We go through our phone and look at our own, you know, look at all the photos we've collected. So there's lots of cues in the environment that make us, you know, that trigger nostalgia in all of us. But there are definitely some people who are very driven by their nostalgic sentiment. And is there any sense of what those people tend to have in common besides that? Do they tend to be more male or female or anxious or non-anxious? Or what else do they have in common besides their longing for the past?

Starting point is 00:11:14 So people who are high in what we call nostalgia proneness, which is that the personality trait we're talking about, do tend to score higher on neuroticism, which is a personality trait that's really like trait anxiety and worry. So people who worry a lot, who are anxious a lot tend to be more nostalgic. What's interesting about that is that that actually lines up quite well with research showing that all of us tend to become more nostalgic when we're anxious. So it makes sense, because nostalgia comforts us. So it makes sense that people who are dispositionally more anxious would be dispositional.

Starting point is 00:11:50 positionally, more nostalgic as well, that, you know, they use that resource more frequently. It turns out people are high, and spirituality also tend to be more nostalgic, regardless of their level of anxiety. And, you know, this is a fairly recent finding that spirituality is associated with nostalgia. But in addition to that, what we find is that people in a family, and it usually is women, not always, but it's more often women than men. People in a family who have taken on the role of like the keeper of the family memories, the keeper of the family traditions, the person who creates the photo of the albums that sends out the birthday cards. So the people who do that tend to use nostalgia more, regardless of whether they have a kind of a personality

Starting point is 00:12:38 disposition towards nostalgia. What about what I was saying earlier? Because when I remember hearing this, it just struck me as being right that one of the reasons to, you know, to go back in the past in your head and be nostalgic is because it is so safe, that nothing, you know, what happened, happened, it's all done. Whereas the future is unknown and that, you know, next Christmas could be a disaster, but 10 Christmases ago was wonderful. That's definitely true. And related to that, when we feel uncertain or when we're worried about the uncertainty

Starting point is 00:13:12 of the future, that often triggers us to be nostalgic because we want that sense of security and safety. And so, yeah, I think, I think one way to think about nostalgia is, you know, across our life, we're collecting all these experiences. And like you said, they've already happened. They're already kind of locked in. But what, but another thing that happens is over time, not only has the experience already happened that, you know, it can't change, but we've had more time to interrogate it,

Starting point is 00:13:43 to make sense of it, to weave it into our life story in a way that's meaningful. to us. Another way to think about it is like making a movie, right? You can record a bunch of footage for a film. You've got this raw footage. No one's going to watch that. That's an unwatchable movie. But what you do to make a good movie is you edit it, right? You put it together in a fashion that still tells a compelling story, but does it in a way that, you know, kind of makes sense and as, you know, with our kind of storytelling nature. And so I'm not saying like we're doing that exactly because our memories aren't like accurate necessarily like a hundred percent accurate representations like capturing like a film would be but in a way

Starting point is 00:14:28 that's what we're doing we're kind of pulling out of our memories the specific scenes that we think really capture what we find meaningful what we find important about our life story and we're weaving that together into our overall life narrative we're talking about nostalgia and our longing for the good old days. My guest is Clay Rutledge. He's author of a book called Past Forward, how nostalgia can help you live a more meaningful life. Snap up Ancestry DNA's lowest price ever in our incredible cyber sale. With 50% off ancestry DNA kits, it's the perfect time to help a loved one unwrap the past. And with their latest update, they'll discover their family origins like never before, with even more

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Starting point is 00:16:17 Most of the time, it's highly social. So typically nostalgic memories involve other people. Though we also do care about place, but the place is usually connected to the people. So people are very nostalgic about vacations they went on, for instance. But usually it's because it was a special trip they took with their family or they took with a loved one. And so a lot of our nostalgic memories, even though they're about, even though they seem like they're rooted in place, that place is really rooted in people. It does seem to me that nostalgia, those feelings of nostalgia and those memories that you

Starting point is 00:16:59 go back to have three components to them, people, places and time. And so recently I had the chance to go back to my old childhood home. And I was looking forward to that being a nostalgic person. I was really kind of looking forward to going back into my old house. And it was fun to go in. It was pretty cool to see my old house. I remember this and I remembered that. And I remember what happened in that room and things like that.

Starting point is 00:17:32 But because it was just the place and there were no people, that I remembered from back then, and it wasn't at that time because it was in present day. It didn't have the magic that a nostalgic memory has because it didn't have the people and the time element. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I mean, people really do breathe life into the nostalgic experience. And even when we do things like collect, right?

Starting point is 00:18:02 So a good example is like objects that people collect. on the surface that seems almost like a very materialistic nostalgia like why do you why does anyone collect antique dishes or vinyl records or you know all the things that people collect but if you dig a little bit deeper if you talk to these people what you'll find out is those those objects really are symbols their connection points to relationships you know i talked to this one journalist who you know was collected these antique dishes that her mom actually tried to pass down to to her. But at the time when she was a young woman, she thought these were like dishes for old ladies and she didn't want anything to do with them. And then her mom passed and she really

Starting point is 00:18:45 missed her mom. And like so she went on this campaign to find, you know, to go shop for all these old antique dishes and, you know, and kind of reboot the collection. And it wasn't because, you know, she cared about the dishes per se as because dishes were a connection to her mom, you know, to that relationship. Those memories that we long for, seem to be, to some degree, random. Like, we didn't know at the time this was going to be such a great memory, but now it comes up a lot. Like, can you forecast what you're going to find to be nostalgic later on? There's some recent research that shows that if you're trying to cultivate future nostalgic memories to really savor an experience, you know, people were encouraged to savor experiences anyway.

Starting point is 00:19:33 But it turns out the more we really savor something, the more likely we are to feel nostalgic about it. And these nostalgic memories tend to be more vivid. In addition to that, something I think that's really cool about humans is actually kind of the reason I started studying nostalgia so many years ago was our capacity to mentally time travel. I just thought that was really neat of how we're, as far as we know, we're the only organism that really doesn't just live. in the moment. Like we think deeply about the future. Like we imagine all sorts of things that could happen in the future. Sometimes that, you know, motivates us that drives us to move forward to pursue goals that we know will take some time and chat and it will take some, you know, a lot of hard work to realize. But it also causes anxiety because the future is uncertain and the one certainty that

Starting point is 00:20:25 exists in the future is not a great one, which is our mortality. But in addition to that, we can time travel backwards and you know and that ability to time travel backwards turns out actually helps us deal with our anxieties about the future because we can go back in the past and we can kind of draw on those memories and experiences to give us comfort and motivation and guidance but also that means you know as you're pointing out it makes it feel like we are actually getting in a time machine like no time has passed like I just you know showed up in this place and it's just like oh like I remembered this quite well I just think that's a that's a really cool aspect of of the human brain is our ability to do this.

Starting point is 00:21:04 Is there any reason to believe that people who are not nostalgic, particularly, that if they were more nostalgic, there would be any benefit, or you just are where you are on the spectrum, and that's fine? I think that people would get more benefit, but I'll back up a little and first say, I'm not I'm not super convinced that people who say they aren't nostalgic aren't and what I mean by that is yes there is a personality trait like some people are naturally more nostalgic than others as we talked about but in addition to that it seems like a lot of people are not you know another issue might be they're just not as in touch with the nostalgia so maybe some people who are nostalgic a lot really understand that and they appreciate it And, you know, here's one, you know, one quick story. I had this colleague years ago. And when I was doing this research and he was like, I just don't get it.

Starting point is 00:22:05 Like I just, I guess some people get a lot of nostalgia, but I'm just not a nostalgic person. And he was saying this and I was standing in his office. And he had all this like Chicago, like sports memorabilia all around his, you know, office. And he'd always talked about growing up in Chicago, he would sometimes fly home to see games. And, you know, a lot of his life, as far as I could tell, was very much rooted in nostalgic feelings, but he just didn't see it. Like, he wasn't in touch with his nostalgia.

Starting point is 00:22:35 So I think that's one issue is that some people who say they're not nostalgic might actually be more nostalgic than they realize. And maybe it would be useful for them to, you know, kind of learn more about, learn more about that. But beyond that, yeah, I think, I think like a lot of things that are good for people, like exercise, some people just do it. Some people like exercise, but even the people who don't like exercise, you know, actually do benefit from going to the gym even if they don't like it. So I think nostalgia is kind of that way.

Starting point is 00:23:06 Even the people who aren't naturally pulled to it or don't think they are would actually benefit from engaging in it more. Is there a sense as to what time of life or how long ago people tend to long and go back to? I'm not nostalgic for six months ago, I mean, because it's just six months ago. But my childhood maybe, is there a sweet spot there? So in general, we do tend to be more nostalgic, the farther we are away from something, both in time and space. And so I think what that means, at least in part, is things that we do a lot or that we, you know, that are sort of routine. teens or that you know we're experience all the time are less likely to feel nostalgic for it because we have them you know we're experiencing them right now like we don't need to pull them out of our

Starting point is 00:24:06 memory of things so the further away we are from something in time and space and the more nostalgic we are for it in addition to that people do tend to be um especially nostalgic for their um childhood adolescent sort of teenage years explain what you mean by when you are nostalgic it can affect your perception of how old you are or at least how old you feel you have a biological age you know your age but oftentimes we don't really feel our age like depending on what's going on like we could be going through a sickness and we might actually feel older than we are we could be dealing with a major transition or having you learn new technology and that can make us feel older than we are but oftentimes people feel younger

Starting point is 00:24:52 than they are too. And it turns out that nostalgia makes you feel younger than you are, especially after around the age of 40 or so, that seems to be the sweet spot that we found across the number of studies, is that once you turn 40, if you engage in nostalgic reflection, it makes you feel young again. Well, what I enjoy about nostalgia is when you engage in it, when you kind of go back in time and remember those times and those people, it kind of brings it all back to life, if only for a short time and only in your head. But it's kind of nice to, you know, see those people again and visit those places again. I've been speaking with Clay Rutledge.

Starting point is 00:25:35 He is author of a book called Passed Forward, How Nostalgia Can Help You Live a More Meaningful Life. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Clay. Thanks so much, Mike. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. When you're flying Emirates business class, sampling our range of vintage wines from the largest selection in the skies, you'll see that your vacation isn't really over until your flight is over. Fly Emirates, fly better. Do you ever find yourself lying in bed and your brain then decides this is the perfect time to remind you of everything? And then your brain starts racing and you start thinking and sleep seems impossible.

Starting point is 00:26:19 This is why I really like Catherine Nikolai's podcast called Nothing Much Happens. It's simple, it's soothing, and it works. Each episode is just a calm, cozy bedtime story. There's no drama, nothing intense, nothing to follow, you don't have to write anything down. It's just simple repetition and these really peaceful sensory details that give your brain permission to settle down and go to sleep. Millions of people use it as part of their nighttime routine. and I totally get why. They recently did a story I love called The Guest Room.

Starting point is 00:26:54 It was all about, you know, clean sheets and fresh towels and those things I love that helped me sleep. You really should try it tonight when you go to bed. You really should try it tonight when you go to bed. You can listen to Nothing Much Happens wherever you get your podcasts. Episodes every Monday and Thursday. We like games. I mean, think of all the games you've played in your lifetime, board games,

Starting point is 00:27:23 playground games, sports, card games, gambling, rock paper, scissors, tic-tac-toe. We love games. But why? By their nature, games are fun, but many games are not much more than that. So why are they so important to us? Here to talk about games and why we love them is Marcus de Sotoi. Marcus is an award-winning mathematician, a professor at Ours. Oxford. He's been a guest here before, and he's author of a book called Around the World

Starting point is 00:27:53 in 80 Games. Hey, Marcus, welcome. Welcome back. It's great to be with you again. So why games? I mean, clearly we like them, but why do you study them? Well, I think, like many people, I love playing games, and actually I think it's something that our species loves doing. Some people have even suggested we should be called homo-ludens, the playing species, rather than homo sapiens. the thinking species, because I think actually we've used games throughout our history to kind of almost experiment with trying things out before we put them into reality.

Starting point is 00:28:31 And I think that's why games have always been part of our kind of evolutionary development. But games are played with other people. So I think that's also a very important role that they play. They help you to understand the mind of the other as you share time together. In fact, I've just come back from India and I discovered that people use games at the beginning of a marriage when often they don't know each other because it's an arranged marriage and games are a lovely way of getting to know each other. Well, there's also, I've always thought there's also something very human about wanting victory and avoiding defeat and that there's some pleasure in that that games inherently provide. It's interesting because I think we make this safe space where we can exercise our love of competition, yet it is a safe space. And when we come out of it, somehow we're still friends.

Starting point is 00:29:26 And I think that's why it's a very games play, that very useful role of being somewhere where we can experiment with things, experiment with being competitive. So when I think of board games, you know, just games you play with people, I think of, you know, monopolies. and Scrabble and those kind of classic board games. And they must be classic because people seem to like them, although it seems like there's a lot of people that don't like Monopoly because it takes so long. Yes, exactly. I think this is a highly flawed game,

Starting point is 00:29:59 and I'm really not quite sure why it's become everyone's sort of game to go to their game of choice, for example, at holiday times. And as you say, it takes so long. And what I think is really flawed about this game is that very quickly you realize who's going to win and then you spend hours just grinding out the bankruptcy of all the other players. In fact, I actually found out about a story of five students who were playing this game and it went on for so long that actually the bank went bankrupt and they contacted the game developers and said, well, what do we do if the bank has no money?

Starting point is 00:30:35 And they put a security guard with loads of Monopoly money in the back and delivered it to the students and said, no, the bank can't go bankrupt. You've got to carry on. And after five days, the students gave up and said, look, this is just going around in circles. We've already got in the Guinness World Book of Records. We're going to stop now and just call it a draw. Is there a strategy in Monopoly that if you do this, you're more likely to win? Or is it really more chance? well there is obviously elements of chance because of the dice but yes there is a strategy the most

Starting point is 00:31:09 visited square on the monopoly board is the jail square because there are many ways to go to jail you can just land because of the dice or the square opposite sends you to jail or you chance cards can send you to jail or actually if you throw three doubles very unfairly i think you get sent to jail but um but you can't buy jail so how can that be useful but then you're throwing two dice and what's the most common throw of two dice well it's a score of six seven or eight because there are so many different ways to make that combination whilst if you think 12 well there's only one way to do that you've got to get a six and a six so out of jail people are very often landing in the orange regions of properties and so my tip is to buy those orange

Starting point is 00:31:56 properties stack them with hotels and then as everyone comes out of that very visited jail square. They land on your properties and you cash in. So there's my little mathematical tip for you. I didn't know. If you roll three doubles, you go to jail? Yeah. If you throw a double, you get to go again. But for some reason, they decided if you get three, then they penalize you, which I think, you know, after such great luck, you should get a special prize, not get sent to jail. What's the game if there is a game that has been around for the longest time that we still play? I'm guessing something like chess or checkers or something like that those are ancient games um chess has its origins in india but i would actually go back further that um one of the very first board games which is actually in the

Starting point is 00:32:46 british museum in london it's nearly five thousand years old it's called the royal game of orr and this is a racing game uh where new race counters round this beautiful um board laid with lots of beautiful shells and things. Now, we don't play that now, but it actually probably gave rise to the game of Batgammon. And I would say Batgammon, which again is a kind of racing game where, you know, it's a two-player game with black and white pieces, which you try and race around and you can capture your other players' pieces if they're on their own involving dice again. That probably has its origins in this 5,000-year-old game. And that's certainly one that's played today. And I think that is almost for me, you know, having looked at all of these wonderful games across the

Starting point is 00:33:36 world, I think Backgammon almost is the perfect game because it's got this lovely balance of, yeah, chance, so anybody really could possibly win the game. Yet there is strategy involved as well. You don't want pure chance. You want a way to express yourself. It's got very simple rules. You can really learn this game just in two minutes of someone explaining it to you. Yet it gives rise to such complexity. There are so many sort of different games that emerge out of it. So for me, I think those are qualities that I'm looking for in a really good game, and I think backgammon passes all of them. Talk about the math of tic-tac-toe. Tick-tac-toe, yes. I mean, what you're quite often interested in is, is there a strategy which

Starting point is 00:34:20 can guarantee you a win? And a lot of games we've analyzed as mathematicians, we do see that, For example, if you go first in Connect 4, there's an algorithm which ensures you can get four counters in a row. Tic-Tac-toe is a very simple version of that. And although you can't necessarily guarantee a win, you can make sure you never lose. And so if you were to go first in Tic-Tac-Toh, where would you go? I would certainly choose either the middle or one of the diagonal extreme points. From both of those points, you can certainly guarantee that you will not lose. And so I think both of those have an algorithm which gives them a best strategy.

Starting point is 00:35:00 You will lose if you go in the middle of the row or the column. That is a losing first go. Have you thought much about like, you know, there are games that are really popular. People really like them. And then they kind of fade out. I mean, I remember backgam and people still play it. But it used to be like amazingly popular. And now it's, yeah, people.

Starting point is 00:35:26 you probably have a backgammon set somewhere in your house, but you probably haven't played it in a long time. Games kind of come and go. Is it just, you know, that's just the way people are? I think that games are actually quite like stories. And just in the same way as, you know, there'll be a novel of the moment and people will want to read that. I think games have a similar quality. And I think we're in a really golden age of games where there are, each year, they're just such exciting new developments in board games and kind. games that I think there's quite fierce competition out there and you know one of the power houses of game development these days is Germany and in Germany they insist on the game developers name being on the the box because they sort of feel that they are a bit like an author you know people look out for the for the next game by particular people like they'll look for the next

Starting point is 00:36:20 Stephen King novel even if people have a backgammon board in their house I would recommend going back to that game because it is an absolutely beautiful game and I think that's the reason it has lasted so long. The same with chess and if you go to the far east a game like Go played on the 19 by 19 grid with black and white stones again very simple rules yet wonderfully complex outcomes when you play that game. You say chess is from India how long ago and a game like chess do the rules ever change or are they the same rules today as they were and I'd like to know whenever it started. That is a wonderful question because games do constantly evolve.

Starting point is 00:37:04 We now do believe that the game started in India, probably middle of the previous millennium, and we're probably talking 700, 800, but it was a very early game then. It didn't have a queen, for example, so it just had an advisor, which moved very small steps, a bit like the king. The queen is actually a European development.

Starting point is 00:37:25 element. And we recognize that chess is imitating warfare. And in the past, warfare was really hand-to-hand combat. But as weaponry sort of got better, you were able, for example, to shoot a long bow at a large distance across a battlefield. And so you start to see pieces that could only move a few steps, suddenly being allowed to sweep across the board. Things like the bishop. It's strange. Actually, the bishop was modeled on what was an India, a piece which represented an elephant. And when this piece came to Europe, the elephant's tusks people thought looked like the hat of the bishop. So in fact, that was an elephant charging around and it weirdly became a bishop. But one really curious fact that I discovered

Starting point is 00:38:15 about chess, two facts actually. First of all, it was a four-player game. Now that really surprised me, but then I began to understand, yes, well, actually, in your army, you've got two cards. apostles, two knights, two bishops. And what happened is that you would capture somebody else's army and it would double up your army. So it went from a four then to a two-player game. But second really curious thing is that you used to involve a dice. So you would throw a dice, which would determine which piece you were allowed to move. But when gambling was banned in India, you weren't allowed to use a dice. And so I think the game player said, well, you know, or we could actually choose which piece we want to move,

Starting point is 00:38:56 and it became the pure strategy game we know today. I've always wondered if there is some sort of connection between chess and checkers only because they're played on the same board, and they're really the only games played on that board. So why is that? Yes, I mean, chess is very interesting because it's probably the first game that emerged where different pieces on the board could do different things.

Starting point is 00:39:22 games before chess like in checkers there's really no difference between the pieces that just where they are they all move in a very similar way so so this was a real new innovation when it came to developing chess and of course chess it does seem that it did emerge out of the idea that somebody planning a war it's quite useful to just see the implications if you move pieces around in the territory what might happen if you move part of your army here what might they respond with and and to develop tactics so a lot of games for centuries have been war games which allowing people to actually rehearse war before they actually sacrifice lives on the field but are they related other than the board that they play on well checkers there are many

Starting point is 00:40:18 very early versions of games like checkers actually that appear all across the world so um there you find sort of versions in africa in south america that this idea of having some sort of board on which these things are moving and that the idea that you can leap over things and take them actually is quite a universal idea so uh that that might have been what just developed from because people had started to see this sort of game play and perhaps wanted to make it a richer game. And so therefore, these pieces which were just doing the same thing, suddenly evolved characters, their castles, their kings, their bishops. So yes, I would say that chess definitely does emerge out of the idea of Chequers. But Chequers is interesting because it really is a game

Starting point is 00:41:10 which has been rediscovered many times in different forms across the world. You mentioned Scrablin, and that's one of those games that I've always been interested in because there are some people who are really good at Scrabble and seemingly you're all kind of on the same playing field here

Starting point is 00:41:27 you get the letters you get or the letters you get yet some people are able to just do amazing things with those letters and what is that what is the strategy of Scrabble other than to you know let me try to make a word here I think that a lot of sort of humanities students

Starting point is 00:41:45 think that are at last a game which doesn't involve any mathematics in is all about being a fantastic wordsmith and I'm very sad to tell anyone out there who believes that actually this is a highly mathematical game at heart and there are really good strategies which

Starting point is 00:42:01 people have developed. First of all you have to learn all the two letter words because that's how you can actually squeeze some clever things into the board and actually really crank up your score because you're getting sort of multiple words out of laying just one word down. The other thing that people who become world champion

Starting point is 00:42:22 at Scrabble often do is to learn seven and eight letter words with common letters, because those are going to give them the chance to get out in one go and earn that 50-point bonus. I found a story, actually, which was one of the world champions in Scrabble in the English language. He was actually from New Zealand. And he said, you know, really, I think this is not. nothing to do with language and all to do with the kind of algorithms and mathematics and scoring. So he decided to enter himself to the French Scrabble Championship and he implemented the way he played Scrabble. He didn't speak a word of French and he became French Scrabble world champion. So that really gives the lie to the fact that it's all about linguistics and language.

Starting point is 00:43:06 It's actually all about strategy, maths, counting, scoring and knowing some basic good batch of words which can really help you to play the game. That sounds impossible. How could you be the world champion French stravel player and not speak French? Yes, it's quite staggering. In fact, even in the English language, it turned out that one year, two Indonesians were world champion that year, and that certainly was not their first language, English. So it really does seem to be not about the words, but about the scoring. Rock paper, scissors. Is there a secret to that? Yes, there is. I in fact implemented this once on a visit to America where I took part in a rock paper scissors championship in Philadelphia. And the key here is actually something very close to what mathematics is about because I often call mathematics the science of patterns. You're often looking for patterns. And if you could spot a pattern, that allows you to sort of predict things into the future. And this is the key to playing rock paper scissors because very often humans, just can't stop putting patterns into everything they do. So when they're playing rock paper

Starting point is 00:44:20 scissors, they'll often unconsciously, for example, follow rock by paper. And if you can spot that pattern, it's going to give you an edge in playing this game. But conversely, it's very important that you don't have any patterns yourself. So that's the key to how I play is to try and randomize my choices of rock, paper, or scissors so nobody can spot a pattern. So here I'm going to let you into my secret. I use the decimal expansion of pi, which we believe is random in nature. And so if the decimal expansion starts 1, 2, 3, that's rock. If the next is 4, 5, 6, that'll be paper, 7, 8, 9, that's scissors, and 0, I just choose anything. So I go through the decimal expansion of pie and it determines my choices. And then unless somebody knows,

Starting point is 00:45:10 that I'm doing that, they really can't spot any patterns. Yeah, I've always wondered, are people more likely if they pick rock, are they going to likely pick rock the next time, or are they likely going to not pick rock because they just picked rock? Yeah, I think that's actually what people do. They change what they've just done. So I think you can certainly limit it down. If somebody's done, for example, rock,

Starting point is 00:45:36 they're probably going to go to one of the other two. People do not like doing things which are consecutive, and that actually goes against what we've discovered as mathematicians that randomness likes to do, because randomness actually does like to clump things together. So that's why when you're waiting for a bus, there are no buses, and then suddenly three come along together. Randomness tends to actually make things repeat. So, for example, in my decimal expansion, there'll be quite a lot of repeats of digits, and that will force me to repeat rock, rock. rock rock and you know people just aren't expecting you to do rock rock and then they suddenly go oh he's got a pattern but then that's when you break it so so i think one of the strategies is to mix it up with doubling things every now and again what about playing cards because i mean

Starting point is 00:46:24 that's not a game but it is the source of i mean countless games you can play a million games with a deck of cards do you take a look at them i do and i i think card games are fantastic i would say dice are one of the great inventions of humanity, but the pack of cards for me perhaps wins over. But I did look at the origins of cards because actually, again, a bit like chess, they've changed so much over the years. So cards early on, they only had two kind of court cards, a bit like chess. They would have a king and an advisor. And it's only later on that we start to see three court cards coming in in the European. And the standard 52 card deck that we have today, how old is that?

Starting point is 00:47:14 Yes, that probably is medieval time and grows in Europe. So the addition, there was always one to ten, and that probably comes from the decimal counting that many cultures across the world used. And then when it comes to India, you get the addition of the court cards, and there were probably two added. But in India, you have eight suits. So there are way more cards than in the 52 card pack that we know. And then it seems like, again, because of probably the role of women in society,

Starting point is 00:47:47 you start to get the queen being introduced, just like the queen in chess. Well, you certainly know your games. And it's fun to hear your mathematical perspective on them and your enthusiasm for them. I've been speaking with Marcus de Sotoi. he is a mathematician, a math professor at Oxford, and author of the book, Around the World in 80 Games. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Marcus. Thanks for coming back on. Great. Thank you for having me on again. You know, if you have a pet cat, that cat may be very intrigued by that giant Christmas tree

Starting point is 00:48:26 you bring into your house with all its lights and ornaments and things. And at some point, want to climb in there and maybe even topple it over. There are some things you can do to discourage that behavior. One is to use a little citrus. Cats don't like citrus. So if you peel an orange and tuck some of the peels into the lower branches, that will help keep the cat away. You probably have to repeat that every few days, but it can work. And there's also a product you can buy in pet stores called Bitter Apple. If you spray some of it around the base of the tree, it should keep the cat away. Tinfoil. Most cats would rather not walk on tinfoil.

Starting point is 00:49:06 However, the lure of the tree might be greater than the fear of the foil after a few days. Double-sided tape can be helpful. Cats can't stand to walk on anything sticky, so large strips of double-sided adhesive tape under your tree could do the trick. And remember, too, that rambunctious cats may try for a flying leap onto your tree from nearby furniture. So if possible, move away that furniture and any other potential launching surfaces or put some double-sided tape on the furniture to keep the cat away. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:49:43 One very simple and effective way to support this podcast is to just take a few moments and leave a rating and review. Really, it only takes a second, and it really does help us, and I read all the reviews and appreciate them. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Oh, the Regency Era. You might know it as the time when Bridgeton takes place,

Starting point is 00:50:07 or the time when Jane Austen wrote her books. But the Regency Era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast, and our Regency Era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time.

Starting point is 00:50:30 That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses, and other lesser-known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to vulgar history wherever you get podcasts. The Infinite Monkey Cage returns imminently, I am Robert Ince, and I'm sat next to Brian Cox, who has so much to tell you about what's on the new series. Primarily Eels.

Starting point is 00:51:06 And what else? It was fascinating, though, the Eels. But we're not just doing Eels, are we? We're doing a bit. Brain computer interfaces, timekeeping, fusion, monkey business, cloud, signs of the North Pole, and Eels. Did I mention the Eels? Is this ever since you bought that timeshare underneath the Segas O.C? Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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