Something You Should Know - The Real Difference Between Introverts and Extroverts & How Your Brain Processes Odors

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, interruptions can kill your productivity, yet they still may be good for you. Then we'll clear up a lot of the confusion about introverts and extroverts, like what determines which one you are. We are actually wired as introverts and extroverts. It appears from birth.

Starting point is 00:00:50 And then of course things like environment shape us. But it does appear that there's some very biological basis for being an introvert or extrovert. Also, what does SOS and Mayday actually mean? And how does your brain process odors? And is there any smell that everyone on Earth actually hates? You would actually assume that there must be something that everybody hates. Turns out there's a molecule called cadaverine, which smells like cadavers.

Starting point is 00:01:20 If you dilute it down enough in water, it's got a slight sweetish scent, and some people like it. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue.

Starting point is 00:02:05 It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top

Starting point is 00:02:47 experts and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. If you work in an office, especially an open office where you can't close the door for privacy, you know all about interruptions. It's long been assumed that interruptions can be real productivity killers. However, a new study finds that these interruptions can actually be beneficial and counterbalance that loss of productivity they create. According to the study, which predominantly took place at the University of Cincinnati and will soon appear in the print edition of the Journal of Applied Psychology, while there are certainly downsides to interruptions at work,

Starting point is 00:03:38 like raising levels of stress, lowering people's energy, that loss of productivity I mentioned, there's also an upside. Employees felt more like they belonged, and that eventually led to higher job satisfaction. Productivity aside, humans are social beings who have an inherent need for interacting with others, according to the study's lead author, and interruptions can be that social interaction we crave and may be quite satisfying. And that is something you should know. When someone says they're an introvert, I sometimes sense that other people feel sorry for them, as if, oh, isn't that a shame?

Starting point is 00:04:26 That being an introvert is some sort of disability. If only you could come out of your shell and join the rest of us. But you seldom, if ever, hear anyone talk about the problems of being an extrovert. Are there any? Is being an extrovert a preferred way to be? Do extroverts have an advantage over introverts? Or are they just different? I think there's a lot of confusion about what an introvert is

Starting point is 00:04:53 and what an extrovert is and what it all means. Here with some really good insight into this is Holly Gerth. Holly is a podcaster and a life coach and author of several books, including The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. Hey, Holly, welcome. Thanks for having me. So let's start with an explanation of what an introvert is, because I think there's a lot of confusion about that. I think there are some people who believe that an introvert is someone who is shy or that introvert is a temperament or an insecurity. So what is an introvert? So an introvert is someone whose brain and

Starting point is 00:05:33 nervous system are wired in a way that means they prefer less external stimulation. So things coming at them from the outside world like noise, light, engagement with people is part of that. But the myth is that being an introvert is about something like how much you like small talk or whether or not you want to go to a party. And that is actually not true. Introverts are just as social as extroverts. We are just wired in some unique ways that make us introverts. And it's different from extroverts. Is it really the wiring or is it conditioning or is it you're born that way because your parents are that way? Or what is it really that causes you to desire your stimulation differently?

Starting point is 00:06:23 So we are actually wired as introverts and extroverts. It appears from birth. They have done lifetime studies and these characteristics start showing up even in infants. And so we are designed as introverts and extroverts. And then of course, things like environment shape us, but it does appear that there's some very biological basis for being an introvert or extrovert. Is it either or, or I would imagine it's more of a sliding scale. It is. Absolutely. It's a continuum. And I like to say it's a bit like being right or left handed. So we both use our hands every day, all day, but there's one that's naturally stronger and that we rely on more, especially in certain situations.

Starting point is 00:07:10 And so I'm not a big believer in the concept of ambiverts because of that wiring I just described. I think we are one or the other, but of course, extroverts can leverage some introvert strengths when they need to do. So introverts can leverage some extrovert strengths in certain situations. And so as you said so well, it's not really about extremes. It's about learning to make the most of who we are, but understanding one is going to come more naturally to us than the other. And I'm sure surveys have been done. What's your sense of how many of us are in the introvert camp versus the extrovert camp?

Starting point is 00:07:51 Well, a study by the Myers-Briggs Foundation found that 51.4% of the population is made up of introverts. So as a culture, we are more extroverted. But when it comes down to actual people in the population, it's about 50-50. Very often when you hear the word introvert, as in Holly's an introvert, you often hear in the same sentence that she's also shy. Shy and introversion seem to go hand in hand. Is that fair? Is that true? That is another big misconception. So shyness

Starting point is 00:08:27 is about fear. And introversion is about, as we've been talking about, the preference for more minimally stimulating environments. And so an extrovert can be shy. If they're walking into a room and feeling fear because they're unsure how they're going to come across and holding back because of it, then that is shyness. But introversion, again, is more about how we prefer to engage with our environment. So of course, introverts can be shy, but the two are not the same. They're actually very different things. But there is this, I guess it's a cultural thing, but there's this sense that being an introvert is worse than being an extrovert. That you're a little less well-equipped to navigate the world as an introvert because you're an introvert.

Starting point is 00:09:22 That you're holding yourself back somehow. There's just that stigma. There is a stigma with introversion. And it's interesting because that's a very culturally specific stereotype. It is not worldwide. It's also not like that throughout history. We just happen to live in a time, especially in North America, where the culture leans a bit more extroverted. But for example, Finland is a very introverted

Starting point is 00:09:51 country. It also keeps getting ranked as the happiest country in the world. And so we tend to look at it that way here, but there are actually a lot of places where introversion is the more highly valued way of engaging with the world. And so I think that's important for people to know because introverts bring strengths that our culture needs, like our capacity for insight, our ability to respond rather than react, our desire to have meaningful relationships in a world where a lot of people are disconnected.

Starting point is 00:10:26 And I'm so grateful that we have the strengths of extroverts too, but I never want introverts to underestimate what they have to offer or feel like they need to change in order to impact the world. We need both extroverts and introverts to fully be who they are for our world to be at its best. And yet you so often hear the advice to come out of your shell, be more outgoing, that that's what's wrong with you, that you need to be more like an extrovert. Yeah. And a big part of that is that extroverts and introverts experience happiness differently because of that dopamine and acetylcholine neurotransmitter connection with each type. So for extroverts, happiness feels like excitement and enthusiasm. It's a

Starting point is 00:11:20 very outward emotion. For introverts, happiness feels like calm and contentment. It's a very outward emotion. For introverts, happiness feels like calm and contentment. It's a more inward emotion. And so often when extroverts see an introvert just hanging out or reading a book or staring at the waves at the beach, they think something must be wrong. This person isn't expressing happiness the way I would. And so they say things like, hey, come out of your shell, or let's go do something fun, when actually they're just seeing a different kind of expression of happiness. And so I think clearing up some of those misunderstandings is important. And so

Starting point is 00:11:57 we can understand, hey, that introvert is perfectly content. And this is just, again, a different way of engaging with the world. One of the ways I think people identify or assume that someone is an introvert is from their behavior. And I think the assumption is that when you see someone who's quiet, withdrawn, not engaged with people, that that behavior indicates introversion. Yes. And that behavior can be interpreted in different ways. So you might say that person is withdrawn. That person actually might be observant and highly perceptive. Introverts, because of our sensitive nervous systems, we're always taking in a lot. They work kind of like nets with tiny holes.

Starting point is 00:12:48 And so some of the most creative people in the world, artists, chefs, authors are often introverts. And it's because of that way of observing. So often when you see an introvert that on the outside, you might just say, oh, they're withdrawn. They're actually highly engaged. They're just doing inward processing. And so in our culture, that's what we project onto introverts. If you're quiet, if you're still, the inside, studies keep showing that introverts actually have a higher level of internal activity. And that often turns into contributions to our culture. A lot of technical innovations, a lot of great works of art, a lot of social causes have been advanced because of reflective, thoughtful introverts. And so, again, what extroverts have to offer is so valuable to you, but we need those quiet, reflective introverts as well. We're talking about introverts and

Starting point is 00:13:53 extroverts, and we're talking with Holly Gerth. She's author of the book, The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show

Starting point is 00:14:25 along for the ride we've got writers producers composers directors and we'll of course have some actors on as well including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers it was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible the note from kripke was he's great we we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to hear new ideas and perspectives.

Starting point is 00:15:06 So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:15:35 And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker, John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Holly, when you say that a lot of creative people are introverts, I would also imagine a lot of creative people are extroverts. And you pointed out earlier that

Starting point is 00:16:12 the population is basically 50-50 introverts or extroverts. So is creativity and introversion two things that go hand in hand, or you're just pointing out that there are creative people who also happen to be introverts? In some areas, such as art and writing, there are higher levels of introverts. In more public forms of creativity, such as acting, then there's likely to be a more even split split or even for it to skew a little more extroverted. But there are actually a lot of public figures that people wouldn't guess are introverts. For example, Oprah, Jerry Seinfeld, Michael Jordan are all introverts. What's the connection between being an introvert and wanting to be alone? So when an introvert is alone, they're withdrawing. Sometimes we do need to withdraw from that external stimulation

Starting point is 00:17:14 because we have taken in all we can through our nervous system for the time being. Like I said, if it's like a net, that net is full. And the way we empty that net out so that we can go back into the world is by having time to reflect and process inwardly and become re-energized. And so that is what introverts are doing. It's actually not about physical space alone. That's an element of it. But it's more about bringing mental order internally again so that we're ready to re-engage with the world.

Starting point is 00:17:49 What else do introverts have in common with each other? I'm thinking maybe something like maybe they're more sensitive or maybe they're more empathic or maybe. But are there other things that introverts have in common or is that the thing and then everything else is different? I would say introverts have in common that they are highly perceptive for the reasons we've been talking about. Now, that looks different depending on the introvert.

Starting point is 00:18:14 So, for example, an introvert that is more of a thinker is going to be highly perceptive, maybe when it comes to something like details on a spreadsheet or a technical innovation, a more highly perceptive emotional introvert is going to be very perceptive as a counselor or perhaps a nurse engaging with people. But that ability to be observant, which does lead to things like empathy and creativity and understanding details, I think is a real strength that introverts bring to situations. We also have in common that we take longer to process, which we can be hard on ourselves about, but it actually helps us to be very intentional when it comes to conversations and decisions. We think things through. We often can bring people together

Starting point is 00:19:06 because we understand both sides of something. And so I think it's about saying, okay, here are parts of myself as an introvert that maybe I've even been told you need to change. You need to be more outgoing. Why do you need time alone? And saying, what is the other side of that? What is the strength side of it? How can I use it to contribute to the world? And if you love lead or share life with an introvert, asking yourself the same thing, have I been assuming things about this introvert in my life that may not be true? And what do they add to my life? And then of course I would encourage introverts do the same with extroverts because we need them as well. I think it's just about figuring out how can we all be at our best and be better together. There is also, I think, a perception that introverts are less

Starting point is 00:19:56 confident, less resilient, more sensitive, that they're not the one to speak up in a meeting. They're more willing to sit back and let others speak. I would say if introverts struggle with confidence, it's because we're in a world that is more extrovert centric. And so there is some pressure sometimes to feel like, okay, I need to be different than who I am. And that's why I'm really passionate about telling introverts, you don't need to change. There was a leadership study that looked at CEOs over a 10-year period and hundreds of companies. And the introvert CEOs were actually slightly more likely to outperform the expectations of their boards and investors. And that's not what we would guess in our world. And so I think it's pausing and saying,

Starting point is 00:20:46 is this assumption really true? Do I need to really change as an introvert? What areas do I need to grow in? You know, if an introvert is not fully contributing at work because they are a bit more hesitant to speak up in meetings or need that longer time to process, then maybe it's committing to taking time to prepare before every meeting, listing out questions. There are a lot of strategies that introverts can use in specific situations, or that if you are leading an introvert or have an introvert child, you can help them create some strategies for certain situations in their lives that might be a bit more challenging. And the same is true of extroverts. I've had extroverts tell me that

Starting point is 00:21:31 sometimes they use time with other people to avoid themselves. It's hard for them to go inward and do that kind of personal growth work that we all need to at times. I want to go back to what you were saying about stimulation, that introverts don't like as much stimulation as extroverts, and drill down a little bit to what that means. They don't like as much stimulation, or they like different kinds of stimulation, or not as intense. What do you mean by stimulation? Yes. Okay. So a setting where an extrovert would more likely feel comfortable is at a dinner party where there's multiple people in the room. Imagine there's music and a lot of conversation. There's food and lights. All of your senses are fully engaged at a high level. That extrovert probably is a great storyteller who captivates the attention of that table.

Starting point is 00:22:29 That is going to be energizing. That is high stimulation. So for the introvert, that's probably enjoyable for a while, but then they're going to start thinking, okay, I've hit my 10 point. I'm ready to go home and be somewhere quiet. And if an introvert really wanted to connect relationally, their sweet spot would be more likely to be something like coffee with one person where they are sitting across from them.

Starting point is 00:22:53 They are making eye contact. They're talking about meaningful things in their lives. They're able to go deep. That is an example of lower stimulation. And so it's not about one being better than the other. It's just about it being different. And of course, in life, you don't pick one or the other. We're going to be in both kinds of circumstances, but it's okay if one is more comfortable than

Starting point is 00:23:20 the other for us. And again, you can make strategies for that. So when I go to a place where I'm going to be around a lot of people, like a conference, I like to find what I call a designated extrovert. And I tell this person, all right, walk around the room with me, help me make some small talk. And they're like, okay, if someone wants to go really deep and share their life story, then that's on you. And we say, okay, we've got this together. Well, it's interesting. There are books like yours and other books and podcasts and speakers

Starting point is 00:23:49 who talk about the challenges faced by introverts. But you don't often hear, I've never heard of anybody who speaks or writes about the challenges faced by extroverts and what they must adapt to get by in the world? What I often hear is introverts will say, I'm not enough. Extroverts tend to say, I'm too much. And so I would love for an extrovert to write the equivalent of those books you mentioned, because I would be the first to read it. I would love to better understand what are the challenges of this other type? Because some of my favorite people, my daughter is an off the chart extrovert, and I would love to know how to love her even better. And so I do agree that there's more conversation,

Starting point is 00:24:37 probably around introversion right now. I hope that will balance out because I think we need to understand both types so that we can love and serve and live in this world together in the best ways possible. Yeah, because people will say, you know, I'm an introvert and I struggle with this, but I seldom hear extroverts say, I'm an extrovert and I struggle with this. It's like that's the acceptable way to be, and introversion, you have to navigate differently because you're navigating in somebody else's world. Yeah, I do think that's true. And I actually sent out a survey to my readers on my blog and asked, are you an introvert or extrovert?

Starting point is 00:25:18 And what's your biggest challenge as an introvert or extrovert? And I was so surprised that the extroverts said their biggest struggle was loneliness. I would assume the opposite. And so I would love to hear a behind the scenes of, we may not always say it out loud, but as extroverts, we're actually longing for deeper relationship, which is what a lot of them said. Or like I said, you know, sometimes we feel like too much. We worry that we overwhelm people, whatever it is. I would love to have more insight into that as well. Great. And if you have some insight you'd like to share with Holly, you can do so through her website and blog, which is at hollygirth.com, G-E-R-T-H, hollygirth.com.

Starting point is 00:26:06 And she also has a quiz on her website that you can take. It only takes a minute, and you can see where you fall on the introvert-extrovert scale. Holly is the co-host of a podcast called More Than Small Talk, and the name of her book is The Powerful Purpose of Introverts. There's a link to her book at Amazon, as well as a link to her website in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Holly. Thanks, Mike. It's been great being with you today. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our

Starting point is 00:26:42 fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone.

Starting point is 00:27:04 Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Disney Countdown, wherever you get your podcasts. didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Sometimes when people get COVID, one of the symptoms can be loss of smell. One person I know who had this happen said, It's interesting how you don't really notice or appreciate your sense of smell that much until you lose it. Your sense of smell is so different than your other senses, and it makes

Starting point is 00:28:06 you wonder, what exactly is it? What does your nose tell your brain, and how does your brain make sense of a smell? We've discussed the sense of smell before here on this podcast, but not like this. Joining me is Anne-Sophie Barwich. She is a cognitive scientist, an empirical philosopher, and assistant professor at Indiana University in Bloomington. The name of her book is Smellosophy, What the Nose Tells the Mind. Hi Anne, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you very much for having me. So tell me why smell fascinates you so much. Smell fascinates me because it challenges our intuitions about how we think the mind works. We talk about objects of perception, we talk about

Starting point is 00:28:52 the distance of objects or directionality, all that makes no sense when it comes to smell. What would be the directionality of a smell? So I thought, well, how else should we think about perception if we just look at smell rather than vision? So besides from the obvious difference, what is it about smell that makes it so interesting because it's different than, say, vision? Well, vision, for instance, is a distal sense. You don't perceive objects, you perceive surface reflections. With smell, the molecules actually directly touch and tango with your nose. You are in direct material contact with the world, which by the

Starting point is 00:29:31 way is a bad thing actually if you think about that the toilet often stings and if you go to a public toilet, yeah, I'm afraid you're literally interacting with whatever somebody left there. Well, thanks. That's really gross to think about. I'm afraid I could ruin many, many more things for you. For instance, coffee, but I might not do that. No, go ahead. You can't tease me like that and then not tell me. So coffee, for instance, we often think about, well, the smell of coffee, how is it caused by, and you've got hundreds and hundreds of molecules in coffee. Interesting enough, none of which smells of coffee. So you've got 800 different compounds that together create this beautiful coffee smell. However, part of, you've got these individual

Starting point is 00:30:17 compounds and a small percentage of these compounds is caused, is indole. And indole is a molecule that has a strong fecal smell, but you don't smell it individually. But yes, I'm afraid there is something less than tasty in your coffee. And so do people, absent any kind of disease or injury or anything, do we pretty much all smell things the same way? You would think so, but it turns out that's not the case. So my favorite example to illustrate what that means is androstenone. Androstenone is a chemical that's mainly a pig pheromone, but it does more than just make pigs attractive to each other. Humans can also smell it. They can smell the odor of it, most of them. Some people can't, some people can,

Starting point is 00:31:03 and the people who can, some find it deeply unpleasant people can't, some people can. And the people who can, some find it deeply unpleasant. They say, well, androstanone smells of urine. Okay. Some people say androstanone smells of body odor, also very unpleasant. And then you've got people say, I find it very pleasant. To me, it has a woody smell. It smells of wood. And other people say, oh, this is actually floral floral so you've got the same chemical with completely different associations in terms of what the quality is as well as the hedonics whether it's pleasant or unpleasant and the reason for that is not that smell is simply subjective or some weird whim in your head the reason for that is genetics and so the genetic

Starting point is 00:31:43 differences really lead to differences in perception, like whether the receptors in your nose are more or less sensitive to a chemical. Maybe you're also lacking a receptor in order to detect a chemical. So it's biological, actually. Is there a smell, has anyone uncovered a smell that is universally hated, that everyone dislikes, or a smell that is universally liked, that everybody who smells it likes it? Not yet, but my best guess would be it would be bacon, fried bacon. Even vegetarians go like, well, that could change my mind. There hasn't been one found yet.

Starting point is 00:32:22 A lot of these are culturally associated, and you would actually assume that there must be something that everybody hates. Turns out there's a molecule called cadaverine, which smells like cadavers. So it's like rotten flesh. It's deeply unpleasant. But there are some people, if you dilute it down enough in water, if you just have it in a small, like a tiny concentration water, it's got a slight Swedish scent. It's slightly Swedish and some people like it.

Starting point is 00:32:49 So there is for some reason a lot of variability and people react differently to smells. It seems that smell is very adaptive in the sense that, like when I was a kid, I would go to this farm, this dairy farm in the summer. And as soon as you approached it, you pull in the driveway, the smell of the cows, the poop was horrible. I mean, just horrible. But within 20 minutes, you didn't even notice it anymore. That somehow your body, your sense of smell stops saying, it stops alerting you to how horrible this is. And you just get on with your life. Oh, yes. And there is a nice explanation for that.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Because imagine you would smell everything all the time everywhere because everything smells molecules, volatile aromatic molecules come from all things. Everything smells. You would go mental. You would call for a lobotomy if you're constantly distracted by all these smells especially the bad ones turns out uh your system your biological system your body adapts to these things so your receptors at some point stop firing they go like no no we've got the baseline we know what's in the surroundings here that's why you also stop smelling yourself because you do smell

Starting point is 00:34:01 of course everybody has an own body odor but you don't smell yourself or your home. You only recognize its unique smell when you come back after holiday. And this is basically your biology muting down. So it mutes the input. It hits the mute button in order for the brain to actually get a breather. I want to go back to what you said about bacon because I love the smell of bacon, but I don't really like the taste

Starting point is 00:34:26 of bacon. I don't eat bacon. I don't like the taste of it, but I love that smell. And that seems weird to me because you would think if you like the way something smells, wouldn't you like the way it tastes? You would think so, but it turns out that's not the case. That's the same with coffee. Coffee smells amazing. But can I be honest? The taste is a little bit disappointing. Nobody says wake up to the taste of coffee. It's always the smell.

Starting point is 00:34:52 Turns out you actually have two senses of smell. You have one nose, but two senses of smell. And one sense of smell is when you inhale. So the molecules from the air, you inhale them. It's the kind of sniffing. But there's also retronasal olfaction, which basically means mouth breathing olfaction. And most of what you call actually taste is smell. Because what happens is when you chew, you also release aromatic

Starting point is 00:35:16 molecules through chewing, which actually travel through the back of your throat, up to your nose. So these molecules get pushed from the air in your lungs when you breathe out and you can test that. So next time you have a jelly bean or a glass of wine or something with an intense flavor, you hold your nose so that you can't smell a thing. You chew, focus on the taste. It's surprisingly bland. Then release your nose, breathe out, swallow swallow and you realize all these fruity notes or um a lot of the a lot of the flavors notes then suddenly hit you they hit your mind that's why when you have a cold for instance you don't everything tastes bland and that's why coffee for instance but also cheese and many other things they have a flavor and a smell profile. And now you would say, well, why do they then smell different if it's both in the nose?

Starting point is 00:36:07 Well, it turns out that because the air from the lungs that push these molecules up also change the airflow and the temperature. So molecules arrive at different orders at the epithelium, at the nasal tissue on the top of your nose. And that actually changes the taste, well, the flavor. Well, if taste, if a large part of the sense of taste is really the sense of smell, then what does that mean to people who over time or for whatever reason lose their sense of smell or it becomes less potent? What does that do to your sense of taste? I would imagine you don't taste

Starting point is 00:36:45 things as well. Oh, yes, you're actually losing, you're losing a lot of the richness of the flavors. Because if you think about it, you don't have a strawberry receptor on your tongue, you don't have a mint receptor on your tongue. You've got sour, sweet, salty, bitter, and umami, which you know, is that meaty, savory savory taste but there is no apple receptor so actually if you were losing your sense of smell entirely as many people during covid for instance did what you can do is you can eat an apple and you can eat an onion and you will not be able to tell the difference it's the same texture and it tastes the same, which is inconceivable if you think about it. Like apple and onion, anything more apart is hard to imagine.

Starting point is 00:37:29 But apple and onion taste the same without the flavor. You said at the beginning that there's a connection between smell and cognition. Can you explain it? Oh, yes. One issue is, of course, the connection between smell and memory, because quite often one of the things we like to say as well, smell is, of course, the perception of chemicals. But how does the brain actually know what that chemical means or what it smells like? we don't memorize smells as smells well but we often associate some strong personal autobiographical bond with with a smell so i i remember for instance the the smell of my father's garage other people might have the former lover's perfume there are certain smells that etch

Starting point is 00:38:18 themselves into memory you you you walk somewhere somebody passes by wears the same cologne from your former lover and you're back you're immediately back and these associations and memory aspects are still underexplored i do think this is the holy grail of research on the sense of smell today this is one thing memory the other thing is that you can get better if you actually think about smell. So smell is not just better than you think, if we think about the precision with which the nose detects chemicals, but it's also better when you think. You can train your mind to discover new qualities that you wouldn't have noticed before. Good example is sometimes, you know, when you're walking somewhere and somebody says, oh, did you notice that? Let's say you have a glass of wine and like, oh, did you notice that vanilla note?

Starting point is 00:39:08 You didn't. But suddenly it's in your mind from from one point to the other. And from then on, you can also focus on, oh, yes. And there's also a little bit of blackberry. There's a little bit of cherry or plum in there. If you focus on something, if you use your mind, you can actually go beyond, well, this kind of smells like red wine. And you go like, hmm, there's a profile here. There's different notes that actually form a whole picture. Everyone has had the experience of smelling something and have that smell basically transport them back to another time, another place, or a person. And it's somehow different than if you were to look at a picture that would remind you of the same time or place or person,

Starting point is 00:39:53 that a smell takes you there on a different route than a photo would. Oh, yes. Many people say, well, smells seem to be closer to emotion. You've got certain smells that pluck your heartstrings. I think it's a bit more different because you have the same with music. There are certain songs you listen to, especially as a teenager, the first heartbreak, the first love, and you hear that song again, even though the song itself might not be the most, like a masterpiece of music taste,

Starting point is 00:40:23 but it still gets you into a certain emotional state what makes smell i think more different even from this emotionality associated with music is that it instantly catapults you back almost physically so when you smell something from your past you're almost back to that time and place or the person next to you. It's got this embodied pull. It almost pulls you physically back to the time. And that's why, for instance, if you lose a loved one, the last thing you give away is their clothes, their t-shirts or something, because it still has that smell lingering as if there's a physical presence to that smell. You know what's happened to me recently is I've smelled things that trigger a memory, but I can't remember the memory.

Starting point is 00:41:15 I know this is from my past, but I can't remember from when. Oh, yes. You have it sometimes also. It's associated with the so-called tip of the nose phenomenon, that sometimes you've got a smell like, I know this, and you've got a feeling with it. And if somebody were to tell you what it is, or if you find a cue that triggers the precise association, it's immediately there. It's almost like, well, I know this actor, the name is on the tip of my tongue. So there's a similar phenomenon, tip of the tongue and tip of the nose. But I know what you mean. And I think the ambiguity that you're not immediately going like it's this or it's that memory is

Starting point is 00:41:56 because many smells are ambiguous, meaning they can come from a variety of things. So you're like, well, I kind of know this, but you often need a second cue or something that triggers the precise identification. What else in all the work you've done and researching this, what else about the sense of smell do you think is really interesting or that would surprise people? One fascinating thing is that the receptors in your nose were only discovered in 1991, so precisely 30 years ago. That's very recent compared to the history of physics or also research on vision. And why I find that fascinating is because I was always so enamored

Starting point is 00:42:36 by the history of science, and I thought it must have been so great to be there at the frontiers of science when all these big discoveries happened. How was it? How did people find that out? Because we only always just hear the finished reports. Well, it turns out that smell is such a research field, just at the margins, catapulted into mainstream science, and now progressing in a live stream in an ongoing way.

Starting point is 00:43:01 So you can still talk to the people. They're still alive, who actually made the field what it is today. So this is, I find, fascinating just from a historical perspective. Well, I've always wondered why, I mean, you would think that the smells that we would find desirable are the ones in nature, and often they are, but we also like things like new car smell, which is, you know, all chemicals, we're told it's even bad to smell it, but there is something about it that's very appealing.

Starting point is 00:43:32 Maybe it's just because it's a new car. Indeed. I was grinning because I think I like the new Mac, the new Macintosh smell, and you can buy that by now also as fragrances. And there is even, if you want to do just a party game with a couple of friends, there's a perfume series. It's a very kind of a more of a cheap, fun perfume, the Demeter series,

Starting point is 00:43:58 and they have different concepts associated with their smell. So you can get a perfume called Lobster, or you can get a perfume called lobster, or you can get a perfume called dirt, or clean linen, or even funeral home. So you've got the most, sometimes natural smells, like tomato, and absurd conceptual ones like funeral home, and it smells like that. So it's fascinating that chemists, fragrance chemists, can create, they can basically can create certain object

Starting point is 00:44:26 associations in your mind by molecules that need not come from these objects. So you can have a lobster that smells of lobster or a perfume with molecules in there that need not come from lobster, but smell of it. But would you think funeral home perfume smelled like funeral home if you didn't know it was called funeral home perfume? That's the big question. Well, for me, it smelled like carpet and earth. And so it's more of like a conceptual combination. You might not think funeral home if you smell it without the word or if you smell it without seeing something associated with it. The fun part is, this was described by a German psychologist in 1916, saying, well,

Starting point is 00:45:13 clearly there's a difference if you give people an odor, or if you give people an odor with an object they see. The descriptions of that smell differ fundamentally. What about the idea of certain smells calming you down? You know, aromatherapy or, you know, I like the smell of cut grass and when I smell it, it's very relaxing to me. Is there something to that? I think there is something to it uh it might i don't think it's necessarily oh this molecule always has that effect but i do think you can condition yourself through uh through smelling into a certain mental state i think you can do that with many things it's like with meditation you can train yourself um and i do wonder whether you can actually put it to good use so if you've got

Starting point is 00:46:00 people with ptsd post post-traumatic stress syndrome, and who are often triggered by, let's say, certain noises, if they come back, let's say, from a war or something, whether you could counteract that by training them to, okay, if that happens, a tag, as a tag for memory, as a certain kind of behavior, as a training thing. I think you could use it for good. I don't think it's necessarily just this chemical is always good or this chemical is always bad. But I think you can train yourself with like, I like that smell. I might use that smell to train myself to be calm. We're smelling things all day long. Sometimes, you know, very strong smells. But we don't stop and think, oh, I'm smelling that.

Starting point is 00:46:47 But I can't imagine that given all the things we smell, that those scents, those fragrances, those odors don't somehow work their way into what we're thinking, decisions we make, ideas we have, that kind of thing. One thing I find most fascinating is actually, we might not always be aware of smells, but they still influence our behavior. And you can, for instance, test that yourself. Next time you are in a waiting room, let's say, especially if you're at a train station, or if you see people waiting to become invited to an interview a job interview you often see them after a while actually fairly quickly put their hands to their nose especially after they shake the hands of the interviewer so we actually use our hands as an extended tool to smell our environment to smell who's the other

Starting point is 00:47:44 person and there was an experiment done by an Israeli researcher, Noam Sobel, showing that we do smell our environment unconsciously and making judgments about things and people even without noticing. And I like the fact that we can learn through smell a lot about what we're not conscious of, but what certainly influences our behavior. Well, our sense of smell, I think, is so much more important than we think it is because it doesn't capture our attention the way sight does or a loud sound does. But it's still playing into everything we do, and it's interesting to hear how it all works. Anne-Sophie Barwich has been my guest. She's a cognitive scientist, an empirical philosopher, and assistant professor at Indiana University in Bloomington.

Starting point is 00:48:32 The name of her book is Smellosophy, What the Nose Tells the Mind, and there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Anne. Thanks for being here. Thank you very much. This was a fun conversation. Thank you. S.O.S. It's a universal phrase and signal for distress. But do you know what the letters S.O.S. stand for? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. If you guessed save our ship or save our souls or sink or swim, well, don't feel bad. That's what most people think.

Starting point is 00:49:10 But SOS started out as Morse code, and it was chosen as a distress signal because SOS is three dots, three dashes, then three dots again, and that's easy to transmit and not easily confused with other letters. Once radios came along in the 1920s, Mayday took over as the international distress signal. It's another made-up word that was chosen because it's easy to remember and can be understood even if the radio signal is weak. And it also resembles the French word, m'aider, which means help me.

Starting point is 00:49:49 So it was a logical choice. And that is something you should know. Probably the best way to support this podcast is to get us a listener. Tell someone you know to listen and good chance that they'll like it and keep listening. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

Starting point is 00:50:16 In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership

Starting point is 00:50:41 to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook.

Starting point is 00:50:55 Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. you get your podcasts. a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - The Real Difference Between Introverts and Extroverts & How Your Brain Processes Odors

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