Something You Should Know - The Rules to Play the Game of Life & How to Be an Effective Parent in the 21st Century

Episode Date: February 13, 2020

Is all gasoline the same? Actually, there is a difference. This episode begins with an explanation of the difference between regular gas and “Top Tier” gas and why you might want to check out the website https://toptiergas.com/ In life, there are finite games and infinite games. Your career or marriage are examples of infinite games. There is no ultimate winner in those games. It turns out a lot of life is an infinite game even though we sometimes don’t treat it that way. Simon Sinek author of the book The Infinite Game (https://amzn.to/31I4y3G) joins me to explain how we are all players in both finite and infinite games – and how you play those games determines your success in life and career. You touch a lot of things during the day and the cash in your wallet is one of the grossest. Listen as I explain just how gross it is and what disgusting organisms are clinging to your money. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/dirty-money/ The role parents play in their children’s lives has changed. Parents are far more involved than they used to be. That’s not a good thing according to psychologist Madeline Levine, author of the book Ready or Not: Preparing our Kids to Thrive in an Uncertain and Rapidly Changing World (https://amzn.to/38aTdLE). Madeline joins me with a look at the problems created by this new modern parenting and offers some ways to make it better. This Week's Sponsors -Blinkist. Go towww.Blinkist.com/sysk to start your free 7 day trial and get 25% off your subscription Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, what kind of gas do you put in your car? I'll tell you why it matters. Then, understanding the concept of infinite games and how so much of your life is not about winning. We are actually players in infinite games every day of our lives, whether we know it or not. There's no such thing as winning in your marriage.

There's no such thing as winning in your marriage. There's no such thing as winning global politics. Nobody is declared the winner of career. And definitely, there's no such thing as winning business. Also, why the less you handle cash, the better for your health. And some refreshing advice for parents in the 21st century. The number of times somebody sits in my office and says, I can't stand to see my kid unhappy. My answer is always the same, which is you're in the wrong profession. You have got

to be able to tolerate your child being unhappy because how else are they going to learn that it's not the end of the world? All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests,

but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker.

Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to episode 380 of Something You Should Know. And I mentioned that to highlight the fact that there are a lot of previous episodes. And if you haven't heard them all, I invite you to go back and give a listen. They're right there. Wherever you're listening to this, all the episodes, or at least the last 300 episodes, are listed. First up today, we're going to talk about gasoline.

I think there's a general belief that gasoline is gasoline, and that all brands are pretty much the same, and cheaper is better. But automotive technician Pamela Oak says that's not so. A while ago, top automakers met with petroleum companies and basically said, for our cars to get the best miles per gallon and to reduce emissions, we need a gasoline with this specific formula.

Several gasoline brands stepped up to the plate and met those standards. Others did not, or have not yet. In tests, cars running on gasoline with that formula get 3-4 miles per gallon more than other gasolines. Those gasoline brands are designated as top-tier gasolines. To find out which gasolines are in that group, go to TopTierGas.com That's TopTierGas.com. We'll put

that in the show notes as well. You might be surprised to find that your favorite gasoline is not yet on that list. And that is something you should know. You are about to look at your life differently, in a way you have never really thought of before, most likely. But once you hear this, it's going to make you think.

And it's all about the difference between finite games and infinite games. And rather than me trying to explain it to you, let me introduce to you Simon Sinek. Simon is a speaker and author of several books, and his latest is called The Infinite Game. Hey, Simon, welcome. Hey, how are you? So explain what you mean by The Infinite Game and finite games and infinite games and what the difference is and why this is all worth talking about. In 1986, a theologian and philosopher named James Kars

theorized these two kinds of games, finite games and infinite games. A finite game is defined as known players, fixed rules, and an agreed upon objective, football, baseball. There's always a beginning, middle, and end. And if there's a winner, there has to be a loser. And there are infinite games. Infinite games are defined as known and unknown players, which means a new player can join at any time. The rules are changeable, which means we can play however we want. And the objective is to perpetuate the game, to stay in the game as long as possible. There's no such thing as winning an infinite game because they run out of the will or the resources to play. That's about the best we can ever do. But we are actually players in infinite games every day of our lives, whether we know it or not. There's no such thing as winning in your marriage. There's no such thing as winning global politics. Nobody is declared the winner of career. And definitely, there's no such thing as winning business. But if we listen to so many leaders, they talk about being number one, being the best, or beating their competition. Based on what?

Based upon what agreed upon metrics, objectives, or timeframes. And the problem is when we play with a finite mindset in an infinite game, when we play to win in a game that has no finish line, there's a few very predictable and consistent outcomes. The decline of trust, the decline of cooperation, and the decline of innovation. But it would seem that even if you're in an infinite game trying to play by the finite rules, you know, beating your competition or being number one, yeah, you're not always going to be number one, but why not strive to be it all the time, even if you won't always be it? What does it mean to be number one? What

does it mean to have the number one podcast? What does that even mean? Does it mean you make the most money? Does it mean you have the best, the most listeners? Does it mean you have the most engagement? Does it mean the people who listen are the kinds of people you want to listen? Like, what does it mean to have the number one podcast? What does that even mean? So you're striving to be number one with a set of metrics that you decide. So there's nothing wrong with the finite game. The infinite game is not the absence of the finite game. It's the context within which it exists. So think of it less like a game like football or baseball and think of it more like a lifestyle, like exercise. You can absolutely have goals and timeframes in exercise. You want

to lose X amount of weight by X date. And goals are fantastic. They're easy to measure. You can feel the progress. And if you hit your goal, you feel great. But what happens if you miss your goal in your exercise? Nothing. Nothing happens. In fact, you might hit your goal a month or two later. And you're still way healthier now than you were before. And the worst part about it is even if you do hit your goal, you have to keep doing the exercise for the rest of your life. It's a set of practices.

And what I learned is that becoming obsessed with the practices that make a great business, for example, are more important than whether you're number one in an arbitrary timeframe with arbitrary metrics. Okay, well, that makes a lot of sense. And the exercise example is an excellent example, because you're right. No matter what, you're still better off than if you didn't do it at all. And you may get there two months later and no harm, no foul. Exactly. And if you think about how many businesses set out with these, what they call vision, but it's not really, it's just a bold

goal, you know, you know, to, you know, be a billion dollar business. Well, what happens if you reach that goal? What, you know, to be number one. Okay. What happens if that happens? What happens if you are number one, based on whatever metrics you want to choose, do you close the business goal achieved or do you play defense for the rest of your life? That'd be funny. Yeah. We made a billion dollars. We're closing up shop. Exactly. That was our goal. That was our vision. So now we're done. And so what are we supposed to do with this? I mean, it's interesting to distinguish the difference between finite and infinite games and how it applies to business and all, but

then what do we do with it? Well, I mean, again, this is not just about business. This is about all kinds of things in our lives, our relationships, you know, when, when we try and one up each other in our relationships, um, or friendships, when we're competitive with our friends, you know, this doesn't go a long way to helping build trust amongst, amongst our friends. So what I've tried to do is, is lay out a series of practices that we can all learn to help us live healthier lives within this infinite game, within all these infinite games that we're players. You know, many of us have careers. We still go to work. You're never going to be declared the winner of your career. And being number one, again, based on what rank or salary or how much people respect you.

And so those, those things are about having a just cause. In other words, waking up every day to advance something bigger than ourselves, that there's more to it than just us. Building trusting teams, ensuring that the people we work with or our friends, that we give them a safe space to be themselves, that they do trust us and we trust them back. Having worthy rivals, abandoning this idea that other people in the game are competitors. Competitors are there to be beaten, but rather rivals whose strengths can reveal to us our own weaknesses. They're good at things. They're better at things than we are. So instead of hating them or being insecure about it, to channel that energy to try and improve ourselves, which ultimately is

what the infinite game is all about. It's a game of self-improvement. That's ultimately what it is. The idea of being able to make an existential flex to change the path we're on because we find a better way to advance our cause and ultimately having the courage to do all these things. So many of the pressures on us, both at work and in our families, so many of the pressures on us are to play the finite game. Our guidance counselors and our teachers and our parents are telling us we always have to be the best. You know, our incentive structures in our companies are usually based on short-term arbitrary numbers. And so it takes a lot of courage to play in the infinite game with an infinite mindset. Understood. But what's wrong with rewarding people in the short term? Because often rewards

in the short term will lead to long term improvement. Well, that's not a that's not a true statement. I mean, there's nothing wrong with incentivizing people in the short term, as long as it's balanced off with incentivizing people to advance the greater good and advance something long term. Also, too many of our incentive structures are out of balance, they only incentivize short term at the expense of the long-term. And we see what happens. We've seen it in business. We've seen it in politics. We're looking at, look what's happening with Boeing right now. That's all based on finite thinking. We've seen it in healthcare, where pharmaceutical companies will raise the price of an essential drug a thousand percent

because somebody got bonus to make a stock price at a certain number by a certain date. And yet these things do tremendous long-term damage both to the organizations, the products, and their customers. Those are extreme examples. But those kinds of scenarios exist inside companies every single day. So what does it take to shift to what you're talking about? I mean, do you just decide, let's stop doing that and do this? Well, it's about finding balance. It's about embracing the infinite mindset. First of all, we have to understand the game we're in. Not all games are infinite. Some games are finite. And sometimes the finite games are contained within the infinite game. So for example,

somebody who works for an airline and their job is to make sure the plane leaves on time, that is finite. There's a beginning, middle, and end. And we can measure the progress and we want them to be really good at that finite game. But they have to understand there's a context within that finite game exists. In other words, they can't yell and scream at customers so they can get the plane off on time, even though that's what their job is. They have to be nice to people and there still has to be customer service, because they have a vision for the fact that they want customers to keep coming back for the long-term benefit of the company. And sometimes they have to sacrifice the short-term. Sometimes they have to do right by the customer, even if it costs the company a little bit of money.

In other words, a short-term sacrifice is good for the long-term. So it's trying to understand the game you're in, and it's trying to find that right balance. It's not so much science as it is art. And this is why these things require practice. I imagine that a lot of companies and people would say, well, we do that. We do that. That's what we

do with it. We're not, uh, this cold, uh, organization that's not nice to our customers because we wouldn't have any if we weren't. So this doesn't apply to me. That's like somebody saying that I have no room for improvement. I think I've, I think I'm very good at everything I do. And I think our numbers prove it. I mean, anybody who's that close minded to believe that they've got everything figured out, run, run far away, run very far away. I'm speaking with Simon Sinek. He is a speaker and author of several books. His latest is called The Infinite Game. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce.

That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives,

and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Simon, again, where is the pivot? Where do you make the, how do you make the change from your finite thinking to infinite thinking if you've never done it before? What's the toe-in-the the water step that gets you to move into what you're talking about as i said before those those five practices there's a working to advance a just cause was first we have to know what our just cause is what is what is a a vision of the future so idealistic that it for all practical purposes we will never achieve it

but we will commit our lives to helping advance towards that cause. You know, like the founding of the United States, our founding fathers wrote in the Declaration of Independence that they imagined a world in which all men are created equal and endowed with these unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We'll never get there. We will never get to a point where all people are equal in our country, but we will die trying. That is the point. That is the point of a vision, of an idealized future. That is the point of a just cause. And when we have a sense of just cause, it gives our work and our lives meaning. So the question is, what kind of world do we want to live in? And are we going to commit our lives, our jobs, our work, the energy that we expend in our friendships to help advance towards that just cause. What's ethical fading?

Ethical fading is a phenomenon that psychologists have written quite extensively about where people make unethical decisions believing that they are well within their framework of their own ethics. And there are many things that make ethical fading happen. So for example, an example of ethical fading is what we saw in the extreme happen at Wells Fargo Bank, where 5,000 employees opened 3.5 million fake bank accounts so that they could hit their financial goals, and yet very few of them thought that can rationalize. Everyone's doing it. Got to put food on the table. It's what my boss wants. It's the industry standard. That's my favorite one. It's the system. Right, right.

We can rationalize this unethical behavior, believing that we're acting ethically. We just sort of have no choice. Another one is the overuse of euphemisms. We see this rampant in business where we use words to distance ourselves from our actions. So for example, companies would never want to spy on their customers. That's unethical. But data mining, we love data mining. So we see these kinds of things all the time. We reduce head counts as opposed to using people's livelihoods to balance the books. We use these slippery words to help distance ourselves from the impact of our decisions. And if we do these things too often, we hit the slippery slope, which is another condition of ethical fading.

And eventually we find ourselves in an organization or as individuals where we're acting unethically on a regular basis thinking that nothing's wrong. Yeah. Until something breaks or there's basis, thinking that nothing's wrong. Yeah. Until something breaks, or there's a scandal, or something goes horribly wrong. But it certainly seems that within the infinite game, as you pointed out, there are lots of finite games going on, and this is kind of where you have to kind of go back and forth and you're thinking, yeah, I've got to get the plane out the door on time, but there's a bigger vision I also have to keep in mind. That's right. That's right.

And it's about balancing those things. And an infinite-minded player, an infinite-minded employee, an infinite-minded customer, we will understand that there's a bias, the bias of people over profit. That doesn't necessarily mean 90-10. It could be 51-49, but there's a bias that we will sooner do the right thing to protect someone at short-term financial cost rather than sacrificing human beings for the short-term financial gain.

I can see where, although this sounds like a great idea, but there would be some problems and some difficulties in adopting this infinite mindset because other people don't, for one thing. And even though we're playing in this infinite game, the world isn't wired that way. The world is a lot of finite games, and so it's hard to make this shift. That's right. That's why it takes courage. This isn't the way it always has been. You know, the concept of mass layoffs, where companies on an annual basis will use people's livelihoods so they can meet their arbitrary projections. This practice did not exist as a standard of doing business in the United States prior

to the 1980s. It just didn't exist. And the whole idea of incentivizing executives based on the performance of the stock price really wasn't the standard prior to the 1980s. And shareholder supremacy, where we prioritize the wants, needs, and desires of an outside constituency over customers and employees, really didn't exist prior to the 1980s and 90s. So it's only the past 30, 40 years that we've seen this steady rise of finite thinking. And it's done tremendous damage to our economy.

It's done tremendous damage to the way we live our lives. It's infiltrated politics. It's infiltrated hospitals. It's infiltrated education, where everybody's trying to win as opposed to help advance and protect and improve. And they put themselves against each other. And we, the patients, we, the students, we, the voters, we, the customers, capitalism, that we're all trying to build a better mousetrap. But that's always been the case. So what changed in the 80s and 90s? Well, there was a steady rise of finite thinking based on the thinking of an economist named Milton Friedman. He theorized that the responsibility of business was to maximize

profit within the bounds of the law. Well, what about ethics? He treated business like it was one-dimensional. It was just about money. Business is dynamic. 100% of customers are people. 100% of employees are people. 100% of shareholders are people. Business is not just about money. People are an integral part of business. And yet that definition that he proposed was embraced by leaders at the time and other theories started to show up like shareholder supremacy like the use of mass layoffs like a concept called rank and yank where we rank the performance of our employees and promote the top

10 percent and fire the bottom 10 percent these things do so much damage to a culture they do so much damage to the way we feel we show up to. And what we find now is a time and age where employees are not loyal to companies because, quite frankly, companies aren't loyal to employees. There's an entire generation of young people who are growing up that bounce from job to job to job, and they're accused of not having loyalty. And yet when we talk about the gold watch that people used to get at the end of their careers, there's an entire generation that has no idea what I'm talking about when I talk about the gold watch. And this is because companies do not offer their employees loyalty. So why should employees offer it back? This is not normal. And where are we?

Is it getting better or worse? Well, I think we're in the middle of it. The fact that people like me, that people even want to buy my books or interview me on podcasts, I think is a sign that we're moving in the right direction. I shouldn't have a career. I talk about trust and cooperation. There should be no demand for my work. But there is. If I were talking about these things in the 80s and 90s, you wouldn't want to talk to me. So I think we're moving in the right direction. It's a slow and bumpy road, but I'm optimistic for the future. As I said in the beginning, this is really a different way of looking at how we live our lives and how businesses and people interact. And it makes you think. Simon Sinek has been my guest. He is a speaker and author. His latest book is called The Infinite Game.

And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate you being here, Simon. Thanks. You're welcome, Michael. Thanks very much. And thanks for your help in giving me a platform to share my ideas. Really appreciate it. Hey, everyone.

Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with

Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover.

We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. As a parent, I look at my kids and their lives, and they seem so different in so many ways compared to when I was a kid. And parenting also seems different. And I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure it's all good. And someone who agrees that it's not all good is Madeline Levine. She is a psychologist who's written several books.

Her latest is called Ready or Not? Preparing Our Kids to Thrive in an Uncertain and Rapidly Changing World. Hi, Madeline. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, Mike. Thank you very much. So if you take a snapshot of parenting and kids today, as it compares to parenting and kids in the past, where are we? Are we stricter? Are we more lenient? Where are we?

I think we're much more intensive in our concept about what it takes to raise a child. And I think that has some positives associated with it, but I think it actually has more negatives associated with it. So parenting now is a kind of profession of cultivation. It's intensive. it's expensive, and it has built into it the assumption that what's best for children is this kind of constant oversight,

management, protection, accommodation, and there are reasons why I think those things are not in the best interest of children. And what are the ramifications of that? What is that kind of parenting, do you think, doing to kids? I think, and not just me, the World Health Organization says one in three kids has an anxiety disorder. That is, when I started writing, it was one in five. Things have not stayed the same.

They've gotten worse. And people know that their kids are really, really stressed. They know that. And so I think what parents are doing is trying to accommodate to anxiety in their kids in the wrong ways. So where is the stress coming from in the kids? Why are kids so stressed? They're stressed because, you know, there's this culture of, like, being outstanding at everything.

It's not enough to be an A student. It's supposed to be an A-plus student or a straight-A student. School, it's from four hours of homework a night. It's from the fact that parents are under the impression, as schools are feeding into it, that unless you get straight A's and you go to a really great selective school, like, you're doomed. I was talking to a woman this morning who was telling me about trying to talk to her kid who's a junior about he doesn't have to make the decision yet about school. He's worried about getting into Stanford. I'm in, you know, on the West Coast.

He's worried about getting into Stanford. And I'm coaching her on, well, you know, you don't have to worry about it quite yet, and there are lots of schools out there. And the kid says, you know, great mom, way to kill my dreams. So kids now have bought into a mythology. I think it's a mythology about what it takes to be successful. So the pressure comes from not enough sleep. A teenager needs, what, nine hours of sleep? They get on average six. It means they're sleep-deprived all the time. There is a constant drumbeat of performance. For young children, this is not what kids need. They need the time and the energy to explore, and they absolutely have to have titrated experiences of disappointment and failure and challenge

if they're going to master that as they move into adulthood. And they don't have that opportunity anymore. So what does that look like? What does that childhood look like that it isn't now? So here's what I think it would look like. I spoke to 600 people last night, and I asked if there was anybody in the audience who had never had their heart broken. 600 people, one person raised their hand, right? You will, and your child will have their heart broken at some point, and how do they prepare for that? They prepare for

it by having small, normal developmental experience of anxiety that we're not rushing in to accommodate to. I mean, the number of times somebody sits in my office and says, I can't stand to see my kid unhappy, my answer is always the same, which is, you're in the wrong profession. You have got to be able to tolerate your child being unhappy because how else are they going to learn that it's not the end of the world? And so I think what it would look like would be kids having more normal developmental experiences that they have to manage with their parents kind of standing on the sidelines. And that's not what's happening now.

Yeah, well, to those parents, this is normal. Your definition of normal isn't their definition of normal. You know, I'm not sure about that, Mike, because when I speak, there is a great deal of agreement. And it's not just me. I mean, you know, it's all my colleagues who are speaking and the people who are doing research. There is, in the very beginning when I was interested in this and writing about it, I got a lot of pushback, like, oh, Dr. Levine's trying to, you know, lower the bar because we want our kids to do really well and she wants to lower the bar because we want our kids to do really well,

and she wants to lower the bar, which is always funny to me because I'm a Jewish Ph.D. from New York, married to what my own family calls a real doctor, so we're not known for low bars, really, culturally. And it wasn't about lowering the bar, there was pushback that's 15 years ago not anymore there's no pushback anymore there's only the idea that how could i possibly enact what you're saying when everybody else in the community sees it differently sees it in this intrusive way, and I can't swim against the stream. So the notion that there's something wrong that can be remediated if I keep this kind of oversight

on my child. I think in the book I have this example of a kid who's taking calculus and the father is graphing every test that the kid takes. And the kid has trichotillomania, which is he's pulling out his eyebrows, he's pulling out his eyelashes and his hair. And when I see them, they say, he'll stop that when calculus is over. And that is no longer tracking every grade. But he won't stop it, because that's the way he's learned to manage anxiety. And by the way, he's taking calculus, and yet his father doesn't trust him to do the graphing. So, right? You know, it's just, it's kind of crazy. And, you know, people say things like, well, they can sleep when they get into Harvard. No, they can't. You know, you can't undo easily. You can't undo easily these kinds of lost opportunities to learn how to manage on your own. And I don't think anybody disagrees with that anymore. I just think that the fear

is so great that it gets in the way of people being able to effectuate it in their homes. And so what's the advice if you're a parent listening to you and you're saying, you know, here's the problem, here's all this anxiety, all right, but I don't know what it means to parent the way you're talking about what is it I do or stop doing. There are two words I always tell parents. You have to listen and you have to be curious, which parents aren't because they're so busy micromanaging. And listening is not sitting there for 10 seconds listening to your kid while you formulate, you know, your response to it. No kid has ever walked into my office, and I've been doing this 35 years, and said, you know, my parents just listen too much. No kid has ever said that.

Plenty of kids, most kids have said, my parents talk too much. So I think parents start with the exercise because it's not that threatening of could you just listen a little bit? Could you just be curious a little bit about what your kids are thinking? Because part of growing up is, you know, sort of trying out different ideas. Don't get excited when your kid says, I don't know, marijuana is the best thing in the world. Listen to them. See how they're thinking. Don't jump in too quickly.

And remember something about your own experience of growing up. Often ask, what do you remember most about growing up? And it's a question audiences like because they come, you know, they go back to childhood and they think about climbing up a tree or hiding from their parents, whatever. And remembering that your own childhood allowed you a degree of freedom that you are not allowing your children, and that the consequences of that may not show up when your kid is young, but it will show up later. You know, this whole thing about emerging adulthood, like where did that come from?

I didn't learn that in graduate school. This year I put six kids into emerging adulthood programs because they just didn't have basic skills. So I tell parents, you know, have your kid have a job. When they're in high school, my kids were construction in high school. That was a good job. It's hard. You stand on your feet.

You're responsible to your coworkers. Let your kid have chores around the house. Every kid in America knows how to get out of loading the dishwasher. And that's simply to say, oh, I have to go study for my AP history test, right? And then mom, who's been working all day long, says, don't worry, honey, I'll do it for you. If you want your kid to grow up and be part of a community, you're the first community. So let them have chores, make them responsible, be interested in them, be curious about them, and talk to other people about your level of anxiety. Because if one in three kids has an

anxiety disorder, by the way, one in three adults also has an anxiety disorder. So I can imagine parents listening to you and saying, well, wait a minute. I try to listen to my kid. I'll say, how was school? Fine. What did you learn today? Nothing. Right.

I'm listening, but there's nothing coming. And then when you say, I'll also, and then I'll let you comment, give my kids freedom. If I gave my kids the freedom they wanted, they'd be playing video games every waking moment. And I'm not going to allow that. Two things. In answer to your first one, nothing fine. First of all, you're talking about a teenager, right? If you ask your 8-year-old or a 7-year-old how school was, they're usually pretty enthusiastic.

And it's normative for a kid to say nothing. But that's okay. Knowing what is developmentally appropriate, like for a teenager to say nothing. That's fine. And at least you're not standing at the door ambushing them with how'd you do in school today or what grade did you get? So your persistent interest is good. And I promise you that at some point you'll start getting an answer to that question, but not in early or middle adolescence. That's just not the way those kids do things. And your second example of they'd be playing videos all day, none of this is to be interpreted as an abdication of responsibility

towards your children. It is not healthy for your kid to play video games all day. So that's a place where you actually do have to intervene and set rules and boundaries. Your job is to keep your kids safe. And sort of a realistic appraisal of this business about kids can't go out and it's too dangerous out there. It's unrealistic. It's the safest time to be a kid in America. Letting your kid play video games all day. So you should let them out and you should let them play.

Playing video games all day, not healthy for your kids. So that's a place where you have to set limits. That's your job as a parent. That whole notion of not letting your kids out, like when we were kids, you know, and parents said, you know, we'll see you at dinner, off you go, and you would go around on your bike with the neighborhood kids, and you'd go far. You could go far as long as you're home on time. This is one of the things that really strikes me as so odd,

and what I was trying to get at earlier is where did that come from? Because parents didn't used to think about danger the way they think about it now. I don't think it's so much income equality. There's something else going on that caused that change. Well, yes, and I don't feel like I have all the answers to that, for sure. I don't think anybody has all the answers to that. We've had this huge cultural shift, and I do think it's tied to a loss of trust in institutions in the world in the 24-hour news cycle, which makes it look like at any moment all hell can break loose.

Before I wrote about child development, I had a couple books on media, and my mentor was a guy named George Gerbner at the Annenberg School of Communication who coined the term mean world syndrome. And that was long before the 24-hour news cycle. And he had done a bunch of research there that showed that people who were exposed to more rather than less media felt the world was more dangerous. And so now, if you're watching and it's on constantly, it looks like the world is profoundly dangerous at all times. And I think that news cycle, without the attendant skills to evaluate what you're seeing has made people extremely fearful.

And I do think community, which had a salutary effect, like we're all in this together, has dissipated. So the world looks scary. I mean, how many times have you seen those images of kids walking out of schools crying with their hands up? It's terrifying. And the fact that it is not normative and it doesn't happen all the time, but I think people are on such high alert, and kids are on high alert. You know, kids have to see those same constant images that get eyeballs, because after all, eyeballs are what television and most media are all about,

makes it seem like it's a very mean world, when in fact all rights of file and crime are down. And yet you wouldn't know that based on the way a lot of parents parent, because there's a lot of this, you know, you can't play outside unless someone's watching you, you've got to play in the backyard, or you can't walk to school on your own. There is this fear that just didn't used to be. I think the media has been irresponsible in constantly replaying disturbing imagery over and over again. And I totally understand that, like I said before, you know, that's all about eyeballs. But it has had a really miserable social effect, cultural effect that's not insignificant. It's not like saying, oh, so what? So you don't let your kid ride to school. Big deal. It's not that simple. I mean, you've got to look at the causes of the causes, right? The cause is, well, I see this stuff on television. Well, you know, what's

underneath that? The 24-hour news cycle, a lack of community is underneath that, a sense of isolation. The Surgeon General says we're having an epidemic of loneliness. I think what the media tends to do is just look at the cause of things and not the causes of the causes, which is really where the action is at. And so when you understand that this comes from the media, and the media is only interested in eyeballs, and that's really not in the best interest of your child, and you've chosen a community that you could be more active in or talk to other parents.

I remember when I was raising my kids. My kids are grown. We all got together in the community and agreed, all the moms, we all agreed we would look out for each other's kid. Did that happen in your community? Not in a formal way, no. I think because everybody in the neighborhood knew each other and knew to look out for the kids.

But I think the net result is the same. My dad was a cop. And when I grew up, everybody on the block knew that that was the threat. And my father was the kindest person in the world. If you smoke behind the house or get in a car, you're going to have to see Officer Levine, right? And he never did anything to anybody, but the statement was, we've got eyes on you. It doesn't have to be my eyes, but we're paying attention to what you do. And that was part of the safety of the community. And what people think is safety now, which is this constant intervention, is anything but.

Because when your child actually runs into somebody that is threatening, maybe somewhere in his life, he won't have any skills for being able to differentiate the person who's just regular, which is the vast majority of people he'll meet, and somebody who might be threatening. He has no experience. He has no practice in that. And I think kids need practice in that. Well, to me, you're preaching to the choir. And you know, it's interesting, when I talk to parents and other people about this, I never come across the person who says, no, no, no, my kids need more helicoptering. My kids need more things scheduled on their day.

I don't hear that, but clearly there are people who must believe that. And frankly, I like your message better. Madeline Levine has been my guest. She's a psychologist and author of several books. Her latest is called Ready or Not? Preparing Our Kids to Thrive in an Uncertain and Rapidly Changing World. And there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you.

Thank you, Madeline. Thank you so much. For decades now, people have been talking about how we're moving towards becoming a cashless society, that we won't need to have cash in our pockets anymore. And for health reasons, that couldn't come soon enough. According to a report in Scientific America, the dollar bills in your wallet are contaminated with the grossest things in the world. And the fact that lower denomination bills, 5, 10s, and 20s, circulate more, it makes them really gross. Here's what the study found was on your paper money.

E. coli bacteria, which can make you sick and make you go to the bathroom a lot. Cocaine. Heroin. Yeast. Yeast is growing on your dollar bills. There's also mold. The flu virus. If it's humid or accompanied by mucus, it can survive on your money for 17 days. There's DNA from various animals, the white rhino included, according to the report. And then there's fecal matter. So after you touch money, wash your hands. And that is something you should know.

And when you're done washing your hands, share this is something you should know. And when you're done washing your hands, share this podcast with someone you know. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible

criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook.

Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run. 15 seasons,

327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers.

It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.