Something You Should Know - The Science Behind Why You Dream & Proven Negotiation Strategies We Can All Use

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Starting point is 00:00:17 You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, if you're carrying around regrets from your past, discover how to let them go. Then the fascinating science of dreaming, like why we so quickly forget most of our dreams. Dreams might have evolved to be forgotten to avoid people confusing elements that they dreamt about with waking life experiences. And in fact, dreaming itself is a really

Starting point is 00:00:59 tricky and unusual concept. Also, some easy ways to cut your heating bill and negotiating strategies anyone can do that will help you come out a winner. There's a lot of wisdom to being the person who puts the first offer on the table. I know every bone in our bodies want the other person to talk first. The reason why you want to open first is you're hoping to psychologically anchor the other party. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:01:44 Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy,

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Starting point is 00:02:52 Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. And we start with some practical advice you can use in your life today. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. We begin today talking about regret. Regret's a funny thing. Basically, regret is the act of revisiting past decisions or events, comparing them to what might have been, wishing they had been different, and then suffering emotionally because they're not different. Which, when you think about it, is completely pointless. Regret happens because almost every decision we make involves a road taken and a road not taken.

Starting point is 00:03:35 And the road not taken can hold potential regret. According to Hamilton Beasley, author of the book No Regrets, the big regrets are always hard to let go. But to start the process, he suggests you try telling yourself, I did the best I could do given the person I was and the events of the time. That can be very freeing for people who have felt very bad about how they responded to events in the past. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:04:11 Every night, you and I dream. And if you're like me, you don't remember a lot of your dreams, and often the ones that I remember don't really seem to make a whole lot of sense. So why do we dream? Are dreams just something your brain does to keep itself busy while you're sleeping? Or does dreaming serve a real purpose? And are dreams trying to tell you something? Do they mean things? Perhaps you've heard that if you dream you're falling, it means your life is out of control. Or if you're flying in your dream, that means something else. Really?

Starting point is 00:04:48 It turns out there's some real science to dreams. They have been and are studied. And one of the people at the forefront of dream research is Antonio Zadra. He is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Montreal and is a researcher at the Center for Advanced Research in Sleep Medicine. He's also author of the book, When Brains Dream. Hi Antonio, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you for having me. Delighted to be here.

Starting point is 00:05:18 So, when I'm dreaming, what exactly is going on in my head? Well, there's a lot that happens inside our minds and our brains when we dream, really much as when we are awake. In fact, when we look at brain activity in REM sleep, the sleep stage during which most vivid dreaming takes place, it really looks like a brain that is wide awake. So there is a lot going on from activating memory circuits, from structures that are responsible to generating emotions. And of course, our dreaming brain is busy trying to put together these narrative stories that make us think, react to the environment that it creates. These things we call dreams, which are for many people hard to remember, but that when we remember them often leave us feeling a little bit perplexed as to what was going on.

Starting point is 00:06:22 So when people dream, do most people dream as I dream in things that usually don't really make a lot of sense on the surface? They're, you know, the elephant turns into a cloud and becomes dinner and it made it like weird things like that. Is that pretty common? It certainly is quite common. And when people tend to remember their dreams, they tend to remember the dreams that they were having right before awakening in the morning. And the stage of sleep most robustly associated with vivid dreaming, a stage of sleep known as REM sleep or rapid eye movement sleep, tends to occur more strongly and last longer as our sleep period progresses. And it's at its maximum in the early morning periods before we wake up.

Starting point is 00:07:14 Do you believe, because I know, well, the big question is why do we dream? And some people say, well, it's your mind, you know, working on problems that if you learn to interpret what your dreams are, that you'll solve problems. Where are you in this and why do you think that? First of all, we think that dreams, independently of what goes on during sleep itself, really do serve an important psychological function. But we also think that dreams execute this function as they are happening online, if you want. And the reason we think that is that if dreams had to be remembered for them to have a function, then since we forget the overwhelming majority of our dreams,

Starting point is 00:08:04 the whole process would be really highly inefficient. And then for those people who rarely ever remember their dreams, dreams would have no function whatsoever. And so what is that function and how do you know that's the function? We can bring people into the lab and have them, while they are awake, practice different tasks. So memorize lists, try to come up with rules that guide different stimuli that are presented to them, or even a simple motor task, such as repeatedly typing a series of sequences on a keyboard, like 4-3-2-1, 4-3-2-1, 4-3-2-1. And then we allow these people to sleep.

Starting point is 00:08:47 And we know that merely sleeping can improve these people's performances, but we can go a step further and wake these people up and ask if they were dreaming. And we see that when these people have dreams that incorporate elements of these tasks, this too is related to their improved performances on the next day. And so dreams, just like sleep, seem to improve our ability to extract, for instance, just from a list of words or the rules governing complex probabilistic games, and essentially helps facilitate integration

Starting point is 00:09:28 of new information into the existing networks that we've built up over our lifetimes of related information with respect to these tasks. As you say, though, most of us don't remember our dreams and have little recollection or make sense of them. And so couldn't it just be that, in essence, your brain needs something to do while you're sleeping, so it's just firing things off and coming up with things that don't really mean anything? The idea that dreams are just a random product of the sleeping brain has been around for some time, but there's compelling evidence when you look at patterns of dream content by people who are depressed, non-depressed. In relation to our concerns, traumatic events, we see that dreams are far from being random. And even in our bizarre dreams, the elements aren't just put together haphazardly. The way that they are stitched together actually makes sense when we think of how our brain works

Starting point is 00:10:35 and how we are able to associate current life experiences to our past experiences. One of the things that always concerns me when people give a lot of credence to dreams is that they give too much credence to dreams. That because you dreamt about the ocean, it means this. If you dreamt you were falling, it means your life is out of control. And that worries me that that's just somebody making it up. I entirely share your point of control. And that worries me that that's just somebody making it up. I entirely share your point of view. And while I think that dreams are psychologically meaningful, or at least that some of them are, there's no unique singular meaning to them. And so the thing

Starting point is 00:11:19 that X means Y for anyone or for everyone, to me makes very little sense. I like to view dreams as works of art. And works of art are open to many interpretations and hold multiple meanings. And we don't have artists creating a work of art and going around and asking people, oh, look, can you please tell me what this means? And even if they did that, most people's interpretation of that artwork would probably fail to resonate with the artist. But this is exactly what many people

Starting point is 00:11:55 tend to do with their dreams. They look up what these elements mean in dream dictionaries or asking so-called dream experts. And so again, it's not to say that these things are devoid of meaning, but that the meanings we can find in dreams are very similar to the meanings we find in works of art. I know when I dream and I remember my dreams, and I guess like most people don't remember a lot of them, but sometimes dreams seem usually somewhat either disturbing or very powerful and they stick with me like the whole next day, but they never stick with me much longer than that.

Starting point is 00:12:34 They kind of like are on simmer in the back of my head all day, but by the next day they're always gone. Is that pretty common? Yes, indeed. Dreams are very difficult to recall. And even the ones that we remember, even the most fantastic or frightening ones, by and large, those memories tend to dissolve fairly quickly. So you may wake up one morning and have this fantastic dream that you tell your partner or someone. But by lunch hour, you might only be

Starting point is 00:13:06 remembering the core elements. And so it's really a small slice of the dreams that we do remember that stay with us for a long period of time. And so unless we write them down or somehow note them, the memory of dreams are very fragile and quickly start to fade. And we also think that dreams might have evolved to be forgotten to avoid people confusing elements that they dreamt about with waking life experiences. And in fact, dreaming itself is a really tricky and unusual concept. And when we look at how children, for instance, learn about dreams, we see lots of examples of this confusion. Most children start believing that dreams are real, that other people nearby can also see them. And it takes a while and guidance from parents and others until they've really come to appreciate that dreams are private, subjective experiences created within their minds.

Starting point is 00:14:12 And that once they wake up, there is no monster under the bed or hiding under the closet. We're talking about dreaming, why we dream, what we dream, what purpose it serves. And I'm speaking with Antonio Zadra. He's a professor at the Department of Psychology at the University of Montreal and author of the book, When Brains Dream. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest sword fight and dragon ride

Starting point is 00:15:05 positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness friendship honesty and positivity join me and an all-star cast of actors including liam neeson emily blunt kristin bell chris hemsworth among many others in welcoming the search for the silver lining podcast the go kid go network by listening today. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to something you should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

Starting point is 00:15:45 It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of

Starting point is 00:16:14 podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Antonio, I find that when I'm dreaming and then I wake up and I think,

Starting point is 00:16:35 ooh, that was an interesting dream, and so I try to recall it, the harder I try to remember it, the more the details of the dream slip away. Dreams, again, are very hard to recall. And so there's things that we can do to help hold on to those memories when we wake up in the morning. And so, for instance, if you wake up with an alarm, try to keep your eyes closed. Try to immerse yourself in the images that are still playing in your mind and try to review them all before you start your day. Keeping a dream journal, even if all you remember on some mornings are just a little fragment of a dream or an isolated image, are all things that can help you better remember your dreams. And as you keep a dream

Starting point is 00:17:26 journal, you'll also start seeing patterns that can emerge in your dreams. For instance, who are the characters that show up the most often? Where do the dreams take place? Are the settings known or unknown? And what kind of emotions do you feel? And so sometimes by examining patterns over a series of dreams, you can learn a lot more about yourself than by focusing on a singular dream or just some aspect of a dream. And to what end though, if dreaming is like looking at art, what can you possibly do with it? I mean, so I keep a dream journal and I know what I've been dreaming about and who I've been dreaming about and where I've been and all that and I start to see some patterns. So now what? Well, if you ask yourself some questions about these patterns and you try to

Starting point is 00:18:19 make links between these patterns, characters, emotions, settings, social interactions, be they positive or negative, and you try to link them up with events from your current life. So characters, you can think about, well, who does this dream character make me think of? What do I feel about them? In what way are they similar or different from the character in real life that you make me think about? That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I think that the function of dreams gets executed while you are asleep, regardless of whether or not you remember your dreams. So what you choose to do with the dreams you do remember is sort of like an added bonus. And people do use it for creativity or self-exploration or just for fun. And that's absolutely fine. But this is all sort of like the cherry on top of the sundae. The major work is being done by our brain while it is asleep. Well, I like that. Because I've

Starting point is 00:19:21 always thought that there's been far too much emphasis put on you know if you dream this then that means this and and then there's been those stories about i think i don't know was it einstein or somebody came up with some great invention in a dream so see you could do it too and i think well maybe but but that's so hit and miss. It just seems like we're putting too much stock in what dreams mean. It's not just putting too much stock into what dreams mean, but believing that dreams have this one singular meaning, that X means Y and Y means C. And there's really little to no evidence for that,

Starting point is 00:20:07 even though it might be amusing for some to engage in this. And you mentioned possible discoveries that come through dreams. And there's a whole slew of examples of inventions and fantastic creations from the song Yesterday from Paul McCartney to Frankenstein from Mary Shelley, and even some discoveries like the periodic table of the elements that have been attributed to dreams. And while these examples are quite salient and convincing, they're exceedingly rare. If we think that billions, literally billions of dreams are being dreamt every night, how many inventions are being made, how many patents, how many really great discoveries

Starting point is 00:20:54 are being made out of this? Well, precious few. And so these things can certainly happen. And another thing important to point out is that they happen to people who are immersed trying to figure out solutions to problems over months or years. So when people bring up the example of Einstein or the discovery of the periodic table of the elements, in these cases, these scientists were immersed in these difficult problems and trying to wrap their heads around possible solutions pretty much 24-7 for months at a time. And so for them, it was a really pressing concern. But there too, the solution often doesn't come pre-packaged in the dream, but it's through thinking about the

Starting point is 00:21:47 dream while awake that clarifies sometimes some of these processes. Well, and I've had ideas that in my dreams, and then when I woke up and remembered them, they were the dumbest ideas. They seemed really good in the dream, but it didn't seem really good in the light of day. Absolutely. And many people have this kind of sentiment. You know, we wake up and we want to share this dream, but usually the person we are sharing it with is much less enthused about the content of our dreams than we are. That's right. That's the dumbest thing

Starting point is 00:22:27 i've heard that oh no that's a terrible idea so i want to get your thoughts on lucid dreaming there's been a lot of talk about that over the over recent years that if you can let yourself know in your dream that you're dreaming all all kinds of wonderful things can happen. Your thoughts? I got into dream research because of a lucid dream that I had in college. And so I know how powerful or impactful these kinds of dreams can be. That being said, I disagree with many people who talk about lucid dreaming in that how easy it is to learn to have lucid dreams and when in a lucid dream, you can do anything you want. But the truth of the matter is that it's much harder than many people make it out to be to learn to have lucid dreams and even more difficult to stay lucid in your lucid dreams. That is, it's very easy to get distracted in our dreams or to forget that we are dreaming. And so lucid dreaming can be a lot of fun,

Starting point is 00:23:34 but it's really hard work to learn to have them. Or if we have them on occasion, about 20% of the population will have them about once a month, which isn't really all that much. And we also know that about half of lucid dreamers, including proficient ones, say that they are unable to really control or influence their dreams. Why is it that we can surprise ourselves or scare ourselves in our own dreams? If we're creating the dream, how can it be a surprise? You're not really creating the dream. Your sleeping brain is. And it's creating two things. It's creating you, that is, it's placing you in this dream narrative, which is immersive. And it's also creating this virtual world in which

Starting point is 00:24:26 you find yourself complete with these characters that may make us fall in love with them or entice us or chase us or make us angry. So you dream of an ex-lover, you dream of an angry boss, of an old friend you haven't seen in ages who's so happy to see you again. And so the surprise shouldn't be all that surprising because all of these elements that your brain is creating, and some of them are really quite fantastical and bizarre, are being created by parts of your brain that you do not have conscious access to within the dream. And to me, that is one of the most fascinating aspects of our dream experiences. And probably that's partly at least why people have attributed some sort of predictive power to dreams that since it's coming from some

Starting point is 00:25:21 place that you don't control, Maybe it's telling you the future, which I assume, I don't know if anybody studied it, but it seems pretty ridiculous that you could predict the future in your dreams. The idea that dreams can predict the future has been around for a long time. So yes, part of this comes from our desire to understand where do dreams come from? And so to the extent that people have believed that dreams come from the gods or external worlds, that they take place in real physical environments, or that they are messages sent to us, then people think, well, maybe some of this is happening so that we can predict the future. But indeed, there's precious little evidence for that. And even when there are reports of dreams predicting the future, many of these can be explained. For instance, when there's a

Starting point is 00:26:20 volcanic eruption or a plane crash somewhere, it's not that unusual for me to get a few emails by people telling me, you know what, I had a dream about a plane crash two nights ago, and now this event happened. How do you explain that? But there's probably people dreaming about plane crashes somewhere, sometime, every night of our lives. And again, because billions of dreams are being dreamt every day. So if you dream that there's been a plane crash or a volcanic eruption or a tsunami, and you wait one day, two days, a week, two weeks, and nothing happens, you're not going to write to me and say, guess what i dreamt of this fantastic catastrophe and you know what it is yet to happen so we are sort of biased to see these correspondences when

Starting point is 00:27:14 they occur and if there's nothing that corresponds to our dream then we tend to forget about it right but so yeah but also just the the fact that dream so much, there's also coincidence that could occur that you dream so many dreams in your life that perhaps sooner forgotten are still stored in our memory circuits, and that these memories can be activated by things that we see or do or experience during wakefulness. And so it might just so happen that during your day, you see this black cat cross the street, and then this triggers a memory of a dream that you've had of a black cat. And you go, oh my gosh, I dreamt about this. But you probably have thousands, if not tens of thousands of these kinds of dreams that are stored. And so, as you mentioned, some of these connections just occur by chance. But of course, being the people who we are, we search for explanations for these

Starting point is 00:28:28 kinds of events, even though some of them have no explanations. Well, I'm sure there isn't a person listening who hasn't often wondered about their dreams, why they dream what they dream and what it means. And this is really interesting to get some scientific background to what dreaming is all about. My guest has been Antonio Zadra. He is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of Montreal and a researcher at the Center for Advanced Research in Sleep Medicine. His book is called When Brains Dream, and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you for being here.

Starting point is 00:29:08 Appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you very much. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest

Starting point is 00:29:25 advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

Starting point is 00:29:59 I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life.

Starting point is 00:30:17 So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. When you hear the word negotiation, you likely think of buying a car or maybe a house, or you think of some high-level corporate negotiation. But we all negotiate in our lives every day. And understanding how negotiation works and learning strategies that will help you succeed, that's important. Dr. Leigh Thompson is a professor at Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, where she teaches MBA and executive education courses. She's the author

Starting point is 00:30:58 of 10 books, including Negotiating the Sweet Spot, The Art of Leaving Nothing on the Table. Hi, Leigh. Welcome. Hi. I'm thrilled to be here. Nice to meet you, Mike. So I know a lot of people don't like the idea of negotiation. It seems kind of sleazy or phony. They'd really rather not do it. So why is it that negotiation has such a bad reputation? People don't like negotiation because almost by definition, we think of it as a competitive sport. I want low, you want high. I want to go right, you want to go left. And that's what we call the

Starting point is 00:31:40 fixed pie perception. And it's gotten so much so that once people find out that you're taking a negotiation class, they run from you because they think that you're going to use these tools against them. And in some sense, the heartbreaking fact is that that impression of negotiation as kind of win or lose, kind of fix some, zero some, is false most of the time. Most of the time, there's an opportunity for what I call a sweet spot solution, what I think historically has been called a win-win solution. And the idea of negotiation is, I mean, everything is seemingly a negotiation. We negotiate all day long with everybody, but somehow a formal negotiation with the car salesman or at work with the boss or something, that takes on all this fear. And Mike, I love the premise of your question because you're absolutely right. From the moment you and I both woke up this

Starting point is 00:32:46 morning, we were negotiating. We didn't code it as such, but one of my negotiations this morning, this is going to tell you about my life, is who was going to wake up early to make sure our daughter got up in time to take her Zoom course. And so that was a negotiation I had with my husband that involved, well, somebody else agreeing to plan for dinner tonight. And even though that seems kind of like a silly, homey example, the point is, is that anytime you can't get what you want without the cooperation of somebody else, you're negotiating. And we do it all the time. Now, when you and I walk into the car dealer example that you mentioned, or we walk into the boss's office to negotiate a raise, that's what we call a

Starting point is 00:33:33 scripted negotiation, which means that there's books written about it. There is usually a memo that precedes it. There's a list of do's and don'ts, and those are really important negotiations. Don't get me wrong. I just sold a house, never met the people because of the pandemic. Those are really important negotiations. But I think all those other unscripted negotiations that occur with people that we love and we're in long-term relationships with, that's where we want to try to find more sweet spots. And so explain what you mean by a sweet spot and tell me how to find it. I will tell you a story that kind of changed my whole life. So when I was a young graduate student,

Starting point is 00:34:26 I read this story. It seems so corny. It's about two sisters and they're fighting over a single orange. And the sisters, by definition, have a long-term relationship. There's a lot of love, a lot of history, but there's only one orange. So they haggle and they fight. And then they finally decide, well, let's just split it in half. Even Steven, right? Let's make a fair solution. One sister takes her half, squeezes out the juice and throws the peel away. Other sister takes her half, carefully zests the peel to make orange scones and

Starting point is 00:34:52 throws the juice away. And then the garbage truck comes and goes. And it's only then that they look at each other and say, oh my goodness, this whole time, I didn't realize that we wanted completely different parts of the orange and now it's too late. Now that's a totally ridiculously silly story. I mean, please, who's fighting over oranges? But when I created a scientific scenario, if you will, that contained a sweet spot, just like the sister's solution, and then I use that in my research. I was stunned at how often people are cutting oranges in half instead of finding that sweet

Starting point is 00:35:35 spot. And so that's really what has motivated almost everything I've done in this field because the sisters had no idea until the garbage truck came and went. But a lot of times you and I might be engaging in negotiations and not realizing, hey, Mike, there was probably a better way. So my response to that when I hear you say that is, I've heard that or variations of that orange peel, orange splitting story before. I don't ever find my negotiations to be that way. There, it isn't, that would be great, but it isn't that. It's you, high and low. It's what you were talking about before. If negotiations just contain one issue or one dimension, such as, well, what is going to be the payment plan? And will you throw in some of the weather tech floor mats? I mean, this is kind of a silly example right here, but the moment that a negotiation can be, in some sense, carved up into more than just a single issue, then the potential

Starting point is 00:37:08 for the sweet spot is there. And what I found in my research is that it's rare that negotiations are just a single issue. A used car, absolutely. But I just worked with a young woman who was negotiating her very, very first, what I call kind of professional career job. And of course, salary is a huge dimension. And I asked her, what do you care about? And obviously, everybody cares about salary. You'd be crazy not to. But in this case, it was interesting. She was getting a signing bonus, which was separate than salary. Then there was a question of, now that we're in the pandemic, coming out of it, what was her kind of work from home policy? Then there was even kind of this interesting thing about some kind of childcare. In other words, by the time she and I finished talking, her list had

Starting point is 00:38:08 about six things on it. And that's when I think both of us realized there's probably an orange here somewhere. So whenever people come to me, and they come to me a lot, and they just tell me it's about money. I bend over backwards to try to explore, is there another part of this orange? Is it the seeds? Is it the rind? Is it the pulp? Sometimes they say no, but a lot of times there's something else. And so what are some of the strategies, the, I don't know what, yeah, I guess strategies it would be in terms of like getting in tune with who you're negotiating with, finding common ground, just some of the techniques that help things go smoothly and help you get your way. It's about really having the important conversation. So I'll share one of my favorite strategies with you because I did this research study because so many people came up to me saying, it's best to keep a poker face in a negotiation. And I think that that's kind of a slang expression that means don't reveal anything, don't show any emotion,

Starting point is 00:39:24 and for heaven's sake, don't be the first person to put any cards on the table. You know the whole story. So I did a controlled research study. With permission, I videotaped people. And I had some people within five minutes signal to the opponent what their value drivers were, kind of what they cared about, like, hey, Mike, I care about the orange, or I care about this particular type of daycare situation, whatever it might be. I had some people ask questions, and then I had the proverbial control group, which was do anything you dang well want. And it was absolutely astounding to me

Starting point is 00:40:01 that the control group crashed and burned. What I mean is that they split the orange in half. The people who revealed some of their value drivers, what they cared about, they kind of sent some signals. And the people who asked questions were much more likely to find the sweet spot. So I guess one of my favorite strategies is if anybody tells you to keep a poker face, then be prepared to accept only half of an orange. Because if you don't reveal a dang thing, I don't see how we can find, in some sense, the mutual gains that are there. So that's one of my favorites. Another one that I really like, because I think it hits close to home with me, is this whole idea of anger management. Because I think when you and I, when people are negotiating, emotions can run high.

Starting point is 00:41:02 People can feel entitled and bang their fists on the table. Anger is in some sense, a sweet spot deal killer, because when I get angry, I have statistically increased the likelihood that Mike is going to get angry and then it just spirals. So what I tell people is the minute you start to feel angry, try to pivot to disappointment. Now, Mike, I know that sounds a little silly, but what's interesting is that disappointment is what we call a complimentary emotion, not a reciprocal emotion. So when I say, gosh, Mike, I'm disappointed. I really thought you would like this particular deal that I was offering you. Your emotional instinct is to try to repair that disappointment, which could result in

Starting point is 00:41:55 you and I having a negotiation breakthrough. Anger is not a complimentary emotion. It's a reciprocal emotion. I get angry, you get angry, I get more angry. So the reason I like that one is you can't tell people to calm down. I mean, that's silly, but you can tell them, take all that anger that you're feeling and try to express disappointment because that way the opponent might try a little bit of repair action. But when you say, you know, don't be afraid to put some cards on the table, the conventional wisdom is that you hold things close to the vest.

Starting point is 00:42:36 And again, using buying a car as an example, if you let the car dealer know just how much you love this car, well, they're going to try to get you to spend more money knowing you don't want to leave without that car. So it's better to keep a poker face and be willing to walk away. Yes, I love your example. So think what I tell a lot of my students and a lot of people that I work with is think about having two kinds of cards in your negotiation hand. One card might be, gosh, I really want the car. I really love that particular color of champagne or light blue or whatever the deal is. I think it's okay to reveal that. The card that you never want to reveal is your BATNA. Now I just threw something on the table here. So let me explain what a BATNA is. B-A-T-N-A. It's an acronym. It's your best alternative to a negotiated agreement. So in other words, what you don't want to tell the car dealer is, gosh, Mike,

Starting point is 00:43:39 car dealer, I have searched all of the Midwest. You are the only dealership who happens to have this particular model. I desperately want it and I have no alternatives. I mean, that's a recipe for negotiation disaster. What you want to do is you want to signal that, you know, I have a lot of options that I could exercise, but I'm on your car lot right now and I'm seeing a car I like very much. And if you can do X and Y and meet me at this particular price and throw in these features or whatever I care about, you know, I'll buy today. So I guess the way I'd wrap this up is you always have a BATNA, keep that close to your chest, never reveal that because that's when you're

Starting point is 00:44:27 going to lose your leverage. But as far as telling the other person that, you know, I like red more than blue. I like four wheel drive more than front wheel drive. I mean, I'm going to quickly, you know, in some sense, embarrass myself because I'm not a car person, but I think you get the idea. That information is okay to signal. I've not been able to find any scientific evidence that that will backfire on you. What will backfire on you right quick is if you signal to the other person, you're the only person who's looked at my house in four months, Mike. I really hope you buy it. I think you and I would both agree that that is not what you want to do, is signal to the other person, I don't have a plan B.

Starting point is 00:45:18 What about the traditional, typical negotiating advice of always ask for more than you want, always say, start with no, be willing to walk away, those kinds of things. Okay. I love it because I'm going to unpack every single one of those. So let's start with the first one, which is always ask for more than you want. Here's what I suggest. I think that there's a lot of wisdom to being the person who puts the first offer on the table. I know every bone in our bodies want the other person to talk first because somebody's told us that. But what we've found in the research is that that's not really backed up by scientific evidence. The reason why you want to open first is you're hoping to psychologically anchor the other party. So let's say you open

Starting point is 00:46:14 first. The danger of me asking for something wildly outrageous is that it leads to what's called the chilling effect. Mike says, oh my gosh, Lee has just totally floored me with her ridiculous offer. I think she's crazy. I'm going to take the earlier train back to the city. So what you want to do is you want to open up with a stretch goal, but you don't want to make it seem that you're being demanding. You want to say, you know, Mike, I've thought a lot about this in the spirit of us starting a conversation, in the spirit of dialogue, I'm going to put something on the table that's obviously attractive for me, would love to hear your thoughts. So you want to kind of think about how can you present your offer

Starting point is 00:47:05 with open arms? Because what you want to do is you want to start a game of tennis. You want offer and counter offer. You don't want to do something silly, like say, take it or leave it. So that's what I would say as far as how to open with that stretch goal. I teach a lot of my students how to make a bolstering offer. And I'll explain what that means, Mike, because a lot of my students, a lot of people will ask me, Lee, should I open up with a point offer or a range? I mean, it could be a salary, it could be something else. And I say, look, either make a bolstering range offer or make a point offer. Do not make what's called a bracketing range offer. So if I secretly want

Starting point is 00:47:51 you to pay me $100,000, I'm just making up a number. I don't know what we're talking about, but I don't want to say, hey, Mike, how about somewhere between 90 and 110? Because Mike is only going to hear the 90. So you either want to come in with a point offer, a hundred thousand something, or you want to say, well, you know, I'm thinking of somewhere between a hundred and 120. And I don't know what we're negotiating, but I always use a hundred thousand dollars because it just sounds like a nice, sounds like a nice number. If the other person has read that book too and beats you to it and makes the opening offer and it's pretty aggressive, you want to immediately counter offer. You don't want to, in some sense, chastise them.

Starting point is 00:48:42 You don't want to say, hey, Mike, who the heck do you think you are? I mean, save the rant for the dinner table conversation. What you want to do is say, hey, Mike, I'm a little bit blown away here, but let me put my number on the table. Hold on to your seat because it's dramatically different from what you just said, but that gives us a lot to talk about, doesn't it? So what I'm saying is that always prepare your opening offer before you meet the other person, because if they beat you to it, you don't want to be psychologically anchored by them. And walking away? Walking away is a threat.

Starting point is 00:49:29 When I say take it or leave it, I've just made a threat. When I've said, Mike, this is my last offer, those are threats. If I kind of start to close my briefcase metaphorically speaking, virtually speaking, that's a threat. I tell my students, you know, don't play your threat card in the first quarter of a negotiation because you don't have street cred. You need to build up threats. The whole idea of making a threat, and I've defined threat as anytime you basically say, unless you do X, I'm leaving, what you want to do when you make a threat is you want to get that person either back to the table, you want to get that person

Starting point is 00:50:12 to improve their offer. And in order for them to do that, you need to say, you know, Mike, we've been having a discussion for the past 45 minutes. I have tried a number of things. I've been brainstorming. I've been asking questions. And I'm starting to get a little bit pessimistic. And I'm thinking that we may not be able to work this out. I think that's going to have much more of an impact on your behavior than if I come into the negotiation and in the first five minutes start to be the tough person. So in some sense, threat should be your last resort. So there is this school of thought, this phrase win-win negotiation, which I think some people interpret as that not only do you want to get what you want, but you want to make sure that the other person gets what they want.

Starting point is 00:51:07 And I've always felt that, you know, it's not my job to help the other person get what they want. That's up to them. That's in a negotiation. They need to do that, and I need to look out for my interests. Is negotiation a situation where I'm supposed to take out for my interests. Is negotiation a situation where I'm supposed to take care of your interests? No, by definition, it really is game on.

Starting point is 00:51:33 But what I also tell these folks is that I think that 98.9% of all of our negotiations are long-term. Gone are the days where I'm never going to see you again because all it takes is for you to post negative feedback about me on whatever user forum we're talking about. So I think, why should we have two playbooks for a negotiation, long-term and short-term? I think everything is long-term. I think in some sense, the virtual era has given us in some sense, an indelible, everything you do or say is going to be recorded. So just have one playbook. And it's kind of what I call the long-term relationship

Starting point is 00:52:19 playbook, where in some sense, I want you to feel good enough about me to make sure that we have some kind of future because, you know, I think that would be great for us to continue to do profitable business together. But you're a grown up and I'm a grown up. And so, you know, I expect you to be prepared and bring your best game. I know I will. Well, as you know, there are a lot of, quote, negotiation experts, unquote, and it's really interesting to hear your take on it because you've got some science and research to back up the things you're saying. And I think everybody could use some help in all of the negotiations we have to do in life. My guest has been Dr. Lee Thompson. She is a professor at

Starting point is 00:53:03 the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, and she's author of the book, Negotiating the Sweet Spot, The Art of Leaving Nothing on the Table. And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Professor. Well, I really enjoyed our discussion, Michael. Thank you so much for making this possible. I appreciate it. As I'm sure you know, it can get very expensive to heat your house in the wintertime. And while there's no magic way to make those heating bills disappear, you could save up to 5% by doing a few simple things. First of all, lock your windows. May not seem like much, but pushing each window deep into its track creates a tighter seal so less heat seeps out. And think about the fans in your house. It is true that ceiling fans put on reverse mode will help push hot air down to where you need it.

Starting point is 00:54:03 And also keep in mind that bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans have the opposite effect. They suck warm air right out, so use them sparingly. Think humidity. Moist air feels warmer than dry air. And by running a humidifier, you can actually drop your thermostat by three degrees and feel just as warm. And perhaps you should move some of your furniture. To avoid spending money heating the space under the sofa, just make sure that furniture is moved out from the wall to let the heat circulate. And that is something you should know. I ask for ratings and reviews at the end of almost every episode because they really do help us and I like to read them.

Starting point is 00:54:47 So please just take a moment, take a moment and write a quick review of this podcast and post it wherever you listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Starting point is 00:55:20 Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

Starting point is 00:55:36 But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The

Starting point is 00:56:14 Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - The Science Behind Why You Dream & Proven Negotiation Strategies We Can All Use

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