Something You Should Know - The Secret to Being More Resilient & Why Thrill Seekers Do What They Do

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, when was the last time you and your partner held hands? I'll explain why you should do it soon. Then, do you ever wish you were more resilient in the face of tough times? One of the things that we get very wrong about resilience is we feel that resilience is about toughness by itself. That a resilient person is someone that doesn't feel sad, doesn't feel unhappy. And yet, all of those emotions are necessary to become more resilient.

Starting point is 00:01:02 Also, the most likely reason your check engine light comes on. And thrill-seekers. Why some of us are and some of us aren't. I think a lot of people think of thrill-seeking as something a person does, but I think of it as who a person is. It can affect their work, it can affect the foods they like, the things they do for fun, and what kind of traveling they like to do. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:01:55 Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Oh, hi. Hey, welcome. It's another episode of Something You Should Know. Young couples in love do it all the time, and older couples would be well advised to do it too, and that is to hold hands. Seems to do a lot of good. Research shows that physical intimacy of

Starting point is 00:02:27 any kind improves a relationship, whether it's mother and infant or a married couple. But it also turns out that people in stressful or threatening situations remain calmer and cope better when they hold hands with their mate. It also seems to have a beneficial effect on pain and can lower the level of stress hormones that can do damage to your immune system. In fact, even monkeys know the importance of hand-holding. Monkeys have been observed holding hands in reconciliation after a fight. And that is something you should know. Have you ever wished you were more resilient,

Starting point is 00:03:10 that you could bounce back from those tougher events in life and not let them beat you down? I think a lot of us wish we were a little tougher that way. And as it turns out, you can be, according to Akash Kariya. Akash has really studied this. He is a keynote speaker and writer, and one of the books he's written is called Seven Things Resilient People Do Differently. Hi, Akash. Welcome. Thanks, Mike. Great to be on here.

Starting point is 00:03:39 So what is resilience? How do you define it? How do you look at it? What is it to you? Resilience to me is about your ability to bounce back, but to bounce back stronger than you were before. So it's not just about getting back to where you were prior to the adversity. It is more about how do you use the adversity that you encounter in your life and then come back a better person as a result of it? How do you become more resourceful? How do you become more mentally, physically, emotionally

Starting point is 00:04:12 stronger as a result of whatever challenge you went through? So that to me is resilience, bouncing back stronger than you were. And where do you think it comes from? It does seem to me anyway that there are some people who just seem to have more of that water off a duck's back, nothing bothers them. Whereas other people just get so sunk in problems that they can't shake it off. Where do you think it comes from? There are some people who are naturally more resilient than others, who sort of have the attitudes that allow them to bounce back quicker. They have that perseverance. They have that grit, as Angela Duckworth calls it. But what the research is showing us nowadays is that it's almost like a

Starting point is 00:04:57 muscle that you can train. So everyone has different densities of muscle, different sizes of muscles. But if you go to the gym, and you put in the work and you train it, that muscle grows, becomes stronger, becomes bigger. Similarly, resilience to me is a muscle. You're born with it, but then you can also train it, you can develop it, that then makes you able to deal with life's adversities in a much more capable manner. So to me, it's something that in a much more capable manner. So to me, it's something that can absolutely be trained. But I think people think that in order to become more resilient,

Starting point is 00:05:35 you have to toughen up, that you have to get beat up a lot, and that the more you get beat up, the less each punch hurts because you're getting beat up a lot, and I'd really rather not get beaten up a lot. I don't think anyone wants to get beaten up. And I don't think that is the goal of resilience. And no one goes out thinking, I'm going to get beaten up so that I can become more resilient. But what we try and do in order to build our resilience is take on micro challenges. So imagine for a second that you have a circle of comfort all around you. So imagine the

Starting point is 00:06:07 circle of comfort. Those are the things that you are able to do naturally. Those are within your talents. Those are within your comfort zones. In order to become more resilient, what we want to do is to take on tasks or take on adversity that is just a little past that circle of comfort. So you're not pushing yourself so far that you're killing yourself, but you're going a step further that just stretches your comfort zones and allows you to build that muscle. Again, it's like going to the gym. When you go to the gym, if you're able to generally lift seven kilos for 10 reps, this time around, you might try seven and a half kilos, that micro challenge for 10 reps. A little bit of extra weight, an extra repetition is how you build the resilience muscle without

Starting point is 00:06:56 killing yourself. Okay. So that makes sense. You take little steps outside your comfort zone. That way, if you fail, you don't get beaten up so bad. But even still, those little disappointments can still take a toll on you. So how do you keep trying and failing and keep going? There's several habits that allow someone to be more resilient. There's certain emotional habits that you can tap into in order to be more resilient. There's

Starting point is 00:07:24 certain physical habits that you can tap into. And there's certain mental habits that you can tap into in order to be more resilient. There's certain physical habits that you can tap into. And there's certain mental habits that you can tap into. So we'll start with a physical habit as an example. So I learned this from Tony Robbins. And one of the things that he talks about is that your emotions come from motion. Emotion comes from motion. What does that mean? It means that the way that you move your body determines how you feel.

Starting point is 00:07:48 So, Mike, if you'll play along with me for a second, I want you to go ahead and sit the way that you were sitting if you're feeling sad or depressed. How would you sit right now? Just take on that posture for a second. And everyone else who's listening, just try and go ahead and do that right now. All right. So Mike, are your shoulders back or are they slumped? Oh, they're slumped. Yeah, they're slumped. Is your chest collapsed or is it up straight and back?

Starting point is 00:08:16 Collapsed. How are you breathing? Are you breathing deep from your belly or is it more shallow breathing? Very shallow. And so there's a whole physiology around when we become sad, when we become depressed, that leads us to feel that way. So our emotions are not something that just come out of nowhere. Our emotions are something that we create through our physiology and through our focus. Now, if you wanted to change how you feel, one really cool

Starting point is 00:08:45 tactic is just change the way that you move your body. Stand up straight, hold your shoulders back, breathe deep from your belly, flood your body with oxygen, flood your bloodstream with oxygen, and that creates a chain reaction that makes you feel better. This is one of the reasons that people love physical exercise. Research has found that when people are depressed, physical exercise can help people feel significantly better as much as if they were taking a pill. Physical exercise is equivalent in some cases in terms of the improvement and mood as taking a pill. That's because once you change your body, it changes how you feel. So that's one of the habits in order to become more resilient. When you're feeling in a certain state, ask yourself, what emotion am I

Starting point is 00:09:36 creating through how I'm moving my body? How am I standing? How am I sitting? How am I breathing? And becoming aware of your physiology is one of the best things that you can do in order to manipulate your emotions and your resilience to be where you want to be. Well, it's interesting because I think most people think, I think, I've always thought that when you sit that way, when your shoulders are hunched, your chest is collapsed, and you're kind of drooping, that that's the result of feeling sad. It's not the cause of feeling sad. And what you're saying is that it sort of is, that if you change that, it will bring

Starting point is 00:10:14 you up. So think about a time when you had a great workout. Maybe you love running. Maybe you love yoga. Maybe you love lifting weights or maybe you love hiking. Whatever it is, imagine the mood that you were in before you engaged in the activity and then now imagine going and putting yourself through this strenuous workout where you're actually using energy to perform that workout. How do you feel at the end? You've used energy and yet you feel more energetic. Why is that? It's because you've moved your body in a certain way that

Starting point is 00:10:53 changes your emotions. So yes, your emotions do cause your physiology to be in a certain way, but it also works the other way around. When you change your physiology, your emotions then change naturally because your physiology has changed. So I'd say that that's one of the coolest links that you can use, the link between physiology and your emotions. It also seems just from my experience that so if I do a workout and I'm like really exhausted, I can think, oh my God, I'm just I'm so beat up. I'm so exhausted. Or I can change my thinking that, oh my god, this feels great. And just that small change in the way I'm thinking about what I just did helps. Absolutely. And so now we go on into the mental habits. There are certain mental habits that can make you more resilient and that can make you happier.

Starting point is 00:11:48 So one of those mental habits is what are you focusing on? Where is your energy flowing in terms of what you're thinking about? Are you focusing on the things that are within your control or are you focusing on the things that are outside your control? In psychology, they call this locus of control. That is, do you believe that your circumstances are the result of what you can do? Do you feel that you have the power to change them or do you feel that stuff around you, your life, is a result of outside circumstances? And research shows us that people who have an internal locus of control, that is,

Starting point is 00:12:26 they focus on the things that they can control in their life, and they feel that they have the ability to change their environment and their surroundings through the actions that they take, are happier, are more satisfied, and are more successful. And so one really cool shift is to think of when you're feeling in an unempowered state, when you're feeling in a disempowered state, ask yourself, where is my focus right now? Am I focusing on external activities that is not within my control? And if so, how can I change that focus to the stuff that I can control? What can I do in this given situation to make my life a little bit better? And again, that is easier said than done. But once you make that shift in terms of your focus, you'll find that you get a completely

Starting point is 00:13:17 new answer because your focus has shifted. Your focus has shifted to something that you can control. And therefore, that gives you a completely new response. And everybody who hears you say that knows exactly what you mean. Because we've all had times where we, I don't know, we just bump into it or it accidentally happens. But we have that mental focus. And everything, you know, the world opens up. And then there are times when your focus is, as you say,

Starting point is 00:13:46 on external things you have nothing to control, you can't control. And it just, it's so debilitating. And can I give you a good example of this? Yeah. Just from my life. When COVID hit, my business is that of a speaker. So I traveled around the world speaking on resilience, on well-being, and on habits at conferences around the world. So when COVID hit, that dramatically impacted my business because suddenly all the conferences were shut down. That meant that my source of income, my source of livelihood was completely gone. And so there were some days where I just lay in bed thinking about the state of the world and feeling sad and unhappy about this event that I was unable to control.

Starting point is 00:14:33 There's nothing I can do about COVID except for feel sad and bad about it. And then I changed my focus to, look, what can I do about this? How can I transition and pivot my business and emerge stronger as a result of this pandemic that is happening and so I decided that I was going to start out doing virtual programs I was going to use the time to improve my foundations my website my my branding and all the things that go into my business. And once I did that, once I set up these virtual programs, I learned how to do them. I learned to set up the tech. This year has ended up being one of the most productive years of my life, simply because I changed my focus to feeling sad about something that I can't control, to thinking, what can I do from this? And how can

Starting point is 00:15:22 I get better as a result of whatever is happening around me? We're talking about how to be more resilient. And my guest is Akash Kariya. He is author of the book, Seven Things Resilient People Do Differently. Bumble knows it's hard to start conversations. Hey, no, too basic. Hi there. Still no.

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Starting point is 00:16:11 thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. So, Akash, in that example you just gave, when COVID hit and it affected your business,

Starting point is 00:16:42 you said the first thing you did was lie in bed and feel sad. And I'm wondering, do you think that's a necessary step? Do you have to give, when things go wrong, do you have to give yourself permission to feel bad about it first before you can then come back and be resilient? You know, Mark, that's a great question. And I think one of the things that we get very wrong about resilience is we feel that resilience is about toughness by itself, that a resilient person, a mentally tough person is someone that doesn't feel sad, doesn't feel unhappy, doesn't feel these emotions that we generally think of as negative. And yet, all of these emotions, sadness, unhappiness, anger, frustration, guilt, whatever that may be, all of those emotions are necessary to

Starting point is 00:17:33 help you become more resilient. And here's why. When life doesn't go your way, when expectations don't meet your reality, it is very natural to feel disappointed, angry, frustrated, whatever emotional home you have, whatever you go to on a general basis, that emotion that you generally tap into when things don't go your way. Now, what is important is not that you ignore it or that you try and avoid it. What is important is that you accept it and then gradually transition away from it. And I'll do a very quick example for you here. Mike, I want you right now not to think of an elephant. All right. Can you do that for me? No, I cannot. Why? Because that instruction in itself, do not think of an elephant. First has to have your brain think of an elephant.

Starting point is 00:18:34 And then there's a subconscious part of your brain that's saying, all right, we're not going to think about this object. And so we're going to keep this object at the forefront of our mind to remember that we don't need to think about it. So when you try and avoid something, what happens is that ironically, it comes back stronger. So when you're feeling sadness, unhappiness, whatever that emotion is, don't ignore it or don't try and push it down. Instead, what you want to do is you want to accept it. You want to learn from it. You want to recognize that it's an important emotion to have and then tell yourself, OK, now that I've felt this emotion, how am I going to move into a more empowering state? What can I focus on that will get me a result that I desire? So those emotions are necessary. Accept them. Stay with them. But then as soon as you can, move on to a more empowering emotion because you don't want to stay in that negative emotion.

Starting point is 00:19:25 What's another habit of resilient people? I'll give you another mental habit. And it's called three daily things, if I remember correctly. If you'd like to be happy around your life, there's some research done by the University of Pennsylvania, Martin Seligman, three good things. That's the name of the exercise. And this is a mental habit that's proven to make you happier over the long run. What it is, is are there things in your life right now that could make you feel joyous, that could make you feel grateful, that could make you feel happy? Yes. Most of us have these things in our life that we can be grateful for. And yet, how often do we take the time to actually be grateful for them?

Starting point is 00:20:09 A lot of the time our focus is on the things that we don't have. A lot of the time our focus is on complaining or moaning about things that we don't currently have. And so as a result of that, we end up living in this state where you're constantly unhappy because you're focusing on the things that you don't have. Martin Seligman's three good things exercise is this. Every single night, grab a piece of paper and write down the three things that you're grateful for. Feel the emotion associated with that. And these could be big things. It could be I'm grateful for my wife or my husband. I'm grateful for the health of my father. I am grateful for the fact that I have a roof over my head. Or they could be very small things. It could be I'm grateful for the fact that when I handed in

Starting point is 00:21:01 my report at work, my colleague said, well done, right? So think about all the things that could potentially be sources of gratefulness in your life. And then every single night, write those down. There's a really cool app that you can use. I think it's called Three Good Things, or I think that's the one, Three Good Things. If you download that, it makes building the habit of being grateful much easier. And the research by Martin Seligman shows that people who do this activity over the long run are actually happier, more satisfied, and in more empowered states just because of taking the time to do this 30-second exercise every single night. And isn't that the easiest thing in the world? And

Starting point is 00:21:43 yet, I think as people listen to you, yeah, what we think about are the things we don't have, where we aren't able to go, what we aren't able to do, what we wish we could do, rather than what we do have. And most of us have some pretty good things in our lives. I talk a lot about building habits and it's very hard to make a behavior change. It's very hard to take on new habits, new routines. So I want to give you probably my single favorite strategy for building new habits and for becoming more resilient. This is it. I'll start off by telling you the study around this. So this study was conducted on a group of women who wanted to lose weight. In this study,

Starting point is 00:22:26 these women who wanted to lose weight were split into three subgroups. The first group was called the control group. These women were told, you said you want to lose weight. You said that you want to exercise. Great. Go out, exercise, and then just report to us how often you exercised. So that was the control group. There were no specific instructions given to them except for just let us know how often you exercise. There's a second group that's a motivation group. Now, this group was given some readings that talked about the benefits of exercise, about the consequences of not exercising. So what happens in your life when you do exercise? What happens if you don't exercise, about the consequences of not exercising. So what happens in your life when you do exercise? What happens if you don't exercise, right? So there's this push and pull

Starting point is 00:23:10 motivation at the same time. This is the motivation group. Several months later, the researchers track these two groups to see how often they've been exercising. What percentage of the control group, the group that just went out and exercised on their own and reported back how often they've been exercising? What percentage of the control group, the group that just went out and exercised on their own and reported back how often they exercised, do you think was still working out in the control group, right, Mike? 20%. Close enough, 39%. Now let's look at the motivation group, right? These were the people that were given readings on the benefits and the consequences of exercise. So they felt really motivated about the importance of exercise. What percentage of this group was still working out several months later? Again, it was 39%. 39% of the control group

Starting point is 00:23:58 was still working out several months later. 39% of the motivation group was still working out several months later. There was absolutely no difference between the two groups. And that is because motivation is temporary. Motivation doesn't last. Fortunately, there was a third group that I told you about earlier. This third group was called the if-then group. Now, what is if-then? Very simple. These participants were told to create an if-then implementation plan. It's one sentence that goes like this. If it is X, then I will do Y. As an example, if it is Sunday and I've just finished eating lunch, then I'll go for a walk for 30 minutes.

Starting point is 00:24:42 Or if I've just finished brushing my teeth first thing in the morning, then I'll do five push-ups. So if it is X, X being a certain situation in your life, then I'll do Y, Y being the habit that you want, right? Very simple. That is the only difference between the control group and the if-then group. What percentage of the if-then group was still working out several months later, Mike? 91%. 91% of the if-then group was still working out several months later, compared to 39% for the control group and 39% for the motivation group. If-then is one of the most studied phenomenons in psychology. There's literally 94 independent papers conducted on 8,000 participants that shows the significant benefit of using implementation plans. So how do you use this? Well, coming back

Starting point is 00:25:33 to resilience, coming back to gratitude, one really cool thing that you can do is if you want to build your gratitude habit is right now create an if-then plan. Go ahead and create an if-then plan for your gratitude habit. If it is 9 p.m. and I've just put the kids to bed, then I'll grab my journal and write down the three things that I'm grateful for. So this is how I like to use if-then implementation plans. If I'm feeling sad, then I'll remind myself to go ahead and change my physiology. So that's what I would suggest. My favorite strategy, if then implementation plans. Try it out. There's so much science behind it, and I'd love for you to test it out as well.

Starting point is 00:26:14 Well, as I said at the beginning, I think a lot, if not most people, wish they had more resilience, that they could bounce back better. And these are some good strategies to use to try to do that. Akash Kariya has been my guest. The name of his book is Seven Things Resilient People Do Differently, and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Akash. Well, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that.

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Starting point is 00:27:32 And the rest of us are somewhere in the middle. So those people who take the big risks, who bungee jump and skydive and go on roller coasters, why do they do it? Are they just different? Or do they really get joy and pleasure out of that risky behavior? Or maybe they just do it to say they did it. Here to discuss what makes thrill-seekers do what they do is Ken Carter. He's a board-certified clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Oxford College of Emory

Starting point is 00:28:04 University. And he's author of the book, Buzz, Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. Hey, Ken. Thanks for having me. So there is this theory, I guess people have, that thrill seekers are basically adrenaline junkies. They do risky things.

Starting point is 00:28:24 They go on scary rides because they like that adrenaline hit. Interestingly, it's not necessarily adrenaline. So there are two different chemicals in our body that control, that influence our stress reaction. One is cortisol, that sort of stress hormone that a lot of people have heard about. It sort of initiates the fight or flight response. And then there's another neurotransmitter called dopamine, and that creates a sense of pleasure. And so these people that we think of as thrill seekers or high sensation seekers actually have lower levels of cortisol, but higher levels of dopamine. So they feel more pleasure, but less stress and, you know, during those high sensation seeking activities. So they're so physiologically, they're a little bit different. Interestingly, though, people that I know that like roller coasters and like,

Starting point is 00:29:19 you know, those kind of thrilling things that they do. It's not like they crave them. Like if they don't get, get it every day or every week that, that they start to Jones for it. It's just, they like it when they get it. Yeah. And so there are different sort of, you know, range of, of, of, of sensation seeking. So there are the low sensation seekers like, like you and me who beach book is all I need to best. That's the most thrill I get. And then they're the average sensation seekers that sound like the people that you know. And then there are these high sensation seekers that really crave that. And if they aren't getting those experiences, it's really tough for them. And so a lot of them that are not doing that right now, um,

Starting point is 00:30:04 are having a tough time because some of them can have a tough time with boredom. And so they start doing things to create chaos because that's where, that's sort of the sweet spot for them is sort of chaotic excitement. So they do things like what? So, you know, there are some expensive ways to do thrill-seeking activities like you know bungee jumping or base diving but there's some cheap ways to do it too like driving really fast on the highway or sort of picking fights with people things that might miss that might get them into trouble but there are some other things they could do for example try unusual foods

Starting point is 00:30:44 or these sort of cultural experiences that are sort of that are not necessarily dangerous but high sensation seekers tend to downplay those risks and so they can sometimes get themselves into trouble when they're looking for those sensations do people who seek thrills for example they'll bungee jump or they'll skydive or they'll do some thrill-seeking behavior. Do they tend to seek out thrills in all areas of life or do they find a few things and they say, I like that? It sort of depends upon a little bit. There are two different aspects of that thrill-seeking personality in terms of the mix of things they like to do.

Starting point is 00:31:29 Some are what are called thrill and adventure-seeking people. And then there's another one that's called experience-seeking. These are people that like sensations of the mind and of the senses. These are the people that travel to unusual places and try unusual foods. And so there may be some people, like I met this woman who wanted to travel for 300 days all around the world couch surfing on other people's sofas. Nothing that I would ever do. But she hates roller coasters, right? And so there are different aspects that people tend to gravitate towards. And some high sensation seekers like both of those things, but they may find it in their jobs. Or if they don't, they're going to do it in their recreation. Is it safe to say that thrill seekers are generally risk takers? not necessarily. So risk taking is really the price of admission to what they want to do. And so if you've looked online, you see these people that climb these big buildings and they

Starting point is 00:32:34 take these incredibly scary photos. They want the sensation of being on top of the building. And the only way you can get there is to climb to the top of the building, right? And so they wouldn't do risky things just because they're risky. They do the risky things because it gets them the experience that they want. And the experience that they want is just that rush, that feeling. That sense of awe. You know, We all enjoy that sense of awe, but things that bring awe are different for different people. For me, it's the beach, right? But for thrill seekers, they're going to want that experience that they can't get in any other way. So they're not necessarily risk-taking for the sake of being risky. They're doing the risk because it gets them the experience that they desire. You know what I wonder, because this is so

Starting point is 00:33:32 subjective, do thrill seekers see themselves as thrill seekers or do they just see themselves as normal and they see people who don't like the thrills they like is kind of dull. Yeah, it's an interesting sort of perception. So they did this study a couple of years ago where they put people on a track and they said, oh, follow the car in front of you. The low sensation seekers drove really far away from the target car and they were really anxious the entire time. The high sensation seekers drove really, really close to the person, but they were

Starting point is 00:34:05 totally chill. And but when they asked people how dangerous they thought the experiment was, they said they rated it about the same. And so what makes us think that something is dangerous is usually our body that's telling us what you're doing is dangerous, stop doing it. Yeah, that's really interesting, because I wonder if that's one of the reasons that even though people know, for example, that texting and driving is dangerous, it doesn't necessarily feel dangerous when you're doing it. So it's like, yes, it's dangerous, but it's okay if I do it because it's not dangerous for me.

Starting point is 00:34:47 Exactly, exactly. And the range of things that high sensation seekers feel is okay is much larger. There was a guy that contacted me a couple of months ago that said that he was thinking about sea kayaking around Iceland and wanted to know what I thought of it. And I said, you know, I'm not the person to ask. I think everything is dangerous. Well, that brings up the question. And I think an important question that I hope you can answer, because there's this sense that people who don't like roller coasters or who don't want to bungee jump or what they, they need to try it. Yeah. It's going to be terrifying, but you just, but if it's not you, then why would you try it? I mean, so do you get, if you do it a little bit, do you like it a little bit and then you like it a little bit more?

Starting point is 00:35:36 Because that's not my experience. Yeah. You know, there's a psychological concept that's called habituation, which means the more you do something that's scary, the less scary it is. And so that might create lower levels of cortisol, that hormone that's related to fear. But I'm not going to like it more, right? And so I just tell people, I don't have the hardware to run that program. You know, so high sensation seekers do they're going to feel awe and thrill and excitement at those things. And they want me to experience the world that the way they do. But I but I can't, you know, I'm not pumping out the same

Starting point is 00:36:18 mix of chemicals as they are. I'm just going to feel terrified and overwhelmed. And I'd rather not feel that way. Yeah. But and if you did it enough, you might to feel terrified and overwhelmed and I'd rather not feel that way. Yeah. But, and if you did it enough, you might feel less terrified and overwhelmed, but you're never going to feel pleasure because that's just not in you. Yeah, exactly. And so I say, find the mix of things that are right for you. But I understand it from their perspective. It's the thing that brings them so much pleasure and thrill. And they want me to experience that too. But I probably won't.

Starting point is 00:36:51 Well, I remember hearing that advice many years ago that, you know, when you go to the amusement park and everybody wants to go on the roller coaster and they say, come on, no, you're going to love it. No, I'm not. And so I don't feel compelled to go, because I've heard some of what you've been saying here that it's just not me, and I don't enjoy it. So why would I do it? Yeah, I know the things that I enjoy. And a lot of the high sensation seekers say to me, you know, I know I'm not made of glass. It's okay to get hurt if you're going to have a wonderful experience. But that's not on my list. Like if, you know, I was talking to one guy who said, when he's going to do something important, and he's doing some bouldering or those kinds of things, he'll try not to do something that's going to break a leg. And I thought, you know,

Starting point is 00:37:43 I never do things that are going to be even remotely close to bringing me to breaking a leg. And I thought, you know, I never do things that are going to be even remotely close to bringing me to breaking a leg. You know, that's just not my list of fun things to do. So is being a thrill seeker just different and they're wired differently and they do different things because that's what makes them happy? Or there more to it than that are there some darker sides of thrill seeking that people don't often consider and you know breaking a leg might be one of them but or is it just people are different you know it's it's people are different but there are some influences that can change that over time. You know, those chemicals in our body don't remain the same throughout our whole life.

Starting point is 00:38:31 And we also have outside influences. And a lot of high sensation seekers tend to not be as high of sensation seeking as they get older. Usually for two different reasons. The chemicals change and also there's more to lose. And so some of them as they get older will not do some of those thrill-seeking things because they want to protect their families or because they just don't feel like it as much because some of the chemicals have changed over time. Is there any sense that thrill-seeking, you know, runs in families or

Starting point is 00:39:05 doesn't run in families or it's just random or what? Yeah, it tends to, it does tend to run in families. And researchers aren't quite sure whether or not it's because those really thrilling experiences bring high sensation seeking out in people, or there may be some genetic component to it as well. I talked to a food blogger a while ago who loves eating very unusual foods, which is typical of a lot of high sensation-seekers. And so they're feeding their kids those unusual foods as well. And that might mean that they're going to be more adventuresome with foods as they get older, or it might be because genetically they're similar and they're more likely to try those unusual things.

Starting point is 00:39:49 Well, that word adventuresome, does that define thrill-seekers? And if you're a thrill-seeker, you're probably more adventuresome in other areas of your life, like foods you eat or places you go or whatever. Yeah, it's interesting because I think a lot of people think of thrill-seeking as something a person does, but I think of it as who a person is. It can affect their work, it can affect the foods they like, the things they do for fun, even the jokes they like to tell, and what kind of traveling they like to do. You can see it in all different parts of a person's life.

Starting point is 00:40:26 So I sense you're, from the things you said, you're not a big thrill seeker, and yet you tackled this project on thrill seeking. Are you more of a thrill seeker, happy not to be? Where are you? I thought that working on this project about thrill seeking would make me more of a thrill seeker, but it's actually made me embrace the things I've already done.

Starting point is 00:40:48 You know, I might try an unusual thing every now and then, sort of influenced by the people I've talked to, but it also makes me realize that a lot of the people who bungee jump or base dive or eat unusual foods, that they're not necessarily doing it because they have a death wish or those kinds of things. They're seeking that sense of awe that we all do, but just in a different way. I wonder, and this is one of the things that thrill seekers will tell people who typically haven't sought out thrills, that, you know, you have to try it. Like do, do people who don't like

Starting point is 00:41:25 thrill seeking seems like most of them have probably tried roller coasters or something that would, that they would get the message. Nope, this isn't for me. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, and that happens relatively early on where you sort of know the range of things that you want to experience. But a lot of those thrill seekers, and you asked me about this earlier, some of it, they're just trying to get mastery over their own emotions. I talked to this one woman, she calls herself Slackline Girl. She does sort of tight roping across these big ravines. And for a while, she was doing it free solo, which means with no safety at all. And she did it because she wanted to create some mastery over her emotions in some way, which is something I would never do.

Starting point is 00:42:17 And it seems incredibly dangerous, but it seemed really important to her to be able to control her emotions in that way, which is really important for a lot of high sensation seeking activities. Yeah, see, I don't get that. I don't understand. I understand wanting to master your emotions, but not at the risk of death. Yeah, no. I do very little at the risk of death myself.

Starting point is 00:42:41 But if your body's not telling you that it's dangerous, then your perception of it is going to be very different. And, and I and I get that intellectually, it's tough for me to get emotionally. I wonder if there's a difference between the kind of thrill seekers like you just described described where someone, you know, walks on a wire across ravines without a net. That's really thrill seeking. That's very dangerous versus people who like scary movies and roller coasters and things like that where they know they're safe. They know it's scary, but deep down inside, they know they're not in danger. Yeah. And so a lot of those people are at that middle average range of sensation seeking.

Starting point is 00:43:32 And since I'm at the very low range of it, I don't like scary movies. I just, you know, I just have to close my eyes and try to get through it. But a lot of people who are in that average range, they are pumping out a really nice mix of cortisol and dopamine. So they're experiencing that pleasure and thrill from it. But they're not necessarily going to do things that are dangerous like Slackline Girl might. Yeah. So if Slackline Girl girl does what she does if she goes on some big roller coaster at you know six flags or something does does she go ho-hum or is that because it's a new experience that might be still might be scary to her even though she's not risking her life. She would probably be able to yawn or do a crossword puzzle during a roller coaster. Yeah, she, you know, a lot of those sort of professional thrill seekers that

Starting point is 00:44:35 are ice climbers and base jumpers, they might do roller coasters as a snack, but it's not going to be a main meal for them, probably. So this really should be of comfort to people, particularly people who aren't especially big thrill seekers, to know that it's not a question of, you know, you're chicken or you're not brave enough. It's not bravery. It's more of a physiological or fundamental difference. There are people who really enjoy it and there are people who don't. One of the goals of psychology is understanding ourselves and understanding other people. And so I've gotten emails from people who say, you know, this really helps me to understand

Starting point is 00:45:21 my brother or my son or my spouse in a way. I was trying to get them to stop doing that because I thought it was foolhardy. But they need it because it's part of their personality. And we need them. You know, a lot of people who are first responders and firefighters and, you know, in the police and the military, these are high sensation seekers that are using their high sensation seeking to help the rest of us. So we need them in our society. But I also think we need people like you and me who are lookouts to tell people maybe we shouldn't do things that are that dangerous very much. Well, it's really interesting because it's not right or wrong or good or bad. It's just either or. It's just some people like it, some people don't. And if you don't like it, why do it?

Starting point is 00:46:11 And if you do like it, why not do it? Yeah, as long as it's safe and as long as you're not putting other people in danger, I think that's absolutely right. What about gender differences? I assume slackline girl is a female, but I would imagine that testosterone plays a role in this and that there are more male thrill seekers than women, right? Testosterone does play a role for both women and for men. And interestingly, for the 50 years of research in this area, we've seen sensation-seeking levels get higher for women, I think because of the role of culture. I think that a lot of people thought women shouldn't do these kinds of things, and so you would see higher levels of experience-seeking in women. But over the last couple of years, that difference between men and women in terms of these thrill seeking activities has actually gotten smaller. Well, there is also that pressure, though, when, you know, when you're with a group of people, and most, if not all of the other ones, you know, want to go on the roller coaster, and you don't,

Starting point is 00:47:21 then, you know, they don't be a baby, come on, come on. But you're not going to like it. But there is that kind of like, you know, be a man, man up and do it. You know, it's really interesting because we know that fear is something as a perception from your environment, you know, the chemicals that you're, you know, pumping out and the way you think about that environment tells you what's frightening or not. And so I tell people, it's the low sensation seekers that are the brave ones. If I'm doing that roller coaster, I'm going to feel more terrified than an average and or high sensation seeker. It's not the high sensation seeker who's being brave if they don't feel that what they're doing is dangerous.

Starting point is 00:48:07 Well, it's good to hear that. And I think it's good for low sensation seekers to hear that it's okay to say no because there's no joy in it. There's just no, you're doing it and you're going to close your eyes and grit your teeth and feel like you're going to throw up the whole time. What would be the point of that? And on the other hand, if you're a thrill seeker and you can engage that and satisfy those thrill-seeking desires in a safe way, well, there's nothing wrong with that either. This has been really interesting. Ken Carter has been my guest.

Starting point is 00:48:37 He's a board-certified clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Oxford College of Emory University, and he is author of the book Buzz, Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. You'll find a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you, Kent. Yeah, thank you so much. It was really fun talking to you. If you've been driving a car for any length of time, sometime in your driving career, you've seen the check engine light come on. So what does it mean? What are you supposed to check? Well, according to automotive expert Phil Edmonston, the first thing you should check is the gas cap.

Starting point is 00:49:20 Because very often, if the gas cap wasn't put on correctly after the last time you filled up your car, it can trigger the check engine light. In fact, on one of our cars, there's even a little sticker on the gas cap warning that if you don't put it on right, it could trigger the check engine light to go on. Most of the time, you fix the gas cap and the light goes out. If the light for the ABS brake system comes on or the airbag light comes on, the gas cap isn't going to fix that. You really need to get that checked out

Starting point is 00:49:50 by a mechanic as soon as possible. And that is something you should know. You know, like most businesses, our growth depends on referrals, people who like this podcast and tell other people so they can like this podcast. I'll bet you have some friends that you know that would like this podcast. After all, you do. I'll bet your friends would.

Starting point is 00:50:10 So please share this podcast with them. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up for hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions,

Starting point is 00:50:36 offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's perspective, we've got you. Then switch gears with But Am I Wrong?, which is for listeners who didn't take our advice and want to know if they are the villains in the situation. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events and present situations that we might even be wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong.

Starting point is 00:50:59 But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about

Starting point is 00:51:43 a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - The Secret to Being More Resilient & Why Thrill Seekers Do What They Do

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