Something You Should Know - The Secrets of Nonverbal Communication & Strategies to Make the Most of Your Contacts

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

Not all that long ago, just about everyone had a landline home telephone. It had one phone number and everyone in the house used that number. Things sure have changed. How have they changed? This episode begins by discussing how many U.S. homes still have landlines, how many don’t and (surprisingly) how many U.S. homes have no telephone of any kind at all. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/study-only-40-percent-us-households-have-landline-135212 Body language and nonverbal communication can reveal a lot about what a person is thinking. Listen as I speak with Scott Rouse. He is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training and has been trained alongside the FBI, Secret Service, U.S. Military Intelligence, and Dept. of Defense. He also has a really interesting YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottRouse3) and he is author of the book Understanding Body Language: How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work (https://amzn.to/2XAXIid). Listen as he explains how to read other people’s body language and how to use your own body language to make the right impression.   You have a network of personal and professional contacts. If you know how to manage that network, the people in it can really help you succeed just as you can help them. One of the real masters of this type of networking is Jordan Harbinger. Jordan was once a Wall Street lawyer and now hosts the very popular podcast called The Jordan Harbinger Show (https://www.jordanharbinger.com/podcasts/). Listen as he explains his very simple yet powerful method to network that will pay you big dividends. People tend to keep receipts because, well you just never know. But actually we do know. Listen as I explain which receipts you can toss out and which you should hold on to, just in case. https://www.lifehack.org/articles/featured/6-reasons-to-keep-receipts%e2%80%a6or-not.html PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Go to https://Backcountry.com/SYSK and enter promo code SYSK to get 15% OFF your first full-priced purchase.  Get 10% off on the purchase of Magnesium Breakthrough from BiOptimizers by visiting https://magbreakthrough.com/something and use code Something 10 Get a SEVENTY-FIVE DOLLAR CREDIT at https://Indeed.com/Something Go to https://RockAuto.com to see all the parts available for your car or truck. Write SOMETHING in their “How did you hear about us?” box so they know we sent you! T-Mobile for Business the leader in 5G, #1 in customer satisfaction, and a partner who includes benefits like 5G in every plan. Visit https://T-Mobile.com/business JUSTWORKS makes it easier for you to start, run and grow a business. Find out how by going to https://justworks.com Discover matches all the cash back you earn on your credit card at the end of your first year automatically and is accepted at 99% of places in the U.S. that take credit cards! Learn more at https://discover.com/yes Visit https://www.remymartin.com/en-us/ to learn more about their exceptional spirits! https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, is there still a landline telephone in your house? I'll tell you who still has one and who doesn't. Then the truth about body language, because there are a lot of myths. There are no absolutes in body language.

Just because someone scratches their nose, it doesn't mean they're lying, and it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. Most of the time, their nose itches. I've trained federal judges who thought if you look up and to the left, you're not telling the truth. That's not true at all. Also, you're probably keeping too many receipts for too long. I'll tell you which ones you can throw out right now and how to manage your network of contacts because one day you

will need them when I've had big issues in my business or in my personal life the number one thing that has gotten me through these is being able to lean on my network it's been like an insurance policy that money could never buy. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but there once was a time that in almost every home, there was a landline telephone. It was the main telephone for everyone in the house. One phone number and everyone in the house used it. Then along came the cell phone and everything started to change. Here's how. So in 2004, over 90% of U.S. households had a landline telephone. Today, as cell phone use continues to grow,

the number of homes with a landline is about 40%, and that number looks to keep dropping. According to a recent survey, well over half of all households in the United States have only cell phones, while 6.5% of households have only a landline telephone with no cell phones. And 3.2% of households have no phone of any kind at all. And that is something you should know. Is body language really a useful tool in determining what people are thinking or telling if someone is lying? Can a person's physical movements or how they hold their body really telegraph what's going on in their head? Maybe, but it isn't as simple as if someone crosses their arms that means they're bored or closed off, or if someone refuses to look you in the eye, it means they're lying. It's more complicated than that, according to Scott Rouse.

Scott is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training. And he has trained alongside the FBI, the Secret Service, and U.S. military intelligence. He has a really interesting YouTube channel, and he is author of a book called Understanding Body Language, How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work. Hi Scott, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hey, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. So I think everybody's heard those things about body language that, you know, if someone is

talking and they look up and to the left, that that means something. Or like I said, if they cross their arms, they're closed off, which from what I've heard and read, isn't necessarily true that you can't make general assumptions based on things like that. And if you can't make assumptions like that, then what is body language good for? All it does is give you a pretty good idea of what that person is thinking and what they might do next. That's basically what you're looking at. And as far as the myths go, those are two you just nailed, two of the big ones. Like crossing your arms means you're not listening or you're not into what that person has to say or you're closed off.

It can mean that sometimes. Sometimes it means you're cold. Sometimes it means that's more comfortable. And the whole looking up and to the left and all that, there's nothing there. People do, a lot of times, they'll look down to the right for emotional things. They'll look at a specific place when they're thinking about sounds or recalling a sound. But we all don't go to the same places each time. You cannot count on that every time. That's a dangerous trap to step into. There is this belief, though, I think

many people have, I've heard it all my life, that much of what people communicate is nonverbal. That when you're listening to someone talk, you're watching them, that a portion of what you take from them is the words they say, a portion is, you know, how they say it, and another portion is, you know, how they hold themselves. So what about that? There's a guy named Professor Morabian, and you may have heard the thing he came up with called the rule that everybody uses called the 73855 rule of communication. And that says that communication is 7% the words we use, 38% the tone of voice we use, and then the rest of the 55%, the rest of it is body language. That's how we communicate. And I heard that back in the 80s.

And so I called him up. I'm the worst at calling people up and saying, hey, tell me about this. So's how we communicate. And I heard that back in the 80s. And so I called him up. I'm the worst at calling people up and saying, hey, tell me about this. So I called him up, said, listen, I've been reading about these studies you did. What's going on here? This doesn't sound right to me. And he said, listen, it's not right. Somebody's taken the information these studies I've done, and they put two of them together. And somehow they've come up with this 738-55 rule that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. And if you get a chance, you tell everybody, you know, or you talk to about this, that, that I don't believe this. And my name is always attributed to the person that came up with that. I did a whole TEDx talk on that.

So what does body language tell us? What, what is it that we can decipher or not decipher? What specifically does it do? Well, in my job as an interrogator, I use it in an attackful sense where I'll ask questions I know the answers to, and I'll see how that person reacts to those questions that I know they know the answers to. And then I'll have questions that I know they don't know the answers to, like questions about places I would make up. As I'm talking to them and we're getting ready to get started, I spend 10 or 15 minutes just talking to them. And you get what's called a baseline. When they're not nervous, they're not being put on the spot. And you see that, you remember all the things, how they acted when you ask them questions that you know they knew the answer to

and they answered correctly, and the ones you knew they didn't know the answer to. And you keep that in mind as a baseline for the way they behaved. And then when you get to the point where you're talking about what they've supposedly done, what they're suspected of doing as you speak with them, then you can see how their body language changes. They may do things to guard themselves. They may bring their arms in closer to their chest, for example. And that's what your brain does when it feels threatened.

It starts guarding your lungs and your heart and your stomach. Or they may be using what are called adapters. And adapters are the things, these little repetitive movements people make that get rid of that built-up stress, tension, or energy from the questioning. As they're thinking, as they're trying as they're thinking as they're as they begin to worry about something as stress builds for example they may start shaking their foot on you know jiggling their foot on the ground or they may start rubbing their arm or their hands or they may just a little bit start biting the side of their mouth

those are the things that when you see those, these repetitive, pacifying behaviors, those let you know that person is under stress. It doesn't mean they're lying. It doesn't mean they're telling the truth. It just means there's an issue there. There are no absolutes in body language. Just because someone scratches their nose, it doesn't mean they're lying and it doesn't mean they're telling the truth.

Most of the time, they're nose itches. I've trained federal judges who thought if you look up and to the left, you they're telling the truth. Most of the time, they're nose itches. I've trained federal judges who thought if you look up and to the left, you're not telling the truth. And we all know from studies now, that's not true at all, not even a little bit. Well, I understand and I've heard from other people that body language is a useful tool by the police and in interrogations and perhaps in court. But most of the time, I'm not with the police or in court or being interrogated.

What about in just kind of everyday life? I think a lot of people, for example, believe that you can tell a lot about someone's truthfulness by their eye contact. Yeah, most people are under the impression that liars, when you ask them a question, that when they lie they break eye contact. Yeah, most people are under the impression that liars, when you ask them a question, that when they lie, they break eye contact. That's the last thing they're going to do because what their brain wants to do is look at you

and make sure you believe them because you're going to make a face like, what? Or you may look like you don't believe them and they want to add what are called qualifiers to that answer to make their answer more believable to you. You're right. Certainly most people think that, you know, if you're lying, you can't look me in the eye. And that's what that, I guess where that comes from. But you're saying that that's, well, it does seem that people, when they're lying, maybe don't look you in the eye when they're talking. Maybe they look you in the eye when they're looking to see how you react to what

they said. Right. They'll look and they want to see how you look. Their brain wants to see how you react, what your reaction is to their answer. So that's because they may want to add qualifiers to it. So their answer will sound more believable. So, and they won't blink a lot either. The blink rate goes really down when that happens because their brain is trying to keep an eye on you. But couldn't it just be that the person cares about how you react to what they said? It's not The blink rate goes really down when that happens because their brain is trying to keep an eye on you. But couldn't it just be that the person cares about how you react to what they said? It's not that they're lying. They just really want to get a sense of if we're on the same page.

Of course. So that's why you want to know what questions to ask next. If you and I were to look at a video of somebody who, if they're lying or telling the truth, and they were asking a question and they gave the answer, the odds of you getting that are 50-50. The odds of me getting it are 60-40. I wouldn't be much better than you. But the key here is knowing what questions to answer to ask next and get those reactions. So you start looking for not just the one reaction you can't tell.

You have to look for several. And then you start putting those reactions over into a little pile that says this person may not be telling the truth. And so how do you develop that series of questions? What comes next after you've asked, does anybody know where this thing is? Well, for example, if I go into a bank and I'm asked to find the person who's embezzling there and they say it could be one of these seven to 10 people, well, I'll get each one of them by themselves and I'll ask them a few questions. And the ones that react, like we talked earlier, if they don't blink a whole lot and they look right at me, their answers are really,

they go overboard explaining that if the answer is no, it should be no. And if they say no, because this, and they add all this stuff to it, then that's just, that just goes in the little pile of, of they may have done this. So I keep asking questions to see if I keep getting those reactions from that person. And then I get rid of the two or three or four or five that answered very quickly. And, and I didn't get the feeling they were being dishonest. And whittle it down to the two, three or four that I think might have been the person that did it. Then very quickly you can get through those because your questions get a little more pointed. What else can you tell about, if anything, about eye contact?

Whether people break it or whether they overdo it is is there any other telltale signs there well it's it's eye contact is is really important because that's you're looking right at the person they're looking at you you know they're they're close and you're looking at them face to face and the person wants to look like they're telling you the truth so they're that's one of the reasons they don't look away, because they know you know, or they know you think, people break eye contact when they're not telling you the truth. So one of the things you want to look for in that instance is as you first start speaking with them, watch their blink rate.

Keep an eye on them. See if they're blinking a whole lot. That denotes nervousness. And if their blink rate doesn't go up really high, you may be able to say okay that person probably is probably telling me the truth but if you're asking two or three people at the same time see if their arms move see if if if see if they go into a protective mode they may not cross their arms all the way but they may turn sideways just

a little bit and when they answer your question, a lot of times you'll hear what are called fading facts. As they give you an answer, they get quieter and quieter and quieter as the answer goes along. Not that much, but you'll notice that it gets quieter as they go along. And they may back up just a little bit. It's very subtle, but those are some of the things you want to pay attention to when you first ask the question. Body language and nonverbal communication is what we're talking about today, and my guest

is Scott Rouse. The name of his book is Understanding Body Language, How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out the Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Scott, can we talk about body language, not so much as it relates to lying,

because, you know, that's certainly important, but there's, isn't there a lot more to this in terms of like what you can tell about whether a person likes you or wants to talk to you, or aren't there a lot of other things body language says besides I'm lying or I'm not lying? Let's talk about the eyebrows out of the gate, because there's something that everyone does. You do it too. I do it. Everybody does. It's called the eyebrow flash.

When you see someone you know from across the room and you haven't seen them in a while or you're at the mall or you're at a restaurant and you see them, you do a quick eyebrow flash. Your eyebrows go up and back down, and they will do it too if they know you. So it's sort of a recognition thing. You'll see that. So if you look at someone and their eyebrows go up, think, oh, no, I should know that person, but I can't remember who they are. Oh no, here they come. So it's sort of get, you can sort of get prepped for that. And you can do that to people you don't know, just to watch them do it if you wanted to. Talk about this idea I've heard about mirroring, that if you want to

connect with somebody, you mirror the gestures and the things they're doing. Matching and mirroring is when you match the way someone sounds, the vernacular they're using, and then you mirror the way they look, what they're doing as well. If you've ever been sitting with someone, you may cross your leg toward them, you may put your arm on the side of the, on the arm of the chair, and you may put your hand on your left knee. And after a few minutes, you'll notice maybe they're doing the same thing. People who really like each other, people who get along great,

they will match or they will mirror each other's body language, what they're, how the other person looks. If you're standing talking to someone and you have both hands on your hips, in a couple of minutes, they may have their hands on their hips as well. And if you meet someone for the first time and as you speak with them they'll feel more comfortable their

brain sees you almost as a reflection of themselves and it makes them more comfortable because that's the way people act when they like each other as they start mirroring each other so knowing that can you then deliberately even artificially mirror somebody to create a connection that might not otherwise get created? Oh, yeah. I do that all the time, especially in an interrogation situation when they start to calm down some and you want to give them the impression that you're there to help them, which you are. You're there to find out what happened. Or if you're in a business situation, you're meeting for the first time that's it's a very powerful tool another powerful tool is when you match the way they sound with the words they're saying most most people will fall under three categories you've got visual audio and then kinesthetic visual people will talk

they'll say things like oh i see what you're saying that looks good to me they'll they'll deal with the way things look and the audio the audio person the auditory person will say that sounds good oh i hear you that they'll use terms that that are that deal with that the kinesthetic persons say that feels good or um that's he's a little bit rough around the edges but i think things will smooth out as he grows older. If you listen long enough, you'll figure out which one of those categories the person falls under, and you start speaking in terms of seeing, hearing, or feeling as well. It could be emotional feeling or the way something feels, a tactile feeling. So once you start matching them with your vernacular, and then you start mirroring them physically,

that's when a bond starts being created when you first meet someone. What about posture? It seems like when you see somebody slouching or when you see someone standing erect with really good posture, that's sending a message. Posture is good. It indicates you're paying attention. If someone's all slouched as you're talking to them,

they may look too relaxed. If you're giving them important information, if the alpha person, say the boss or the person in charge is giving you information, you're slouched down. You just look like you don't care at that point. But if you straighten up and have good posture as they give you this information especially if you were slouching before that's the best thing

so as soon as they start talking you straighten up a little bit that lets them know you're listening and gives them the impression that you're interested in what they have to say as well when you do that if you're if you're trying to give someone the impression you're listening just tilt one of your ears toward them your your right ear, your left ear toward them, whatever your good ear is, as you listen to them and put your eyebrows up and shake your head up and down a little bit. It works wonders. And then when you start talking, do the same thing. There are very subtle things you can use to help enhance the impression you're trying to get across to that person. What else? What other nonverbal things have you observed or witnessed

that seem to have a real impact with people? Well, there's something called that I've coined called the slow and tiny smile. If you see someone and all of a sudden you have a really quick smile on your face, they see that as a smile and it's fine. But what happens is if you start a slow smile when you see them, like it's dawning on you all this time you've spent with them and you've had fun with them, they remind you of whatever, that's a different thing. Because they keep watching to see where that expression is going to go, so you hold their attention a little bit more. Very charismatic people are that way. They don't put on like a real – if you go to the Apple store and they go, hello, can I help you? And that really quick, big smile comes on. That's the salesman smile.

But if you put one on really slowly as when you first see someone, that gives them the feeling that you know them, as well as those eyebrows. We talked about the eyebrow flash being up. From that person's perspective, there's an emotional connection there. What about feet? I've heard it said that if you watch a person's feet, if they're trying to escape a conversation, their feet will be pointing not at the person they're talking to,. They may be standing too straight and they may be looking at you too strong. See where their feet are pointing. If they're pointing toward the door and they're not just all the way over toward the door, they may be headed that way a little bit. That's what's on their mind. Let them go. Let them say, hey man, it looks like you're in a hurry. We'll talk about this later. If you're standing in a group of people, let's say there's four people standing there and one of them is a girl or a woman. And one guy has his feet pointed toward that woman.

That's the one he's focusing on and the person in the conversation he's focusing on the most. It's one of the last things people think about is to look at someone's feet, where they are and where they're pointed and what they're actually doing. A lot of times, like on a date, for example, you're trying to read whether the other person is into you. Like, are they really interested in what it is you have to say and who you are? So what do you look for? What do you look for in determining if people like you? Most of the things we've talked about let you know whether they're into you, quote unquote, or not. You'll see their feet should be pointed toward you as you speak with them. They may have their their feet would be should be 20 pointed toward you as you speak with them they may have their hand a little just a little bit further out than it

than it would normally be toward your space a little bit getting in there they'll be right looking right at you and most of the time their eyebrows will be up most of the time when a guy sees sees a girl that they're sitting in or the and the girl starts talking to him when those when when the guy's eyebrows go up if you're if you if you're a woman that shows that, that he's attracted to you. Another thing you want to look for is, is they're called barriers where the person, as you are sitting on the table, you may put your arm in front of you. It's not bad. It doesn't mean every time that the person is not into you, but it's one of the little barriers you want to get out of the way. Continue to speak with anyone, try to get them to stop that and you do that by you can put your arm on the table and as you

say as you connect with them really big then you take your arm off the table and see if they're mirroring what you're doing because that's what you want is to get that person to start mirroring you are there big gender differences in body language do men do things that women don't and vice versa there's one thing that women will do quite often that men don't do, and only because it's the length of their hair, I'm sure. And they'll pull their hair behind their ear as the guy is talking to them. That would denote, it would indicate attraction because at that point they'll show their neck a little bit and they're showing their ear and the side of their face and their wrist as they do that. So that's two or three

things that that person is interested or attracted to you. What's the one thing you want people to really take away from this discussion about body language? That there are no absolutes in body language. Just because someone scratches their nose, just because someone breaks eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they're lying and it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. It depends on the situation that's going on around that and what you're asking that person about the conversation is. There are no absolutes. That's the most important thing to remember. Great. Well, this is really interesting and I like that you were able to explode some of the myths about body language that I've believed in the past,

and I think a lot of people operate with, that just aren't true. My guest has been Scott Rouse. He is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training. He has a YouTube channel, and he's author of the book, Understanding Body Language, How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work. And there's a link to his YouTube channel and a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Scott. Well, thank you

very much. Really appreciate you having me on here. I'm really looking forward. I listen to your stuff all the time, so I'm really looking forward to hearing me and you talking to me as odd as that sounds. So thank you. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. You have contacts, people you know, whether you're actively and purposely going out and cultivating those contacts,

or more informally, they're just the people in your life. Your contacts, your network of people, can be a tremendous resource to help you get ahead. To which you might be thinking right now, wait a minute, this sounds a lot like networking. And I don't know a lot of people who really love the idea of networking. They feel like they don't do it enough. They feel like they don't do it right.

They're not even sure how to do it in the first place. So I want you to meet someone who really knows how to do it. He trains people to do it, and he does it himself very effectively. He is Jordan Harbinger. Jordan is a Wall Street lawyer turned podcast host. He is host of the very successful podcast called The Jordan Harbinger Show. He also speaks and offers courses, one of which is called Six Minute Networking. Hey, Jordan, welcome to Something You Should Know.

Hey, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. So the image I think people have, I guess the image I have of networking is you go to an event, you hand out business cards, you collect other people's business cards, you meet people who you almost immediately forget about. And frankly, a lot of it seems like a big waste of time. Yeah, I am totally with you. I think when people think networking, they go, oh, I don't want to have to do that because it seems slimy. And it's kind of the reason why sales often seem slimy, because when we think sales, we think of the worst example of the person who's often seems slimy because when we think sales we

think of the worst example of the person who's done it right we don't think oh that nice guy who helped me figure out which washing machine was the best one for my house who worked at that appliance store we think oh when I walked onto that used car lot they just pounced on me and he was like all in my psychological space and he was pressuring my son to buy this and it was just disgusting. We think of that. We don't think of the people that were so skilled that we didn't realize they were selling to us because they were actually giving value. And networking is the same way. When we think of networking, we don't think, oh, this is the guy

who helped me find my web designer and then he helped me find a good show producer what a nice guy they think oh this is the guy who I saw at that cocktail mixer who threw a business card in my face and it like melted in my hand because he'd printed it off on his inkjet printer and then he called me 17 times and he added me to his email newsletter without my permission you know we think of those people and and that's fair because, we're thinking of the worst example of what we can find in a given category. But networking is, so networking for that reason

has become a dirty word, but it's really relationship development, and that's a better but far less catchy term for networking. And that's why it's not always so gross. The people who are very skilled at it, you just think that they're really helpful, friendly, nice people, right? You don't even notice that they're quote unquote networking.

So the trick is to be one of those friendly, nice people, yes? Ideally, yeah, if you can, right? And I think that if you can't, then you shouldn't do it at all. But no, but really the idea is you should build enough skills so that when you do this, and that's what we're going to talk about today, right? But you should build enough skills that when you do this, people don't notice that you are actively network

building, and you shouldn't even really be thinking about it either. Because what you're, you're not looking at what's in it for you. You're actually looking to help other people without the attachment to getting something in return. And so what is it? What is it to be a relationship builder? Because you do what? It's really about creating opportunities for other people, not just for yourself. And what I mean by this is digging the well before you're thirsty.

So this is creating relationships before you're thirsty. So this is creating relationships before you need them. And the reason that that's important, a lot of people will say, well, why do I have to start this now? You know, I'm in school or I'm secure in my job. I'll start networking when I start to look for another job. That is the definition of doing things backwards, right? Now you're digging a well because you're thirsty. You got laid off. Now you want to network. We all know what it feels like to get a phone call from somebody who you haven't heard from in five years. And they're like, hey, Michael, what's going on?

And you're thinking, OK. And as soon as they ask you for something, you immediately close up shop, right? And you get turned off and you never want to talk to him again. But what would it be like if this was a person that you'd talk to every three, six months for the last two, three years, and then they went, hey, I hate to ask, do you know anybody who's hiring in this industry? You would want to help them because you know that your relationship with them is not transactional, right? Because they've built that relationship with you over time. So it's kind of like that Chinese proverb, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago

and the second best time is right now. And when you decide that you want to do this, how do you know who to go build relationships with that may someday turn into that tree? What I would start off doing is an exercise that I call layoff lifelines. And so what this is, is you imagine that your business goes bust orelines. And so what this is, is you imagine

that your business goes bust or that you get laid off from your job today. Who are the 15 or so people that you would contact today or tomorrow to figure out what your next step should be? And you know, you're getting advice. Who are these people? It's going to be, oh, right, my neighbor's dad, the kid I was growing up with, his dad was a successful entrepreneur. Hey, it wasn't such and such professor at the school that I went to. I took his class. I think he also owned a business. That's why he taught entrepreneurship. And what about my guidance counselor from back at university? I should contact him as well. He was well-networked and well-liked. What about my old roommate? His family was well-connected and they had this.

And it's like you really start to think of people that you never thought of before, who maybe your old boss, people who are important, but that you didn't really prioritize. So you make that list of people now and you reach out to them now before you need something. So this is, you don't have an agenda.

You don't need anything specifically. These are important but dormant network ties. And so it's less awkward reaching out now because you might even say, hey, I'm reaching out because I've done a really terrible job keeping in touch. I never thought of myself as a networker. I always hated the word,

but I'm reaching out now because you are an awesome boss and I'd love to keep in touch and find out what you're up to.'t don't worry if you don't have time to get back to me right away I realize you're busy you know you sort of let them answer on their own terms no urgency no get back to me right away I've got a great opportunity for you you know that's what clumsy salespeople do we're just trying to build the relationship and it's very easy to try and hide the ball, which makes people suspicious.

Like, why is this person reaching out now? So what I recommend is you can literally show them your cards, right? Say that you've done a bad job keeping in touch. Say you're not good at networking and you're trying to change that. Say that you realize how important relationships are and friendships are.

And so you're trying to sort of kickstart that process in your life. I think a lot of people, well, I don't think, I know from experience that a lot of people really respect that. You know, they respect when you reach out and say, so I've been pretty bad at this. I'd love to sort of keep in touch from here on out. Sorry, we met three years ago and I never texted you. And then they will be suspicious at first because it is weird to hear from somebody out of the blue. But since you then don't ask for anything, then their suspicion slowly subsides over time. You know, if they hear from you again in three or six months and you again don't ask for anything but an update on their life and you send them a photo of your kid or whatever, your dog, they slowly over

time realize, oh, he really is just keeping in touch with me. She really is just a nice person who's restarting her network. That's great. I'm touch with me. She really is just a nice person who's restarting her network. That's great. I'm down with that. And then in two years, if you do get laid off and you reach out to those people, they're not like, oh, you were buttering me up for the last 26 months. You know, that doesn't make, that's nonsensical, right? They understand at that point that you are now, that's digging the well before you're thirsty. They understand at this point now, okay, you really are down on your luck. This wasn't a trick. I guess one of the things that I've struggled with this too is,

so you're trying to develop relationships with people, but there isn't much there because, okay, so you would do the initial outreach and you say, you know, I'm not really good at networking and I really want to stay in touch and all that. Okay, that's fine for that one. But then the next one is going to be what? It's going to be the same thing. Just checking in to see how you're going.

And to me, that's not really a relationship. That's just touching base. Exactly. No, you're onto something here. So that's why initially you can reach out and touch base with somebody. And you can even do that once every six months or so. But the way that you dig this well thoroughly is not just by texting people once every six months.

You do want to make things deeper. And the way that I do that with every single person in my life that I can is I want to elicit from them what they need, even if they don't necessarily know. And there's a lot of ways that you can do this. But one way that is maybe a little bit on the nose, but easy for people to follow is you simply ask what somebody is up to and what they're working on. Because if you say, what do you need right now? People go, I don't know. I need a vacation. LOL. Right. But if you say, what are you working on right now? And they go, well, you know, I'm working on this new keyboard design at Apple, but at home, I'm building a, outfitting my Airstream for camping, whatever, my camper van. You know, I've gotten that example

recently. And instead of going, oh, cool, here's a picture of my kid. I'll say, oh, you know, I have a friend who also has an Airstream and he lives in that thing in summer, literally. He drives all around the United States and he works from it remotely. Would talking with somebody who's got several months of time involved in their Airstream and works in there, would that be a useful connection for you? And that person in this exact example said, yeah, that would be great because I'm trying to figure out how do I get internet there? Do I just use my phone?

Am I gonna have service here? And how do you use the power systems? Am I gonna be able to use the air conditioner and for how long? Do I need an extra battery? Those are questions that often these people have to look for online. They can't find the right answer.

So I will connect those two people. And that Airstreamer is, which is what they call themselves, is forever really indebted in a way for this very simple thing that I've done. All I've done was listen to them, elicit their needs, connect them with somebody else in my network that may be able to help. And this can be for a hobby like Airstream, or it can be for business.

You know, I can't tell you how many times I've referred my web team to somebody who's looking for a new website redesign. They see my site and they go, you know, I'm looking for a new website. Who's your designer? Or they just say, oh, I'm working on my website and I'm running into all these hurdles. And I'll say, you know, take a look at our site. Our designer and our team is really good. I've referred them so many times that I think that I'm almost certain, in fact, that when we do eventually need a website redesign for Jordan Harbinger dot com, I'm probably not going to have to pay. I think I've sent him at least a dozen clients. Oh, and that isn't me going, hey, who needs a website?

It's me listening to people. What are they working on? What are their headaches? What are their hurdles? What are their stopping blocks right now? Looking in my network, which literally just means thinking about who I know. This sounds very simple. And a lot of people think, oh, I do this already.

But most people don't do it more than a few times a year. So I suggest making systems so that you're doing this. Because a lot of people think, I'm good at networking already. I've introduced people to each other. But then when I really do like a calendar audit for some of these executives who I'm coaching or other entrepreneurs I find that they've done it maybe once in three or four months they think they do it all the time but when you really look at it it's not that common I try to do this on a weekly basis make an introduction and and it's

quite easy to do if you are actively looking for the opportunity to do that for people. What do you think is the magic number for how many people you need to keep in your network and keep in touch with and, you know, basically keep juggling? How many? I would say in my Rolodex, my connectionfox.com is where I keep all my contacts, but in Connection Fox, I've got maybe 1200, which either sounds like a heck of a lot, or it sounds like not very much depending on who you are. I don't need to know 20 web designers. I just need one good one that's reliable, right? I don't need to know 50 photographers. I need one or two in an area that are going to be reliable and do good work you know that's really it so I would say I keep in touch with around nine hundred eight to nine hundred plus people per year but

I'm reaching out to maybe four people per day and I'm talking about I call this drill connect for every morning when I'm on my walk I go open my text messages app in my phone I scroll all the way to the bottom and at the bottom those are those threads where it's like you met at a lunch in 2017 but you never saved the person's number you didn't keep in touch with them after the lunch those are those dead threads I will reach out to four of those people per day and just say hey this is it's been a while I didn't really keep in touch you know you're

sensing a theme here I didn't keep in in touch. You're sensing a theme here. I didn't keep in touch. I would love to change that. We met at FinCon 2017. We had lunch at Cafe Gratitude in San Diego. What are you up to? Here's what I'm doing. Two sentences. Would love to hear what you're up to. No rush on the reply. I realize you're probably busy. About 75% of those people reply. So three out of the four. And of those three out of the four, we have a few lines of text conversation. You know, we're not setting up lunch dates or anything, but I'm just getting a touching base with those folks. A few of them will never amount to anything in the future.

There's just nothing that crosses our paths again. But you'd be very surprised at how often I will get a text out of the blue. Hey, three months ago when we talked, you mentioned that you were doing speaking you know I'm walking into my annual sales meeting right now would you want me to put your name in the hat for our keynote yes please oh hey I'm meeting with the my cousin right now and his boss at Spotify is in charge of podcasting is that a useful introduction for you you know good talking with you last month yeah

that would be amazing these are real examples by the way these are not things I'm making up you know like if you're keeping in talking with you last month. Yeah, that would be amazing. These are real examples, by the way. These are not things I'm making up. You know, like if you're keeping in touch with 800 people a year, 40 of those people or more are going to be pretty good connections to have and to be top of mind, right? Since they've just spoken with me recently, I'm more top of mind and I'm better able to help them because they're top of mind for me too so it's very easy to keep tabs on a large network like this it's very easy to keep people engaged and to be engaged with them and it's very easy to help them in a way that's scalable you know you're not making free websites or graphic design for everybody that you talk to you're merely introducing them to other people that you know that can help them and

that is a great scalable way to build referral currency or social capital. And it doesn't come across as robotic or creepy or scammy because you're not doing it for yourself. Remember, you're doing it for them. So tell me a story about how it paid off in your life that going through all the motions here really, in a concrete way, paid off for you? I had a toothache and I started calling the dentists that were in the area and they were saying, oh, I don't, you know, I only take people with this kind of insurance. Well, I'm booked up for two weeks.

I don't do emergency dental. I don't have new patients, you know, whatever. They would all tell me to go to the ER. And I remember hearing from my parents, hey, if you get a toothache and you go to the ER, they're gonna tie a string around it and then tie another string to the doorknob and just slam the door. You know, those kind of things

your parents told you when you were a kid. So I'm like, I'm not going to the ER to get my tooth fixed. So I posted on Facebook and somebody that I've never met in my entire life who happened to listen to the Jordan Harbinger show said, hey, my aunt's a dentist and she's kind of in your neighborhood. She's walkable from you. Would you want me to introduce you? And you can call her and you can

see if she can take care of your tooth. I said, yeah, please. So she opened up an hour early the next day. I walked over there. I ended up getting in the dentist chair and, you know, 600 bucks later, I had my toothache fixed or 800, whatever it was at the time. And I was very grateful to this guy. So I said, hey, I I owe you one let me know if I can ever help you with anything and he said well you know I'm a barista right now but I love graphic design so if you have any graphic design jobs for me let me know and I didn't have anything for him but a few weeks later a friend of mine said do you know anybody who does websites because my designer crapped out and I've

got three clients waiting and I'mpped out and i've got three clients waiting and i'm stressing out and you've got a good website and i said look we do ours in house but i've got this portfolio of this kid he's a barista right now he's very hungry he wants to do graphic design but that you know that probably translates over to websites you just might need a coder and she said i'll take anything i can get right now so i made that introduction and he got a 80 000 plus dollar a year full-time job no longer making coffee, but doing graphic design for all of her client websites I Never met this person in real life

And I never would have helped him or been able to help him find that job if he hadn't helped me find a dentist on Facebook so you make your surface area for luck that much bigger When you're helping other people without the expectation of anything in return. So I would say never write off anyone because the investment you need to make to keep in touch with people is actually very, very low, right? I'm talking about, I talked to four or five people that I haven't talked to in a long time every single day. And it probably takes me five minutes to send those texts, maybe eight. You know, this is very

low time commitment. It would seem though, and I'm sure this is true for a lot of people, that because you're putting in this work, even though it's, as you say, it's not a lot of work, but you're giving and you're giving, and there's no instant gratification here. Your payoff, your reward, may not come for a long, long time. And so consequently, after a while, it would seem like this would be really easy to forget to do, put it off. I've got something more important to do because this really isn't paying dividends for me, at least not right away. Totally. That's why I always recommend people to schedule this. My calendar has a little 15-minute networking block every single morning. And's why I always recommend people to schedule this. My calendar has a little 15-minute networking block every single morning. And so what I end up doing is I send my texts, then

I make sure I'm going through my emails and looking for stuff I haven't replied to that's in that category, in that particular mailbox, whatever. And I make sure that I'm using these systems. Another thing that I do is I use social media. I let the algorithm give me some opportunistic engagement. So let's say I'm on Facebook or Instagram. They will pop up using their magical algorithm, the one that keeps us hooked, right? They'll pop up that somebody got a new dog or that somebody had a major life event or got married or something like that. Instead of clicking like or writing a comment that says way to go or sorry to hear that, I will send that person a text or an email instead.

So who's more memorable? Somebody that texted them or called them or sent them a nice letter or note when they got married or one of the bajillion likes or comments on their Facebook picture that they might not have even bothered to look at? Well, it clearly is a commitment to doing this, and you do it, and you have been doing it for some time, so it must be rewarding to you and has paid off for you, or you wouldn't keep doing it.

I found that this has actually been life-changing for me and game-changing for my business. You know, I've gotten a lot of opportunities that, frankly, I never would have had if I hadn't been out there kind of making tons of connections, having a lot more fun. I've made a lot more personal friends doing this, not just business folks. And candidly, when I've had big issues in my business or in my personal life, the number one thing that has gotten me through these besides having a great wife and family is being able to lean on my network it's it's been like an insurance policy that money could never buy you know I've hit some pretty hard times in life and in

business and the one thing that's really helped me climb back on top every single time is being able to reach out to a couple of hundred people and say hey this is what's happened. If you know anybody who does this or if you can help me with that, that would be greatly appreciated. And having literally hundreds of people reply back and go, hey, the least I can do

after you introduced me to so and so, or this is, I'd love to help you because you helped me with this thing. These are a lot of interactions I don't even remember. And a lot of people helped me get back on my feet financially and in business and have been great resources for me over the years solely because when I needed them, they were there because I dug the well before I got thirsty. So digging the well can take a backseat. But when you systemize it and you schedule it and you're using these little easy

drills and exercises, some of which we explained here today, this builds up brick by brick over time. Well, your explanation of networking is very different than what I think a lot of people think of when they think of networking, and it's probably a lot more effective and takes even less time. Jordan Harbinger has been my guest, and Jordan is host of the podcast called The Jordan Harbinger Show. And there is a link to the website and the podcast in the show notes for this episode. Thanks for being here, Jordan. Thanks so much for the opportunity. This was a lot of fun. I know I and a lot of people have a tendency to keep receipts. It probably has to do with taxes and wanting to make sure that you have receipts for everything

in case you claim a deduction on your taxes. But even though we get a receipt for almost everything, most receipts really can just be tossed out. Here are some guidelines. For cash receipts, if you use a money management software program, once you've entered that amount into your computer, you can toss the receipt. For clothes, once you've removed the tags and worn the clothes, there is no reason to keep a receipt. For restaurant receipts, you can keep those receipts and really any other charge card receipt long enough to check the amount against the credit card statement when

it comes. But after that, unless it is a tax deduction, you can throw those receipts away. Business expenses, job hunting expenses, medical expenses, charitable donations, those receipts should be kept longer, at least long enough to discuss with your tax preparer to find out if you need them for tax purposes. Also, if you bought anything that came with a warranty, you'll need to hold on to the receipt until the warranty runs out. And that is something you should know. If you like this podcast, odds are you know other people who would too, and I'd appreciate it if you would tell them about it and tell them to check it out and give a listen. I'm Micah Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should

Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

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