Something You Should Know - Toxic Positivity and The Harm It Causes & What’s Your Real Biological Age?

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please, read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual.

Starting point is 00:00:18 That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's BetterHelp.com. Today on Something You Should Know, should you really wait a half an hour after eating before going swimming? And what could happen if you don't? Then the problem with toxic positivity, what is it? So when someone is experiencing distress or they're struggling and someone responds with just be positive, it'll be fine,

Starting point is 00:00:53 everything happens for a reason, this can become toxic positivity. Also, it's just possible that smelling roses can improve your memory, make you happier, and your dreams better. I'll explain how. And you really can turn back the clock and reduce your biological age. So even if someone's lived an unhealthy lifestyle for most of their life, they actually can still benefit. And often we see the biggest benefits by people who are less healthy to begin with. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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Starting point is 00:01:51 With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, and welcome to Something You Should Know. You know, every summer you hear that well-intentioned advice like, you know, don't swim for 30 minutes after eating,

Starting point is 00:02:25 or don't touch someone who has poison ivy because it's contagious. Well, let's take a closer look at some of that summertime advice and see if it's true. Don't swim for 30 minutes after eating. Maybe. If you have a big meal and go swimming, you might get a cramp. But while cramps might be uncomfortable, it's unlikely to be disabling and you would drown. Some people get cramps. Some people don't. Have you heard this one, eating watermelon seeds is bad for you?

Starting point is 00:02:57 That's false. Your body will try to digest them, but won't be able to, so they just pass on through. I'm sure you've heard you can catch poison ivy if you touch the rash on someone who has it. That is false. You have to come in contact with the plant to catch it. Specifically, the oil in the plant is what causes the rash, but the rash cannot be passed from one person to another. My mother used to say scratching a bug bite will make it worse, and my mother was correct. Scratching it can break the skin and cause infection. Even if you don't break the skin, scratching will irritate and make a bite more annoying. Resist the urge to scratch and put something on it to stop the itch. A cold soda can works well in a pinch.

Starting point is 00:03:46 If a jellyfish stings you, you should urinate on the wound. Urinating on a jellyfish sting can actually make it worse, according to Dr. Jennifer Ping, an ER doctor in Hawaii who has studied the most effective treatments for dealing with jellyfish stings. The stings are caused by contact with a jellyfish tentacle, which pierce the skin and inject venom. Dr. Ping says the best thing to do is apply an acidic compound such as vinegar, either by pouring it directly onto the wound or applying a vinegar-soaked cloth.

Starting point is 00:04:19 Once those little things that get in your skin, once those are deactivated, you can scrape them off with a credit card or other flat object. And that is something you should know. I'm sure you've been in that situation where you're having a problem or a crisis in your life and you tell someone about it and they say, I'm sure it'll be okay. Things work out. You'll be fine. Or maybe you've been the one who said those things to someone who was telling you about their troubles and to comfort

Starting point is 00:04:51 them. You said, they're there. It's going to be okay. Things have a way of working out or something like that. Does that really help? We do seem to live in a world where we are encouraged to look at the bright side, not to dwell on the negative. We should all buck up. Things will get better. And that can be a real problem, according to Whitney Goodman. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of the book Toxic Positivity, keeping it real in a world obsessed with being happy. Hey, welcome, Whitney. Thanks for being here.

Starting point is 00:05:25 Hi, thank you for having me. So I sort of explained what the problem is, but go a little deeper and define toxic positivity. Toxic positivity is the unrelenting pressure to be happy and positive or be pursuing positivity no matter what the circumstances. It really is a very simple solution for a complicated problem. And give me an example of that.

Starting point is 00:05:56 So when someone is experiencing distress or they're struggling and someone responds with, just be positive, it'll be fine, everything happens for a reason. This can become toxic positivity. Because why? What's wrong with that? So ultimately, it shuts down the conversation. You're really telling someone like, what you're explaining to me just doesn't sound that bad, or I don't want to hear about it, or I think that it has a very simple solution. Like if you're depressed, just be happy, just smile, just sleep a little bit more. And we know that these topics are highly nuanced and not solvable through just one of these suggestions. But those phrases people say, you know, things happen for a reason, things will work out,

Starting point is 00:06:43 what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I think people say those things to try to focus on hope. And why not? Why not inject a little hope? Why can't you be hopeful and optimistic and still try to work through the problem? I think you absolutely can. And that's where we have to be able to hold space for both optimism and reality, right? And when we use toxic positivity, we're often just giving someone that positive piece instead of asking them like, what's going on? What's hard for you? What are you struggling with and trying to get to know the solution or the problem a little bit more. We're instead just coming in with like, okay, here's a bandaid. Let's not talk about it anymore. What's an example of a topic? Like, when do you hear this the most in your work as a therapist? Where do you hear this the most?

Starting point is 00:07:37 Especially around raising kids, you might hear like, enjoy every minute. Isn't it so special? It's so beautiful. Or, you know, don't complain. There are people who wish they could have children or you're so lucky that we close the door on allowing people to really talk about how difficult some of these topics are because they're being told like, you just have to feel happy about it all the time. And if you don't, you're ungrateful. So a lot of times people will tell other people things will be okay, time will heal things, because we don't know what else to say, because it's uncomfortable. It's a difficult situation.

Starting point is 00:08:20 It may not be our place to engage this person in some deep conversation about their feelings. So what do you say? If you take those positive comments off the table, what's left? You know, you bring up a good point about the quality of the relationship and the depth of the relationship. So if this is somebody that you know well or that you know, I always recommend starting with seeking understanding and then showing compassion and validation.

Starting point is 00:08:47 And that understanding piece is really just asking questions that are appropriate for that relationship and trying to learn about what this person's going through. So what's the hardest part for you? What are you struggling with? Validating by saying that does sound really hard or that sounds like it would be difficult. And then backing everything up with action. And so people are often afraid of like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.

Starting point is 00:09:16 And inaction is typically worse than action. So can you drop food off and send a text? Can you send a text and say, hey, you don't have to respond, but I just want you to know that I'm here for you. And try to just meet that person where they're at and not drag them into this place of happiness or positivity until they're ready to go there. Sometimes though, there are people who seems like something's always wrong that they're, and they're difficult to talk to because everything's always a problem, and there's always some drama they're going through. And it's hard to support people like that because, and maybe you want to tell them, cheer up, God, life can't be that bad.

Starting point is 00:10:00 Yes, and I am somebody who spends their days talking to people about their problems. So I understand that sentiment. And something I have found to be true anecdotally is that the people who complain the most or who feel that way the most are usually the people who have felt very dismissed, unheard throughout their life. And so you can choose from the option of, I'm just going to be there for this person and just say, yeah, that sounds tough. That makes sense. And validate them. Or I'm going to set a boundary with this person and decide that I'm not the best person to help them. Maybe being there for them is really difficult for me. And I'm going to choose either to not have a relationship with this person or to have less

Starting point is 00:10:45 of a relationship with them. Isn't it the case though, that sometimes when people are in that place where things seem horrible, that they're going through a tough time, there are things that maybe they're missing that aren't so horrible that that are maybe worth pointing out yes and no i find that as like um people who are watching someone go through something hard it's very easy for us to think i know what's best for this person i know what they need to see i know what they need to not be focusing on when the tables are turned and someone's trying to tell you, hey, you need to look on the bright side. You're not paying attention to the right stuff. It's not that bad. It feels terrible. And so I think we have to remember that even though we might see something on the horizon,

Starting point is 00:11:40 even though we might know something could be better, that person might not be in a place where that feels possible. And so the absolute best thing we can do for them is say, hey, I know this doesn't feel good for you right now. I know this is hard and I'm going to be here to go through it with you. I'm going to be here when it's open, when it's over. Because what's stressful for people is not necessarily the hard time, but feeling isolated and alone in that bad time. And the idea that you say, I understand that this must be hard for you, that really, those seem like the kind of almost throwaway lines, but you're saying that those really do have an impact. It's so true. And I encourage anybody to practice this, that you might be so shocked when someone complains to you, even about just the weather.

Starting point is 00:12:30 Oh, it's so hot outside. And instead of you telling them to be grateful or not complain, you just say, yeah, it is hot. They just stop talking. Like right there, it's like you've met the need. You both agree that it's hot. There's this sharing of the experience. And you can typically move on. It has the opposite effect, I think, most of the time than you would expect.

Starting point is 00:12:52 Yeah, right. And see, I'm more the person that said, it's not that bad. It's okay. Right. And you're right. Then they're going to dig in their heels to stick to what they said. And now we're disagreeing about how hot it is when just saying, yeah, it's hot. Everything just melts away. Exactly. Exactly. And I've tested this out a lot with my own clients that anytime I try to tell them, look on the bright side, it's not that bad, or let's look at all the good that happened today, it usually feels to them, and it's felt like this to me, like you're not really listening to me. You don't see where I am. And so when you're just able to say, that sounds really tough, like I hear what you're saying and I hear how you're feeling. That sounds difficult

Starting point is 00:13:45 or to just repeat the words that they're using to describe their feelings. It feels like you're listening and you're in it with them and you believe them. And that has what, just a, I'm not in it alone, comforting feeling. It creates community in the sense that yes, we don't feel alone. We feel like someone's with us. We also feel understood. And we're getting this mirroring feeling is happening where it's like, I make sense. People get what I'm saying. I'm not making it up. I'm not crazy. There's not something wrong with me. And that is like some of those powerful feelings that you can give to someone when they're struggling. We're discussing toxic positivity today. And my guest is Whitney Goodman. She's author of a book, Toxic Positivity, Keeping It Real in a World Obsessed with Being Happy. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolph Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The heresies of Redolph Buntwine, wherever podcasts are available. The The conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests,

Starting point is 00:15:26 but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed

Starting point is 00:16:05 critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Whitney, there are plenty of times when people will tell you, and I've had this happen to me, they'll tell you their troubles and I kind of don't get it. Like I don't understand why they would be that upset about this thing. That it doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. And so it's hard to empathize with them. So when you don't see something as a problem, and there are times even for me as a therapist where I'm like, oh, are times even for me as a therapist where

Starting point is 00:16:45 I'm like, oh, this just doesn't seem as bad, but I can understand how it feels for that person. We have the universal experience of knowing how something feels when it's scary, when it's sad, when it's anxiety provoking, whether you think that fact pattern would lead to that feeling for you or not. And so I think you can always try to empathize with the emotions rather maybe than the situation. You also can just ask questions. So maybe you don't see how something is difficult for someone because you don't really understand where they're getting stuck. And through that questioning, they're also able to see like, oh, wow, I didn't see things that way. Or I got stuck on this part.

Starting point is 00:17:28 And now that you're asking me about it, I'm able to talk through it and it feels better. What about the theory that in times when things aren't so tough, just day-to-day normal life, that if you do focus on the positive, if you try to find more happiness in your life, that when those tough times do show up inevitably, that you're a little more cushioned to handle it than if you don't do that. What we see reflected in the research that's very interesting is that people who are overly positive to a degree where they don't like to look at problems are actually very poor problem solvers and have trouble with fixing things when things come up. So what I like to do, because there's some truth to what you're saying, is that if you can look at what in your life is difficult, what in your life is good. If you can look at the gray

Starting point is 00:18:26 in between, you are going to be a much more flexible thinker in those moments where things do get hard. And you're able to say, you know what? There's hard things happening all the time, every day in my life. Sometimes they're not this bad or as bad, but I am able to be flexible and juggle between what is hard, what is okay, and what is good. Well, I sometimes get this sense when I talk to people like that, that part of the problem is that when they get stuck in a problem, they can't see beyond it, that they don't have some sort of underlying understanding that this will pass, because it will pass. I mean, one way or the other, it will pass, and often things will get better. But when you're in it, you don't see that, and it just feels like your world has ended.

Starting point is 00:19:17 Yes. And I think for some people, you know, there are certain illnesses, grief, disabilities, certain things that people might go through in life where their life as they know it does end and it does change. And then there are, of course, the smaller, more like nuisance types of things that people get stuck in. And so I find it helpful to tell people like, yeah, things are probably going to change. They're probably going to get better. And if they don't, you're going to learn how to handle them better. You're not going to stay this same person that you are right now. You're going to get stronger and better at dealing with the problem.

Starting point is 00:19:57 And that can sometimes be more liberating than telling someone this is definitely going to change when they feel like it won't. What about, though, when there's someone in your life and they're always lamenting about the same old thing over and over and how upsetting it is? And, you know, at some point it gets hard to say, oh, that must be very hard for you because, you know, we've talked about this 5,000 times before. When I hear that, I think about the particular situation in couples where one is maybe complaining about their job all the time and the other one is sick of it. And in that situation, I think what would be least effective is to say, all right, we're just not going to dwell about this anymore. We're getting over it.

Starting point is 00:20:41 We're moving on. Because clearly this person has an unmet need. They keep complaining. Something's going on. What I would say is that this dynamic of you complaining to me about work is not working anymore. We have to find another way to deal with this. And that might mean it's time to quit your job. It might mean it's time to go to therapy or it's time to talk to someone else about this. But it's not necessarily the complaining or the dwelling that's the problem. It's how we're going about it. It's extremely ineffective and it's not fixing the problem.

Starting point is 00:21:17 If anything, it's just causing more problems. Are there any cases that if somebody brings up something that they're going through that's difficult, that maybe just to cheer up, you know, buck up, life throws curveballs and you'll get over it? Maybe not quite that abrupt. But, you know, the things that you're saying is toxic. But maybe sometimes it's okay. Is it? I'm sure in some of these one-off little situations, I talk about the example of like, if you're waiting in line and complaining about how hot it

Starting point is 00:21:51 is, you have the choice of either saying like, yeah, it is hot or telling the person, you know, suck it up, cheer up. We're in line at something fun. The problem with this is, is that the question I always ask people is who gets to decide when someone is being dramatic or negative. And most people will want to make that decision for others, but not allow others to make that decision for them. And so I think that's why we always have to choose the softer option that's less likely to be toxic positivity in that moment. And then, you know, it gets tiring to listen to and to keep saying, oh, it must be really hard. Just shut up. Just, you know, stop complaining. No, it does.

Starting point is 00:22:52 And so what I do in these situations personally is I would probably first try to say, yeah, you know, that's hard or like that sucks. I hate waiting, whatever it is. Then you can change the subject completely when someone is complaining to, oh, look at that over there, start talking about something else. And then you can stop responding. It really takes two to stay in that dialogue. And if someone wants to just continue complaining without you responding back, they're going to stop eventually. Yeah. Well, I think people too worry that if I say every time somebody has a problem and I say, oh, that must be really hard. Tell me a little more

Starting point is 00:23:34 about that. You become that sympathetic ear that they always come to when there's a problem and there's always a problem. So maybe you don't want to be that sympathetic ear. Yes. And that is where I think people have to also have really good boundaries. You know, that sounds hard. I can listen to you. I'm there for you, but not at two o'clock in the morning, you know, when my kids are asleep. Like you can be a caring, empathetic individual that's there for people on your terms. What else about this do you think people don't get or it would be important to know or a situation that we haven't talked about? One of the biggest ones I think is something you've kind of alluded to is this idea that

Starting point is 00:24:18 if we allow people to be negative around us, they're going to get stuck in their negativity, or they're just going to continue being that way. And as a therapist, I've found the complete opposite to be true. I've had clients that come in and they just are venting, kind of complaining about things, sometimes for the first three or four sessions. And once I've given them that space to do that without interrupting, challenging them, whatever, they stop. They really are like, okay, this person is here for me. They want to hear what I have to say. And they start talking about the actual things that matter. And I think a lot of our complaints are sometimes the tip of the iceberg on how we're actually feeling. And so we just shoot those off all the time so that we can feel heard. And so given that, what's the advice? What do we do with that? Try to be more

Starting point is 00:25:13 compassionate and listen to one another. And don't be scared that if you are kind and empathetic, that people are going to abuse that. I think people actually become quite grateful and considerate of that in normal, healthy relationships. And also for those of us that tend to complain about a lot, to think about what am I really complaining about? What am I really looking for? Am I looking for connection to feel heard, to feel understood? Because if that's the case, you're not going to get that need filled very well through this type of complaining. And it's always going to feel like you're stuck in that loop. Well, this is such a great topic to bring out into the open and discuss, because as we've mentioned in the beginning, I mean, what could be wrong? What could be bad about

Starting point is 00:26:01 being positive? I mean, it just seems so that's what you do. And yet, as you point out, being positive all the time isn't necessarily a good idea when there's problems that need to be dealt with. Whitney Goodman has been my guest. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist. And the name of her book is Toxic Positivity, Keeping It Real in a World Obsessed with Being Happy. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. This is really interesting, Whitney. Thanks for coming on. Thanks so much for having me. It was fun.

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Starting point is 00:27:50 honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong? Which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. You've probably heard of this idea that you have a biological age that is either ahead of or behind your actual age,

Starting point is 00:28:31 that there are things you can do from physically aging even though the years keep going by. This idea that you can turn back the clock, not only to live longer, but also live longer without some of the problems of living longer, sounds great, but is it a real thing? Apparently, according to Morgan Levine, Morgan is an assistant professor of pathology at the Yale University School of Medicine,

Starting point is 00:28:56 and her research focuses on the science of biological aging. She's also author of the book, True Age, cutting-edge research to help turn back the clock. Hi, Morgan. Welcome. Thanks for having me, Mike. So explain what biological age is. What does that term mean? And how is it different than my age age? Yeah, so a lot of people are probably unfamiliar with the concept of biological age. If you ask someone their age, they're going to give you what we call their chronological age, which is how long they've been alive, so in years or months or however they want to measure it. And usually we put some negative connotation with having a higher chronological age, but it's actually not chronological age or time that's the issue. It's the way in which our body has

Starting point is 00:29:47 changed over time. And this is what we usually talk about in terms of biological age, because the idea is that you could have two people who are 50 years old chronologically, but biologically, they may have very different physiology, biology, and this would give them different risks for developing diseases or even for mortality. But isn't it also, to some extent, to a large extent, your genes, luck of the draw, that you just, your parent, you had good parents? So this is actually a common misconception. So scientists have estimated that very little of the difference in things like lifespan or even a lot of common diseases is due to genetics. And actually, age or biological aging itself is the number one risk factor for most of the diseases that people are concerned about, things like cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease,

Starting point is 00:30:45 diabetes. But you do hear about them. I know some people who have, you know, had those genetic tests and they have that BRCA gene or they have that gene that predisposes them to a very serious illness. There are a few cases where you have these, what we consider like high penetrance genes that are in some cases going to guarantee you to develop certain conditions and others increase your risk by a substantial amount. But for the vast majority of the population, that isn't what's driving their disease risk. So yeah, BRCA is a good example. There are also Alzheimer's disease genes, but these are, at least for the Alzheimer's, very tiny proportion of cases are actually due to genetic factors. So I can imagine someone listening and thinking, okay, so here it comes.

Starting point is 00:31:37 She's going to tell me that the best way to live a long life is to, you know, live like a monk and not have any fun. And, you know, you may live a long time, but, you know, live like a monk and not have any fun. And, you know, you may live a long time, but you won't have any fun. Unfortunately, right now, the best things you can do are lifestyle. You can still have fun. But maybe, well, depending on how you define fun, a little less than what you might have already had. But I think the key is that people can determine what it's worth to them. So, you know, some people will say

Starting point is 00:32:08 they want to live fast, die young. They don't really care. Whereas other people might want to put in a little extra effort to optimizing their health and ensuring with some, you know, probability that they're going to have a longer, healthier life. Am I able to tell what my biological age is? Biological age is a concept that we call latent.

Starting point is 00:32:30 So there isn't actual way to truly measure it. So what scientists are working on is can we generally estimate it? And a lot of different techniques have been developed to try and kind of estimate someone's biological age. A lot of those are things that my labs worked on where you can do this from a blood sample or a saliva sample. There are also kind of just functional measures where you can, you know, see how many diseases you have or do some kind of physical test. And they have different kind of degrees to which we think they're actually valid measures of biological age. So I can't figure it out myself. I would need to take a test.

Starting point is 00:33:11 Most people can probably compare themselves to others their age and know if they're generally doing better or worse. But to get a more accurate estimate of biological age usually requires more in-depth testing. And so you say, you know, if you want to put the effort in, by doing things like what? Is it the kind of the usual live a healthier lifestyle advice of diet and exercise? Or is there more to it than that? Yeah, so a lot of it comes down to these things we hear about all the time. So exercise is a major component in ensuring that you have a low biological age and also not increasing your biological age as quickly as your chronological age.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Diet is another place where people can actively try to intervene to slow down their aging process. And then, you know, other things like sleep quality and quantity, reduced stress, all the usual suspects. Scientists are working on more novel interventions to help people. But right now, the lifestyle and behavioral factors are the best we have. So when people say, you know, diet and exercise, like, so like, how much when is it too late? How much exercise? I ate a carrot last week. Well, that was pretty good. But so like, well, specifically, what does that mean?

Starting point is 00:34:39 The issue is that it probably depends. Every person is probably a little different. And we actually don't have good science yet to tell people what would work the best for them on a personal level. Right now, it's probably, you know, there's probably not a limit to how much exercise is going to be beneficial. So most people are probably not getting enough. We still don't know what types of exercise are going to be the most beneficial. So whether people need to do more cardio or strength training. But it doesn't seem like there's ever a point where it's too late to start. So even if someone's

Starting point is 00:35:17 lived a what we might consider an unhealthy lifestyle for most of their life, they actually can still benefit. And often we see the biggest benefits by people who are less healthy to begin with. Right, because they have a farther, longer way to go. Yeah, and statistics is what we call regression towards the mean. Right. They have more to gain. But you don't know about the exercise because everybody's different or you just don't know? You just that it's hard to run clinical trials for things like diet and exercise and keep people on these regiments for a long time and, you know,

Starting point is 00:36:13 know that they're adhering and know that you actually can randomize them. And this is especially true for something like diet, where, you know, you're not going to take a huge sample of people and force them to eat a certain way for 10 years and force another group to eat a different way for 10 years and then see what happens. So the science is a little bit tricky to figure out, on top of the idea that we're also all diverse and probably actually have different optimal diets and exercise routines. But there must be a ballpark. I mean, you should be able to say, you know, you need to walk 20 minutes three times a year, or you need to be in the gym an hour a day. I mean, there's a big variable there. So, I mean, can you focus it a little? Yeah. So, I mean, for me, I would say any exercise you're getting is probably an increased benefit. So, I mean, for me, I would say any exercise you're getting is probably an increased benefit. So I think, you know, if you can get five to seven days a week of moderate exercise,

Starting point is 00:37:14 that's probably going to be good. If you can do more, that's probably going to be better. If you can only get two days, that's better than no days. So there's not this point where it's like, that's the sweet spot that everyone needs to hit. I would say for me, try to find a routine or types of exercise or amount of time that you can stick to. And the more you can do, the better. When it comes to things like diet, it seems on average that plant-based diet seems to be the most beneficial. And probably the worst thing that people can do is overconsume. So things that lead to obesity.

Starting point is 00:37:55 So how much can you take off your chronological age? As you said, you could have two people who are 50 years old who may have different biological ages, but you can't have two people who are 50 years old who may have different biological ages, but you can't have two people who are 200 years old because people don't live that long. Yeah, so there's actually a debate in the field if there's a limit to human lifespan. And some people say, yes, there is. It's, you know, they estimate it around 120 years. And then there's another group of scientists that say there's no limit, and we just need to figure out a way to kind of hack our biology and enable humans to live longer. There's probably not great evidence one way or the other, but at least biologically, there's probably a limit to how biologically old you can be.

Starting point is 00:38:50 The other way to think about biological age is just the functionality, how well your system's functioning or kind of the fidelity of your system. And there's going to be a tipping point that once it reaches some level of dysregulation, you can't support life of an organism, essentially. Well, don't things just wear out? I mean, doesn't your liver give out? I have a hard time believing that there is no end to human lifespan, that I couldn't possibly understand how that could be. Everything dies eventually.

Starting point is 00:39:18 Yeah, so I'm more in that camp. I personally don't think that we're going to, quote, cure aging and live essentially forever. Your body is constantly changing. And eventually, those changes are going to accumulate. And your biology after 10 years is not the same biology it was before. But the idea is, can you do that slower? Can you slow the rate at which that change is happening? So,

Starting point is 00:39:51 you know, perhaps in the future, someone who's 90 years old chronologically looks more like someone who's 70 or even 60 years old chronologically today. But is there a sense of how much less or how much time can you take off your chronological age if you do all these things? If you're 60 years old and you do everything right, are you now 40 or are you 59 and a half? Yeah, so that's the question people are trying to answer. How much can you actually reverse this? We can look in the general population and just say among people the same chronological age, how much variability do we see in their biological age? Most people are the same estimated biological age as their chronological age. And then the vast majority are within five years.

Starting point is 00:40:40 That being said, you can see individuals who are 10 years or even more discordant between their estimated biological age and their chronological age. The question is, can you take someone who's biologically older, how much can you reduce them? I think that's still to be answered. And are these strategies for doing this, are they slowing it down or can you actually reverse it? Yeah, so that's the idea is that you can reverse this. The same idea, you can take people who have type 2 diabetes, put them in a exercise and diet intervention and appear to, quote, reverse their diabetes. So it's the same kind of concept as that. You know what I wonder is, if you do the kind of things you're talking about, eat better, exercise, all these things, might that become somewhat of a self-fulfilling

Starting point is 00:41:41 prophecy? In other words, the more you do, the more you're inclined to do, like a momentum builds up. Oh, there absolutely could be, right? So when you start improving health behaviors in one aspect of your life, you might be more willing to do it in other aspects because you don't want to kind of, I almost think the psychology is you don't want to waste what you're doing in one kind of realm by messing it up in another. If people think, oh, taking a supplement is improving my health and it's going to make me more health focused, that might be a beneficial thing as well. So as I listen to you talk, it sounds like this is a real exciting area of research, but that we really don't know a whole lot. Aging science is picking up tremendously. There's a lot of new discoveries and a lot of

Starting point is 00:42:33 exciting things on the horizon. But it's still early days. And I think we're only starting to realize the potential. But there's people want answers now, they want quick fixes now, and unfortunately, I'll say the science isn't there yet, but there's a lot of things to suggest that maybe it will be in 10 years, or some people think maybe even sooner. So given that it's a new science, but that we do know some things, what's the prescription then? What do we know for sure that people ought to be doing if in fact longevity is a concern? Again, it's all the boring stuff, right? Make sure you're getting as much exercise or at least moving your body. It doesn't have to mean going to the gym for an hour. If you're just getting up every hour to kind of walk around the office or do something like that, that's beneficial. Eating, trying to limit kind of highly processed foods,

Starting point is 00:43:31 trying to eat as much plants as possible, and trying to not overconsume. There's also evidence that things like fasting, so intermittent fasting or other fasting regimens might be beneficial. So there's a lot of interest in actually studying the impact of that. And then, yeah, all the normal culprits, right? Don't smoke or drink as minimally as possible. At least that's what the science suggests. And is it generally the more the better? You had said that, you know, you don't have to go to the gym an hour every day.

Starting point is 00:44:09 But if you do go to the gym an hour every day, is that better? Yeah. I mean, as long as, I think they also show that long periods of sitting are really detrimental to our health. So yes, going to the gym is going to be beneficial. Building muscle mass and muscle strength and cardiovascular resilience is going to be beneficial. Building muscle mass and muscle strength and cardiovascular resilience is going to be beneficial to you. But I think too, if you can avoid sitting for long periods of time, that's also another perhaps not super difficult fix that people can start implementing in their lives. And yeah, for me, it's just what can people actually stick to? And what can they actually do without feeling like it's a huge burden for them because that'll ensure they actually maintain the lifestyle for longer.

Starting point is 00:44:53 Is it true that the sooner you do these things, the better? Or you can start any time and it will kick in and help? A lot of people think that sooner is better because we're not necessarily concerned about your actual biological age as much as we're concerned with the rate at which you're aging. So what I mean by that is if we were to measure someone's biological age every year, how much did they increase during that one chronological year of time. So you'd want it to be less than one year. So you can imagine if you have a slower rate, that'll compound over time. That being said, I would say it's never too late. Studies from both humans and animal models show

Starting point is 00:45:39 that interventions like diet and exercise can have very beneficial effects, even on the most frail older adults. So anything you can start doing is going to be better than nothing. You know, I've always felt that a lot of people have this kind of fatalistic view towards this stuff that, you know, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow. So why work this hard to exercise and eat right? Why not just enjoy life because you just never know? And I think this comes back to the idea of we're actually really bad. People are really bad at understanding probability and statistics. Yes, you could have something out of the blue, there are cancers that can randomly hit people or accidents that can happen. But the probability of those is so much smaller than all of the things that,

Starting point is 00:46:36 you know, your health behaviors or all these other things are actually influencing. So yes, you could, you know, play the lottery every day and just say, well, it doesn't matter because, you know, I'll just take my chances. But if you actually want to reduce your probability of these diseases or increase your probability of living a longer, healthier life, there are steps you can take. And yeah, it won't guarantee it, but again, it'll make it much more likely. Well, what I find so exciting about this research is not just that there are ways to live longer,

Starting point is 00:47:13 but also to live longer and not suffer with all the problems associated with getting older. And it sounds like the next several years can really improve our understanding of exactly how to lower your biological age. I've been speaking with Morgan Levine. She is an assistant professor of pathology at Yale University School of Medicine.

Starting point is 00:47:35 And the name of her book is True Age, Cutting Edge Research to Help Turn Back the Clock. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. The advice to stop and smell the roses may be really good advice for reasons you may not have known. It turns out that the smell of roses can really help your memory. It seems that if you take a whiff of the scent of a rose while learning a task, then being exposed to that same scent of roses during sleep helps memories set in. Researchers, here's what they did. Researchers exposed people to the smell of roses one evening while they learned the location of various picture cards

Starting point is 00:48:20 laid out in a square. Half of them were then given that same smell of roses to smell as they slept that night, while the other half had an odor-free night. When they were tested the next day, those who had slept with the smell of roses remembered 97% of the locations. Those who did not smell roses while they slept

Starting point is 00:48:43 remembered only 86%. And it gets better. There's also research that shows that people who sleep next to roses and smell them actually have more pleasant dreams and wake up happier. And that is something you should know. If you listen to this podcast and are not yet a subscriber or follower or whatever you want to call it, pretty much every platform that people listen to podcasts on have a button on there where you can subscribe to the podcast, which means it's totally free, but the podcast is then sent to your device when it publishes

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Starting point is 00:49:40 I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures?

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Something You Should Know - Toxic Positivity and The Harm It Causes & What’s Your Real Biological Age?

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