Something You Should Know - Understanding Evil & How the Bicycle Transformed the World

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Starting point is 00:00:44 Or is evil something else? I don't think evil is a helpful concept. I argue that empathy is actually a more useful concept than evil to understand both cruelty and kindness. Then, fireflies are disappearing all over the world. I'll explain why. And the amazing story of the bicycle. It's had a significant impact all over the world. I'll explain why. And the amazing story of the bicycle. It's had a significant impact all over the planet.

Starting point is 00:01:09 The bicycle is the most widely used vehicle on Earth. The rough estimate is that there are 2 billion bicycles. There are 1 billion cars. So in many ways, even though our cities and our landscapes are dominated by infrastructure for cars, it is a bicycle planet that we live on. All this today on Something You Should Know. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage. For more than 65 years, Securian Canada has been

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Starting point is 00:02:02 Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. And in just a moment, we're going to tackle a topic, a big topic, that is in the news and something I'm sure everyone has thought about, and that is the topic of evil. Welcome to Something You Should Know. We're going to start today with something I've always wondered about. Why is it called plastic surgery? Because most of the time, I don't think there's a whole lot of plastic involved.

Starting point is 00:02:40 So why is it called plastic surgery? According to medical historian Lindsay Fitzharris, who wrote a book called The Facemaker, the term plastic surgery was first used in 1798 by a French surgeon. And at that time, the word plastic didn't mean what it does today, a synthetic substance that you make credit cards out of. Plastic simply meant something you could mold, like skin or soft tissue. Today, under the umbrella of plastic surgery is reconstructive surgery, which is the attempt to put something back the way it was,

Starting point is 00:03:25 and cosmetic surgery, which is more about trying to improve over the way it was. And that is something you should know. The word evil comes up a lot. People talk about all the evil in the world, and there does seem to be a lot of it. And you have to wonder at times, what is it that makes people do such horrible things? When I think of evil, I think of Adolf Hitler, war crimes, school shootings, murder. But what is the force behind those things? What causes people to act with such hate or indifference?

Starting point is 00:04:01 Is evil an actual force, a thing? Do people simply have evil in their heart? Or might there be another way to explain evil? Simon Baron Cohen studies evil as a scientist. He's a professor of developmental psychopathology and director of the Autism Research Center at the University of Cambridge. He's the author of more than 600 scientific articles and four books, including The Science of Evil, On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty. Hey Simon, welcome to Something You

Starting point is 00:04:33 Should Know. Hi, thanks for inviting me. Sure. So how do you look at evil? What is it? Well, we use the word evil in the English language all the time. But I'm a scientist, and I'm trying to understand the question of why do people sometimes act with cruelty and the flip side, act with kindness. And I think the concept of evil doesn't really help us to answer that question. I mean, it's just, you know, it's a word that, you know, in a way the word evil means this person did something bad. But it doesn't help us understand why that person acted in a bad way. I argue that empathy is actually a more useful concept than evil to understand both cruelty and kindness.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Empathy is something that scientists have been able to study in terms of the brain, in terms of the mind, and in terms of why people lose their empathy under certain conditions. And the main argument is that, you know, when people act with cruelty, it's because their empathy is in some way impaired, affected. And when they act with kindness, it's because they are using their empathy. Okay. And so what is empathy? How do you define that? So empathy is a kind of very broad concept, but there's at least two parts to it. So psychologists talk about cognitive empathy, which is the ability to put yourself into somebody else's shoes to imagine what they might be thinking or feeling. And then there's another component called affective empathy, which is the emotional

Starting point is 00:06:32 response we have to somebody else's thoughts and feelings. So the first kind of empathy, the cognitive part, is sort of recognizing what someone is thinking or feeling, maybe from their facial expression, from what they say, from their body language, or just the context. But the second part is responding. It's kind of how you feel in your guts if you see somebody else in pain. So basically you're saying that when people do something that we would consider cruel or evil, it's because they lack empathy.

Starting point is 00:07:09 Cruelty is best explained by a reduction in affective empathy. And the best case to think about are psychopaths or people who have antisocial personality disorder, because they can do the first part of empathy pretty well, and sometimes even to a very high level. So they know what their victims are thinking and feeling. That's how they're able to manipulate them, deceive them, find their vulnerability. But they don't seem to have the normal levels of affective empathy, in the sense that they don't care about their victims. So that's how they're able to hurt other people. And these are just two parts of a process of empathy. I call it the empathy circuit in the brain

Starting point is 00:07:55 which can be affected by both genetic factors, other aspects of biology like hormones, but also most most importantly, social factors. If I lack empathy or something's not going right in my head with empathy, so that I'm not able to put myself in your shoes, doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to be cruel to you, though. No, you're absolutely right. I think what empathy does is it puts the brakes on our behavior. So we might be angry, we might feel that we've been badly treated. And we might have

Starting point is 00:08:34 a very strong desire for revenge, for example. But empathy is, you know, it stops us from hurting others by making us think, well, how would the other person feel? And so it intervenes between our feelings, often driven by anger, and acting on that anger. It would seem to me that there are other things at work here too. Like I may not be cruel to you because I have, it's not my character to be cruel, or I can see, I can reasonably and logically see there's no benefit to being cruel and being evil. So I choose not to, even though I might feel like, you know, getting revenge, but I'm smart enough to know there's no point to it. Yeah, so you're absolutely right that other processes are also at play, including, you know, using reason or logic, you know, what you might,

Starting point is 00:09:38 you might take a very kind of calculating approach to how you treat other people and simply think, what are the benefits? What are the potential losses or risks? And just act in your own best interest, even without using empathy, you might just use logic. But in everyday interactions, often empathy is also playing a very major role. And, you know, it happens at lightning speed. You know, we see somebody else, we see a person falling over in the street. It doesn't necessarily benefit us to rush over and help them. If we're doing this cost benefit analysis in a very logical way. But nevertheless, we rush over, because we recognize that the person is maybe distressed or in pain, and we want to do something to alleviate

Starting point is 00:10:31 their distress. So it's a very rapid response in the brain. And, you know, maybe after the event, you might rationalize it, why did I do that? But at the time in the heat of the moment, it's your empathy that's driving you to respond. I have always thought, and I think most people think that evil is something some sort of strange black magic feeling of wanting to do harm and getting some thrill out of it. It's not that you don't have empathy for the other person. You actually enjoy being evil. evil? I mean, the first part of your comment, that it's a kind of black magic experience, is it just shows that the word evil has come from, if you like, more of a religious or a spiritual context rather than a scientific one. You know, we think of the devil, you know, as an evil character, or, you know, that evil is some kind of force,

Starting point is 00:11:45 which is, in some sense, you know, supernatural. But if we're trying to take a scientific approach to understanding cruelty, you know, reference to these, what you call black magic, isn't really going to help us, I don't think. Your second point is about whether some people might actually derive pleasure from hurting others. You know, and that is something that's real. You know, so we were talking earlier about psychopaths or people with antisocial personality disorder. And the version of that that you see in teenagers is something called conduct disorder. So, you know, delinquents, you know, teenagers who, for example, might get involved in antisocial behavior, you know, hurting others or hurting other people's property. But, you know, some of the research using MRI scanning

Starting point is 00:12:47 has shown that the reward pathways in the brain, which is activated when we enjoy something, those pathways are also activated in these kids, in delinquent kids, when they see somebody else in pain. And, you know, that is, I mean, it's a shocking thing that a person could feel pleasure at somebody else's pain. But we do have to recognize that's a real phenomenon and try to understand where it's come from. But I think any kind of analysis of that behavior would say that empathy is absent in that situation. You know,

Starting point is 00:13:26 you're seeing somebody else in pain and you're getting pleasure from it suggests that you're not really empathizing. But why would one person get pleasure out of evil and cruelty and another person not? What is the difference? If we take the example of people who have been abused or neglected in their childhood, and where as young kids, they felt very powerless, they've been the victims. As they get older, and they get into the teens, and even into adulthood, there's a kind of phenomenon that is widely discussed about how the victim turns into the victimizer. The kid who was abused turns into the abuser as an adult. And you get these cycles of abuse across generations sometimes.

Starting point is 00:14:15 Getting some pleasure out of seeing someone else suffer may simply be because as a child you had no control in the situation. But as a grown-up teenager or adult, you finally get some control. You're now the one who's in control, even if it is at somebody else's expense. We're talking about evil and what it is and what it isn't. Simon Baron-Cohen is my guest. He's author of the book, The Science of Evil. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you and have a nice life.

Starting point is 00:15:02 Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. People who listen to something you should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI,

Starting point is 00:15:49 discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Simon, you don't see evil as a thing.

Starting point is 00:16:23 When people do evil things, it's because of a lack of something. It isn't something, it's a lack of something else. It's a lack of empathy. might lead the reader to expect that they're going to discover what is evil. But actually I'm reframing it to saying, let's look at the related concept of empathy. Because empathy is much more straightforward to analyze, to research from a scientific perspective, and maybe also to intervene. If we want to intervene so that that abused child doesn't grow up to abuse others, you know, there's a very clear point of,

Starting point is 00:17:13 you know, where we can intervene, and that is in the development of empathy, cultivating that child's empathy. What about cultivating empathy later in life? Is that possible? You know, when we have somebody in prison who's done terrible things, and there are programs like restorative justice, where we bring the criminal into contact with the victim or their family, in part that's maybe because we're trying to offer the opportunity to cultivate empathy even later in life. Because prison is not just about punishment, it's also often about rehabilitation, about allowing the individual to change. Well, what's normal? Is there a normal? Is normal being empathetic and the lack of empathy is abnormal

Starting point is 00:18:14 or people are just different or what? That's a great question. So we developed a questionnaire called the Empathy Quotient, the EQ. And what we found was, so it asks you all kinds of questions about how easily you can empathize with another person, how easily you can tune into somebody else's thoughts and feelings and respond appropriately. And what we found was that the scores are actually distributed in the population along a bell curve. A lot of your listeners will be familiar with the bell curve. It's kind of the normal distribution in statistics.

Starting point is 00:18:55 So most of us just have average levels of empathy. But there are people who are above average, less of them. And then there are people who are above average, less of them, and then there are people who are below average. So when we talk about what is normal, basically there are different degrees of empathy. Most of us are just in the average range. So you and I might not have great empathy, but we have enough to be able to kind of live in a community where we're not hurting other people on a day-to-day basis. We're considerate towards our neighbors, towards our friends and colleagues and family, you know, and it's empathy that's constantly reminding us, you know, to think about the

Starting point is 00:19:37 impact of our actions, our words on others. Somehow though, there are things that, you know, like truly horrific events, mass shootings, Adolf Hitler, it just seemed like there's more to it than just a lack of empathy, that there is something else. It isn't a lack of something. It's a force that is evil. We have to go back one step because right at the beginning of this conversation, my point was that the word evil is not helpful. You know, Hitler is often brought up as an example of someone who did extreme things. And that's no one's arguing that that's the case. He killed six million Jewish people. He also killed people with learning disabilities.

Starting point is 00:20:32 He killed gay people. To understand his attitudes and his behavior, this is the argument. We would need to look at him as an individual. What led to the loss of empathy? Because if he had empathy, he wouldn't have legalized all of those things. And we know that with Hitler, as soon as he came to power, he passed a whole bunch of laws that legalized initially euthanasia, but then the concentration camps. Well, you've said a couple of times that you don't think the word evil is useful, but I think it is useful because it helps put a label on certain types of behavior and it helps to differentiate between good. You know, there's good and there's evil.

Starting point is 00:21:20 So we get a better understanding of right and wrong, good and evil, which is why the word I think exists and people use it. I think they like the word because it's a short word, just four letters, which kind of allows people to express how upset they are at what somebody has done. So to say, oh, he must be evil. That's why he did it. But if you analyze the sentence, that's why he did it. It's there isn't really an explanation there. It's kind of referring to something. Again, you called it black magic. Some people would call it mysterious. You know, something indefinable. I think it's fine to try and have a word which says that the behavior was extreme uh in terms of how bad it was but to understand it we need we need some explanatory

Starting point is 00:22:15 factors and you know um the science is now getting to this point where we can point to social factors like early deprivation and abuse, but we can also point to biological factors, which include genetics and prenatal hormones, all kind of combining to influence how much empathy a person has. I don't see anything similar going on in terms of trying to really understand this concept of evil in fact I find the concept of evil unhelpful well I get I get what you're saying about you know that from a scientific point of view that that it isn't helpful to talk about evil because it you know it is this mystical thing. But from a living your life point of view, it does seem helpful because I think people need to make sense of the world somehow,

Starting point is 00:23:14 and that's what religion does, and that there is evil, and that that is something to avoid and something to keep away, and that it may be not scientific but but it does serve a purpose yeah but you know i think if you if you look at the word and try and analyze you know is it helping you is it a helpful word for us to have in some ways i I find that the word closes down any questioning, you know, to say, well, the person did that because they're evil. It's as if that's the end of the story. Whereas, you know, the approach that I'm suggesting, where we look at, you know, what are the determining factors that influence how much empathy a person has. Empathy is a kind of

Starting point is 00:24:07 normative process, as we've said, and some people have more of it than others. But, you know, what is it that determines how much empathy you have? And what are the factors that can interrupt your empathy? You know, and one, for example, that we haven't talked about is stress and when you're feeling under threat. So if we take a conflict like the Israel-Palestine conflict, where we've had two communities living for almost 100 years, both feeling threatened by the other. When you feel under threat, if you feel your country is going to be bombed, for example, it's very difficult to have empathy for the other community. Instead, you're living in a state of fear the whole time. And the hormones, the stress hormones related to fear, such as cortisol, can be at a very high level, which are kind of blocking the empathy process. And it's only when you're in the position of, if you like, security, that you have the luxury to

Starting point is 00:25:13 think, I wonder what the other person is thinking or feeling, and I wonder if I can help. And the same would be true at an individual level, not at a community level. But at an individual level, if you've been, I don't know, repeatedly assaulted, it's very difficult to have empathy for the people who you fear may assault you again. Well, I think people will always use the word evil because it describes something that people readily identify as the opposite of good. It's evil. It's bad. But as I listen to you talk and the more I think about this, I think you're right that you can't really put your finger on evil, that it isn't a thing. There is no magical force. There has to be something else that explains it. And this has been an interesting discussion exploring that explanation. I've been speaking with Simon Baron-Cohen. He is

Starting point is 00:26:13 a professor of developmental psychopathology and director of the Autism Research Center at the University of Cambridge. He's the author of several books, including The Science of Evil, On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Simon. Appreciate the conversation. Great. I enjoyed it. Thanks again, Mike. Bye-bye. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most.

Starting point is 00:26:58 Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker.

Starting point is 00:27:36 Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Starting point is 00:28:00 Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. I'm willing to bet that you know how to ride a bicycle. For many of us, for me certainly, as a kid, my bike was my ticket to freedom. I could go places on my own, meet up with people, do stuff.

Starting point is 00:28:44 And think about it, all over the world, every day, people ride bikes for fun, to get to work, to run errands. I mean, the bicycle has become a very important player worldwide. So how did that happen? I mean, there are twice as many bikes as there are cars in the world. What is it that makes the bicycle so special? Well, someone who knows a lot about this is Jody Rosen. He is a contributing writer for the New York Times Magazine and author of the book, Two Wheels Good, the History and Mystery of the Bicycle. Hi, Jody. Welcome.

Starting point is 00:29:20 Hi, Mike. Great to be here. So when did the bicycle first show up? What was the first bike? You know, there were many, many attempts over the centuries, even the millennia, to create something like a bicycle. But it was only, strangely, in the second decade of the 19th century, in 1817, that a German minor nobleman named Karl von Dreis invented the first bicycle, or really proto-bicycle, because it was a vehicle that had two wheels lined up in a straight line like a bicycle does. It definitely is recognized as a bicycle, but it didn't have pedals or a chain drive. He called it, Karl von Dreis called it a Laufmaschine. Maschine, that's the German word which translates roughly to running machine because it was a vehicle you propelled, you kind of straddled it and moved your feet along the ground, pushed it

Starting point is 00:30:10 along like the balance bikes, the push bikes that you see children riding these days to learn how to balance their bodies on the bike. So at what point did we get something that is more like the modern bicycle? It was only in the mid-1880s that we got what was then called the safety bike, safety bike or safety bicycle, which was so-called because it wasn't as dangerous as these earlier bikes. And that's the modern bicycle, which has, you know, a chain drive that loops back to the rear wheel, has two wheels of equal size, and it gives you a nice smooth ride. So when I think of the early days of the bicycle, I think of those bicycles that had that really huge wheel in the front and the little thing in the back. And you had to balance on it.

Starting point is 00:30:55 And if you fell, you'd probably kill yourself. So what was that all about? What was the deal with the big, huge front wheel? Yeah, because it was a direct drive bike, there was no gearing system on the bike. So the reason you have a big front wheel is so that you can travel a further distance with each rotation. That is like, if you had a tiny wheel at the front, you'd have to push the pedal around, the pedals around many, many, many times to even, you know, go 10 yards.

Starting point is 00:31:22 When you're riding the high wheel or the big front wheel, one rotation of the wheel would shoot you along the ground a slightly longer distance. When we got the safety bicycle, the modern bicycle, which had this chain drive that looped back to the rear wheel, that created a gearing effect so that you could, you know, go further distances. You could have wheels of equal size instead of that big front wheel. One thing I'll add about the big front wheel is it was extremely dangerous bike to ride. It was very hard to mount.

Starting point is 00:31:53 You had to sit very high on the bike. And people were prone to taking headers, as they called it back then, to flying over the front of the handlebars and knocking their heads on the ground. So it was an important innovation to create a different model of bike that was safer to ride. What is it, do you think, about the bicycle that, I mean, I don't know if there's any statistics on this, but I don't know anybody that can't ride a bicycle.

Starting point is 00:32:21 It's pretty universal. There's that expression, it's like learning to ride a bike, right? Once you learn to ride a bike, your brain works in a way that you instantly assimilate the skill. It's actually pretty easy to learn to balance your body on the bike and turn the pedals and move along. It's a very well-engineered machine and it's a very democratizing machine. A bicycle can bear 10 times its own weight. So if you're a very big person, you can ride a bike. You can even ride a bike if you're a bear. Remember in the old circuses, they would have animals that rode bicycles as a kind of a stunt. So there were bears that rode bicycles. But it's also a machine that a child can operate, that crucially old people can operate. And the bicycle is the most widely used vehicle on earth. The rough

Starting point is 00:33:16 estimate is that there are 2 billion bicycles on the planet. There are 1 billion cars. So in many ways, even though our cities know, our cities and our towns and our landscapes are dominated by infrastructure for cars, it is a bicycle planet that we live on because that's the way in so many places, that's the way the primary means of travel. When the bicycle became something that people were aware of and people started to ride, was it a big deal at the time, or was it like, yeah, a couple of people riding it here, a couple of people, and it just kind of grew slowly? Or was it like a big deal? It was a huge deal. The bicycle was hailed as the greatest

Starting point is 00:33:58 invention of the 19th century. And if we think about the various other technologies that were developed in the 19th century, that's saying something. After all, this is the century that gave us the steam locomotive and the phonograph and the movie camera. But at the time, the bicycle was really viewed as a revolutionary device. And it was also viewed by many people as a threat because it was changing the social order very rapidly. Suddenly, all kinds of people who didn't have a means of travel, people who were both rich and poor, could get on a bike and zip around. There was a great hue and cry from many quarters about how the bicycle was ruining the morality. It was leading women astray, how people weren't

Starting point is 00:34:44 attending church anymore because they're riding bicycles. Whole industries were thought were going to go out of business. Like no one was going to patronize bars anymore because after all, they were too busy off riding the bicycle. And why did they want to go have a beer when they could just drink a soda pop and go riding through the countryside? So it was a huge deal. And it was thought at the time that the bicycle would kind of be with us and be the primary means of getting around for decades, centuries. But of course, very quickly after the invention of the bike, we have the rise of the automotive era, Ford's Model T, and the kind of fate of the bicycle was transformed.

Starting point is 00:35:30 But before the bicycle took a backseat to the automobile, what did it transform? How did it change the world? Well, one of the things it altered was, I can't overstate what a big deal it was that suddenly women had a means of getting around on their own, unchaperoned. It changed the way women dressed. Before this period, women typically wore not only dresses, but in the proper Victorian style, we're wearing these huge whalebone corsets. And those things were very hard to move in. And of course, it was impossible to mount a bicycle if you're wearing a giant corset. Well, so women took to wearing different types of clothing, including

Starting point is 00:36:05 these kind of big pantaloons, which allowed them to ride the bike. And this modern dress, what was called dress reform, was a cornerstone of the feminist movement at that time. So the bicycle was definitely viewed as a transformative device and, as I say, a threat to the social order. Susan B. Anthony, the great feminist activist, said that the bicycle had done more for the emancipation of women than anything else in history. So I imagine that back in the day, before cars, bicycles were a great means of transportation for adults. But when the car came along, it would seem that, well, you know, why ride a bike when you can drive a car. This was a deliberate strategy by the bicycle companies. They were like, let's market the bike as a plaything for children. And moreover, let's market it as kind of like a starter car. So if you see the design of bikes, for instance, from the 1940s

Starting point is 00:37:19 and 50s, bicycles in the US were built with these great big gas tank type things in the frames. The idea being that a child riding the bike was kind of in training to eventually be a motorist. And when they got older, they would discard the bike and take to the road in a vehicle that had an internal combustion engine and ran on gasoline. This process didn't take place in the same way in Europe. And cities there were older. They had better design to accommodate bicycles, and these cities in England and Europe had city cultures that were kind of perfect for bicycles because you could live in a neighborhood where all the shops were right there. It was actually a quick and convenient way to get around and do your errands. Even though bicycles and automobiles are clearly very different, but they also seem related.

Starting point is 00:38:10 You know, they share the road, they have wheels. How else are they related? Did anything from the bicycle end up in the car? Did bicycles help to develop the car? That kind of thing. Some of the parts that were first developed for bicycles, ball bearings, brake pads, became cornerstones of car manufacturing. And things like dealer networks, assembly lines, planned obsolescence, those were first developed by bicycle manufacturing moguls in the late 19th

Starting point is 00:38:40 century, many of whom transitioned to the manufacturing of cars after the success of Ford's Model T. So the relationship between cars and automobiles is very, very close indeed. In fact, the roads themselves in the United States, the fact that so much of the country got paved over in such a short period of time is the result of the work of bicycle activists, something called the Good Roads Movement, a huge and very consequential political crusade in the late 19th century, which was led initially by bicycle activists. So the relationship between bikes, motorcycles, cars is actually more like the relationship of close cousins than it is like, you know,

Starting point is 00:39:25 archenemies, if you know your history. I'm going to guess that while COVID was bad for a lot of businesses, it probably was pretty good for the bicycle business, yes? You know, the pandemic, when we were all in lockdown and suddenly the streets were cleared of cars was a big moment for bicycle revival. There were record numbers of bike sales in the United States, record numbers of new cyclists taking to the streets to use the bicycle to commute to and from work because they were worried about social distancing, didn't want to be on public transportation. And the bicycle suddenly had a different kind of appeal. So what I'd say is the biggest changes in the world that bicycles are making are quite

Starting point is 00:40:10 possibly happening now and are still to come. We may be entering a kind of a new golden age of the bicycle. And that's certainly what a lot of the urban planners and bicycle advocates think and are hoping for. Well, throughout its rather long history, the bicycle never has really fallen out of favor. I mean, people have been riding either out of necessity or pleasure, been riding bicycles. And I've always thought it's because of a couple of things. One, that they're relatively simple, that, you know, a bike is a bike. The parts are,

Starting point is 00:40:43 there aren't that many parts and you can see them. They're all right there. It's not hard to figure them out if you really wanted to. And bikes are relatively inexpensive compared to a car and they can get you from here to there pretty quick. But also I think the other reason they've stuck around is it's really fun to ride a bike. The feeling you get riding a bike is a special feeling. To feel the wind rushing over your body, to kind of have such control over the machine, yourself, to be able to like move slow and fast. The pace that you move on a bike is kind of the ideal pace to sort of take in the world,

Starting point is 00:41:21 to view the panorama around you, to interact with the environment, the elements. So I think that's part of the eternal appeal of the bicycle too. They're really fun to ride. You know that you're speaking earlier about that moment when you're a child and you feel that sense of liberation when suddenly you're pedaling the bike under your own power and maybe your dad or mom who's behind you holding, steadying the bike isn't there anymore. An adult can reconnect with that feeling every time he or she rides the bike. You know, you kind of want to say, we. So that's also part of the appeal. It just feels real good to ride a bike. So here is something that I've noticed that is reflective, I assume, of the popularity of riding bikes. When I was a kid, people,

Starting point is 00:42:07 or we didn't so much as go ride bikes to ride bikes. It was to go to the store or to go to somebody's house or something. But today, and around where I live, you know, on the weekends, there's just packs of people with, you know, their helmets and spandex suits and riding bikes in groups just to ride bikes. It's the reason for riding. It isn't just a means of getting from here to there. It was really in the 1970s when there was an enormous bicycle boom. In 1972, 1973, and 1974, for a variety of reasons, including the OPEC oil crisis, Americans took to the bike in huge numbers. I was saying in 1972, 1973, and 1974, the bicycle actually outsold cars in this country. That hasn't happened since.

Starting point is 00:43:01 But part of the big impetus for that bicycle boom was new ideas about physical fitness. And I think those have really stuck around. People ride bikes because it's a great way to keep your body in shape. And it's a way to keep your body in shape even when you're maybe too old to do things like play a pickup basketball game. Maybe jogging isn't your thing. So there's a lot of fitness cyclists, of course, who are out on the roads. Of course, another thing we saw in the pandemic and we've seen for the past many decades is a boom in stationary bikes. People ride bikes without going anywhere at all on these bikes that don't move an inch. And that's just because

Starting point is 00:43:43 it feels good to turn the pedals and it's a great way to keep yourself physically fit. You talked earlier about the connection and the relationship between the bicycle and the car, but you also say there's a connection between bicycles and airplanes, flying machines. So explain that. From the very beginning, bicycles were kind of framed by people. Framed is maybe a bad pun. Let me say it a different way. People thought of bikes as kind of flying machines. This was because of, again, that feeling of freedom you have when you're riding the bike. Even that very first bike, which didn't have pedals, the bike that was invented in 1817 in Germany, people compared that bike to Pegasus, the winged stallion of Greek mythology. This was an idea that was really stuck around in culture and popular culture through the decades and across the two

Starting point is 00:44:39 centuries of the bike's existence. For instance, in the late 19th century, there were lots of advertisements that depicted bikes in outer space, kind of flying up to the moon and zooming around the stars. Think of the very famous scene in Steven Spielberg's E.T. where Elliot and E.T. with E.T. in the handlebar basket go for this incredible bike ride through the sky and are silhouetted against the moon. It's a very dreamy idea. But the fact is, it's not, as it turns out, just a dream, because there was this very important connection between the invention of the bicycle and the invention of the airplane. The Wright brothers, Orville and Wilbur Wright, were in fact bicycle mechanics and bike manufacturers. And during the period where they were sort of experimenting, trying to figure out how to invent an airplane, they used parts out of their bike shops to sort of do experiments.

Starting point is 00:45:38 They hitched up bicycle wheels in strange configurations to learn about how the phenomena of lift and drag worked. And what they realized, kind of the crucial breakthroughs they made in their ideas about how a plane could fly through the sky, what a pilot could do to operate a plane, come from the ideas of balance that they learned from bicycles. They were bicycle people and they realized in the same way that a cyclist could balance on his bike and keep it moving forward, well, maybe a pilot could do the same. So the right flyer, which finally touched off above the ground in the early 20th

Starting point is 00:46:17 century, was a device that they built using tools straight out of their bike shop. So there's this real kind of direct connection between the first airplane and the bicycle. And as I say, there's also this more nebulous or almost, you know, sensual connection between bikes and flying. If you think about the bicycle tire, it's filled with air. You're really riding on air when you turn the pedals and you zoom across the land. So in that sense, you know, when people say, oh, I feel like I'm flying when they're riding their bike, yeah, maybe in a sense, they are. Well, it's a great story, the story of the bicycle and a story that, you know, in many ways, we're all part of,

Starting point is 00:47:04 we're all participants in the history of the bicycle. Jody Rosen's been my guest. His book is called Two Wheels Good, The History and Mystery of the Bicycle. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Jody. Thanks, Mike. I really appreciate it. I grew up in the Northeast, in Connecticut mostly, and one of the things I always looked forward to in the summer, on those hot summer nights, was fireflies, or sometimes we called them lightning bugs.

Starting point is 00:47:34 But did you know that there aren't as many fireflies around as there used to be? The firefly population is shrinking worldwide, and one of the reasons fireflies are fading is due to what scientists call light pollution. Increased artificial illumination in what used to be rural areas are throwing off fireflies. It interrupts their ability to signal each other for mating, which means fewer baby fireflies for next year's light show. Even natural light sources inhibit them. Fireflies usually take the night off if there's a full moon. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:48:13 The next time you and your friends are sitting around talking about podcasts and someone asks what you listen to, I hope you'll tell them something you should know and that you'll suggest they do the same. I'm Mike Kerr Brothers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Starting point is 00:48:50 Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook.

Starting point is 00:49:13 Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again.

Starting point is 00:49:42 And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type.

Starting point is 00:50:10 With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.

Something You Should Know - Understanding Evil & How the Bicycle Transformed the World

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