Something You Should Know - What Body Language Really Reveals & How to Get More Things Done

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

That little white folded box Chinese takeout comes in may be one of the cleverest pieces of food packaging ever invented. What’s funny is—it isn’t Chinese at all. It was never originally designed to hold noodles or fried rice, and its origin story is far stranger and more American than most people realize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_pail People are constantly communicating—even when they never say a word. A glance, a shift in posture, crossed arms, the position of the feet, how long someone holds eye contact… body language can reveal confidence, discomfort, attraction, deception, status, and emotion in ways most people completely miss. But many popular beliefs about body language are also wrong or overly simplistic. Joe Navarro, former FBI counterintelligence and counterterrorism agent and one of the world’s leading experts on nonverbal communication, explains how body language really works, how to better read the people around you, and how understanding nonverbal behavior can dramatically improve your relationships and communication. He is author of Mastering Connections: Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language (https://amzn.to/4uB0PBo). Some people always seem rushed, overwhelmed, and behind—while others somehow manage to get an incredible amount done without appearing frantic. The difference may have less to do with time itself and more to do with how people think about time. Laura Vanderkam has spent years studying highly productive people and says many of us approach time completely backward. In our conversation, she explains why feeling “time poor” has become so common, how small changes in priorities can radically change your sense of control, and why having more time may actually begin with changing the story you tell yourself about it. Laura is author of Big Time: A Simple Path to Time Abundance (https://amzn.to/4x0cawK). Birdsong does more than create a pleasant soundtrack outdoors. Researchers have discovered that simply listening to birds sing can measurably reduce stress, anxiety, and even feelings associated with paranoia. Discover how listening to birds sing is truly music for your brain. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-20841-0 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS POCKET HOSE: For a limited time, when you purchase a new Pocket Hose Ballistic, you'll get a FREE 360 degree rotating pocket pivot and a FREE thumb drive nozzle! Just text SYSK to 64000 AIR DOCTOR: Head to https://AirDoctorPro.com and use promo code SYSK to get $250 off select AirDoctor air purifiers, including the 3500, 4000, and 5500 models. Plus, you’ll receive a free 3year warranty!  RULA: Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that’s actually covered by insurance. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Rula.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get started. QUINCE: Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! DELL:  With the Dell Pro laptop powered by Intel Core Ultra with vPro, no matter how many interruptions you have, your laptop won’t be one of them. With battery that’s optimized for the way you work, and built-in intelligence that quiets distractions the moment you’re trying to focus, your tech won’t slow you down.  Find out more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Dell.com/Dell-Pro⁠⁠⁠⁠ SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, on something you should know, there's something fascinating about Chinese takeout that has nothing to do with the food. Then, the fascinating science of body language. You might enter into a party and see someone you don't like. Your feet will immediately orient in a different direction. Now, maybe from head up, you'll say hi, but your feet will orient you away from that person. Also, how listening to Bird Sing can do wonders for your well-being and strategic help for people who never seem to have enough time to get things done. I think the first step, and people never want to hear this, is to actually try keeping track of your time for a week. A week tends to be the cycle of life as we actually live it.

And knowing where your time goes will allow you to make rational decisions about it. All this today on something you, You Should Know. You know, there is something fascinating about Chinese takeout that doesn't have anything to do with the food, and it isn't Chinese. And that's what we're going to start with today. Hi, I'm Mike Ruther Brothers, and this is something you should know. So the next time you get Chinese takeout, just take a second to admire the box it came in. Because that little folded carton is one of the great accidental American inventions.

What we call the Chinese takeout box wasn't invented in China at all. It was invented in Chicago in 1894 by an American inventor named Frederick Weeks Wilcox, who patented something called the Paper Pale. It was originally designed to carry oysters, not rice and Kung Pao Chicken. The genius of it is the design. It's one sheet of folded paper, inspired by Japanese origami techniques, and it creates a sturdy, leak-proof container with a built-in wire handle. Then after World War II, as Americans flocked to the suburbs

and takeout food exploded in popularity, Chinese restaurants discovered that this box was perfect for transporting hot food. By the 1970s, a designer added the pagoda graphic and the vaguely Asian-looking thank-you lettering, and just like that, an oyster carton became a... cultural icon. Interestingly, the Chinese takeout container is so not Chinese that if you go to China, you will almost never see it. And that is something you should know. We tend to think of body language as something that's easy to decode. Crossed arms means someone

is closed off. Looking up and to the side means they're lying. Except a lot of that just isn't true. Someone may cross their arms because it's comfortable to cross your arms. Looking away before answering could mean absolutely nothing. Real body language is far more subtle, and when you understand it, you can not only read people better, you can become more likable, trustworthy, and easier to connect with. Here to explain how body language really works is Joe Navarro. He's a former FBI Special Agent in Counterintelligence,

and counterterrorism. And he is one of the world's leading experts on nonverbal communication. He's author of a book called Mastering Connections, Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language. Hey, Joe, welcome to something you should know. Thanks for having me. So you've been talking about body language for a long time. Have there been any new advances?

I mean, is this really a science and is it coming along? Well, there's certainly many more advances than there were in 1971 when I first started to look at this. And if you, I mean, if you stay up with the literature, you're probably reading, as I do, anywhere from three to five peer-reviewed journal articles a week. That's how fast it's emerged. I think where we're at is the realization that, number one, it is the primary means by which we communicate. It is the number one means by which we assess for trustworthiness, for security. When we look through that peephole and we see who's knocking on the door, that's really what we're assessing for. It's obviously used in mate selection in most cultures.

And that's all very intuitive. We assess someone's trustworthiness or how our, our security feels with a person, we just do that. But knowing the science, what can we do with the science of it to take that to the next level? Well, the first thing is to realize that we're always transmitting information and so that we're being assessed for approachability, for friendliness, for our state of emotions. and at the same time, we can be assessing others to determine if they have, if they're hungry, if they have needs, if they have desires. But even preferences, something that you don't think about is if I were standing in front of you,

Mike, you might feel more comfortable if I was two and a half feet away. And I might argue, well, I prefer to be three feet away. Something like that where we can assess for preferences will determine. how long we will talk to each other. If you're uncomfortable at two feet, that's going to limit the amount of time we will have together. So there are social advantages. For instance, we know from the research that you will engage someone far longer if you stand at an angle to them than directly in front of them, that if you tilt your head, you'll be perceived as more trustworthy and reliable. So, So there are things that we can do to help others. There are things that we can use to change perceptions. And then of course, there are things that we can communicate when things are right or things are bothering us.

And so if you want to make a good first impression, is there enough objective criteria that this is what you do and this is what you don't do? That's a great question. It depends on the culture, but certainly for the most of the most of the most of the most of the most part, yes, good manners are appreciated everywhere. Every time you see a state visit, whether it's the president of the United States going to China or the French president going to another country. One of the things that you notice is that a big part of that game is the nonverbal. So there's enough ample research out there that says, yes, being polite.

being welcoming, not doing things that are distracting, paying attention to the person that is talking to you. For young people, is put the devices away. We know from the research that others, and my own company conducted, that the minute you plop a laptop computer in front of you and another person that your ratings go down, you're perceived as less accessible.

And in some cases, we noted that the overall satisfaction of the meeting goes down. And by the way, whether it's the airlines or hospitals, 70% of the questions that they ask, visitors or patients have to do with body language. You know, did the doctor sit and talk to you? Did they, you know, were they friend? I mean, these are all non-verbals. You would certainly notice that because you're. kind of being hyper vigilant when you're with a doctor like you know how is he acting because I'm

going to respond to that and and trust is such a big thing between you and your doctor you don't want to see any clues that he's not paying attention or she's not paying attention and so you're really paying attention to that yeah and interestingly since they started since the you know medical records now have to be digitized that's impact on how doctors are perceived, especially those that are typing into a tablet, they're perceived differently by patients. And that has affected their ratings. You know, there's different sites you can go to to rate your doctor. And it's not that you're getting less care. It's just that the fact that there's a device in the way that is distracting affects how you're perceived.

So if I'm in a brief meeting, and so often today we're interacting with people very briefly, and I want to project trust that I'm here to help or that I want to create a relationship here, are there things I can do that will really accelerate that? Absolutely. Pay attention to the person in front of you. Lean forward. tilt your head slightly to the to the side can't your head so you have more of the neck exposed and listen to how they talk and try to talk at the same pace right if somebody's a really fast talker and they you know don't slow things down too much try to keep up with with the person and the preferences for how they prefer that material if you have to use a laptop my recommend is and it's being used by a lot of financial institutions now is tell the person to get that

information I need to type something in put the device to the side so that it's not directly in front and as you're typing let them know exactly what you're doing so that they feel they're a part of that rather than being ignored by it and that makes for a huge difference. Boy, does that ever, because you don't know when someone is typing on a laptop in front of them in a meeting, they could be playing video games, they could be doing anything and completely ignoring you because you have no other information. I'll tell you how far it's gone, and I wish I could tell you the financial institution, but I have a long-term relationship with them. It's to the point now where they are with their high-end clients.

These people have flown in from all over the world to meet and so forth. The people involved in putting these packages together and in sales and in informing them, they are not to wear their smart watches because the tendency is to always be looking at your watch because messages are coming in or the market is fluctuating. And so one of the things that they've done, and it's worked beautifully, is to actually tell their client, you're so important to me, I'm going to take this off so that we're not distracted. And they're so appreciated.

They're so appreciated by that one gesture because they were getting terrible ratings of constantly feeling like they're competing with whatever is on the, on the smart watch. So, you know, everybody fears AI. And so what we're really down to is not the speed of information, but how information is delivered. Can this person, the salesperson or the doctor, whoever it is, can they convey those things that I need as a human to make a decision? And as it turns out, the human factor is now more important than ever. In a moment, I want to explore with you some of the common beliefs people have about certain body language clues and whether or not they're true in just a moment. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health.

We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longest shortest time.com. I'm speaking with Joe Navarro. He is a former FBI special agent in counterintelligence. and counterterrorism, and he's author of the book, Mastering Connections, Build Strong Relationships with the Science of Body Language.

So, Joe, there are certain beliefs people have about body language, like crossing your arms means you're defensive, or that you're closed up. And whether or not it's true, should you just not do it if you're inclined to do it and you're not feeling defensive, you're not feeling closed up, but maybe you should just not do it because of the message it sends. What do you think? The fact is, is that we cross our arms because it's a self-comfiting behavior. Yeah.

And it's one of the first behaviors that we learn while we're still in the uterus. We comfort ourselves as babies. In fact, that's the ideal position for the arms as we enter the birth canal. But there is still the misconception. And I think what overcomes that is the fact that if we have a big smile on our face as we're talking to somebody, I found myself in the hallway the other day in my building talking to another tenant and we're both leaning against the wall. We're both with our arms crossed. And we were in, you know, very comfortable doing so. So I tell people, you know, if you feel comfortable doing it, just do it. Don't worry about what other people. people may think because they'll see it in your face. They'll see it in your tone of voice. And hopefully, once again, let's not attach too much to one behavior when we should be looking at the totality of behaviors. But I've had people tell me, because I cross my arms when I'm

talking, because as you say, it's comforting. It's a good place to put your arms. And people will say, why are you so closed up? Why are you so defensive? I mean, they'll comment on And so I go, well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just talking to you. I'm not closed up at all. But people see that and they go, oh, well, we've got a problem here. And there's no problem. I don't, even I think, I've seen psychologists talk about this. That's what that means.

I've testified in federal courts. So you get 12, 12 psychiatrists and you'll get 12 different opinions. And it's like, were we looking at the same thing? That doesn't surprise me. You know, obviously when you have a more open gesture, it's an easier read. I think some of it is cultural. Some of it is comforting. Look how often when women go to the bathroom on an airplane and they're standing waiting, how they cross their arms.

It's a self-comfitting behavior. They're exposed. You know, they're being compelled. to stand in the alleyway while people are looking at them. And so it's a good way to comfort themselves. Talk about the handshake. As people have said, you know, you can tell a lot about a person from their handshake. Can you? Well, I wouldn't say you can tell a lot, but there's so many ways to do it wrong. I, you know, I do about 30 events a year in every single event. I always ask, how many of received a bad handshake and everybody raises her hand. And then I go, well, if all of you have

received a bad handshake, is it possible that one of you are doing it wrong? Oh, no, no. And as it turns out, a lot of people don't know how to shake hands and especially men. And they forget that you're not, you're not shooting a gun so that your index finger is forward, that your finger should always be pointed directly down and that the pressure should be equal to the other persons, that nobody's impressed if you have a really strong handshake and that it's very cultural. I mean, to the point where literally in Utah they have what's called a Mormon handshake where it's this very tight, very vigorous handshake of showing just how excited they are to meet. Well, you go anywhere else in the world and the handshakes are very light. But a limp handshake really sends me a message that,

I'm not sure what the message is, but I don't expect it. And when I get it, I don't like it. A lot of people don't. But, you know, because I deal with so many cultures, you know, if you go to Vietnam, if you go to China, if India, Pakistan, even in Saudi Arabia, the handshakes are really very light. I remember hearing, and maybe it was from you, that an interesting clue to whether somebody wants to talk to you is how their feet are pointed. Is that true? Well, definitely. Our feet are very honest. So when we are very safe and comfortable with a person in front of us, we will show what's called the ventral side, the chest side towards that person. And, of course, the feet follow.

When we're uncomfortable with a person, you might enter into a party and see someone you don't like. Your feet will immediately orient in a different direction. Now, at the hips, and maybe from head up, you'll say hi. but your feet will orient you away from that person. Your feet are extremely honest when it comes to that. In the same way that you could be on an elevator leaning against the wall with your legs cross, so you're basically off balance. But if a bunch of young people come in and you can smell alcohol on their breath,

you will immediately unveil those feet and put both feet planted firmly. Because your brain doesn't permit you to be off balance around a threat. And it prefers not to be facing to anyone that is a potential threat. Talk about the smile. It seems like that's important. It's emphasized a lot that you should smile. And certainly not smiling sends a message as much as I guess smiling does. but what about that? You know, smiling has always been powerful when we look at the literature from the

1500, 1600 of early explorers as they went around the world. They found that, you know, smiling was, in fact, very pervasive. And I think it's still one of those things that we look for. But, you know, with the research it's now been narrowed down to actually what really impresses people is when we greet them with our eyes when we greet with the eyebrow flash that is registers very well and babies actually notice that as early as a few days of age they can recognize when a when a mother does a eyebrow flash i think within two weeks they're they're definitely tuned into that And this smile, of course, is something that we can adapt. So, you know, the smile when I see my daughter, my wife, or a family member is probably different than when I see someone in my building that I haven't seen in a few weeks.

And so we can change our smile. And we can even have a totally fake smile where it's, you know, the lips are pulled to the side. but the eyes aren't engaged and so forth. And so, yeah, a smile can be faked. And that's why when I wrote about the feet being so honest, that's something your feet won't do. They pretty much let the world know how you feel about people. Well, reading body language is something that we all intuitively do.

and I think we're pretty good at like looking at somebody and getting a sense of what's going on here. And yet, there are also times when we're not doing it all that well. And sometimes when we're sending the wrong message about what we want people to read about us. So I appreciate you help clarifying a lot of that. I've been talking with Joe Navarro. He is a former FBI special agent in counterintelligence and counterterrorism. He is one of the world's leading experts on nonverbal communication, and he's author of the book Mastering Connections,

Build Stronger Relationships with the Science of Body Language. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Joe, always a pleasure. Thanks for being here. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19 speaker AKG surround audio.

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Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. How many times have you said to yourself, or out loud, there just isn't enough time? What if the problem, though, isn't that you don't have enough time, but that you think about time, all wrong. Because we all know people who somehow managed to run a business, raise kids, stay in shape, have hobbies, friendships, go on vacation, and they don't seem nearly as stressed as the rest of us. Meanwhile, most people feel like they're constantly behind trying to squeeze 30 hours into a 24-hour day. So what are those other people know that the rest of us don't? Is there actually a way to feel like you have more time?

Well, here to discuss this is Laura Vandercam. She is the author of seven books on time management. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Fortune, and Fast Company. And she's author of a book called Big Time, A Simple Path to Time Abundance. Hi, Laura. Welcome to something you should know. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

So explain what you mean by time abundance, because we all have the same amount of time every day. and, you know, some people seem to do fine with that, and some people wish they had more. Do they have more? Is there such a thing as time abundance? I think so many of us are walking through life with this story of time scarcity, right? Like, there isn't enough time for everything we want to get to. There aren't enough hours in the day. Big time is about what happens when you move beyond that story and you start adopting a mindset of time abundance. I think there are some really good arguments that we have more time than we think that even the busiest among us has some discretionary time and that many times

when we zoom out and look at time from a bigger perspective, we are able to fit in a lot more than we might originally think. So I think by adopting this story of time abundance, we really can start falling in love with our schedules, and that's what I want for everyone. Do you think that given these two options, that time scarcity is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you think you don't have enough time, then you don't have enough time? Or is it more a sense of people aren't managing their time very well so they think they don't have enough time, but they're actually wasting a lot of time? I think both can be simultaneously true.

There is certainly the case that when we tell ourselves the story that we have no free time whatsoever, well, then you don't ask what you want to do with your time, because why would you bother? I mean, you have no time. So this is a pointless question. But then what happens when discretionary time appears, as it does for everyone, even in small chunks, is that you do whatever is easiest. And these days, that tends to be our electronic hobbies. of doom scrolling, checking social media comments, things like that.

And that time almost feels as if it didn't happen. And so we don't acknowledge it necessarily as real leisure time. And then we can keep repeating that story that we have no free time whatsoever. But as you notice, I mean, that also plays into the idea of not spending our time necessarily in the ways that we would if we thought about it. I imagine most people, if they were kind of looking at their lives objectively, would not be like, hey, I want to do as my hobby two and a half hours a day of random online activity. And yet, that's what many people wind up doing. So when we don't approach time intentionally, we tend to spend it on things that aren't necessarily meaningful or important for ourselves and the people we care about. But when we switch that, we can often make time for a lot more fun and meaningful things.

And to switch that means to do what? It really is about thinking through your time before you are in it. The problem with time and what makes it so challenging to manage, it keeps moving regardless of what you do. I mean, whether you make conscious choices or not, you are eventually going to be on the next side of the next 24 hours. You will eventually be on the next side of the next 168 hours. You'll be on the other side of the next year, whether you think about it or not, right? And so it is easy to spend time mindlessly to do whatever is seeming most urgent at any given moment. So the key to using time well is to have some moment in your life where you step outside that flow of time and look at the time that is ahead of you and ask what you.

you would like to do with it. Like, what would you like to see in the next day, in the next week, in the next year? What is most important to you? What would you genuinely be looking forward to? Are there ways to make that happen? And obviously, life doesn't always go as planned, but when we put some thought into it, we drastically increase the chances that we spend time in the ways that we wish to spend our time. Is wasting time as big a problem as people say it is and think it is, you waste so much time? Is that a real problem? Or is wasting time, is my wasting time, not necessarily your wasting time? You may think I'm wasting time, but I'm not. I think there's lots of ways that people talk about wasting time. And some of those are not wasting time at all. I mean,

there's a wonderful poem about, you know, lying out in the grass, looking at the sky, wasting time. And it's like, well, that's not really wasted time. Like in this modern life where, you know, we have constant distractions from everything, actually making a choice to go lie outside and stare at the clouds for, I don't know, 20 minutes might feel impossibly long for many of us. And so somebody might call that wasted time, but I think that open space and that breathing room might feel like a very productive use of time for many people. What I think is where this goes the other direction, I think it's quite possible to

wasting time doing things that look somewhat productive. Like if you were just in your inbox five minutes ago and you go back in your inbox again, I would argue that that might not have been the best use of time. I mean, it certainly looks like what we'd call productive. You're working. You're getting stuff done. You're deleting those messages. But I'm not sure that in the grand scheme of things, we're going to put on our tombstone that we deleted all our email. So we might want to think about that a little bit. So is someone who uses time well, someone who schedules their time pretty clearly, even if on the schedule there is time to do nothing, but that at least you schedule it, is scheduling a key factor in this or not? I think it is, but I want to be careful

with that verb schedule because people hear that and they think I mean like, okay, every 15 minutes has to be allocated to this or this, like we do with a work schedule. Our outlook schedules are in these 15-minute blocks. And so if we change that schedule and more think about what would we intend to do with the time, right? So, I mean, one of the things I'm always telling people to do, if you think about like a weekday evening, very hard to use this time well. Many cases, time seems to get away from us. We're just, you know, you're done with work, and the next thing you know, it's bedtime.

and what happened with the time in between. So even just thinking about where in the evening could I spend 30 minutes on something I am actively choosing can change the entire feeling of this time? Now, in a way, that was scheduling, but I don't think many people would use that verb if they're sort of thinking like, oh, yeah, well, after I'm done with the dishes, I'm going to sit down and read a book for 30 minutes before it's time to start the bedtime routine with the kids, right? That is scheduling, but I'm not sure that's the verb we'd use. So if we could kind of get past that negative connotation that maybe scheduling has and think more about intentions, I think that

is the real key to using time well. But can you keep those intentions and those schedules in your head or does there need to be a schedule, a thing, a piece of paper or a screen that says between nine and ten, we're doing this? It depends on how many things you have. going on. If your evening is just you or maybe one other adult, you know, and you're probably just going to be at your house, then I think you could have a rough idea, a sort of a contingent schedule, if you will, like, oh, yeah, we chatted before we both left work. We've decided that we're going to, you know, go for a walk after dinner. That's our intention for the evening. I don't say that we don't necessarily need to write that down anywhere because you're both knowing you're going into

doing it. Now, on the other hand, a lot of people who wind up finding me are kind of, in what I might call the busy years, where they, in addition to wanting to do that evening walk, are also driving three kids to basketball practice and swim team. And so if that's what your evening tends to look like, then yes. I think you probably do want to have somewhere on the calendar.

I would like to carve 30 minutes out of the circus and go for a walk. But the time might still be there to do it. And by having the intention to have that happen, you can still make a little bit of fun and relaxation into what might be a busy, time of day. But do you think that personality plays a role in this, meaning that some people are very good at writing everything down and keeping track and other people are just more

loosey-goosey and they could no more write a schedule and stick to it? And that's just who they are. And to try to get them to do that is running against the grain. I think some of us are obviously more temperamentally drawn to this than others. I mean, there's a reason I chose to management as a career versus other things. And certainly many of the people who I talk to and who are into this are probably more naturally given to thinking of time and discrete units and like what can happen in this unit of time. How much time is this going to take me? Is there space for it? What else can fit? What needs to happen sequentially for this to occur? Some people may be less naturally given to that. The problem, though, is if you want to have a sort of full-life,

with many things going on, if you want to build a career, if you want to raise a family, you want to have time for your own pursuits, maybe volunteering or, you know, doing some sort of athletic pursuit or having a hobby, it becomes increasingly difficult to do all these things without being more organized about your time. And so I find that sometimes when people are saying, oh, it's impossible to do X and Y to gather, what that is really getting at is they don't find it intuitive to manage all the working parts of their time, which may be going on, you know, simultaneously and in sequence and stuff. But I think everyone can learn. And I have definitely seen people who are not naturally given to this, but for instance, they become

parents. And both they and their spouse plan to continue working. And then they have another kid. And now they are managing many things going on. And they don't want to live in chaos. And so even if they're not naturally given to that, they start thinking through, okay, well, as I'm looking forward to the next week, what is the most important to happen in my professional life? What is most important to happen with friends and family? What is most important to happen for myself?

When roughly do I think those things can happen? They may not have had the color-coded spreadsheet for the calendar or anything like that, but the intention still becomes there, because I realize it's just a more calm way to live. So if somebody wants to get a better grip on all of this, yeah, how do you do it? I mean, I understand a lot of it depends. But like if you wanted to sit down and try to figure out how to do this better, what's a, give me like a, how do I do it?

I think the first step, and people never want to hear this, is to actually try keeping track of your time for a week. A week tends to be the cycle of life as we actually live. of it. And knowing where your time goes will allow you to make rational decisions about it. Many times people think something is a problem, and it turns out not to actually be a problem. Sometimes people think that, you know, things they've never even considered are taking more time than they imagine. So like any business decision, you want to work from good data. And the only way to get that data is to keep track of your time. So I'm always suggesting, people try tracking their time for a week. And if you've never done this before, it might be a little

complicated the first time you do it because you're trying to describe the amorphous nature of what we spend our time doing in words. But it's okay to have broad brushstrokes. For instance, if I am just like hanging out at the house, not doing anything in particular, I will put hang out, et cetera, or kids, etc. That's how I describe a lot of that sort of amorphous kid time that tends to happen when you have younger kids. But by at least getting a reasonable sense of where the time goes, you can start to, you know, say, okay, well, this is what a work week truly looks like. These are how many hours I am generally working and when. That means that this other time is available for other things, whether that's my family or personal responsibilities or whether it's discretionary time. This is roughly when I sleep. This is, you know, is that good or bad? How do I feel about it? Does it look like I'm getting enough Is it more sort of orderly every night getting about the same amount or is it short some night, long other nights? Are there long stretches of time where it's very hard for me to describe what I'm doing? If that is the case, how do I feel about that? Am I doing rejuvenating things or is it just

disappearing through my fingertips? But when you see where the time goes, then you can start building in rituals of asking what you would like to have fill your future time logs. And that's where we start really seeing the breakthroughs. An example of seeing the breakthroughs would be like what? Well, one from my own life is I've tracked my time for many years now. And when I first started, you know, between working and having a young family, I didn't necessarily think that there was a ton of time for a hobby that would require being in a certain place at a certain time.

But I looked at my evenings. And there were often, you know, all seven evenings of the week were just, this kind of amorphous kid time where I was half trying to do other things. And, you know, it was hard to describe what it was. I was like, well, I could probably take one night off from that and, you know, do something else. And I would still be doing whatever that amorphous kid time is, the other six nights of the week. And maybe I'd be a little bit more focused from having had a break. So I decided to start singing in a choir. Having tracked my time convinced me that on the 168 hours of a week.

Could I take two to go to a rehearsal? Well, probably I could. And so I started doing that. And it brought a ton of joy to my life. And so often, I think time tracking is not about playing gotcha. Like, ooh, you thought you were busy, but I see two hours of YouTube on here or something like that. It's really not about that at all.

It's about helping us see possibility. Because I really do think that even extremely busy people will often see that some time is more amorphous or hard to describe or not necessarily going places that they think are, you know, top priorities in their lives. And some of that time, maybe with a little bit of, you know, working on the logistics, could be repurposed for other things. And so, you know, I made that happen in my life in between my husband, babysitter. You know, I get myself to rehearsal on Thursday night and I've enjoyed doing it.

The idea that when we started talking about this sense that people have, that there's not enough time and there's, you know, there aren't enough hours in the day, is the goal to get rid of that feeling or is the goal to accept that feeling and somehow work around it? Well, if you don't think you can get rid of the sense that there aren't enough hours in the day, I mean, I can tell you that a day is probably not the right unit of measure. to be looking at. Many things that seem like they are conflicts when you are looking at one particular day become less of them when you zoom out. So, for instance, if I had looked at only Thursdays and said, well, wow, I'm working and then I'm taking time away from my family in the evening to go do choir, like, look, my hobby and family are in conflict and I can't do this. But it was looking at the whole of the week and seeing that there were seven nights of this amorphous time. that allowed me to think, well, I could take one of those and go do something else. So I think often when people are thinking that there aren't enough hours in the day, it's that they want to do lots of things in their life, and they have this story that they're supposed to happen daily.

But a great many things that are important to our lives do not actually have to happen daily. Sometimes I wonder when people say, oh, I'm so busy and there's not enough time, and I can't get everything done, it's almost like a badge of honor. Like, you know, look at me, I'm so busy. And, you know, I'm not so busy. I don't have that many things to do. I mean, I have plenty of to do, but I don't feel overwhelmed by it. And I think sometimes people, you know, you ask them, how are you doing?

Busy, I'm really busy. Well, okay, but are you really busy? Well, busy has become the equivalent of fine, which is an interesting sort of social observation. like why we use busy when we mean fine. I try not to use that word in conversation anymore. I'm more just because it also kind of kills the conversation. Like, you know, okay, busy, what do I do with that? Or somebody says like, oh, how is your weekend?

If you say one thing that you did that can start a conversation, like, oh, I went to a botanical garden near the house. Have you ever been there? Then you could have a real conversation with someone. So I try to kind of flip that narrative a little bit. But I'm with you. I think you can have a full life with lots of moving parts and still not feel that kind of rushed and frantic nature that is implied by the word busy. I like to schedule my life with lots of things, but still put in some breathing room. And I think the breathing room helps me feel like I'm a little less busy. And there is space for the things I want to do. Well, I know you've researched this,

where you've written seven books about it, and I think your advice is really helpful to people who struggle with time, and I think a lot of us do. I've been talking to Laura Vandercombe. She's author of, as I just said, seven books on time management. Her latest is called Big Time,

A Simple Path to Time Abundance. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Laura, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. You know, it would be hard not to like the sound of birds singing. And in fact, researchers have found that even a few minutes of bird song

can improve your mood and reduce anxiety. One study published in scientific reports found that people who listened to birds singing felt less anxious, less stressed, and even less paranoid afterwards. Traffic noise had the opposite effect. it actually increased those negative feelings. Other research suggests that birdsong may also help restore focus and mental clarity because the brain tends to interpret natural sounds as signs the environment is safe. So the next time you hear birds chirping outside, don't tune it out.

Your brain may interpret those sounds as nature's version of, relax. Everything is okay. and that is something you should know. You like this podcast since you have listened to this whole episode. I bet your friends and family would like it as well. And we would appreciate it if you would tell them and share with them this episode or any episode. So we get to grow our audience and your friends and family get to become listeners. I'm Mike Her Brothers.

Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award-winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health, and we're covering it all. Birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy, menopause, consent, sperm. So many stories about sperm. And, of course, the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages.

If you're new to the show, check out an episode called The Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids. school to teach sex ed. Spoiler, I get it to happen, but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talk to plenty of non-parents, so you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or at longest shortest time.com.