Something You Should Know - What Lack of Human Connection Does to You & How Roads Impact the World

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Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, what is love? I've got one of the best definitions you'll ever hear. Then, we live in a world where people are more lonely, isolated, and socially excluded than ever before. Research has shown where they put people in MRIs and they experience social exclusion that that experience of social exclusion registers in the central nervous system much like physical pain. So social exclusion is painful.

Starting point is 00:01:00 Also, what your shoes say about your personality. And roads. Many of the 40 million miles of roads in the U.S. go right through animal habitats and there is a painful cost. Between two and four hundred drivers die every year in deer collisions and you know all of those crashes cost society more than eight billion dollars every every year in vehicle repairs and hospital bills and insurance costs all this today on something you should know metro links and cross links are reminding everyone to be careful as eglinton crosstown lrt train

Starting point is 00:01:37 testing is in progress please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello there. Welcome to Something You Should Know. If you have ever wondered, or maybe someone's asked you, what love really is, here is a definition that I think is as good or better than any other.

Starting point is 00:02:25 In a nutshell, love is a response to I think is as good or better than any other. In a nutshell, love is a response to getting your needs met. When someone satisfies a need, you feel pleasure and a fondness for that person. And over time, it turns into love. This definition is from Dr. Pat Love, who has extensively researched the topic of love and is author of a book called The Truth About Love. It turns out, says Dr. Love, that love cannot sustain itself. Research shows that loving, stable couples have hundreds of small kindnesses per day. And when someone treats you with kindness, it results in feelings of fondness, which result in love.

Starting point is 00:03:05 And that is something you should know. I'm sure you've heard this idea that human beings are social creatures. We need other people. We have to be part of a group or a community. It's just part of who we are. We have a need to belong. And yet it seems today we're more divided than ever, politically and also just people seem to keep to themselves. Today people don't know their neighbors like people used to. Church participation is down.

Starting point is 00:03:38 It just seems we're more isolated despite this need of being part of a group. Here to shed some light on this and explain why belonging is so important and how to make sure you're part of a community is Jeffrey Cohen. He is a professor of psychology and organizational studies at Stanford University, and he's author of a book called Belonging, The Science of Creating Connection and Bridging Divides. Hi, Jeffrey. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you Mike, it's great to be here. So this idea that people who need people are the luckiest people in the world,

Starting point is 00:04:15 that we have to be part of a group, that we need to belong. Well, how much do we need this? How important is this? How big a deal? It is a fundamental need. Human beings seem to have a need to belong much as they have a need for food, a need for shelter. It is who we are. It is who we are. And we've evolved to be very sensitive to the experience of exclusion. In fact, research by Naomi Eisenberg and Matt Lieberman has shown where they put people in MRIs and they experience social exclusion, that that experience of social exclusion registers in the central nervous system, much like the experience of physical pain. So social exclusion is painful. And that's just

Starting point is 00:05:07 sort of one bit of evidence that our bodies, our physiology has evolved to be sensitive to whether or not we're with other people and whether we're included or excluded by them. And it's a need. And as a species, we know human beings were out there in the wild, were easily threatened by various threats, including other creatures, physical wounding, but together, working together with other people, we're strong. And we've become the dominant species because of this ability to cooperate together in common purpose. And even down to the level of our genes researched by John Cassioppo and Steve Cole suggests our genome actually responds or functions differently when we are alone.

Starting point is 00:05:59 It ends up putting us in a kind of fight or flight state with greater bodily inflammation. When we experience that state of feeling lonely, our genome actually puts us on alert to say, this is a bad state to be in. Because what happens, especially in the modern world, if you're alone, you're not threatened by, you know, typically threatened by a tiger or a lion or, you know, some other predator. So today, being alone isn't necessarily going to kill you. But what are the problems of being alone that aren't that obvious? We've evolved to have this response such that when we're alone, we know we're physically vulnerable and our bodies

Starting point is 00:06:48 go into a sort of fight or flight state or sort of threat state. And it was highly functional, you know, in the periods where we're evolving. But today, most, as you're suggesting, most of the threats that we experience are sort of social in nature. We're not going to die. And yet we still have the same kind of, we still register it the same way as exclusion because that's kind of how we've been evolutionarily programmed. So this mechanism that we've evolved to have is something that gets us a bit into trouble in the modern world when we feel excluded, but there's actually not as much sort of physical danger. But yet when people feel chronically lonely as lonely individuals do, it can create a sort of have devastating health effects.

Starting point is 00:07:38 In fact, the research suggests that the effects of being chronically lonely are roughly equivalent in terms of risk to health and and mortality to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or even being an alcoholic so this is who we are our bodies respond this way because we've evolved to know that yeah when we're alone we're in danger it's a threatening situation and that is both for good and for ill but in the But in the modern world, that can kind of get us into some trouble. And when you look at people who are isolated,

Starting point is 00:08:12 who are lonely, and who feel that need to belong, is that need so strong that you'll belong to any group rather than no group. Belonging is always about belonging to a group. So it's always situated. We're seeking to belong somewhere, to have some port on the shore. And when we feel just disconnected, as an increasing number of Americans do, there's a sort of suite of consequences, one being physical illness, another being emotional distress. And as you're suggesting, a third being that we become vulnerable to the appeals of extremists and even erroneous people in groups with erroneous positions because they offer us a sense of belonging. You know. One of the most interesting lines of research in this area is by Ari Kruglansky, who's studied over the past 10 years the psychology

Starting point is 00:09:13 of extremist and terrorist groups. And he's also worked with a former neo-Nazi who started an organization to bring back extremists into the mainstream. His name is Christian Picchiolini. And I'll just sort of sum up in a statement what the conclusion of that research is that Christian Picchiolini put it this way. He said, you know, you talk to any former extremists and they'll tell you the same thing. They joined that group because they wanted a sense of belonging. And initially, people don't subscribe to the hateful or extremist ideologies of the group. It's really a kind of barter or a trade that they're sort of joining the group to get that sense of belonging. And in exchange, they sort of sell their soul. Now, this is not something that is a lawful effect.

Starting point is 00:10:05 These are just general trends, but it seems to be the case that many people join these groups because of a sense that they or their larger group is disconnected from the rest of humanity. And the groups offer a sort of port in the shore, a sense of belonging. And one of my favorite examples of this

Starting point is 00:10:22 is a story from the 1970s, C.P. Ellis. He was a former member of the KKK. He was a grand wizard of the KKK. And then he later turned and became a civil rights leader and activist. And the story is just so fascinating. But one of the things he says is that he became a member of the KKK and joined because he just felt desperate. He felt alone. He was disconnected from his family. He was poor. And then when he was recruited and when he ultimately sat down, kneeled down before the altar at the KKK and people applauded, he said, I felt finally like someone who mattered, like someone who belonged. So I do think that belonging is a powerful need that can be channeled both for good and for ill. So I imagine I know the answer to this next two questions, but I'm still going to ask them anyway.

Starting point is 00:11:19 We hear today that we're more disconnected than ever. A, is that true? And B, why, if it is true? Well, there was a recent meta analysis that showed from 1976 to 2016, loneliness has increased pretty linearly in the United States. So it is going up. Meanwhile, as we know, polarization is increasing,

Starting point is 00:11:42 at least affective polarization, as suggested by research by Shanto Iyengar and others, the degree to which people hate the political outgroup has increased dramatically over the past roughly 30 to 40 years. So much so that in 2020, roughly 40% of each party said that members of the other party were downright evil. So those are just sort of two indicators of how connection is decreasing and mistrust and alienation are increasing. Meanwhile, just to give one more other bit of evidence, some work by Gene Chuenje has found that worldwide there's a decrease in school belonging among teenagers. Teens feel increasingly disconnected from school. And that's important because it turns out that school belonging is one of the best predictors of mental and emotional well-functioning, including actually behavioral adaptation, that kids who feel

Starting point is 00:12:46 better connected in school are healthier. These are correlational studies, but they're healthier, they're less mentally distressed, and they're less likely to make reckless decisions that could undermine their future. We're talking about our human need to connect and why we're not getting the connections we need. And my guest is Jeffrey Cohen. He's a professor of psychology at Stanford University and author of the book Belonging, the science of creating connection and bridging divides. Whether in the game or in life, the right coverage can make all the difference. Securian Canada gives you that coverage.

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Starting point is 00:14:32 There's a lot of research in social psychology showing that contact creates connection. Just sharing a space together. And increasingly, in so many ways, we have fewer opportunities for contact. The number, for example, of Americans who don't have a best friend has increased, I think, from roughly 3% now to roughly 1 in 10. Actually, more than 1 in 10 Americans say they don't have the best friend to confide in. We're isolated as a culture. Meanwhile, Democrats and Republicans are increasingly isolated from each other. There was a lovely paper showing that Democrats and Republicans are increasingly living in geographic micro clusters, isolated from each other. And as a result, roughly 20 million voters in America, mostly in the coastal regions, but also in the Midwest for them, only one in 10 of their daily encounters are with someone from the political outgroup. So I would say media, social media,

Starting point is 00:15:30 and the increasing segregation and isolation of American life are aspects of our situations that have changed that might play some role. For me, in my work, I am a bit less interested in the why and a bit more interested in what we can do about it. And there are so many points of optimism here, things that we can do, the research suggests, that create connection and bridge divides in our daily lives. When you talk about people who don't have a best friend, they don't feel they belong, is it because they've chosen not to, or they're out there trying and they fail, or they don't think it's important? Why? I think all those things are true, don't you? I think that it's a multifaceted problem. I think it's, you know, part of it is about the culture of individualism in America, which has risen. Individualism has gone up over the years. I'm not saying individualism is a bad thing. It's a great thing, these sort of individualistic accomplishments, they think that these things will make them happy. But actually, for most of us, that doesn't really

Starting point is 00:16:50 bring a whole lot of happiness. What really brings us happiness is connection. And so people end up making these, you know, one answer to your question is, I think is that what social psychologists call an affective forecasting error. The things we think will bring us that fulfillment in our lives actually are not. And we make these decisions to our detriment. One such decision I think that we make is choosing cheap calories for connection rather than more healthy connections. And social media is a great example of this. I'm not saying that social media of this. I'm not saying that social media is terrible. I'm not saying that social media can't be a bridge for creating connection among individuals. But on the whole, it's not as fulfilling. Those encounters and connections

Starting point is 00:17:37 we have on social media are not as fulfilling as the authentic, often face-to-face encounters that we have in our daily life, the conversations that we have with one another in our daily lives, having adventures together with other people, working together in common projects. Those kinds of connection are much more fulfilling than these sort of cheap dopamine blasts that we get on social media. And there's an increasing number of studies showing, for instance, that just having people put themselves out there in the real world, make a connection, have a conversation with someone, get to know someone, even your barista, that that improves their well-being pretty dramatically, even though people think it won't. It actually has a big boost. It leads to a big boost to their happiness. Is there some sort of objective measure of like,

Starting point is 00:18:30 how much connection do you need in order to fit the description of being connected? Is there like a, is there a line in the sand that says, if you've got two friends, you're good to go or what? That's a great question. It turns out that social connection is really a subjective affair by and large. Now, it is true that in this recent meta-analysis, they did find that people who are physically isolated from others, who do have fewer friends, also suffer pretty major health consequences, as it seems correlated with, with their, their disconnection. But even there, there's some subjectivity and, you know, what counts as few friends, what counts as a lot of friends. And, um, I think the bottom line of a

Starting point is 00:19:16 lot of research is, is, is just that, that it is not something that's quantified. You really, it's a first person experience that people have, a general assessment of what is my level of connection with the people, with people in my social circle and the larger community to which I belong. Yeah, because there are also people that you would call them loners who don't have a lot of social interaction and social contact, but they're fine and they, or they seem fine. They, that's just their preference. They don't need a lot of that stimulation. I know that. I think that's such an interesting research topic. Uh, there's these people like JP Salinger, uh, who was, uh, he was a big writer, but then he, he just, uh, ensconced himself in his

Starting point is 00:20:00 home for the last, I think, 30 years of his life just writing by himself. And he produced a lot of manuscripts and he just put them away in his safe, never shared them with the world. There are these people who seem, it seems, to not need as much connection. So I'm not saying, I think there is research on this showing that people vary in the degree of their need to belong. And there are individual differences, but by and large, we do need each other. And we do need that sense that we're part of something bigger than ourselves, part of a larger community.

Starting point is 00:20:36 I think it's very hard for people who feel isolated, who feel lonely to, quote, get out there. That's the advice. Well, if you want to meet people, get out there. That's the advice. Well, if you want to meet people, go out and meet people. But that's tough. So do you have some advice? I mean, what works, typically works, to get people connected? You know, one of the best ways to create a sense of community and fellowship

Starting point is 00:21:01 is by joining together with other individuals in common purpose. And that's why volunteer organizations and service organizations are so effective for teen youth who might otherwise feel lonely and disconnected from their peers. It turns out that, yeah, one of the best interventions is getting them involved in service where they are working with other kids together in common purpose. So I would say, you know, join an organization, join a club, work for some purpose bigger than yourself. I think we do get trapped.

Starting point is 00:21:32 We do get trapped when we start to kind of ruminate and try to figure out like, why am I feeling so bad? And I start to feel bad that I'm feeling so bad. I just get into this sort of ruminative circle. The solution doesn't lie within, it lies without. You got to kind of get out there into the world and join these structured organizations or clubs or groups that will make you feel part of something bigger than yourself. Also, you know, one of the messages I think of the research is just that belonging is not found. Belonging is not found. Belonging is created. in even the minutia of social life we can

Starting point is 00:22:08 make these very small decisions that make us feel closer so for instance just planning a weekly dinner party uh get together or a book club taking some agency to kind of create regular connections in your social life not just one-offs, but sort of structured planning that puts you in contact with people that you like and enjoy, that's another solution. It can be very hard to connect with someone that you disagree with. And you see this in politics, people having political conversations, and they're on opposite sides of an issue. It seems difficult for people like that to connect in the way you're talking about because they have opposing views.

Starting point is 00:22:51 Some lovely research from one of my former students, Michael Schwabe, showed that in political conversations, when you give your view to someone from the other side, there's one thing that you can do that increases trust and helps the other person to have empathy for your point of view. Actually, dramatically so. And what is it? It's simply when you present your opinion saying beforehand, I think. So qualifying your views with, from my perspective, this is what I think, helps other people, kind of creates a space for other people who may feel differently from you to feel included and feel like their views matter.

Starting point is 00:23:34 And he finds that that actually even opens up people from the political opposition to changing their views or at least finding out more about your views. Something I've always found interesting is that if connection is so vital, so important to human beings, why it is so hard, why you can walk into a room of strangers at a party or an event, all these people are potential connections. It is so hard to start a conversation and to try to connect.

Starting point is 00:24:05 You know, there might be a negativity bias, what's called the negativity bias, where we're really attuned to how things can go wrong. You know, it's sort of one of the themes of a lot of research is just we're sensitive to loss, losses in status, losses in prestige, losses in regard. And so it may be the case that in a lot of these social settings, we just want to get out of there with our self-image intact. We want to save face. And I think that these sorts of defenses that we have against feeling belittled actually can get in the way of connecting. And there's research that suggests that we actually overestimate the

Starting point is 00:24:44 extent to which other people are judging us in many of those kinds of situations that you mentioned, that we think people are judging us more harshly than they actually are. But because we kind of are feeling that we're being judged or that we might be judged, we're much more cautious, less vulnerable. And if we're less vulnerable and more cautious, we're not going to feel accepted for who we are. Well, it does seem that there are so many forces pushing us away from each other rather than bringing us together in groups and communities. I think it's really important to have these conversations and shine a light on this.

Starting point is 00:25:17 I've been talking with Jeffrey Cohen. He is a professor of psychology and organizational studies at Stanford. And his book is Belonging, the Science of Creating Connection and Bridging Divides. And there's a link to the book in the show notes. Thanks, Jeffrey. Thanks for coming on and talking about this. Oh, thanks so much, Mike.

Starting point is 00:25:36 I really appreciate it. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast.

Starting point is 00:26:13 And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue.

Starting point is 00:26:41 It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you and I and just about everybody else does every day is travel somewhere on a road. Roads are our pathway to get where we want to go to do what we need to do.

Starting point is 00:27:34 In the U.S., there are 40 million miles of roads, mostly all somehow connected. You can navigate your way to just about any road from just about any other road in the U.S., no matter how far away it is. Yet we don't think much about the roads we take or the impact they have, but they have quite an impact, particularly on other creatures, because many roads that we lay down happen to run through other creatures' habitat. This is more important than you might think, and here to explain why is Ben Goldfarb. He's an accomplished writer whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, National Geographic, and The New York Times, amongst other publications. And he is author of a book called Crossings, How Road Ecology is Shaping the Future of Our Planet.

Starting point is 00:28:26 Hi, Ben. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks so much for having me, Mike. As I said, you know, I don't think people give a lot of thought to roads. Roads are just the thing we take. We take a road to travel. That's what we do. But why, what's so important about this to you? Why roads?

Starting point is 00:28:50 As you say, for humans, they're these kind of fundamental corridors of connection. They get us to schools and hospitals and workplaces. You know, they're kind of symbols of mobility and freedom. Right. But for, you know, for all other species, essentially, they are the exact opposite. You know, they're forces of death and division that, and division that curtail wild animal movements and migrations. So we tend to ignore the environmental cost of roads, I think, precisely because we don't notice them. They're such ubiquitous parts of our daily lives. And yet, if you're a coyote or a bobcat or an elk or a moose, they're one of the primary forces constraining

Starting point is 00:29:25 your life. How so? Well, on a number of different levels. I mean, of course, you know, there's roadkill, right? We've all seen, you know, the dead animal by the side of the road. And, you know, again, I mean, roadkill is one of those phenomena that's so common, we kind of take it for granted. And yet it's, you know, a force of biodiversity loss and extinction

Starting point is 00:29:45 on an enormous scale. You know, more than a million animals are killed every day in the United States by cars. And, you know, for species like Florida panthers and tiger salamanders, you know, roadkill is a true existential extinction threat. But, you know, there are other, many other ways in which roads are problematic. You know, there's the barrier effect, right? The kind of the steady stream of traffic that prevents animals from migrating and thus, you know, denies them access to habitats. There's the road noise, you know, the noise pollution that's, you know, chasing them away from from roadsides. There's all of the road salt that we apply to de-ice our highways that has enormous ecological impacts in rivers and lakes. So there's this whole spectrum of ecological disasters that roads cause that are hugely harmful to wildlife.

Starting point is 00:30:35 So I've seen pictures of these structures, like they look like bridges, but they're not for cars, they're for animals. And they go over highways. And instead of being paved for motor vehicles, they have grass and trees and they're park like. And animals use those, right? Animals definitely use them. Yeah. You know, and one really kind of important piece of them is that, you know, they're usually fences along the roadsides approaching them. So the fences kind of guide the animals to the entrances of those crossings. And, you know, yeah, as you say, they're kind of habitats in their own right.

Starting point is 00:31:11 You know, oftentimes engineers will plant them with shrubs and trees and grasses. You know, the idea being you're trying to, you know, create a little corridor of habitat that animals will actually use. You know, you want animals to feel comfortable crossing those bridges and going through those tunnels and, you know, making them into little ecosystems is one way to accomplish that. But nobody's suggesting that we do away with roads, are they? No, I mean, certainly, you know, I don't suggest that. I mean, I use roads every day, like, you know, nearly all of us do. But there are places where removing roads is possible and makes some sense. I was talking a second ago about all

Starting point is 00:31:53 of those dirt roads up in our national forests. And a lot of those roads were sort of historically used for logging. And now they've kind of outlived their useful life and are still causing environmental harm, but they're not valuable for people. So, you know, those sorts of roads, you know, we should be removing those roads on a massive scale. You know, there are other cases on the other end of the spectrum. You know, there are a number of urban freeways that were built in the 1950s and 60s and have done a lot of damage to our cities by, you know, sort of displacing communities. And, you know, there are cities like Rochester and Milwaukee, you know, that have removed big chunks of those urban freeways to create, you know, more walkable, livable communities and neighborhoods. So, you know, I mean, look,

Starting point is 00:32:36 we have 4 million miles of road in this country, right? The vast majority of that is not going anywhere. But, you know, there are certain really egregious roads that have kind of outlived their useful life that we can still unmake. How could a dirt road be an ecological problem? It's just a place where there isn't anything growing right now, but one day there will be if nobody uses it. So what harm could it possibly be doing? Yeah, you know, on a couple of levels. I mean, one is that kind of erosion issue, you know, because they're dirt, you know, you get a big rainstorm or a big snow melt in the spring, and, you know, and all of that runoff kind of liquefies that dirt and just sends it racing

Starting point is 00:33:22 downstream and, you know, and clogs up, racing downstream and clogs up streams and smothers fish eggs, that sort of thing. Yeah. So here's the thing, and I don't mean to sound cold or cruel about this, but you're talking about how roads being roads destroy fish eggs and we have road kill and that we should be concerned about that. And no doubt we should be concerned about that. But roads also kill a lot of people and because of car crashes and things like that. And seemingly all those human deaths are, I don't want to say an acceptable price, but we don't stop driving because all these people die. So how much support can there be for fish eggs and roadkill when there's all these people dying from roads? Yeah, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:15 Mike, I've had that exact thought so many times, right, that we have basically come to accept, you know, 40,000 human deaths every year as basically the cost of modernity, you know, and what chance do animals have in that context? So I totally agree with you. And, you know, I think that historically, you know, that's absolutely been the case that we haven't, you know, paid a whole lot of attention to this problem or done much about it. But, you know, that's absolutely changing. And, you know, one of the reasons that it's changing is that we're recognizing that it's just good business to prevent, you know, these animal collisions, right? I mean, nobody wants to hit, you know, a deer or a moose or a black bear or some other

Starting point is 00:34:52 large animal. I mean, those are incredibly dangerous situations, you know, between two and 400 drivers die every year in deer collisions. And, you know, all of those crashes cost society more than $8 billion every year in, you know, all of those crashes cost society more than $8 billion every year and, you know, vehicle repairs and hospital bills and insurance costs and so on. So, you know, these wildlife crossings that I was talking about earlier, these bridges and tunnels, you know, those tend to pay for themselves really, really quickly, you know, by preventing, you know, all of those dangerous crashes. So, you know, there are lots of studies basically showing that, you know, we can save a whole lot of money, you know, by building these structures. And even if, you know, transportation departments, you know, even if they don't care

Starting point is 00:35:33 all that much about wild animals, you know, they definitely care about saving money. And as a result, you know, many, many states are building many more of these crossings. So, you know, I think you're right that historically we haven't paid it a whole lot of attention, but, you know, thankfully that's changing. You know, that's a really important point to make is that, you know, people think about, well, when you think about roadkill, when you think about animals that are killed by cars on the highway, you think, well, that's a shame for the animal, but it also affects people. In fact, I know someone or I knew someone, was an old neighbor of mine who hit a moose in Vermont and she died from a collision.

Starting point is 00:36:16 So there's a human cost to this. It's not just the animal. No, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the average deer collision costs $9,000 and all of those, all of those, again, you know, hospital bills and vehicle repairs and the tow truck, you know, and the loss of that animal to hunters as well, right? The average moose collision costs society more than $40,000, you know, so these are incredibly expensive disasters, you know, that we know how to prevent. And, you know, again, we're spending more money now on those kinds of collision prevention techniques, you know, again, we're spending more money now on those kinds of collision prevention techniques. You know, the 2021 big Federal Infrastructure Act, you know, that had billions of dollars for, you know, highway expansions and, you know, new lanes and repaving projects and bridges and whatnot, also included $350 million for those wildlife crossings. One of the things I think people wonder about, I've always wondered about this.

Starting point is 00:37:06 You see it on the highway. There's one not far from our house here because we have a whole bunch of deer living in our area. And there's a sign on the road that says deer crossing. Well, do the deer know that? Do they know that they're supposed to cross there? Do you have any idea what determines where those signs are? Yeah. It tends to be pretty arbitrary. It's sort of like, there was a deer collision here once,

Starting point is 00:37:32 or we've seen some deer here, or a hunter noticed a bunch of deer tracks. Let's just put up a sign and call it good. Those signs, they really don't work. You know, we just, I mean, we just see so many of them, right, that we're basically desensitized to them, we're, you know, we're habituated to them. There's a sign, you know, not too far from where I live that says, you know, deer crossing next 40 miles. You know, who's gonna pay attention for deer for 40 miles, right? We just, you know, there's, I mean, there's just, there's just so much signage on our, on our roads now that, you know, they, it kind of tends to be, you know, visual pollution or white noise to us.

Starting point is 00:38:10 And, and so those, those signs don't really work too well. And I, you know, I heard one, one wildlife biologist referred to them as, as litter on sticks, which I thought kind of encapsulated it pretty nicely. Do animals accommodate, do they adapt to roads? Do they get it or do they, or do they not? They, yeah, they, they, they definitely tend to get it. I mean, I guess it depends on the species. You know, there, there are some species, you know, like snakes or frogs, for example, that, you know, that are just kind of cross the road, no matter what, right. They're not, um, you know, the most, uh, you know, adaptive animals,

Starting point is 00:38:44 but you know, you have animals like, like coyotes, you know, the most, you know, adaptive animals. But, you know, you have animals like coyotes, you know, hyper intelligent creatures. And, you know, in coyote, in Chicago, you know, there's a population of urban coyotes that, you know, has kind of famously learned to cross streets at red lights. You know, they use the crosswalks like pedestrians and they, you know, they look both ways before crossing the street, which is, you know, more than a lot of human beings do. So there's definitely some learning that happens. And there's also, you know, evolution happening on our roads as well. You know, there's a very famous study about cliff swallows, you know, these birds that kind of live near highways.

Starting point is 00:39:19 And over time, they've actually evolved to have shorter wings. And the reason for that is that when you have short wings, that's better for avoiding, you know, oncoming traffic. You can make, you know, tighter turns and rolls and, you know, get out of the way of all of those 18 wheelers. So, you know, in a matter of just a few decades, you know, those birds have actually evolved through natural selection to change their wing shape and size to avoid traffic. So animals are definitely, you know, accommodating roads or learning to live around them in different ways. I remember years ago, I was in Vermont and something, I don't know what, I only saw it once where there was like a zillion, I guess they were frogs crossing the road, and they were all just, I mean, it was just wall-to-wall splattered frogs. And I thought, what is that?

Starting point is 00:40:14 Is this like a mass suicide, or is this, like, where did they come from? Why are there so many? And no one ever could explain it. And I never saw it again. Yeah, you know, definitely frogs are one of the biggest roadkill victims. I mean, I think that what you probably saw was a migration, you know, on those, especially those warm, wet spring nights, you know, those frogs will kind of migrate en masse, you know, from the forests down to these ponds where they, you know, they breed, they reproduce. And, you know, they'll, I mean, hundreds or thousands of them will move at a time, not just

Starting point is 00:40:51 frogs, but, you know, salamanders and toads and other amphibians as well. And, you know, and the problem is that, you know, when you migrate, you know, you often have to cross a road, right? And we tend to put our roads, you know, where the land is low and flat and it's easy to build. And that tends to be, you know, where water collects. So, you know, often those frogs do have to cross roads. And, you know, those frogs are, I mean, they're so motivated to breed that they're not, you know, they're not stopping to wait for traffic. They're just, you know, they're just hopping across that road no matter what. So, you know, thousands can die as a result.

Starting point is 00:41:21 And actually this kind of the semi-scientific term for that is a massive squishing. So you saw a massive squishing that night, unfortunately, Mike. And it didn't smell very good either. I mean, it was horrible. It was kind of the stench of frog death. You know, in Portland, Oregon, that same situation arises, you know, every, you know, every fall and spring, you know, a big group of frogs goes hopping down to this wetland to reproduce and they have to cross a highway and a few residential roads. It's like, you know, kind of like a real life game of Frogger, you know, where all of these poor frogs are bouncing through traffic. So, you know, happily, there are all of these volunteers who go out on these rainy nights, collecting, collecting those frogs in buckets, and then, you know, moving them across the road by hand, and then, you know, releasing them by the wetland. And, you know, and, and I mean,

Starting point is 00:42:14 every year, you know, they move thousands of those, those animals, which is, you know, incredibly heartwarming and inspiring and has kind of kept that, that population alive. So, you know, if only there had been a bucket brigade in that road in Vermont that night that you saw, that would have been helpful. Is there any sense of, I don't know how you, I don't know, this may be a stupid question, but like, do animals react differently to different kinds of roads, the surface of the road, or whether it curves around around has a lot of, I mean, is there anything about the, or a road is a road and it's just in the way?

Starting point is 00:42:52 Yeah, that's, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a really good question. I mean, I do think that, you know, that, that dirt roads, you know, tend to get more animal use than paved roads. You know, I think that soil is probably a more natural thing to have under your hooves or feet or paws than, you know, than, than asphalt is. I mean, I think that, you know, I think that soil is probably a more natural thing to have under your hooves or feet or paws than, you know, than asphalt is. I mean, I think that, you know, the most the biggest factor is the is the traffic rate. Right. You know, when you get a big, busy highway, you know, animals, animals don't cross that road at all. You know, any road that has more than 10,000 cars per day or so, which is, you know, basically any significant highway, you know, is going to be pretty much a total barrier to animal movement. And, you know, that can be almost worse than

Starting point is 00:43:31 roadkill in some ways. You know, there are some really terrible case studies, you know, in Colorado, where I live, in Wyoming and Idaho and other Western states, you know, where these big herds of deer and elk and antelope and these other migratory animals, you know, have tried to cross these interstate highways and haven't been able to because the traffic is so thick. And they've actually starved as a result because they can't, you know, they can't find food on the other side, especially in winter. And, you know, again, that's almost worse than roadkill, right? You know, a herd of migrating deer, you know, they can handle a few collisions, but, you know, what they can't handle is losing all of that really important winter habitat. And that's when they,

Starting point is 00:44:09 you know, die off, uh, and, and mass. So, you know, that, that traffic, that kind of impenetrable barrier of traffic is that's almost worse than, uh, you know, than, than the roadkill itself. It seems like if you talk to someone long enough, everybody has some weird animal in the road story. You know, I remember once I was driving and there was a big tortoise in the middle of the road, just kind of walking down the center along the center line of the road. And why it wasn't dead yet, I don't know. And I picked it up and moved it off to the side of the road. I hope he's okay.

Starting point is 00:44:44 But this was many years ago. But everybody seems to have some like, story about like that, or some weird thing that happened with an animal on the road. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. You know, I was describing my book to a friend a couple years ago. And he told me that he'd recently hit a squirrel and he was so kind of shocked and distraught. He didn't know what to do. So he called 911, which is like, what are, you know, what are they going to do? But yeah, I mean, I think that, that kind of attests to, you know, how bad we feel when we hit animals, right? I mean, nobody, you know, nobody wants to have that experience, you know, especially when it's, you know, I mean, let alone a squirrel,

Starting point is 00:45:21 I mean, forget about, you know, a bigger creature like, you know, a deer or a moose, you know, nobody wants to be part of roadkill. You know, I've definitely hit animals, you know, I hit an owl a few nights ago, I felt terrible about that. You know, we've all kind of had this, this experience. And, you know, I think that we kind of take it for granted that that's like the natural state of affairs, you know, deer are inevitably going to be killed by cars. So yeah, we've all had the experience of, you know, the animal in the road and we've probably hit some ourselves, but you know, it doesn't have to be that way. That's not a kind of inevitable state of affairs. Well, kind of is, I mean, even, you know, you're the guy and you hit an owl. So, I mean, it seems like everybody's going to,

Starting point is 00:46:03 and that feeling of when you hit something like your friend that called 911, because you feel like you should do something and there is nothing to do because there's no, you know, 8-1-1 to call when an animal gets hit or something. It's either 9-1-1 or you kind of just let it die or drive it to a vet. I mean, it's just a horrible feeling. And I wanted to ask you, is there any sense, does anybody track, like, where roadkill is the worst, the biggest problem? Does somebody rate the states or something? Yeah, you know, from a deer collision standpoint, I'm not sure about all roadkill, but, you know, most years, and this is, you know, actually the car insurance companies, you know, State Farm always puts out a big ranking of states by their deer vehicle collision ratio.

Starting point is 00:46:51 And West Virginia is always kind of at the top of that list. I guess, you know, it's a state with a lot of forests, a lot of white-tailed deer, you know, a lot of winding highways going through those forests. You know, Montana has very high animal collision rates. Pennsylvania, you know, lots of forests in western Pennsylvania. Michigan is a hot spot. You know, it's all of the kind of the states that you might expect based on their, you know, their kind of forests and deer populations. Well, I always enjoy these conversations on topics that everybody is familiar with, but may not really understand the problem. And certainly roads fits the bill perfectly.

Starting point is 00:47:31 We all use roads and they do create problems that are worth understanding. I've been speaking with Ben Goldfarb and the name of his book is Crossings, how road ecology is shaping the future of our planet. There's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on and sharing it, Ben. Appreciate it. There is reason to believe that your shoes, the shoes you're wearing right now, say a lot about your personality.

Starting point is 00:47:59 This is according to a University of Kansas study. People with brand new shoes and well-kept shoes are found to have anxiety attachment issues due to self-consciousness over appearance. Brightly colored shoes supposedly denote an extrovert personality. Tight ankle boots are worn by people with more aggressive personalities. Uncomfortable looking shoes were worn by those with calm demeanors. Practical shoes are the choice of more agreeable people.

Starting point is 00:48:33 And pay close attention the next time you vote. Your shoes may give away your political affiliation. The study found that shabbier and less constructed shoes were more often on liberal feet. And that is something you should know. Hey, make it a point in the next conversation you have to slip in some mention about this podcast and tell your friends to give a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:49:01 Hey, hey, are you ready for some real talk and some fantastic laughs? Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? We're serving up four hilarious shows every week designed to entertain and engage and, you know, possibly enrage you. In Don't Blame Me, we dive deep into listeners' questions, offering advice that's funny, relatable, and real. Whether you're dealing with relationship drama or you just need a friend's Thank you. wrong in our lives. Spoiler alert, we are actually quite literally never wrong. But wait, there's more. Check out See You Next Tuesday, where we reveal the juicy results from our listener polls from But Am I Wrong? And don't miss Fisting Friday, where we catch up, chat about pop culture, TV, and movies. It's the perfect way to kick off your weekend. So if you're looking for a podcast that

Starting point is 00:49:59 feels like a chat with your besties, listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot.

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Something You Should Know - What Lack of Human Connection Does to You & How Roads Impact the World

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