Something You Should Know - What People Really Think Of You & How to Make Your Point So People Get It

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

We have all had the experience of a fly landing on our food and then pondering whether to toss it out or eat it. This episode begins with some guidelines that will help you decide what to do the next time it happens. https://theconversation.com/should-i-throw-away-food-once-a-fly-has-landed-on-it-50895 Your success in life is due in large part to how well you deal with people and how people perceive you. Wouldn’t it be great to know how to make yourself more approachable and interesting to others? Wouldn’t it be great to be able to size up and read people when you meet them? Vanessa Van Edwards has been studying people and their behavior for a long time. She is author of the book Captivate: The Science of Succeeding with People (http://amzn.to/2rfyB3T) and she joins me to discuss some effective strategies to improve your people skills like you won’t believe. Whenever you speak, you should have a point. And not only should you have a point but you must make sure the person listening gets your point. Communications trainer Joel Schwartzberg, author of the book, Get to The Point: Sharpen Your Message and Make Your Words Matter (http://amzn.to/2A5k8aL) explains that too often people don’t know what their point is. And even when they do, they don’t make it clear to the listener. In this discussion Joel reveals how to make your point crystal clear. The Navy Seals have something called the “40% Rule.” It has to do with human potential. When I first read it a while ago, I cut out the article and always remembered it during those times when I needed to get more out of myself. I think you’ll find it useful in your life as well. http://lifehacker.com/cultivate-mental-toughness-with-the-navy-seals-40-perc-1745307249 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Get your first Hims visit FREE at http://forhims.com/something and a 90 day no risk offer! HelixSleep.com/sysk (for up to $200 off and two free pillows!) https://helixsleep.com/sysk Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future.

Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, if a fly lands on your

food, should you still eat it or toss it out? Then, how to deal with people and the strategies that will make you more likable. We tend to like people who tilt their heads. It turns out that when, as humans, we're trying to hear something, usually we tilt our head up to expose our ears. It helps us hear more. And so we think of people who are tilting their heads as better listeners, and those are the kind of people we like to be around. Also, the Navy SEALs have something called the 40% rule. It's worth knowing and remembering. And when you speak, you have to know what your point is and make sure people get your point. You can say that point as many times as you want.

No one comes away from a public speech saying, you know, it's a great speech, but the speaker made his or her point way too often. Nobody says that because the point is the piece of the value. That's the gift you're giving to your audience. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest.

Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show.

There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know, the final episode for 2020.

And we begin this episode with some very practical advice you will use in your life. If not today, one day soon, I'm sure. So here's the situation. You have a plate of food in front of you, or perhaps a drink nearby, and you look away for a moment, and you look back, and there is a big, fat, juicy fly sitting right in the middle of your food, or on the rim of your glass. Now what do you do? You throw it out? After all, flies are notoriously dirty. They carry all kinds of bacteria. But does that mean that if a fly lands on your food, it is ruined for human consumption? Probably not, according to Cameron Webb of the University of Sydney, who lectures on

the subject of food hygiene. A single fly landing on your food is unlikely to trigger illness in anyone. However, if there are multiple flies, oh God, if there are multiple flies or if a fly's been lingering on your food for an unknown amount of time, well, now you've got to be concerned. Flies can carry up to 100 human and animal diseases, as well as a host of parasites,

and they can deposit all of those things on your food. Interestingly, city flies are more hygienic than country flies. Why? Well, in the city, flies are more likely to spend time on other food, while country flies spend more time on dead animals and animal waste. You get the idea. So a single fly, probably no big deal. Lots of flies, you're probably better off eating something else. And that is something you should know. What is it that makes some people more attractive than others? What makes some people more popular than others?

And how do you make yourself more interesting and appealing to other people? Could a smile or a tilt of the head really make a difference in what others think of you? All of this is the science of people and the laws of human behavior. And Vanessa Van Edwards is the professor on this. Vanessa has been studying people and studying what other people have been studying about people. And she's put it in a book called Captivate, The Science of Succeeding with People. Hi, Vanessa. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So, knowing what you know about human behavior and human interaction,

tell me something that will help me understand or connect with people or something that will surprise me about how people communicate and connect. Yeah. So, the first thing that we found very quickly is that you think it's about attractiveness and attractiveness helps certainly, but actually that's not the most important factor when we're trying to judge someone on success or effectiveness or even likability. And what we found was that certain nonverbal cues over and over again tend to increase likability. For example, we tend to like people who tilt their heads. Now, this was something that came up in the research. It also came up in our research that people in a Twitter profile picture or a LinkedIn profile picture who just had a slight little head

tilt, people liked it. And I went, why? Why is this the case? Well, it turns out that when, as humans, we're trying to hear something, like if I say, hey, do you hear that? Usually we tilt our head up to expose our ear, just helps us hear more. And so we think of people who are tilting their heads as more empathetic, as better listeners, as possibly warmer. And those are the kind of people that we like to be around. So that was a really interesting way that like, wow, that's something that's a universal nonverbal that we tend to use that as an indicator in just a profile picture. So just in list form, what are the kinds of things can you understand about people? Things like what approachability, likability,

what are the things, just give me like a short list of things that are available to you if you know this stuff. Yeah, I would say that there's actually three big ones, the three buckets. One is warmth, so likability, friendliness, approachability. The second is competence, so power, intelligence, capability, effectiveness. And the last one is charisma. And actually, Harvard Business researchers found that charisma is kind of a blend of warmth and competence. So those are kind of the three buckets that we really focus on in our courses, in our books, in our labs. So talk about charisma then.

What is it? How do you identify it? And probably more importantly, how do you project it? Yeah. I've been fascinated by charisma ever since I was young because I never had it. So I was, you know, that that real I joke I'm a recovering awkward person. And I was that kid in school who just like watched the popular kids across the cafeteria and was in awe of them. And so I think that when I got into college and I started doing my own research and taking psychology classes, I was really obsessed with this idea of charisma, popularity.

What is it? And so the very first thing I learned was that this Harvard Business School research study found that we're always judging some people on their warmth and competence factors. And you can have just warmth. You can be very friendly, very likable. But if you only have warmth, you're often not taken seriously. People forget your name more often. People might interrupt you in meetings. Now, you could also have just competence. And competence is okay, too.

But if you just have that without the warmth, people see you as powerful, capable, but maybe intimidating or hard to talk to. So that charisma is actually the perfect blend of being both approachable and credible. And we can learn that. Yes, people are born with it. There are people who naturally have very high levels of both. But luckily, there are both nonverbal and verbal signals or social signals of warmth and competence that you can adopt and learn.

And that helps increase that charisma factor. What I'm surprised not to hear in that description is self-confidence, because when I think back in high school of the popular kids, that's something they had that I didn't have. They seemed to carry themselves like they were on top of the world. They knew what they were doing, and they kind of didn't really care what you thought. They had that, I don't know, I guess it's charisma. It's that je ne sais quoi. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it sure looks cool. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you mentioned confidence. So I tend to, and this is a personal choice, and you know, it's interesting

you bring it up. I don't use the word confidence only because I feel like culturally we've abused it. We have over, it's almost like we don't hear it anymore. Like if I were to say, um, I teach a course on confidence, people would be like, like, and people would not be very fed. If I was like, I teach a course on charisma, people would be like, Oh, well that's interesting. Um, now charisma and confidence are very close. And I would actually say that the bridge between the two is comfort. So think about it this way. If you are very competent, so competence is not faking it. Competence is actually doing things, talking about things, acting in a way that you are, you feel powerful and capable and effective. That brings a certain level of comfort. So for example, I am not charismatic in a math

class. I never will be. I'm not competent in that subject. I can barely do tips at the end of a dinner. However, I'm a little bit more charismatic in, say, a science class or an English class, because those are my rock star subjects. So you cannot always have charisma. It can be learned, but there's a very fine line between faking it and faking competence, which usually doesn't work, and finding the topics and the things that you actually feel competent about, and then dialing the charisma up on that level. So I think that comfort brings confidence, if that makes sense. Well, and I think that's a really important point, that all of this is somewhat seemingly situational, that like you say, you can feel one way in one room and go to the next room

with other people and feel completely different. Yeah, that's, I think, the biggest problem that we face with teaching people skills or soft skills. My career is teaching soft skills, and I love soft skills. I think you can teach soft skills like hard skills. And the biggest problem that I face is that people have been taught, once you learn it, it's kind of like you're done. You learn how to be charismatic, and you're charismatic forever. And that just, that just isn't the case. It's also impossible to be highly charismatic or even, we can even use a different word, highly influential, highly impactful, even trying to be an extrovert if

you're not one in situations that make you highly uncomfortable. And so the one thing that I teach is the idea of breaking down context into three different categories, survive, neutral, and thrive. Because for example, let's say that someone really, really hates going to loud bars. That's just like, oh, it's out of their comfort zone. It's almost impossible for them to be very charismatic in that zone. So I would say to them, do not start there. Don't even go there second. Let's go to some of the neutral areas, some of the areas you're already pretty comfortable in, and let's dial up in those areas. So not all contexts are created equal. Since you know all this stuff, do you, when you meet somebody, do you go through like a checklist and size them up? And if so, what is that checklist?

You know, I wish I could say no, but I think the answer is yes. And this is only because it does not come naturally to me. Speed reading people is a skill that I have developed out of survival. I had a childhood where I had a lot of people who, unfortunately, adults who lied to me, and I really had to learn to get good at reading people to protect myself. And so I developed a sort of system and this has taken years to develop. That's what I actually teach in the book for speed reading people. And so what I'm checking off is three different things. And you'll notice I like the rule of three. Yeah, apparently so. Helps me remember. The first one is there are five personality traits. So that's the first thing I'm trying to figure out. It's the outer layer of what I call their matrix.

I think everyone has three basic layers. And so the outer layer is their personality. So I try to figure out their five personality traits. And I literally have matrices for every person in my life. Almost all my students have matrices for all the people in their life. The second layer is their appreciation language or their love language based on Dr. Gary Chapman's research, the five love languages. And the middle inner layer is their primary resource, which is research based on Foa and his associates on what is someone's primary need. So there's six resources,

and I'm trying to find out what is their primary resource. And when you say their primary need, what might those be? Like, for example? Yeah. So, for example, FOA argues this is kind of like the updated version of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, if you're familiar with that. This is kind of the newer version of that. It's basically that we all need all six resource categories, but we tend to favor one that we have trouble with. It could be one that we didn't get a lot of as a child. It could be one that just fulfills us the most. And so for example, one of them is information. So these are people who are like know-it-alls, people who are always Googling

things, people who always want to be in the know. They tend to be gossipers sometimes. That would be one category. So for them, giving them information is much more valuable than say, giving them status. So another one would be status. So status is praise, responsibility, larger titles. So at work with colleagues, this is really helpful because if you are working with someone, you know that their value resource is status. For them, praise and public praise and public responsibility and a brand new shiny title, that is far more of an incentive than goods like a gift or a gift card. So looking at all the different resources helps you appeal to people, understand their motivations.

It's greatly changed my relationships, both professionally and socially. Vanessa Van Edwards is my guest today on Something You Should Know, and she is the author of the book Captivate, The Science of Succeeding with People. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives.

So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today.

Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Vanessa, tell me how, because I would love to know this, how to work a room. When you walk into a room full of people, what is the best way to become part of that and not feel like you should just hang out by the wall and watch the clock?

Yeah, so we did a really fun study on networking where we went to networking events all over Portland, Oregon. I'm in Portland, Oregon. And we filmed, we had a camera in each corner of the room. We filmed networkers and we followed them and we tracked them. We also gave them pre-surveys and post surveys. We were looking for super connectors. We were looking for the people who not only enjoyed themselves the most, because that's important. We wanted people who liked it, but also who got the most contacts, business cards, and had the most robust and active LinkedIn networks. And we found that there was very specific patterns that those super connectors worked a room very specifically. First thing is that they avoided the very first entrance area. In my book, I call this the start zone, they went right through that. The worst networkers tended to hover in the start zone. The start zone is like right as you enter a

room, right near the coat check, hovering kind of right at the entrance. That seemed to be a rookie mistake and super connectors blasted right through it. They went right for, and I call this a sweet spot, they went right for the first sweet spot, which is right as people exit the bar. So it seems to be that first of all, waiting in line for the bar is a great way to start up conversation with someone because you're sitting next to each other and you can say, Hey, what are you getting to drink? And then right as people exit the bar, they're pretty desperate for someone to talk to. And so, um, standing in that place, you kind of become a social savior. So they would say, hey, welcome to the event. What did you get?

And it was the easiest kind of startup conversation as opposed to like trying to approach someone randomly across the room. And they just racked in those business cards and clearly had the best time. Now, that could be because they were standing at the bar. You know, that could have been why they had such a good time. But we saw this over and over again. So I always say avoid the start zone. Avoid the side zone. So I always say avoid the start zone. Avoid the side zone.

So bathrooms, hovering around the food. You would think hovering around the food is a good idea. What we found was it produced high-quantity, low-quality conversations. Why? When people have their food, they're happy to chit-chat with you while they're getting their food. When they get their food, they want to eat. So they often then will say, okay, great talking to you. I'm going to go sit

down and eat this. And they're also only half with you because half their brain is eating. So that's another rookie mistake is the side zone. That's really interesting because I think most people approach a room and start looking, well, I don't know what they look. I don't know what I look at. I feel like I go into a room of people totally blind. Like I'm hoping to find something, but I don't even know what I'm hoping to find. Oh, you know, that's actually, that's actually the problem. So when we talk about confidence or we don't talk about confidence, we don't say that word, but actually, um, I, one of the things I say in my courses over and over again is, um, this is about being purposeful, not confident. So if you walk into a room and you don't know what to doful, not confident. So if you walk into

a room and you don't know what to do, like you have no plan because you walk into a room and you're like, I guess I'll get a drink. I guess I'll go to the bathroom. Oh, that person looks kind of interesting. That lack of purpose is it's very hard to be confident. So actually I think purpose, like knowing I'm checking in, I'm turning my coat. I'm not standing in the start zone. I'm getting my food. I'm getting my drink, but I'm not standing in the food zone. And then I'm checking in, I'm turning in my coat, I'm not standing in the start zone, I'm getting my food, I'm getting my drink, but I'm not standing in the food zone. And then I'm going to go plant myself once I'm ready at that spot. It gives you a kind of confidence because you are so purposeful with what you are doing. Can people tell, do you think that if you walk into a room and you feel kind of lonely and desperate and you don't know what to do. Can people consciously or unconsciously sense that

and react to that? And if so, how? I think yes. And the reason why I kind of couch that without a definitive answer is because we really don't know that je ne sais quoi exactly. Like sometimes you hear women say, or men or women say, I can smell the desperation on them. And, you know, I think there's some truth to that. I don't know how, I don't know why, or, you know, they, they have also found that our emotions are contagious. And my Ted talk, that was my whole theme was that we're very, very contagious, but we don't know exactly how or why. So I say, I think so, but I don't know where that comes from. I don't know if that's from facial expressions. I don't know if it's from, if it's from pheromones. I don't know if it's from body language cues, but I think that somehow we do know. We are more like herds than we like to believe. I think that we're individuals alone in the storm. I think a lot of

the time we engage in a lot of herd behavior subconsciously we don't realize. Once people are in that room though, and they make that connection and start to talk, a lot of people don't know what to say. They hate small talk. They don't know how to make small talk and they don't know what to talk about. Yeah, I think, so I love using context cues. I think that that's the easiest way to come up with things, come up with something to say. Context cues are the best because you're always in a context of some kind. You know, you're never without one. And so this is using cues in your environment to easily bridge conversation. So it could be, you know, hey, what'd you get at the bar? What are you drinking? That drink looks interesting. It could be, oh, did you try those amazing wings?

Oh, they were so much better than I thought. It could be, hey, have you been to this gorgeous restaurant before? Could be, hey, how do you know the host? What brings you here? There's always context and context is always safe because you already share it. With a stranger, you are already sharing the context. And so to bring it up, to talk about it, it is easy because it's right in front of you. And also it feels like a safe topic. So it's a really easy bridge. Is there a way to tell when you look at someone, whether, and I guess this is somewhat subjective, but how approachable they are? And is there a way to project that you're approachable? And if so, what a long question this is. And if so, is there a difference whether it's romantic

or not? Yes, the answer is yes. It's a long answer, but I would say that what you should focus on first is being purposeful. We like people who know what they're doing. We like to talk to people who know what they're doing. We like to talk to people who like where they are. So everything we've talked about so far actually helps you with that approachability. One, being in context that you thrive in, so places you're already comfortable. Two, talking about topics or doing things where you feel competent. Three, being purposeful with your actions, knowing where you are and who you're trying to talk to.

And then having really, really easy bridge topics at the ready that we pick up on. We want easy, right? In social interactions, we're searching the room for someone who's going to be fun, who's going to be a really good conversation. So if you have those four things going, that's the right start. Anything we haven't talked about that you think is really important that people understand about this that would really help? I always like to end on the idea that I don't think you have to fake it till you make it. I know that's a really popular thing right now that people talk about. And I think that faking it till you make it is okay. But I'd much rather you find things you're already good at and dial that up, as opposed to trying

things you're not so good at and trying to fake it. So I would say, do what you're really good at, even if it seems like it's really small, and try to just maximize that as much as possible. But when you have to go to places where you're not comfortable, you don't feel like you belong, what do you do then? Sometimes you're forced into situations that are out of your comfort zone. Again, I would try to find the things that work for you. So if you have to go to a place that you really don't like, eliminate as much faking it as you can. So like finding topics that you really like and having those at the ready to go.

Having stories that you love to share ready to go, making sure that you get there early, because it'll be a little bit quieter or get there late. So it'll be a little bit easier. I'm trying to minimize all the opportunities in that kind of forced opportunity that will make you fake it. Well, even though you don't like using the word confidence, I think knowing this stuff, knowing what you just said, knowing what's in your book, can give people confidence, the ability or the willingness to go out and interact and feel more like they know what they're doing. Vanessa Van Edwards has been my guest. The book is called Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People. There is a link to it in the show notes.

Thanks, Vanessa. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you so much for giving me the space and the time. And thanks everyone for listening. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed,

but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. How many times have you listened to a person speak, either one-on-one in a conversation, or maybe that person is speaking to a group, and when it's all over, you ask yourself,

what was the point of that? What was this person's point? The fact is that for all of us, if we're not careful, we can talk and talk and talk and never make a point, or never make our point clear enough that people get it. And when you think about it, what's the point of talking if you don't make your point? Joel Schwartzberg is a public speaking and communications trainer and author of the to discuss how to make sure people get your point something that eludes an awful lot of us who speak hi Joel welcome thank you Mike it's a pleasure to be here so I love this

topic because doing this program I'm constantly talking and interviewing people and and sometimes I get someone who really doesn't get to their point, or they have trouble getting to their point, and that's when I really have to go to work and help them try to make their point. And so I love this idea of helping people understand what their point is and get to their point and all. But why is this interesting to you? Well, this topic is very important for me because I've been training public speakers for over 10 years. And one thing I've noticed is that even as I've made them stronger speakers with better eye contact and better volume and they stand right and gesture right, when I ask them what their point is, often they come back to me with something that's not a point. And the reason people ramble,

as you mentioned, or stumble over what they're trying to say is they don't know what their point is. And they often confuse their point for a topic, a theme, a subject, sometimes a catchphrase. They think that's their point, but actually that's not their point. A point is something that you can argue, make a case for, that you can prove. It's a proposition you're trying to make so that your audience can digest it and then perform an action as a result. And you can't do that if you only have a title. And is it your sense that if you don't have a point, you probably shouldn't be speaking in the first place? Right. You're literally pointless. And who wants to be pointless? But if you've ever been a, what I like to say is a captive audience or a hostage audience for a speaker who goes on and on and on, that person usually doesn't have a point.

And I counsel people not to be nervous when they're public speaking in many ways. But if you don't have a point, the truth is you should be nervous because you don't know what you're trying to convey to your audience. And the beauty of having a point is it's something you can always go back to. Even if you go off track or ramble, you leave the reservation, you can always say, all right, we've talked about a number of things, but here's my point. Or here's the thing. I believe that X, Y, Z. Because at the end of the day, if you successfully convey your point, you succeed. If you do not, you fail.

That's the ballgame. So you have to know what your point is. Don't you say that in order to identify your point, you can put the words, I believe that, in front of it? Right. So take what you think is your point and simply put the words, I believe that, in front of it. If you do not have at that point a complete sentence, a grammatically correct sentence, then you sort of need to reformulate. So, for example, you can't say, I believe that public speaking, or I believe that politics, or I believe that social media, because those aren't complete thoughts. You need to go back and come up with something, for example, that would say, I believe that through social media, we're going to be able to reach millennials, or I believe that

our political system is in a woeful state of disrepair. Now you're making an argument that has a feasible counterpoint, and it's something you could actually provide reasoning or logic or evidence for to make a case. And at the end of the day, your audience is going to take something of value from it. Can I have more than one point? You can have more than one point, but it's important that they be segregated. If you try to jam too many points into one sentence, then it has the effect of what I call split ends. Then you have ideas competing with each other. For example, if you say this approach is going to be very successful, productive, effective, and efficient, you think you're doing yourself a favor by adding different ideas to that

same point, but actually you're hurting your point because now you're asking your audience to figure out which one of those is most important, but you're also diluting the impact of each of those points because they're fighting each other. And more often than not, the audience will take no point from that because they have four things. Imagine if it was 12 things, then you know they wouldn't know what to take away from. So I generally counsel people to come up with one big idea. This approach will make us more efficient. So then what do you fill up the rest of the time with? Evidence? Right, evidence. Then you develop that point. But at the end of the day, the audience is not going to leave so much with your tactics, with your examples, with your illustrations. Audiences generally remember one or two or at most three things. So what's the big idea you want to leave them with?

That's what you have to identify. So even though you're making the case, you're using evidence, using case studies, at the end of the day, you want them to leave with this one thought. So when I make my point, do I first make my point and then support the evidence, or do I give you the evidence and then say, and therefore, and here's my point, do I first make my point and then support the evidence, or do I give you the evidence and then say, and therefore, and here's my point? There are no spoilers in public speaking, only in films. So you want to say that point as much as possible. But let's look at what parts of a speech an audience most remembers. The first part and the last part, and particularly the last part. And something I say all the time is, you can say that point as many times as you want.

No one comes away from a public speech saying, you know, it's a great speech, but the speaker made his or her point way too often. Nobody says that because the point is the piece of the value. That's the gift you're giving to your audience. So to answer your question, Mike, I would always lead with it. Something I always counsel my speakers is to come right down and say who they are, what their point is, and why that point is relevant. Now, that doesn't mean you can't begin with a joke or a story or something you heard on the radio this morning or something silly your kid did. That's an icebreaker. But know that that is not part of your job in delivering the point. That's delaying your point, but it's sort of

waking your audience up. So you're not really doing your job until you're saying explicitly that point. And whatever the strongest and highest value version of it is, that's when you're doing your number one job. That's when you're making the delivery of that point. Well, I like what you said that, you know, no one ever complains that he made his point too much, because we often walk away going, what the hell, what was that about? Right, what was the point? Sometimes we bury the point. You know, like storytelling is a big deal nowadays in public speaking. Tell a story, tell a story. The more personal, the better. But what we fail to mention and fail to reinforce is that the story is a vehicle through which a point travels.

So you haven't, again, done your job if you begin the story and end the story. Your job doesn't begin until you say, this story illustrates how, X, Y, Z. This story is a reflection of why I believe that, X, Y, Z. That is the point at which you're doing your job, not at the point during which you're merely sharing the story. But shouldn't sometimes that be self-evident, that the purpose of this story was to, you know, if the story's well told, the point is made? Well, hopefully the point is made. But think of the burden. So when you tell a story and you expect that point to be self-evident, you're putting the burden of understanding, digesting, and making use of that point on your audience. It's sort of like a play. Yeah, a play should be nuanced in such a way that you sort of get the point. But in a public speech, your goal is not to entertain, not to intrigue.

At the end of the day, it's to make sure that point is delivered. So my question to my clients is often, why would you tell that story or leave it to chance that they've received your point? And we know this is important because there's only one way to know if you've been successful in a public speech. And that is to go to someone in the audience and say, what do you think my point was? Or my point was this, did you effectively receive it? So the question is, how are you going to guarantee that result? The way you guarantee it is by being very explicit about it. This is my point.

This is what I believe. If there's one thought you're going to leave with today, it should be this, X, Y, Z. Make it explicit. We don't always make it explicit. Sometimes we hide it, we save it, or we want to propose it in an interesting way. But in doing so, we avoid the most explicit, direct, and easily accepted way. So, Joel, you often hear people who talk about making presentations and the right way to communicate that the way to do it is tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. Is that kind of what you're saying here? That framework is good.

I just don't like those things to get in the way of the number one job, which is much simpler, which is really just this, deliver your point. So when you preview something, you get into something, you tell them what you just said, that's fine, but I rather go right to the heart of the matter. What is your point? Did you make it strong? Did you crowd too many ideas in it? Did you use adjectives?

Adjectives is a word like very good or fantastic or great. That's not really saying anything. And then did you end with that point? So there are lots of other constructions and parts and elements of a great speech. But if you don't know your point and are not successfully conveying your specific point, then all that stuff doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day, you don't want to come away, someone to come away from your speech thinking, oh, that speaker, she was hysterical, or she is so knowledgeable, or so charismatic, so memorable. Because that's not your goal, to make you memorable. Your goal is not unlike a messenger, you know, bicycle messenger. Your goal is to take this thing, which is your point, and to convey that to the audience so they can leave with it and take value from it. Do you think this translates into one-on-one communication as well?

I think it translates into all communication, because the question is, when do you ever need to make a point? And that's constantly. So that can be an email, that can be in a review of your direct reports. That can be certainly in a job interview. It could be in a classic speech setting. It could be to your mother-in-law. In all these cases, there's a point making a point. But in fact, ideally, that person is making a point. That person is expressing to the audience why the speaker's point is relevant to that audience, what he hopes or she hopes they will take away from or learn from that presentation. So there's always a point to be made if we sit down and really think about it and apply that I believe test as the first step. You know what you said about nobody ever accuses somebody of making their point too often in a speech?

That's probably true in a speech, but I've been in conversations with people where, okay, I get it. You know, I get it. Stop. Please, stop. You've made your point. And that's actually a critical issue. And here's the reason, not just because it's annoying, but because when you've made your point and you're still talking, everything you say after it is going to dilute your point. Because remember, audiences remember the last thing you say. So you want to make the delivery of your point close to the very last thing you convey to someone else. And then you need to, as you would agree, Mike, would stop there, because you're only hurting yourself by continually pointing it out. If someone is saying the same

thing over and over and over again, there's probably some insecurity that that person should address either with a public speaking coach or a psychological professional. But you said before that you should deliver your point at the beginning, too. So are you saying do it both at the beginning and at the end? Yes, do it at the beginning and at the end. Generally, I don't worry about people saying it too often. If someone is saying it 18 times in a two-minute space, that can get annoying. But I don't find that to be the case too often. And what I'm more worried about, I'm not worried about people saying their point too many times.

I'm worried about people saying their point and then still talking about other things or meandering because they said, oh, and don't forget about this and don't forget about this, because those things compete against the point. So to answer your question, the best place is to put your point certainly at the beginning, certainly at the end, and throughout, it's helpful to say, this piece of evidence, as a reminder, shows why I believe that, or illustrates my proposition that this is true. It almost sounds like when you strip it down to that, that that's a pretty dull speech. What makes an interesting speech is that it has a point, it has a piece of value. And your job is to get that value to an audience. You know, sometimes people say, well, it's adult speech.

Oh, I should start with a joke. Or I should tell this story. Or I should set my hair on fire. You know, those things will certainly make you more interesting, but it won't help propel your point. When I look at audiences, you know, and the crucial value is, is an audience going to be bored or interested? And if you want them to be interested, you know, the last thing you do is want them to be bored.

They could disagree, but at least they would still be engaged. So the thing you want to do to make sure they're interested is to have a strong and valuable point. And as long as you do and are making that argument, you should always be perceived as relevant because that's the piece of value. Everything else is icing or supporting that point. So when I am bored by speeches and when I am unengaged, it's almost always because they don't know what their point is or they haven't sharpened it to something of true value to me and they needed to reimagine it to dig a little deeper.

It seems, though, that your way would make every speech about three minutes long, that you don't want to crowd it with a bunch of other stuff that gets in the way of the point. So you strip that all away, and you make your point, and you're done. One of the things that we use in the test is to make sure it's not a truism, or something too short. So say someone wanted to say social media is great, or to be a great public speaker, you need confidence. Well, those things, you need to make sure you can develop it so that you're giving a speech that meets the 10 minutes or the 15 minutes or the seven minutes. So yeah, I can only talk for 30 seconds about why social media is great,

but I could talk a lot more on the subject of how social media affects particular audiences or how different states have different legislative priorities that feed up into a larger social movement. So often if you feel like you have a point, but it's going to be a very short presentation, ask yourself why. Well, because it will trigger all these other things. And the answer to that question, why, will often lead to a larger and more developed and more sophisticated speech. So the reason we sometimes go short is because we haven't developed our point further along enough to enable us to give good examples or good case studies. There are also speakers, and I'm sure everybody's

heard them, who do make their point. They make their point quite clearly, but the speech is dull as dirt, because there's more to giving a good speech than just making your point. Absolutely, absolutely. But my case, the case I'm trying to make is you could be the most charismatic presenter in the world, but if you don't have a point, you're not doing your job. Your job is not to make people love you. Your point is to deliver that valuable idea. Now, presentation is very, very important, and it's part of my workshop training, and it's part of the book. You want to come across with authority. You want to come across with confidence.

How is that conveyed? That's conveyed with volume. That's conveyed through ending with periods. That's conveyed through gestures that are not constant, so that they mean something to emphasize a word. But the two things I always want people to leave with in my workshops in terms of presentation, one is everybody can increase their volume, just about everybody. And when you increase your volume, that's not just about audibility, people being able to hear you, but volume alone conveys all those things you were talking about, authority, credibility, confidence. Sometimes if we ask someone, well, you need to be more confident. Well, how do I do that? But if you ask someone to just be louder, that will convey confidence. And the other part is

pausing. If you embrace pausing, especially as a replacement for things like ah and um, and so you're actually doing yourself a great favor because audiences become really engaged by that pausing. But also pausing slows you down and allows you to create thoughts with great precision because you're putting your mind way ahead of your mouth. Often our mouths are way ahead of our minds so that we're speaking and we're not giving ourselves time to formulate those thoughts. So we need to slow it down, inject pauses so we can speak with precision. And all those things will lead to confidence. Yes, we want speakers who are confident, we want speakers who are authoritative,

but certainly, and I would even suggest more important than any of that, speakers who have points and convey them with strength. Well, I think you made your point, and you're right. I think it's so common for people to, when they talk, to get so concerned and distracted by all the other things that they fail to make the point. And if you don't make your point, what's the point? Joel Schwartzberg has been my guest. He is a communications trainer and author of the book, Get to the Point, Sharpen Your Message and Make Your Words Matter. You'll find a link to his book on Amazon in the show notes for this episode.

Thank you, Joel. Thank you, Mike. I look forward to hearing it. There's something I read a long time ago. In fact, when I read it, I even clipped out the article. And I'm not much of an article clipper-outer kind of person.

But I thought this was really interesting and it has to do with the Navy SEALs. Now, if the Navy SEALs are known for anything, they're known for their mental toughness. And one way they access their mental toughness is with the 40% rule. The 40% rule states that when you think you're done, whatever it is, exercising, working, studying,

you're really only 40% done. You can do more. In fact, you can do 60% more. We develop these mental blocks and patterns over the years that keep us in our comfort zone, but the fact is, you can run farther, you can learn more, you can resist your vices longer. We instinctively know this because when it really counts, somehow we're able to do it. We tap into that reserve, whatever it is, and we get it done. People do it running marathons or pulling all-nighters for the big test. When it counts, people do it.

The trick is to do it more often, not just in those big moments. And it seems that the more you do it, the more resilient you become and the better at it you become. Now, I'm not always sure I have 60% more, but I think most of us will agree that even when you think you're done, there's still a little something left. So the next time you're in that situation, when you think you're all drained, you probably have a little more inside you. And that is something you should know. This is our final episode for the year 2020. And like most of you, I am also glad to say goodbye to 2020 and have high hopes for a better year for you and me and everyone else in 2021. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

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