Something You Should Know - What to Do When People Say No & Why You Need Friends and Where to Find Them

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Starting point is 00:00:44 It's like you're going down a road and a tree falls across the road. Now that tree is a no. So you say, hmm, what are all the possible ways I could either get around that no, over that no, under that no, or turn the no around and make it work for me? Plus, the reality of going to live concerts. It's really not as much fun as we think it is. And why you need more friends and how to get them. And you probably do need more friends.

Starting point is 00:01:13 One in four Americans have zero friends to confide in, and this number has tripled in the last 30 years. One in three Americans above the age of 65, one in two above the age of 85 is socially isolated and completely alone. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Starting point is 00:01:51 Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly

Starting point is 00:02:19 about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life.

Starting point is 00:02:43 Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. And such a good thing you tuned in today because we're going to start with the secrets to happiness. For his book, The Five Secrets You Must Know Before You Die, author John Izzo surveyed 250 truly happy people to find out what makes them so happy. And here's what they said.

Starting point is 00:03:09 First, get outside yourself. Obsessive focus on oneself is one of the greatest sources of unhappiness. You can't be happy wallowing in your own problems. So go focus on something else or someone else. Stop judging your life. Life is not a contest. It's something to be enjoyed. So be in a place of gratitude and be thankful for all the things you do have

Starting point is 00:03:35 and not worry about the things you don't have. Have no regrets. It's better to take a risk and fail than to never try and always wonder what if. And give more than you take. Do those things and you'll be a lot happier. And that is something you should know. You know what stops people from finding success and getting what they want? Think about it.

Starting point is 00:04:02 What stops you from getting what they want? Think about it. What stops you from getting what you want? The answer usually boils down to because someone says no. For some people, hearing no means no. It's upsetting, demoralizing, confidence crushing. It's no. But maybe no doesn't always have to mean no. B.J. Gallagher is a speaker and prolific author with several books to her name. One of them is called Yes Lives in the Land of No, and she's here to talk about what to do with all those no's that will inevitably come your way in life. Hi, B.J., welcome. So, you write about a lot of different topics. What attracted you to this? I think

Starting point is 00:04:46 trying to understand what makes human beings tick is probably the most fascinating subject, and it seems just endless. And so what attracted me to this particular topic was, why are some people more successful than others? And what is it that happens when people hear the word no? Why is it that some people are able to overcome that and keep going, and others go, that's it, I give up? So why is that? Why is it that some people would take no as no and other people don't? Is it something that it's just part of who we are, or is it a learned behavior or what? I think it's some of both, but an awful lot of it is learned. It has to do with childhood conditioning and, you know, how your behavior was corrected

Starting point is 00:05:36 and shaped and molded by the people who took care of you. But that's the good news, because it's learned means we can unlearn it and we can relearn some new habits that'll help make us more successful. So it's really about how you process that word. When someone says no, what do you do with it? Exactly. And what people, well, there's two kinds of people. Some people hear, when they hear no, what they hear is, you're an idiot.

Starting point is 00:06:02 You're a failure. Why did you bring me this idea, who do you think you are, if you need to have an opinion, I'll give it to you. Other people hear just the opposite. When they hear no, what they hear is, maybe later, I'm busy now, don't bother me, get me some more information. that they hear a delay but they don't hear a final answer. Well isn't that interesting that two people can hear the same person say no

Starting point is 00:06:33 and hear two different things? Well first of all not all no's are created equal and we learn this a lot of it comes from childhood we learn this as children because children are very good at pushing boundaries. And how those boundaries are reinforced makes a difference in how they

Starting point is 00:06:53 deal with boundaries later on. And it may also be that some of it is innate, that some children are more sensitive, feel less confident. I mean, we know that optimism and pessimism are behavior traits or sort of attributes that people were born with a certain disposition but we can modify that disposition so some people are naturally pessimists

Starting point is 00:07:18 and some people are naturally optimists but that doesn't mean you can't shape that and turn it around so a pessimist, when he or she hears no, is going to go, oh, well, see, I knew. It's hopeless. No point in even trying. An optimist will say, hmm, well, I wonder why not. Maybe if I push a little bit, I can get them to change their mind. And sometimes even kids within the same family. I'm an optimist. My brother's a pessimist. And he hears no,

Starting point is 00:07:45 he gives up. I hear no, and I think, hmm, let me get more creative. So how does somebody who hears no the way your brother hears no move from that to hearing no the way you hear no as an optimist? First of all, they have to believe that it's possible. So to turn no's into yeses, first of all, it's an inside job. You have to really, and it helps to see it in other people. Now, why is it that that person doesn't take no for an answer and they're successful? I take no for an answer and I'm not successful. What can I learn from them? So it helps to see somebody else doing it. And then you go, well, if they can do it, then maybe I can learn to do it. So you have to start

Starting point is 00:08:32 to believe that it's possible and seeing other people do it helps you know that it's possible. You don't have to just take it on faith. You can actually see it in other people. That's the very first step. From then on, it's simply learning tools and techniques, developing thicker skin, becoming more of a long-distance runner rather than a sprinter in life. Just know that the yes is out there, but it may take you a long time to get to it. So what are some of those tools and techniques? Well, one of my favorites, I just have a simple word that I use, and that word is next. So when I get a rejection, like in the book publishing business, I send off book proposals all the time. I get a lot of rejection.

Starting point is 00:09:18 In the beginning, when I got rejection, I would cry, get depressed, think nobody wants it. What I've learned to do, what I've taught myself to do, is instead of cry, get depressed, and complain, I simply say, oh, okay, next. What that means is I'm one no closer to the yes that I'm seeking. So basically, I reframed the situation. Yeah, and I know a lot of salespeople think that way, or learn to think that way, that every no is one no closer to yes. But just for some reason, it's easier for some people than others to think that way. Part of it, I think, also, Mike, is being creative. It's like you're going down a road and a tree falls

Starting point is 00:10:06 across the road. Now that tree is a no. You're not going to drive past the tree. So you say, well, I really want to get where I'm going. So what are my options? One option is I go around the tree. One option is I get some boards and I try to make a ramp up over the tree. Another is, oh, a guy with a tow truck comes along and I get him to tow the tree out of the way. Or I just happen to have a chainsaw in the trunk of my car, so I get it out, chop it up, and not only do I get where I'm going, I load the wood in the back of my truck, and I sell it, I make some money off the no. So a lot of it is practicing divergent thinking. Seeing a no and saying, what are all the possible ways I can either get around that no, over that

Starting point is 00:11:00 no, under that no, or turn the no around and make it work for me. It sure makes you wonder why there are so many no's in the world. It's no this, no that. Everything is no. It's safer and easier for people to say no. If you say no, it means you don't have to change. You don't have to do anything differently. You don't have to take a risk. Anytime, and to say yes means to roll up your sleeves and dig your hands into life

Starting point is 00:11:29 when it's always safer to say no, even when no means death. That there's a part of all of us that wants to, even the most optimistic person, sometimes says no because I'm too tired or I don't want to change or it's too risky and I don't want to fail or I don't want to change or it's too risky and I don't want to fail. I don't want to look stupid. Or what does everybody else think? Well, if they say yes, then I'll say yes. But I don't want to be the first one to say yes because I might be wrong. I'm talking with BJ Gallagher. She's the author of the book Yes Lives in the Land of No. Hi, this is Rob Benedict.

Starting point is 00:12:06 And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors,

Starting point is 00:12:32 and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left-field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:13:14 Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior

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Starting point is 00:14:10 or wherever you get your podcasts. So, BJ, sometimes you'll hear a no, though. Like, you'll have a good idea and try to convince somebody you have a good idea, and they'll say no, because maybe it isn't a good idea. And to keep banging your head against the wall trying to sell this good idea may be a big waste of time. That's a really good point you raise there, Mike. And that's a tough question.

Starting point is 00:14:35 When is no final? And when, as I said, not all no's are created equal. And sometimes no is the right answer. Sometimes no can keep you from doing something stupid or something really dangerous. But there's no hard and fast rules to know when that is. You just have to sort of learn by experience which no's are worth doing battle with and which no's aren't. It has to do with how much you believe in what you're after, what your passion is, what your tolerance for pain is. I mean, sometimes you just run out of steam and say, oh, I give up. And so I wish I had a very clear, simple guideline to give you on that, but I don't.

Starting point is 00:15:25 Sometimes no is the right answer. So we just learn a lot, like we learn most of life, from trial and error. You just try again and try again and try again. And then after a while, you learn which no's to challenge and which one's to let go. You know, if I send a book proposal out and 20 publishers reject it, I say, well, okay, there's another 30 publishers out there. I think I'll keep trying. Or I might say, you know, maybe it's not such a good book proposal after all. Maybe I'll just go write something else instead. But it depends. It really depends on how passionate I am about

Starting point is 00:16:04 the idea that the classic story there is the guys who wrote Chicken Soup for the Soul got rejected by 53 publishers. Just about every publisher there was. Their literary agent fired them and said, I'm sorry, I can't sell this book called Chicken Soup for the Soul. Nobody wants to read anthologies. I'm done. And they found one little tiny publisher in Florida who said, okay, we've been wanting to try something different. We'll try your little anthology. And now a hundred million books later, the rest is history. One of my favorite quotes is by Thomas Edison. He says, I have not failed. I've simply found 10,000 ways that didn't work. And that's a great way to be able to look at it because,

Starting point is 00:16:53 you know, some people would stop at 5,000 or 100 or 1. I mean, it's tough to imagine working on something and trying it 10,000 different ways and still keep trying. And it's a very personal decision. Only you can decide how many no's you're willing to go through to get your yes. How important is that yes? And the yes may be different. It may be the yes you're looking for in a job promotion is going to be very different than the yes you're looking for in the right house to buy, or the right person to marry, or whether or not to have a third child. I mean, you know, it's not all yeses are created equal either. Now, I know you say that dealing with the topic of no is very important at work and in dealing with your boss.

Starting point is 00:17:51 Why so? Bosses are the people who probably say no more often than anyone else. They have people who work for them. They have people who want something. They want a raise. They want attention. They want time. They have people who want something. They want a raise. They want attention. They want time. They want approval on a project.

Starting point is 00:18:10 You know, bosses have a lot of people making demands on them, and therefore they say no a lot more than the rest of us do. They're just in a position to say no more than the rest of us. The first thing to think about if your boss is the person who says no to you most often is where is the no coming from? Because that boss's no may be driven by fear, like don't make me look bad. I don't want to take a risk. It may be driven simply by busyness. I've got too much on my plate already. I can't want to take a risk. It may be driven simply by busyness.

Starting point is 00:18:45 I've got too much on my plate already. I can't handle another project. It may be driven by laziness. I don't want to work hard. So the more I know about my boss, the more I can manage the boss and manage my way around those no's. For instance, if my boss is driven by fear, then the no's I get are also going to be driven by fear. So my job is to reassure the boss that doing what I'm asking is actually going to be less risky than doing nothing. If the boss's no is driven by this might make me look bad, then my challenge is to point out how saying yes will make the boss look good and saying no might make them look bad.

Starting point is 00:19:35 So I really have to understand what's behind the no before I can turn that no around with my boss. And do you think that's easy for people to figure out? I think it is. The key to bosses is just, first of all, not taking them personally. You know, too many of us turn our bosses into our parents. And then when the boss says or does something, it hurts our feelings. Women are particularly susceptible to this, much more than men, that we over-personalize things.

Starting point is 00:20:06 So first of all, you know, whatever your boss says, no, don't take it. Don't take it personally. It's not personal. It's just business. And then to really watch, listen, ask questions. And your boss is always giving you signals about what's important to him or her. You can tell by what's in your boss's office. If your boss has lots of diplomas and awards and degrees and things like that,

Starting point is 00:20:36 that boss is oriented by power and achievement. And if you know that about the boss, then you can point out how giving you a yes will help get them more power. Because the question is always what's in it for them. If, on the other hand, your boss has pictures of the company softball team, pictures of their pets, their family, seascapes, bowls of flowers, things like that, that boss is motivated by achievement. I'm sorry, by affiliation. And that boss needs to be popular.

Starting point is 00:21:11 They want to be loved more than they want to be respected. And so you say, well, if we do this, boy, it's really going to win points with the troops. So you use that. Another signal is to watch for data. Data on a boss's wall, like charts, graphs, maps, sales figures, things like that. That boss is really oriented by achievement more than anything else. The three things that bosses are motivated by are power, affiliation, and achievement. So once you know that, then you've got that leverage and you simply speak their language to turn that no around. It does seem

Starting point is 00:21:51 though that some people are better at sizing up people the way you just described. Some people are, like salespeople, are better at that, I think, than I am. See, salespeople, they are amateur psychologists. Some of them are even professional psychologists. And children are pretty good at sizing people up. You know, children are just really intuitive. They pay a lot of attention to the giants around them because their survival depends on their ability to manipulate the people around them, the big people around them. The rest of us somehow have forgotten that. But if we could relearn, like here's another thing to know about your boss. Is your boss a reader or a listener?

Starting point is 00:22:35 Simply knowing that can transform your relationship with your boss. Because the bottom line is bosses need information. They need to be informed. They don't like surprises. But how you get that information to your boss makes all the difference. If your boss is a reader and you go in and you're just chatting and talking all the time, the boss isn't going to get the information he or she needs. And you can tell because their eyes glaze over.

Starting point is 00:23:04 And you go, oh, he's not listening anymore. If on the other hand, your boss is a listener, and I've learned this the hard way, Mike, the last boss I had in a large organization was a reader and not a listener. And so I'm sorry, he was a listener and not a reader, but I'm a reader. So I was sending him emails and reports and memos all the time, and I got back nothing. I got silence, and I thought, what's wrong? I'm trying to keep him informed. I'm leaving a paper trail. What am I doing wrong? And what I suddenly realized, you know, there's that old saying, we teach what we need to learn.

Starting point is 00:23:42 And I realized, oh, he's a listener. He's not a reader. He didn't want to read anything longer than one page. He wanted me to come down and brief him. He wanted to argue about it. He wanted to debate. He was a verbal, oral person. He wasn't a visual person.

Starting point is 00:24:00 He wasn't a reader. Once I realized that and I quit sending him all the memos, our relationship improved dramatically. Do you have any other ways that people can maybe read their boss better? Another thing to pay attention to is energy level. We all have biorhythms. There are certain times of the day when we're more energetic, we're more alert than others. So pay attention. Is your boss a morning person?

Starting point is 00:24:28 Is your boss an afternoon person? Is your boss a night owl? Timing is everything. Timing can be the single reason why you get a no instead of a yes. You just hit the boss at the wrong time. So by paying attention to when is the boss most receptive, in the morning when he's got his coffee, is he in there at 6 a.m., or is your boss someone who's better in the afternoon after she's had lunch and she's relaxed? Timing is everything.

Starting point is 00:24:58 You know, it really seems like the message is that if you want someone to say yes, it isn't just about what you want them to say yes to. It's about understanding who they are, the situation you're in, the time of day, the type of person they are. All of those factors collectively make a big difference as to whether or not you're going to get a yes or a no. BJ Gallagher has been my guest. The book is Yes Lives in the Land of No, and you'll find the link to that book in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, BJ. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and

Starting point is 00:25:42 family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong?

Starting point is 00:26:27 And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Statistically speaking, we have fewer good friends today than people did 25 years ago. Good friends as in people you can confide in. Not social media friends, but real close, be-in-the-same-room kind of personal friends. I know I don't have as many friends as I used to. I know a lot of people who can say that same thing.

Starting point is 00:27:14 When I just look around, I mean, I don't know my neighbors like my parents knew their neighbors. We are seemingly more isolated, and given that human beings are social creatures, this is probably not such a good thing. One person who's trying to do something about this is Radha Agrawal. She's an entrepreneur, investor, inventor, speaker, and lifelong community builder. She founded Daybreaker, which is a grassroots early morning dance phenomenon that began in 2013 as a social experiment. She's also the author of a book called Belong. Find your People,

Starting point is 00:27:53 Create Community, and Live a More Connected Life. Hi, Radha. So you're clearly a big proponent of people being more connected, having close friends, and being part of a community. So why do you think this is so important? I mean, it is the human experience. It is in our DNA to belong. We cannot actually survive as a species without it. I mean, think about it. Cheetahs and bears are stronger and faster than we are, but we're at the top of the food chain because we're the best at collaborating. We're the best at skill sharing.

Starting point is 00:28:21 We're the best at storytelling. So if we're programmed to belong, if we're required by nature to be part of groups, why is it so hard? Why do people have such a difficult time today making friends? Because we don't know how to make friends anymore. I mean, we haven't prioritized communities. I mean, if you think about it, when was the last time you wrote down a list of the qualities you're looking for in a friend, right? We do this for our romantic lives, right? We write down what we're looking for in a romantic partner. We write down what we're looking for in a professional career. We do all these exercises for ourselves in those areas that we rarely, if ever, do them for our friendships. Well, I think one of the problems people have,

Starting point is 00:29:02 I remember a time in my life where I thought, you know, I wish I had more friends. And I sat down and thought about, well, how do you do that? Exactly. Where do you go? Who? So dive into that. How do you do that? How do you make friends? Because when you go and ask somebody, will you be my friend? I mean, it's almost like that, right? But I bought every book I could find on community building when I started building my own community, Daybreaker, which is now half a million people in 25 cities around the world. And I've spent now the last 10 years of my career building communities. But what I realized in buying all the books that I could find was that they all ask the question or answer the question, why is it important to belong, right? Why is community important? But none of them actually really talked about how, how do we belong? So I really wanted to offer that, you know, those tips and tools. And so to belong, it starts with a deep

Starting point is 00:30:03 adventure within, right? You have to go in to go out is my mantra for making friends and building community. And I think so often in this journey, we're looking outside of ourselves. We're saying, who's out there who can be my friend? How can I make a friend today to go to the movies with without asking ourselves, wait a minute, do they align with my values, my interests, my abilities? Are they really connected to what I'm connected to? You know, how can I actually spend some time getting gooey and comfortable with myself first? Really take the time to go inside of ourselves before we get out there and look for our friendship. So for example, you know, one of the things I ask

Starting point is 00:30:43 you to do is write down the five people with whom you're spending the most time with today and ask yourself, are they grandfathered in? Are they bringing you up? Are they bringing you down? Is your only friend your spouse? One of the things I noticed, and of course the stats prove that as well, is when I ask men, in particular older men, who their best friend is, all of them say it's their wife. And then when I ask men, in particular older men, who their best friend is, all of them say it's their wife. And then when I say, well, when you remove your wife, who else is there that you can confide in? And particularly the older demographic, they don't have any because they've been taught to grow a pair. You don't need anybody. You're fine on your own emotions. What's that vulnerability? Why? And then now add a layer of digital, add a layer of social media onto the mix, and now we're even more confused and lost than ever. So women and men, not to mention women, are comparing themselves more than ever online and having these sort of judgment moments because of social media, and it inflames us. And so social media has made us much more sensitive. Look how politically

Starting point is 00:31:46 polarized our country is and just how quick we are to write off our friends. Oh, they made one mistake in the comment they made. I'm never speaking to them again. We're just very, very sensitive. We've forgotten how to forgive each other. We have forgotten how to have nuanced conversations. And so one of the things I'm really passionate about is getting back to the basics of, wait, what is the most important thing to survive and thrive? And that is to belong. As you said, though, older people, especially when you ask them about their friendships, they say, you know, emotions, what's that?

Starting point is 00:32:21 If you were to tell an older person or any person who really hasn't connected on this, that you need to go on a journey within and you need to look inside and people are going to go, what? You know, I mean, I don't even know what that really means. So let's, okay, so let's do this exercise together. So step one is write down three columns, just draw three columns. Column one is what are all the qualities I'm looking for in a friend? So I want friends to talk about ideas and not each other. I want friends who are interesting and interested. I want friends who go to the gym and like to work out and think of wellness as an important part of their day. I want friends who

Starting point is 00:33:02 say F yes and lean in to life and adventure. I want friends who are enthusiastic and playful. Right. So I wrote down all these qualities looking for a friend. And then column two was all the qualities I didn't want in a friend. I didn't want shoulder shruggers. I didn't want negative Nellies, Netflix and children, you know, chillers. I didn't want negativity and, and so on and so forth. I wrote down everything. And column three, perhaps the most important column, was all the qualities that I needed to embody in order to attract the friends that I wanted. So I needed to be less of a workaholic, right? I had to put down my laptop and stop counting on my friends and being a flake. I was named most flaky friend at our Christmas party three years ago, four years ago. And I just couldn't believe that I'm a community builder who is also flaky, you know. So I now had

Starting point is 00:33:53 to turn the mirror on myself. Like, what was my energy when I showed up, when I walked in the door somewhere? Was I bringing people up or bringing people down? What was my energy like? So really facing myself was a really wonderful first step. And those three columns were the beginning of a life-changing 30s. And from 30 to 39, I mean, it's just 180 degree difference from feeling lost and alone to feeling sort of in deep community, intentional, and having found my tribe. Okay, so I understand, you know, what you want in a friend, what you don't want in a friend, what you bring to the friendship, those three columns, that's great. But at some point, you have to go out and actually meet people. So where do you go? What's that process?

Starting point is 00:34:40 The first thing I ask you to do is just plot out a list of communities that you want to explore that align with your values, your interests, and your abilities. Right? So today, my interests are I love music festivals. I love social entrepreneurship. I love family stuff because I'm eight months pregnant right now. So I'm very interested in parenting. So these are all my interests. So then I started, okay, plotting out what are the different communities that I can connect with that

Starting point is 00:35:11 align with these interests. And then I began exploring them, not just as a bucket list experience where you're like, I checked off my list, but something that you return to time and time again, that participation is such an important part of belonging, which is why church has been such a critical part of our history for thousands of years, because you're going there every Sunday. Every Sunday you're seeing the same community members. Every Sunday you feel a sense of belonging, that one of the reasons perhaps that people have trouble making friends is that listening to your process sounds, well, in some ways sounds like a lot of work and in other ways sounds very deliberate. Whereas when I look back at the people in my life that have been friends

Starting point is 00:35:59 over the years, it wasn't a deliberate process. They were just people that I ran into that were friends of friends, or you meet them on the train or whatever, that become friends, and they may not even have the characteristics that if I really sat and thought about it, I'd want in a friend, but somehow they're just friends. It just, in other words, that friendship just happens. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, this is why I would say, first of all, you're one of the lucky ones. But one in four Americans have zero friends to confide in, and this number has tripled in the last 30 years. One in three Americans above the age of 65, one in two above the age of 85 is socially isolated and completely alone. So, yes, I mean, it's of course, lucky cases where

Starting point is 00:36:45 you might happen to meet people. I mean, you've interviewed thousands of people for this podcast. I'm sure many of them must have turned into friends, you know. But yeah, you're one of the lucky ones. But 25 to 50% of the population aren't so lucky. And so we have to take that time to get intentional about our tribe. And ultimately, as researchers have shown from Harvard, that that is the single most important thing we will, the Costa Ricans, they live the longest and they live the healthiest because of their communities. Again, Harvard has tied isolation to be as harmful to your physical health as being an alcoholic and twice as harmful as obesity. So it's clear that our isolation is killing us and it's making us sick. Depending on where you live, though, and maybe not depending on where you live,

Starting point is 00:37:50 identifying those people and those groups that you might want to be part of their community might be difficult to do. So how do you, in a very practical way, how do you find these groups to go check out? Step one, again, once you go inside and write down your interests, like what are you interested in doing, then now you go to meetup.com. You go to, I don't know if you've heard of Meetup, but Meetup is a wonderful website that has hundreds of thousands of communities organized by city, by what you're interested in. And so you can go on meetup.com. You can go on Facebook groups, find them. This is where the online world can be beautiful,

Starting point is 00:38:30 but don't stay on there and get caught. And that's what happens. We get caught in the endless scroll. But go on there tactically and surgically. Go and find the communities that align with your values and your interests and then start showing up. Like, that's literally it. It's just showing up.

Starting point is 00:38:46 Last night I had a book event here in Washington, D.C., where I am right now, and 80 people showed up. And, you know, they didn't have to, but they came, and we had this wonderful evening. No one knew each other. And by the end of it, we had set up a Facebook group. Now we're adding everybody on there. They're all going to meet up with each other. We had breakouts, and everyone met and connected.

Starting point is 00:39:04 So it's just really about saying yes to things, putting your shoes on and going and basically stopping your limiting beliefs that what is life for if not for trying new things, if not for getting out of my comfort zone, if not for removing the mean girls of our mind, which I talk about a lot. The mean girls or in the male case, the mean girls of our mind, which I talk about a lot. The mean girls, or in the male case, the mean boys of our mind are comparison, judgment, and perfectionism. We compare ourselves, we judge ourselves, and then we continue nitpicking ourselves as perfectionists, and each other as a result. So, you know, we sit with these mean girls in the cafeteria of our minds every day, not realizing that that's actually the default of what it means to be an animal. You have to actively go and sit with the soul sisters,

Starting point is 00:39:49 which are the opposite of the mean girls. So the opposite of comparison is inspiration. Be inspired by those people, right? And the opposite of perfectionism is gratitude. Be grateful for the people around you, not nitpicking what they're doing wrong, right? The opposite of judgment is curiosity. Why am I being judgmental of this person or myself or this moment or this thing that I'm about to do? Just get out there and do it. My most depressed friend said to me, you know, the single most salient and potent thing that got me out of my depression was this one word, and it was curiosity. My mother, for example, she's 70 years old. This

Starting point is 00:40:25 is two weeks ago. This is an incredible story. She's Japanese, English is her second language. She speaks like, say, hello, I'm from Japan. And she moved to Baltimore a month ago, didn't know a single person. Instead of sitting at home and wallowing in self-pity and watching Netflix and saying, I don't know anybody, she wrote a handwritten letter that just said, hi, my name is Mireille. I just moved to the neighborhood. I don't know anybody. She wrote a handwritten letter that just said, hi, my name is Mireille. I just moved to the neighborhood. I don't know anybody. I'd like to make some Japanese lady friends and not male friends.

Starting point is 00:40:50 I'm happily married, but I want to make some Japanese lady friends. And here's my phone number. If you want to be my friend, please give me a call. And then she courageously drove that letter to the closest Japanese restaurant in the neighborhood, gave it to the general manager. I'm not even kidding. General manager of the Japanese restaurant in the neighborhood, gave it to the general manager. I'm not even

Starting point is 00:41:05 kidding. General manager of the Japanese restaurant said, excuse me, if you meet some Japanese ladies, please show them this letter. And the following week, her phone has not stopped ringing off the hook. That's a great story. Three dates already. And I just was so stoked for her, you know? You know, what's interesting, and I was talking about this not long ago, that it is interesting that it does seem as we get older, friends fall away. They disappear. They, for whatever reason, and probably lots of different reasons in different cases, but it does seem that, you know, I have fewer friends than I used to. I had a million friends when I was in school, and where'd they go?

Starting point is 00:41:46 Right. So because here's exactly what happened. You stopped prioritizing friendships. You said to me 10 minutes ago, well, you're supposed to just make friends happenstance. Like, I don't think it feels so surgical to be able to have to, you know, take the time to do it. But that's the beauty of life, right? Like, that's what, you know, the older I get, I'm almost 40. I'm going through the process of motherhood. It's a whole new journey for me. All my friends are much younger than me. I'm one of the first ones in my community to have a baby. So

Starting point is 00:42:14 it's a completely new community for me too. So in many ways, Mike, I'm starting over as well, right? But it's up to you, Mike, if, you know, I don't have as many friends as before. You could have if you wanted to, if you wanted to prioritize it, right? And I think that's really where it gets exciting, where we get to push each other to say, oh, right, I haven't been prioritizing it. I have been only prioritizing, or I've been so focused on my family and my kids and raising them. But now it's my turn again. They're grown up. They're out of the house.

Starting point is 00:42:41 This whole subject of, you know, making friends, not having enough friends, wishing you had more friends, wishing you belonged, nobody really talks about it. It's like taboo. For some reason in our society, it's shameful to say, I don't belong, I don't have friends. So we hide behind terms like I'm introverted, I'm extroverted, I'm socially anxious. We hide behind all of these terms because we're ashamed of it. So it doesn't matter how popular you are on social media. We all go through this journey of, my gosh, where are my friends at? And it's time that we stop shaming ourselves and being embarrassed about it. Just saying, hey guys, I'm in a new period of my life. I'm just making new friends right now. Let's get together and play cards or whatever it is and hang out and go to the movies. And I'm starting a group.

Starting point is 00:43:30 And if anybody wants to join, join with me. There's so many simple steps that you can take to starting a community and having the The single most generous act we can do as human beings is to create community. That is it. That is the single most generous act we can do as human beings is to create community. That is it. That is the single most generous act we can do is to create community for ourselves, for each other, because when we create community for ourselves, we are happier, we are healthier, we are less anxious, we are less depressed, we are more likely to hear each other, more likely to forgive each

Starting point is 00:44:02 other. So for ourselves to create community is so generous. It's such a good point you make that, you know, there is this shame around it. We can't talk about it. Gee, I wish I had more friends. Will you be my friend? But we don't. We can't. But maybe now after listening to you, we can. Radha Agrawal has been my guest. She is an entrepreneur, a lifelong community builder, founder of Daybreaker, and author of the book Belong. Find your people, create community, and live a more connected life. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Radha.

Starting point is 00:44:36 Thanks, Mike. It's been a deep pleasure to be with you on this podcast. Have you ever had that left-out feeling because all your friends are going to the big sold-out concert and you're not? Well, instead of being sad, maybe you should rejoice, according to Sam Parker of Esquire magazine. Going to a concert, almost any concert, is objectively a horrible experience, and here's why. Parking is almost always a nightmare, and it's always expensive, and getting out of the parking lot takes just as long as the concert itself. The concert almost always starts late, but the tickets tell you to get there insanely early. The result is this endless stretch of time with nothing to do

Starting point is 00:45:22 except buy overpriced drinks and overpriced merchandise. The sound is usually too loud and terrible. Concert venues typically have horrible acoustics. As the concert goes on, your fellow audience members become drunker and more obnoxious. And there are really only so many great seats in the house. And you're probably not sitting in one of them. A lot of the music that the band plays you've never heard before and probably don't ever care to hear again. And when they finally do play your favorite song from ten years ago, it never sounds as good as the recording that you've come to love.

Starting point is 00:46:01 Then, when it's all over, we tell ourselves and everyone else how great it was. But as Mr. Parker from Esquire says, nowhere in life is there such a gulf between what we tell ourselves about an experience and what the experience is actually like. So if you don't get to go to the concert, take comfort, because what you think you missed is probably better than what you really missed. And that is something you should know. Ratings and reviews are always welcome. They only take a moment and they really do make an impact and help us out. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for

Starting point is 00:46:38 listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church

Starting point is 00:47:08 for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

Starting point is 00:47:25 Chinook, starring Kelly Marie, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table,

Starting point is 00:48:00 and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - What to Do When People Say No & Why You Need Friends and Where to Find Them

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