Something You Should Know - What We’ve Lost to the Internet For Better or Worse & How Money Makes You Happy

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Starting point is 00:00:46 It's so interesting about the Rolodex because of what the Rolodex used to symbolize. It was a power thing. And what it symbolized is that idea of you are who you know. And now, you're not who you know. We all know everyone. Also, a simple way to remember names when you meet someone that really seems to work. And the fascinating connections between money and happiness. What scientists have found is people who have five or more friends outside their immediate

Starting point is 00:01:15 family are 50% happier than people who don't. Well, it takes time to cultivate those friendships. And if you're so busy earning so that you can spend more and more and more, you don't have time to invest in that. All this today on Something You Should Know. From the kitchen to the laundry room, your home deserves the best. Give it the upgrade it deserves at Best Buy's Ultimate Appliance Event. Save up to $1,000 on two or more major appliances.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Shop now, in-store, or online at bestbuy.ca exclusions apply something you should know fascinating intel the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers that's me welcome to to Something You Should Know. There's something I bet you've done, I know I've done, you see people do this all the time, and that is you're talking on the phone

Starting point is 00:02:14 in a noisy environment, and so in order to hear the person on the other end of the call better, you cover your other ear, or you put your finger in your other ear to block out the noise, which seems to make sense, but it doesn't really help, as it turns out. The reason it's hard to hear is because that ambient noise around you is going into your mouthpiece

Starting point is 00:02:38 and coming back out in your ear that's held up to the phone. And it's mixed in with the other person's voice on the other end of the call. And that's why it's so difficult to hear what the other person is saying. So you're much better off muting the phone or covering the mouthpiece of the phone while the other person is talking and you're listening. You'll be able to understand what the other person is saying much better than sticking your finger in your other ear. And that is something you should know.

Starting point is 00:03:11 Think about all the things the Internet has done for you, what it allows you to do that you could never do before. It's truly remarkable. You can look up anything. You can send a message to anyone. You can play games. You can work. You can talk. You can share. On and on and on. On the other hand, there are many things the internet has taken away from us. The encyclopedia, the Rolodex, the kitchen phone, even the ability to disconnect from the world. It's something Pamela Paul has taken a fascinating look at.

Starting point is 00:03:46 Pamela is the editor of the New York Times Book Review. She's also host of the New York Times Book Review podcast, and she's author of the book 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet. Hi, Pamela. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So why do you think this is important to discuss, what the internet has taken away? I mean, it could seem that you're just kind of pining for the good old days before the internet.

Starting point is 00:04:13 But the internet has given us so much, why focus on what it's taken away? Well, it's hard not to think about the internet all the time because it infuses our lives in every way. But I think that when we do think about the internet, we're often in forward motion, right? We're like, wait, what is this new thing? How does this new thing work? Does everybody else have this new thing? Should I download that app? Should I check out that website? I think what we do less frequently is kind of pause and say, wait a minute, what did I do before I split the check with Zelly, with all my friends? Like, how did we do this? What was the method? How did I know what was even in my bank account before I could just go online and check my account? So I wanted to pause and rewind a second and kind of just stay in that place and figure out, like, what is it that we used to do?

Starting point is 00:05:11 Something that the Internet has replaced that we used to do, and it's hard to imagine we used to do this, is like, let's say you and I go to the mall together and you go your way and I go my way because we want to look at different things. Well, how do we meet up? How do we meet up later to go home? And, you know, now we just text, OK, I'm done. I'm over at the food court. Meet me there. But before, you had to be very precise. I'll meet you at, you know, 930 in the food court and we'll go home then.

Starting point is 00:05:46 All of that is gone. And it's interesting that you talk about like, well, how did people meet up at Disneyland? Or if one person was going on the line to get the tickets, how did they communicate that to the person who thinks they're meeting at the front of the theater, whatever it might be? Somehow we all got by and yet it's incomprehensible to us. I mean, one example to think is really interesting when parents talk about why and when they allow their children to get their own phone. The reason, the thing that breaks them is, well, my kid is now commuting or going to school on his own.

Starting point is 00:06:26 And so I want to be able to reach him or her. I want to know where she or he is. I want to be able to say like, hey, guess what? The piano teacher canceled. You don't have to come home for your lesson or whatever it is. And the fact, the idea that you might not be able to communicate with your child at that point is so incomprehensible to so many of us parents that it's frightening. It's frightening to think like, is the ability really to get away, to go away for the weekend or go on a vacation or just go away for a couple of hours and nobody knows where you are. You're just gone. That sense of solitude is always, you're always being nagged. What am I missing? who's texting me now? And it's really hard to have that. And it's hard on both ends, right?

Starting point is 00:07:30 So it's hard for you, the person who's trying to flee, you know, the world. And it's really hard for the outside world to disconnect with you. Like the idea of being unreachable is now essentially a slap in the face. No one is ever unreachable. And it's interesting when you watch movies or TV shows and everything is built around the idea that either you can reach someone at any given moment, and the only reason why you can't is if they ignore you and they dismiss the phone call. But here's the other part of it, which is that even if you do disconnect, even if you are some superhuman and you're like, you know what, just not going to turn my phone on or maybe I'm even going to leave it at home. The problem is you still know it's there.

Starting point is 00:08:23 You know, you still know there are lots of people reaching you. They're just hitting like a wall of silence. And that knowledge just affects that idea of getting away that we all miss. Related to that, and it's the first thing in your book, is boredom. And I'm fascinated by this, that anytime anybody feels bored, they just go pick up their phone and either play a game or send an email or send a text or whatever nobody's just allowed to sit and be still because nobody thinks that that's a good thing that you you've got to fill up every moment with something and if there's nothing there's always the internet right and the internet is everything the internet. Right. And the internet is everything. The internet is diversion, it's entertainment, it's information. And the truth is, the reason why boredom is,

Starting point is 00:09:12 I mean, boredom is boring. It's not all great. But the reason boredom is important or experiencing that emptiness is that you have to stop all of the input in order to generate output. You need those empty moments in order to come up with ideas of your own, in order to be creative. And there's a reason why you might come up with ideas when either you're driving on a long highway and it's not that exciting, or you're in the shower and you pretty much know how to clean yourself by now so your mind can wander. That's because there's nothing else coming in. There's no new exciting information. So you come up with ideas. And we used to have those moments far more frequently when we were in the backseat of the car, for example. But now what we do during those empty moments,

Starting point is 00:10:00 and I'm as guilty as anyone is like, you're like, oh, I have 12 minutes to wait for the next train. I am going to play Spelling Bee and get Queen Bee status, or I am going to read all the headlines in the news, or I'm going to listen to that podcast. I'm going to go to the next chapter in the audio book I'm playing. I'm going to rise to level five in whatever game that I'm into. I am going to check my Facebook slash Twitter slash Instagram slash Snapchat. We essentially use up all of our time. And the time that goes unused, it almost feels at this point, again, like a kind of dereliction. Like, what am I doing with myself if I'm not doing something? One thing that the internet doesn't

Starting point is 00:10:46 seem to have taken away like you think it should is books that there is some resistance to reading and for me i mean i would much rather read a real book than to read an e-book uh and you know a lot plenty of people read e-books but there there does seem to be some resistance that people still like books. People do like books. You know, look, just like video didn't kill the radio star, e-books did not kill the print book. It's really nice to hold that object in your hand. It's really nice to be able to collect a book. It's nice to flip through a book.

Starting point is 00:11:31 You know, there are advantages for some readers of reading on a device, and those advantages are not insignificant. Like for people who have vision problems, you can enlarge the type. And then for people who might have other learning challenges, it's sometimes much easier to listen to a book online via Audible or whatever it might be, or to have a visually enhanced text. So there are definitely pluses. But for me, and I think for a lot of people, it's that sort of tangible, tactile experience of turning the pages. It's being able to flip and say, wait, how many pages left in this chapter? It's looking at illustrations. It's checking out the index. It's looking at the

Starting point is 00:12:14 inside flap. Yeah. It's being able to hold a real physical thing. And something else that you mentioned that I haven't thought about until I saw it in your book is the Rolodex. And I imagine you can still buy a Rolodex, but I don't know anybody that would use it. But there was something about having a Rolodex. And it was like, you know, if you had a lot of cards in it with names and phone numbers on it, that that was that was real cool. It's so interesting about the Rolodex because it's a couple of things. One is obviously it's an actual physical item, right? And I have one on my desk too, and it's like covered in dust. I mean, I haven't stuck a card in there in years,

Starting point is 00:12:57 and yet I can't bring myself to throw it away. So there's the physical thing. And then there's just the idea of what the Rolodex used to symbolize. It was a power thing. If you went into like the office of say a big Hollywood agent or a senior vice president at an investment bank, there might not be just one Rolodex, but like three Rolodexes, you know, and there were those different kinds. You had the actual like flip old-fashioned circular Rolodex. Then you had the ones that were like the long rectangular Rolodexes that lay flat. And what it symbolized is that idea of you are who you know. And now you're not who you know.

Starting point is 00:13:35 We all know everyone. If you want to be connected to Beyonce, by all means, you go and follow her. We can all be linked to someone. We can be quote quote unquote, their friend with a certain amount of ease, or at the very least, one of their followers. It's just not that big a deal to know anyone anymore. In fact, now it's harder not to know someone. One of the ways in which this manifests during my day-to-day work life as the editor of the New York Times Book Review is that we're trying to assign books,

Starting point is 00:14:11 ideally, to be reviewed by people who don't know the author. And back in the day, in the before times, that used to be something really simple. You'd be like, do you know the author? No, never met him. But now they might say, well, I don't know the author of that book, but we're Facebook friends, but I've never met her. Or I've noticed that we have 157 connections in common on LinkedIn, but I don't think I've ever met her. Or we once texted, but it was a group text and it wasn't direct. So what does it really mean to know someone anymore? We're discussing all the things we've lost to the internet and why it's important to discuss them. My guest is Pamela Paul. She is author of the book, 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand

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Starting point is 00:15:40 Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Starting point is 00:16:35 Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Pamela, one of the things you talk about is you say we've lost humility to the Internet. So what do you mean by that? Well, look, the internet encourages us to kind of strut, to show our plumes and our feathers and to say like, look at my kid. Oh, wow. I just did this. Look at how many friends I have. Look at

Starting point is 00:17:19 all my connections. Let me tell you about my latest job promotion. And one thing we know also is that on social media, people respond best to faces, to photographs of other people as opposed to objects. So that really also encourages the idea of selfies and sort of constantly photographing yourself and documenting yourself. And in a way, it turns us all into reality TV stars. We're all kind of lightly performing. And again, I don't think it's that we're all jerks or show-offs, but it does kind of reward too. And what I mean by that, it's not the fun way. It's not like the rich and famous and powerful way. It's the downside of celebrity way, which means that anyone can say anything about us at any time. And we basically can't control it. And we can be seen by anyone at any time. And we could be talked about by anyone at any time. And something that we do can go viral and be commented endlessly on YouTube. And we don't have any control over that. You're not in control of the fact that everyone else is photographing you, is commenting on you,

Starting point is 00:18:39 is turning you, videotaping you, turning you into some kind of meme. I mean, it's interesting. I was talking to a friend and she has a family relative who suffers from mental illness. And this person is posting about my friend online and posting photographs and telling stories about her that are not true. There's really not a lot you can do about that in this country. And that's kind of frightening. It feels like you're out of control. Well, that's the downside of celebrity. That's what celebrities have always had. They've had stalkers and people who say untrue things and write rumors and print terrible stories about them and tabloids. It's kind of turned us all into celebrities as well. So that's not the humility part of it, but that's just kind of another extension of the fact that we are all observing and being observed and commenting about one another at all times. One of the interesting things is, this is particularly

Starting point is 00:19:39 interesting to me because I have this useless ability to remember phone numbers. And you used to have to remember people's phone numbers. I used to have friends and my grandmother and everybody's phone number I could remember. Nobody remembers phone numbers anymore because there's no need for it. And I bet it would be hard for people. I think it's a skill probably that you have to practice to do. Oh, for sure. I mean, I can tell you my phone number growing up, 944-7091. My best friend was 944-6327. I don't know what my daughter's phone number is. I mean, you could put a gun to my head and say, call her. And if I didn't have her name saved in my favorites and could just click there or ask Siri. I would not be able to reach her.

Starting point is 00:20:28 And also, and there's another one in your list, the kitchen phone. We used to have a kitchen phone and that was like the place. I mean, everybody talked on the kitchen phone. Now nobody talks in front of anybody else. Yeah. The kitchen phone was the portal to the house. That was the only way that anyone could get in without walking through the front door. And for someone to get in and to go through that portal, there was often a gatekeeper.

Starting point is 00:20:58 So if someone was trying to reach your brother, maybe you or your mom would pick up the phone and you'd say, who's calling? And now you knew, and you knew how long they talked for. And maybe you could listen in to half the conversation and all of that is lost. It used to be that you had the kitchen phone, and it had that long coil. And that coil would always end up kind of twisted and going in the wrong direction. And once it had sort of gone the wrong turn, you could never get it back. Do you remember that? Like you'd spend that time playing with that coil while you were on the phone, trying to untwist it to get it to go right again. Yeah, you used to have to hang it, like you stand on a chair and hold it way up

Starting point is 00:21:39 high so it would unwind itself. Totally, totally. Periodically, you had to kind of let it go and let it like, and like unwhirl. And that was really fun. I also remember chewing on it, which is, I'm sure, really dangerous and toxic. Well, I asked you this at the very beginning and I'm going to bring it up again because here we are joking about the kitchen phone

Starting point is 00:21:59 and unwinding the cord and remembering all this very nostalgically. But what's the point of that? I mean, those things are gone. They're gone. So let's move on. Well, I would say a few things. First of all, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:22:13 It's not all bad that these things are lost. Some of these things that are lost are good and bad. For one example of that is, you know, being the only one. So being the only one, that could be a good thing. That could be a bad thing. But on the internet, you're never the only one. So being the only one, that could be a good thing. That could be a bad thing. But on the internet, you're never the only one. You can always find out, like, let's say your really cool original hobby is taking old soda bottles and water bottles and constructing enormous sculptures of birds out of them and photographing them in these beautiful landscapes. And you'd think, I am the only one on the planet who does this. But you go online and chances are,

Starting point is 00:22:51 you'll find dozens of people who do the same weird craft or hobby that you do. And not only that, but they've been doing it for longer and they do it much better than you ever did. If you have a child and he's born with a rare genetic disorder, and in the old days, it would be really impossible to find other people to talk to about what that experience was like to give each other recommendations for treatments and doctors. Now you can immediately find a community of people online who you can commiserate with and exchange information with. that's amazing so i'm not saying that all of this is terrible and that all of it is negative like some of it is pretty good

Starting point is 00:23:32 you know and some of it is is pining for the because like one of the things you talk about is the you know record albums and but the fact is record albums sucked. I mean, they scratched, they warped, they were terrible, they would sound crappy, and even CDs would skip. And, you know, yeah, I kind of miss them, but I don't really miss them. Ah, see, okay, I agree with everything you said, but I also, like, just the smell of that record and just the fun thing of, like, putting the needle onto the needle onto, placing that needle. I do remember when they all then became automatic. And then it was like, that was a very fancy thing to have a stereo where the needle kind

Starting point is 00:24:12 of automatically landed in the right place. But so I do miss aspects of records. And what I miss, again, beyond the physical thing, is maybe just the patience of listening to the full side of an album and not skipping ahead, not immediately, you know, replaying something because you don't want to have to get up off the sofa and like move that needle back, but just allowing for the experience of how the artists and the producer decided the order of the songs, the way in which they wanted to have you hear it and listening to it. And remember the idea that you would invite friends over or your girlfriend or whatever it

Starting point is 00:24:50 might be, and just to listen to records or to listen to a new album. So that part I kind of miss. Yeah. Well, when you think about it, and as we've been discussing here, there are so many things that have disappeared really very quickly, and all because of one thing, one thing being the internet. I guess that's what makes this so fascinating. Pamela Paul has been my guest. She is the editor of the New York Times Book Review, and she is author of the book, 100 Things We've Lost to the Internet. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Pamela.

Starting point is 00:25:28 Thank you so much, Mike. It's been really fun. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI,

Starting point is 00:26:05 discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. And Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong.

Starting point is 00:26:56 And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Doesn't matter who you are, money is always a big factor in your life, every single day. The kind of life you live is determined in large part

Starting point is 00:27:24 by how much money you have, how much money you think you're going to have, and what you choose to spend it on. Money is also a source of happiness or unhappiness for a lot of people. Laura Rowley, for many years, was a journalist and columnist who wrote about money for Self Magazine and the Huffington Post, and she is author of a book called Money and Happiness, a guide to living the good life. Hi, Laura. So as a longtime personal finance columnist,

Starting point is 00:27:53 I'm sure you've talked to a lot of people about their money and their money troubles. What do you find, if there's any one thing, what do you find is at the core of the trouble, typically? I found a lot of times there was a big gap between what people said they valued and what they were doing with their money. So how do you close that gap? How do you identify what you truly value and then align your money with it so you can be happy? So how does that happen? How is there that separation between what I value and what I do with my money.

Starting point is 00:28:30 Yeah, I think we kind of go along and then we get out of college or we get out of school and we start to work and you make money and then you have a lifestyle that's based on how much money you have and it kind of rolls along and you never stop to say, well, wait a minute, what do I truly value and how can I make my money reflect that? So give me a real-life example of what that looks like, what it's like to have certain values, and then what you do with your money is not in alignment with that. I interviewed somebody who told me she wanted to start her own business and yet had $10,000 in credit card debt and $30,000 in student loans and hadn't

Starting point is 00:29:06 started paying them back and was spending $500 a month on entertainment. None of these things seem to be related to that goal of starting her own business. So I guess that's the simplest example. Well, Anna, I imagine anyone who says that, you know, they're very concerned about and want to make sure they have a comfortable retirement one day, but they don't do anything to save for that retirement. Absolutely. Well, the other thing is I spoke to people who said, you know, one of the things I value most is my children's education, and they hadn't saved anything for college. So it's that sort of thing. And there's reasons that we do that. Our brains kind of work against us in that respect.

Starting point is 00:29:44 So explain that. Our brains kind of work against us in that respect. So explain that. How does that work? There's something called the hedonic treadmill. You know, when you have a great family, you usually don't say, gee, you know, I'm going to go out and get another one because this is so great. But we always do that with money and material goods. And it's really hard to get off that treadmill. And one of the reasons, there's a lot of reasons,

Starting point is 00:30:02 but one of the big things is something called the hot-cold empathy gap. It's a psychological term for when you're in a cold or neutral state, you have a hard time imagining what you would do or what you would say when you're in a hot state, when you're angry or hungry or in pain. And then when you're in a hot state, it's hard to imagine what you would do or say if you were in a cold state. And psychologists have found in research that people who are not in a shopping situation underestimate the urge to splurge that happens as soon as they walk into a mall. So, you know, you don't, you think, oh, I'll just go shopping,

Starting point is 00:30:38 and then at the end of the day, it's like, where did the money go? Why, though? What motivates the spending for people? Well, research has found that women will overspend to stay with a social group. They'll do what their friends are doing, and then if they don't have that income before they know what they're in over their heads, men will overspend to impress other people. So it's kind of a competitive thing. So what is the price we pay? What is the price for having your values and your money out of alignment like that? Well, that's a great question.

Starting point is 00:31:09 What scientists have found is, for example, people who have five or more friends outside of their immediate family are 50% happier than people who don't. Well, it takes time to cultivate those friendships. And if you're so busy earning so that you can spend more and more and more, which is the hedonic treadmill we get on, you don't have time to invest in that. You don't have time to invest in your health. You don't have time to invest in volunteering,

Starting point is 00:31:32 all the other aspects of your life that might make you happy. And the problem is we tend to overestimate how happy more money will make us. And they've done studies that have found this where, you know, they ask people, well, would you take a new job for more money if it required more time traveling, more time in the office, more time away from your family? And two-thirds of people said yes. You know, there was only one third who said they probably not. Nobody said no, because we think the money will make us happier than it does. When studies have found what makes us happy is all those other things, you know, spending time with family, friendship, taking care of our health.

Starting point is 00:32:11 And a lot of times we'll make tradeoffs, you know, and sort of steal time away from those things so that we can earn more money. Yeah, well, there's that old, you know, money doesn't buy happiness unless you don't have any. You know, it's easy for someone with money to say, well, money's not everything. Well, yeah, it's not everything because you've got plenty of it or enough of it. But if you don't have enough of it, then you're going to be unhappy. Well, you know, I would agree with that. A certain amount of money, and research has backed this up, a certain amount of money does make people happier.

Starting point is 00:32:44 And in wealthier countries, people are generally happier than in poorer countries. And that makes sense. There's a lot of stress when you can't pay the bills or you don't know where your next meal is coming from. On the other hand, studies have found that our happiness does not rise in proportion with our incomes. They've done studies of lottery winners and Forbes 100 people who earn more than $100 million a year, and their happiness levels are just slightly higher than the average person's. So I guess it's that issue of keeping things in perspective and knowing that a certain amount of money will make you happy because you have to take care of your basic needs.

Starting point is 00:33:20 But beyond that, you really have to start thinking about what you value most in life. And I remember hearing, too, that people who don't have money claim to worry about money a lot, that they spend a lot of time worrying about not having enough money, and that if they only had money like rich people have money, they wouldn't spend so much time worrying about it. But when they talk to rich people, they worry about money money too. It's a different kind of worry, but they're still worried about money. Yeah. I spoke recently with a woman who manages a high net worth individuals and she says, you know, she'll get a client who's just sold a business for $250 million. And one of the things she says to them is you have problems you don't even know about.

Starting point is 00:34:09 You know, there's a whole other set of problems that comes with having that much money. So, you know, and I think that the most important thing is to never say, I can't afford this, but to say, I'm making different decisions. I mean, I drive a minivan that I bought, used, you know, that my kids have drawn all over in crayon. We got crayon melted into the carpet. It's very artistic. That's not my value. You know, one of my big values is sending my kids to college and having them graduate without a mountain of debt

Starting point is 00:34:33 so that they can choose any job they want without having to worry about how much they're making. And so instead of having a nice car, we put a little bit of money away every month in a 529 plan for our kids. So it's that kind of thing. And I actually have to, you know, I have this picture in my head of my three daughters graduating from college and choosing any job that they want, that they love, you know, choosing it because of their passion, not because it's for money.

Starting point is 00:34:56 And that kind of keeps me going when I would rather spend that 529 money on a massage because it reminds me that I'm wealthy in the way that's most important to me, that's most authentic to me. So Laura, I think people often get confused with all the conflicting advice about money. You know, there's one school of thought that you pay yourself first, that you take care of yourself first. So do you take care of yourself first and buy that nice car? Or do you do what this lady says and buy a crappy car and put the money in your kid's college fund? I mean, who do you believe? Well, it depends on what you value.

Starting point is 00:35:32 You know, what does it mean to take care of yourself? For me, what it means to take care of myself is to have enough money so that when I can't work anymore, because at a certain point you can't work anymore, I can take care of myself. That, to me, is a form of security, and security is important to me. So, you know, identify the value first, security, and then what are the things that are going to create that value? I think one of the hardest things about happiness is we mistake temporary pleasure for long-term happiness.

Starting point is 00:36:04 Long-term happiness is setting goals that are based on your values and achieving those goals. Researchers did a study, it's one of my favorite studies, where they put a quarter in the coin return of a phone booth, and they had people go in and make a phone call. People didn't know why they were making a phone call. Some people found the coin in the coin return, and some people didn't. After that, they asked people to rate the happiness of their entire life overall well the people who found the quarter rated their happiness of their

Starting point is 00:36:30 entire life much higher than the people who didn't so you know i think it it points up that importance of separating temporary pleasure from long-term happiness and long-term happiness is something you have to really sit down and think about and decide what it is you value. And in the book, I don't say, you know, you should really value a secure retirement. I never tell people what to value, but I go through exercises of how to figure out what it is you value. Well, that brings up a, well, and by the way, that study, I mean, how would you even come up with the idea for that study? And then to realize the results of that study are that finding a quarter can make your day a quarter. Isn't that incredible? Yeah, I guess it also points out the importance of building in

Starting point is 00:37:13 those moments during your day. Well, I remember the days when there were lots and lots of phone booths, and remember the people that used to go down the line of phone booths, you know, in the corn return thing and look for the quarter? And now we know why. They were just looking for happiness. But still, for so many people, in talking about money and values and everything, that towards the end of the line, there's so many people we hear about that are not going to have or who don't have enough money saved up for retirement. Yeah, scary. The scary thing to me, I think, is how many people,

Starting point is 00:37:49 it's just the whole concept of living within your means, which, you know, is a concept that's been around for ages. And it's a concept for me because my parents were born during the Depression. You know, so it was you don't get into debt, you don't get into debt, you don't get into debt. And the importance of what kind of family you come from in terms of your attitude toward money. But that's what I think scares me most about this economy, is so many people are using credit to live beyond their means,

Starting point is 00:38:15 and there comes a reckoning day, you know, so it's a problem. And so what's the advice? You know, a lot of older people live in that, if I knew then what I know now, I'd have a lot more money in the bank kind of mentality. But is it ever too late? No, I don't think so. I don't think it's ever too late. I mean, I think, again, you have to go, you have to start with your values. You know, what kind of life do you want to have?

Starting point is 00:38:42 What's most important to you? And then, you know, obviously you could say, well, I want the kind of life where I live on a yacht. That's not realistic given what you've done up until this point. But I don't think it's too late. And, you know, I do think you're going to see people working much longer than in the past. I took my kids to Disney World, and I was shocked how many people working in the park were obviously in their 70s.

Starting point is 00:39:09 And, you know, I sort of think, if anything, that's a good reminder for somebody in their 40s or 50s to get started. You know, even if it's $10 a week, $20 a week, something that goes automatically into a retirement account, you can do that. Anybody can come up with that amount of money. I mean, yes, it's helpful if you start at age 21, but there's no, it's never too late to start. I guess in many ways, and like you said, it depends on the family you come from, but in many ways it's human nature when you're younger to not think so much about when you get older and retirement and saving for that. And then when you get older, you look back and wish you had. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:46 I think what's the day of reckoning for a lot of people will be a harsh downsizing of their lifestyle. You know, where, you know, maybe they'll have a roommate or entertainment will be going to the library or, you know, the life they've been living now won't be as accessible in the future. I mean, that's sort of the first thing that happens when you don't save. The thing that most intrigues me is how to get people to feel that urgency, feel that call to action. I mean, that's why I try to explain some of the psychology of the brain and why our lower brains kind of work against us. Because, you know, the higher brain is where the logical, cognitive functions occur,

Starting point is 00:40:27 and that's where, you know, you think about things like saving for retirement, but the lower brain is in charge a lot of the time when it comes to, gee, I really want to buy that. So what would you say to someone, a younger person, who hasn't really thought about the future and hasn't really started to save for the future, how would you motivate them? You know, this is so interesting, because somebody asked me that about my book. They said, you don't have a call to action for people. And I thought, you know, living beyond your means,

Starting point is 00:40:55 or even living without saving at all, is similar to drug addiction in that you're not attached to reality. And I don't know if you can help somebody who's addicted to drugs until they hit bottom. You know, and the fear I have is that for a lot of people, that's what has to happen with their money. They have to hit bottom and not be able to afford their home anymore, not be able to afford the rent on their place and have to move into a smaller place. There is this assumption that you somehow can figure all this out for yourself. But I would imagine that a lot of people who have a pretty secure financial life got some help. You know, talk to somebody who is like a financial planner, and I know you talk about that,

Starting point is 00:41:39 the importance of getting some expert help, because not everybody is an expert in planning out their finances. You may have options you don't know about. One of the people I interviewed said she sat down with a financial planner, and she said, what would it take to send my three kids to college? And he said, you have to save $2,000 a month from now until they go to college. And she said, I just can't do that. You know, but to me that was unhelpful advice, because that's just, you know, now she's just throwing up her hands.

Starting point is 00:42:05 You don't know if your children will get scholarships. You don't know if they'll be able to work in high school. You don't know what loans will be available. I think there's a lot of options out there. So I think it's important to be optimistic about your options but also be realistic. Put that date on the calendar and say, I will see a financial planner by this date. Do you see that a lot with the people that you talk to that like a drug addict, they have to hit bottom before they have that epiphany? I found that with the

Starting point is 00:42:32 people I've spoken to. You know, a lot of people email me who have gone through bankruptcy and say, you know, I can't get a credit card. Well, what happened in between when you got that first credit card and when you declared bankruptcy? You know, for some people, that's what it takes is that bankruptcy to kind of shake them out of their fog. You know, so I guess, you know, my feeling is get this message out. You have to take care of yourself. And that should be a primary value. Well, it is interesting that something as important as money and your financial life, for many people, is so hard to get a handle on and really manage it well. One of the things psychologically is the brain is very good at storing words and semantic meaning and visual images, but we can't store visceral sensations

Starting point is 00:43:27 in our brains. So you can't remember. You can think about a painful event or a craving you had once, but you can't actually re-experience pain or create pain or create a craving in your head. You can't create the visceral sensation of it, and I think that's part of the problem. It's impossible to imagine what it would really feel like to be old and poor. We just can't do that. So you have to kind of look around you, you know, look at those people who don't have a lot and say, I'm not going to have that happen to me. Does it get to the point, do you think, where, okay, now you've got it, you've got it nailed? I mean, you know, listening to someone like you, you would think, okay, now you've got it, you've got it nailed. I mean, you know, listening to someone like you,

Starting point is 00:44:05 you would think, okay, well, she's probably got her financial life all in order. She's not lured by temptation. She doesn't, she's got her priorities, her values right. Is it easy for you? Is it easy for people who nail this? Or is it always going to be a struggle? Here's the thing. I wrote this book about basing your spending and your earning and your outlook on your values, and yet

Starting point is 00:44:32 I still find myself longing for the bigger house. I mean, I still find myself talking to my husband about, you know, could we expand the house? Could we do that? You know, and in the meantime, you're getting these home equity lines of credit, like offers in the mail, because you're a responsible person, you have decent credit, you get them from just about everybody. It's tempting to me. Well, it's such an important topic because it applies to every single person listening, that their financial life, their financial future is all their responsibility. And it's good to get some advice from someone who's really thought this through. Laura Rowley has been my guest. For many years, she was a journalist and columnist who wrote about money for Self Magazine and the Huffington Post,

Starting point is 00:45:17 and her book is Money and Happiness, A Guide to Living the Good Life. There's a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Laura. Now that people are getting back out and socializing, holiday parties will be coming up, and you'll be meeting new people if you attend. So will you be able to remember their names? A lot of us claim that we're not very good at remembering names. I think I fall into that group.

Starting point is 00:45:48 And according to memory expert Scott Hagwood, there are two big reasons why. And both of them can be overcome. First of all, when you say you're no good at remembering names, that self-talk reinforces the belief, so you just don't try. Start telling yourself you are good at remembering names, and you will automatically get better. And we don't remember a person's name when they tell us because we aren't paying attention. Usually we're thinking about what we're going to say next.

Starting point is 00:46:15 You can only think about one thing at a time, so the person's name never gets into your head. But if you really focus and pay attention, you will remember the name, especially if you tell yourself you're good at remembering names. And that is something you should know. Seeing how you like this podcast, there are probably like-minded people in your life who would also like this podcast. So tell one, two, maybe three of them to give a listen.

Starting point is 00:46:46 I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions,

Starting point is 00:47:27 and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce.

Starting point is 00:47:57 That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - What We’ve Lost to the Internet For Better or Worse & How Money Makes You Happy

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