Something You Should Know - What You Never Knew About Your Immune System How to Give Feedback Effectively

Episode Date: February 10, 2022

If you have ever been pulled over by the police for a traffic violation, you know it is not easy to talk your way out of getting a ticket. After all, you have no real power in that conversation. However, there is one way strategy that is likely more effective than any other in convincing the officer to NOT give you that ticket. Listen to find out what it is. Source: Frank Luntz author of Words That Work (https://amzn.to/37Ay5A8) Second only to your brain, your immune system is the most elaborate, intricate, complicated and fascinating system in your body according to Phillip Dettmer, science writer and author of Immune: A Journey into the Mysterious System That Keeps You Alive (https://amzn.to/35QaY6W). Have you ever wondered why you can’t get measles or many other illnesses more than once? Or how your immune system knows to attack bad cells while leaving the healthy ones alone? Why do some people’s immune systems go haywire? Did you know your immune system can kill you in under 5 minutes? Listen as Phillip answers all these questions any many more. Phillip also has one of the most popular science channels on YouTube. You can access it here: https://www.youtube.com/c/inanutshell When someone says they want to give you some feedback about something you have done, what they usually mean is they want to criticize something you have done. And no one likes to be criticized. However, when done right, feedback can be a very effective way to get people to change their behavior according to LeeAnn Renninger . Leann is an expert in behavior change, who has a fascinating TED talk on feedback (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtl5UrrgU8c). She co-founder of Life Labs Learning (https://lifelabslearning.com) and co-author of the book The Leader Lab (https://amzn.to/3rwtSYF). Listen as she explains how and why we often get feedback wrong - and how to do it so it has real positive impact.  It has often been said that women like a man who can make them laugh. And research seems to confirm the truth in that - not only in the U.S. but all over the world. Listen as I explain why this appears to be so universal. Source: The Mating Game: Why Men Want Sex & Women Need Love. (https://amzn.to/3oyFWH3).  PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Get a $75 CREDIT at https://Indeed.com/Something Check out Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://squarespace.com/SOMETHING to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Head to https://Go.Factor75.com/Something120 and use code Something120 to get $120 off!  M1 Finance is a sleek, fully integrated financial platform that lets you manage your cash flow with a few taps and it's free to start. Head to https://m1finance.com/something to get started!  Grab a Focus Freak Milkshake for 3.99 or less! And use offer code ENERGIZE to save $1 when you order on the Sheetz app!  To TurboTax Live Experts an interesting life can mean an even greater refund! Visit https://TurboTax.com to lear more. Find out how Justworks can help your business by going to https://Justworks.com To see the all new Lexus NX and to discover everything it was designed to do for you, visit https://Lexus.com/NX https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, it's tough to get out of a traffic ticket, but there's one thing that just might work. Then your incredible immune system. It's why you're alive. However, I think it's important to understand that the immune system is It's why you're alive. However...

I think it's important to understand that the immune system is not a trivial affair. For example, think of Ebola. Ebola is a very serious, horrible disease. It still takes four to five days to kill you. Your immune system can kill you in five minutes. Also, why women like men who can make them laugh. And getting someone to change by giving them effective feedback.

So when people talk about what they don't want somebody to do, there's a much greater impact when we talk about what we do want them to do. Hey, I'd like you to stop being late. If you flip that, we would say, I would like for you to be on time. From a neurological perspective, I want to talk about what I want rather than what I don't want. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy,

it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know.

Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. Are you a good driver? Most people consider themselves to be better than average. I like to think of myself as a good driver. And one of the criteria I use in making that determination is I don't get tickets. I haven't gotten a ticket in a long time. I don't get pulled over because I'm a fairly cautious driver. But if you do get pulled over by the police, you should really think before you say anything. When you understand who's in the power position, that being the police officer, you really only have one approach if you want to get out of

getting that ticket, and that is to appeal to the officer's compassion. Frank Luntz, author of the book Words That Work, says, Think about it. If you try to argue by saying you weren't going that fast or the radar gun is wrong, you'll always lose because you have no power in the conversation. But if you say, I'm sorry, you change the whole dynamic of the conversation. It may not always work. In fact, it often will not work. But police officers have something called officer discretion, meaning even though they pull you over for a violation, they are not required to give you a ticket.

They have some discretion as to whether or not to give it. And appealing to their compassion is about the only way to get a break. And that is something you should know. Most likely you have a pretty good idea of what your immune system is and how it works to protect you. But you're about to hear it explained in such a fascinating way that will teach you things you never knew about your immune system and give you a much better understanding of how it works. My guest is Philip Detmer. He is a science writer who has a YouTube channel with

over 14 million subscribers and like over a billion views. He has authored an incredible best-selling book called Immune, a journey into the mysterious system that keeps you alive. Hey, Philip, welcome. Thanks for coming on. Hi, thanks for having me. So in a nutshell, explain very simply, what is the immune system? Well, the immune system is like the second most complex biological system known to us after the human brain. It's like a super complex, multifaceted organ system that literally spans your whole body from like your toes to your nose.

It has like hundreds of like little organs, little bases all over your body. It has like its own highway system it has like two bigger organs that you probably don't know a lot about one is above your heart as big as a chicken wing it has like like trillions of cells every day you produce billions of new immune cells and billions die it is you it's like an integral part of your body. When people talk about their immune system, they talk about things like, you know, he has a really strong immune system. He never gets sick or, you know, somebody does take certain supplements and that that supposedly builds their immune system and makes it stronger. What's your take on all of that?

There's many people who think they never get sick because they take cold showers or like they do this or that, but like everybody gets sick. So that's literally not a thing. Actually, our immune systems differ a lot from person to person. And that makes sense if you think about it. So if all of our immune systems were exactly the same, what could happen on a species level is that like a specific bug came along and just like killed all of us. So our immune systems vary a little bit from person to person.

Maybe your immune system is a little bit better with dealing with viruses than mine. Maybe my immune system is a little bit better in dealing with like certain bacteria. But like through all these little differences, like on a species level, we can basically make sure that like no single thing can easily wipe all of us out.

But yeah, but like the immune system differs also a lot from our lifestyle choices. So like if you smoke, for example, you make your immune system weaker. If you don't work out, your immune system doesn't have as good of a time. Or if you're undernourished. But those are like lifestyle choices. And so I understand that there are things that you do that could suppress your immune system, but you also hear people talk about how, you know, if you take this supplement or if you eat this food,

that you will improve your immune system. So is that possible, or it's only there are things that make it worse, but there aren't things that make it better? The problem with the immune system and with immunology in general, like nowadays, is that, like, people never, like, learned how complex the immune system is andology in general, like nowadays, is that people never learned how complex the immune system is and how it works. And that gives many people the false impression. If you think about it, the way people talk about it, it's almost as if the immune system

is like a sort of energy field, you know, like a force that you can charge up and that can like wind down and like like if you put something in it like your energy immune system field gets stronger but that that's not how it works um the immune system is like a like a really complicated orchestra of like many many many billions and trillions of parts that work together specifically so the idea that you can like pop a pill or like buy an orange juice that has like immune boost on it and then like your immune system gets stronger, that's just like not how it works. People have the image that like the immune system needs to be strong and powerful and like run around and like smash enemies in the head, like they crack their skulls open.

But like the immune system is actually a very dangerous system for ourselves. So like every time your immune system is active, it does a little bit of damage, it like stresses your body. So you want your immune system not to be as strong as possible. You want it to be as balanced as possible. And boosting it in a sense is like a counter to that idea. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah, well, I've heard that, for example, sometimes when you're sick, the symptoms that you feel are not the sickness. The symptoms are the result of the immune system fighting the sickness.

It's your immune system that makes you feel the symptoms. So, for example, like if you have the flu and like your arms and it likes ache and you feel really bad and tired and knocked out, that's actually your immune system doing its job. It uses up a lot of resources and in fighting it does a lot of like collateral damage because it has to. It can't be as selective. I mean, in the end, it prefers to do a little bit too much damage instead of a little bit too less. See, that's really interesting because I think most people believe that the immune system is kind of this friendly gladiator that's by your side and fighting off all these terrible things to keep you healthy and safe.

And I guess to some degree it is. But in order to keep you safe, it has to be very tough. And sometimes it can be very, very powerful and even harmful. I think it's important to understand that the immune system is like not a trivial affair. For example, like, think of Ebola, like Ebola, like a very serious, horrible disease, it still takes like four to five days to kill you. And your immune system can kill you in like five minutes. Like if you have an allergic shock, that's your immune system, like misfiring very, very seriously so the immune

system has like much more power to like hurt and kill you many parts of the immune system actually have like no other job than calming down the immune system itself and just like measuring like how like is the amount of fighting we are doing is the reaction is that like just the right level is it too much is it too much? Is it too little? And if it's too much, can we calm down? Like your immune system has many built-in mechanisms that shut it off or like calm it down just to avoid that. If this is such a complicated system, you would think that there must be some kind of central command center somewhere that's keeping track of all that's going on.

But from what you're saying, it doesn't sound like it. Yeah, no. Oh, my God. That's one of the parts that makes the immune system so fascinating and so cool. The immune system is made up of cells. Cells are like little protein robots. They don't feel anything. They don't think. They don't have like a motivation. They're like robots that work through the magic of biochemistry,

which means they're really stupid. So like a single cell can't do anything. Somehow through evolution and through the wonders of biochemistry, cells have like found a way to do really complex things, although they individually are really dumb. And somehow through this way, our immune system usually finds exactly the right way and exactly the correct response to our threat. So help me understand, is the immune system strictly a fighter that goes after things and kills them? Or is the immune system also a healer? And my example would be, say, if I cut my finger and in time my finger heals and goes away and the cut goes away as if it had never happened. Can I thank my immune system

for healing that or not? You can thank your immune system that you didn't die. When you cut yourself, like certainly a few bacteria, some that are living on your skin or like from your kitchen counter, wherever you cut yourself, they will like invade the wound and your immune system basically reacts immediately to like kill those invaders as quickly as it can.

And if it couldn't do that, like then like develop an infection that would kill you sooner or later. When you cut yourself, you have immune soldiers that are living under the skin, that are just ready to defend you on a moment's notice. So you said a few moments ago that when you have the flu and you ache and you're all stuffy and your head hurts, that that isn't the flu, that's the immune system fighting the flu. But ache and you're all stuffy and your head hurts that that isn't the flu that's

the immune system fighting the flu but why does it do that what how does that fight the flu think about it like what a virus really is you have like this little tiny parasite that infects yourself it goes like into the cells themselves multiplies and like one virus becomes hundreds or even thousands and then it kills the cell or like it leaves the cell again it infects again maybe dozens maybe hundreds maybe thousands of new cells so like the the growth of viruses is just like super rapidly and like your body is pretty screwed in a sense so your immune system had to like come up with a way to react to like to an enemy like that and the virus infection like like the flu is like fairly serious actually so like what like you

somehow need to prevent like those viruses that multiply so quickly to just like take over like like your body in a few like hours or days. Your immune system does, it's like they release an enormous onslaught of chemicals that flood your body. And actually like in the case of many virus infections, you can like detect those chemicals like in the blood before you feel sick. So like your body is like giving up. And these chemicals do a lot of things.

So like, for example, they tell all of the civilian cells around like, hey, just like viruses are around, take care, be careful, slow down your natural processes, just be on watch. Or they tell your brain, maybe a fever would be a good idea, like heat up and create an environment that the virus doesn't like this is how cells do it they release like all of these chemicals so to like tell a lot of cells like what they need to do right now how they should react how they should like like support the work of the immune system and that is like and you feel that it's discomfort like a lot of that is like not great to you

which is also like like incidentally like like a good side effect because it forces you, you the actual living human. It forces you to calm down and seek rest and just like let the body do its work. I'm speaking with Philip Detmer. We're talking about the immune system and how amazing it is. Philip is author of a great book called Immune, a journey into the mysterious system that keeps you alive. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times,

we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll, of course, have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a

really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies

and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Philip, here's a question. When I get the flu or when I get a virus, I get it, the immune system goes to work, and then if I'm exposed to that virus again, I probably am not going to get it.

How do we know? How does the body know, well, you've had this before, and how does it protect me from getting it again? That's one of the most amazing things about the immune system. And it has, like, living memories. So in a nutshell, you have, like, two different defense mechanisms in your immune system. You have, like, two different immune systems. You have your innate immune system. Those are like your immune soldiers that like, they're ready at any time. There's an infection, they just like stream in and fight. And this, your second immune system is your adaptive immune system. You can imagine that like as your super

weapons, as like something a little bit more like stronger, but it has like a downside. It needs to gear up and like get ready. It takes about like five to 10 days to get ready. And when it gets ready, it like activates a lot of super weapons. Like you've probably heard of antibodies. Like those are parts of that. Throughout the infection, basically get intel from your innate immune system, determine which kind of enemy is attacking you they're like creating exactly the right weapon for that enemy like antibodies when that's fully activated

you get healthy again like it usually like kills the invaders and like ends the infection to do that it creates a lot of additional like super weapon cells and when the disease is over basically when you're good again most of these cells kill themselves because they're no longer needed but like some remain and they remain in your body for like years or maybe like if you're lucky for the rest of your life and they're just like the next time the exact same enemy infects you they are just like already there and they don't need those like five to ten days to get ready. That's usually enough to protect you against many diseases, hopefully like for a lifetime. What about this idea that we live perhaps in a too clean environment,

that kids need to roll around in the dirt, that we need more exposure to bacteria and things for our immune system to work properly. What about that? Is that true? What you're referring to is the hygiene hypothesis. It's sort of correct. It's a little bit different. So the science is still not completely in on all of that.

But the idea is it's probably more like you're not confronted with the right kind of germs when you are born like as a kid like your adaptive immune system is a little bit like a like a computer like the hardware is already there but like not all of the software is like ready in like the first years of your life your immune system is gathering data it's gathering like software to like boot up properly which is like the reason why kids get like sick more often so it's like their adaptive immune system is like not fully like activated yet so when you're like not confronted with like a lot of the like quote-unquote good germs that you should be confronted with then it doesn't

get to collect enough of the software information, not enough data. And what this can mean is that like then later in life, like your immune system might overreact to like bugs that it should be totally fine with. Like in these early days, your immune system learns like, oh, all this bacteria again. Oh, I know them.

Like, oh, like, yeah, they are fine. Like this bug can live here. Or like, I'll i just like quietly kill it but like no big deal and if it if it doesn't have this information this can lead to like allergies uh later in life so it's not so much actually that your immune system needs to like be it needs to fight and toughen up and it's way more that it like needs to learn like like who is harmless. And when it learns that, what are the kinds of things that, or when it doesn't learn that, what are the kind of things, the kind of reactions that people have? What typically are those? Yeah, for example, hay fever, or like certain kinds of asthma, or like certain food allergies,

it's like the list is endless. Just like the immune system basically needs to learn that certain stuff in our environment are just harmless and cool and like no big deal. And your immune system needs to learn which of those it can safely ignore. And if it doesn't learn that, then it will like react, like overly react to stuff that it shouldn't react to.

What about stress in the immune system? Does stress suppress the immune system and make you more susceptible to illness? Yeah, for sure. Which makes sense. Like when we evolved way back, stress was like a sign usually of like a more immediate danger. You should be stressed if a lion is running at you. That's like a perfect, perfectly reasonable moment to be stressed. But we're not really built for persistent stress. So it suppresses your immune system and in that sense makes you weaker, makes you more susceptible to disease.

So yeah, stress is bad. When I think of the immune system, I've always thought of it as a system that it just works throughout the body, but that it wasn't a thing or a place and there wasn't an immune system organ. But you say there is. One thing I find endlessly fascinating is one of the two big immune system organs, like the thymus. Most people have never heard of that ever and it's pretty incredible because it's like it's a little organ it's about the size of a chicken wing and it sits right above your heart and this little organ i call it like the murder university it's a training center for

like some of your most strong like some of your most aggressive and strong and like protective immune cells that you have these immune cells like they're called t cells these cells are like they are born in your bone marrow and they travel to this organ above your heart and then they get checked they get checked it's like hey are they working properly and especially like those cells could say maybe accidentally attack your body and if they do and if they don't pass the test just right they are ordered to kill themselves so out of 100 cells that like enter the thymus 98 are killed or like die and only like two out of 100 get to graduate and get to travel through your body and get to protect you and like like this organ, like the thymus, basically around the time,

like at the latest when we enter puberty, it begins shrinking. The older we get, the more it shrinks and the thymus cells basically turn into fat cells. And this is like one of the reasons why we are like more susceptible to disease as we get older. Because like this organ,

like this immune system university, it's closing department, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller and in just like 80s it's basically gone it's like i think like you have like one percent left and i find it so fascinating that we have like this organ that really has a lot to do with how healthy we are, how good we can defend ourselves, that like shrivels away, and nobody has like ever heard of it. I find it so cool. Like, yeah, I find this very interesting. And so say the word, because your accent, I'm a little, I'm not quite following, what's it called? The thymus. T-H-Y-M-U-S. H Y M U S. Talk for a bit about how the immune system fights cancer and how sometimes it wins and sometimes cancer wins.

Cancer can trick the immune system in ignoring it or even in protecting it. That's, that's more like how I put it. Like one of the things like cancer needs to accomplish to become like a cancer that's like a problem for you is to like at first it needs to avoid the detection of the immune system. Because like at any point in your life, you have like many, many cells inside your body that are like patrolling and are like checking for cancer.

Like one has a pretty amazing name. It's like the natural killer cell. And the natural killer cell and the natural killer cell what it does is basically it goes from cell to cell and just like it like says hi how are you doing like do you have like papers for me and it just like checks like like the papers of each cell and if it doesn't like what it sees it just like kills the cell so just like it you have these cells really looking for cancer cells and they succeed basically most of the time so immune system is pretty great at killing cancer cancer cells if they want to be like successful um they need to like avoid detection um and that's

what cancer does it like it it needs to trick your immune system to think everything is fine this is what cancer does. At first, it avoids detection. Then it builds up a city where no city should be built. And then it convinces parts of your body that everything is fine. It's pretty ingenious in a way. So cancer, when it works, it does a very good job in a sense, which is bad for us. But if cancer is so ingenious, why does it continue to grow and kill its host,

which ultimately kills itself? That doesn't seem ingenious. Cells are not conscious. They don't have thoughts. They don't have dreams. They don't have hopes. They don't have goals. And it's the same with cancer cells. They don't know. And maybe I can say that as a cancer survivor. It's like cancer cells are not evil. They're just stupid.

They do what like every living thing is like sort of like made to do. They want to survive and thrive. And they're just not realizing what they're doing. It will eventually lead to their own demise. Well, I've learned things today about the immune system I never knew. And I've always thought of it as being kind of mysterious, like it's kind of hard to put your finger on. But you've really helped to explain it and clarify exactly what the immune system does and how it operates. Philip Detmer has been my guest. The name of his book is Immune,

a journey into the mysterious system that keeps you alive. He's also got a YouTube channel all about science. It's really interesting. And there are links to the book and to the YouTube channel in the show notes. Thanks, Philip. Thank you for having me. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown.

I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life.

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events.

Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts in the pit of your stomach. Oh God, here it comes. Criticism. What did I do wrong now? You know what I mean. Often, feedback doesn't feel good. At all. But feedback, if done right, can be helpful, constructive, and instructive. It's that if done right part that's often missing.

Here to discuss the important topic of feedback is Leanne Renninger. Leanne is an expert in behavior change. She has a really interesting TED Talk on feedback. She's co-founder of LifeLabs Learning and co-author of the book, The Leader Lab. Hi, Leanne. Welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. So generally, I think people don't like feedback because it's usually just another word for criticism. People don't often tell me they want to give me feedback and then just tell me how wonderful I am.

And so I think people put their guard up when they know feedback is coming, and they're not really receptive to it. What's your take? Yeah, I think if it's not done well, then it's of course can do more damage than good. But I'd say done well, it's going to be one of the most important skills that a human can have. And so what does it mean to do it well? There's four parts to a good feedback message that we found from our research. And what it will contain, if I say it as simply as I can, is it's going to open with the person

knowing you're giving feedback. So we call that a micro yes. So I'd say like, oh, wait, can I share an observation I have? Or can I share a thought I have? Can I share my reaction to what I just saw or heard or what just happened? So that'd be part one, the picture like four building blocks. Then we're going to move to part two, which is naming the behavior that one saw. And that means not saying anything about the character of the person, but rather sticking with behavior rather than individual. So I noticed you showed up late to the past two team meetings

would be an example. And then the third block of the four is your impact statement. And that will be sharing why it matters. Because if we can't name the impact, then why are we even bothering to give that feedback? That would be an opener, like I'm mentioning it because or I'm bringing it up because right. And then the last of the four building blocks is opening again with a question. So we round that back off with saying, how do you see it? Or does it make sense that I'm wondering about this? And so those are the four building blocks.

And I can give more examples later, but they're the foundations. And so how does that inspire change? What we've got going on here is two things. One is that I'm respecting the other person's capacity at that moment to take in the feedback by saying, you know, would it be okay if I shared with you some thoughts? And I'm queuing up that this is a dialogue. It's not just me data dumping what I want to say here. So I'm tending to the relational side of things. At the same time, by naming the exact behavior I saw and the impact on me, what I'm doing

is I'm enabling change to happen faster because I know exactly what it is that the request is to be changed and why it will matter. So I'm dealing with the facts and also the motivation behind making those changes happen. As difficult as it sometimes is to have to listen to somebody's feedback, it can also be difficult to give it. It's kind of a weird position to be in. What are some of the things that people do wrong when they're giving feedback? One is that as soon as we start feeling nervous as a feedback giver, the tendency is to talk faster rather than slower. And that's not the right thing to do because what it does is it's going to be increasing

the other person's biological response as well. And what we want is to get into a space where both people can have a dialogue with each other. So my answer here would be, first of all, what people tend to do is talk too fast rather than going slower. And the second thing they tend to do is pretty quickly generalize. And that means that they'll move away from talking about behavior and move into character assessments. As an example here, what they'll do is they'll say, oh, you know, you're not being reliable. And what would be better there is to say, oh, you know, you're not being reliable. And what would be better there is to say, the way you just behaved is not consistent with what you said you would do. And the difference there is the moment I say, you're not being reliable, that's in my character. That's like who I am for good compared to a behavior lapse that I can easily change.

When I think back on times I've received feedback from people, it's not like they're telling me something I don't know, that I was unaware of. Oh, really? I did that? Oh, I had no idea. It's often things I'm very well aware of. And I suspect that one of the reasons for giving feedback about something isn't so much to alert someone what they've done wrong, because they may already know it. It's to tell them you noticed and it had an impact. Yeah. You just said the key word there. You said it had an impact. And I think that's going to be the most important part of any type of feedback statement. We call that the impact statement. So being able to say like, well,

listen, here's why this thing matters. Because often what's happening is the person is doing the thing and they're like, meh, you know, it's, I want to keep doing it that way. They're not realizing the impact it has on the other person. So the more skillful we can get with naming the impact statement, what I mean by that is I'm mentioning it because, or, you know, doing this does the following for me. The moment we could do that, we can see a very much an increase in the motivation from the other person to want to make the change, particularly if I'm able to articulate that impact statement in a way that really hits the logic button and is clear for the other person. One of the things that I never liked when I was an employee is when you would have those regularly scheduled meetings with your boss to go over your work.

And the problem with those kinds of meetings is the boss isn't going to come to those meetings time after time and tell you everything's great. They've got to find something to complain about, even though maybe things are okay. But it's kind of like forced criticism. If we're having the meeting, we've got to find something to correct. And sometimes maybe there isn't anything to correct. I think that's one of the hardest parts is the feeling like we want to,

we want as a feedback giver contribute and we want to be able to say something that makes us sound smart as the feedback giver. And in the end, my ultimate goal is to be able to enable positive behavior change rather than just to sound smart as the feedback giver. And I remember there's this story once I heard, I think it's, I can't remember which football team, I think it's the Dallas Cowboys, but I don't know much about football, where they were seeing a change very quickly in the players.

And it was because one of the coaches had shifted from, instead of reviewing what the team member had done wrong, they actually put together a highlight reels. And so this power of positive praise, so like, let's look to see what you did right, particularly you did right. Let's put words on it, what you did right. And then let's break that down

and see how we can transfer that to other situations in the future. That can have much stronger impact in that our brain is going to be able to remember those things that we've done well and latch onto them and reuse them much better than the feeling of negativity that comes from, ugh, I keep getting everything wrong in this case. What about when you give feedback? And I've had people give me feedback that there wasn't really much of a point to it. It was just criticism for the sake of criticism.

It had no real impact. It was more like, I just want you to know that I know that you did something wrong. Okay. Or it could even be praise. I mean, just praising for the sake of praise, which, you know, I guess that can feel nice. But is that good feedback just to point stuff out? I'll share a story here regarding that. When I was doing my doctorate research,

I arrived on the scene. I did this in Austria, and it was kind of difficult for many reasons, one of which was it was in a different language and two was I was new and I was coming into this lab of people who had been there for a long time. And one of the first assignments I was given was, I was told, go fix Bernward.

That's the name of a person. And the first thing I thought was, oh my gosh, like I don't even know how to answer to this request, go fix Bernward. And so the person who gave me this assignment said, well, just go talk with them and you'll see what needs fixing. So I meet Bernward and pretty quickly I do see what the person is probably referring to.

And I think to myself, okay, if the idea is fixing, I don't like that word, but if the idea is to give feedback, because maybe I can be helpful with that feedback, then let me think how to do this well. And what I was trying to do was to translate what my brain was saying. My brain was saying, wow, this person, Bernward, sounds grumpy, all the time sounds grumpy. Now that's not going to be helpful for me to go up to Bernward and say, hey, can I give you some feedback? Just notice that you always sound grumpy. That's not going to help him because he won't know how to not sound grumpy. If he did know how to not sound grumpy, he probably would do it more often. And so to get to the point around how do we help people, I think what's really important here is

that we're able to find a way to articulate what it is exactly behaviorally that we're seeing or noticing. And so in this case, what I was noticing is that he would land each sentence with a downward beat. So for example, I would say, hey, how's your day going? And he'd say, good. How about your day? And so that intonation, that landing of that just came across to me as, oh, he's mad at me. And so my attempt with giving him feedback was to say, hey, I've noticed that when you, and I did a little bit of warmup there to say, can I share something? It's a little awkward for me to share it, but I was hoping maybe it's helpful. And he said, yes. And then I said,

I noticed that you land each sentence. And for me, when I hear it, it sounds like you're angry. And then I explained a little bit more what happens then, then I start to think I don't want, you know, I don't tell my full ideas and so on. To that, he said, well, I'm not, I'm're angry. And then I explained a little bit more what happens then. Then I started to think I don't want, you know, I don't tell my full ideas and so on. To that, he said, well, I'm not, I'm not angry. And there I said, oh, there again, you did the downward V. And again, I just want to share the impact it has on me. So this is the story can go on a little bit longer as to how we resolved it. But what I wanted to share here is he had never been told what it was that was coming across as grumpy. And whether or not I was right or wrong with my assessment of what caused that perception, it definitely was something he could at least work with. And so my answer would be, yeah, we need to name specifically the thing that's bothering us in behavioral terms if we truly want to make impact.

How did you resolve it? How did you get him or did you get him to change? And how did you get him to change? Yeah, well, this is a sweet part of the story. He's, by the way, giving me permission to share this story. It started off with some very sweet attempts where, as he would talk with me in particular, he would lift the ends of his words. So he'd be like, so how's your day going today, Leanne?

And it was an exaggerated attempt. Now, suddenly we had an injection of humor into the situation. But what I did notice is that over time with his other colleagues too, people could see that he was making more of an attempt. Now it's not, he doesn't have to follow everything other people would want, but what I was hoping for in my care for him over time, like truly, I started really hoping that he could improve his relationships, is that there'd be at least an understanding from his side, oh, the person might be thinking that I'm mad at them. I don't want that. And so the resolving of this situation was for him to actually say more often, oh, I like what you're saying. And so he do's intonation, I like what you're saying. And so he'd do his intonation. I like what you're saying. I'm just wanting to think more about it, right? So he could add more intention statements and articulate more what he was thinking rather than letting people interpret it through his downward intonations.

That brings up another point about feedback is that sometimes, I can think of many times where it's sometimes easy to dismiss it because it's just one person's opinion. You might think he goes down on his sentences and that makes him sound grumpy, but no one else has ever said anything to me about it. So maybe I'll just dismiss this. Yeah, I think that's a fair point, right? So if the person wants to try to understand a data set, that's totally fair and they should do so. What I want to do is build a foundation for them to at least be able to say in this data point of one, I'm noticing this. And if I'm going to maintain a relationship with, in this case, me or whoever it might be, I want to try to improve that relationship. There's one thing I want to add though, and that is the danger in invoking what we call the royal we.

So we have noticed that you or I've heard from other people that you or I continually hear that you. That type of feedback is not going to land because it's going to immediately pull up the defensiveness as social creatures. We really, of course, don't like the idea that other people might be talking about us. And so my suggestion would be to not triangulate. Triangulate means that I'm going to say what somebody else said about the other person. So instead of just a one-to-one relationship, I'm pulling in other people. And instead, try to just name my own observations. And if the person doesn't change based on that, that's okay. I can just keep naming the impact on me over time. Right. Because it's very common. And I think for people to use the royal we, and you know, it's not just me that's noticed,

you know, other people have noticed this too, because you think that that's kind of bringing consensus to the table here. But what you're saying is it really just creates defensiveness. Yeah. There's a technical term for this called the quantum Zeno effect. Sounds very fancy. But the idea here is I don't want to actually hinder the possibility of change within the other person. What I want to do is I want to enhance the possibility. I want to catalyze their urge to change. And so often we think, oh, when we invoke the royal we, that's going to add more fodder to the fire.

Are there other things besides feedback that work to get people to change their behavior? Well, I like this question. Yeah, so what comes to my mind is that I want to create an environment that makes it more possible for that person to enable change to happen. So on the one front, what I want to do is I want to be able to ask questions that will inspire insight for the other person. And what I mean by that is I could tell somebody what to do. And we call that stepping into telling mode, right? Or I have a choice. I could step into what we call questions mode. So Q-step, step into questions mode. And with the questions mode, what's happening is I move a lot more molecules in their brain.

Because instead of saying, like, I think you should do X, Y, Z, if I say to them, well, what do you see as your options? What do you think would happen if you do it this way versus if you do it that way? And the more molecule change I can have happen in their brain, the more likely we lay down a neural network that will enable that change to stick for the future. And so I'm thinking constantly about, you know, as a behavioral scientist, I'm thinking about how can I basically help neurons grow faster within their brain? And the best way I can do that is to help them come to the insights themselves. Rather than tell them. Yeah.

And I want to do that with an authenticity there. I'm not trying to manipulate insights themselves. Rather than tell them. Yeah. And I want to do that with unauthenticity there. I'm not trying to manipulate people here. In the end, I might be wrong about what I'm thinking is the best solution. But through that dialogue of me saying, okay, wait, what questions should you be asking yourself? Number one. Number two, I want to ask them, what do you see as your options? Number three, I might ask you, what does success look like for you in this situation? And then I want to maybe move them into action and say, well, what do you see as the next steps? And then from there, I can be like, okay, and how can I be helpful to you? What do you see as the obstacle? There's so many different great questions we could be asking to help move their brain in a different direction. And I don't care where their brain lands. I just want movement.

That's the first step to great change. Well, it does seem that if you really want to give feedback so that people change, you got to be really careful how you say what you're going to say. Otherwise, people are just going to shut down, clam up, and nothing will happen. In fact, you could make things worse. I think there's something really important in the ways of wording things that people often neglect. And one of the things that I was really surprised by when we were doing this research on feedback is we call this positive reaches. So when people talk about what they don't want somebody to do compared to talking about what they do want somebody to do, there's a much greater impact when we talk about what they do want somebody to do, there's a much greater impact when we talk about what we do want them to do. So if I name something like, hey, I'd like you to

stop being late. If you flip that to the positive reach, reach for something rather than away, we would say, I would like for you to be on time. And if you look at that from a neurological perspective, if I keep emphasizing the word late or don't eat the cookies, um, stop being so distracting. I'm taking it. I'm using the words over and over again that I don't want them to do compared to if I flip it and say what I want them to do. So be on time, be proactive, whatever it might be. I want to talk about what I want rather than what I don't want. You know, I've always wondered, like, you tell me if that's real research. I remember hearing someone say, like, when someone goes to the store and you say, don't forget to get the milk or don't forget to get the bread,

it's better to say, remember to get the bread. And that sounds right, but is there real research to support that? Yeah. I mean, even if you just look from an intuitive perspective, right, you're saying it sounds right. Just simply think about what were the tracks were laying down on the brain from a neural circuitry perspective. The thing that we repeat is the thing that's going to be remembered. And so if you look at the research around this, it's, if I say, don't eat the cookies, all I'm repeating over and over again is cookies, cookies, cookies.

And instead of saying, eat fruit instead, eat fruit instead, fruit, fruit, fruit. So even on just a simple gut check level, we can say that makes sense. And it also lines up also with what research says as well. What about asking for feedback? Is that a good way of getting it? Is that just go out and ask people, you know, how did I do, rather than wait for them to decide whether or not to tell you what they think. So another tip I would have in general for everyone is a notion of push versus pull regarding feedback. And often what happens is after we've done something, we're waiting for people to give us feedback, and we call that push feedback. So someone's going to push their feedback onto us. And the suggestion I would have is to always be a puller

of feedback. What I mean by that is you proactively go to people and say, Hey, how did I do there? I really want to learn. Can you, can you name something you think I did well and something you think that I could optimize? What ends up happening there is that by being the puller of the feedback, you become the controller of it. So even if a person says something negative, or even let's say, you know, you did something wrong. If I come up and say like, Hey, what'd you think? Suddenly I'm in a position of power because I'm coming in with a learning orientation rather than a punitive orientation. Like, Oh, I did. I know I did that wrong. And so to be the puller of feedback means

having that habit. And my suggestion to listeners would be even right now, after you're done listening to what I'm saying, grab your phone. And if you have the bravery to do this, text three different people and simply say to them, hey, I'm looking to learn. And what I'd like for you to do is to share three words that come to your mind when you think about me. And I'd like for them to be three things you think that are positive about me. And then one thing you think I could optimize. And it's really interesting when you start seeing these words coming in from your friends, because over time you start to see patterns in what's happening. And weirdly, because you were the one who asked for the feedback, you pulled the feedback, you're in control. And it feels almost like, oh,

I'm an experimenter trying to learn. And whether or not I agree with them doesn't matter, because what I'm seeing is just data points. And with that, I can decide what I want to do with that, with the data I've collected. Well, I think this is such an important topic to discuss because everybody at some point has to give feedback and is going to get feedback. And understanding the dynamics of it, how it works and what's effective, I think makes it a much more worthwhile exercise that has some real impact. I've been speaking with Leanne Renninger. She is an expert in behavior change, co-founder of Life Labs Learning, author of the book The Leader Lab, and she has a really interesting TED Talk you can see online about much of what we've been talking about on the topic of feedback.

There is a link to her book and to the TED Talk in the show notes. Thanks, Leanne. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. In a survey of women in 33 different cultures around the world, women universally agreed that they are attracted to men who can make them laugh. Why? Well, there seem to be two reasons, according to researchers Alan and Barbara Pease, who are authors of the book Why Men Want Sex and Women Need Love. Men who can tell a joke and have a sense of humor are accorded a higher status by other men.

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