Something You Should Know - What You Should (and Shouldn't) Do to Your Skin & How to Get Along Better with People at Work

Episode Date: May 28, 2018

Does having more sex make a couple happier – or is it just that happier couples have more sex? We begin this episode by looking at which is the cause and which is the effect. (http://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2015/may/more-sex-does-not-lead-to-happiness.html) You likely know the importance of staying out of the sun and using sunscreen when you are in the sun. But proper skin care involves much more than that. As we begin the unofficial start of summer, Dermatologist and plastic surgeon Anthony Youn, M.D., explains some important facts about skin care you may not know and offer simple and practical tips to keep your skin looking and staying younger. Dr. Youn is the author of the book The Age Fix (https://amzn.to/2GTve5o), he is host of the podcast, The Holistic Plastic Surgery Show (http://www.dryoun.com/podcast/) and his website is www.dryounonline.com  Here’s an interesting physics question: Let’s say you have to get from point A to point B in the pouring rain. Will you get wetter by running or walking there? I’ll reveal the answer and explain the science. (http://gizmodo.com/5970075/do-you-get-less-wet-walking-or-running-in-the-rain) Have you ever had trouble getting along with people at work? It is a universal problem. And a big part of the problem is that people have different working styles. Some of those styles work well together – some clash. When you understand what those different styles are and how they work with each other, you can have a happier more productive work environment. Kim Christfort is an executive with Deloitte, an accounting and consulting firm, is co-author of the book Business Chemistry: Practical Magic for Crafting Powerful Work Relationships (https://amzn.to/2IRgE0a). She joins me to reveal how to better get along with and work with all the people at work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, on Something You Should Know, does having more sex make couples happier? Or do happy couples just have more sex? Find out which is the cause and which is the effect. Then, a top dermatologist explains things you may not know about taking care of your skin. One of the really popular things right now is sunscreen spray. And I cringe when I see a parent spraying this on their children because now these kids are breathing in these huge clouds of chemicals into their lungs. Plus, if you have to get somewhere in the rain, is it smart to run or will that make you wetter? And if you have trouble

getting along with certain people at work, you're about to get some excellent advice. We all have situations where sometimes we click and sometimes we clash. So rather than me thinking, gosh, that guy is such a jerk, I can say to myself, that guy is a driver and he loves to debate and he loves to be direct and it's not personal. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life.

I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know is all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes.

Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily.

And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something You should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome. I have a little mystery on my hands.

Maybe you can help me with. The last episode of this podcast, when it was published a few days ago, we had this big jump in the number of listeners who downloaded and listened to the program. And over time, over the last year and a half or so, we've had a nice steady increase in listenership. But as of the last episode, there was a big jump that day and the day after that. And I don't know why. I've looked on Google to see if maybe somebody wrote about the podcast or recommended it or wrote a review or something, and I couldn't find anything. So if you are listening to this podcast and you started listening with the last episode,

drop me a note if you have a moment and tell me why, what prompted you, what you read or saw or whatever that prompted you to listen, so maybe I can figure out what happened. It would just be a nice mystery to solve, and it is a nice mystery to have. My email address is mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. First up today, we're going to talk about sex and happiness. You've likely heard from books and self-help experts that increasing intimacy can make a couple happier. Simply put, having more sex will lead to more happiness. Well, maybe and maybe not. There's something called reverse causality, and that may explain the relationship between intimacy and happiness,

according to research from Carnegie Mellon University. What they found in surveying couples is that happier couples have more sex. In other words, it isn't the sex that's making couples happier, it's happiness that's causing couples to have more sex. And in fact, simply having more sex did not make couples happier, in part because the increased frequency led to a decline in wanting for and enjoyment of intimacy. So instead of focusing on increasing the number of intimate encounters, couples may be better off to work on creating an environment that sparks their desire

and makes the intimacy they have more fun. And that is something you should know. Of course you know, everyone knows, that it's important to take good care of your skin. But what does that mean exactly? And could you be doing things to your skin that you think are good for it that maybe aren't? Here to offer some sound advice is Dr. Anthony Yoon, Y-O-U-N. Dr. Yoon is a dermatologist and board-certified plastic surgeon. He is the host of the podcast, The Holistic Plastic Surgery Show. He's an award-winning author of the book The Age Fix and an anti-aging expert. He is considered one of the nation's foremost experts in looking younger with and without surgery. Welcome, doctor.

Thank you. It's my pleasure. So what should I know about my skin that maybe I don't know about what it is what it does what it doesn't do what i should do give me some education here well our skin is the largest organ of our body and what we're learning more and more is that our skin shows sometimes as a first actually organ to show when things maybe aren't doing so well on the inside. And so dermatologists and even plastic surgeons are now realizing that the inner workings of our body, whether it's issues with our gut, with our hormones, even with other organs like our brain, can actually present itself as problems with our skin. So give me some examples of things that would present themselves

on the skin that are really reflective of what's going on inside. Yeah, a really good example is adult acne. So when we think of acne, we think of teenagers and hormones and developing these pimples during the adolescent time. But there are so many adults that deal with acne in their later years, when they're in their 30s and 40s and even potentially older. And what a lot of times we're finding that acne is, it's a sign of underlying inflammation. Inflammation caused by many different factors. One, and one thing that I recommend for my patients if they say, hey, I'm an adult, I've got some acne, what should I do? The first thing I ask them is, do you drink dairy? Do you eat dairy? Dairy can be very inflammatory to our bodies, the casein in it, the lactose, and that is one of the things that we find is if you take people

off of dairy, quite often as adults, they find their acne improves. In terms of the basics of skincare, is the advice that we've heard for decades now of stay out of the sun, use a sunscreen, is that pretty much still conventional wisdom? It is, but there's more to it than just that. So definitely staying out of the sun is super important because the UV rays will definitely damage our skin. But there's more than just applying whatever sunscreen. There are a lot of sunscreens out there and sunblocks that can actually be potentially harmful. So for example, there is a product in sunscreen called oxybenzone.

And this is known to be a hormone disrupting agent. It's in about 600 or more sunscreens available in the United States and that's something that I do recommend my patients try to avoid. There are so many other sunscreens like zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, avobenzone that don't necessarily impact the hormones and that are in my opinion much safer. So number one you know sunscreen is super important try to use an SPF over 30. That's what the American Academy of Dermatology recommends. But on top of that, watch what's actually in the sunscreen and make sure that if it

does contain oxybenzone, it may not be the one you want to purchase, especially for your children. And then just a final quick tip, one of the really popular things right now is sunscreen spray. And that's something, you know, I tell you, I go to the beach and I cringe when I see a parent spraying this on their children, because those sunscreens may contain oxybenzone. And now these kids are breathing in these huge clouds of chemicals into their lungs because it's aerosolized. And that's something I just would not, not recommend. I want to get you to comment on something. I was pitched an interview I did with a guy,

and I don't, it's been a while, so I don't remember the details. But he made the assertion that sunscreens really didn't do much. And he pointed to the fact that as sunscreen use has gone up, so have incidents of skin cancer. And that sunscreen is not doing what people say it does. Well, I think the issue that we have, and you can see that sunscreen obviously works and that if you go out in the sun and you don't apply it, you get burned very quickly. But people are not necessarily applying enough. And that's one of the big things that the dermatologists will talk about is, you know, you do need to apply, I think it's two tablespoons for your body surface area, depending on how big you are. If you're a large male, you need more than that.

And you need to cover everything. And so I think that it's more of a multifactorial thing. I don't think that you can say, oh, more people are getting skin cancer, so sunscreens must not work. Well, there's a lot more to skin cancer than just when and how much sunscreen you put on you know there are other environmental factors there are genetic factors you know it's interesting we even find there are even studies that show that if if you intake if you take a lot of antioxidants both by mouth or you apply antioxidants to your skin you can decrease your risk of getting a sunburn.

And so we do know that UV radiation does impact the DNA of our cells. And we do know that that can eventually lead to skin cancer and that obviously sunscreens can help protect against it. But I don't think it's quite that simple, unfortunately, of saying, well, because people are getting a lot of skin cancers, it must not work. You know, there's so much more, so much more there. Let's talk about, because I think it's everyone's concern that as they get older, they look older, which, you know, seems to make the most sense. And as you get older, you should look older. But there is this fascination with trying to stay young and look as young as possible. So what helps and what doesn't help? I imagine staying out of the sun helps, but what else besides that is important to looking younger? So I think that when you look at trying to slow

down the aging process, obviously, just like you said, you can't stop it. None of us can stop it, but you can do a lot of things to slow it down. Anything from starting out with what you eat to treatments that we can do in an office. So, for example, if you start out with what you're eating, the first thing you want to do is decrease your intake of sugar, okay? And so, what do we mean by that? Well, we know that sugar prematurely ages the cells of our skin. And it does it in two factors. Number one is inflammation. You know, I mentioned that earlier with adult acne. But number two, there's a process called glycation where the sugar molecules will actually bond to the collagen fibers in your skin and deform them.

So we do know that excessive intakes of sugar can definitely prematurely age us. So that's the one thing that I would encourage people to try to decrease, is decrease the amount of sugar, switch your soda pop to kombucha or other types of healthier drinks. Second thing is to add more colorful fruits and vegetables to your diet. So we do know antioxidants are these amazing substances that basically fight off free radicals. Free radicals are damaged cells that are damaged molecules that will damage the cells of our body by stealing their electrons. And antioxidants basically fight them off and neutralize them. And the reason, one reason why

people say, hey, eat the rainbow, eat colorful fruits and vegetables is because those colors in those different fruits and vegetables are pigments, and those pigments are actually antioxidants, and they fight that aging process. So when you start from what you put in your mouth to very simple things, decrease the amount of sugar you eat and add additional fruits and vegetables, that can have big impacts as you age with slowing down that process. And when you decrease the amount of sugar that you eat, does it reverse what's been done or you just, it stops getting worse from here? There's no studies that will show how much reversal it can do. I think it will improve your health overall. So in that way, you may look at it that way. But it's not going to necessarily make age spots go away or wrinkles go away.

It's going to be more of slowing down the process, you know, versus reversing. Now, there are things we can do to reverse, and I'll mention those to you today, but the act of changing your diet can definitely improve your health, and that will show in your skin. You know, and I have had patients who change their diet, and you look at them and go, wow, you're glowing. It doesn't make wrinkles go away, but they just look healthier, more vibrant. Their skin looks brighter.

I'm speaking with dermatologist and plastic surgeon Dr. Anthony Yoon. He is author of the book The Age Fix, and he is also host of his own podcast you can listen to wherever you listen to podcasts, and it is called The Holistic Plastic Surgery Show. People who listen to Something You Should know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to, called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at

the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Dr. Yoon, let's talk about reversing the effects of aging, if that's possible. What can people do? All right, so reversing, very simple things. One thing you want to do is exfoliate your skin regularly. So exfoliating basically means that you are removing the upper layer of dead skin cells.

And so when we're young, our skin turns over every six to eight weeks. So when we develop a new skin cell in the base of our skin, and by the time it kind of goes, divides and goes up to the surface of the skin, and it gets left off, it's about six to eight weeks. However, as we get older, Mike, our skin, that turnover starts to slow down. And it takes anywhere from 10, 12, even 14 weeks for our skin to turn over. And as you can imagine, that causes this clumping up of dead skin cells on the surface. And that's one reason why, as we get older, our skin feels rougher, it feels drier, it doesn't look as vibrant. Well, by exfoliating your skin, by removing that upper

layer of dead skin cells, and you can do it mechanically or chemically, by removing that upper layer of dead skin cells, it actually will not only create an immediate effect of smoothing the surface of your skin, but it sends a cellular signal to the deeper layers of the skin to cause it to turn over more quickly. So that's something that if you exfoliate regularly two to three times a week, if you've got quote-unquote normal skin, maybe once a week if you have sensitive skin, that can get your skin looking healthier and more vibrant, sometimes within just a few weeks. The second thing that I would recommend as far as something you can do at home is a retinol cream. And a retinol cream, if you had to pick one anti-aging cream that is the best of all

it is retinol you know it's known to reverse aging to tighten skin to reverse age spots and even reverse early pre-skin cancer so if you buy one anti-aging cream do a retinol and apply it at night before you go to bed can you make some recommendations, at least in general, of products that work? Because I imagine there's an awful lot of products that can exfoliate your skin and there's probably a lot of retinal creams. I wouldn't know where to begin. Some people do like a clarisonic type device, like a handheld electronic device with a rotating brush on it. Those can work really well to mechanically exfoliate your skin. In my practice, I usually recommend exfoliating scrubs where basically it's almost like sand particles, but they're usually much finer and you can scrub your face with it for maybe 30 seconds to help basically rub off that upper layer of dead skin cells. I have one on my website, dryoononline.com, that's natural, that has natural and organic

ingredients that we recommend. Another way, though, that you can do it is you can go and do at-home chemical peels. They're very mild chemical peels that a lot of companies have. Some people will do it with microdermabrasion in a dermatologist's office, that type of thing. For retinol, really the vast majority of skincare companies have a retinol-based cream. And usually they'll actually say on the actual cream that it's retinol. So just look for that. I recommend looking for products that contain natural and organic ingredients. I'm also all about cruelty free. So look for those types of seals. Once again, I have my own product line, Yoon Beauty, where we do have a nice retinol moisturizer. But once again, you can find lots of them at the drugstore too.

Is there such thing as a safe tan or is if you tan your skin, you're damaging your skin? The only safe tan is one that comes out of a bottle, is a fake tan or spray tanning. So every time you tan the skin, the skin gets darker and it's because of the damage to the melanin by the UV radiation. And so in general, the less tan you are, the better. But a caveat to that, Mike, is I do believe that getting some sun is therapeutic. I'm not a dermatologist that has white, pale skin that never gets any sun. I think that's excessive. I do think we need to also consider it from a holistic perspective in that there are studies that show that going out in nature, getting the sun on your face, getting your feet

in the sand can improve not only your moods, but can even potentially improve your health. I often hear commercials on the radio and TV for non-surgical, what seem like non-surgical facelifts. So talk about that. What's that about? Well, I think these, it depends. And it really comes down to expectations. So one of the things that I recommend for Well, I think these, it depends. And it really comes down to expectations. So one of the things that I recommend for patients, I get a lot of patients ask me, Dr. Yoon, what is the best bang for my buck? I want to turn back the clock. And yeah, I don't, you know, I understand that I've got to eat better. I got to put stuff on my skin, but what can I do? One of the things that we recommend is called IPL, intense pulse light treatments. And it's

similar to a laser, but what it does is it targets brown spots, sunspots, age spots, liver spots, multiple names for the same thing, to really lift that pigment and get rid of it. There are also new treatments that we can use to definitely tighten the skin. There's one called Ultherapy. So somebody says, hey, look, I want to tighten the skin of my neck, but I don't want an operation like a facelift. Ultherapy is a treatment that uses ultrasound energy to heat up the deep skin to get that skin, the collagen, to tighten up. The important thing to realize, however, with a treatment like, let's say, ultherapy, is that you may get some mild tightening of the skin, but it's not a facelift, you know? And so, it really, expectations are super key. And a lot of the technology we also find, it works different in

different people so somebody might do an old therapy and say wow like i really got a lot of tightening out of it another person does the exact same procedure from the exact same doc using the exact same settings and their skin doesn't tighten up nearly as much and so when we go into these non-surgical treatments yes a, a lot of them can work, but you really got to be careful in making sure that your expectations are in line with what they can do and understand that there's definitely more individual variation. If I do a tummy tuck and I say, okay, I'm going to remove a diameter of 12 centimeters of skin from you, then that's what we're going to remove. It's measurable. It's defined. But if we do a laser treatment to the tummy, well, we can't tell you how much it's going to tighten up.

It really comes down to how your skin reacts to it. What about Botox? Where are we with that? I mean, people were talking about that a lot for a long time. Is that still popular? Well, where we are now is that it still is the most popular cosmetic treatment probably in the history of the world. So according to the Aesthetic Society, It still is the most popular cosmetic treatment probably in the history of the world. So according to the Aesthetic Society, last year there were nearly 5 million people that underwent Botox injections.

And those numbers are actually continuing to rise. The issue that we have, and the other thing that's really popular now, are filler injections. So there's two injectables that are super popular, Botox being number one. And what that does is it weakens muscles. So we have certain wrinkles of our face that are created by muscles that are flexing and crinkling. And those are typically the wrinkles of the upper face, like the forehead wrinkles and the crow's feet and then the frown lines between the eyebrows. Botox is a good treatment for that because it causes those muscles to stop contracting and weaken and then smooth those wrinkles out. Fillers are used to fill in lines.

And those are where people really go wrong because that's when you see Hollywood, you see somebody come in and their face looks all puffed up and unnatural and stiff because people are taking this idea of adding volume and they're taking it to the nth degree. They're going nuts with it. And that's where people have to really back off. I mean, a little filler may be nice, but a lot of filler makes you look plastic. And what is this filler made of?

What are you sticking in your body? Yeah, there are a number of different kinds. The most common one is called a hyaluronic acid. And this is not an acid that burns you. It's actually a moisturizer of our skin. And it's synthesized basically to last anywhere from six months up to a couple of years. The way I describe it to my patients, it's like liquid skin. One huge reason why, if you're going to do that, that I recommend is we do have an antidote to it. We have something we can inject

into that area that can literally melt it away within, sometimes literally within seconds. Great. Well, it seems there's a lot we can do to keep our skin looking good, both from the inside and the outside. If you want kind of a summary of some of the things I'd recommend, decrease your intake of sugar, eat colorful fruits and vegetables, use a retinol cream, exfoliate regularly, and then look into maybe IPL treatments and Botox still, Botox still is king. I mean, really, you do it judiciously, you do it conservatively and it can really make big impacts on your appearance. Dr. Anthony Yoon has been my guest.

He's a dermatologist, board-certified plastic surgeon. His podcast is called The Holistic Plastic Surgery Show, which you can find wherever you listen to podcasts and there's a link to it in the show notes. And his website is dryounonline.com. It's D-R-Y-O-U-N, dryounonline.com. And the name of his book is The Age Fix.

There is a link to that as well in the show notes. Thank you, Doctor. Thanks, Mike. Appreciate it. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS

and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture.

Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. It's human nature to gravitate towards people we like and who are like us. But when you go to work, you're put together with and have to work with people you may not like, who are nothing like you, and who you don't necessarily get along with at all. So what do you do?

Well, that's what Kim Christford is here to discuss. Kim Christford works for Deloitte, the accounting, consulting, and advisory firm, and she is co-author of a book called Business Chemistry, Practical Magic for Crafting Powerful Work Relationships. Hi, Kim. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. I've always been interested and curious about how people, you know, get along or don't get along at work because of the somewhat random nature of how people are thrown together in a workplace and told to, you know, get along or don't get along at work because of the somewhat random nature of how people are

thrown together in a workplace and told to, you know, get along and work together. Is that the core of what you're addressing here? That is the essence of it. And in fact, that's why we chose the name Business Chemistry. This is really about the ways that people connect. And what we were trying to do with the system and with the book is make that more of a science so that we're not guessing about how to connect with different individuals. We really have a sense of where they're coming from, how they process differently, so that we can connect more effectively. And as obvious a question that this may seem, what's the difference between business chemistry and just plain old chemistry you create with people

outside of work? There are going to be a lot of similarities because humans are humans, but in a business context, you're dealing with specific things like decision-making and risk taking and whether you want a spreadsheet or whether you want PowerPoint or whether you want to brainstorm or whether you want to work alone in an office. And so what we've done is we've translated some very universal human tendencies into a work setting. And in every work setting, there are different people with different personalities, different styles, different everything. So what do you do with that? How do you begin to make this all work together? I think what's challenging about working style is that oftentimes we forget that there are differences, even though what our research shows is there's

four distinct styles and they're in about equal proportions, so 25% across each of them. And yet, in a work environment, you sort of default to the golden rule and you sort of assume that people are going to want to do things the same way that you do. And that leads to a lot of unnecessary conflict, because instead of me saying, okay, you're a guardian and I'm a pioneer, and that's why we're talking about this differently, I'm saying to myself, gosh, this guy just doesn't get it. Like, why isn't he able to pick up on this? Or why can't he make decisions quickly? Or why won't he take risks? And so the first thing we were trying to do with this is to really raise awareness around the fact that these styles do exist and how to recognize them quickly in a workplace. So what are those four styles?

So you have the pioneer that's all about possibilities and blue sky thinking. They're the big ideas people. You've got their opposites, the guardians, which are really about stability. Let's get the details right. Let's focus on tried and true. Then you have the drivers, which are all about challenge, very analytical, very goal-oriented. And then you have their opposites, the integrators, which are really about connection, both connection between people, but also connecting ideas. And everybody, by the way, is a mixture of all four of these types, but most people tend to be characterized by one or maybe two of them.

And in a perfect world, is it better for people to work with their own type, or is it better for people to work with another type that would challenge them theoretically? It often feels easier to work with somebody of your own type because you naturally are approaching it the same way. You'll have this way of thinking that's very aligned. But in fact, you often get the most benefit from somebody who's different and even your opposite. I like to think about these things as the opposite is very oppositional. It sounds conflict-oriented. But if you think of them instead as complements to one another, they're puzzle pieces that fit together. And so even though me as a pioneer, it might be easier for me to work with somebody who wants to brainstorm and come up with great ideas,

I really need to partner with somebody oftentimes who's not like that. And, in fact, my co-author, Suzanne, is my opposite. And that combination was partly what made our work so effective and so powerful. We each brought strengths that the other didn't have. And so when you know this, what on a very practical level, maybe an example or two would help of, so what do you do with it? How do you, do you, now that we know this, what's next? There's two basic ways to apply this. One is in your one-on-one interactions, and one is how you think about either the teams you're on or the teams you're leading. So in a one-on-one, you ideally want to flex and match the person and meet the person

somewhere in the middle. And so for Suzanne and I, for example, I'm going to be coming up with a million ideas and quickly making decisions and throwing a lot of stuff out. And Suzanne is going to be the one who's sort of putting the brakes on and saying, let's check all this and get to the details. And so practically what this looks like is a bit of a negotiation. You know, I'll say to Suzanne, I know that you need some time to think about this and that you have to get something done by such and such a date. So I'll commit to do that for you. And Suzanne will say to me, I get it. We don't have time to do as much analysis as I want on this. And so, you know, we can move a little bit faster. So each of us tries to meet in the middle a little bit. It's harder in a team environment because you're not

just dealing with a single other person. You're dealing with many people. And because, as I mentioned, there's a mix of all the types across the business population, chances are you're going to have multiple different perspectives in the room. And then it's a matter of figuring out how do I make sure that each of these types has the conditions they need to bring their best. So for instance, for my guardians, I need to get them an agenda in advance of a meeting so that they have time to process and be prepared. For my drivers, I better make sure that we get to the point quickly and that there's an outcome. The meeting needs to actually result in something happening. For my pioneers, I need to give some chances for them to explore different options and maybe brainstorm some possibilities.

And for my integrators, I need to give them time to get context and maybe socialize the ideas with a few people. They really want to collaborate and they want to get buy-in. So by recognizing those bare minimums, if you will, for all the types, I can compose something as a manager or a leader that's going to allow people to play to their strengths. But what about what you need and getting that from those people? Exactly. So in most situations, you may not have the luxury to just say, here's all the things I want to have. However, I will say that just starting to talk about this in the way that we are doing

right now by saying, actually, I'm a pioneer. And so I'm going to be rushing forward with things and coming up with ideas. But stop me if you need more details. So I'm acknowledging that I'm a certain way, and I'm putting it on them to tell me if that's not going to work. And so it is hard for people to flex sometimes, and certain styles can be less aware as well. And so being able to start a conversation and have a language around this can be really helpful to let the group self-regulate and say what it needs to be successful. How important is it or how does it fit into the mix as to whether or not you like these people? Do you have to like these people? Or can you work with people who you don't click with, who you

think, you know, the guy's a real jerk, but he gets the job done. Yeah, we all have situations where we are working with a range of different people and different personalities, and sometimes we click and sometimes we clash. I think that having a system like business chemistry can help remove some of the emotion from that. So rather than me thinking, gosh, that guy is such a jerk, you know, he's always beating down my ideas, I can say to myself, that guy is a driver, and he loves to debate, and he loves to be direct, and it's not personal. It's just the way he processes things. Yeah, well, that's easier said than done, I suspect. Because there is something about it at work. It's a minefield, because people are there

in close quarters working together who probably never would interact with each other outside of work. It's a very artificial environment, and yet you have to work with them, and so conflict is necessary. Conflict is necessary. And in fact, I think conflict, when it's turned in a productive direction, actually gets the group to better answers. And you're right. You don't always have the luxury of choosing who you work with. And there may be certain people who have to be on a team because they have expertise. Yet, if you approach it as a composition of different strengths and you're pulling in those pieces, you will get to better results even if it feels less comfortable.

So it may not be as enjoyable every moment, but ultimately you'll get to better results. And what we found is over time it becomes more natural. You do genuinely begin to see things from other people's perspectives. You have the ability yourself to maybe try on some of these other styles. And ultimately, it's not as much of a stretch, and it becomes a more natural part of the way you interact. There are always people in a group and in at work who are, you know, try to take the ball and run with it, and not necessarily in a good way, but they just, they want to be in charge, they want the glory, they want, that's probably fits into one of those four styles, I imagine, but you're talking a lot about, you know, working with them to foster their characteristics and to play to them, but aren't some of them destructive? Well, the leadership

thing is an interesting one, because there are types, so driver and pioneer in particular are the ones who are going to want to take that ball and run with it, as you described. And that can be a very good thing for a group. It could also be destructive if they're steamrolling the other types. And I mention this because I think one of the destructive things that happens oftentimes is that the more extroverted types can talk over or through the others and not give them a chance to contribute. And so being very aware of those aspects of the dynamics to be able to ensure the contributions of everybody is essential.

And you do that by doing what? Partly by recognizing that that dynamic is there. So if I know that there's somebody in the room who is a guardian or who's an integrator, I'm going to make sure that I actively encourage them to contribute to a discussion, or perhaps I will solicit their input first. One of the things that can happen with a group of very dominant personalities is that you get through this cascade. So somebody will say something and then somebody piles onto that. And before you know it, the train has left the station and you have that guardian in the corner who has all of the details and all of the facts that are actually

really essential to whatever the decision is that's being made, but they never had a chance to be heard. And so if I know that I have that guardian in the room, I'm going to ask them to speak early on. And by the way, I'm going to give them warning so that they're not put on the spot in the moment because they wouldn't like that either. I'm going to tell them in advance, listen, it's really important for me to get your perspective on this issue. Here are the three things we're going to cover. I'd appreciate it if you could speak up in the meeting. And that way I give them a chance to contribute. It does seem that, you know, as you said, taking the emotion out of this is really helpful and seems hard maybe in some situations where, you know, people get emotional. This is their work.

This is their livelihood. And sometimes people are try to dominate, and other people would just rather sit in the corner and be left alone, and it's hard to see them working together. Absolutely, and it is really important to recognize that it's not just a matter of who speaks up and who doesn't, it's also what they do. And so if you can have, for instance, a guardian be the expert on something, that's really going to work well for them. They're very comfortable in that role. If you have an integrator, be a coach, or be the person who seeks input from a variety of stakeholders, that's a great role for them.

And so people can lead in different ways. I think oftentimes we default to sort of the classic charismatic leader. And in fact, you do see in the C-suite in particular a dominance of pioneers. And that is fine for certain roles. And there's probably a combination of internal and external factors that leads to that. But when you look across organizations, you will see people leading in many ways with different career aspirations. And I think that the trick is to, as much as possible, be able to tap into what's really motivating people and where they feel that they're strongest and combine that to the common goals of the team. How do you identify people as one of these four, primarily? Do people self-identify pretty well?

If you ask them, you know, here are the four types, let me explain them to you, and which one are you, do they usually say and get it right, or does somebody else have to figure it out? People are actually pretty good at self-identifying, partly because this system was designed to be useful based on observations. So you don't need to take a test to be able to get a hypothesis for what somebody is. The way this system works is it's all mathematically derived. So we took all the traits that we thought were relevant around decision-making and risk-taking and how people

like to process information, and we performed a calculation on it, a statistical modeling to have those cluster into patterns. And so if you think about it like a universe of traits and the things that are clustered together and related to one another, those are like the constellations in your universe. And so if you are looking at this universe and you see a few stars in the sky, you're going to be able to say, ah, I saw that. So they make decisions quickly and they love brainstorming and they're very comfortable taking risk. Chances are they're pretty high on the pioneer pattern. And you do this process of elimination to get you down to your starting hypothesis. Once you have that, of course, you need to test that with interactions because no one is ever going to map neatly into a category. And that's really not the point. And in fact, sometimes what's more

interesting is saying, gosh, this person really seems like a pioneer, but they're not pioneer in these ways. That's interesting. Let's dig into that. And so have you put this into practice and watched it work or not work? Absolutely. We use this all the time. Originally, this system was developed for our own use within Deloitte, and we have it in many of our training programs. We use it with our teams all the time. And very quickly, we had clients say, hey, what's that thing you guys are doing? That seems really interesting. So we started using it then with clients in the broader world. And I think one of the reasons this has been so powerful is that the system is designed to be very memorable and very easy to apply. It's practical, it's pragmatic. And so it's had a stickiness. And

even writing this book, myself partnered with Suzanne, my opposite, was such an interesting real life demonstration of how those complementary things can come together to create something great. Well, this is great information, not only for managers, but just for people on a day-to-day basis to understand why people may be different than they are and why they work in a different way and why they like to do things differently. And I think when you understand that, it makes it easier to get along with those people. Kim Christfort has been my guest. The name of the book is Business Chemistry, Practical Magic for Crafting Powerful Work Relationships. There's a link to the book in the show notes. And Kim,

thanks for being here. I really appreciate talking to you. Thanks so much. So here's the question. You have to get from point A to point B, and it's raining. So will you get wetter walking in the rain or running in the rain? Well, let's look at the science. If you run, you get rained on from the top, but you're also running sideways into the rain. If you run, you get rained on from the top, but you're also running sideways into the rain. If you walk, you'll get rained on from the top, but you won't be running sideways into the rain. So walking keeps you in the rain longer, but will you be less wet by doing so? No. The physics is a little complicated, but at any given second, you're getting just as wet whether you walk or run. Your speed does not affect how much water you walk into from the side.

It's the same at any speed, just as a snowplow will plow the same amount of snow regardless of how fast it's going. The only variable is time. So the solution is to spend the least amount of time in the rain, meaning that you're better off running than walking. And that is something you should know. Once again, if you're a new listener in the last couple of episodes and you have a moment, drop me a line and tell me how you found this podcast. We're trying to figure out where this big jump in listenership came from, and that would really help.

You can email me at mike at somethingyoushouldknow.net. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love Top Ten lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies,

the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched

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Contained herein are the heresies of red off burnt wine first while monk turned traveling medical investigator join me as i study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving god and we are not its favored children the heresies of red off burnt wine wherever podcasts are available