Something You Should Know - When Personal Achievement Becomes Toxic & What You Never Knew About the Ocean

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Why are the numbers 1, 2 and 3 across the top of a telephone keypad but across the bottom of a calculator? That’s one of three interesting questions that get answered as I begin this episode. The other 2 have to do with portholes and time. Source: Ivan Semeniuk, co-author of Why Don't Penguins' Feet Freeze? (https://amzn.to/3sf8muM) There is nothing wrong with achievement. But if you believe that you are only as valuable as your achievements, that can be a problem. If we let our success or lack of success define who we are at any point in time, it can demotivate you and make you feel as if you don’t matter. Joining me to talk about this is Jennifer Wallace. She is an award-winning journalist and social commentator and frequent contributor to The Wall Street Journal and The Washington Post. She is author of a book called Never Enough: When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic—And What We Can Do About It (https://amzn.to/49jkdIQ) What goes on beneath the surface of the ocean is amazing - much of which I bet you never knew. The oceans cover 70% of the planet and yet most of us know little about what goes on down there. Here to give a fun and interesting tour of the workings of our oceans is Helen Czerski is a physicist and oceanographer at University College London’s Department of Mechanical Engineering and author of the book The Blue Machine: How the Ocean Works (https://amzn.to/3scCyXo). Listen as she explains why the ocean is so salty, why there is really only one ocean and so much more. What if there was one simple thing any woman could do to motivate the man in her life? Well there is according to one marriage expert. In fact, he says this one little thing works every single time if women would just try it. Source: David Clarke PhD, author of The Total Marriage Makeover (https://amzn.to/3QoIvZD) PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! PrizePicks is a skill-based, real-money Daily Fantasy Sports game that's super easy to play. Go to https://prizepicks.com/sysk and use code sysk for a first deposit match up to $100 Zocdoc is the only FREE app that lets you find AND book doctors who are patient-reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them! Go to https://Zocdoc.com/SYSK and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Shopify gives you everything you need to take control and take your business to the next level. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/sysk today! Dell's Black Friday event is their biggest sale of the year! Shop now at https://Dell.com/deals to take advantage of huge savings and free shipping! Let’s find “us” again by putting our phones down for five.  Five days, five hours, even five minutes. Join U.S. Cellular in the Phones Down For Five challenge! Find out more at https://USCellular.com/findus Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, the answers to three questions you've probably wondered about, about calculators, portholes, and time. Then, toxic achievement. It's when you define yourself by your success. The messages perhaps that you got growing up were that you're only as good as your success. So when you're not successful, that's when you can really, really struggle.

When we really couple our worth to our achievements, it makes us less resilient. Also, one simple thing women can do to motivate any man. And a peek below the surface at what's going on in our oceans. And there's a lot going on. I do think that we need to get away from this idea that the dominant thing we know about the ocean is that it's mysterious. You know, if you want mystery, look into space, it's empty. The ocean is doing so many interesting and beautiful things.

All this today on Something You Should Know. This is an ad for BetterHelp. Welcome to the world. Please, read your personal owner's manual thoroughly. In it, you'll find simple instructions for how to interact with your fellow human beings and how to find happiness and peace of mind. Thank you, and have a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online

Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello, welcome to Something You Should Know. I'm going to start today's episode with three questions. Three questions you may have wondered about, didn't know the answers, and now you'll have the answers.

Number one. On a telephone keypad, the lowest numbers, one, two, and three, are across the top. On a calculator, they're at the bottom. Why are they different?

Well, they each travel down different evolutionary roads. The calculator descended from the old adding machine, which had lower numbers at the bottom. The touch-tone telephone descended from the dial telephone, which had lower numbers at the top. Why are the windows on many ships round? They're portholes rather than windows. Actually, on many old wooden boats, the windows were square. But when ships switched to metal hulls, that's when things changed.

When you cut a rectangle or a square into a piece of metal, the metal is subject to more fatigue at those corner points. Naval architects quickly learned that round portholes eliminate the problem. And the third question, what time is it in the North Pole? And the answer is, any time you want it to be. Theoretically, all time zones converge at the North and South Poles, so there is technically no time. And that is something you should know.

It's hard to argue with the concept of achievement. We are taught to achieve, in school and at work. Achievement is good. It's how we get ahead. We judge our success by our achievements. But can achievement become toxic? Can we become so wrapped up in our achievements that they define us? That may not be so good. And it seems to happen quite a bit. Joining me to talk about this is Jennifer Wallace. She is an award-winning journalist, social commentator, covering parenting

and lifestyle trends. She used to work at 60 Minutes, and she is a frequent contributor to the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. She's author of a book called Never Enough, When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and What We Can Do About It. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Oh, thanks so much for having me on. So, state your case here, because, you know, achievement seems like a good thing. So, at what point does achievement become not a good thing? Achievement becomes toxic when our sense of self is so deeply intertwined with our successes

or our failures. That's when it becomes toxic, when we only feel as good as our next achievement, or we feel as bad as our failure. So when our self-esteem, when our sense of self, when our sense of worth rests on our accomplishments, it becomes toxic. So it would seem to me, though, that we are wrapped up in our achievements, that achievements are a big part of us, that if you, for example, get a job you've always wanted and you finally achieve that and then, say, the company goes out of business or you get fired or whatever, that's going to be a huge blow.

You're going to feel terrible about that because your achievements are a big part of you. So at what point do you say it's toxic? And at the other point, there's a line where you feel horrible and that's okay. Yeah, that's obviously a normal reaction, right? So mental health is not about having positive emotions all the time. But as psychologists point out, having good mental health means that you have a reaction that's appropriate to what you're going through. Where it would become toxic is if getting fired really becomes an indictment of your worth and you sink into a depression or you turn to substances to cope. That the messages perhaps that you got growing up were that you're only as good as your success.

And so when you're not successful, that's when you can really, really struggle. When we really couple our worth to our achievements, it makes us less resilient. And where does this come from? Why are people feeling this way? What I believe is at the root of much of our anxiety and depression, the loneliness epidemic, is this unmet need to matter. And mattering is a psychological construct that's been around since the early 1980s. It was an idea, a concept that was initially conceived by Morris Rosenberg, who

is the social psychologist who brought us the idea of self-esteem in the 1960s. And what he found in the early 80s was that kids who did well, who enjoyed healthy self-esteem, felt like they mattered to their parents, that they were important and significant. What I am seeing now in my own research, what I'm reading from national surveys, is that there are many people in the world who feel like they don't matter, meaning they don't feel valued by anyone, by family, by friends, at the workplace. They feel easily replaced. They don't feel known or seen or heard. And these are basic human needs that are going unmet. And when, you know, researchers who study it say that after the drive, the human motivation for food and shelter, it is the instinct to matter that drives human behavior for better and for worse.

I get that people don't feel like they matter and that it would be good if they did. But what does that have to do with achievement? I mean, I know I get it, but I want you to make the case because it seems like we're talking about two different things. We're not. Right. Okay. So when we talk about achievement that is excessive and felt like excessive pressure, what we are talking about is the idea that our sense of self is contingent on our achievements, that we only matter when we achieve. So the kids that I met who seemed to be suffering the most were kids who felt like their mattering was completely contingent on their performance, that they only mattered if they got good grades or if they made the A-team or they got the starring

role. They felt that only certain people in this world mattered. And then if they weren't performing at a high level, then they didn't actually matter. The other group of kids who were suffering that I met were kids who got the messages at home that they mattered. They heard from their parents that they were important and significant, but no one ever relied on them or depended on them to give back in any way other than to themselves and their own resumes. And so what these kids lacked was what I call social proof that they mattered. They heard it in words, but they didn't see how they actually made a positive impact on the world around them. But what you just said sounds like an argument

to try to achieve, to use that feeling of not mattering as fuel to show the world that you can achieve, that you can do something, that you do matter. And one way to be acknowledged as mattering is for people to see what you've accomplished, what you've achieved. Oh, I think it's the opposite of that. I'll talk about myself. I am extremely ambitious. I am a high performer. I get a lot of joy out of my achievements. But what I am driven by is what I call a healthy fuel. And that healthy fuel is that I don't feel defined by my achievements or my failures. I'm able to reach higher for bigger goals because I know if I don't succeed, it's not an indictment of who I am versus other people I know in my life who have a very fragile sense

of mattering, a very fragile sense of self-worth, that they only feel worthy when they're achieving. And so this can backfire. They are less likely to reach for super high goals because they are holding on to the little mattering that they have. I suppose what we're talking about, if you really zoom out, is about values and how they impact achievement and our well-being. And so your values of having this healthy outlook on achievement comes from where? Was it from your parents, from your... Yeah, there's a social psychologist, Gregory Elliott, who writes, what gets in early gets in deep. So our first sense of self-worth and self-esteem is

not created in a vacuum. It is what researchers call a social barometer to see how we are doing in the eyes of others. And the first people that we get this sense of self-worth from are our parents, the feedback that they give us, the signals they send us about whether or not we are worthy just for being who we are. And I will tell you, I grew up with a deep sense of mattering. And I didn't realize how unusual that was until I went out into the world. And I was working in very hyper-competitive environments, like 60 Minutes. And many of my colleagues really struggled with feeling worthy. One colleague said to me, you're only as good as your next story here. That is not a great environment to raise children in, to be working in ourselves. It seems that we live in a culture where it's a never-ending wheel, that if you want to

achieve, one way you achieve and you get opportunities to achieve is because of your past achievements, your experience achieving other things. So it never ends. And like with school, I have a son who at-risk group. And these are kids attending what researchers call high achieving schools. Those are public and private schools around the country where kids go off to competitive four-year colleges. Those kids are now at risk, meaning they are two to six times more likely to suffer from anxiety and depression and substance abuse disorder than the average American teen. That is a problem. When the kids in our culture who are given so many opportunities are doing as poorly as students living in poverty, there is something upside down wrong in our culture.

We're talking about achievement, toxic achievement, and the human need to matter. My guest is Jennifer Wallace. She is an award-winning journalist and author of the book, Never Enough, when achievement culture becomes toxic and what we can do about it. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather.

Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So Jennifer, it seems like there is some attention being paid to what you're talking about in the sense that we hear things about, you know, mental health days and self-care and the four-day work week and, you know, flexible schedules, that there's some attempt to address this? Or is that, in your view, just lip service? No, I think there is an attempt to address it. I think you're absolutely right. There's certainly more of an awareness, but I do believe that we are sold a bill of goods when it

comes to the multi-billion dollar wellness industry. You can't download a meditation app or have a mindful day at work. Resilience rests fundamentally, this is according to decades worth of resilience research, on the strength and depth of our relationships. The problem I saw, and I saw it over and over again, was not that adults today didn't have friends. The adults I interviewed had friends. What they didn't have was the time and the bandwidth to deepen those friendships so that they could be sources of support when needed. So in order for parents, for example, to act as first responders to our kids' struggles, we need one or two people in our lives outside of the home and i want to underscore that

because our in-home relationships are already overtaxed trying to be these you know one household villages so really it's one or two people outside of our home that we can open up to that we can feel heard that we can feel seen that know we matter. And that is what builds up our resilience. Do you think, you know, if you stopped people on the street and asked them if they saw this as a problem in their life, that they would agree with you? Or because, you know, your life is your life, you don't really have anything to compare it to, that they don't see this as a problem. This is just the way things are. No, there have been studies done asking the very question, do you feel like you matter?

Do people notice you? Do people depend on you? And a very large percentage of adults and youth do not feel like they matter and they're aware of it. This is an instinct to matter. This is something that we have all evolved to feel. So you can feel like you don't matter. You can feel invisible, but you notice, you know that you're, I mean, think about it in your own life. I mean, there have been times, our sense of mattering fluctuates throughout our lifespan. So you could be a busy young mother and actually feel like you matter too much because you're exhausted and your kids are pulling at you all day long. And then your children could leave and go to college and start their own lives. And you wonder if you're not sort of feeling like you matter in

other domains of your life, you can really struggle with not feeling like you matter. People in retirement can feel like they matter at work and then feel invisible when they're out of the workplace. No one is asking anything of them. No one is depending on them anymore. I don't know if that's the actual question you would ask people, but if you ask somebody, do you think you matter? I mean, there's kind of a tendency to say no because of the way the question is served up. And it isn't like you don't matter to everybody. Maybe you don't feel like you matter at work, but you, nope. I don't think too many people feel like they don't matter to anybody, to anywhere. Oh, I think you're wrong.

I think this is part of our devastating loneliness epidemic. I don't have the data in front of me, but there have been national surveys asking people, if you were to go in for surgery, would you have someone to call you to pick you up? I mean, there are so many lonely people in the world. I don't think it's the majority of people, but I think it's an alarming percentage of people. And I think what we're seeing with the opioid epidemic, with substance abuse disorder that's running rampant in our society is a way of coping with feeling like you don't matter. So if you feel like you don't matter, how do you fix that? So it was funny.

I was doing a presentation for a major corporation that I won't name. And a 30-year-old raised their hand and said, you know, some days I really don't feel like I matter. Some days I really don't. And is there a mantra that I could say to myself? And I said, I have something better than a mantra. And say to the man or the woman who serves you that delicious warm lunch that brings a smile on your face and thank them for always making your day a little brighter. So the way to unlock our mattering is by unlocking it in others. The more we can unlock mattering, even just small talk at the deli or thanking someone sincerely for doing something

for you. That is how we build up our own sense of mattering. It's one way. That's an interesting way of, because I wouldn't think that would be a way, but anytime you have one of those conversations, you always feel pretty good. You always feel like when you tell somebody how grateful you are for what they do, that feels good to you. Exactly. It's a, you know, they call gratitude a social glue, what binds people together. So when you feel appreciated, the person, you know, even let's call it a colleague. Let's not say it's a stranger. Let's say it's someone in your workplace.

Really takes time to appreciate something that you've done and say it out loud. What does that do? It binds you to them. It helps you notice that they are potentially a good relationship partner, somebody that may be a relationship, a friendship that you want to nurture. And then it binds you to them. The find-bind-remind theory is what I'm talking about, which is something researchers who study gratitude have found with couples and with long-term friendships, that expressions of gratitude can actually act like a booster shot, reminding you of the value of that relationship and bonding you to them.

That gratitude plays an evolutionary role in making our social connection strong. So I guess, and you kind of questioned where I was coming from early on. And I think what I was thinking was more when I saw the title, this overachievement culture, and the solution is to lower your sights. Don't try so hard. You're just ruining your life. And settle for less. And that's not your message. No, my message is the opposite. My message is be ambitious for more.

Be ambitious for more than just a narrow definition of success. What does it mean to you to live a successful life? And what a successful life looks like to me is having a successful marriage, having a successful, strong relationship with my kids, being a friend that people know they can depend on, enjoying hobbies, having time for joy in my life, having enough time to rest. So what I'm saying is not to be not ambitious, but to be ambitious for more than just being a cog in the machine. Well, it's a great message. And I think one a lot of us can take to heart, those of us who perhaps have put too much emphasis on achievement in our life. And maybe there's a different way.

I've been speaking with Jennifer Wallace. She is a journalist and social commentator. She's a frequent contributor to the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. And she is author of a book called Never Enough, When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and What We Can Do About It. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.

Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Since I host a podcast, Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

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that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. There is something awe-inspiring about the ocean. Just looking at it can give you an amazing sense of wonder. The oceans cover so much of our planet, and yet many of us know very little about what goes on beneath the surface,

or even on top of the surface. And many of us don't really understand what the oceans do. Here to take us on a fascinating journey of the world's oceans is Helen Chersky. Helen is a physicist and oceanographer at University College London's Department of Mechanical Engineering, and she is author of a book called The Blue Machine, How the Oceans Work. Hi, Helen. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks for having me on. So I have always

loved the ocean. I've lived near the ocean. The ocean, there's something about it that just does it for me. But what is it you find so fascinating about the ocean? It's that it's so many different things. The way you see the ocean depends on your perspective at that time. And it's kind of the same as, you know, we all understand that a human being can be many different things, right? Someone can be a poet and a great badminton player and also a skeleton that's got, you know, some lungs and kidneys hanging off it. And there's all these different ways of looking at what a human being is. And in the same way, there's lots of different ways of looking at what the ocean is. And I think the great shame is that our society really only sees one or perhaps two of those things.

And there's all this richness behind it. Yeah, well, of course, that richness is all underwater. So it's kind of hard to see unless you really make an effort to go look. And I think that's why we're so mystified by it, because it isn't easy to see. No, it isn't. Of course, we're land mammals and, you know, the ocean is far away from many of us and it's quite hard to get out into the middle of the ocean, all of those things. But really, the great tragedy of the ocean, I mean, all of that is also true for the sky and for the moon and, you know, for the stars. The great tragedy of the

ocean from a human point of view is that you can't see into it, that light doesn't travel very far. Because just imagine if you could really see into the ocean. You know, we think that water is transparent to light because when you turn on the tap, you know, what comes out is colourless, even though actually we all teach our children to draw, you know, with blue crayons, to draw water with blue crayons, which is just crazy. If there's enough water altogether, it does look blue. But we think of water as something that light travels through, but actually it doesn't. It'll go a couple of hundred meters on a good day. And so it stops us, the ocean hides itself from us. And that's the thing that, you know, we're such visual creatures that because we can't look into it in the same way that we can look into the sky. We sort of think it isn't there. And as you

say, that makes it harder to appreciate. But it does mean that once you start to be able to look, you know, as technology gets better, as we get better at telling these stories, there's a lot to see there. Can you give me just some of the ABCs of oceans? Like, you know, how many are there? How much of the earth does it cover? Just some of the basic facts and figures about the ocean as it relates to us. Well, I guess the statistic that most people are familiar with is that the ocean covers about 70% of Earth's surface. The thing that, the statistic, interestingly, I think most people are less familiar with is that there's only one ocean. That's it. There's one.

Because it's all connected. And you can see it like this. There's a type of map known as the Spillhouse Projection because the guy who came up with it was called Athelstan Spillhouse. And, you know, so every two dimensional map is a version of a three, you know, you take a three dimensional sphere and this spherical surface and you kind of try and flatten it out somehow so you can put it on a piece of paper and he said this very profound thing he said that in order to see the land we always cut the ocean so in order to see the ocean we must cut the land and when you draw the map like that when you unwrap earth so that you cut the land instead of the ocean then you can see it's one big global ocean on average it's just a little bit under four kilometers deep and

I guess one other perhaps statistic about it is that just under half of all photosynthesis on earth happens in the ocean so you know we think on land we think about trees, plants, all those green things harvesting sunlight and turning it into a form that other you know other life can can eat basically like, like us. And just under half of all of that process for Earth happens in the ocean, even though we can't see plants and trees and that sort of thing in most of the ocean. So, yeah, it's an important place. There's lots going on there.

Well, you say it's all one ocean, but I remember it wasn't that long ago I saw that picture, or maybe it was a video, of where the Atlantic, I think it's the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean meet and the waters don't mingle, that you can see the line between one and the other. So how are they all one if they don't mingle? So the area you're talking about, and I think you're talking about the area of South Africa, that's the most most famous uh place where you see that um you know fish can just swim from one side to the other it's clearly connected but the water doesn't have time to mix up um that whatever's generating the distinctiveness is kind of generating distinctiveness faster than the mixing can even it out but you say you say fish could swim between the two things, they can go and do they? Yeah, that's right. So and actually, because of this distinctive anatomy, you know, so to us, it just looks like water and more water and other water. But if you're a fish, especially if you're

a predator that can swim long distances to find food, the ocean to you has structure in the same way that we look at land and we see hills and forests and streams, you know, we see different types of environment. If you're underwater and you're a predator, you can effectively distinguish different types of environment. So for example, the Gulf Stream. So the Gulf Stream is the big fast warm current that comes up the side of North America in the Atlantic and then turns across and comes out towards us in Europe. And it's generally drawn on a map as a kind of smooth line kind of curving around. But actually, if you look at what it's really doing,

it's much more interesting than that, because this river of water within other water is sort of wobbling and meandering as it goes. And sometimes as those wobbles grow, they get big enough. So imagine a kind of a stream going along that starts to generate a loop and the loop gets bigger and bigger until eventually a whole part of that loop can kind of break away and it just spins by itself. And so the Gulf Stream is doing that all the time. And it's kind of budding these spinning islands of water that we call mesoscale eddies. And they can be 50 to 100 kilometers across.

They can last for several months, up to two years. And that little spinning island, either of warm water within cold water or a spinning island of cold water within warm water, the Gulf Stream kind of buds these off, and then they sort of drift off either north or south. And they've got quite distinctive ecosystems. And so, for example, bluefin tuna will go looking for those eddies because they know that they're good places to hunt. And the yellowfin and big-eyed tuna, they'll go looking for the cold

ones. And the bluefin tuna go looking for the warm ones. And the sharks are often found at the bottom of the warm ones. And the swordfish hang around outside. So absolutely, they can swim across the ocean because they know that these features are going to be there. They know that it'll have the thing they want to hunt. And so they can swim into them. And once they've found one, they'll kind of stay with it and, you know, scoff themselves silly, fill themselves with food. And then if it starts to dissipate or to mix in with the rest of the ocean,

they'll just go and find another one. What makes the ocean salty? So it's quite a profound question. It was first, Aristotle is the first person we have a record of asking that question. And he came to the conclusion, you know, before the age of what we now recognize as science and experimentation. He thought that the sea was salty because when sunlight hit it, it became salty. And it wasn't until the 1600s when a guy called Robert Boyle, who was very much into experiments, actually left some water out in the sunshine to see if it would go salty.

And it didn't. It just started to stink. So that was that idea out the door. And there is a lot of salt in the ocean and where it comes from a mixture of places. So what we think of salt as being a solid because, you know, that's what you put on your chips or whatever, your fries. But actually only what salt really is, is it's a mixture of different components that all dissolved in the water. So you might have chloride and sodium and magnesium and iodide, all these kind of components. But it's only when you take the water away that they join up to form a solid salt. So salt is actually lots of different things that are all mixed in to seawater. And the mixture of them is the same everywhere, which is quite interesting. But it's just because they've had so long to mix up. And so those components came from different places. But there were two major sources. One of them was that on the early Earth,

there were huge amounts of acid rain, because way back then the environment was much more harsh, the rain was slightly acidic. And as it ran over rocks, it dissolved some minerals from the rocks like sodium. So that's where the sodium comes from. And of course, the rivers then ran down into the sea and the sea gradually got more and more sodium. And then the other place you get ions from is from underwater volcanoes, which are belching things out from underneath the earth. And that's where the chloride came from. But once they're all in the ocean,

there's no way for them to get out. So over geological time, they've kind of accumulated in the ocean. And now there's a kind of balance between salt that goes, the same processes adding little bits more salt to the ocean and the processes which are kind of putting salt high and dry on land. So, you know, in Utah, you get those salt flats. Well, that's salt that used to be in an ocean and now it's dry on land. So it's not in the ocean anymore.

But there is a huge amount of salt in the ocean. If you take a household bath and you want to make it as salty as the ocean, you have to put a whole bucket full of salt in it. It's a lot of salt. The temperature of the ocean is regulated by what? Temperature is really important in the ocean because it's, water is a really good way of storing heat. And we know this because if we try and, you know, if we heat up some water in a pot on the stove or in a kettle, it takes an enormous amount of energy to do it. You have to put a lot of energy in to warm up water by even a little bit. So that means that if you've got some water, you can add lots of energy to it. You can effectively store the energy there,

but you've only heated up the water a little bit. So the ocean is an enormous store of heat energy, and it comes from the sun, almost all of it. You know, there's tiny contributions from geothermal energy underneath, but they are absolutely minuscule. So the ocean's heated from above, and because of the way the ocean engine turns, it turns out that the bottom of the ocean is filled from the poles and that the poles is obviously much colder water. So the water that flows,

that fills up the bottom of the ocean from different places on the world, that's cold water. So at depth, it can be maybe four degrees Celsius while at the surface where it's all being heated by the sunlight, in the tropics, it could be 30 degrees Celsius. So you get this temperature structure which being heated by the sunlight in the tropics it could be 30 degrees Celsius so you get this temperature structure which is part of the anatomy of the

ocean and and one of the things the ocean does together with the atmosphere is move heat overall to move heat from the equator towards the poles helping to drive the weather and of course that influences what happens on land so it sounds you, the sort of things that a child might know about the ocean are that it's warm or cold, it's salty and it's wet. And those are quite fundamental things that determine the character of the ocean that I can see, and I come back a week later and do the same thing, am I looking at the same water, or is this all new water that's moving around, and maybe this was in Japan three weeks ago because everything's moving, or is it pretty stationary? It's almost certainly moved somewhere.

It does depend a bit on where you are. Yeah, that water's been on a journey and you don't always know where it's come from. These days, actually, we have quite clever computer models which we can sort of run backwards. You know, if we say if we're here, where do we think that water came from? So it will have come from somewhere else

and it will have mixed in with water from lots of different places, actually. So as the ocean engine turns, there is a very slow mixing. So, you know, over here, if I was to dip a toe in the water off the coast of Scotland, for example, I would be getting some water from over on the American side of the Atlantic that's travelled across with Gulf Stream. I would probably be getting some water that's come down from the

Arctic. There might be some water that has perhaps it got rained onto land and it went into the Baltic and it's come out into the North Sea. So, you know, if you were to trace the distant origins, all water has probably been everywhere. But the interesting thing is that actually some of the water, if you're in some places in the world where you get an upwelling from the deep, the water that you're seeing might not just have come from another country, but it might have been down in the deep ocean for so long that it hasn't seen sunlight for a few hundred years. So you're also kind of going back in time, you know, the last time it was connected to the atmosphere, connected to the rest of the planet could have been a long time ago. So the water is also coming to you from different times in time as well as different places in space.

What about the ocean do you think people maybe don't know that would be fascinating because it either affects them, it affects us, or it happens and we don't see it, or just something that's really rather amazing that is under the radar? If I had to pick one thing off the top of my head, you know, I would say how important sound is in the ocean. We have this idea that the ocean is kind of silent, partly because of films and partly because of one specific film, The Silent World that Jack Kustone made back in 1956. And we don't prioritize sound very much on land.

We're visual creatures. We look for things. We look at things that are a long way away. And we kind of know that we usually can't hear things that are a very long way away. But in the ocean, it's exactly the other way around. Light doesn't travel very far. Light is not a long distance messenger, but sound is absolutely critical. So I think in terms of things that we don't think about when it comes to the ocean, the importance of sound and the number of different sounds there are. So on a coral reef, for example, or the fish and the crustaceans, whatever's down there, they're basically chattering away. They're grunting and squeaking and making all kinds of noises.

They're talking to each other. They're paying attention to what's around them because they can hear what's around them. And it's been shown, a scientist called Steve Simpson at the University of Exeter recently did a study showing that if you've got a dead coral reef, you know, one that's been bleached. And so there's not very much living there. If you play the sounds of a live coral reef in that place, then the larvae of fish that are kind of floating around in the water are more likely to settle there. So coral larvae, for example, or small things that need an anchor point, you know, barnacles and so on, they're more likely to settle in a place that's got the right sound. So when you see like a hurricane, a big weather system, and the water looks all chopped up and big, huge waves out in

the middle of the ocean, ships being thrown around. But you get the sense that just below the surface, things are quieter. That if you go down not too far, things kind of remain the same. Is that true? And maybe that's because when you swim in the ocean and you go down a few feet, things seem pretty calm versus the waves on the top of the water. Is that true in the ocean? No. But the reason it's not true, I mean, the waves are pretty turbulent. And that's part of what I study in my academic job. But actually, it's to do with how we look at the world. So we have eyes and senses that can see waves, but they can't tell the difference between different types of water, you know. But what we can't see is all the other character of the water. So we can't

directly detect the amount of living things that are in the water. And most living things in the ocean are really, really tiny. In land, we tend to think of, you know, that kind of life as being trees, big things that we can see. But in the ocean, it's far too small to see. And I estimate if you look at those numbers, I estimate that just over 60% of all ocean life is too small for us to see with the naked eye. So we can't see what's happening with the life for a start. And even then, there's small things in the water that we technically could see if we were looking for them,

but they tend not to come out during daytime. So for example, the biggest migration on Earth happens at dusk in the ocean where lots and lots of very tiny creatures that have been hiding down in the darkness, as the sun goes down, they rise up in the water column and come up to the surface to hunt and then when the sun you know when the sun rises again they go they sink back down so we tend not to see those because we tend not to be swimming in the dark um so so it's not that there aren't things happening

it's just that our senses are biased. So we don't see them in the we're not aware of them in the same way that, you know, smaller creatures or creatures that live in the ocean that have to, you know, navigate through these conditions would be able to tell. So there is, it might be calmer in the sense that, you know, it's not like a washing machine, you know, you've not got that kind of turbulence that's smashing everything about. But it is definitely the case that there are lots of things happening and there is a huge amount of character, but we can't see it directly. Are there any misconceptions, things people say about the ocean that drive you crazy that you know aren't true or anything like that?

So I've got a right bee in my bonnet about this comparison between the moon. People sometimes, there's this statement people say that we know more about the surface of the moon than we do about deep ocean. It drives me mad. It's wrong. It's wrong in every possible way. And I'll spare you the full rant. But the basic reason it's wrong is that there is so much more to know about the ocean. It's a much richer environment. And the moon is a dead rock that hasn't changed for 2 billion years. And you know, it's perfectly nice. I have nothing against the moon. But it's a static environment that kind of, you know, it's not doing anything. And it's relatively limited in what's on offer there. Whereas the ocean is enormously rich. It's got all these different types of life. It's got all these different types of chemistry. It's moving. It's changing with the seasons. It's changing with the time of day. It's doing things all the time. So it's a far richer environment. And that statement about comparing the moon to the deep ocean drives me nuts because it implies that the deep ocean is only as interesting as the moon. and it's much, much better. There are lots of interesting things that we don't know about the ocean. You know, we've never seen giant squid or colossal

squid mate, for example. We don't know where they do it or how they do it. There's plenty of, you know, we don't really know what sea turtles do when they're not nesting or feeding because they're off on the beaches. Those are just two biological things. There are lots of physical things as well. So just exactly how water is moving along and how it really mixes in the deep ocean. There are lots of physical things as well. So just exactly how water is moving along and how it really mixes in the deep ocean. There's lots of questions there. But we also do know a lot about the ocean. We're just not very good at talking about it. So we absolutely do have a very good picture of this engine and how it works. But I do think that we need to get away from this idea that the dominant thing we know about the ocean is that it's mysterious.

You know, if you want mystery, look into space, it's empty. Have your mysteries out there. The ocean is doing so many interesting and beautiful things. We need to look at that for what it really is, to appreciate that for what it really is, rather than just sort of dismissing it as a mystery. Well, okay, if you say so. But one of the things I find so interesting about the ocean is the mystery of so much that I have no idea what's going on down there. And that somehow fascinates me. I've been speaking with Helen Chersky. She's a physicist and oceanographer at University College London's Department of Mechanical Engineering. And she's author of a book called The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works.

And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks for this little tour through the ocean. Appreciate it, Helen. No problem. Thanks for inviting me on. Men need praise. That's according to Dr. David Clark, author of a book called The Total Marriage Makeover. He says the more a woman praises her man, the better the relationship will be.

But, he says, most women aren't very good at it. The tendency is to focus on all the things men are not doing or are doing poorly. And maybe all those criticisms are valid, but they totally demotivate a man. So, instead of criticizing a man for spending too much time at work, praise him for the time he does spend with you and the kids. When women criticize men for what they're not doing, it breeds more of the same. Praise, on the other hand, is such a deep need for men

that they will go to great lengths to get more of it, including doing what you want him to do. Try it. Dr. Clark says it always works. And that is something you should know. You know, it's not uncommon for fans of this podcast, and there are many of them, they'll ask me, like, what can I do to support your podcast? Well, one great thing you can do is to do business with our sponsors. If they're offering something that sounds of interest to you and you do business with them, that helps us. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

It's pretty clear to everyone by now that social media has changed everything from the way we live to how we discuss politics and what we think we know about the world around us. Which begs the question, who's in charge here? Hi, I'm Jon Favreau, former Obama speechwriter turned chronically online host of Offline with Jon Favreau. Join me every week just outside your social media fueled echo chamber for a smarter, lighter conversation about the real time changes and real world effects of social media and the internet on all of our lives. Check out Offline with Jon Favreau every Sunday, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning,

a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. We'll see you next time. and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.