Something You Should Know - Why Do We Experience Déjà Vu? & How Your Emotions Drive Your Actions
Episode Date: November 1, 2021Your siblings have had an important impact on you, whether you realize it or not. This episode begins by talking about how brothers and sisters can affect your personality and character later in life.... https://www.unilad.co.uk/life/having-a-sister-makes-you-happier-and-more-optimistic-study-finds Have you ever had a déjà vu experience? Most people have. What is it? What causes it? Joining me to discuss that is Anne Cleary, she is a professor at Colorado State University where she studies the phenomenon of déjà vu, and she is author of a book called The Déjà Vu Experience (https://amzn.to/3ErC6Fm). She also has a very interesting TED Talk on the subject that you can access here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAvUkjba-Q. If you’ve ever been a little spooked by the feeling of déjà vu, you will want to hear what Anne has to say about it. Do you brush and floss your teeth every day? I hope so, because it looks as if it is good for your brain. Listen as I explain the interesting connection between dental health and mental health. https://www.babylondentalcare.com/flossing-your-teeth-may-protect-against-cognitive-decline/ Just about every action you take is driven by your emotions. Whether it is what ice cream you eat, what book you read or what job you take, it is mostly determined by how you feel. And that is true not just for you - but for everyone throughout history. Our history is really a history of emotions. People did what they did and do what they do because their feelings and emotions are telling them. Richard Firth-Godbehere. Richard is one of the world’s leading experts on emotions and he is author of a book called A Human History of Emotion: How the Way We Feel Built the World We Know (https://amzn.to/3Bqp9K3) . Listen as he joins me to discuss your emotions and how they truly govern your life. PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really like The Jordan Harbinger Show! Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start OR search for it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen! Firstleaf – the wine club designed for you!! Join today and get 6 bottles of wine for $29.95 and free shipping! https://tryfirstleaf.com/SOMETHING Omaha Steaks is the best! Get awesome pricing at https://OmahaSteaks.com/BMT T-Mobile for Business the leader in 5G, #1 in customer satisfaction, and 5G in every plan! https://T-Mobile.com/business Get $15 off your first box of premium seafood at https://WildAlaskanCompany.com/Something Grow your business with Shopify today at https://Shopify.com/sysk https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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Today on Something You Should Know, what having a brother or sister does to your character and personality.
Then, Deja Vu. What is it? Have you had it?
Most people have had the experience. Now, an interesting aspect regarding Deja Vu. What is it? Have you had it? Most people have had the experience.
Now, an interesting aspect regarding Deja Vu's incidents,
the most common elicitor is scenes.
So places followed by conversations with people.
Also, how your dental health can affect your mental health
and how emotions drive your actions
and has driven everyone's
actions throughout all of history.
The point is that emotions have a history and most history when it's done, it's done
mostly free from emotions.
It's done as this event made that happen or that person did that and then this happened.
But actually, all of that is seeped in emotions.
People do things because of how they feel.
All this today on Something You Should Know.
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Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts and practical advice you can
use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hi welcome to something you
should know i grew up in a family of five kids four boys and a, and I'm the second oldest. And there's some interesting research
about how siblings affect other siblings as they grow up. It turns out that having a brother
is really good for girls. Women who grew up with a brother tend to end up more confident
in social situations, especially with the opposite sex. Those sisters are also more likely to take on roles traditionally dominated by men
and are a lot less intimidated by careers and hobbies that are stereotypically male.
And if you've got a sister, well, consider yourself lucky.
Researcher Tony Cassidy says that his studies have found that families with sisters
have deeper bonds and better communication skills.
And that is something you should know.
There's a pretty good chance that you have experienced déjà vu.
That feeling that you've been here before or that you've said this before or that you're experiencing something now that has already happened in the past.
So what is that? Some say it's paranormal, or it's a clue to your psychic abilities, and others say that's nonsense.
Anne Cleary is someone who studies déjà vu. She is a professor at Colorado State University,
and she has a great TED Talk on this subject that you can see online.
There's a link to it in the show notes.
And she is author of a book called The Déjà Vu Experience.
Hi, Anne. Welcome to Something You Should Know.
Thanks.
So you've been studying this phenomenon of deja vu.
What do you think is going on?
What is it that gives us that sense that I've done this before or I've been here before?
Well, the definition of deja vu is the experience of having experienced something before
while simultaneously also feeling that that's impossible because this is the first
time that you're experiencing it. From my perspective, what causes it is likely memory.
It's likely that you have experienced something, either this situation or something very much like
it at some point in your past, and you have simply forgotten that
prior experience. And so you're unable to recall the source of the familiarity that you're
experiencing with it. What is the history of deja vu in the sense of, you know, when was it first
identified? How long has it been studied? So deja vu began to appear in literature in around the late 1800s or so.
Philosophers and thinkers began writing about it and speculating as to its cause. currently still some debate over when the phrase déjà vu first began appearing in the literature
and in intellectual circles. But it's clear that by about the mid-20th century or so,
the phrase had caught on, and that became the single-use phrase in English for describing the experience itself.
Well, we use it in English, but it is a French word. So why do we continue to use a French word?
It first started in France among intellectuals and philosophers. I believe that the reason we're
still using the French phrase in English is because there simply isn't a better term in English.
And interestingly, some colleagues and I have been examining, well, are there words in other
languages for this same experience? And in some other languages, it's actually the French phrase
as well. So I believe in Spanish, for example, people also use the French phrase déjà vu. And it's an interesting question. Does every language have a phrase for this? Because it's such an odd, unusual experience. of who's had it, when does it happen in life and during the day and time of year?
And are there any similarities or it just pops up whenever?
Yeah, it's hard to pinpoint when exactly it's going to occur for someone in daily life.
But most people have had the experience at some point or other.
So according to survey research, about two thirds of the population reports having had deja vu at some point in their life.
Now, an interesting aspect and a complete mystery regarding deja vu's incidence is that it tends to decrease with age. And so it peaks in young adulthood,
the frequency with which people report experiencing it, that is. It peaks in around
the early 20s or so and then starts to decline from there, becoming lesser and lesser as people
grow older. Another interesting aspect is that if you look at survey research regarding
what people feel prompts it when it does happen to them, it seems that the most common elicitor
is scenes. So places tend to be the most common elicitor of the experience,
followed by conversations with people.
Does it normally happen in the morning, in the evening? It doesn't matter?
Yeah, there have been some survey studies about that. I'm not sure I would make too much of it other than it tends to be correlated with fatigue. And so from that perspective,
it may have a slightly greater likelihood of occurring later in the day when people are more likely to be tired and also later in the week for some reason.
So here's the thing that I really don't understand about deja vu, because you had said that, you know, it's probably related to memory.
You're having an experience of something that you've never experienced before,
but seems like you have. I have a lot of experiences that I have experienced before.
I don't get that magical feeling when I remember things I've experienced before,
and I'm experiencing them again. So there's something else going on.
It isn't just a memory.
Even a memory that I haven't experienced for years,
I can walk into an old house and go, oh, I've been here before.
It's not deja vu because I know I've been there before.
But when I have deja vu, it's a very kind of mystical, wow.
So what's the difference? Yes. And this is exactly
why I am so interested in deja vu as a memory researcher, because I think it is providing us
with a unique window into how our memory systems might operate. So as you describe, most of the time, our experiences
are familiar to us, and we have experienced something related to the situation, but
it doesn't elicit this very mysterious sensation of simultaneously feeling like it's intensely
familiar, but yet that's impossible. And so the key question is, what is going on in those
situations? And it seems as if it's likely that something in memory's normal operation
is being disrupted or has gone awry in some way, and it's now drawing our attention to that.
But to really get at your question, this is something that we've been aiming to investigate
in our laboratory.
And one of the key hypotheses that we have had for what might cause that very unique
type of experience that is deja vu is when there's a juxtaposition between an intense sense of familiarity on the one hand,
and yet a recognition of novelty or newness on the other hand. And so it may be that when you
have this juxtaposition, that that is what really leads to this strange sensation. And it may be that that juxtaposition doesn't
happen very often. Usually things either are very obviously familiar and they're not novel,
or they're very obviously new and they're not familiar. And it's when you have this
juxtaposition of both at the same time that perhaps you have this strange, eerie sensation that we call deja vu.
So it's a feeling of, I've never been here before, but it seems like I've been here before,
versus, oh, I remember this.
Yes.
And the experience of deja vu, I know you talk in your TED Talk that a lot of people report that not only do they experience something that they
think they've experienced before that they don't remember having ever done that, but that they also
think they know what's going to happen next. Yes, this is one of the most interesting aspects
of Deja Vu from my perspective. So I've been studying déjà vu for over a decade now from the perspective that
it is probably a window onto how our memory systems work. And in the process of studying it,
I have come to the realization that for many, many people, déjà vu doesn't just feel like a strong sense of familiarity juxtaposed with
newness. It doesn't just feel like a memory. Many, many people have the experience of feeling as if
they know exactly what is going to happen next when they're in the midst of a deja vu experience.
And years ago, I was kind of dismissive about this as a scientist. I thought,
oh, you know, that there can't possibly be anything to that. That must just be people's
beliefs about what deja vu actually is and people's associating it with the paranormal.
But enough people kept coming forward and contacting me or telling me their deja vu stories that with this
element involved, this feeling of prediction or knowing what's going to happen next,
that I began to wonder if there might be something to this and something that might be
able to be studied scientifically. So years ago, I came up with the hypothesis that perhaps there
is a memory explanation for the feeling of prediction. That is maybe if it is the case that
deja vu can be driven by an unrecalled memory for something very similar to the current situation,
then perhaps that unrecalled memory
could also lead a person to have a sense of knowing what's going to happen next based on
how the situation happened in the past. I'm not sure why, but you know what this kind of reminds
me of? If you ask somebody, what are the lyrics to a specific song? They'll often have trouble
remembering the lyrics off the top of their
head. But if you play the song, if they're kind of singing along with the song, the lyrics just
come. You know them, but you need that prompt. It's interesting that you mentioned that,
because there is an auditory form of déjà vu. The phrase for that is déjà entendu. And we have actually used music
in our lab to try to investigate that. And what we did in that study was to try to create an
auditory analog to the spatial type of scene similarity that I mentioned was to use what are called piano puzzlers. So there's a musical composer named
Bruce Adolph, who every week for a radio show produces what he calls a piano puzzler, which
is a unique combination of the genre of a particular musician and some popular sort of nursery rhyme or pop song. He combines them in a unique way
that has this tendency to elicit a feeling of familiarity. So when you hear a piano puzzler,
very often it feels familiar and you can't pinpoint why, yet it's also recognizably new
at the same time because it doesn't sound like a piece that you've exactly heard before.
And so we've used these in the past, these piano puzzlers, to examine Deja Entendu.
And interestingly, over the years, in some of our research, taking this approach to examining
the feeling of Deja Entendu, so the feeling of having heard something before, even though
you're pretty sure this is also a new song that you've never exactly heard before. People also have feelings of prediction
during déjà entendu. So if we ask people if they feel like they can predict whether the next note
upon stopping the musical piece is going to be high or low, people feel very strongly that they can make that prediction even when they can't.
And when we ask people if they feel like they can predict whether the next sound is going to
come from the left or from the right, they feel very strongly when they have that sense of Deja
Entendu for a musical piece, they feel very strongly that they can predict where the next
song is, where the next note is going to come from. Is it going to be from the left or the right? We're talking about
déjà vu. And my guest is Anne Cleary, who researches déjà vu. She is a professor at
Colorado State University and author of the book, The Déjà Vu Experience.
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podcasts. So, Anne, I imagine the history of déjà vu is filled with explanations of the paranormal, that this must mean all kinds of things and who knows what.
What are some of the other non-scientific explanations for déjà vu that you find intriguing?
So there are a number of non-scientific explanations of déjà vu that fall into the
paranormal realm. And one of them concerns past lives. So one explanation that
has existed in the paranormal literature for probably over 100 years or so, is that the
explanation might be that when you have this sensation, it is because it's alerting you to a very similar experience that you lived through in a past life.
Now, I suspect that this is just a way that people have come up with for trying to explain the bizarre experience that is deja vu.
We have an inherent need to explain to ourselves why we're experiencing certain things. And when we have a sensation
like that, like deja vu, that's jarring and maybe even a little bit eerie or alarming,
it can be comforting to come up with an explanation to kind of explain it away.
Another paranormal explanation that has come up in various literatures over the past hundred years is the
idea that deja vu is somehow a psychic phenomenon. And in fact, you'll see that explanation even
today. If you were to type into a search engine, signs your psychic, very often one of the factors
that will come up in a list on a number of different
websites is deja vu, or the idea that you experience deja vu very often, that may be a
sign that you're psychic. And I suspect that one of the reasons why deja vu tends to be associated
with this idea of being psychic or able to predict the future is its very association
with the sense of prediction.
So we've now been able to document in a scientific way that there actually is a subjective
association.
It's illusory, but there is a subjective association between the sensation of deja vu and the
sensation of being able to predict what's going to happen next.
Another question I wanted to ask is, so when you experience deja vu and you realize it's deja vu,
is it kind of like when you're dreaming and you realize you're dreaming, you kind of
pop out of it, you wake up? When you're in deja vu, does the same thing happen?
That's a very interesting question.
I haven't thought about that before, but I can say that when I personally experience
deja vu, which is quite rare these days, it seems to be a brief fleeting experience.
And so, as a memory researcher who studies deja vu, I love having the experience and
would like to be able to analyze it when it
happens to me. And I do feel, as you describe, that when it happens, it's so brief and fleeting
that by the time I start to analyze it, it's gone. And maybe it's because I'm trying to analyze it,
now it's gone and I can't analyze it in real time. You mentioned that most of the experiences that people have with
deja vu are places. When you look at the experiences, are there any other common
threads in terms of people not being in them or in them, they're perceived as negative experiences
or benign experiences or positive experiences, or they remind you of positive?
Is there any, are there any common threads?
The most common seems to be places with followed by next common elicitor of deja vu.
If you look across people's survey reports, conversations with people.
So things that other people said. So when you're in the midst of a
conversation, something someone is saying to you can be a common elicitor. And then followed by
infrequency of people's reports across survey studies, the feeling of you having said something
to someone else before. So the feeling that you have said something to someone else before.
So the feeling that you have said this exact thing before that you're saying right now in the midst of a conversation.
Yeah, I've had all of that.
But you know what I've never really felt I've had is where I felt like I knew what was going to happen next.
I can't remember a time when I felt like I knew what was going to happen.
It was just like a fleeting, I've been here before, I've done this before, I've said this before, and then it's gone.
And I share your experience.
I don't think that I have ever had the feeling of prediction before myself.
And like you, for me, it's very fleeting.
And I kind of wish I could have that experience so I could try to analyze it, but I don't think that I ever have. I hear it from many,
many people though, which is what has piqued my interest in trying to study it. It definitely
happens to a lot of people. How would you categorize, I mean, is this a flaw in the brain? highly similar to something that you've
experienced in your past and you're failing to recall the source of that familiarity.
But yet at the same time, you're also noticing the newness of the situation that you're in
and that it's probably that rare occurrence in the environment around you of newness and
oldness, which probably doesn't happen very often.
And so it causes this sort of brief hang up of, wait, is this new?
Is this old?
What is driving this?
And it captures your attention and prompts you to really try to search your memory.
I think what most of us do when we're in the midst of that type of experience is search
our memory.
We start looking in our memory for what's relevant
here. Is there something that this is reminding me of? Why is this feeling so familiar? And so I
think for most people, it's this rare environmental situation that's eliciting it. And it's probably
just indicating the normal operation of our memories. There are some cases, though, where it really can be
indicative of a glitch in the system, if you will. So very frequent deja vu can be an indicator of
certain types of seizure activity. And that has been known in the medical community for some time now. So if you're experiencing deja vu, say four times
a week, or maybe even more than that, there are people who will experience deja vu several times
a day. If it's happening that often, it could be an indication that there are some minor seizures
taking place in the brain. So why do you study it? What's the hope? What's the potential outcome
of understanding deja vu better? So I think that if we understood deja vu better, it would give us
a good glimpse into more fully understanding human memory as a whole. So I suspect that when deja vu happens, it's providing us this window
into how our cognitive processes are working in a way that they're probably usually working
under the surface. So you had mentioned earlier that in most situations, things are familiar,
and yet we don't have this striking sensation of deja vu.
One hypothesis that I have is that perhaps familiarity detection, this ability of our
minds to process whether something's familiar versus novel, is usually something that's just
rapidly occurring sort of underneath the surface and it's not really grabbing our attention. Do people in all cultures report déjà vu? That is a big question that I
currently have. And in fact, I have been collaborating with some colleagues to try
to answer that question because it's unknown. I can say that there are a number of research papers in different cultures
and languages on the topic of deja vu. And so it's not limited to, say, English-speaking or
French-speaking Western types of cultures. When I was visiting some colleagues in China several
years ago, I began speaking about some of my research
on deja vu and asking if these colleagues were familiar with what I was talking about. And they
began arguing with one another in Mandarin about what the appropriate term would be. And so they
all knew what I was talking about. But it wasn't clear that there was a single term that would
be used in Mandarin to describe the experience. So I think there's reason to suspect that it may be
a culturally universal experience, but there has not been a good research study yet that has fully
explored that. Well, I have always liked that experience of deja vu. And I know that there
will always be people like you who, you know, try to explain it scientifically and understand
what it is from a scientific point of view. But I like the magical and mystical sense that I have
of deja vu. And I think most people do. Anne Cleary has been my guest.
She's a professor at Colorado State University.
She researches deja vu, and she is author of the book, The Deja Vu Experience.
And there's a link to that book in the show notes.
Thank you, Anne.
Thanks, Mike.
This was fun.
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We all like to think that our actions and our decisions are all well thought out and reasonable,
at least most of the time. But truly, so much of what we do is driven by our
emotions. It is true now, it has been true throughout history, that what we do and what
other people do, we do because of how we feel. And that turns out to be a rather important and
fascinating part of who we are, according to Richard Firth Godby here.
Richard is one of the world's leading experts on emotions, particularly the emotion of disgust.
And he is author of a book called A Human History of Emotion, How the Way We Feel Built
the World We Know.
Hey Richard, so explain why this is such an important topic, the history of emotions and
how they drive our actions. The point is that emotions have a history and most history when
it's done, it's done mostly free from emotions. It's done as this event made that happen or that
person did that and then this happened. But actually all of that is seeped in emotions.
People do things because of
how they feel. And there is a whole field called the history of emotions that studies this, of
which I am part. I love that when you think about that sentence, that people do things because of
their emotions. When you think about that, I mean, that is so true. And yet it's such a stupid reason to do things much of the time.
It is.
But there have been studies that suggest you can't make a decision without feelings, that feelings are very important.
This idea that there is a thing called feelings or emotions, a thing called reason, and they are separate isn't really real.
We do something.
We sit where we sit on the bus because we enjoy sitting in that position.
Everything is feeling at some level.
That's really interesting when you think about it,
because so much of everything we do is driven by feelings,
and yet we like to think that we're very sensible, reasonable people,
and that we're making decisions in a very objective way.
And we're not. The thing is, though, it doesn't mean that the decision's wrong. There's this idea
if you make an emotional decision, it's wrong. Usually the emotion is what teaches you it's
right. When you do something, when you're younger and things go well, you have a pleasant sensation
because things go well, or because your parents said, said do that and you weren't punished for it so you go the right way um it doesn't mean you're making a
bad decision because you're using your feelings for it how people feel the emotions that people
hold inside it changes right over the year i mean the the way that i'm feeling now and the things i
like and the things that i feel are not the same things that somebody you know 10 000 years ago felt absolutely emotions
do change over time some emotions are unrecognizable today even other cultures now have some emotions
that westerners wouldn't recognize but um like what even if they even if they think they
do uh there's a german emotion called echo which is often translated as disgust that's what it is
but it isn't really it's slightly different it's not so much about feeling nauseous it's more about
avoiding harm it's more about not having something that overwhelms you that's too much, which kind of sounds like disgust.
But on the other hand, there's no it or you involved in echo.
So the translation is quite right.
And most cultures have something like that.
So the story you tell about the Crusades, which we all learned about in school and how emotions played a role in that is really interesting. So talk about the Crusades, which we all learned about in school, and how emotions played a role in that is really
interesting. So talk about the Crusades. Why did people go on the Crusades? For the longest time,
nobody had any idea. It was the idea it was a religious pilgrimage. Well, maybe it was the
idea that people wanted to invade somewhere and get the land, maybe. But one of the driving forces behind the Crusades, bizarre as it sounds, was love.
And it was a love for the Holy Land, a love for their religion, a love for their belief system,
and a need to express that love with terrible violence, sadly.
They took the people who are they were supposed
they thought they were defending who are fellow christians and they said we love that they're
fellow christians we need to go and help them or we need to defend them or the whole process
was pushed by love and when pope urban who made the first speech that kicked off what is often
called the first crusade he peppered his speech with phrases about charity and love and loving your fellow man.
And it's all throughout it.
He doesn't really talk about attacking and invading at all.
He talks about, let's go and do this act of love.
And so that decision, that strange decision, seems to have been a very emotional one. Since you are considered an expert on the emotion of disgust,
talk about disgust and why that's an important emotion.
Disgust is fairly a recent idea in the West, as we understand it now. If you go back,
we can go back right to the old Hebrew Bible. the hebrew bible when it was translated into latin
they came up with this word abomination and everything that you did that offended god
was an abomination no matter what it was it could be using slightly dodgy weights and measures or it
could be murdering someone all these things are abominations but even then there was abomination
which was very religious and then there were other things like aversion, which wasn't very religious.
Similar thing.
You're trying to avoid something that might harm you, like bad food or getting punched.
Abomination is the kind of thing they felt for witches because they were sinful and bad.
And then around the middle of the 17th century, some taste theorists needed and concept that was the opposite
of taste and there was this old word that had been lurking around disgust sort of borrowed from the
italians and the french that meant bad taste and so they start to use disgust to describe things
that were done in bad taste morally and aesthetically if you like um and it caught on it became this
new thing that was about anything yucky and horrid and any action that was immoral it
over the line that kind of thing so that discusses an example of something that deep down inside
going rotten fruit is probably evolved almost certainly an evolved response to stop us
getting disease. But how we understand it has changed over time, several times, just in English.
Throughout the history of emotions, are there any emotions that have more or less changed sides,
where once a good emotion is now a bad emotion, or a bad emotion is now considered a good emotion.
Anything like that?
Thomas Hobbes, the philosopher, was one of the first people to really champion the idea that if something felt bad, it was bad.
And if something felt good, it was good.
Before him, the idea was that an emotion was judged on what it did.
So if you felt fear because you're about to fall off a cliff then fear is a
good emotion you know it stops you falling off the cliff it's a positive um if you felt happy
because you just stolen something then that happiness was bad because you shouldn't feel
happy for stealing something so that itself has changed as for an emotion that's changed, probably desire. Desire for goods, for worldly goods, was for the longest time and still is in some places a big no.
No, no, no.
You do not desire things.
A lot of religions are based on the idea that you suppress your desires for things.
But now desire for things is kind of what makes the world go round.
Without desire for goods, we wouldn't have capitalism.
So that is now seen as much more of a positive thing than it ever was.
My sense is that we focus a lot more today on emotions than in the past.
But as you look at the history of emotions, where do you see us today? How do we, compared to the past, how do we
handle emotions differently? There's this thing that psychologists are starting to call
toxic happiness. And it's the idea that if you're not happy all the time, there's something wrong.
And we can use history in looking at how other ways of feeling have been understood to say
actually that's not the case sometimes it's okay to be down in fact it's a good thing to be down
sometimes sometimes it's okay to feel sad sometimes it's okay to feel angry sometimes
it's great to be happy sometimes happiness isn't appropriate you might want to think about that
and history is a great way to see that perceptions of feelings change over time and that we are in
a little pocket of this is how we're supposed to feel now. What's known as an emotional regime,
which is where you have rules that you're supposed to follow for how you express and
feel your emotions. When I think about this, and obviously I'm certainly no expert, but my sense is that,
as you said, we live in, you know, where everything's emotional now. Everybody's offended
by every little thing and everybody's so touchy and you can't say this and you can't say that
because you might offend somebody. And that it wasn't that long ago, and maybe it was also a long time ago,
or that none of this was even discussed, that, you know, if your feelings got hurt, too bad.
Yeah, I mean, when I was young, there was the old phrase, sticks and stones may
break my bones, but words will never hurt me. And these days, it seems that words can hurt you worse than any sticks and stones can.
It's part of this difference of perception
of how important feelings are that we've got now.
There's a colleague of mine who believes
that it's really, really started post 9-11.
They began before that because you had things like,
go back to Star Trek,
they had an emotion-sensing counsellor
on the bridge of the enterprise,
which is a clue that emotions are already starting to become important in culture.
But 9-11 really, really brought it home. People start to think about how they feel
and what feelings matter. It does seem though, when you look back throughout history and,
and maybe this is partly because of the way history is portrayed in films and in the books that talk about history, that people were more stoic, that they sucked it up, that they didn't wear their emotions on their sleeve, that they really emotions were secondary yeah there's also been times of great emotional upheaval the early modern period
from let's say 1500 to 17 1800 uh so many things changed in the world america was discovered
suddenly people realized that um there's half of a planet that they didn't know about um the ottomans
invaded and took over constantinople which meant suddenly goods were harder to come by and and
prices went up new diseases appeared everything that basically the book of revelation said was
going to happen seemed to be happening so that period in history was really marked by an over
overriding fear everybody was frightened of everything
terrified of their own shit so that was quite an emotional period as well that's partly why
things like the witch crazes happened and endless wars and revolutions started but it also got
people thinking about things and thinking about feelings and people like thomas hobbes saying you
know feelings are why we have disagreements we need people to make decisions at the end of this rather than everybody just killing each other all
the time which led to things like the enlightenment and democracy and that sort of thing because if
you think about it democracy is a form of government in which people actually care what
other people feel but yeah you have periods in history when areas and people are really emotional
and really in tune with feelings.
And right now it's kind of a sensitivity about identity,
about who we are and what we are,
and allowing that to run free rather than judging it
and becoming quite offended when it is, I think.
We almost live in an offense age rather than a fear age
Talk about because I I find this really interesting
this idea of
synthetic emotions that having emotions for things as
opposed to people or animals or whatever
It's known as effective computing and there's a lot of people trying to make machines feel things and recognize emotions.
And they're not doing a brilliant job, to be honest, because it's a very difficult thing to do.
And it's getting there.
But it's things like having artificial counselors.
So if somebody is suffering from depression, they could go to their Alexa and say, can you help?
And there's an artificial counsellor that could help them feel better by recognising the emotions in their voice and reacting appropriately and speaking.
And also just robots that have feelings, which is kind of terrifying but people are working on it the
idea of having a robot that can get angry and sad and amused how far have they gotten on that
they have got to the point where you can have an online artificial counselor and people don't know
in tests they don't know that they are speaking to an artificial
artificially feeling an artificially intelligent counselor not in person the voices aren't good
enough yet but with typing if they have a real counselor and an artificial one it's almost
impossible for people to know the difference so that's where they've gotten that uh recognizing
emotions in people they don't do very well to be honest they they keep trying there's also some pets that are so
lifelike in their responses these robot pets that people who have been demoing them have refused to
switch them off wait wait these are robot pets that people get so attached to that they really think or they really interact as if they're real pets.
They do all the things you would think a dog or a cat would do.
They come and greet you.
They snuggle up to you.
They go off on their own sometimes.
All these things. But it's interesting that you say they don't turn it off, and they clearly are forming some sort of emotional attachment
to what is essentially a thing that has no real feeling,
has no soul, has nothing.
There's a concept within the field of emotion research called essences,
which is basically the idea that we attribute essences to objects.
Children do it all the time with their favorite teddy bears and things and their favorite dolls they'll say
they'll treat it as if it's real they'll get very upset when it's not with them if you try and take
it away they'll act as if it is a person being taken away and that we attribute that we do that
with animals as well and people are doing it with these objects too we do it with our favorite things to be quite honest some of us do it with
cars or have done in the past yeah i have a car that i've had for you know almost 20 years that
it's time to get rid of and i feel bad about it like i'm like i'm gonna have to say goodbye to an old friend. I had a car.
I had a Toyota RAV4.
Very, very old car.
It just kept on going.
Nothing would phase it.
Then one day, 20 odd years into its life, it stopped working.
And I had to sell it to someone who wanted to take it away and turn it into an off-roader.
And I actually cried when I sold it.
And it's just a car.
So this idea of essence is we give things life, we give things reality.
Since we've been talking about this whole idea of how our actions and our decisions are driven by our feelings,
I would imagine that when our feelings get hurt, that that can also drive decisions and actions. So is there a good example in history
of how hurt feelings have really changed the game? Sometimes hurt feelings can change everything.
In the late 19th century, Japan was just coming to the end of a long period when it closed all
its borders to the rest of the world.
There was a small colony, a Dutch colony in Nagasaki, where they did a bit of trading.
But other than that, it was actually illegal to study foreign ways and people got in trouble for it.
And then one day, a fleet of American warships turned up.
They had larger cannons than the Japanese could believe existed.
And they said, we would like to trade with you because we know you've got some things we want.
And by like, we mean we're going to whether you like it or not, because our cannons are bigger than yours.
And this triggered a backlash in Japan based on the old samurai ideas of shame and the idea of being shamed and that shame at being so far behind
the rest of the world kind of give japan a bit of a kickstart they used it to press on to become
bigger to become ultimately who they are now one of the richest countries in the world
so that was a case of hurt feelings being used as an engine for change.
You know what I'd be really curious to know?
You were talking about people getting so attached to their artificial pets.
So what happens when the artificial pet actually breaks and can't be fixed?
When people mourn their artificial pet, is it like mourning a real pet?
Yeah, and I sometimes wonder because no real studies have been done about this because it's very new.
I'm curious about that because I have my suspicions that it would be very similar.
Because I don't think our brains know the difference.
We don't know the difference between a real cat and a fake cat that appears to be a real cat.
All we know is it's a pet and it seems to, it does things that seem to express emotions to us.
Seems that they seem to love us.
Well, it seems to me if your robot pet dies, you just change the battery.
Or you take it to the artificial pet repair store and they fix it.
Or you get another one. It's going to be the same. I don't know. It just seems very,
there's a thing. If you get another one, if the essence is with the one that you had is another
one, just like getting a new cat when your cat passes away. Yeah. And, and while that sounds
kind of crazy and silly, it really illustrates how important emotions are,
and as you've been discussing, how important they have been throughout history
and how important they are to pay attention to.
Richard Firth Godby here has been my guest.
He's one of the world's leading experts on emotions,
and he is author of a book called A Human History of Emotion,
How the Way We Feel Built the World We Know.
And there is a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes.
Thanks, Richard. Thanks for being here today.
No problem at all. It was great. Thanks.
It turns out flossing your teeth isn't just good for your dental health,
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A group of dentists and psychiatrists teamed up on a study and determined that our oral health
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