Something You Should Know - Why Hackers Hack and Ways to Protect Yourself & How AI Will Improve Healthcare

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today on Something You Should Know, a few skills that will instantly make you a better and safer driver. Then, hackers. They can hack any internet-enabled device in your home, even your refrigerator. I can hack a refrigerator and I can have that refrigerator in the background do ad fraud, where it's going on the internet and clicking ads, and you don't know. There's a million ways to make money off hacking any device. Then, in case you need one, I've got a really good reason to go to church this weekend. And how new technology can improve health care. And health care needs improving.

Starting point is 00:00:40 Because it used to be, you know, you'd have an hour with a patient for a new appointment, or at least 30 minutes for a return visit. Those numbers have gone to 12 and 7 minutes. So it's really led to this erosion, a serious degradation of the way medicine is practiced. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about.

Starting point is 00:01:16 And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit,

Starting point is 00:01:49 the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, we hit a milestone a while back that I completely forgot to mention that I

Starting point is 00:02:23 think's worth mentioning, and that is we crossed the 20 million download mark, which means over 20 million times the episodes of Something You Should Know have been downloaded. The fact that you are listening to me tell you that means you are counted somewhere in that 20 plus million people. So thank you. First up today, you probably think of yourself as a pretty good driver, but there's always room for improvement. And here are a few ways to improve your driving skills from the website cracked.com. First of all, don't have your own car visible in either of your side mirrors. Just angle those mirrors away from you until the point where your car is no longer visible in either one, and then you should have no more blind spots. Pay attention to traffic and not just the road signs. There is evidence that too many road signs

Starting point is 00:03:20 cause confusion and cause drivers to be complacent. The sign may say you have the right of way, but you will still be dead if you pull in front of that truck who doesn't slow down. High-tempo music makes you a worse driver. In the study, drivers listening to fast-paced music over 100 to 140 beats a minute were twice as likely to blast through red lights and had twice as many accidents as those who were listening to slower music or nothing at all. Always drive with your headlights on. The simple fact that your headlights are on

Starting point is 00:03:58 will reduce your chances of being in an accident by 32%. And that is something you should know. If you have a computer, you always have to be thinking of cybersecurity. There are so many stories of hackers and identity thieves who get into people's system and steal information or hold the system hostage or who knows what else they do. And yes, antivirus protection sure helps, but it isn't everything, because these hackers are always

Starting point is 00:04:32 trying to stay one step ahead. So say hello to Marcus Carey. He's what you call a white hat hacker, which he'll explain in just a minute. And he's gathered some of the best advice from some of the best hackers and put it in a book called Tribe of Hackers, Cybersecurity Advice from the Best Hackers in the World. Hey, Marcus. Thanks for having me. So explain what you do and how you got into this whole world of hacking. I was introduced to technology when I was 18, really. I joined the U.S. military. Through that time, I got the chance to work for NSA and all kinds of other government agencies. So that taught me to be pretty technically proficient. Just like a lot of hackers, I built systems. And then eventually, I started learning how to break into those systems. And so that's what's gotten me to this point. I've always been on the good guy side in the military and working for like Department of Defense and other government agencies. So I'm what they call a white hat hacker. Which means you do what now? So I started a company and we break into people's companies digitally. So we do

Starting point is 00:05:42 continuous penetration testing. That means people hire me to try to break into their networks. And you're pretty good at it. I've been told I'm pretty good at it. So I understand the concern and why companies want to be very careful about their data and all, but how concerned should I be if I have my antivirus program set up and I have my updates on and all that? How concerned should I be that hackers are trying to get into my office computer, my home computer, whatever? So I would say that the bad guys are very opportunistic. They're trying to break into as many things as they can. And the way they do that most of the time is by infecting websites that you normally go to. Those could be travel sites. Those could be news sites.

Starting point is 00:06:32 So they'll hang out on sites like that. They'll infect them with malware. And the whole intent is to eventually compromise your systems. So how does that work? When you say they infect them with malware, then what does that mean to me when I'm looking at this site? What is it I'm looking at that's infected with malware? A lot of times on the website that you're visiting, if the people that's running that website forget to patch something or they write bad code that allows

Starting point is 00:07:04 an attacker an entry point what the attacker will do is they'll put malicious code on it to exploit your home system so imagine if somebody took over a website a popular website you can just put one in your mind and they put a little bit of bad code on there uh to compromise your system and what your system would do when you're browsing at that site, it downloads a little snippet of code, it installs in your computer, and then from there, the attacker can control your computer. And I don't have to do anything other than look at that website. That's it. You look at the website, and that website is exploiting your browser in the background.

Starting point is 00:07:48 Aren't there protections, though, in place that are updated? Either Windows is updating it, or Apple's updating it, or the internet service provider has some sort of security to prevent it, or the browser company has some. It's like a battle, but aren't there layers of protection? So through my research, I've discovered that 66% of people don't patch ever. That means your home router, your home system, your browser, unless it's set to automated update, people don't do it. And so that's why hackers are having such a field day is because people don't update their systems how do you update a router or a modem or a wi-fi i wouldn't even know where how does that work yeah so it's quite technical uh in some cases you you have to go to your home router and you have to tell it to update the firmware

Starting point is 00:08:47 in many cases. Sometimes your ISP may update the firmware, but the truth is that there's thousands, if not millions of devices that are on the internet that aren't patched. And it's sad. It's a bad situation. So how on earth can you protect yourself if you're not even sure things are updating and you don't know how to update them and you don't know if the other people are updating? So where's the protection? Well, ask the people that sold you the device. If somebody sold you a refrigerator or internet connected, ask them, how do I update this from what we call patches?

Starting point is 00:09:24 How do I patch vulnerabilities? And you can ask that same question to your cable provider, to the people that sold you a computer. And also you can just get into forums and things of that nature. The Internet has a lot of answers. But also be careful what you download as well, because sometimes people are downloading software that's supposed to make them secure, but it's actually taking advantage of them as well. Why would someone want to hack my refrigerator? There's a million ways for somebody to make money off hacking a refrigerator. There's a lot of money to be made.

Starting point is 00:10:01 I'll give you one example. I can hack a refrigerator, and I can have that refrigerator in the background mine Bitcoin or something. I can have that refrigerator in the background do ad fraud where it's going on the Internet and clicking ads, and you don't know. There's a million ways for these hackers, these black hat hackers, to make money off hacking any device. Well, this is rather all very frightening to hear that people are being used and having their stuff stolen. Is there any sense of, like, if you were to randomly ask 100 people or look at 100 people's computers, what percentage of them have been hacked

Starting point is 00:10:45 and compromised? I mean, I think most people get compromised quite often. And sometimes we just don't know it. And things like antivirus and things of that nature can help you over time. But, you know, I recommend that people don't go to nefarious sites on the Internet, like the adult sites, some of the dating sites. Those are the sites that you're more likely to get compromised at. And yet, if you look at statistics, I mean, there's an awful lot of people that go to adult sites, porn sites. I mean, that's like one of the biggest industries on the internet. Yeah. And what's interesting about that market is that a lot of the people that traffic that kind of content don't care about where their money comes from. So they'll take advertising from anybody. And so there's this thing called malvertising where something looks like an ad, but it's actually an exploit.

Starting point is 00:11:47 And so if you go to legitimate sites like, say, ESPN or CNN or something like that, those sites have a higher threshold of content that they allow. But when you go to sites like a porn site, they're going to have a very low threshold for their advertising. And what happens is the users of those sites get compromised easily. There is no, like, buy this one thing and you're good, because it's always a changing landscape, right? That's absolutely correct. There's no silver bullet. The thing that we preach in the cybersecurity world is to use good hygiene, go to sites that you know, don't download software and install it from places that you don't know. Don't go to those adult sites. Those are the things that's going to keep you safe on the internet. There are plenty of people, though, who don't go on

Starting point is 00:12:41 adult sites or dating sites who still get infected and still get compromised. And I know I've seen things like, I once got a thing that looked like my bank's homepage, but it wasn't, and they were asking for information. So there's trickery going on. It's not just clandestine behind-the-scenes stealing of information and putting code on your computer. People are also sending out phishing emails and scamming people every which way. Yeah, certainly. Deception and trying to fool the human is the main reason why people are compromised.

Starting point is 00:13:19 So I recommend that people understand what a secure website really looks like. And just because a website is secure, you really have to look at the URL to make sure that it is your bank that you're actually going to. You're right. People can copy your bank's login perfectly and get you to put your credentials into there. But if you do get these phishing emails, always verify who that email is coming from because sometimes it's from a weird address that's not even related to your bank.

Starting point is 00:13:54 You know what I always wonder is, who's falling for the Nigerian Prince email that seems to inevitably come in every once in a while that you've won all this money and that you're going to get it from this Nigerian prince? It works a lot. And also, it's not just the Nigerian prince. There's promises of brides and marrying people.

Starting point is 00:14:17 There's a lot of these different things. I tell people if the offer is too good to be true, it probably is, especially randomly coming on the Internet. You're not that lucky. You know, you you'll be hit by lightning before any of those things are real. It almost sounds like antivirus and anti-malware software is almost a waste of time because the bad guys have already conquered that. Antivirus does get some stuff, but it's just like the flu vaccine, where it's not going to always prevent you from something that's going to be, you know, tweaked just a little bit, just like mutations in a virus. So it's not totally useless, but it's not going to

Starting point is 00:14:57 prevent you from stuff that somebody creates today. Have you ever been hacked? Everybody's been hacked. Even you? Absolutely, yeah. If anybody says they have never been hacked, they're lying. Well, that's certainly a sobering fact. I'm speaking with Marcus Carey. He is a white hat hacker and author of the book Tribe of Hackers, Cybersecurity Advice from the Best Hackers in the World. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast.

Starting point is 00:15:32 And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices,

Starting point is 00:16:11 and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf punt wine first while monk turned traveling medical investigator join me as i study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving god and we are not its favored children the heresies of redwine, wherever podcasts are available.

Starting point is 00:17:15 So, Marcus, what you're saying is kind of scary, and I know people, usually older people, who still won't go online and transact or buy anything or sign up for anything or go on Facebook for fear of the kinds of things you're talking about. And you're providing support for their argument, it seems, that maybe staying offline is the ultimate protection. I don't think so, because there is risk. But the truth is, even if you have a credit card compromise, the bank gives you the money back. They issue you a new card, and you go on about your life.

Starting point is 00:17:55 So there's not a lot of catastrophic life-altering changes that happens through internet purchasing. So the banks are losing billions of dollars on fraud, but they always reimburse you. So I don't think it's that—it's an inconvenience for sure, but it's not debilitating, and I think that you're fine. Is there any possibility, do you see any point in time where this problem will be solved, that there's now the silver bullet, there's now this thing that hackers won't be able to penetrate that's not going to happen um because even if you even if you got rid of all the people that's trying to break into your network definitely corporately uh there's people on the inside that are doing uh crazy stuff so uh i think what we're dealing with here is not a technological thing, because all the things I told you about here are human behavior things. Humans going to the wrong websites. Humans doing this.

Starting point is 00:18:51 Humans doing that. Humans clicking on the wrong things. So until we can make a perfect human, there's always going to be hacking. So let's review what people should do and not do to keep themselves safe? I would recommend that people use antivirus to catch everything that people know about. And there's actually new stuff that does, it's what they call anomaly-based, where they can look at something and say, this program is acting acting bad to detect malware so antivirus is actually way better than it used to be so uh use that use antivirus number two is set everything that you possibly can to do automatic updates of the software right that's number two and wait wait wait and and when you say everything you can think of well maybe i can

Starting point is 00:19:45 like what like help me think of all right cool so um think of anything that that anything that's connected to your internet i'm looking at my desk i have a i have a home pod i have a i have an ipad iphone i have a mac uh just think of everything that that possibly connects to the internet and you you should know how to update that so that's that would be your mission okay so let's let's look at that for a minute so i've got an iphone how would how in the world do i update it other than to just apple tells me there's a new software update and so I update it. Is that it? Yeah, absolutely. Yep. So when it tells you, hey, there's a new update available, update it. And also, you can actually go to any device that you have that connects to internet,

Starting point is 00:20:39 and you can actually subscribe to any program to use for their security updates. And they'll email you and tell you when there's new updates available and they'll tell you why they fixed it what it fixed like really technical information that's what you that's what you should do because i have i have a nest thermostat and i i've never updated it because i've never thought to update it because it's just a thermostat but what why would i need to update it? Yeah, a couple of things. Nest, those use Wi-Fi. So every once in a while, there's Wi-Fi vulnerabilities. Also, there's opportunities for people to use the app. So if I got your Nest username and password, I could possibly log into your Nest, right?

Starting point is 00:21:21 Yeah, so anything that's connected to the internet, you definitely want to make sure that you understand that this is important like uh i'm a big fan of gi joe back in the day and gi joe used to say knowing's half the battle so now that you know that anything connected to wi-fi should be patched you got to try to figure that out if i have antivirus software, oh let me first ask, is all antivirus software all pretty good if it's a name brand antivirus software? Are they all pretty much on the same level or are some better than others? I would actually go look at consumer reviews of those products and because the consumers are absolutely brutally honest, there is no name brand thing. Some work, some don't.

Starting point is 00:22:10 Some big brands are advertising only. It's just like anything else. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. And if I have antivirus software on my computer and it's running all the time, is there ever a need to do a scan after the fact because something might have slipped through? Or is that not – how does antivirus software work? Does it ever let things in and then you need to get it later?

Starting point is 00:22:35 Or should it always be the gatekeeper at the door keeping things out? Yeah, you shouldn't have to scan a lot anymore. But I'll give you advice so it's this thing called malwarebytes and it's you can get it for free that's the only kind of like endorsement that i'll give it works uh so um it totally works there's a free version of it there's also a paid version i don't have any affiliation with them but i can tell you that i've had a lot of family and friends use it, and it just works. It's called Malwarebytes.

Starting point is 00:23:09 That's B-Y-T-E-S. So anything that we haven't talked about that you think is really important that people really need to pay attention to to stay safe? The big thing that people can do as well is don't use passwords. Don't reuse passwords because there's so many websites. And the easy thing to do is use the same password over and over again. However, if one of those websites gets breached, they can use your email address and password on any site that they want to. So do not reuse passwords, even if you added some characters onto that main password. But the easiest thing to do would to use a password manager.

Starting point is 00:23:52 Don't reuse passwords on every site. Which everybody does. A lot of people do it. I've done it before myself. Sure. And isn't the most popular password the word password? Yeah, password 1, 2, 3, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So you, if you do a password limp, so if it's a six passwords, it's one, two, three, four, five, six. So yeah, definitely,

Starting point is 00:24:19 uh, people, uh, choose terrible passwords and reuse passwords. Reusing passwords is kind of like the worst thing that you can do. Yeah, and yet it's so inconvenient not to. It's so inconvenient not to use the password that's in your head, and it's hard not to do it. The first option I would do is I would use a password manager. One of them is called LastPass and one's called 1Password. Those are the two popular ones that you could use. But also, like I said, if you just got a little memo thing and just wrote down unique passwords for each site, you'll be pretty safe. Just don't let nobody get the memo pad,

Starting point is 00:25:02 right? Well, it is interesting to think that something that we all use every day is so vulnerable to trouble that, and the story you've told and the picture you've painted, it makes it probably seem to some people anyway, more trouble than they thought. I don't want to scare everyone because there's tons of countermeasures that take place when, you know, you've had your identity stolen, you've had all the, just realize that this is the reality that we live in, but I don't worry too much about it myself. Well, that's encouraging. If you're not worrying about it a lot, maybe I won't worry about it as much as I thought I should. Marcus Carey has been my guest. His book is called Tribe of Hackers

Starting point is 00:25:48 Cybersecurity Advice from the Best Hackers in the World. And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Marcus. Thank you very much, Michael. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

Starting point is 00:26:03 looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars.

Starting point is 00:26:43 Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong?,

Starting point is 00:27:16 which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. When people talk about health care, or specifically when they talk about their personal health care, it seems that they seldom talk about how great it is. There's a lot of dissatisfaction with health care today, and yes, much of it is about the cost,

Starting point is 00:28:10 but also about the quality. There does seem to be this odd relationship that as more machines and technology enter health care, the more dissatisfaction there is. In part, it seems that more technology means less human contact, which makes you wonder about the future because there's more and more technology coming into health care. Eric Topol is a medical doctor who sees things changing for the better because of artificial intelligence. Eric is author of the book Deep Medicine, How Artificial Intelligence Can Make Medicine Human Again. Hi, Eric.

Starting point is 00:28:41 Welcome. Thanks very much, Mike. Great to be with you. So define what you mean by deep medicine. What does that mean? Well, it's opposite to shallow medicine, which is the way it's practiced today, where it's full of errors and little time with patients and little context. And so, in fact, they're all interdependent with the burnout and depression among doctors. We've got pretty much a sorry state.

Starting point is 00:29:07 Deep medicine, being the opposite, represents the understanding of each person, individual at a deep level, all the different layers of information, using deep learning, a subtype of artificial intelligence, to get us to deep empathy so we can really have a very important trust, precious relationship between patients and doctors. So why do you think or how do you think we got to where we are today where medicine is practiced as you call it shallow medicine? How did we get here? The last decade and then some was related to electronic health records, which was perhaps the greatest fiasco of all, because that was set up for billing and not in any way taking into

Starting point is 00:29:54 account the importance of the relationship and the face-to-face, eye-to-eye contact, the human bond. So that was even more destructive. But along the way, there have been other hits like the whole relative value units. The squeeze has been going some time because it used to be, you know, you'd have an hour with a patient for a new appointment or at least 30 minutes for a return visit. Those numbers have gone to 12 and 7 minutes. And during those limited minutes, there's keyboard punching, there's data cleric function. So it's really led to this erosion, a serious degradation of the way medicine is practiced.

Starting point is 00:30:35 So then what's the solution? I mean, it would seem that problems in health care are getting worse, not better, and it seems that there's more technology than less. So what's going on? Well, we have a way out. And interestingly, Mike, it could actually make things worse, but that's the whole use of deep learning. So there's enough information now on each person, terabytes, not just their electronic health record, but their scans and their labs, and increasingly so their sensors that they would wear for things like heart rhythm or glucose or sleep or all sorts of things. And then their genome and their gut microbiome. And so

Starting point is 00:31:19 we're seeing the data expansion for each person, big data, just keeps growing, and there's no human being that can assimilate, that can process and crystallize all that data. So we need the tools of AI. We need deep learning, the particular type that will ingest all that data and then provide feedback to the doctor or to the patient directly. So that's one big issue is teeing up the data for the ability to be more accurate in diagnosis and prevention and treatment. Another is, of course, eliminating keyboards. If we do that, they're the common enemy of both patients and doctors, and that's imminent.

Starting point is 00:32:03 I mean, we're already seeing that start to happen in certain parts of the world, and it'll eventually occur throughout the U.S. Why are keyboards such an enemy? Well, because in those limited minutes together, there's no eye contact. And it's disillusioning that you finally get this appointment, which in the U.S. is average over three weeks to get

Starting point is 00:32:24 whether you're a primary care doctor. And then that doctor doesn't even look at you. And here you are, you've got symptoms that are serious. That pretty much sums up how the erosion, how bad it is right now. And so if you have voice, just a conversation that's made into a synthetic note, the notes are far better, as it turns out, than the keyboard pecking and the 80% of which is cut and pasted with errors that are propagated from one note to the next.

Starting point is 00:32:59 So we're going to get more accurate notes without effort and no data clerk function for doctors and ability to get back to empathy and care. I mean, what we've lost is the care in health care. So that term is almost meaningless because it's very mechanical, robotic, without the compassion, without the real presence. That's what we need to get back. But how does adding more technology, AI and all that, make it more human? It sounds like it would make it less human. Well, that's the counterintuitive, that's the paradox, that technology could make things worse

Starting point is 00:33:40 with electronic health records. Here it can make it better. It could also make it worse, too, because with it, there's going to be a lot more productivity, seeing more patients, reading more scans, reading more slides. All those things could be the way administrators, the bean counters, use this powerful tool. On the other hand, if it's used to say, I'm not going to see more patients, I'm going to spend more time with each of them, and I'm actually going to see them,

Starting point is 00:34:10 because I'm not going to be working any data clerk functions anymore. And so if doctors and the medical community stand up for patients, which remains to be seen, it's going to require a lot of activism. That's where technology can enhance humanity. And it's a very exciting opportunity. It may be the most important one we'll see for decades or generations, maybe even ever, because there's hardly been something in technology that's this powerful and could be promoting the human bond. How do you know, or why do you think that this idea and this trend will make things better when it does seem that, at least from the patient's perspective, quality of health care has been getting worse, not better?

Starting point is 00:35:04 Well, Mike, you know, it can only get better at this point. It's so bad. I mean, we have 50% of clinicians are in the burnout phase, 20-some percent have clinical depression. There's a record number of suicides. Medicine has lost its way. The medical community is fed up and disenchanted. Most doctors, if you talk to them today, tell their kids, don't go into medicine in the U.S.

Starting point is 00:35:29 I mean, we're at a sorry state. So, you know, we're looking for a solution that will make things better. And here it's a pretty comprehensive case for how this could work. It doesn't mean it will work. I'm acknowledging that things could get worse. It's just that it's hard to imagine it could get much worse. We need a solution. We need a rescue.

Starting point is 00:35:51 And I don't know of another one at this point that will turn this around. But so what do we do? Do we just wait around for this technology to be invented? No, no, it's all invented. I mean, we have deep learning algorithms that are in radiology, pathology, ophthalmology. I've already discussed the natural language processing for voice, synthetic notes. I mean, there's over 25 companies with FDA-approved deep learning algorithms.

Starting point is 00:36:19 It's all happening right now. The point is, what are we going to do with it? Are we just going to have increased productivity where radiologists read more scans, pathologists read more slides, and on and on? Or are we going to take advantage of this flywheel where patients take on more charge, where they have doctorless ability to do diagnoses for things like urinary tract infection, ear infection, skin rashes, skin lesions, and a long list of common things that are not serious necessarily.

Starting point is 00:36:50 And we also decompress the work of doctors by things like elimination of keyboards, about having the data all teed up, about primary scan, reading, slide reading by machines. So all of the technology is in place. or scan, reading, slide, reading by machines. So all of the technology is in place. A lot of it is getting validated right now. The question is, where is it going to lead us to? But when you talk to people about health care, often the things they say they wish were different can't be solved by more technology.

Starting point is 00:37:22 As you pointed out, it takes three weeks to get an appointment, and when you go see your doctor, you're made to wait 90 minutes past your appointment time because they're running late. Fix that. We don't need any technology to fix that. Well, good luck in fixing that if you don't decompress the workload of doctors today by outsourcing to machines and offloading the burden to patients who are willing to take on more responsibility. Otherwise, it's not going to get better. It could even potentially get worse. Because theoretically, the technology would free up more time for doctors.

Starting point is 00:38:02 Right. That is, the amount of time that is now spent in administrative tasks is twice as much as actually seeing patients. Plus, there's lots of conditions, of all the common conditions that are not serious, that can be diagnosed without doctors. And that's really exciting. I mean, already in the UK, urinary tract infections are being diagnosed without a doctor, without seeing a doctor. Here in the U.S., we're seeing children's ear infections.

Starting point is 00:38:32 These are common things that occupy the latter pediatricians, the urinary tract infections, primary care doctors. So these things can be done efficiently, at least as accurate, if not better, through algorithms. And so we have to start taking advantage of that because we have a lack of technology being leveraged as it should be, as it could be. And it doesn't always have to be doctors. It can be nurse practitioners, nurse clinicians, physicians' assistants. And as we've seen already, there's an FDA-approved ability to do diabetic retinopathy screening without any clinician. It can be done by the receptionist in a primary care doctor's office. That's important because 50% of diabetics never have screening for retinopathy,

Starting point is 00:39:22 which is a leading cause of blindness, and it's preventable. So these are examples of artificial intelligence algorithms that not only diminish the workload of doctors, but hand it off to either patients or non-clinicians, and that's exciting. Is there resistance to this? Well, there always is resistance to any change in medicine. Here it will be amplified because it will have impact on things like reimbursement, on lack of control. Some of these things require education and training. So there's resistance and there will be considerable resistance to change as always has been the case in healthcare. But if there's a better way out of the situation we're

Starting point is 00:40:07 in right now, I'm just not aware of it. Are you hopeful? I'm very hopeful. I'm very optimistic. And I think that we can really use technology in a meaningful way to bring back the human bond. And that sounds counter to many people. and we've already seen how that has not occurred in health care, but there is a big chance here, and I hope we don't miss it. And what's the next step? Is it just, we just wait for it to be implemented, or is there, what do we do? Well, there's a call out to get doctors and the medical community to get organized, to not let what has happened in the past, like I've mentioned, electronic health records, relative value units, health maintenance organizations,

Starting point is 00:40:55 and all the other real blunders that there was no counter by the medical community. So there's a call out to get that going and to get solidarity. And if we can do that, just as all these technology validations, the progress that's happening concurrently, then maybe we can prevent the further squeeze. And that's the big maybe. And we'll see how it plays out. Well, as you said, for a lot of people, health care seemingly has gotten quite a bit worse over the years, so let's be hopeful that the things you're talking about will make a real positive difference.

Starting point is 00:41:36 Eric Topol has been my guest. He is a medical doctor and author of the book Deep Medicine, How Artificial Intelligence Can Make Medicine Human Again. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Eric. Okay, thank you. Will you be going to a house of worship this weekend? There are some really good reasons to do that.

Starting point is 00:41:59 A study shows a super strong link between attending religious services and living longer, and the effect is especially large for women. Basically, females who attended church once a week had a 26% lower risk of death compared to those who never went. Those who go more than that get an extra pat on the back. Their risk was reduced 33%. More casual churchgoers still got a boost with a 13% lower risk of death. Why is this? Going to church, it seems, can lead to higher rates of social support, increased optimism, and lower rates of depression. It can also promote more self-discipline and a sense of purpose in life.

Starting point is 00:42:46 Lots of Americans see these advantages. 55% of the country goes to a church or synagogue more than once a month. And that is something you should know. We publish new episodes every Monday and every Thursday morning. And to make sure you get all of them, subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen. Subscribing is always free. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated

Starting point is 00:43:23 Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

Starting point is 00:43:56 But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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