Something You Should Know - Why Some People Choke Under Pressure & The Fascinating History of Food

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

We all want to save energy and money - but does doing things like turning off lights or unplugging appliances really do much or are there other things you could do that have more impact? This episode begins with a look at what does and doesn’t do much to conserve energy and reduce your utility bill. https://www.pnas.org/content/107/37/16054 Some people seem to excel under pressure while other choke. Why? Listen as I talk with Dane Jensen, a consultant and CEO of Third Factor (https://www.thirdfactor.com), an organization that studies the science of performance - and he is author of the book The Power of Pressure: Why Pressure Isn't the Problem, It's the Solution (https://amzn.to/3gBeDrJ). Dane explains that there are different types of pressure we all face and how to best use the pressures of life to do our very best.  Is a tomato a fruit or vegetable? Actually, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on this question. This is just one of the fascinating stories about food that I discuss with Matt Siegel author of The Secret History of Food (https://amzn.to/2WhggE9). Listen and discover why vanilla is anything but bland and boring, how food has been used as a weapon in war, why breakfast cereal is so popular and much more.  Why do people blush? It turns out everyone blushes although some people show it more than others. Listen as I explain what causes blushing, how it helps and what Charles Darwin had to say about blushing. https://www.scienceabc.com/humans/humans-blush-happens-within-us-blushing-reason-behind.html PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really enjoy The Jordan Harbinger Show and we think you will as well! Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start OR search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.  T-Mobile for Business the leader in 5G, #1 in customer satisfaction, and a partner who includes benefits like 5G in every plan. Visit https://T-Mobile.com/business JUSTWORKS makes it easier for you to start, run and grow a business. Find out how by going to https://justworks.com For more information on fire safety products, safety tips and educational activities you can do at home with your family visit https://firstalert.com/firepreventionmonth   https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! Visit https://www.remymartin.com/en-us/ to learn more about their exceptional spirits! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, why saving energy around your house is harder than you think. Then the best strategies for handling those peak pressure moments in life when there's a lot at stake. We have to really consciously be able to go in and redirect our attention from what's at stake to what's not at stake. When I'm in those peak pressure moments, I want to be really clear on what are the things that really matter to me in my life that won't change regardless of the outcome of this event.

Also, why do people blush? What's the point? And the fascinating stories about some of the foods you eat, like tomatoes. In 1893, the Supreme Court actually had to rule whether tomatoes were fruit or vegetable. But this was contested for something like six years in different courts before making its way to the Supreme Court, who finally ruled. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world,

looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

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The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi. Welcome. It's time for another episode of Something You Should Know. We've all had it drilled into us from the time we were young that it's important to save energy. And you probably go around the house occasionally and turn out lights and things like that. And when it comes to saving energy, people rate things like turning off the lights as an important way to reduce energy consumption. But in fact, household lights use very little energy.

In a survey, Americans in 34 states were quizzed on effective ways to conserve, and here are some of the results. People tend to overrate things like unplugging appliances when not in use, or driving more slowly on the highway, or household recycling, as effective ways to reduce energy consumption. Although they may be good things to do, none of them does very much in terms of reducing energy use. People tend to underestimate things like driving more fuel-efficient cars, using more efficient appliances, switching to room air conditioners instead of central air,

and weatherproofing their home, which combined, all those things combined can actually save a lot of energy, as much as 30%. There's also something called single action bias, where people tend to focus on one action to help solve a perceived problem, and in the case of conserving energy, it is often an action that has little impact, like switching off the lights. It doesn't hurt, it just doesn't do as much as people think. And that is something you should know.

You often hear people say things like, I don't do well under pressure, or I thrive under pressure. So what does that mean? What is pressure, and why do some of us handle it better than others? How can we all handle it better? Well, what you're about to hear is really interesting. You see, there are different kinds of pressure, and they need to be treated differently.

According to Dane Jensen, he is a consultant, coach, and teacher. He's the CEO of Third Factor, an organization that studies the science of performance, and he's author of the book, The Power of Pressure. Why pressure isn't the problem, it's the solution. Hi, Dane. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here. So everyone has been in the position of having to perform under pressure. We know what it feels like. But what is it exactly? What is that feeling of pressure that we feel when the stakes are high? Yeah, so this was one of the first questions that came up when I started asking people

a question that's really near and dear to my heart, which is, what's the most pressure you've ever been under? And this is a question that's really fascinated me for the past three years. And of course, one of the first things people would say back to me is, well, what do you mean by pressure? And in particular, people really wanted to understand, you know, are you talking about pressure here? Or are you talking about stress? And I think one of the interesting things about those two terms that are very related, is that different people have their own understanding of what constitutes stress versus what constitutes pressure. Where I've sort of coalesced in terms of the similarities

and the differences between stress and pressure is really around the metaphor of, you know, a high stakes sporting event, like a basketball game. And so I have the benefit of being married to a wonderful woman who is a huge fan of the Toronto Raptors, which is where we're based. And when we are watching a Raptors game late in the season or in the playoffs, my wife finds that experience so stressful that if the game is really close in the fourth quarter, she has to leave the room and get updates by text message, right? That the stress is palpable for her. But you see, for me, that's not pressure, right? That is stress. Pressure is playing in the game. Pressure is being on the court. And so for me, what kind of differentiates pressure from stress is do I have the ability to impact the outcome? And the outcome has to be something that's pretty darn important. Well, you know, and now you're getting right at the heart of, well, what creates pressure? I mean, you know, different people experience pressure in very different situations, but, you know, and now you're getting right at the heart of, well, what creates pressure? I mean, you know, different people experience pressure in very different situations. But, you know, there really are two things that have to be present for any human being to experience pressure. And you just hit the first one, which is it has to be important. So the outcome of the situation has to matter. Because, of course, if I don't care about the outcome of the situation, I'm not going to feel any pressure. But the second thing that has to be there is uncertainty. Because no matter how

much I care about the outcome, if the outcome is certain, it's also not going to create pressure. You know, we feel pressure as human beings in these situations where the outcome really matters to me, and I don't know how it's going to turn out. And so those are really, you know, one of the kind of things that I've really been interested in is can we get pressure down to a bit of an equation? And those are really the two, you know, first parts of the pressure equation for me. Pressure is a function of the importance of an outcome multiplied by the uncertainty of an outcome. And I actually think the multiplication sign is important, right? You know, if I buy a $5 lottery ticket, yes, that's highly uncertain, but it's being multiplied

against a relatively low, you know, set of stakes at five bucks. If I'm getting wheeled down a hospital corridor for a life-saving operation that has a 95% success rate, you know, yes, the uncertainty is only five percent, but the importance is so high that the multiplication ends up, you know, creating a lot of pressure. So this idea that people have where some people identify as I do well under pressure, other people identify as, you know, I fall apart under pressure. I don't handle pressure well. What are they saying? What does all that mean? One of the things that we want to

understand about pressure is that it's not one thing. We talked about importance. We talked about uncertainty. The one that we didn't touch on as much as volume, which is really the multiplier for importance and uncertainty, just how many tasks, decisions, and distractions am I facing? Those three variables of importance, uncertainty, and volume, they can create, they can combine in a bunch of different ways. But principally, we find that they combine in two main ways. There are peak pressure moments, and these are kind of violent collisions of importance and uncertainty. This is the championship basketball game, the entrance exam, the job interview, the big sales pitch. But then we also have what I kind of call the long haul of pressure, which is, you know, maybe it's not such acute importance or uncertainty,

it's just really grinding volume mixed in with importance and uncertainty. And so one of the things that I really believe is that being good at pressure actually isn't one thing, it's two things, because there are people that are really good at peak pressure moments, like the people you want to turn to in a crisis, but actually their lives over the long haul, just the day in, day out of, you know, get the kids to practice, get them back. You know, that part is the part that they find particularly draining or it's disordered. And in fact, many of the highest performers in peak pressure, you know, Navy SEALs, elite athletes, they actually have very disordered lives over the long haul. And then we have people that are phenomenal at standing up over the long haul, but, you

know, would rather a hole open up in the ground and swallow them than go on stage in front of 500 people or be, you know, the first phone call in a crisis. And so, you know, I think there is this notion a little bit, Mike, of being, you know, pressure ambidextrous. You know, I think of being quote unquote good at pressure as can I, you know, get out what I need to get out under peak pressure. And at the same time, can I weather the long haul in a way that doesn't, you know, deplete my energy and satisfaction along the way. So when it comes to the peak pressure, though, and a championship basketball game example that you used is a good example for my question is,

in reality, that championship basketball game is just another basketball game. There's nothing different about the game. The game's the same. It's what's going on in your head that's different. Exactly. I think that's a really in your head that's different. Exactly. I think that's a really important insight, Mike, which is I think we often externalize pressure like, wow, this is a really high pressure situation. Pressure is a subjective experience. It is an internal response to a situation that our brain has coded with a certain level of importance and uncertainty. And so two people can be in the exact same situation.

One person can be going, hey, I'm really excited. And the other person's going, hey, I'm really nervous. So you're absolutely right. Pressure is an internal experience. And it's an internal experience that involves a bunch of different internal systems. There is a mental component to pressure, which is how am I talking to myself? There's an emotional component to pressure. How am I feeling in the midst of all of this? And there's, of course, a physical component to pressure too, which is, you know,

what's the physiological response that is being triggered by all of this? And there's a couple of different points of view on this. You know, this is not settled science in terms of, okay, you know, what's the first mover is that we first start going, oh my gosh, this really matters to me. This is really important. I can't screw this up. And then that translates to activating our sympathetic nervous system, which, you know, raises our heart rate and increases our breathing rate and, you know, tenses up our muscles and produces adrenaline. Or there are others who kind of go, actually, you know, the response to pressure is precognitive. Our body starts to respond. We get butterflies, our heart, you know, and then our brain goes, oh my gosh, you know,

I'm starting to lose control here. So it's not entirely clear exactly what starts the chain reaction, but once it gets started, that internal experience can feel empowering. You know, it can feel like I'm really energized. I have what I need to take this on. It can also feel completely overwhelming. I'm choking right now. Oh my gosh, my hands are shaking. My knees are weak. And so I think a big part of what is it that determines whether somebody is quote unquote good under pressure or not is how do I respond once that internal feedback loop starts ramping up? And so what's the prescription then if your hands are shaking and you're telling yourself, am I good enough? I don't think I'm good enough.

How do you, in that moment, do something different, if anything, to stop that? And so this is where most of the interventions actually bring us back to what's causing the pressure in the first place, right? So if pressure is a function of how important this is to me, how uncertain the outcome is and how much volume I'm having to, you know, carry along the way, you want to go back to those three things because that's what's going to allow you to get back to center. And so, you know, to use your example of a championship basketball game versus a regular season basketball game. What's different between those two situations?

The importance, right? It's the degree to which you have coded this situation, the outcome of this situation as important. And so one of the things that you're likely going to want to do in that situation is, yes, in the long haul, in the lead up to that championship game, it actually pays big dividends to remind yourself how important this is. Because that's what's going to give you the energy to put in the prep work, right? That's where hard work comes from. We're leading up to this game. This really matters to me. I'm going to be early to practice. So remembering how important something is, is great over the long haul. When we're actually in the peak pressure of that championship game, this is where importance can flip and become a bit of an enemy as opposed to a friend.

Because if I'm walking onto the floor and all I can think about is how important this is to me, oh my gosh, you know, this is a referendum on four years of work. And if we lose this game, everybody's going to think I'm a failure, right? If I carry all that importance into the performance, it's debilitating. And so, you know, as we approach peak pressure moments, in particular, those where importance begins to take on, you know, a bit of a life of its own and start to expand from just, hey, this is a basketball game to this is a referendum on how successful am I as a person? Am I a winner? We have to really consciously be able to go in and redirect our attention from what's at stake to what's not at stake. When I'm

in those peak pressure moments, I want to be really clear on what are the things that really matter to me in my life that are not at play right now, that won't change regardless of the outcome of this event. And this is something I heard repeatedly in the interviews that I've done with elite athletes, in particular Olympic and Paralympic athletes, is as the Olympic Games approaches, the importance that gets attached to the outcome starts to become existential, right? I'm going to be a failure for the rest of my life. And the key interventions are, I got to unpack that and go, listen, at the end of the day, yes, this matters to me. And at the same time, regardless of how this goes,

here are the five things in my life that won't change. And that stability, that ability to unpack importance in the moment is a really important skill as we get into some of those peak pressure moments. Yeah. Well, I like that because that's something anybody can do in the moment is to start thinking about the things in their life that have nothing to do with this championship game that are still good and wonderful and that distracts you from the pressure of the thoughts that you had. I like that a lot. I'm talking with Dane Jensen. His book is The Power of Pressure.

Why pressure isn't the problem, it's the solution. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes. And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped,

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So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now

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There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Dane, that other kind of pressure, that pressure that almost sounds like the grind, it's not the championship game. It's like me, I've got three podcasts to get out every week and sometimes it goes okay. And sometimes I'm feeling a lot of pressure because it isn't going okay, but they still have to get out. That's the kind of pressure you're talking about, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. And my only solution to that is just buck up and get going. I mean, there's nothing else I can do. I can't not do it. Well, you know, and, and, and, you know, buck up and do it, you know, that's the skill of direct action, which is, which is a very

important skill under pressure, which is instead of seeking out things that we think will alleviate pressure, but actually just create a sense of helplessness. Like, you know what, I'm just going to distract myself for an hour and, you know, go surf Netflix or, you know, doom scroll through Twitter, you know, things that we think are going to alleviate pressure, what they end up doing is just magnifying pressure because we haven't actually acted on the sources of our pressure. So, you know, I think you've hit on absolutely one of the key strategies, which is, you know, when we feel pressure, take action on the things that are creating pressure, in particular over the long haul. But, you know, I would add a little bit to that, Mike, which is

often the dominant source of pressure over the long haul is volume, right? If peak pressure moments are about importance and uncertainty, the long haul is about volume. And I think when we're facing volume over the long haul, there's kind of this tension that exists, or at least these two kind of imperatives that kind of exist on a bit of a continuum. The first is, if we're going to handle the long haul, we have to build the physical capacity to handle volume. And, you know, I am not a physiologist. I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not an expert on exercise. But the research is pretty clear on this, that there are three things that we need to be doing really well if we're going to handle the long haul. We need to be getting adequate sleep,

seven hours a night. We need to be making relatively healthy eating choices, in particular eating choices that smooth the blood glucose over the course of the day so that we don't have peaks and crashes in energy. And the third is that we're getting in 30 minutes of movement a day. The research is pretty clear that if we replace 30 minutes of sitting with 30 minutes of walking, it has a noticeable impact on our reactivity and our emotional stability under pressure. But the second thing that I would say is once we've created the capacity to handle volume, how we use that capacity is the corollary to this, which is just because I've created this strong, stable platform that can hold a lot, I still need to be ruthlessly eliminating the volume that is counterproductive. Isn't it interesting how when people are under pressure and either peak pressure or

the grindy kind of pressure that we were talking about, how people are inclined to do the thing that will make it worse? I talk about this as the paradox of pressure, which is, you know, our default responses to pressure in many ways rob us of the capacity to handle pressure. There's a bunch of stuff that happens when we get put under pressure. And many of those impulses are counterproductive. So, you know, just as an example, physiologically, when I get put under pressure, or my body starts to get activated, I can absorb less and less information, right, we start to get tunnel vision, our prefrontal cortex actually starts to gate out auditory information, visual information. And, you know, the original biological reason for this was the goal under pressure was to focus on, you know, the existential threat that's in front of you, this proverbial saber-toothed tiger, and to kind of tune out

all the distractions. You know, the challenge is in a modern world, actually, when I'm under pressure, what I really want is to be able to actually notice more of what's going on in my environment. When I get hijacked in a sales meeting by a hostile question, you know, I don't want to just zoom in on that guy. I want to notice the three people around the table who are actually nodding in support of my position. But when I get under pressure, I get tunnel vision, right? All I can see is this guy who disagrees with me, and I'm going at this guy to try and convince him when I got four allies around the table that I can't notice because my field of vision is narrow. And so I think, you know, this notion that you raise of like our impulses, our defaults under pressure can sabotage us is totally true.

And at the same time, that word default, our default responses, that does a lot of heavy lifting. Right. Because there is an entirely different set of responses to pressure that are actually profoundly positive. Right. You look at where exceptional things happen for human beings, right? Where do more world records get set than anywhere else in sport? They happen at the Olympics. Why? Because there's pressure, right? Pressure is energizing, right? So I think there really is this double-edged sword to pressure, which is if our default responses dominate, right? If we are unconscious in the face of pressure, when we just go with, you know, the hard wiring, you know, pressure can lead to very unproductive responses. And

over and over again, when we talk to people who have accomplished incredible things, it was actually the energy under pressure, like that roiling turbulent energy. That's what gives us the capacity to handle the highest pressure situations that we're in. It's actually the solution to itself if you can channel it appropriately. And yet, there are a lot of people who create pressure in their own lives by, and the typical example is, you know, you have a term paper in school and you've known about it all semester you wait till two days before it's due to start working on it because that creates an incredible amount of pressure that was needless but some people say well i do better under pressure or i need the

deadline or i whatever and they're creating pressure that they didn't need to create and and thinking maybe like your example of, well, people set records in the Olympics. I'll do better with the crunch. Well, and it might be true for them, right? So you say creating pressure that they don't need, but maybe they do need it. You know, I think the, you know, when we talk about pressure is where the energy comes from. Until I feel the pressure, I might not have the energy to write the term paper or, you know, study for the exam. It's not until I feel that pressure that I actually get the energy to do it. And so when I talk about this notion that, you know,

pressure isn't a problem, it's the solution, that example is kind of exactly what I'm, you know, what I'm referring to, which is actually, it's the pressure that gives that person the energy to lean into it. In your work, have you ever met anybody who, I guess the best way to ask it is who can play in the championship game as if it's just a regular game and there's no difference? Yes. There are some people who are just genetically predisposed to not feel pressure or to not feel fear or any of the other kind of close cousins of pressure. And I think that genetic predisposition is a big contributor to the people who end up being in the top 0.00001% in the world, right? Michael Phelps talks about the fact that he doesn't really feel pressure. His coach, Bob Bowman, says he's never seen him choke. There are a few elite hockey players that I've worked with that will say, you know what, once I'm on the ice, it's just another game. It's interesting to me, I'm a big believer that

we can improve our ability to handle pressure. And I've seen it firsthand myself. I've seen it in business. I've seen it in sport. I've seen it in academia, the research with support that we can actually reduce our stress sensitivity, you know, through biological markers like cortisol and adrenaline. When people practice, you can actually reduce the amount of adrenaline and cortisol that gets produced in a high-pressure situation by training better responses. So this is absolutely something that you can work on, you can practice, and you can improve on. Well, you've certainly shed a lot of light onto what it means to perform under pressure and why some people do well and some people don't do so well.

I appreciate the insight. Dane Jensen has been my guest. He is a consultant, coach, teacher, CEO of Third Factor, which is an organization that studies the science of performance. And the name of his book is The Power of Pressure. Why pressure isn't the problem, it's the solution. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Dane.

Well, thanks so much, Mike. This has been just a really fascinating conversation. Really appreciate the invite. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,

we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Food, it's a big part of your life without it there would be no you and the history and stories about food are so interesting i've always been fascinated by food and so has matt siegel matt has researched some of the most interesting stories about the food you eat for his book called The Secret History of

Food. Hey, Matt, welcome. Thank you for having me. So I know some people are more into food than others, but really, no matter who you are, I mean, it's hard to go for too many hours and minutes without thinking about food. It's a big part of our life, and we think about it a lot. You know, I think we're biologically programmed to obsess over food for a lot of reasons. And a lot of those reasons, you know, initially have to do with survival. But really, food is about much more than just sustenance and calories. If you look at our culture, it's a drug. It's a weapon.

It's a drug, it's a weapon, it's a medicine, it's a spiritual right and a big part of religions and families and social gathering. So much of the world, even our economy, much of the world really does revolve around food. Well, it's interesting to me why we eat, because for most of human history, I would imagine we ate to survive. Today, yes, we eat to survive, but we also eat to try new things, to experiment, to share, to entertain with. It's different. It's, yes, still survival, but there's more to it than that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, if you go back way further than hundreds of years, I mean, really biologically we're programmed to survive. We're programmed to be gluttons and to be obsessed with food and to be obsessed with finding our next bite. And in terms of survival, we want that bite to help sustain us as much as possible in case we can't find another bite or

in case there's a long winter or there's an issue with crops or finding next food. So yeah, we're obsessed with finding as much sugar as possible and as much fat as possible. And really these energy dense caloric foods are what we're programmed to crave. I want to get to some of the specific stories about different foods because they're so interesting. And I bet everybody has had the discussion of, you know, is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? And I imagine that few people know that the Supreme Court of the United States actually weighed in on this question. In 1893, the Supreme Court actually had to rule whether tomatoes were fruit or vegetable. What I love about this is, you know, first of all, this wasn't that long ago in 1893. But this was contested for something like six years in different courts before making

its way to the Supreme Court, who finally ruled that it was a vegetable after much discussion and reading from dictionaries and having experts. But, you know, it goes to show how little we know about food very recently. And it wasn't long before that, that people thought tomatoes were poisonous and that they were used by witches to summon werewolves. In fact, the tomato's Latin name literally means wolf peach. But you just said that tomato's a vegetable, but I think people think it's a fruit. There's the grocery store definition of a fruit or a vegetable or a spice. And then there's the botanical definition, which in many cases is different.

Now, the Supreme Court, they weren't actually interested in either of those. They were interested in the definition for tax purposes. So this whole case arose basically from someone who was importing tomatoes and didn't want to pay a tax on fruits. So they claimed it was a vegetable. They went to court for that. And what was the Supreme Court's rationale for deciding it was a vegetable because of what? They read from a lot of dictionaries. They heard a lot of expert witnesses, but the ruling that it was a vegetable rather than a fruit, I believe it was because they're usually consumed before or after the main meal, unlike fruits, which are usually served as dessert. So that was their big piece of evidence. Vanilla is pretty interesting. And I guess one of the reasons it's so interesting is that

the term vanilla in our culture has come to mean something very bland and boring. I think it's super, super unfortunate that in modern culture, vanilla has become a synonym for ordinary and plain when really it's anything but. I mean, for starters, it's the only edible fruit to grow on orchids. And it's super, super expensive because those orchids only grow in select regions of the world, and they have to be pollinated by hand using a stick or a blade of grass, which is a technique that was developed by a 12-year-old slave. And because of that, it's super expensive. So there's really not enough vanilla, not even close to being enough vanilla to go around. So probably most of the people who unfortunately call vanilla ordinary have probably never tasted the real thing.

You know, up to 99% of vanilla in food is artificial. Really? So when I buy vanilla at the store and it says, you know, real vanilla versus the bottle next to it that says artificial, it isn't real vanilla? Yeah. So it really depends. So, I mean, you can get ice cream that says French vanilla ice cream, right? But the term French vanilla doesn't refer actually to French vanilla, but to the French style of making ice cream with eggs, which is

why it's yellow. Of course, it might not actually include eggs. They might use some sort of dye or spice to give it that color. And yeah, there's a good chance that if you read the label, that French vanilla ice cream might be made with various types of artificial flavoring. Or to save on money, it might have actual specks of vanilla, but they might have bought the cheaper uncured vanilla, which doesn't have any flavor at all. It's really just there to look pretty. And the actual vanilla flavor might come from elsewhere. breakfast cereal. We can't imagine anybody who hasn't had breakfast cereal in their lives. It's a totally manufactured food in a box, and yet it is extremely popular. So what's the story? It's popular for being, these days, a sugary treat, right? So we think breakfast cereal, most of them, particularly kids' breakfast cereals, are sweet. But it was actually created to be quite the opposite. So the first ready-to-eat cold breakfast cereals were really intentionally bland. They were created in the 1800s by religious health reformers,

including John Harvey Kellogg, who basically believed that sugar and spices were sinful and that consuming them led to all sorts of bodily temptations and sexual urges and really led people away from spirituality. So they wanted a breakfast that would allow people to quite literally break their fast and begin their day, but to do so in really a solemn and religious manner that didn't excite their body and their mind. They very intentionally made cereal as boring as possible. And what was it then? Was it like cornflakes and grape nuts or was it something else? Yes. So cornflakes was the big hit. There was this, back then, this big technology to create

this flaked cereal. But before that, it was basically just these hard chunks of flour. And the reason we soak cereal, the reason we put cereal in milk is it was initially so hard that you had to soak it in milk to soften it up so it didn't break your teeth. And that was an advantage. That's the reason that Corn Flakes was really the first one to take off because it was the first ready-to-eat cereal that didn't threaten to break your teeth. Let's talk about honey because I think people's image of honey is bees landing on beautiful wildflowers and creating this wonderful honey that you put on your tea or on your toast or whatever. But you say that it is just as likely that it's the result of bees landing on lawn weeds or poison ivy or anything else.

And, you know, that's okay. So we tend to picture honey as coming from bees that are buzzing around these beautiful ornamental flowers. But the truth is, honey comes from really any source that the bees can get nectar from. So that includes really anything ranging from lawn weeds to poison oak and poison ivy. Anything that is a plant with nectar, they can turn into honey. You know what I've always wondered is why sweets, why dessert is considered a treat? I mean, sweet is one of several food sensations, sour, bitter, sweet. But sweet somehow got this reputation of being very special and of being a treat.

In nature, sugar, things that were sweet in nature were pretty rare. I mean, we talked about honey. You know, if you think about getting sugar from something like a sugar cane, it's not super easy. If you've ever tried to get maple syrup out of a tree, that's not super easy. You know, I mean, basically dates and honey or, you know, different fruits were pretty much the way to get sugar. But now, of course, we've got this giant industry and sugar is in almost everything we eat today because we have more of it than we need. It's gone from one of the most rare and expensive ingredients to

one of the most abundant ingredients. So it's basically a filler in everything we eat. And if you look at how to sell food, it's a business today, right? So we want to sell foods that the opposite of cereal, we want to sell foods that are exciting and that people are going to want to buy. And I think the easiest way to do that in a lot of cases is to make them sweet. Yeah. Well, look at food labels. I mean, it's hard to find something processed that doesn't have sugar in it. It's just bread. I mean, everything. Everything has sugar. And, you know, the story of cereal is really an example of that. So we mentioned cereal, specifically Kellogg's was intentionally created to be bland. And that was created by John. Kellogg helped him create Corn Flakes and then ultimately had a big break and disagreed with his brother and started his own cereal company. And he really believed the opposite. He believed that the point of cereal and the point of life was to make people happy. And he added

really not just the first sugar to cereal commercially, but also the first free prizes. And that's the Kellogg we know today is the brother of John Harvey. When you look at the secret history of food, what is it about food that really captures your imagination? What do you like about this? I was really surprised the more I looked into the role of food in war. You know, food has really been weaponized since antiquity, all the way back to throwing beehives at enemies, right, in the earliest days and weaponizing honey in other ways with hallucinogenic honey or poison honey that they would use to booby trap their incoming enemies and poisoning food. But what interested me is not only has food been used historically as a weapon, but it's also been used as a tool to support war in other ways. You can use food as a weapon of war to throw it at your enemies or poison them. But an important role of food in war that's really growing is the importance of food to feed your troops, right? So your troops can't march if they can't eat. so than that, especially during World War II, we started to place a bigger influence on food for

comfort, not just calories, but comfort. During World War II, the U.S. military placed a huge emphasis on providing comfort for our troops overseas to really remind them of home. By doing things like? Yeah, so ice cream was a huge part of it. One thing you need to realize with food and war is it takes a lot to feed troops. So historically, militaries have usually enacted different types of rationing in order to preserve food for their troops. And that was the case during World War II. There was a huge shortage of sugar and a lot of other staples. And just about every country in the rest of the world scaled back on ice cream, if not cut it out altogether during World War II to save on staples.

The United States did something that had really never been done before. They doubled down and they did their best to make sure that every soldier got as much ice cream as possible. And that was really about more than calories. It was about reminding them of home and reminding them what they were fighting for. And whether they were soldiers who were healing in the hospitals or preparing to go overseas or across enemy lines, they wanted them to have ice cream so they weren't just feeding them these boring rations that were getting their spirits down. Talk about Patagonian toothfish. Ah, so Patagonian toothfish, it doesn't sound very appetizing, does it? Nope. So you're not alone.

No one really wanted to eat Patagonian toothfish. It was what's called a trash fish. It was thrown away by fishermen and no one really wanted to eat it until they decided to change its name in 1994 to Chilean sea bass. And now, of course, it sells for something like $29.99 a pound. And really, the only difference is a name. It was a brilliant marketing idea to change the name from Patagonian toothfish to something a little more appetizing. I guess I think of corn as a food that's been around for a long time and that people have eaten it for centuries and centuries. So I was surprised to learn that, for example,

that originally corn was like no bigger than a cigarette. An ear of corn was no bigger than a cigarette. We're really not even sure what the first people who ate corn did with it. It was, an entire ear of it was about the size of a cigarette. It had maybe six to eight kernels, and they were rock hard, wrapped in this impenetrable outer casing. It was really a weed. Nothing at all like the modern corn we see today, which is huge and has hundreds of kernels, which aren't covered by that tough outer grain. But for some reason, our ancestors, they saw potential in this and they kept planting and replanting it and selectively bred it for the traits they wanted. So they would plant some of it and then they would replant only the seeds from

the varieties that were a little fatter than the others. And if you do that for a thousand years or a few thousand years, it's going to get bigger and bigger and softer. And we really transformed corn from an inedible weed into what it is today, which a huge portion of the world lives on as a staple. Well, when you look at it that way, it really is a relationship between humans and corn. We think of food as food, but we have a relationship with the food we eat. You know, I think we sort of look at the history of humans as independent of the rest of the world, right? Like humans evolving, and then there's food beside that. But the reality is humans and food really co-evolved together in a lot of ways. And

I think corn is a great example about that. We transformed corn by turning it, selectively breeding it, turning it from this inedible weed into a modern staple. And corn really transformed us by giving us the means for agriculture. And the more we planted corn and became domesticated ourselves to tend to those crops. I mean, that was really the evolution of modern cities. Talk about potatoes, because we seem to have, at least here in the U.S., we seem to have a real love affair with potatoes. It's funny. Potatoes are the number one vegetable in America, largely owing to their use as French fries. But a couple hundred years ago,

people thought they were poisonous and people were afraid to eat tomatoes, or sorry, people were afraid to eat potatoes for a long time. And this was largely because of the way they looked. In fact, people thought potatoes caused syphilis and leprosy. And part of the reason is if you think about a potato, it's this gnarled thing with these sort of lumps on it. And it didn't look super appetizing. And it reminded some cultures of some bodily ailments they had. And it wasn't something that they wanted to ingest. Well, something happened to change their mind. Yeah, famine. So, you know, basically the potato became popular because other crops failed at the right time.

You know, from the perspective of the potato, they failed at the right time and they really had no choice. So people who previously would never have eaten potatoes, they ate them out of necessity because those crops survived when other crops failed. And now, of course, they're the number one vegetable in the country. Well, food is a topic that is certainly important to everyone. And I find the stories and the history of it really interesting. So I appreciate you sharing that with us. Matt Siegel has been my guest. The name of his book is The Secret History of Food, and you'll find a link to that book in the show

notes. Thanks, Matt. Great. Thank you so much. Did you know that everyone blushes? It's just that with some people it's more noticeable. And while there are different theories as to why we blush, science still isn't really sure. There's the kind of blushing where your face gets red because you've had too much to drink or you've been exercising. But when most of us think of blushing, it's the kind of blushing that's the result of embarrassment. And it's due to an increase in adrenaline.

The theory is that it serves an important signal to other people about the way we feel about a particular situation, that we're embarrassed. It's a very powerful nonverbal signal that can endear us to other people. In other words, blushing helps keep the peace. Interestingly, blushing is uniquely human. And even Charles Darwin called blushing the most peculiar and most human of all expressions. And that is something you should know. If you would like to support this podcast, and I'd really appreciate it if you did, just tell someone about it. Ask them to give it a listen. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God

and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Randolph Bantwine, wherever podcasts are available.