Something You Should Know - Why We Like Cute Things & How to Have a Great Conversation

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

When you use sarcasm in an email or text message, you are skating on thin ice. This episode begins by revealing the dangers of sarcasm in electronic communication and why it can get you in trouble. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/perceptual-asymmetries/201501/do-you-use-sarcasm-in-e-mails Universally, people love cute things. When you see a baby or a puppy or kitten, you react in a unique way. So, what is it about cuteness that we are attracted to? What happens to us internally when we see something cute? And why is it important? Here to explain this is Joshua Paul Dale, a professor at Chuo University in Tokyo and who has been featured as an expert on cuteness in The New York Times, CNN, National Geographic and The Guardian. He is also author of the book, Irresistible: How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World (https://amzn.to/4hkNMgw). You engage in conversations every day with people without thinking a lot about it. But there is an art and science to good conversation and the more you understand it, the better your conversation skills become. Here to dive into the anatomy of good conversation is Alison Wood Brooks. She is a professor at Harvard Business School where she created and teaches a course called TALK. As a behavioral scientist, she is a leading expert on the science of conversation. Alison is author of the book TALK: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves (https://amzn.to/4gVF88z). When you see a car with a flat tire you might figure they hit a nail or the tire was punctured by something. But the most common reason for a tire to blow out is not puncture. Listen as I reveal the most common reason tires fail and how to prevent it. https://blog.openbay.com/post/104697132412/5-facts-you-didnt-know-about-your-tires PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! SHOPIFY:  "Established in 2025". Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for a $1 per-month trial period at https://Shopify.com/sysk . Go to SHOPIFY.com/sysk to grow your business! HERS: Hers is changing women's healthcare by providing access to GLP-1 weekly injections with the same active ingredient as Ozempic and Wegovy, as well as oral medication kits. Start your free online visit today at https://forhers.com/sysk INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING right now! CURIOSITY WEEKLY: We love Curiosity Weekly, so be sure and listen wherever you get your podcasts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Air Transat presents two friends traveling in Europe for the first time and feeling some pretty big emotions. This coffee is so good! How do they make it so rich and tasty? Those paintings we saw today weren't prints. They were the actual paintings. I have never seen tomatoes like this. How are they so red? With flight deals starting at just $589, it's time for you to see what Europe has to offer. Don't worry, you can handle it. Visit airtransat.com for details, conditions apply. Air Transat. Travel moves us.

Today on Something You Should Know, why sarcasm and email really don't mix well. Then, why we love cute things and why cuteness is so powerful. Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly. why we love cute things and why cuteness is so powerful. Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly within one seventh of a second. Then it acts as a releaser of social emotions like a wellbeing and empathy and compassion

and things like that. Also, the biggest reason car tires blow out and how to prevent it. And the anatomy of good conversation and why every conversation is important. You never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow conversation. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more. All this today on Something You Should Know.

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And as I record this, I have to tell you, I am so glad this last 10 days is over. We were right at the edge of the Eaton fire, one of the two first big fires in California. It burned right, literally right to our backyard, but we are okay. And I had a cold, a nasty, that nasty cold that's going around that just will not go away. The cough keeps lingering. It's been a, it's been a tough couple of days, so I'm glad we're pretty much at the end of it. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. We're going to start today talking about one of the pitfalls, big pitfalls, of email and texting, for that matter.

And it has to do with sarcasm. For people to understand another person's sarcasm, they have to share context. If two people are about to walk out into a rainstorm and one person says, gee, what a lovely day for a walk, well, everybody gets it. Everybody understands the sarcasm because they all share the same context. But in an email or a text message, the person may not share this common ground, so any sarcasm could easily be misunderstood. In fact, it might even be offensive. Studies have been conducted and have shown that sarcasm in email is often taken literally, and that

can lead to a lot of trouble. Emoticons can help, but many of them are ambiguous, hard to see, and can look unprofessional. So as a general rule, sarcasm in an email or a text is extremely risky and probably better left to vocal communication, where it's much more obvious. And that is something you should know. Human beings are suckers for all things cute. A cute baby, a cute puppy, a kitten, a bear cub, a cartoon character. They all grab our attention because they're so cute.

So what is cute? What makes something cute? Does cute sell? Marketers use cute characters a lot to sell products. Does it work? Well, as you might imagine, cute has been studied and one of the experts on cute is Joshua Palldale. He is a professor in the Department of English Literature and Culture at, I think it's pronounced Chuo University in Tokyo, C-H-U-O. He's been featured as an expert on cuteness by media outlets such as the New York Times, CNN, National Geographic, The Guardian, and Discover Magazine. He's author of a book called Irresistible,

How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and brains and conquered the world. Hi Joshua, welcome to Something You Should Know. Hello Mike, and thanks very much for having me. So what a fascinating topic because everybody seems to be attracted to things that are cute. But you wonder like what is it about something that makes it cute? Because you could look at a cute puppy and they're just adorable, but in a few weeks, few months, not so cute anymore. So what happened? We all know cute when we see it, but what is the definition of cute?

Yeah, we call that the baby schema. And basically anything that reminds us of a baby is going to appear cute to us. So you gave the example of puppies. They have big eyes as they're maturing. They have a kind of wide face. They have short little arms and legs. And these are the things that trigger a cuteness response in us, because we evolved to feel that babies are cute. We evolved to it? It's evolution or is it just cultural? Oh yeah, that's a really good question and it seems to be a mix of both.

So scientists think that we evolved to feel cute because babies need to be taken care of and even more than that they need socialization. They need us to engage with them so that they can learn to be part of human society. And that response was so robust because it's so needed in our evolution as a species that it kind of spills over into anything that looks like a baby, like puppies or kittens. So what are the elements of cuteness? What must something have in order for people to look at and go, oh, look how cute. Yes, this is the question that companies are always trying to figure out when they design cute products. And the threshold is different for

individuals. So we can never know for sure. Otherwise, I could make a million dollars right now just by designing the perfect cute product. So basically it has to have some of the characteristics of the baby schema. But more important, I think, is the relationship that we can feel with the cute object. So if we can feel some kind of connection and there's a few cute characteristics then we're going to be overwhelmed by that feeling of cuteness. And what does seeing or observing or experiencing cuteness in the world do for me? Why do I

like it and what does it do for me? Well studies have shown some really interesting results about that cuteness can basically induce positive emotional states because it gets our brain ready for behaviors like caretaking and also socialization So when we see something cute first of all it makes us feel good, it increases our sense of well-being. It also triggers activity in the muscles used for smiling, even if we're not aware of it. Scientists have put sensors on people's faces and the muscles are activated for smiling when we see something cute. And also seeing something cute promotes social relationships,

like it increases our empathy, and it even focuses our attention more. The word cute, though, seems to have been hijacked for a lot of things. Like you will often see someone try a clothes on and go, oh, that outfit, it's so cute. It looks so cute on you. Well, does it look cute on you? It doesn't look cute. Certainly not the way you're talking about

cute. It's come to mean something else. I'm not sure what that means. Yeah, cute can be a synonym for very similar words like pretty or adorable, which is very close to cute. And there's also an element of the word cute in English that is not in the word in other languages. Cute in English can imply something that's a little bit clever or cunning. Like you can say, oh, don't be cute to someone, for example, and you're not talking about adorability there. You're saying don't be so clever. In other languages, like in Japanese, the word for cute is kawaii, and it does not have that kind of meaning.

You cannot say don't be kawaii in the way that you can say don't be cute in English. That's what I find so interesting about this phenomenon. Are we suckers for cute? In other words, if there are two similar items for sale and they're the same price, everything's similar, but one of them's got this cute baby puppy face, are we more likely to buy it? I think it depends on our own situation. So some people are more attracted to cute things than others, And there's interesting research going on right now about AI assistants, which are coming fast. And so the scientists are

wondering, you know, will people like an assistant that sounds cute or one that sounds more professional? And it really depends on the situation. If you're asking for help with a technical issue, you want professionality. But there are other cases where if a voice, artificial voice, sounds kind of cute, that you might forgive it its mistakes a little bit more easily, for example. And companies are very aware that that can be a big advantage to them.

Well, that brings up an interesting question, because we know what a cute voice sounds like, but a cute voice doesn't have any of the characteristics that you talked about because you can't see it. So, what makes a cute voice cute? Yeah, there's a phenomenon they call auditory cuteness that's also being investigated. And so far, the research has really concentrated on voices that are sort of a little bit more higher pitched. There are actually robots available that create

sounds. They don't talk through a cavity in their bodies that is the same size as a baby's vocal voice, voice box, sorry, the same size as a baby's voice box. So in general, if a voice sounds like a little bit higher pitch and also a little bit maybe a little bit funny or laughing a little bit, then we're more likely to imagine that a relationship with that voice and go along with it. What about cuteness with other species? Because if you see like little wolves or little bears, they're adorable, they're cute, they're very cute. Is it having the same effect on other bears?

Like, oh, isn't that cub so cute or not? Well, we will feel that animals are cute if they have the baby schema characteristics and also if they're in their what we call the socialization period. Young animals, including predators like bears or wolves, in their first few weeks of life, they're very curious and they explore everything and they have a lot of energy. Those are the characteristics that human children have too, and these will help trigger our cuteness response.

But of course with wild animals, once the socialization window closes, then they become more cautious and can become aggressive as well. So why do you care about this? Why is this worth studying? Other than I can certainly see from a marketing point of view, wanting to understand how to use cuteness to sell stuff, but I assume your interest in this is not that. Well, that's part of it. I mean, my typical answer to the question of why do I study Qt

is that it's a multi-billion dollar industry operating around the world and very few people are studying it. But more than that, I mean, you're right to guess that I have more of an interest. And my interest really lies in just how deep it goes and how many ways you can study it from so many different positions. You can study the science of cuteness, the psychology of cuteness from marketing sure but also from a cultural standpoint. What do we find cute and why and how is this different across individuals and cultures? It just seems like I'll never get to the bottom of it and that's what attracts me. We're discussing cuteness. My guest is Joshua Paul Dale. He's author

of the book Irresistible, How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. In a darkly comedic look at motherhood and society's expectations, Academy Award nominated Amy Adams stars as a passionate artist who puts her career on hold to stay home with her young son. But her maternal instincts take a wild and surreal turn as she discovers the best, yet fiercest part of herself. Based on the acclaimed novel, Nightbitch is a thought-provoking

and wickedly humorous film from Searchlight Pictures. Stream Nightbitch January 24 only on Disney+. If you are caught up in the Barbenheimer frenzy, if you love ranking the Mission Impossible films, if you are just an all-around movie fan, I have a podcast for you. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm a film critic, a rights for the New York Times. And I am also the cohost of Unspooled, the ultimate movie podcast. Each week, my cohost Paul Scheer and I unspool famous films to see if they're truly all time classics. From the original 1984 Karate Kid to Children

of Men to more recent pictures to Dune. Yes, to Citizen Kane, we cover it all. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts. So Joshua, what about the history of cuteness? Has cuteness always been a thing? Has it always been important? Has it always been as big a deal as it is now? My guess is that's probably not the case, but you tell me. Yeah. In Western culture, like European history, there has not been so much cuteness in arts

and literature, you know, where we can track it, until possibly the Renaissance, when cupids appeared in artworks. So there are many frescoes and paintings from the Renaissance with little winged cupids flying around that look like babies. In Japan, it's different. Cuteness has been a presence in the arts in Japan for at least a thousand years in art and literature. And that difference is also something that I'm really interested in exploring. Why do you think it's so popular in Japanese culture for so long? One reason is that in Europe the aesthetics that guided art were the beautiful and the sublime. So painters just wanted to make things that were

perfect and beautiful or that really impressed you and like a sublime object. In Japan the aesthetics leaned more towards the everyday and painters wanted to do things that people would like rather than just focusing on perfection. In fact, Japanese art kind of prefers asymmetry to symmetry. And this is the atmosphere that allowed cuteness to rise up in the arts in Japan so early, I think. So does cuteness perpetuate itself? In other words, when you see a character in a movie that's

very cute and then seems like there's more of those kinds of characters in movies because it seemed to work the last time, and then there's more cuteness and more cuteness. Like it kind of builds on itself. Yeah, it definitely can go in waves. There was an initial wave in the early 20th century that had to do with new technologies, like new printing technologies. So you could do color photographs and newspaper

comic supplements and the era of mass production and We're in the midst. I think of another boom in cuteness that was caused by the internet and social media Because now we can share content so easily and it crosses Geographical borders so easily And so it feeds on itself. Like you said, we see a little cute content and it's popular. So more and more is produced and it just keeps going. Is it fair to say that cuteness appeals to women more than men or not? Studies, some studies have shown that women seem to be a bit more sensitive to cuteness, which is not really surprising because I think that cuteness is really part of girls and young women's culture. But on the other hand, the studies also show that men have sensitivity to cuteness as well.

So it's really a mixed thing that appeals to all genders. Are we being manipulated by cuteness much in the way, you know, people say sex sells. Does cuteness sell? Are we suckers for cuteness? Yes, we are absolutely being manipulated by cuteness constantly. I can say that with confidence. Companies that make products that are cute

are definitely trying to get us to buy them. Content providers are making cute content because it's popular, and then we will subscribe to their channels. So we do have to be a little bit careful of that, I think, and just kind of be aware of when we're attracted to something by its cuteness. You know, who benefits?

We benefit, but perhaps we're attracted to something by its cuteness. You know, who benefits? We benefit, but perhaps we're allowing something else to benefit too, like a corporation. So you said a few minutes ago that there are so many ways to look at this topic of cuteness. And for someone who doesn't study cuteness, I can't imagine what some of those ways are. So what's one of those ways?

Sure. For example, there have been some really interesting studies that put people into brain scanners and show them cute images and take a look at what happens to our brains when we are feeling the emotion of cuteness. And what they found is that cuteness attracts our attention very quickly, within one seventh of a second. And then it acts kind of as a releaser of social emotions.

So after we're attracted to a cute object, then it can influence our behavior, but it doesn't do that automatically. The attraction is automatic, but then it influences our behavior only if we really like cute things and depending on the situation. And in that case, it will release all these pro-social feelings like a well-being and empathy and

compassion and things like that. Because based on what you're saying, there's a lot we now know about cuteness. I'm wondering how tech is a lot we now know about cuteness. I'm wondering how tech is incorporating, if at all, this whole concept of cuteness and if so, how? Right now, I'm looking to the near future to what's happening with AI, but also robotics. Because I have a Google Scholar alert for cuteness. So a couple of times a week, these emails

pop up in my inbox and I get advanced news on what's being published in the academic fields on robotics and AI. And I've been noticing a lot of papers that are concentrating on cuteness, like, how can we make a robot act in a cute way? And they're very technical. The latest article I read was talking about head tilting. Like, how can a robot tilt its head so we look at it and go, oh, that's so cute. What is the angle that needs to be done? What speed does a robot's head have to move?

So from this, I get the impression that we're going to be seeing a new generation of robots that are designed to look cute and to appeal to us through their cuteness. And we get a whole bunch of reasons for that. Some of them are a profit for the company. But also, it's a way to help us to feel closer to that robot, to engage with it, and then it will help us more if that's the robot's intention.

Right, well certainly you wouldn't feel all that threatened by a cute robot, where you might, with a robot that talks like this, you know, a cute robot, well, that's OK, I'll play with that. Exactly. So we respond to cuteness almost instantly, because it has this, which you describe as the baby schema, it looks like a baby or has elements of the look of a baby.

Do babies respond to cuteness to other babies who are cute? Yes, actually. Studies have shown that. Yeah, and I actually think anyone with children would recognize that once they reach a certain age they are able to use their acuteness to try to manipulate their parents. So acuteness is both appreciated by very young children and also used by very young children. Yeah, and there have been, I've heard people you know Maybe dogs can try to use it too like when they done something bad. They do that cute, you know sad face thing

It's hard for me to imagine that's a deliberate use of cuteness Yeah, dogs have this muscle that allows them to raise their eyebrows and it's interesting because wolves Who they descended from, do not have this muscle. So it seems to have evolved because it is particularly effective in emotionally manipulating humans who have been taking care of dogs for a long time. So I don't know if the dogs are deliberately, I mean, they didn't deliberately evolve this new muscle. It's just that the ones who had it survived better than the ones who didn't. And that's because of its effect on us.

So really, you know, we're not really sure if animals feel cuteness themselves, or if they are able to use cuteness to manipulate us, but certainly animals will try to manipulate us just like young children will. but certainly animals will try to manipulate us just like young children will. I think anyone with a cat or a dog will know that sometimes the animal is trying to manipulate us to get food or our attention or care. And cuteness is a very effective way of doing that. But are they using it deliberately or are they just cute so, you know, it's hard to get mad at them because look how cute they are. Or are they just cute so, you know, it's hard to get mad at them because look how cute they are. I think it's both. I think any animal, and that includes young humans, will use every weapon in their arsenal

to try to get what they want. And cuteness is one of those tools. So I don't know how much they're actually aware that cuteness is the thing they're using. It's just the effective thing that they're using. And they've realized that this is effective and that's why they're using it. So lastly, one last thing about cuteness that I probably don't know that would surprise me

or interest me or fascinate me or whatever. So right now we have these AI chatbots that have learned through absorbing a tremendous amount of text. And we have these AI image generators that can generate images because they have absorbed a ton of images. But so far there haven't been any AIs that have trained on a huge corpus of videos. But think of the tens of thousands or even millions of cute videos that have been uploaded to social media and the internet. If there was an AI that trained on all of those cute videos and then the AI was able to operate a robotic body like a robotic dog, Sony already makes a robotic dog called the Ibo and it's

pretty cute, if it has an AI engine in it that is trained with all those videos then it could perform cuteness in ways that would never make us bored, would always attract our attention and interest and always attract our empathy and connection and always increase our own sense of wellbeing. And that's where I think the future might be headed. Well, who knew there was so much about cuteness to talk about, but it's interesting to hear that there is so much to talk about.

I've been talking with Joshua Pauldale. He's one of the leading experts on cuteness and he's author of a book called Irresistible, How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Joshua, this was really interesting. I know more about cuteness than I ever thought I would. Your questions are great.

And I mean, I was prepared for that because I've listened to your show, but really, this was really a treat because the questions were just on point and excellent. Ladies and gentlemen. What are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo.

Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bros. No! Dude, stop with the voice. Just keep it simple. I've seen promos on TV, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes to talk about Bravo, people are going to get tired of it already. We need some oomph. Alright, then fine. Let's try to do it with your voice. Brav Bros. Good job.

Hi, I'm Laura Cathcart Robbins and I am the host and creator of the podcast, Only One in the Room. Every week, my co-host Scott Slaughter and I invite you to join us and lose yourself in someone's only one story. The Only One in the Room has a wide variety of guests from prisoners to abuse survivors to swingers. With 21 seasons and counting, we guarantee that Only One in the Room will have a story that you'll connect with. This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people, which is to say that this podcast is for everyone. When you think about how many conversations people have every day, you would think we're all experts at it by now. And some people seem to be. We all know people who are brilliant conversationalists, while others of us aren't quite so good at

it. For one thing, most of us never learned formally how to make a conversation. It's just something you learn as you go. So today we're going to discuss what makes a good conversation and a good conversationalist with my guest, Alison Woodbrooks. Alison is a professor at Harvard Business School

and she is author of a book called, Talk, The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Hi, Allison, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. So as I said, conversation is something most of us just learn as we go. Seldom do we sit down and talk about the science of conversation. We just do it. So why are we talking about it? Conversation is a surprisingly vast ocean of complexity. There's a lot going on under the

hood. For something we learn to do as toddlers and practice doing every day of our lives, every day, all day long with a huge range of partners, it feels like we get to adulthood and we should be experts. And in truth, we are far from being expert at conversation. So what makes a good conversation? The definition of a good conversation is not up to me as a scientist or as a professor. It's not even up to you, Mike.

It's determined by the goals of the people participating in the conversation. And the goals that people have when they interact with other people are vast. I mean, if you didn't have, we always have at least one goal, even if it's just to have fun or be polite or to uphold the very basic expectation that you're going to respond to another person.

Usually, people have many more than just one goal. So you kind of hold on to this rich constellation of things. You might want to share a story. You might want to seek someone's advice. You might want to have a great time. You might want to give them a compliment. You want to persuade them to agree with your view on a certain issue, and also you need to leave in five minutes.

So we all hold these very many goals at the same time. And the person you're talking to has their own constellation of goals that they hold onto. And so the definition of success in any given conversation depends on achieving at least some subset of those goals. And achieving those goals is harder than it first appears. But in addition to those goals, and I get that, obviously, if you don't reach any

of the goals of the conversation, I guess that means it didn't go very well. But we've all had those conversations that almost regardless of whether we hit the goals, you walk away going, wow, what a great, that was such, I really enjoyed talking to that person. And we've all had conversations with people that are, what was that about?

I mean, that was the, what a waste of time that was and And I'm I want to try to understand like what happened That people walk away with those different kind of results. Yeah, so in almost every encounter we have this we have some goals that are common across most conversations one of which is that we want it to be enjoyable and feel We have some goals that are common across most conversations, one of which is that we want it to be enjoyable and feel meaningful and not overly shallow. We wanna avoid awkwardness.

We wanna feel connected. We wanna feel safe. And we want, often we wanna learn new things from each other. It's why the human race evolved, the ability to communicate at all is to share and exchange accurate information. And so to the extent that you can achieve enjoyment and safety

and connection and information exchange all within one conversation, that's going to be a conversation that feels terrific. And it can break down in any one of those ways, if it's not enjoyable, if it doesn't feel safe, if it's not advancing your understanding in the way that you want it to. And if you don't feel connected to the other person, like you're helping each other and like you understand each other,

in any one of those ways, when we walk away, it can feel like a failure. I want to talk about small talk. People have very definite opinions on small talk. Some people hate it. Some people relish in it. I don't personally mind small talk, except when you're in a situation where

that's all there is. You're just kind of going from person to person, and it's, hi, how are you? What do you do? And that, to me, gets old pretty quick. And sometimes those conversations are fueled by alcohol, and they just never really seem to go anywhere.

And you wonder, well, what's the point of small talk? So I want to push you on this. All right. You you never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow context or a shallow conversation. You never know when you're going to see someone again. You never know if you could uncover something in that conversation that would inspire you to see them again. or something in that conversation that would inspire you to see them again.

So even in the unlikeliest of circumstances, I just want to push you and everyone to consider the idea that maybe it doesn't have to be as shallow as it first appears. I teach about this in my course at Harvard. There's this topic pyramid with three levels. At the base of the pyramid, this is where small talk lives. This is topics you could talk about with anybody,

let's say at a dinner party or a cocktail party. So the traffic, the weather, the weekend, the holidays, whatever, stuff you can talk about with anyone. The problem isn't with small talk in general. In fact, it's a very important social ritual that helps us initiate conversations, get acquainted with people we don't know well, or reacquaint ourselves with people

we haven't seen in a while. The mistake that most people make, particularly at a cocktail party, or maybe a networking event, or really anywhere, is they stay too long at the base of the pyramid. So you need to think of small talk as a place to be searching for something more meaningful,

for looking for doorknobs to go through doors to more meaningful rooms of the conversation. And if you find them, you can move into the second tier of the pyramid, which is medium or tailored talk. And the way to get there is to get more personalized. And this might look like asking questions that triggers self-disclosure from your partner. It might mean sharing something personal,

maybe something joyful or painful about your own life. Or it could not be about disclosure at all, but just trying to find topics that are exciting to both of you, sort of chasing the energy to find topics where they're an expert or they have some interest or just positive energy in general. So chase the energy to launch away from small talk. At the very top of the pyramid is deep talk. This is a meaningful topic that maybe only you two people could talk about at a specific moment in time.

The conversation we're having right now feels like we're getting there, right? Like we're there because we have this substantive topic to talk about. You have this expertise. We're getting to know each other. We're sort of hovering over Deep Talk and having a substantive collaboration and work to work on together can help you get there. And we're all navigating this topic pyramid all the time. Not every conversation is bound for the peak of the pyramid. It would be annoying if someone is always trying to have these deep, meaningful conversations with everybody.

You don't need to have a deep conversation with the barista at Starbucks. But you could maybe give them a compliment or ask about their kid, right, if it's the same person you're seeing every day, and get into that medium second tier of the pyramid. But I do want to push you and everyone on this idea of like, it doesn't have to be shallow. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more. Yeah, I know you're right. I think it's more weariness like when you're at a networking event or something and you've had, you know, 10 or 12 of those shallow conversations, you just kind

of run out of gas. It's like, I just I'm done. I'll try again tomorrow, but I just enough's enough. I just, I'm done. I mean, I'll try again tomorrow, but I just, enough's enough. Yeah, or not. Maybe take a rest. Don't talk to anybody tomorrow. Yeah. Exhaustion is real. So I think all of this stuff, thinking about how to have great conversations, how to really

connect with people. One thing that has become clear through our research is it does require a tremendous amount of energy and effort. You even just listening, your mind is wandering 24% of the time, even when you're trying to listen attentively. So to be a good listener, it takes a lot of energy, a lot of focus, and we're not always prepared. We don't always have that energy.

So I think giving yourself grace about that and giving others grace about sort of social and conversational fatigue is also really important, particularly in this world where we're constantly toggling between, you know, text threads and emails and phone calls and Zoom calls and in-person conversations, there's, we're sort of having more conversation across all different modes of communication

than ever before in human history. So the fatigue, the drain on our energy that comes from that is very, very real and should be taken seriously. I want to ask you about, you just used the word, you know, connect with someone. And everyone's connected with someone, and you sort of know word, you know, connect, connect with someone. And everyone's connected with someone. And you sort of know what that feels like. But what does it mean to connect with someone?

And do you think that because I feel like I've connected with someone, how likely is it that they feel the same way? Hmm. What a lovely question. I sometimes think of conversation as the sort of journey that you're going on, a sort of relentless search process where you're searching for deep, meaningful moments where you get to the peak of that topic pyramid where you feel like, oh, we did it. We did the thing where we feel really close and connected and like, I trust you. And we talked about a thing that felt really good. We felt

connected. I don't think we can expect that all the time. And even in conversations where you walk away feeling like, oh my gosh, that was great. If you look back at the transcript, what you would see is kind of like a train wreck. Like we interrupt each other all the time. There's all kinds of moments of misunderstanding. There's, we say things that we probably shouldn't. We forget to say things that we should, but there are these moments where you come together and say, wow, like, oh, that felt really good.

And likely, if you're feeling that way, it's likely that the other person is as well. But to your point, Mike, like the you never know, you you we really cannot read the minds of other people. The most direct way to understand what is in someone else's head and how they felt like the conversation went is to ask them directly. Questions are the most direct pathway to learning about someone else's mind. I remember hearing somebody say something about Bill Clinton that he is a great conversationalist

because when you talk to him, you feel like you're the only person in the world, that he makes you so the focus of his existence for the few minutes he's talking to you, that everybody walks away from a conversation with him feeling terrific. And we've all had those people, I know those people that you talk to them

and you walk away, you feel better about yourself, you feel smarter, you just feel terrific. And then the other side of that is you walk away from some conversations and feel horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I know I've heard that about Bill Clinton as well. There are people in the world who have developed conversation as a skill.

And it's very easy to look at someone like Bill Clinton and think, boy, he is gifted. He is a gifted, natural conversationalist. He has this charisma. He's really good at connecting with people. And maybe it's effortless for him. And when you look at someone like Bill Clinton, who just seems charismatic and so good at connecting with people,

such a great listener, it kind of can make you feel bad about yourself. What am I not doing right here? What is this thing that he's so good at? Which I call the myth of naturalness. Even for someone like Bill Clinton, what you can't see are all the many experiences that he's had in his life that led him to this place where he became

such a good communicator. And you can't see all of the effort that he's putting in to every conversation to make sure that his partners are feeling so understood and loved and listened to and charmed and delighted. If you were to ask Bill Clinton, my guess would be that he thinks about people a lot when he's not together with them.

He thinks about what topics he needs to bring up with them once they're together. And then once they're in a conversation, he's thinking very out, he's listening very attentively, putting in tons of effort to really listen to people, elaborate on their ideas, follow up with them, and very actively sort of thinking about how to be the most helpful he can be to them in that sort of magical moment of the conversation. Also when people describe Bill Clinton in particular, I suspect what he's quite good at is listening. And listening is one of the most important skills in conversation overall, and it's much more complicated than it

first appears. And every time I talk to someone or I listen to someone talk about conversation, communicating with other people, how to be an effective communicator, they say they all say listening is one of the if not the most critical parts of communicating. And yet, I don't think people think about that, that they think it's, I've got to say what I need to say and get them to understand what I'm saying. So I think as humans, we tend to fixate on talking, thinking about, well, when am I going to speak up? And what am I going to say?

What am I going to disclose? What should I ask this person? When in fact, I think perhaps the more important part of the equation is listening, focusing on your partner, and working really hard to listen to their words, but also to their nonverbal cues, their gestures, their facial expressions. When we study listening as behavioral scientists, we think of it as all of the information that's coming at

you visually and through your ears, the audio, right? And so that's the person and how they're moving, what they look like, the sound of their voice, the meaning of their words, and also the environment all around you, sort of reading the room. All of this is required when you're listening. So perhaps it's no surprise that listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information.

And then in your mind, you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it. We can't really take it all in and think about all of it. And the third step of listening that's so unique to conversation is the expression of listening. It's not that you just hear and see things and then think about it. You can actually say and show your partner

that you've heard them. So Michael, just now you've made a really great distinction between talking and listening. The only way I can say that back to you is because I heard you say it in the first place. I'm thinking about this distinction very carefully. I'm compelled by it, and now I have the ability to repeat it back to you and affirm the distinction

and say, hey, I'm willing to go there with you. Let's do this together. One of the tricky parts of conversation and affirm the distinction and say, hey, I'm willing to go there with you. Let's do this together. One of the tricky parts of conversation seems to be ending it, especially if it's not going well or you get one of those people who answers with one word answers

and you find yourself in a conversation that's going nowhere. How do you, what do you do? Yes, there is fantastic research on conversational endings by behavioral scientists, Adam Masranyani and Gus Cooney. The end of a conversation, if we think of a conversation as the series of coordinated decisions between two people, the end of the conversation

is the last coordination decision. It's saying, okay, the next topic we're gonna choose is silence and we're gonna walk away from each other and it's over. And so even though we're, that begins at the very start of like where, what are we gonna talk about now and now and now and now, and then we get to the end and somebody has the power to end it.

So just like every other coordination choice, this ending decision is surprisingly difficult and causes a lot of awkwardness. In their study of conversational endings, they found that essentially we can't read other people's minds about when they would like to end. We're not even really that great at knowing when we would like to end a conversation. And because of this, almost no conversation ends when you want it to. Like,

we're just bad at guessing, which is on one hand, sort of depressing, on the other hand, I think very empowering. So it's saying like, look, you're going to get it wrong anyway. So as soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave, like just end it. It's okay. I'm curious, like when you are in a conversation with someone, what are the things that bother you if it's not going well? What are the things that really like, oh, here we go. Oh no. You know, it's funny when I talk to people myself, You know, it's funny when I talk to people myself, I truly honestly have a mindset of how can I make this good? Like what power do I have?

Even in the worst of circumstances, like it's really someone's really struggling, they're really awkward, or they're a windbag, or they're're not very nice or they're boring, whatever, whatever the challenge is. I love taking that on as a personal challenge of like, how can I make this interesting? How can I make this productive? How can I make it fun? It's a sort of treasure hunt for me. And the ways that I most commonly do that and try and pursue the adventure of making it good is through question asking, trying to ask questions that help us together, search for better treasure. Like, how can I know that every person out there, even those who seem boring or blustery or not that nice, I know they have something in their mind that I will be so interested to learn about and uncover. And so I like trying to figure that out. I also, I find many people to be sort of too serious

and a little boring. And so I have a sort of personal mission of injecting levity through humor, but also through warmth moves like flattery and just changing the topic to unexpected things. My friend calls it breaking the pace. I like to break the pace sometimes. Well, when you think about all the conversations we have,

most of them are unplanned, they just go as they go. It's fun to take a look at the anatomy of a conversation and why some go really well and some go not so well. And I appreciate you explaining all this. Allison Wood Brooks has been my guest. She is a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book, Talk, The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves.

And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Allison, a good conversation about conversation. Thank you so much for having me, Mike. I've had such a great time. If you drive enough, sooner or later you will see someone on the side of the road with a blown tire. And you've probably wondered, well, I wonder what causes that? Maybe they hit a nail or a piece of glass or something. Well, the biggest reason for tire blowouts isn't that it's under inflation. When your tires are under inflated, the sidewalls become weak and the tire is more likely to

blow out while you're driving, which can be very dangerous. Another big reason tires blow out is overinflation, which can cause your tires to pop like a balloon, again with very serious consequences. The best advice is to make sure to check your tire pressure once a month and follow the inflation recommendations in the car owner's manual, not the inflation number on the side of the tire. That's the maximum pressure that the tire can take, but not necessarily the ideal pressure. And that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, you can share your thoughts by leaving a rating and review on

whatever platform you listen on. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, whichever one, please leave a rating and review on whatever platform you listen on. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, whichever one, please leave a rating and review. Appreciate it. Thanks. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thank you for listening today to Something You Should Know. Hi, I'm Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to every single lesbian bar in the country for my podcast, Cruising. Dancing was a no-no. No women dancing. That would be something that, yes, the cops would grab before. There were no black-owned female gay bars. We needed a place of

our own. In those days, we went to the bars to socialize because there was no other way. When you went to Brady's bar, you knew you were safe. There's no other way. When you went to Brady's bar, you knew you were safe. This is Cruising, a documentary podcast about queer spaces, history, and culture. Each episode of Cruising features a different space and tells the stories of the humans that run it

and the humans that call it home. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season one and two are available now, so be sure to binge them before season three, which will go beyond the bars to queer bookstores, farms, peace encampments, and more, premiering February 4th.

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There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched and hotter temperatures and lower pitched and cooler temperatures?

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