Something You Should Know - Why You Deceive Yourself and How That’s a Good Thing & The Science of Flirting

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Starting point is 00:00:46 Being functional as a human being requires a robust amount of self-deception. That in fact someone who sees reality for what it is and can see nothing but reality in some ways is less functional than the person who can draw on these self-deceptions. Also if you're planning to skip your summer vacation this year, think again. And the art and science of flirting. How do you do it and not get in trouble? If you do it the way that I've explained, which is first just asking a question, you know, not going up all like intense and I'm going to flirt with you, but just connecting as a human being, asking one question and then assessing their reaction, there's going to be zero problems.

Starting point is 00:01:26 All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

Starting point is 00:02:02 She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:02:33 There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello. Welcome to episode 588 of Something You Should Know. You know, there are two types of people in the world. There are people who bring their own reusable shopping bags

Starting point is 00:03:09 to the grocery store, and then there are people who get new ones every time and often have to pay for them. If you do use reusable bags, you really have to wash them. In a study conducted by researchers at the University of Arizona and Loma Linda University, almost all the reusable shopping bags tested were packed with bacteria.

Starting point is 00:03:34 Half the bags had traces of coliform bacteria, while 12% of the bags tested positive for E. coli. And it's not just the food that you put in the bags that's causing the problem. Think about where you put the bags. Everywhere. You put them in the shopping cart at the store, which is a well-known germy spot to begin with. Then you put them in the back of your car where your dog sits. And then you put them on the countertops, which can be dirty as well.

Starting point is 00:04:03 And then to make matters worse, you do fill those bags with unwashed vegetables, possibly broken eggs and leaky meat packages. The good news is, though, that your reusable shopping bags can be salvaged simply by washing them. You can kill more than 99.9% of harmful bacteria by washing them. With cloth and canvas bags, you can just throw them in the laundry, 99.9% of harmful bacteria by washing them. With cloth and canvas bags, you can just throw them in the laundry, although it's recommended that you wash them separately from your clothes. And with the polypropylene bags, you do have to wash those by hand.

Starting point is 00:04:41 If you're using reusable bags at the grocery store, it's really important to wash them regularly and frequently. And that is something you should know. You are deluding yourself. And so am I. We're all deluding ourselves because, well, that's what humans do. And it's not necessarily a bad thing sometimes. In fact, it can be a good thing. But sometimes our self-deceptions can cause problems. So why are we deluding ourselves, and what are we deluding ourselves about? Here to explain is Shankar Vedantam. Shankar is author of a book called Hidden Brain, and he's also host of a great podcast called Hidden Brain that is extraordinarily well done. He has a new book out called Useful Delusions, The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. Hey, Shankar, welcome to Something You Should Know.

Starting point is 00:05:40 Thank you so much for having me, Mike. So explain what you mean by how we delude ourselves. And just in big, broad strokes here, what are we talking about? Well, in our daily lives, many of us experience a moment when we are not seeing reality clearly. And we often know what that's like. We know where we're sort of fooling ourselves into believing something that isn't quite true. And we've been taught over and over again that self-deception is a bad thing and being deluded is a bad thing. And for the most part, I agree with that. I agree that self-deceptions and delusions can, in fact, be very harmful

Starting point is 00:06:15 to individuals, to communities, and to nations. But it also turns out, paradoxically, that sometimes self-deceptions and these delusions can also be useful. They can be useful in our personal lives, in our interpersonal lives, and also in the lives of our groups and nations. Give me an example of that. Well, the simplest example might come in thinking about our interpersonal relationships. So a variety of studies find, for example, that people are happier in their romantic relationships when they believe their partners are kinder, wiser, and more good-looking than they actually are. And in some ways, this is not a surprising thing, of course. If you believe that you are in a very happy relationship and that your partner is an exceptional person, you're likely to be happier in your relationship, and your relationship is likely to be more stable. You know, Mike, if you and I went on a road trip this coming year and we stopped by every wedding that was happening in the United States and we asked people on their wedding day,

Starting point is 00:07:12 what are the odds that you're going to get divorced? If people were statisticians, they would tell you that the odds of getting divorced in any marriage are about, you know, between 40 and 60%. I bet you that no one on their wedding day would tell you that they have a 40% chance of getting divorced. And in fact, if someone told you they had a 40% chance of getting divorced on their wedding day, that person is likely not heading to a very happy marriage. So it's a small example of how in our daily interpersonal lives, a certain amount of self-deception, a belief that your relationship is going to be special, that you are in a special relationship, that your partner is exceptional in some way, that you are

Starting point is 00:07:49 wonderfully matched, all of these beliefs might not be completely true. But to the extent that they are untrue, they can also aid us in being happier in our relationships and in strengthening and cementing those relationships. When I think about self-deception, I think about those people that, for example, in my career, I have seen people who truly believe they're better at what they do than they really are, or at least they're better than I think they really are. But that belief in themselves, even though they don't have necessarily the results to prove it, that belief that they're good is what drives the success that they have. Right. So this is the great dilemma of self-deception, which is, you know,

Starting point is 00:08:34 is it a good thing or is it a bad thing? I think all of us can cite examples of people who have such outlandish views of themselves, so outlandishly positive in terms of their self-concept, that in some ways they bring themselves to harm. So you can imagine somebody who is in Las Vegas and believes that they are extraordinarily lucky and says, let me bet all of my life savings on what happens on the spin of the wheel. And they come to a sorry end because in fact, they're not as lucky as they think they are. In fact, the wheel is basically following the laws of probability. But it's also the case, as you point out, that belief in oneself can also be an enormous driver of people. It can drive people to behave more optimistically, very much like the example we gave a second ago about

Starting point is 00:09:19 interpersonal settings. If you believe you're in a happier relationship, you're likely to be happier. And the happier you are in your relationship, the longer the relationship is likely to last. It's exactly the same when it comes to all manner of different kinds of performance. So if you're part of a sports team that doesn't believe that it's going to win, what chance do you have of actually winning? On the other hand, if you're a sports team that is not very good, but you actually have a very strong belief that you are going to win, perhaps it won't come true, but at least you're going to try really hard to make sure that it does come true. And some of the time, you're going to end up succeeding. People who have a strong

Starting point is 00:09:53 belief that they're going to be successful, you know, in some ways have the wind at their backs. It doesn't mean they're always going to be successful. Sometimes they're going to fall flat on their faces, but it does mean that they have the wind at their backs. They're more likely to succeed than if you actually believe, you start out believing you're going to fall flat on their faces, but it does mean that they have the wind at their backs. They're more likely to succeed than if you actually believe, you start out believing, you're going to fail. What about the other side of the coin? People who are good, people who do things well, but have deceived themselves into thinking that they're not very good. Yeah. In some ways, this is called the imposter syndrome. So people show up in a workplace sometimes and they feel like they don't belong in the workplace. And a variety of psychological

Starting point is 00:10:29 studies show that when you suffer from the imposter syndrome, exactly the same thing happens, except in the reverse direction, which is you might in fact be good, you might in fact be competent, but your belief that you are not a good fit for the workplace that you're in or that you're not very skilled, in some ways impedes your ability to do well in the workplace. One way this happens, Mike, is that, you know, think about what happens in educational settings where sometimes students show up at a college and they don't believe that they actually belong. Maybe there are very few people who look like them in the college or there's some other reason they feel like, you know, they're imposters in college. One of the things that research scientists have found in studies of first-generation college students

Starting point is 00:11:08 and others who are in some ways breaking barriers to enter college is that when they experience setbacks in college, so let's say in your first year you receive a bad grade or you're very lonely in your freshman year or you receive some kind of negative feedback, you know, maybe you don't have friends sitting with you in the cafeteria at lunchtime. When you receive these negative signals, people who have imposter syndrome are likely to draw sweeping conclusions about themselves. They're likely to tell themselves, look, you know, the professor has given me a bad grade and this confirms to me something that I believe, which is I don't belong in this college. What they're

Starting point is 00:11:43 missing is that all the students in the college, in fact, are experiencing setbacks of various kinds. Your first year in college, many people are lonely. Many people receive negative grades. Many people receive all kinds of, you know, perceive all kinds of hurdles and challenges. But when you have imposter syndrome, you're likely to take those challenges and blow them out of proportion. You're likely to say, this means I don't belong. So the very same phenomenon that we've discussed that can help people in certain settings, the power of expectations and beliefs can certainly work in the other direction as well. So which is the bigger problem? People who think they're great when they're not, or people who are great but think they're not?

Starting point is 00:12:22 That's a wonderful question. I think it all depends on the context and the situation that you're in. Because as we've seen, the paradox is that it can work in both directions. So people who are sometimes very hesitant about their own views, they're very cautious about how they approach things. There have been studies, for example, that look at men and women in entrepreneurial settings. And a variety of studies find that women tend to be a little more cautious than men in entrepreneurial settings. As a result, they tend to bet. They don't tend to bet their whole life savings on projects. They tend to be a little more cautious. So if you were to make a bet on an individual man or an individual woman on a project, you might

Starting point is 00:13:02 actually be better off betting on the woman because she's less likely to lose her shirt. She's less likely to make such a wild and reckless bet that it basically blows up the whole enterprise. You're more likely to get that when you're dealing with a man. However, given that men as a group are far more likely to be risk takers, when you look at the overall group of people who are entrepreneurs, you're more likely to find men rather than women represented in this group. And part of the reason is, you know, there are certainly the sexism and who gets funded and who gets access to resources. All of those things are real. But it turns out the appetite for risk taking is itself a predictor of success. Now, it's also a predictor of failure. This is the paradox. There's not a clean line that divides it that says these self-deceptions are always good. These self-deceptions are always harmful.

Starting point is 00:13:48 The idea of deceiving yourself on the surface doesn't seem like a good idea, that that would be something that you would want to stay away from. And yet what you're saying is that it really serves a purpose. As I followed the research and I followed the science, it became abundantly clear to me that in some ways, ordinary living, being functional as a human being, requires a robust amount of self-deception. That in fact, if you don't have a robust amount of self-deception, you're not going to be able to function in your day-to-day life. This is true when it comes to your personal relationships. It's going to come to your academic success. It's going to come true in your

Starting point is 00:14:27 professional success. If you're an amateur sports person, it's going to affect you. It affects you in all manner of these different domains. Someone who sees reality for what it is and can see nothing but reality for what it is, in some ways, is less functional than the person who can draw on these self-deceptions in times of need. Are you shining a light on something that maybe we're better off not shining a light on? Because if I'm deceiving myself and it's working and then along comes Shankar and telling me that I'm really basically a fraud, well, then I'm going to feel bad. Yeah. So one thing to take heart in is the reason our brains come up with these self-deceptions

Starting point is 00:15:12 is because our brains fundamentally are not in the business of seeing reality accurately. The reason our brains have evolved over millions of years of evolution is our brains have evolved for a very simple goal, which is to help us to adapt to our world and to survive. Those are the goals that the brains have, adaptation, survival. Now, if seeing reality accurately helps you to adapt and survive, the brain is beautifully calibrated

Starting point is 00:15:36 to see reality accurately. If a tiger were to show up at your neighborhood tomorrow, you know, your brain is perfectly calibrated to take that reality into account and to take precautions against that predator. However, if adaptation and survival call for you not to see reality accurately, your brain, again, is perfectly well calibrated

Starting point is 00:15:56 not to see that reality accurately. So it's absolutely the case that I suppose that if I come along and tell you, look, your brain is doing all of this stuff behind the scenes to keep you from seeing reality accurately, it's a legitimate question to ask. In some ways, is this impeding the functional way the brain operates? But remember, you're up against four billion years of evolution. Your brain has spent a lot of time perfecting the art of self-deception. So I have very little concern that my book is going to disabuse people of the

Starting point is 00:16:25 self-deceptions that in fact keep their lives intact. We're talking about self-delusion, how we all delude ourselves and why we do it. And my guest is Shankar Vedantam. The name of his book is Useful Delusions, the Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes.

Starting point is 00:16:55 And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers.

Starting point is 00:17:19 It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible. The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared.

Starting point is 00:17:58 It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So Shankar, we've pretty much determined that all of us engage in some self-deception and that that's useful.

Starting point is 00:18:52 But as you point out, there are people who go too far with it, that delude themselves about things that can cause trouble. And so what is it that causes that? Why does it get so out of whack in some people? I think a lot of it actually comes from the architecture of the brain itself. And let me give you, in some ways, the canonical example of self-deception of a useful delusion that I've experienced in my own life. When my daughter was born, she's 15 right now, so this was a while ago, but on the day she was born, I had the sense that not only was she the most special child in the universe, I had the sense that she was the most special child in the history of the universe.

Starting point is 00:19:32 I had the sense that nothing this extraordinary and miraculous had ever happened to anyone else in the history of the universe. Now, of course, if I step back and I put on my science journalist hat, I would have had to tell myself, of course, that must be a delusion. It can't possibly be the case that millions upon millions of parents can believe their child is the most special child in the universe. They can't all possibly be all correct at the same time. But it turns out that this delusion that I had is remarkably useful because as I quickly learned as soon as my daughter was born, parenting is very, very hard. It's time consuming. It's difficult. It's frustrating. It can be irritating. My daughter was really a wonderful child. She was actually a very easy child. But still, parenting turned out to be one of the most difficult things I ever embarked on. And it turned out that my self

Starting point is 00:20:20 deceptions, my delusions about my daughter were an important buffer against the body blows that parenting lands on you. Any parent can tell you this. If you were to very deliberately and methodically and logically draw up all the costs and benefits of having children, especially when you have small children, many parents might logically conclude that children, in fact, are more trouble than they're worth, that they give you many more costs than benefits. But the self-deceptions that nature in some ways endows us with, that generates in our brain, these self-deceptions in some ways keep us, they tilt the scale so that we perceive the benefits to be significantly higher than the costs. And there's obviously a very good reason for this. The reason I exist and you exist and

Starting point is 00:21:03 all of us exist today is because our parents had the very same self-deceptions about us that we do about our children. So this capacity for self-deception, in fact, is driven by a very long-standing need that evolution has of having parents invest greatly, invest heavily in the well-being of their children. So when you ask where do these self-deceptions come from, admittedly, some of these self-deceptions might come from the things that we learn from our cultures and different cultures might have deceptions about different things. But I suspect that the single biggest contributor to these self-deceptions comes about

Starting point is 00:21:40 just because of the brain that we're endowed with, the product of natural selection. We have brains that are designed, as I said, to help us adapt and to survive. And to the extent that self-deceptions help us adapt and survive, our brains come programmed with robust machinery to generate those self-deceptions. To the extent that self-deception can be harmful, unfortunately, alarms don't go off when that happens. So how do you catch yourself? How do you realize that you're deceiving yourself to your own detriment? So you've asked an excellent question, which is, how do we guard against the dangerous delusions? How do we guard against these self-deceptions? And the answer is, you really have to rely on other people to help you,

Starting point is 00:22:29 because in many ways, you are not going to be able to see all the self-deceptions that you have. This is why in some ways it's very useful to have teams where people can communicate with one another and share in some ways what they're seeing about each other's blind spots. A great irony is that our opponents, our enemies, are a wonderful source of insight into our self-deceptions. Because as I said a second ago, we can see the self-deceptions and delusions of our enemies, and it turns out they can see our self-deceptions and delusions very clearly. Now, of course, very few of us want to engage with our opponents, with our enemies, to basically say, tell me what you see when you look at me. Tell me about my behavior. What are you seeing that's paradoxical? Or what are the mistakes that you think I'm making? We often hold our

Starting point is 00:23:10 enemies and opponents at arm's length because it's so unpleasant to hear from them. But it turns out that our opponents and enemies are, in fact, an invaluable source of information about our self-deceptions and delusions if only we would care to stop to listen. I remember being very interested in this whole concept back years ago. I dipped my toe in the water of stand-up comedy, and that didn't last very long. But there were guys there who had been doing comedy for a long time that weren't very good, but they thought they were good. And what was interesting is because stand-up comedy is one of those things where so many other things in life you can make the case for

Starting point is 00:23:52 and argue for and against. Comedy people either laugh or they don't. There's a single test of success. And this guy would, I'm thinking of one guy in particular, who would get up and people wouldn't laugh. But he thought he was good. And here in the face of evidence, people are not laughing at your jokes. He still thought he – so he was deceiving himself about his own self-deception. Yes, that's right.

Starting point is 00:24:18 I mean when you think about this, this is actually I would say not surprising at all because when you think about stand-up comedy, I have never tried my hand at stand-up comedy, but I suspect it's actually one of the most difficult things to do because you're essentially putting yourself out there in front of a live audience. And as you say, there's very clear feedback of whether you're successful or not, and the feedback is instantaneous. And so it's really difficult to do. It's difficult to do well. It's difficult to do well on a consistent basis. And so, you know, people who engage and practice stand-up comedy in some ways require sort of a really robust amount of self-confidence to be able to keep doing it because it takes a certain amount of punishment. It's a little bit like parenting. You know, it takes a certain amount of a hardy constitution to be a stand-up comic, just like it takes a hardy constitution to be a parent, because you get so much negative feedback almost right away.

Starting point is 00:25:08 You know, almost more than a half a century ago, the psychologist Leon Festinger, he infiltrated a group that believed the world was going to come to an end on a certain day. And they had a specific date they believed the world was going to come to an end. It was a little group. And Festinger infiltrated the group because he wanted to understand what would happen to these beliefs when the world, in fact, did not come to an end on that particular day. And he expected that people would say, okay, I made a dreadful mistake. This was a terrible error that I made. I'm going to revise my beliefs. However, emphatically, that is not what happened. When the world did not come to an end on the appointed day, the members of this little group doubled down on their beliefs. They found ways to rationalize their beliefs. In fact,

Starting point is 00:25:49 they came up with stories that said the things that we did, this little group that we did, in fact, prevented Judgment Day from happening, prevented the end of the world from actually occurring. So they came up with rationalizations. So you can see how even when it comes to profound beliefs, like the world is going to come to an end, people are able to come up with delusions to protect, in fact, the integrity of their delusions. So is it really so surprising that someone who's a stand-up comic, who's getting feedback night after night that people are not laughing at his or her jokes, he or she comes up with stories that basically say, you know, I am really funny. It's just that the audience didn't get this joke. I actually, that joke really killed, but the audience was not smart enough to pick up on the joke. We have, again, robust machinery in our heads to pervert the truth if

Starting point is 00:26:35 it'll help us protect our self-concept. I suspect that was what was happening with the stand-up comic you knew. I've always wondered, because there's always those groups that predict the end of the world. And I've always wondered what they do the next day. Like, well, I always figure they all go, oh man, what happened? But you're probably right. They probably, they come up with some explanation that puts them in a good light, that they did everything they could. And as you point out, that they think they're the reason the world didn't come to an end. Well, that's a good day when you think you stopped the world from ending. Can you imagine? I mean, you think you're the superhero for preventing the world from ending. I mean, you could have that feeling every day. In fact, if you believe the world was going to end tomorrow and it doesn't end tomorrow, you can pat yourself

Starting point is 00:27:22 on the back and say, see, I kept the world intact. So, you know, at the one level, it is sort of comical and it is funny that people are able to do that. On the other hand, you can actually say this is what all of us are doing, perhaps not to the same extent, but all of us in some ways are engaging in the same kind of behavior on a routine basis. And one way I know this is the case is that if you look at people who have certain forms of mental illness, especially forms of illness like depression, you know, for a long time, people believed that people with depression were seeing the world with a delusional pessimism, that, you know, the belief was that people who are mentally healthy are seeing the world accurately.

Starting point is 00:27:59 People who are depressed are seeing the world with a delusional pessimism. Over the last 20 or 30 years, a number of studies have actually advanced a different theory. And the different theory is actually quite startling. It's that people with certain forms of depression might in fact be seeing the world accurately. They might in fact be seeing the world exactly for what it is. And it's the people who are mentally healthy who are seeing the world with a delusional optimism. And what I take away from that research is really, to some extent, being mentally healthy, being well-adjusted, being able to function well in the world

Starting point is 00:28:30 might not be entirely about seeing the world accurately. It, in fact, might be about coming up with stories that buffer you against the setbacks and challenges and obstacles that you perceive, coming up with stories that tell you, you know, yes, today might not be a good day, but tomorrow is going to be a better day. When you lose the ability to do that, when in some ways the misery and the suffering and the setbacks that you've experienced consume you, you tip over from being mentally healthy to being mentally ill. You essentially say, you know, this person needs therapy, this person needs help, this person needs help. And the irony here is the help that you're providing to this person needs therapy, this person needs help, this person needs help. And the irony here is the help that you're providing to this person might require them to be pulled out of seeing reality

Starting point is 00:29:10 accurately to seeing reality delusionally. This whole idea that we're all deceiving ourselves is so interesting. Well, I think it's interesting, but maybe I'm deceiving myself that it's interesting. Shankar Vedantam has been my guest. The name of his book is Useful Delusions, The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. He's also the host of the podcast Hidden Brain, which I think you'd really enjoy. There's a link to his book and to his podcast in the show notes. Thank you for being here, Shankar. Thank you so much for having me on, Mike. It's been a delight hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Starting point is 00:30:20 or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

Starting point is 00:30:40 There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. When I say the word flirting, you know exactly what I mean. People flirt. They talk with each other. But flirting is different than chit-chat or small talk because somewhere in the mix there is an element of romance or sexual attraction. And what's interesting is that flirting is different in different parts of the world

Starting point is 00:31:21 and even in different parts of the United States. And there are more and less effective ways to flirt. And sometimes flirting can get you in trouble when it's not appropriate. So here to help sort out the subject of flirting is somebody who has studied the topic pretty thoroughly. Jean Smith is a social and cultural anthropologist who is arguably one of the leading authorities on the art and science of flirting. And she's author of a book on the subject called Flirtology. Hi, Jean. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you, Mike. Nice to be here. So I was a little surprised to read that flirting behavior is different in different parts of the world. Because, I guess, because I always

Starting point is 00:32:06 thought, you know, flirting is flirting. But that's not what you found. I researched flirting behavior in New York, Paris, London, and Stockholm. And I found there, there definitely was a difference in the way people flirted. But with my own experience, for example, I lived in Japan, and I needed the help of the Japanese teacher who sat next to me at my desk to interpret the Japanese male flirting behavior because it was so subtle and I didn't even realize it was happening. So there are definitely different levels of how obvious a culture is. So how do you define flirting? What's flirting and how is it different than other kinds of conversation? Okay, right. This is actually the most important question. And it was the first

Starting point is 00:32:53 question I asked people in my interviews. I interviewed 250 people. And the problem is, I don't think there's any other word in our language that has so many different definitions for the same word. So for example, for the people in New York, flirting was just like a fun and playful way to engage. And in London, especially the males would say it's a way to possibly get into a relationship or it's a means to an end. They didn't necessarily like the path, but they liked what they would get at the end. In Stockholm, flirting was just about eye contact. And in Paris, actually in London, they were quite wary of flirting, like people weren't necessarily being genuine. So yeah, this is the big problem, Mike, is like everyone has a different definition. I think what I found that I can say pretty conclusively is actual flirting has some sort

Starting point is 00:33:49 of sexual undertone. And that is what differentiates it from, for example, being charming, which the London females would say. They'd say, well, I don't know if I flirt, but I'm charming. Or the New York women would say, well, I'm nice and friendly. I don't know if I necessarily flirt. And so this has always been interesting to me that is flirting, must flirting be a means to an end? Because in my single days, I enjoy, I enjoyed flirting with people, not because I necessarily wanted it to go anywhere. I just liked the banter. It was

Starting point is 00:34:28 a beginning, middle, and end all by itself. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing. Flirting definitely doesn't have to lead anywhere. And in a way, part of the fun and excitement of flirting is the unknown, especially when you're single. This is why some people come to me and they say, how can I keep flirting in my relationship? It's like, well, once you're married, there are much less unknowns. So when you're single and flirting, you know, nothing could happen, something could happen, this person could be your friend, you might never see them again. So yeah, definitely just for the fun of it, you can flirt. But if you're chatting, even if there's somewhat of a sexual charge in the conversation, if you're not hoping for anything,

Starting point is 00:35:12 are you still flirting or are you just talking? I think most people, at least in the U.S., think of flirting as that it at least could go somewhere. I wouldn't say most people. I'd say some people, like especially if you're looking for something or you need something or you're single and you want something. But, you know, there's a lot of people in relationships and flirting makes you feel alive. You remember that side of you. And it's also, you know, this is what people would tell me. And I agree. It's a fun way to pass the time. You mentioned the banter, and there's nothing better than getting in some really good banter with someone and, you know, the sparks. I don't think you can talk about flirting, at least in the 21st century.

Starting point is 00:35:57 If you're going to talk about flirting, which we are, I think you have to talk about the potential for trouble. When does flirting become harassment? Where is that line? Yes, I'm glad you brought that up because it's really quite simple. I teach it as test and assess. And actually, it works really well in our time of COVID as well, because people have different ideas about how close they want you to stand or do they want to talk to you. So this test and assess method is useful across all sorts of planes. And what this is, is you test the water by asking a question. And then you leave space.

Starting point is 00:36:37 And this is what's been missing. And when we're talking about harassment and this and that, There was zero space to actually look at how the other person was receiving this. It was just like straight in with no consideration for the other party. So the test and assess is you ask a question, you pause, you look and you see, okay, what's their body language like? Are they backing away? Are they leaning in? Are they smiling? Have they responded? What's their response? And that's the assessment. And then, you know, you're good to go. You can gauge, okay, they don't like this, I'm going to leave, or actually, they're really receptive, I'm going to continue.

Starting point is 00:37:14 Well, what's that question? I imagine that has a lot to do with what kind of response you get. Yeah, basically, it's, you ask a question about the context of your situation. So you just start with a regular friendly question. You don't start, you know, the Joey Tribbiani, how you doing? That's a bit too intense for everyone. And it's just, let's say you're at the supermarket and they're looking at something. So what they're looking at would be the prop that would enable you to ask them a question. So you'd say, oh, have you tried that before?

Starting point is 00:37:45 Do you know anything about this product? What do you think of this? And that's it. Or if you're at, let's say you're at, you know, you're playing tennis or something. I just got back from the tennis court, so it's fresh in my mind. And you're just like, oh, have you booked this court?

Starting point is 00:38:01 Or, oh, is this your tennis ball? Or something like that. And again, if they're friendly and receptive, then you think, oh, I can carry on. But if they're like, or they're just kind of short answer, then they don't want to engage with you at that moment. That's fine. I can imagine people hearing you say that and think, well, see, here's the problem. I don't want to go to the store and pick out a grapefruit and get hit on. I don't want that. Right. So here's the thing. We have to back up. And I should have been clear in this. The first step and the intent isn't, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:38:32 hit on this person. It's, I'm going to ask this human a question. And when we sort of take it down to this base level, first of all, it takes off so much pressure off of everyone. And this is the key. Pressure is the enemy of flirting. So if we can just make it as like simple and straightforward and easy as possible. So we look over and see someone who looks interesting and we just, and we know nothing about them. So before we build up all these things in our mind about this person, what they're going to say, what's the eventual outcome, we just go over and we just ask them a question like, oh, have you tried this before? And from there, we can start the potential, whatever might happen or not.

Starting point is 00:39:12 But we don't want to start it way too early before we have zero information. And you see how that sort of changes the energy or the even attitude of the outcome. It goes from like being hit on by, okay, a human is asking me a question, and I can answer however I want. But don't most people, like, if I'm squeezing melons at the grocery store, or a woman is squeezing melons at the grocery store, and some guy comes over and asks her about melons, don't most women know, he doesn't really want to know about melons, he's just testing the waters here. So I think there's a danger in creating a narrative before something has happened. I hear what you're saying, and you chose a specifically, like,

Starting point is 00:39:58 you know, almost sexual example about squeezing melons, right? But if we just take it to like the everyday, you know, someone's looking at a box of cereal or this or that. So there's two points here. One is let's not take the most extreme example. And the second thing is let's not create a narrative in the future that hasn't happened yet. So it's about staying in the moment. And the reason why I stress this is because once we get into the future, we can create whatever scenario we want. And guess what? It's usually not a positive one. It's usually not one that makes us think, yeah, I want to go ask that stranger question. It's one that usually makes us turn around and do nothing. And that's

Starting point is 00:40:37 why everyone's moving to the apps is because they're afraid of doing this in real life. They're afraid of talking to people, to connecting. They're afraid what's going to happen. They're going to get rejected. You've identified some of what you call the myths of flirting. So let's talk about some of them. What are they? One of the myths is that only men can make the move.

Starting point is 00:41:01 And this is something that I feel is so outdated. Anyone can make the move. If we look at it from an economic perspective, let's think of the 50s or 60s. Men had most of the jobs. Women often worked inside the home. They had more economic opportunity. Therefore, they also were expected to pay for the dates, and they were expected to maybe even have transport to pick up the woman. I'm talking about heterosexuals at the moment. But this economic situation has now changed because with the economic power, you also get choice. So back then, the man was expected to also, you know, be brave enough to ask out the woman, but then had all the responsibility that came with that. But he had the choice. And that

Starting point is 00:41:43 is a really important thing. But nowadays, the economics are changing. They're not perfect, but they're definitely changing. And with women having more economic power, it also means that they need to be and have the privilege of being more assertive and choosing as well. So this is sort of what some of the New York guys said in my research. They were a little bit like, oh, the women want to have their cake and eat it too. They want us to pay for everything. And they also want us to ask them out. But I think what a lot of, I think we haven't quite changed quickly enough through the times that now women should also be asking men out.

Starting point is 00:42:21 Just, we don't, these rules seem so old-fashioned, and I don't know why we're still stuck. It's nothing to do with biology. Yeah, but don't you, well, you've talked to people, you've done the research. I've always had this sense that, you know, women know that they could ask out men, but they like being asked out, that they would prefer to be the recipient rather than the initiator? That's definitely a personality thing. And in fact, I've always said, why isn't it the people who ask out linked to your personality? Like, for example, extroverts do the asking out and introverts are the recipients because there's plenty of introverted men and extroverted women. So that's definitely a personal preference. But from my research,

Starting point is 00:43:05 I have found that a lot of women still feel they need to stick to these rules. But at the end of the day, if you're the recipient, it means you won't be rejected because the other person has made the first move. And I think a lot of people like that idea. But then of course, you have less choice. You only have the choice of, you know, the few people who've been brave enough to ask you out. What about where you do this? It seems like the context, the situation matters. Flirting at work is probably less acceptable than at a bar and flirting at a funeral is probably not a really good idea. But context is everything. Yeah, it is. And it's also the best way to meet people. And this is this is meet anyone is commonality and proximity. And the two work together really

Starting point is 00:43:53 well. So what I mean by that is, first of all, you're probably going to have things in common with the people who are close to you anyways. But if you add the proximity, the more that we run into people, the more we actually like them. And this is called the mere exposure effect. So the more that we're exposed to people, the more we like them. So thinking about where you go all the time in your daily life, your commonality and your proximity, those are the places where you just need to start asking people questions. That's it. You ask everyone one question in the context of where you are, and then you do the tests and assess. You see how they respond.

Starting point is 00:44:34 But do you think that when people start a conversation, and again, I understand what you say about, you know, don't get too far ahead of yourself. You're just asking a question. But do you have a sense that most of us know when we're being flirted with right away? No, I don't think it's true. In fact, I found in my research, a lot of people miss it. They say, well, I'm a friendly person, so I think they're just being friendly. Or like, especially some of the London males, they were just like, if they're not writing it in huge letters, like the Skywriter or something, I'm not going to get it. So a lot of people, they don't get it at all.

Starting point is 00:45:16 So you think you're being flirting even before you start flirting and that the other person is already on to you and you're already feeling weird about it when in fact nothing's happened yet. Exactly. And it's such a personal thing. Like we all have different levels. We have different levels of openness, of understanding. And we think that other people have our exact same level, but they don't. So what happens when people from different cultures, and you said it sort of happened to you, that when you're not familiar with the flirting rules where you are I imagine it can get kind of weird yes exactly I remember going to Paris when I was in my 20s and I'm from Iowa

Starting point is 00:46:14 originally and I'm used to like making eye contact and smiling at people and I was doing that in Paris and I mean I attracted the wrong people until my French friend was like, Jean, you don't make direct eye contact with strange men. They're going to think you're up for it. It's like, oh, good to know. And as you look back, has flirting changed much? I mean, I know we have electronics and we do it online now and all that, but are the basics of flirting fairly constant or do they evolve?

Starting point is 00:46:43 That is an interesting question. No one has ever asked me that before. I think it's changed in two major ways. And one is the electronic devices. And I think it's become more about quantity and less about quality. Very one dimensional. That's my opinion. Other people might love it, but I don't think that's the way forward. But again, everyone has gone to these devices

Starting point is 00:47:11 because the insecurity about not being rejected. And part of the reason they've done this is the second thing I'm about to mention, and that is the changing of gender roles and what's expected. So when I did my research in Paris, this was over 10 years ago, especially Paris comes to mind because men had very specific roles in the flirting and women had very specific roles and nobody crossed. But the way society is now is that's, you know, that's very old fashioned. So now everyone's confused. Well, what am I supposed to do? You know, men are like, can I still ask out women? I don't want to overstep.

Starting point is 00:47:51 Women are like, oh, we're not allowed to ask men out. Well, yeah, you are. So everyone is so confused about the rules that they've just all hidden behind their phones. Yeah, that's interesting, because if you if people are all confused about the rules, if you're flirting and it's going well and then it's time to like, you know, wrap it up, move on to the next step, whatever, nobody knows what to do because, you know, well, I like him to do it. Well, if she's really interested, she'll ask me and nothing ever happens. Yes, exactly. And that's why I'd like to stress what I did earlier. Like, my clients are men and women, and everyone should be doing this.

Starting point is 00:48:30 We connect first as humans, we test it out, and then if we want to move to flirting, great, wonderful. But again, it takes the pressure off, and it makes it easier just to have connections with humanity. Well, I like your approach of, you know, not getting all your head all into this idea that you're now going to flirt and that the flirting is about to commence and that it is take it down a notch. If you do it the way that I've explained, which is first just asking a question, you know, not going up all like, you know, intense and I'm going to flirt with you, but just connecting as a human being, asking one question and then assessing their reaction, there's going to be zero problems. But it would seem, because at some point for this to become flirting, according to your

Starting point is 00:49:18 definition, where it has to get a little bit sexual, somebody has to dive into that pool. And that's where I think people are afraid. Yeah. And by the way, when I say a little bit sexual, just to clarify, just as sort of like, we're bringing our sexuality into it. That's what flirting is. Not that, you know, sex is going to be the outcome. So just to clarify that. But see, that happens if it's meant to happen in a natural way after you and that person have started in the interaction. You can't decide at the beginning, especially of not knowing someone, I'm going to flirt with them. It happens if once you start exchanging a few lines and you get the feeling and you're like, oh, I like the sound of their voice or, oh, actually, they're even more attractive than I thought, that's when it will naturally move to flirting. So it's much more organic than I think people think, especially when, you know, you hear

Starting point is 00:50:14 people say, oh, you know, I've got a great line. Well, you know, probably not. Probably not. It seems like we've all heard all those lines and they're really, really corny and stupid. And, and boy, if that, if that doesn't telegraph, you're getting hit on, you know, what does. You're right. The word is organic. It's much more organic than people think it is. And when we look at it as a natural way of just people interacting again, it takes the pressure off, which is really what you want to try and do.

Starting point is 00:50:48 Yeah, and just let it happen if it's going to happen. Exactly. Yeah, well, this has been fun and interesting. And I think, you know, it takes the pressure off to hear you talk. Flirting doesn't have to be this thing that you build up in your head. It's just, it's much more, and it's just a conversation. My guest has been Jean Smith. She is a social and cultural anthropologist.

Starting point is 00:51:12 She's author of the book Flirtology, and there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. And she also has a website, flirtology.com, and I'll have that in the show notes as well. Well, it's summertime, the world is opening up, and it's time to take a vacation. And yet, as many as 50% of American workers don't take all their vacation time. If you're one of them, consider these facts. A State University of New York survey found that men who took annual vacations

Starting point is 00:51:46 reduced their risk of death by 20%. Men who didn't take any vacations in five years had the highest death rate and incidence of heart disease than any other men surveyed. A study by Wisconsin Medical Journal found that women who took frequent vacations were less likely to become depressed, tense, or tired. Workers who take vacations are less likely to experience burnout, making them more creative and productive than their overworked, under-rested counterparts.

Starting point is 00:52:19 What's really odd is that more of us are canceling vacations voluntarily. No one's asking us to. Why? Probably because people feel guilty or fear being fired while they're gone, or they worry they'll miss out on something important if they're not at work. But the data shows that vacations are vital for health, longevity, productivity, and creativity. And that is something you should know you are our best advertising to help us grow this podcast by telling people you know about something you should know and having them give a listen please do that tell someone share the link and let them listen i'm mike caruthers thanks for listening today to something you Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

Starting point is 00:53:09 In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer,

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Starting point is 00:53:51 Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Rudolf Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Redolph Buntwine,

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Something You Should Know - Why You Deceive Yourself and How That’s a Good Thing & The Science of Flirting

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