Something You Should Know - Why You Get Angry & The Problems Faced by Dual Career Couples

Episode Date: November 28, 2019

Timing is everything. And when you have a big decision to make, the time of day you choose to make it is more important than you might realize. This episode begins with explanation of why it matters and what is the best time of day to decide anything. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-make-better-decisions-2016-11 Have you ever stopped to think what things make you most angry? When you do get angry, how do you react? What do you do with your anger? Listen as I explore these questions and more with Ryan Martin. He is a professor of psychology and associate dean at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay and has studied anger extensively. He even has a TED talk about it called The Upside of Anger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfcQaXG_Qhs). After you hear this, you’ll get a better understanding of why you get angry and how to handle it. You can’t cure the common cold or flu but there is a technique that can help you not catch them in the first place. In fact, according to research, you can reduce your chances by 40% by doing it. Listen to hear what this simple technique is that was reported in the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/health/28real.html?_r=0 When you are in a relationship and both of you have your own careers, there are bound to be conflicts and problems. Professor Jennifer Petriglieri has studied and examined these problems and has some great advice to help couples find ways to pursue their professional goals and dreams while being in a rewarding and satisfying relationship. Jennifer is author of a book on the topic called Couples That Work (https://amzn.to/37GxWd2). This Week’s Sponsors -The Undercovers podcast. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-undercovers/id1479344440 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, if you have a big decision to make, when during the day you make it really matters. Then an important discussion on anger, how to use it constructively, and the interesting reasons we get angry in the first

place. Sometimes it's about how we feel we should be treated. There's a lot of what other psychologists have referred to as shouldistic thinking, right? I should be treated this way. Other people should do this. That plays into whether or not we get angry. Also, an effective way to prevent colds and flu this time of year. And how do dual-career couples maintain a strong relationship and still pursue their individual career goals. Because it's a juggling act of thinking about how do each partner get what they want? How do they get a shot to pursue their dreams in a way that doesn't hurt the other partner pursuing their own? All this today on Something You Should Know.

People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice

you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. This episode is being published on Thanksgiving Day, so happy Thanksgiving. And if you have some time off, I invite you to check out the archives. There are 300 episodes of Something You Should Know available, and I know many, if not all of them, you would find interesting, so feel free to binge listen all weekend long. First up today, when you have to make a decision, an important decision, be very careful when you make it. And mornings probably are best.

Even the wisest people don't make good choices when they're not rested and their glucose is low, according to social psychologist Roy Baumeister. That's why smart people don't restructure their company at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, they don't make major commitments during the cocktail hour, and if a decision does have to be made late in the day, they know not to do it on an empty stomach.

When your glucose is low, your brain responds more strongly to immediate rewards and less likely to prioritize long-term prospects. In conclusion, have a snack, maybe a nap, and maybe just wait till tomorrow morning to make that decision. And that is something you should know. When was the last time you got mad? Probably not that long ago, because, well, people get mad. It's human. Why do we get mad? Is there value in it?

Some people get mad and their anger gets them in trouble. Other people are able to use their anger constructively. So let's get really clear and specific about why you get mad and what you should do with that anger with my guest, Ryan Martin. Ryan is a professor of psychology and associate dean at the University of Wisconsin at Green Bay, and he teaches courses on mental illness, emotion, anger, and violence. Hi, Professor. Welcome. Hi. Thanks for having me. Sure. So why do we get mad?

I mean, I think I know why I get mad. I get mad usually because something or someone has done something to upset me. Yep, that's what a lot of people say, right? I get mad because people keep messing with me and causing me problems and grief. Sometimes it is actually as simple as that. Most of the time, though, it is a lot more complicated. And so, of course, it starts with something that we perceive as a provocation, right? This is some sort of stimulus in our environment, usually, that we interpret as being either like goal blocking. So it interferes with our ability to achieve some goal or we consider it unjust or unfair. Now, what matters most, though, is not necessarily, I mean, of course, there are things that are going to be inherently angering. But at the same time, a big part of this is how we interpret that stimulus or that

provocation. So we, on some level, have to decide this is unfair unfair or this is blocking my goals. We also have to decide how bad this is. You know, is this going to ruin my day, my week, my month, my year, my life, my career? And if we say, hey, this is blocking my goals and it's catastrophic, we're way more likely to get angry. Well, sure. If it's going to be catastrophic and ruin my week or my month or my year, that's going to make me angry. But, you know, I remember hearing somebody say, I think it was about stress, but it seems to apply here, that you get angry because things aren't the way you want them to be,

that something shows up that gets in your way, which is what you were just saying. It blocks your goal, and you get stressed out because things aren't the way you want them to be, and then it's what you do with that that determines how things go. Right. And so, I mean, I think that is a very nice, simple way of putting it, right? We get angry when things aren't the way we want them to be. And sometimes that is because our goals are being blocked. And I define goals very broadly. So sometimes a goal is, you know, I'm trying to achieve a particular thing in my career. But sometimes a goal is I'm trying to get coffee and the line at Starbucks is too long. And so, you know, goals can mean a lot of different things. Sometimes that's about kind of treatment and how we feel we should be treated. There's a lot of what other psychologists have referred to as shouldistic thinking, right? I should be treated this way something's going to ruin my day or week or year or career, I'm going to get angry.

A big part of this, though, is that sometimes those things aren't really going to ruin our day or week or year. We just think they are in the moment. And you oftentimes hear people say later, like, yeah, I realize now that this being stopped by the train this morning wasn't catastrophic, but it sure felt catastrophic at the time. Isn't that always the case that so often things seem so much worse than retrospect tells you they were? That in the moment they just seem, oh my God, this is just ruining my day. That guy just took my parking spot. Well, so what? But at the time, it just feels crazy-making, and it makes you angry.

And what's the point of that? Yeah, so I'm going to share a story about, wow, 16, 17 years ago, I was on my way to my first ever professional conference. It was the American Psychological Association Conference. It was in Chicago. And I was staying outside of town. So I allowed plenty of time to, I thought, to get into town the next morning and get there in time for my first ever session. And massive torrential rains occurred. It ended up taking me, a drive that would normally take between 45 minutes and an hour ended up taking about an hour and a half, making me a good 20 minutes late for my session. And I spent the first part of that time just fuming in my car and just saying, wow, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. It's going to destroy my career. And I was thinking about how mad my advisor would be

at me for being late. And he wasn't even going to be there, by the way. But all of these things. And then finally, at one point, stopped and really sort of asked myself the questions that I encourage lots of people to ask themselves. And that's, you know, how bad is this really? What is the real outcome here? And, you know, kind of established, well, it's they would. You know, how many people was my advisor even going to find out? I mean, he would because I told him, but it's not as though this was going to somehow get back to him in some sort of way. That would be really upsetting, and I'm certain he would understand. walk through those questions, we realize, you know what, the outcome of this isn't as catastrophic as we think it's going to be. The outcome is actually pretty manageable, and with some simple problem solving, we can deal with it. And doesn't it also seem, and you're using your example, so you're running late, and you're upset, and then if you got like five minutes from where you were going and the road was closed, that would make you like compound it more than if it was just the road was closed.

Because it's like the hole is bigger than the sum of its parts. It just adds to it and makes it worse and worse and worse, and yet each one of those things would be relatively manageable. Yeah, you know, earlier when you asked why we get mad, one piece that I neglected to mention is what we call the pre-anger state. And the pre-anger state is the mood we're in right when the stimulus or the provocation happens. So what is my mood when I hit that red light or when I hit that train? I got stopped by a train this morning, by the way, two days in a row, which is why I keep coming up

with this example. So what mood was I in when that happened? And if we are hungry, if we are tired, if we are stressed, or if we are already angry, it makes things that much worse. And you're right, it does sort of compound. It becomes, in some ways, you know, we use the expression, you know, just one more thing, but it doesn't feel like just one more thing. It feels like the umpteenth more thing on a pile of problems that end up kind of locking us in and exaggerating or enhancing that anger that we feel. Right. Well, it gets to the point where it feels as if the world is just sabotaging your life. It's just like it's one thing after another. And then it doesn't seem like then you start to look for things that are going to make you even more angry just to verify and confirm

that indeed the world is sabotaging your life. Yep. And so there's two really important psychological concepts that you just brought up. One of them is one of the types of angry thinking that we consider is called overgeneralizing. And it's when you start using words like always and never. So I always hit every red light or things never go my way. And people tend to do this when, especially chronically angry people, tend to do this. They tend to pull out this overgeneralizing. And of course, it makes everything seem so much worse. If I interpret getting stomped at a red light as, oh, this is disappointing. I don't like it when this happens. That's a very different type of thought than this happens all the time, right? Or I hit every red light or I always hit every red light,

which is another one, right? So two overgeneralizations. The other thing you mentioned is something we refer to as mood or emotion-specific memories. And one of the things we know is that when you're in a particular mood, whether you're sad or angry or scared or just even in a negative mood, you tend to remember things. It's easier for you to remember things that are angering or scary or sad. And so we do actually sort of either pick out angering memories or we pick out negative emotional experiences in our life when we're feeling a certain way. And what does that do? It would seem to me, from my own experience, that when I get angry,

when I get upset about things getting in my way, it somehow inhibits my ability to solve them, because that anger thing is right in my face, and I can't objectively look at the problem. Yeah, one of the downsides of anger is that it tends to lock our thinking in a little bit and close our minds down. And so we know that people are actually most creative when they are in a good mood, when they are happy. And so researchers have found this through what we call mood induction research, where you basically put people in a good mood by making them happy, by making them laugh, you know, showing them videos of happy-making things. And then you ask them to do creative tasks or tasks that require creativity. And you find that people are more creative when they are in a good mood. They're less creative when they're sad or angry. And so that is one

of the downsides here is that even though I would argue that in many cases, anger is good for us and healthy, it does tend to lock our thinking down into one particular way. And we are less able to solve problems if and when we get locked into that. I'm speaking with Ryan Martin. He is a professor of psychology and associate dean at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay. Contained herein are the heresies of red off punt wine first while monk turned traveling medical investigator join me as i study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth that ours is not a loving god and we are not its favored children the heresies of redolph bunt, wherever podcasts are available.

Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're gonna like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests,

but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy,

it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back. And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better,

more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Ryan, your TED Talks call the upside ofer, but I haven't heard any of that yet. So what's the benefit of this? Yeah, so the benefit really comes from, and I'm glad you asked, that if we think about emotions, as I do, from an evolutionary perspective, and so we think about the value they served our ancestors, both human and non-human, they essentially, in the case of anger, it alerts us to injustice. So it's one of the ways that our brain communicates to us that we've been

treated badly. And then more importantly, or as importantly, it energizes us to confront that injustice. So when your heart rate increases, when your muscles tense up, when you get kind of that tunnel vision focused on a particular problem, that's really your body energizing you to confront whatever that thing is. The catch is that if we think about it from an evolutionary perspective, again, our brains aren't necessarily designed to help us channel that anger into an adaptive way of responding to the threat, right? It tends, you know, our ancestors dealt with those sorts of injustices through aggression. And so our brains are sort of built to do that. And so we have to find ways to catch ourselves and to channel that anger into something

more productive, something more helpful. How do you do that? Yeah. And so that's the part that requires practice. We need to get used to being able to catch ourselves and make the intentional decisions to catch ourselves before we've acted in any kind of aggressive way. And I include in when I talk about aggressive ways, I include being verbally aggressive. I also include just yelling and screaming at the heavens. You know, we need to catch ourselves and start to think about the ways in which we can use this more productively. And maybe that's, you know, if our anger is stemming from a political issue, maybe that's protest. Maybe it's writing letters to the editor. Maybe it's voting. I talk to a lot of artists and writers who talk about how their anger kind of fuels their art, fuels their sculpting, fuels their did just talk about how when you're angry, it inhibits your thinking.

And so how do you then use the anger to do better thinking when it just inhibited your thinking? So I'll start with an example. Almost 10 years ago, about eight years ago, I had two young children, both under two years old. As a new parent, I was exhausted almost all the time. I came home from work one day and my wife was not yet home with the kids. And I thought, oh my goodness, I've got, you know, like 30 minutes here of just sort of time to relax. I could even take a nap maybe. And so I thought, I'm just going to go inside, lay down and relax, sort of do nothing for a little bit. Decided to get the mail first.

And it was political season, so there was a campaign coming up. And so my mail was, of course, filled with ads for different candidates, some of which I got very, very angry about. I'm not going to say they made me mad because I already said that's not how anger works, right? I appraised them in such a way that I got angry. And that anger took over my system. I was no longer exhausted. I was ready to go and ready to fight for causes that I believed in. And so I went inside, I sat down, I sent two emails, one to the candidate I supported and said, hey, I want you to know I got this ad. It was really disappointing to me to see people treat you this way. I want you to know I got this ad. It was really disappointing to me to see people treat you this way. I hope you know that I support you. I sent another email to the person

who provided the ad. I told them that I thought, for the record, it was what I deemed offensive. So a level up, not just I don't agree. I said, I found this ad really upsetting. I'm just letting you know that I don't appreciate this sort of discourse. And then I donated money to the candidate I support. And by the time I was all done, the rest of my family came home. I kind of lost my relaxation time, but at the same time, I didn't feel like I needed it anymore. And so that's the way that anger can serve as that fuel. Now, as you pointed out, though, the challenge, and this is the piece that just requires intentional practice, deciding how you are going to handle those things in the moment and deciding in advance how you want to

handle those things so that when it happens, you're not quite as locked in. I had a soccer coach once who used to say instead of practice makes perfect, he would say practice makes permanent, that how you practice things is how you're going to do them in real life. You know, we have to make these decisions when we're not angry so that they will then bleed over into our angry life later on. You mentioned earlier that evolutionarily, humans use aggression to get out their anger. And, you know, I remember there was talk about, you know, when you're angry, you should punch a pillow or whatever. Is it a good idea to, if you're angry, to express it through non-threatening aggression, like, you know, go in a room and scream or punch a pillow?

Is that a good idea? No. So it's actually, I'm glad you asked, because it's actually a terrible idea. We have years and years, decades, actually, of research on what we call the catharsis myth. And that is the idea that it's smart to go punch a pillow or break things. Or, you know, we've seen over the last 10 years or so, these rage rooms cropping up all over where people can just go and break things. Ultimately, it goes back to that practice makes permanent thing that I mentioned before, that those places and that behavior, it just means that you're more likely to act

in that aggressive way when you are angered. And so it doesn't ultimately get your anger out or get your aggression out. It kind of leaves it at the surface and teaches you that the best way to deal with it is through violence. And so we pretty actively discourage people from doing that. Sure seems like it would help sometimes. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the interesting thing about it is that people tell me, but it feels good, right? And that's probably true. It does feel good to break things when you're aggressive. But as we know from a host of other sorts of phenomena, just because something feels good doesn't mean it's actually good for you.

But I know for myself, if I'm angry, or maybe it's just if I'm stressed, but stress and anger seem to walk hand in hand here and maybe cut from the same mold. But if I'm angry and upset about something, and let's say I go to the gym and lift weights, I feel better. I feel less stressed. I feel less angry. So it seems that that aggression works. So this is one interesting caveat, is that we do find that exercise, when you're not angry, of course, is good for you and is a stress reliever. Exercise when you're angry tends to kind of have a similar impact as some of that catharsis that I was talking about, that it ends up being another form of catharsis. This is one of those findings that was actually surprising to me. I always assumed that exercise

when you're angry is great for you, and that's a good thing to do. But it tends to have that same sort of outcome as catharsis, where you're kind of breaking things and things like that. Part of it's just that it, in some ways, it's funny because if you think about it in terms of fear, you would never assume that when you're really, really scared of something that the smart thing to do is to go for a run. You know, you would, or at least I would think that that wouldn't be a healthy response. The same thing ends up being true of anger. What you want to do is try and relax, try and take deep breaths to decrease that already present elevation of heart rate and muscle tension and things like that. Well, that's interesting because that doesn't feel right

to me, what you just said, but maybe it's also when you're angry and upset and you go to the gym or you go anywhere else, you get distracted and you get some distance on your problem and maybe you get less angry. But anyway, what's the big takeaway here, do you think? It goes back to that model I started with about why we get mad. And if you think about the provocation and the pre-anger state and how we appraise our anger and then those angry feelings and then what we do with our anger. If you think about that whole picture, to me, the key to quote unquote anger management is thinking about how your anger works in a given situation and where to intervene.

So if I know that I tend to get that a provocation for me is driving and that I get really stressed out when I'm running late and getting stuck in traffic, well, then I can make some very easy changes to my life that helps me minimize how often I experience that provocation. I just always count on more time or I don't let myself get low on gas. That's another big one for me. I get stressed out when I feel like I might run out of gas or something. Those are changes I can make to my life to intervene there. If I know that I tend to lash out when I'm sleep deprived, well, then I can do a better job of getting healthy sleep. If I know that I tend to catastrophize, well, then I can

work on that in the moment and start thinking about the actual impact of this particular provocation on me and what the consequences are going to be. If I know that, you know, I tend to behave in a particular way that's problematic, well, I can start to direct my anger into more positive approaches and more positive outcomes. Well, since we all get angry, it's good to hear that, A, you know, it's normal, everybody does it, and it's probably good to get angry once in a while, but also that you can do things about it to mitigate your anger so it doesn't get in the way so much. Ryan Martin has been my guest. He is a professor of psychology and associate dean at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay. And he has a really interesting TED Talk about this called The Upside of Anger,

which we have a link to that in the show notes. Thank you, Professor. You bet. It was really nice talking to you. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our

Lister poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show,

we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Today, dual career couples are the norm.

And when you have two people in a couple who have different career and professional goals, it would seem like that could be a recipe for a lot of problems and conflicts. Still, it's not something couples probably talk about very much. So we're going to talk about it now with Professor Jennifer Petrolieri. She's author of a book called Couples That Work. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome. Great to be here, Mike. Thanks for having me. So what is basically, in big general broad sweeping terms, the problems

faced by couples that work? What are the challenges that we're addressing here today? The challenges we're addressing are how can we maintain and build two careers that are meaningful to us while having a relationship that's fulfilling over the long term? And it's a question that two-thirds of couples in America are facing today. So it's a really important question that lots and lots of us are thinking about. And why is it so hard? Why is it so difficult to do that? It's a great question. It's difficult, partly because society is not set up for couples to have two careers and a relationship. And it's also difficult because it's a juggling act

of thinking about how do each partner get what they want? How do they get a shot to pursue their dreams in a way that doesn't hurt the other partner pursuing their own. Right, because not too many decades ago, dad worked, mom stayed home, and so it was a single career couple, and that probably had fewer of the kind of problems you're talking about. Yeah, I mean, there was a different set of problems then, but what it means now is that the generations going through the workforce now have no role models. They're the first ones,

really, who are facing these challenges. And they're sort of learning as they go through. And there's not much of advice out there for them. And so here you are with that advice. Exactly. Yeah. So give me some advice. So what do you do as a couple to set things up to prevent trouble in the first place? It's really important as a couple to set a set of principles as a couple around what really matters to us. There's a lot of different things we can go after, but what really matters to us? And that might be specific career goals. It might be having enough time to pursue certain hobbies. It might be financial security. It might be, you know, what kind of couple do we want to be? Do we want to have an adventurous life, have an adventurous

family? All these principles are so important because they form the decision criteria, right? Because one of the things that's so difficult as a working couple is how do we make those decisions around what to pursue and what to let go of? So having these set of principles agreed up front, and obviously having them as an ongoing conversation that we revisit, is a real helpful grounding for couples to navigate any of the challenges or choices they'll face in their lives. So give me an example of what that looks like. I mean, do you put it in writing?

Do you hear my top 10? What does this look like? Yeah, absolutely. I think the best thing you can do is take some time to sit down, literally pen and paper in hand, and think about three areas. One is what matters to us. What are those things that are important to us as a couple and some of those things that are important to us individually in our individual careers? The second is what are the lines we are unwilling to cross?

Now, this is really important because it helps our decision-making if we know what's in and outside of those lines. So they might be things around location, right? What are the places we're just not going to move to? And what are the places that we want to stay in? It's really important when those job opportunities come up. It might be a line around time. You know, how much time do you have to spend at work before it really starts negatively impacting my work? How much time do we want to spend together as a family, as a couple? It might also be lines around things very specific to you. For example, in my career, my husband and I are academics, and it can be very hard to find jobs in the same town, right? Is that acceptable to you? Would you live apart or is that outside

of your boundaries? If we draw these lines, it makes that decision-making a lot easier. And the third thing that's helpful to think down and write about is what are the things we're afraid of happening in our relationships and our careers. And this can be a bit more frightening to talk about. But what's really important in this is if we understand what our partner's worried about, we can do things to stop that happening. And so certainly what I recommend is that couples, you know, write this down. And certainly my husband and I do. We write this down and then it becomes a living document. It's something we go back to, we revisit. And it can be quite a romantic exercise for couples, actually. It sounds strange.

But, you know, to really think through what is it we want out of life and keep a record of that. Well, it's interesting that probably most couples in this situation never do that and they just kind of fumble their way through. We just go day to day and, you know, conflicts arise. But there's never any real thought to, okay, we're both working, let's figure this out. And it's strange, isn't it? Two things are happening here. One is we get fixated on the practicalities, as you said, the day to day. Whose turn is it to do X? You know, have we got enough money to do Y? And of course, these are important things. But what I find in my research is it's not

enough. Unless you've got those foundations right, the fundamentals, no amount of bartering over the practicalities is going to save you. The other thing that's really curious is if we think about our careers these days, we're really good at visioning, right? Where do I want to get to in my career? What do I want to do? Where do I want to go? And yet we rarely turn those skills to our relationship and think, what's the vision for my relationship? What do I want out of being together? What's the direction we need to go in? And, you know, if people apply that skill, they apply so vigorously in their careers to their relationship, really great things can happen. Yeah, but you have to do it. Absolutely, you have to do it, and I think the question is, why don't people do it, right? I think partly they get fixated on

the practicalities, but I think partly it's, you know, as a society, we're just not having the conversations around what does it take to make it work. There's not very much work out there on this. There's not much research, etc. And as I said before, we're what some of the first generations doing this. So we don't have the role models to lead the way. So we're really fumbling around in the dark. Well, one of the more practical things that I think couples deal with is if both people are working, there's always that argument about, okay, so who takes care of the household? Who takes care

of the family? I'm working just as hard as you. Why would you assume I'm going to cook all the meals or I'm going to drive the kids everywhere? Yeah. And I think what's happening here underneath that is really a conversation around where does the balance of power lie in our relationship? When people argue about whose turn it is to pick up the milk, that's never really the issue. The issue is, just as you said, you know, who gets priority? Whose career is most important? Who is respected in their dreams and who is not. And this issue of imbalance of power in couples is what I find one of the root causes of a lot of the conflicts, which appear to be practical conflicts, but they're really down to this question is, do I get a shot at pursuing my dreams or am I always holding myself back so

you can pursue yours? And how do you handle that? Through conversations, certainly not through silence. And I think this is a lot easier if we handle this early on, because I think, you know, no one goes into a relationship thinking machiavellianly, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to grab all the power for myself. This just doesn't happen. What happens is power imbalances over a long time of sweeping little things

under the carpet. And it's very understandable how this happens, right? You know, something happens and we make a small sacrifice to our partner. That's okay. That's what being a relationship is. But if that repeats and repeats and repeats and develops a pattern, that's when the power imbalance really shows up and becomes an issue. So it's about, you know, can we invest in our relationship to talk about what today may

feel a small thing, but if we're not careful, is going to become a big thing in the future? Well, that's true of so many things that if you don't deal with them when they're small things, they become big things and then they're harder to handle and harder to resolve. Absolutely. But they're not impossible to resolve. And I think that's really important to understand is, I mean, I was working with a couple a few weeks ago who the resentments had built up and a big power imbalance had built up. And the way they unpacked it was taking it away from the day-to-day and looking at kind of back to these fundamentals. Okay, what do we both want and how are we going to support each other in that? And by backtracking

to those fundamentals, it's a bit easier to get away from the heat of that resentment. But you're right, the longer we leave it, the harder it is to tackle. So what do you do, though, when what we both want are at odds with each other? That in order for me to get that, you can't have what you want. So, first of all, it's very rare that they're completely at odds with each other.

I think we often imagine that's the case, but it's actually quite rare that it's the case. That said, part of being in a relationship is about moving towards the other person, right? It's a realistic expectation in a relationship that I will change slightly based on what you need and want and vice versa. And I think it's all about a couple negotiating, you know, how far am I going to step towards the middle and how far are you going to step towards the middle? And what's important in a relationship is not to look at it as a tit for tat. You know, you give me this and I give you that.

This is the path to hell. It's laid by tit for tat. It's really about what do we want as a couple and what might, for example, your career opportunity help us do in the future, which will then enable me to push forward in my career. How does gender enter into this? It would seem that male traditional roles of being the bread winner and all that, even if that's a few generations back, still, there's still some of that in the recipe here. Yeah, so it's there, and it's also changing. If

I think of the couples who are under 40 who I spoke to, it's a lot, it holds them a lot less tightly. So I think these are the people who feel a lot less holded to the gender role. I have to be a mother. I have to be present there. And the guy's feeling like I have to be the primary breadwinner. In the older generations, that's definitely still there. And of course, where we see it play out most is in parenting. And that is where society plays a big role

because we still hold on to the belief, which is a false belief in society, that, you know, children are best with their mothers and everything's on the mother. And this is when the gender roles in couples tend to get played out most strongly is at a time when a couple has small kids. And so this all starts really just with a conversation. It really has to start there. Absolutely. And it is, you know, it sounds too simple to be true, but there's so many people, so many people and so many couples not having these conversations and it really holds them back. I mean, let me give you an example around, around the children actually, which is a really interesting example. I was talking to a

couple and they just got married and they were sort of at the age where friends were having children. And when I spoke to couples, I always spoke to them separately so I could really understand their individual positions. And she was really trying to put off having children. And I sort of said, why? You know, I could tell she wanted them. She said, well, you know, my husband, he travels Monday through Thursday. So I know that, you know, not just in the maternity leave, but going forward, I will be the primary parent, you know, forever. And so she was really putting off, putting off. And I spoke to him and he had it all figured out. He said, oh, there's no way I am missing out on being a hands-on dad. As soon as we're pregnant, I'm going to switch roles to a local-based role where I can be there the whole time.

Now, I was flabbergasted they hadn't spoken about this. But if you think about it, she was so worried and so convinced this is going to happen, she didn't want to bring it up. And he was so convinced this is a non-issue, he didn't talk about it. And so the silence in the couple was really blocking them from something they both wanted. It was becoming a point of tension. And there was no reason for it to become a point of tension apart from they both had these imagined worlds that they weren't sharing with each other. Why not? Why didn't they share? Why didn't this come up? Because she was so convinced that this would happen. She didn't want to, you know, have her worst fears confirmed. And it

sounds surprising to us here, but you will be surprised how many times this arises in couples, that we're afraid of something. And so we don't say it for fear that that will be confirmed. Well, that sounds right, though. When you think about that, we can all think of times in our own life, our own relationships, someone who we should be close to and feel we can share everything. And of course, because our life partner holds a big place in our lives, a really important emotional, psychological place, it can be very distressing when this happens in relationships. What are the things that people worry about that in your experience may be not as big an issue as you might think, or the opposite of that, things that people don't think about much that turn into big things? Any insight there from the work you've done that are kind of

red flags one way or the other? Yeah, I mean, I think when people are getting together, there's a few common worries. I think one is around the role of the other person's wider family in their lives. And this can be, you know, a cultural piece, but especially if you live nearby or if there's a strong culture in a particular family, that can be a concern that's very hard to bring up around how are we going to mark the boundaries of our life and our new growing family and the wider family is one that often comes up. Another one that often comes up is geography. You know, where are the places we want to live and where's out of the question? And this is particularly important and top of mind for younger couples

these days because careers are so mobile. You know, we know that we move around jobs a lot these days, much more than we used to. And very often these amazing opportunities come out of the blue, but oh, by the way, it's on the other side of the country. And how are we going to deal with that? And that's something that younger couples tend to sweep under the carpet kind of the country and um and how are we going to deal with that and that's something that younger couples tend to sweep under the carpet kind of and pray nothing happens um and then can run into to troubles you know later on down the road and then if we think of um if we think of couples in the middle of their journey what i talk about in the book is the second transition which is where a point where we're really reassessing. So if we think of when we get to our, usually into our 40s, mid 40s,

we tend, it's a time when we tend to take stock and think, you know, is this really the direction I want to go in? Or are there some adjustments I want to make? And I think here is a point where a lot of couples stop talking to each other about what they really want because they worried about rocking the boat, right? We may have been building a family, building our place in the community. And suddenly when we start to question that, it can feel very frightening to bring those concerns up with our partner, the fear of kind of pulling down this house of cards we've built together. And then I think in slightly later stage, if we think once children have left home, once retirement's on the horizon, but we're not quite there yet, there's a whole other set of

questions and fears that come up around, you know, who are we now that we're not the bright young things rising up the careers, we're not the people who are, you know, the hands-on parents raising children, living at home, etc. And what do we want to do with this last period? How do we want to leave a legacy? It's another point at which that silence can creep in. And it's really caused by that not knowing, you know, I'm not sure where I want to go. I'm not sure what direction we should creep in. And it's really caused by that not knowing, you know, I'm not sure where I want to go. I'm not sure what direction we should go in. And therefore, I better not say anything until I figured it out. It would seem that one of the big problems that would come up in couples who each have their own career, that work places demands on us in our own careers that change from time to time,

where, you know, dad's got to go off on a business trip, or mom's got to go to a seminar, or that things come up out of the norm because that's the nature of work, and that that throws monkey wrenches into even the most streamlined machine you could set up because now something's different. Absolutely. And there's no way to make yourself immune from challenges like that. And I think there are different kinds of workplaces. I think some workplaces are becoming more attuned to these issues and are a lot more sensitive around this. But at the end of the day, stuff is always going to happen, that emergency meeting, that emergency need to travel, etc.

And I think what's really important in a couple is to build that flexibility into the couple that, you know, you can plan for everything. And then, you know, as soon as you start life, all those plans go out of the window. The issue really comes when that becomes a persistent pattern. It's not a problem if once in a while something pops up and we just have to deal with it. That's life. It's when things keep popping up every few weeks, every month, that's when the troubles really start to arise. Well, it's interesting that what you're talking about are things faced by every dual career couple. And yet how many couples ever talk about these things or even think to talk about these things?

And yet the problems as you discuss them are inevitably going to come up. Jennifer Petrolieri has been my guest and the name of her book is Couples That Work. And you will find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Jennifer. Thanks, Mike. Nothing will ruin the holiday season like getting sick with a cold or the flu. According to the New York Times, though, a study found that gargling with salt water can actually help protect us. In the study, people who gargled with salt water three times a day got sick 40% less than those who didn't. Apparently, that's because salt water reduces inflammation in the throat

and flushes out allergens, bacteria, and other irritants. You just add a half a teaspoon of salt to warm water, stir to dissolve, and give it a gargle. And that is Something You Should Know. And that is the podcast today. I'm Mike Carruthers. Happy Thanksgiving, and thanks for listening to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community.

Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her

religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network.

At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance

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