Something You Should Know - Your Mysterious Immune System & Effective Feedback Secrets - SYSK Choice

Starting point is 00:00:00 The search for truth never ends. Introducing June's Journey, a hidden object mobile game with a captivating story. Connect with friends, explore the roaring 20s, and enjoy thrilling activities and challenges while supporting environmental causes. After seven years, the adventure continues with our immersive travels feature. Explore distant cultures and engage in exciting experiences. There's always something new to discover. Are you ready?

Starting point is 00:00:27 Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know. It's tough to get out of a traffic ticket, but there is one thing that just might work. Then your incredible immune system. It's why you're alive. However. I think it's important to understand that the immune system is not a trivial affair. For example, think of Ebola.

Starting point is 00:00:51 Ebola is a very serious, horrible disease. It still takes four to five days to kill you. And your immune system can kill you in like five minutes. Also, there's a good chance that you're measuring the medicine you take inaccurately and how to get someone to change by giving them effective feedback. So when people talk about what they don't want somebody to do, there's a much greater impact when we talk about what we do want them to do. I'd like you to stop being late.

Starting point is 00:01:18 If you flip that, we would say, I would like for you to be on time. From a neurological perspective, I want to talk about what I want rather than what I don't want. All this today on Something You Should Know. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals. Be careful along our tracks and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. Something you should know. Fascinating intel.

Starting point is 00:02:01 The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. Are you a good driver? Most people consider themselves to be better than average. I like to think of myself as a good driver. And one of the criteria I use in making that determination is I don't get tickets. I haven't gotten a ticket in a long time.

Starting point is 00:02:34 I don't get pulled over because I'm a fairly cautious driver. But if you do get pulled over by the police, you should really think before you say anything. When you understand who's in the power position, that being the police officer, you really only have one approach if you want to get out of getting that ticket, and that is to appeal to the officer's compassion. Frank Luntz, author of the book Words That Work, says, think about it. If you try to argue by saying you weren't going that fast or the radar gun is wrong, you'll always lose because you have no power in the conversation. But if you say, I'm sorry, you change the whole dynamic of the conversation. It may not always work. In fact, it often will not work.

Starting point is 00:03:24 But police officers have something called officer discretion, It may not always work. In fact, it often will not work. But police officers have something called officer discretion, meaning even though they pull you over for a violation, they are not required to give you a ticket. They have some discretion as to whether or not to give it. And appealing to their compassion is about the only way to get a break. And that is something you should know. Most likely you have a pretty good idea of what your immune system is and how it works to protect you. But you're about to hear it explained in such a fascinating way

Starting point is 00:04:00 that will teach you things you never knew about your immune system and give you a much better understanding of how it works. My guest is Philip Detmer. He is a science writer who has a YouTube channel with over 14 million subscribers and over a billion views. He has authored an incredible best-selling book called Immune, A Journey into the Mysterious System That Keeps You Alive. Hey, Philip, welcome. Thanks for coming on. Hi, thanks for having me. So, in a nutshell, explain very simply, what is the immune system?

Starting point is 00:04:37 Well, the immune system is like the second most complex biological system known to us after the human brain. It's like a super complex, multifaceted organ system that literally spans your whole body from like your toes to your nose. It has like hundreds of like little organs, little bases all over your body. It has like its own highway system. It has like two bigger organs that you probably don't know a lot about. One is above your heart, as big as a chicken wing. It has like trillions of cells. Every day you produce billions of new immune cells and billions die. It is you. It's like an integral part of your body. When people talk about their immune system, they talk about things like, you know, he has a

Starting point is 00:05:26 really strong immune system, he never gets sick, or, you know, somebody does take certain supplements and that that supposedly builds their immune system and makes it stronger. What's your take on all of that? There's many people who think they never get sick because they take cold showers or like they do this or that but like everybody gets sick so that's that's literally not a thing actually our immune systems differ a lot from person to person and that makes sense if you think about it so if all of our immune systems were exactly the same what could happen on a species level is that like a like a specific bug came along and just like killed all of us so our immune systems vary a little bit from person to person or maybe your immune system is a little bit better with dealing with viruses than mine

Starting point is 00:06:18 maybe my immune system is a little bit better in dealing with like certain bacteria but like through all these little differences um like on a species level we we can basically make sure that like no single thing can easily wipe all um all of us out but yeah so like you mean but like the immune system differs also a lot from our left lifestyle choices so like if you smoke for example you make your immune system weaker if you don't work out immune system it doesn't have as good of a time like if you smoke, for example, you make your immune system weaker. If you don't work out, your immune system doesn't have as good of a time or if you're undernourished. But those are like lifestyle choices. And so I understand that there are things that you do that could suppress

Starting point is 00:06:56 your immune system. But you also hear people talk about how, you know, if you take this supplement or if you eat this food, that you will improve your immune system. So is that possible? Or it's only there are things that make it worse, but there aren't things that make it better? The problem with the immune system and with immunology in general, like nowadays, is that people never learned how complex the immune system is and how it works, that gives gives many people

Starting point is 00:07:26 like the false impression like if you think about it like in the way people talk about it it's almost as if the immune system would be it's like a sort of energy field you know like a like an like a force that you can charge up and that can like wind down and like like if you put something in it like your energy immune system field gets stronger but that that's not how it works um the immune system is like a like a really complicated orchestra of like many many many billions and trillions of parts that work together specifically so the idea that you can like pop a pill or like or buy an orange juice that has like immune boost on it and then your immune system gets stronger, that's just not how it works.

Starting point is 00:08:10 People have the image that the immune system needs to be strong and powerful and run around and smash enemies in the head, crack their skulls open. But the immune system is actually a very dangerous system for ourselves. So like every time your immune system is active, it does a little bit of damage. It like stresses your body. So you want your immune system not to be as strong as possible. You want it to be as balanced as possible. And boosting it in a sense is like a counter to that idea. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah. Well, I've heard that, for example, sometimes when you're sick, the symptoms that you feel are not the sickness. The symptoms are the result of the immune system fighting the sickness.

Starting point is 00:08:57 It's your immune system that makes you feel the symptoms. So, for example, like if you have the flu and like your arms and legs ache and you feel really bad and tired and knocked out, that's actually your immune system doing its job. It uses up a lot of resources. And in fighting, it does a lot of like collateral damage because it has to. Like it can't be as selective. I mean, in the end, it's like it prefers to do a little bit too much damage instead of a little bit too, like too less. Well, see, that's really interesting because I think most people believe that the immune system is kind of this friendly gladiator that's by your side and fighting off all these terrible things to keep you healthy and safe and i guess to some degree it is but

Starting point is 00:09:46 but in order to keep you safe it has to be very tough and sometimes it can be very very powerful and even harmful i think it's it's important to understand that the immune system is like not a trivial affair for example like think of ebola like ebola like a very serious horrible disease it still takes like four to five days to kill you and your immune system can kill you in like five minutes like like if you have an allergic shock that's your immune system like misfiring very like very seriously so the immune system has like much more power to like hurt and kill you many parts of the immune system actually have like no other job than calming down the immune system itself and just like measuring like how like is the amount of fighting we are doing is the reaction is that

Starting point is 00:10:37 like just the right level is it too much is it too little and if it's too much can we calm down like your immune system has many built-in mechanisms that shut it off or like calm it down just to avoid that. If this is such a complicated system, you would think that there must be some kind of central command center somewhere that's keeping track of all that's going on. But from what you're saying, it doesn't sound like it. Yeah, no. Oh, my God. That's one of the parts that makes the immune system so fascinating and so cool.

Starting point is 00:11:14 The immune system is made up of cells. Cells are like little protein robots. They don't feel anything. They don't think. They don't have a motivation. They're like robots that work through the magic of biochemistry, which means they're really stupid. So like a single cell can't do anything. Somehow through evolution and through the wonders of biochemistry, cells have like found

Starting point is 00:11:38 a way to do really complex things, although like they individually are really dumb. And somehow through this way, our immune system usually finds exactly the right way and exactly the correct response to our threat. So help me understand, is the immune system strictly a fighter that goes after things and kills them? Or is the immune system also a healer? And my example would be, say, if I cut my finger, and in time, my finger heals and goes away, and the cut goes away as if it had never happened. Can I thank my immune system for healing that, or not? You can thank your immune system that you didn't die when you cut yourself like certainly a few bacteria some that are living on your skin or like some like from your kitchen counter wherever you cut yourself they will like invade the wound and your immune system basically reacts immediately to like kill

Starting point is 00:12:35 those invaders as quickly as as it can and if it couldn't do that like then like you develop an infection that would kill you sooner or later. But you cut yourself, you have immune soldiers that are living under the skin, that are just ready to defend you on a moment's notice. So you said a few moments ago that when you have the flu and you ache and you're all stuffy and your head hurts, that that isn't the flu, that's the immune system fighting the flu. But why does it do that? How does that fight the flu. That's the immune system fighting the flu. But why does it do that? How does that fight the flu? Think about it like what a virus really is.

Starting point is 00:13:10 You have like this little tiny parasite that infects your cells. It goes like into the cells themselves, multiplies, and like one virus becomes hundreds or even thousands. And then it kills the cell or like it leaves the cell again. And it infects, again, maybe dozens, maybe hundreds, maybe thousands. And then it kills the cell or like it leaves the cell again. It infects again, maybe dozens, maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of new cells. So like the growth of viruses is just like super rapidly and like your body is pretty screwed in a sense. So your immune system had to like come up with a way

Starting point is 00:13:39 to react to like to an enemy like that. And the virus infection infection like the flu is fairly serious, actually. So you somehow need to prevent those viruses that multiply so quickly to just take over your body in a few hours or days. Your immune system does, they release an enormous onslaught of chemicals

Starting point is 00:14:02 that flood your body. And actually, in the case of many virus infections you can like detect those chemicals like in the blood before you feel sick so like your body is like gearing up and and these chemicals do a lot of things so like for example they tell all of the civilian cells around like hey just like like viruses are around take care like like be be careful like like slow down your natural processes just like like be on watch or they um tell your brain like maybe like a fever would be a good idea like like heat up and create an environment that the virus doesn't like this is how cells do it they release like all of these chemicals so to like

Starting point is 00:14:44 tell a lot of cells like what they need to do right now how they should react how they should like like support the work of the immune system and that is like and you feel that it's discomfort like a lot of that's like not great to you which is also like like incidentally like a good side effect because it like forces you you the actual human, it forces you to calm down and seek rest and just like let the body do its work. I'm speaking with Philip Detmer. We're talking about the immune system and how amazing it is. Philip is author of a great book called Immune, a journey into the mysterious system that keeps you alive. life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. This winter, take a trip to

Starting point is 00:15:57 Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast-streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. So, Philip, here's a question. When I get the flu or when I get a virus, I get it, the immune system goes to work. And then if I'm exposed to that virus again, I probably am not going to get it.

Starting point is 00:16:38 How do we know? How does the body know? Well, you've had this before, and how does it protect me from getting it again? That's one of the most amazing things about the immune system. And it has like living memories. So in a nutshell, you have like two different defense mechanisms in your immune system. You have like two different immune systems. You have your innate immune system. Those are like your immune soldiers that like they're ready at any time there's an infection they just like like stream in and fight and this your second immune system is your adaptive immune system you can imagine that like as your super weapons it's like something a little bit

Starting point is 00:17:16 more like stronger but it has like a downside it needs to gear up and like get ready it takes about like like five to ten days to get ready and and when it gets ready it like activates a lot of super weapons like you've probably heard of antibodies like those are parts of that throughout the infection basically get intel from your innate immune system determine which kind of enemy is attacking you they are like creating exactly the right weapon for that enemy like antibodies when that's fully activated you get healthy again like it usually like like kills the invaders and like ends the infection to do that it creates a lot of additional like super weapon cells and when the disease is over basically when you good again, most of these cells kill themselves,

Starting point is 00:18:09 because they're no longer needed. But like some remain, and they remain in your body for like years, or maybe like if you're lucky for the rest of your life. And they just like the next time the exact same enemy infects you, they are just like already there. And they don't need those like five to 10 days to get ready. And that's usually enough to protect you against many diseases, hopefully for a lifetime. What about this idea that we live perhaps in a too clean environment, that kids need to roll around in the dirt, that we need more exposure to bacteria and things for our immune system to work properly?

Starting point is 00:18:43 What about that? Is that true? What you're referring to is the hygiene hypothesis. It's sort of correct. It's a little bit different. So like the science is still not completely in on all of that. But the idea is it's probably more like you're not confronted with the right kind of germs. When you are born, like as a kid, like your adaptive immune system is a little bit like a like a computer like the hardware is already there but like not all of the software is like ready in like the first years of your life your immune system is gathering data it's gathering like

Starting point is 00:19:18 software to like boot up properly which is like the reason why kids get like sick more often so it's like their adaptive immune system is like not fully like activated yet so when you're like not confronted with like a lot of the like quote-unquote good germs that you should be confronted with then it doesn't get to collect enough of the software information not enough data and what this can mean is that like then later in life like your immune system might overreact to like like bugs that it should be totally fine with like in these early days your immune system learns like oh all this bacteria again oh i i know them like oh like like like

Starting point is 00:19:58 yeah they are fine like this bug can live here or like i'll just like quietly kill it but like no big deal and if it if it doesn't have this information this can here or like, I just like quietly kill it, but like no big deal. And if it doesn't have this information, this can lead to like allergies later in life. So it's not so much actually that your immune system needs to like, it needs to fight and toughen up. And it's way more that it like needs to learn like who is harmless. And when it learns that, what are the kinds of things that, or when it doesn't learn that, what are the kind of things, the kind of reactions that people have? What typically are those? Yeah, for example, hay fever or like certain kinds of asthma or like certain food allergies.

Starting point is 00:20:36 It's like the list is endless. Just like the immune system basically needs to learn that certain stuff in our environment are just harmless and cool and like no big deal. And your immune system needs to learn which of those it can safely ignore. And if it doesn't learn that, then it will like react, like overly react to stuff that it shouldn't react to. What about stress in the immune system? Does stress suppress the immune system and make you more susceptible to illness? Yeah, for sure. Which makes sense. Like when we evolved way back, stress was like a sign usually of like a more immediate danger. You should be stressed if a lion is running at you.

Starting point is 00:21:17 That's like a perfect, perfectly reasonable moment to be stressed. But we are not really built for like persistent stress. So it like suppresses your immune system and in that sense makes you weaker, makes you more susceptible to disease. So yeah, stress is bad. When I think of the immune system, I've always thought of it as a system that it just works throughout the body, but that it wasn't a thing or a place and there wasn't an immune system organ. But you say there is. One thing I find endlessly fascinating is one of the two big immune system organs, like the thymus. Most people have never heard of that ever.

Starting point is 00:22:00 And it's pretty incredible because it's like it's a little organ. It's about the size of a chicken wing and it sits right above your heart. And this little organ, I call it like the murder university. It's a training center for like some of your most strong, like some of your most aggressive and strong and like protective immune cells that you have. These immune cells, like they're called T-cells. These cells are like they are born in your bone marrow and they travel to this organ above your heart. And then they get checked. They get

Starting point is 00:22:30 checked. It's like, Hey, are they working properly? And especially like those cells, could they maybe accidentally attack your body? And if they do, and if they don't pass the test just right, they are ordered to kill themselves so out of 100 cells that like enter the thymus 98 are killed or like die and only like two out of 100 get to graduate and get to travel through your body and get to protect you and like this organ like the thymus basically around the time like at the, when we enter puberty, it begins shrinking. The older we get, the more it shrinks and the thymus cells basically turn into fat cells. And this is like one of the reasons why we are like more susceptible to disease as we get older. Because like this organ, like this immune system university, it's closing department.

Starting point is 00:23:21 It gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And in your 80s, it's basically gone. It's like, I think you have like 1% left. And I find it so fascinating that we have this organ that really has a lot to do with how healthy we are and how good we can defend ourselves that shrivels away. And nobody has ever heard of it. I find it so cool. Like, yeah, I find this very interesting.

Starting point is 00:23:46 And so say the word, because your accent, I'm not quite following, what's it called? Thymus. T-H-Y-M-U-S. Talk for a bit about how the immune system fights cancer and how sometimes it wins and sometimes cancer wins. Cancer can trick the immune system in ignoring it or even in protecting it. That's more like how I put it.

Starting point is 00:24:15 Like one of the things like cancer needs to accomplish to become like a cancer that's like a problem for you is to like at first it needs to avoid the detection of the immune system because like at any point in your life you have like many many cells inside your body that are like patrolling and are like checking for cancer like one has a pretty amazing name it's like the natural killer cell and the natural killer cell what it does is basically it goes from cell to cell and just like say like says hi how are you doing like do you have like papers for me and it just like checks like like the papers of each cell and if it doesn't like what it sees it just like kills the cell so just like it you have these cells really looking for cancer cells and they succeed basically most of the time. So immune system is pretty great at killing cancer.

Starting point is 00:25:06 Cancer cells, if they want to be successful, they need to avoid detection. And that's what cancer does. It needs to trick your immune system to think everything is fine. This is what cancer does. At first it avoids detection. Then it builds up a city where no city should be built, and then it convinces parts of your body that everything is fine.

Starting point is 00:25:32 So it's pretty ingenious in a way. So like cancer, when it works, it does a very good job in a sense, which is bad for us. But if cancer is so ingenious, why does it continue to grow and kill its host, which ultimately kills itself? That doesn't seem ingenious. Cells are not conscious. They don't have thoughts.

Starting point is 00:25:57 They don't have dreams. They don't have hopes. They don't have goals. And it's the same with cancer cells. They don't know. And maybe I can say that as a cancer survivor. It's like cancer cells are not evil. They're just stupid. They do what like every living thing is like sort of like made to do. They want to survive and thrive. And they're

Starting point is 00:26:17 just not realizing what they're doing. It will eventually lead to their own demise. Well, I've learned things today about the immune system I never knew, and I've always thought of it as being kind of mysterious, like it's kind of hard to put your finger on, but you've really helped to explain it and clarify exactly what the immune system does and how it operates. Philip Detmer has been my guest. The name of his book is Immune,

Starting point is 00:26:43 A Journey into the Myster system that keeps you alive. He's also got a YouTube channel all about science. It's really interesting. And there are links to the book and to the YouTube channel in the show notes. Thanks, Philip. Thank you for having me. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Starting point is 00:27:12 Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill

Starting point is 00:27:37 about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Starting point is 00:28:08 or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've

Starting point is 00:28:23 started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson,

Starting point is 00:28:50 discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever had someone say to you, I'd like to give you some feedback?

Starting point is 00:29:21 And you get that feeling in the pit of your stomach, Oh God, here it comes. Criticism. What did I do wrong now? You know what I mean. Often feedback doesn't feel good at all. But feedback, if done right, can be helpful, constructive, and instructive. It's that if done right part that's often missing. Here to discuss the important topic of feedback is Leanne Renninger. Leanne is an expert in behavior change. She has a really interesting TED Talk on feedback. She's co-founder of LifeLabs Learning and co-author of the book, The Leader Lab. Hi, Leanne. Welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. So generally, I think people don't like feedback because it's usually just another word for criticism.

Starting point is 00:30:10 You know, people don't often tell me they want to give me feedback and then just tell me how wonderful I am. And so I think people put their guard up when they know feedback is coming and they're not really receptive to it. What's your take? Yeah, I think if it's not done well, then it's of course can do more damage than good. But I'd say done well, it's going to be one of the most important skills that a human can have. And so what does it mean to do it well? There's four parts to a good feedback message that we found from our research. And what it will contain, if I say it as simply as I can, is it's going to open with the person knowing you're giving feedback.

Starting point is 00:30:53 So we call that a micro yes. So I would say like, oh, wait, can I share an observation I have? Or can I share a thought I have? Or can I share my reaction to what I just saw or heard or what just happened? So that'd be part one, if you picture like four building blocks. Then we're going to move to part two, which is naming the behavior that one saw.

Starting point is 00:31:13 And that means not saying anything about the character of the person, but rather sticking with behavior rather than individual. So I noticed you showed up late to the past two team meetings would be an example. And then the third block of the four is your impact statement. And that will be sharing why it matters. Because if we can't name the impact, then why are we even bothering to give that feedback? That would be an opener, like I'm mentioning it because, or I'm bringing it up because, right? And then the last of the four building blocks is opening again with a question. So we round that back off with saying, how do you

Starting point is 00:31:45 see it? Or does it make sense that I'm wondering about this? So those are the four building blocks. And I can give more examples later, but they're the foundations. And so how does that inspire change? What we've got going on here is two things. One is that I'm respecting the other person's capacity at that moment to take in the feedback by saying, you know, would it be okay if I shared with you some thoughts? And I'm queuing up that this is a dialogue. It's not just me data dumping what I want to say here. So I'm tending to the relational side of things at the same time by naming the

Starting point is 00:32:20 exact behavior I saw and the impact on me. What I'm doing is I'm enabling change to happen faster because I know exactly what it is that the request is to be changed and why it will matter. So I'm dealing with the facts and also the motivation behind making those changes happen. As difficult as it sometimes is to have to listen to somebody's feedback, it can also be difficult to give it. It's kind of a weird position to be in. What are some of the things that people do wrong

Starting point is 00:32:51 when they're giving feedback? One is that as soon as we start feeling nervous as a feedback giver, the tendency is to talk faster rather than slower. And that's not the right thing to do because what it does is it's going to be increasing the other person's biological response as well. And what we want is to get into a space where both people can have a dialogue with each other. So my answer here would be, first of all, what people tend to do is talk too fast rather than going slower. And the second thing they tend to do is pretty quickly generalize. And that means that they'll move away from talking about behavior and move into character assessments. As an example here, what they'll do is they'll say, oh, you know, you're not being reliable.

Starting point is 00:33:45 And what would be better there is to say the way you just behaved is not consistent with what you said you would do. And the difference there is the moment I say, you're not being reliable, that's in my character, that's like who I am for good, compared to a behavior lapse that I can easily change. When I think back on times I've received feedback from people, it's not like they're telling me something I don't know, that I was unaware of. Oh, really? I did that? Oh, I had no idea. It's often things I'm very well aware of. And I suspect that one of the reasons for giving feedback about something isn't so much to alert someone what they've done wrong, because they may already know it, it's to tell them you noticed and it had an impact. Yeah. You just said the key word there. You said it had an impact. And I think that's

Starting point is 00:34:30 going to be the most important part of any type of feedback statement. We call that the impact statement. So being able to say like, well, listen, here's why this thing matters. Because often what's happening is the person is doing the thing and they're like, nah, you know, it's, I want to keep doing it that way. They're not realizing the impact it has on the other person. So the, the, the more skillful we can get with naming the impact statement, what I mean by that is I'm mentioning it because, or, you know, doing this does the following for me. The moment we could do that, we can see a very much an increase in the motivation from the other person to

Starting point is 00:35:02 want to make the change. Particularly if I'm able to articulate that impact statement in a way that really hits the logic button and is clear for the other person. One of the things that I never liked when I was an employee is when you would have those regularly scheduled meetings with your boss to go over your work. And the problem with those kinds of meetings is the boss isn't going to come to those meetings time after time and tell you everything's great. They've got to find something to complain about, even though maybe things are okay.

Starting point is 00:35:39 But it's kind of like forced criticism. If we're having the meeting, we've got to find something to correct. And sometimes maybe there isn't anything to correct. I think that's one of the hardest parts is the feeling like we want to, we want to as a feedback giver contribute and we want to be able to say something that's, that makes us sound smart as the feedback giver. And in the end, my ultimate goal is to be able to enable positive behavior change rather than just to sound smart as the feedback giver. And in the end, my ultimate goal is to be able to enable positive behavior change rather than just to sound smart as the feedback giver. And I remember there's the story

Starting point is 00:36:10 once I heard, I think it's, I can't remember which football team, I think it's the Dallas Cowboys, but I don't know much about football, where they were seeing a change very quickly in the players. And it was because one of the coaches had shifted from, instead of reviewing what the team member had done wrong, they actually put together a highlight reels. And so this power of positive praise. So like, let's look to see what you did right, particularly you did right. Let's put words on it, what you did right. And then let's break that down and see how we can transfer that to other situations in the future. That can have much stronger impact in that our brain is going to be able to remember those things that we've done well and latch onto them and reuse them much better than

Starting point is 00:36:51 the feeling of negativity that comes from, oh, I keep getting everything wrong in this case. What about when you give feedback? And I've had people give me feedback that there wasn't really much of a point to it. It was just criticism for the sake of criticism. It had no real impact. It was more like, I just want you to know that I know that you did something wrong. Okay. Or it could even be praise. I mean, just praising for the sake of praise, which, you know, I guess that can feel nice.

Starting point is 00:37:23 But is that good feedback just to point stuff out? I'll share a story here regarding that. When I was doing my doctorate research, I arrived on the scene. I did this in Austria, and it was kind of difficult for many reasons, one of which was it was in a different language, and two was I was new and I was coming into this lab of people who had been there for a long time. And one of the first assignments I was given was, I was told, go fix Bernward. That's the name of a person. And the first thing I thought was, oh my gosh, like I don't even know what, how to answer to this request, go fix Bernward. And so the person who gave me this assignment said, well, just go talk with them and you'll see what needs fixing. So I meet Bernward and pretty

Starting point is 00:38:10 quickly I do see what the person is probably referring to. And I think to myself, okay, if the idea is fixing, I don't like that word, but if the idea is to give feedback, because maybe I can be helpful with that feedback, Then let me think how to do this well. And what I was trying to do was to translate what my brain was saying. My brain was saying, wow, this person, Bernward, sounds grumpy, all the time sounds grumpy. Now that's not going to be helpful for me to go up to Bernward and say, hey, can I give you some feedback? Just notice that you always sound grumpy. That's not going to help him because he won't know how to not sound grumpy. If he did know how to not sound grumpy, he probably would do it more often. And so to get to the point around how do we help people, I think what's really important here is that we're able to

Starting point is 00:38:53 find a way to articulate what it is exactly behaviorally that we're seeing or noticing. And so in this case, what I was noticing is that he would land each sentence with a downward beat. So, for example, I would say, hey, how's your day going? And he'd say, good. How about your day? And so that intonation, that landing of that just came across to me as, oh, he's mad at me. And so my attempt with giving him feedback was to say, hey, I've noticed that when you, and I did a little bit of warm up there to say, can I share something? It's a little awkward for me to share it, but

Starting point is 00:39:28 I'm just hoping maybe it's helpful. And he said, yes. And then I said, I noticed that you land each sentence. And for me, when I hear it, it sounds like you're angry. And then I explained a little bit more what happens then. Then I started to think I don't want, you know, I don't tell my full ideas and so on. To that, he said, well, I'm not, I'm not angry. And there I said, oh, there again, you did the downward V. And again, I just want to share the impact it has on me. So this is the story can go on a little bit longer as to how we resolved it. But what I wanted to share here is he had never been told what it was that was coming across as grumpy. And whether or not I was right or wrong with my

Starting point is 00:40:05 assessment of what caused that perception, it definitely was something he could at least work with. And so my answer would be, yeah, we need to name it specifically the thing that's bothering us in behavioral terms if we truly want to make impact. How did you resolve it? How did you get him to, or did you get him to change? And how did you get him to change? Yeah, well, this is a sweet part of the story. He's, by the way, giving me permission to share this story. It started off with some very sweet attempts where, as he would talk with me in particular, he would lift the ends of his words. So he'd be like, so how's your day going today, Leanne? And it was an exaggerated attempt.

Starting point is 00:40:45 Now, suddenly we had an injection of humor into the situation. But what I did notice is that over time with his other colleagues too, people could see that he was making more of an attempt. Now, he doesn't have to follow everything other people would want. But what I was hoping for in my care for him over time, like truly, I started really hoping that he could improve his relationships, is that there'd be at least an understanding from his side, oh, the person might be thinking that I'm mad at them. I don't want that. And so the resolving of this situation was for him to actually say more often, oh, I like what you're saying. And so he

Starting point is 00:41:22 does intonation, I like what you're saying. I'm just wanting to think more about it, right? So he could add more intention statements and articulate more what he was thinking rather than letting people interpret it through his downward intonations. That brings up another point about feedback is that sometimes I can think of many times where it's sometimes easy to dismiss it because it's just one person's opinion. You might think he goes down on his sentences and that makes him sound grumpy, but no one else has ever said anything to me about it. So maybe I'll just dismiss this. Yeah, I think that's a fair point, right? So if the person wants to try to understand a data set, that's totally fair and they should do so. What I want to do is build a foundation for them to at least be able to say in this data point of one, I'm noticing this. And if I'm going to

Starting point is 00:42:10 maintain a relationship with, in this case, me or whoever it might be, I want to try to improve that relationship. There's one thing I want to add though, and that is the danger in invoking what we call the royal we. So we have noticed that you, or I've heard from other people that you, or I continually hear that you. That type of feedback is not going to land because it's going to immediately pull up the defensiveness as social creatures. We really, of course, don't like the idea that other people might be talking about us. And so my suggestion would be to not triangulate. Triangulate means that I'm going to say what somebody else said about the other person. So instead of just a one-to-one relationship, I'm pulling in other people.

Starting point is 00:42:51 And instead, try to just name my own observations. And if the person doesn't change based on that, that's okay. I can just keep naming the impact on me over time. Right. Because it's very common, and I think for people to use the royal we, and you know, it's not just me that's noticed, you know, other people have noticed this too, because you think that that's kind of bringing consensus to the table here, but what you're saying is it really just creates defensiveness. Yeah, there's a technical term for this called

Starting point is 00:43:22 the quantum Zeno effect. Sounds very fancy. But the idea here is I don't want to actually hinder the possibility of change within the other person. What I want to do is I want to enhance the possibility. I want to catalyze their urge to change. And so often we think, oh, when we invoke the royal we, that's going to add more fodder to the fire. Are there other things besides feedback that work to get people to change their behavior? Well, I like this question. Yeah. So what comes to my mind is that I want to create an environment that makes it more possible for that person to enable change to happen. So on the one front, what I want to do is I want to be able to ask

Starting point is 00:44:05 questions that will inspire insight for the other person. And what I mean by that is I could tell somebody what to do. And we call that stepping into telling mode, right? Or I have a choice. I could step into what we call questions mode. So Q-step, step into questions mode. And with the questions mode, what's happening is I move a lot more molecules in their brain because instead of saying like, I think you should do X, Y, Z, if I say to them, well, what do you see as your options? What do you think would happen if you do it this way versus if you do it that way? And the more molecule change I can have happen in their brain, the more likely we lay down a neural network that will enable that change to stick for the future.

Starting point is 00:44:46 And so I'm thinking constantly about, you know, as a behavioral scientist, I'm thinking about how can I basically help neurons grow faster within their brain? And the best way I can do that is to help them come to the insights themselves. Rather than tell them. Yeah. And I want to do that with an authenticity there. I'm not trying to manipulate people here. If in the end, I might be wrong about what I'm thinking is the best solution. But through that dialogue of me saying, okay, wait, what questions should you be asking yourself? Number one, number two, I want to ask them, what do you see as your options? Number three, I might ask you what does success look like for you in this situation? And then I want to maybe

Starting point is 00:45:22 move them into action and say, well, what do you see as the next steps? And then from there, I can be like, okay, and how can I be helpful to you? What do you see as the obstacle? There's so many different great questions we could be asking to help move their brain in a different direction. And I don't care where their brain lands. I just want movement. That's the first step to great change. Well, it does seem that if you really want to give feedback so that people change, you've got to be really careful how you say what you're going to say. Otherwise, people are just going to shut down, clam up, and nothing will happen. In fact, you could make things worse. I think there's something really important in the ways of wording things that people often neglect. And one of the things that I was really surprised by when we were doing this research on feedback is we call this positive

Starting point is 00:46:11 reaches. So when people talk about what they don't want somebody to do compared to talking about what they do want somebody to do, there's a much greater impact when we talk about what we do want them to do. So if I name something like, hey, I'd like you to stop being late. If you flip that to the positive reach, reach for something rather than away, we would say, I would like for you to be on time. And if you look at that from a neurological perspective, if I keep emphasizing the word late or don't eat the cookies, stop being so distracting, I'm taking and I'm using the words over and over again that I don't eat the cookies. Stop being so distracting. I'm taking it, I'm using

Starting point is 00:46:45 the words over and over again that I don't want them to do compared to if I flip it and say what I want them to do. So be on time, be proactive, whatever it might be. I want to talk about what I want rather than what I don't want. You know, I've always wondered, like you tell me if that's real research. I remember hearing someone say, like, when you, when someone goes to the store and you say, don't forget to get the milk or don't forget to get the bread, it's better to say, remember to get the bread. And that sounds right, but is there real research to support that? Yeah. I mean, even if you just look from an intuitive perspective, right, you're saying it sounds right. Just simply think about what were the tracks were laying down on the brain from a neural circuitry perspective.

Starting point is 00:47:28 The thing that we repeat is the thing that's going to be remembered. And so if you look at the research around this, it's, if I say don't eat the cookies, all I'm repeating over and over again is cookies, cookies, cookies. And instead of saying eat fruit instead, eat fruit instead, fruit, fruit, fruit. So even on just a simple gut check level, we can say that makes sense. And it also lines up also with what research says as well. What about asking for feedback? Is that a good way of getting it? Is that just go out and ask people, you know, how did I do? Rather than wait for them to decide whether or not to tell you what they think.

Starting point is 00:48:11 So another tip I would have in general for everyone is a notion of push versus pull regarding feedback. And often what happens is after we've done something, we're waiting for people to give us feedback and we call that push feedback. So someone's going to push their feedback onto us. And the suggestion I would have is to always be a puller of feedback. So someone's going to push their feedback onto us. And the suggestion I would have is to always be a puller of feedback. What I mean by that is you proactively go to people and say, hey, how did I do there? I really want to learn. Can you name something you think I did well and something you think that I could optimize? What ends up happening there is that by being the puller of the feedback, you become the controller of it. So even if a person says something negative or even let's say you know you did something wrong. If I come up and say like, hey, what'd you think? Suddenly I'm in a position of power because I'm coming in with a learning orientation

Starting point is 00:48:53 rather than a punitive orientation. Like, oh, I know I did that wrong. And so to be the puller of feedback means having that habit. And my suggestion to listeners would be even right now, after you're done listening to what I'm saying, grab your phone. And if you have the bravery to do this, text three different people and simply say to them, hey, I'm looking to learn. And what I'd like for you to do is to share three words that come to your mind when you think about me. And I'd like for them to be three things you think that are positive about me. And then one thing you think I could optimize. And it's really interesting when you start seeing these words coming in from your friends, because over time you start to see patterns in what's happening. And weirdly, because you were

Starting point is 00:49:40 the one who asked for the feedback, you pulled the feedback, you're in control. And it feels almost like, oh, I'm an experimenter trying to learn. And whether or not I agree with them doesn't matter because what I'm seeing is just data points. And with that, I can decide what I want to do with that, with the data I've collected. Well, I think this is such an important topic to discuss because everybody at some point has to give feedback and is going to get feedback and understanding the dynamics of it, how it works and what's effective, I think

Starting point is 00:50:10 makes it a much more worthwhile exercise that has some real impact. I've been speaking with Leanne Renninger. She is an expert in behavior change, co-founder of Life Labs Learning, author of the book, The Leader Lab, and she has a really interesting TED Talk you can see online about much of what we've been talking about on the topic of feedback. There's a link to her book and to the TED Talk in the show notes. Thanks, Leanne. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. Obviously, when you take medicine, you want to make sure you take the right amount. And a study published in Pediatrics found that many parents mix up teaspoons and tablespoons

Starting point is 00:50:53 and regular kitchen spoons when administering liquid medicine to their children, and presumably to themselves. As a result, they often get the wrong dose. One big problem is using a tablespoon or teaspoon from your silverware drawer. Silverware makers are not required to make their spoons to any standard measurement, and they usually don't. You have to use a measuring spoon like you use for cooking or baking in order to get the right amount.

Starting point is 00:51:23 Giving too small of a dose, well, that can make the medicine less effective. Giving too large a dose can make it toxic. Confusion about units of measurement result in more than 10,000 annual calls to poison control centers, according to that study. And that is something you should know. One of the things that fuels any podcast success is ratings and reviews. So it would help us if you wouldn't mind taking a moment to go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or really wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review.

Starting point is 00:51:57 It would be greatly appreciated. And it's a great way to show your support. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced.

Starting point is 00:52:27 She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

Starting point is 00:52:44 But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go,

Starting point is 00:53:04 putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today.

Starting point is 00:53:47 Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Something You Should Know - Your Mysterious Immune System & Effective Feedback Secrets - SYSK Choice

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.