Somewhere in the Skies - Above the Fold and the Fringe: How UAPs Became Mainstream News

Episode Date: June 25, 2023

On episode 323 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we welcome back Mike Damante to discuss his new book, Above the Fold and the Fringe: How UAPs Became Mainstream News, which goes behind the scenes of the infamous 2017 New York Times article and examines the history of UAPs in news media. Damante also explores the significant impact these stories have had on the public. With interviews from the journalists behind some of the biggest UAP stories like the New York Times' Leslie Kean and Ralph Blumenthal, POLITICO's Bryan Bender, KLAS-TV's George Knapp, Popular Mechanics Tim McMillan, and others, Damante navigates how the news industry works and provides insight into some of the biggest UAP stories ever to be broken. Today, Damante breaks down the new world of UFO journalism, using as an example the latest bombshell article published by The Debrief, concerning an Intelligence official who claims the U.S. is in possession of "Non-Human" craft of "Unknown Origins." Buy the book here: https://a.co/d/5JG6emp Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Book your Cameo video with Ryan at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Official Store: CLICK HERE Buy Somewhere in the Skies coffee! Use promo code: SOMEWHERESKIES10 to get 10% off your order: https://bit.ly/3rmXuap Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Email Ryan directly at: [e-mail] Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2023 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. This is somewhere in the sky.

with Ryan Sprague. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here from somewhere in the skies. And welcome to a brand new episode. This interview could not have come at a better time. And you're going to know why in just a few moments. We have back on the show a returning guest, one of our fan favorites. And that is Mike Demonte, author, journalist, UFO researcher,

punk rock aficionado. So one of the coolest people I have the honor of knowing in the UFO field. And he just came out with a brand new book. And I want to get the full title right here. So forgive me, above the fold and the fringe, how UAPs became mainstream news. So of course, we're going to talk about the UFO crash retrieval elephant in the room. This bombshell article that came out at the debrief very recently. You know, this episode will come out a little after that.

But, yeah, it could not tie in more to everything we're going to be talking about tonight with our guests. So let's waste no more time. Let's bring him in back to somewhere in the skies. We have Mike DeMonte. Welcome back, brother. Thank you for having me. And like I said earlier, off the air. The only reason why I do this, you know, write UFO books is to be on your show and talk to you.

So it gives me an excuse to chat with my buddy Ryan. Absolutely. You know, I always tell people a lot of the UFO community, the UFOs are actually just the glue that hold all our friendships together. But we, you and I were chatting off air long before this. And before colleagues were friends. So this is going to be a fun discussion, man. You just came out with a brand new book at Beyond the Freight Publishing, the same publisher that publishes my books as well. And, you know, know, we always bounce ideas back and forth with one another when it comes to everything going on in the UFO field. You've come to me for quotes. I've come to you. And that culminated into your new book that just came out. So before we even kind of get into the book, the meat of it, and then obviously how it connects to this big bombshell story that just dropped recently, what prompted this new book? Now, a lot of us know your work, punk rock in UFOs, but this is kind of a swerve, if I were to use a WWE term in terms of what you're covering.

So, yeah, what prompted this new book? Yeah, so the last book, Punk Rock and UFO, Strangers and Fiction, which we've discussed before, I've been on your show and other shows about it. That was, you know, really more towards a normalized paranormal, right, through pop culture, mythology, current cases, you know, basically pulling from. you know, the science community, the military community, the entertainment community, the UFO community. But I thought I was done writing books about UFOs after that book. And I said, if I never write a book or a thing about UFOs again, I'll be happy with what I accomplished there. But the whole time, I've always, you know, being involved in this field and this community, I've noticed there's been a disconnect in terms of sometimes a reality and perception when it comes to UFO stories. and how they're played in the mainstream.

And that's something I've always discussed, kind of on podcasts and interviews. And I wrote about here and there on the blog, but I always felt like there needed to be a book about UAPs and journalism. And, you know, for those who are just listening, I went to school for journalism. I have a degree in it.

I worked at Eastern Chronicle for about seven years as a copy editor, web producer, feature, and sports writer. So I do have that kind of background, that news background, too. and I also taught journalism for a while. And now I kind of work, you know, corporate communications. But having that background, I thought a lot of people gravitated towards me because of that. So I always felt in the back of my head, especially a lot of stuff's happened in the past four or five years that, man, there needs to be a book on this.

So that's kind of how the book came about. And a lot of the contacts and connections I made through the years are some of these big players that are, you know, that we've interviewed before. we all know who helped break some of these big stories. So I think it was really important to kind of tell their story and kind of explain how we got to where we are today, where this subject is now mainstream. Right. Exactly. And, you know, in the UFO field, you know, for decades and decades now, it's a topic that has always been in The Fringe. You know, you even have this in your subtitle. And that comes, the fringe often comes with a lot of bad journey. Let's be completely honest.

It's either, you know, hearsay, no sources, sensationalism, or just straight up, you know, fabrication. So I guess my question for you would be in terms of coming from your journalistic background and writing this book, why do you think it was important to kind of start the book with a healthy chunk of how the media works, how journalism, works and kind of how that ties into this kind of new age of UFO journalism that we're seeing kind of pop up all around us in the past few years. Absolutely. So I think, you know, my year is being a teacher, a journalism teacher, you know, I think it was really important to instill at an early age, but at a young adult age, the importance of media literacy.

Because a lot of people are media literate, period, right? There's just so many assumptions and misinformation about how, certain things work. So I think it was really important to include a primer. And this is basically stuff I used to teach my kids. I just rewrote it kind of to more of an adult audience. So I incorporated that in the books. I think it was really important before you get into the the beef of the book, you know, in terms of like the UFO stuff that you have an understanding of the history first, right? And not only the history, but how decisions are made and go in, actually go in the newsroom, right, figure out the mentality of the editorial leaderships. I think it was

important to kind of start off with that just to give the the reader a primer so going in they may understand the book better if that makes sense yeah absolutely yeah i mean i learned so much you know i write articles but you know i never went to school for journalism so you know my sort of naive upbringing in the ufo field was that i was a ufo journalist and many pointed out you know dude do you actually like have a degree in it i'm like no no i don't um so i guess before we get to like UFOs and kind of the people you interviewed. Do you think the sort of definition of a journalist has changed, you know, in the past few decades maybe?

We see so many people with their own websites, their own blogs, creating these new outlets to publish quote unquote articles. And then you have things like the very conservative kind of news outlets and not conservative in terms of politics, but in terms of strict standards of journalism, New York Times, Washington Post. Or you have Bob's blog over here or Lisa's listing over here. Do we live in a new age of journalism where that's kind of accepted? Or what do you make of that? Absolutely. Yeah. I think it is, it's more accepted now for multiple reasons, right? Because I think one of the quotes that you get me in the book is that a lot of citizen journalists have

I've been doing the legwork in terms of this topic for years, right, before the, you know, the mainstream journalist kind of stepped in. So it is definitely a different, a different era. And that truly started kind of with, you know, the blogging, right? Which was once almost, it was much a blog was a four-letter word, right? And kind of in that sense. But as you've seen, you know, really a DIY type of aesthetic to kind of journalism. And you see, it's weird because, you know, you have like some websites that,

obviously have that credibility because of who they are, right? But then you see other websites and people on social media doing the legitimate work too, right? And obviously one has more credibility than the other because of the history or the name attached to it. But you are starting to see, though, you know, the citizens journalism getting more respect. And I think, you know, for years, I think people have unfairly, and I've been pulled in this conversation, too. And I kind of look back saying, you know what, that wasn't fair, you know, that some people were, I think unfairly, you know, targeted kind of, you know, with the whole journalist, not journalist tag. And, you know, you specifically, you know, looking back on it, you know, that obviously wasn't fair that some of these UFO Twitter people would kind of come after you and others for it. Because you were never out there on a mountain yelling, I'm a journalist, right?

So it's just kind of a funny thing because I feel like there's people who aren't traditional journalists who can still practice journalism, right? Now, does that mean that they're on the same level as Leslie Kane and Rap Blumenthal? No, but that means that they can still do some of the work that's equally, it could equally be as important, right? It may not have that major publication backing, but the work is there and the work is still being done. So, yeah, I think it's changed in that sense where, you know, like I mentioned earlier, that for years, citizen journalists were doing a lot of the work regarding this topic. So yeah, I think definitely the scope has changed.

I think social media changed that too. It's definitely a different playing field. But as you see, though, kind of, you know, with the articles are coming out lately, you know, there being 90% of them are coming from what? Major news sources. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. You know, for a while there, it was like citizen journalism was the only place to get your UFO news.

And now that mainstream media is getting involved. it's this interesting marriage between the two, where you're even seeing the mainstream outlets quoting the more fringe or citizen journalists out there. So yeah, I think you're right. I think the landscape has changed completely. And what better topic for that landscape to change than UFOs? I mean, they always do shake things up as your work points out that UFOs are punk rock. So I love that, man.

Well, hey, Rothblumenthal, Leslie Kane, Luis Alizondo, Tom DeLong, these are just a few of the big names that you've gotten quotes from in all of your books. I mean, you've got it, you've had access to people that, like, literally no other UFO researchers have been able to get access to and stuff like that. So my next question would be for you, especially in this new book as well, what, uh, what importance do you put on that when you have someone like a Ralph Blumenthal who's written for the New York Times for 45 years? And then on the flip side, you have a quote unquote rock star like Tom DeLong also being quoted in your books. What importance do you put on kind of these big name people and I guess these celebrities as well when it comes to your writing?

Absolutely. And I think, you know, in the book it mentions, official sources, right? And official sources are credible because of the title. Now, if what they say is incredible, well, then that's kind of on them, right? But as a journalist, you're supposed to trust them as an official source on that topic. So obviously getting these big names, Lou Al-Zondo in the book, William Shatner, Ralph Mumenthal, I mean, it's obviously important because you want to show balance, right? You don't want to just show one side of the story. In this case, I'm showing different sides to the spectrum of mainstream. And I say mainstream, I'm talking about, news media, but I'm also talking about

pop culture a little bit too, right? And kind of in science and academia. So I think it was important to really pull from all that, like I've done in my previous books too. With, you know, Ralph Blumenthal, I think it was a really important person because years ago, I reached out to him for my website, punk rocking UFOs, you know, thinking,

who knows if this guy's ever going to respond, you know, because there tends to be a, from my experience, working as a younger guy in journalism, when I used to work in the newsroom, the old guys, the older guys are just really bitter and like cranky and not very like helpful. So there's there's this like weird like unapproachable. You know, you kind of go in saying how do I approach this person? Are they even going to respond?

And Ralph was nothing but the best. To this day, I mean, I call him Uncle Ralph because he always comments on my daughter's like photos. I'm when I post him on Facebook. He's such a nice dude. And he's obviously, you know, one of the professionals that you have to quote, you have to interview for this stuff because him and, you know, Wesley and Hohian Cooper, you know, they're one of the reasons why we're at where we're at right now, you know, with their New York Times 2017 story. So obviously getting those credible voices was, uh, was vital. Lots of places can expose

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What about someone like Tom DeLong, you know, someone who has a lot of baggage in this field, but also, like you said, brought us to where we are today without Tom DeLong and his history with this topic. We never would have had to the stars. We never would have had the New York Times article. Like it all kind of culminated into this super weird like thing. Like you, you couldn't have predicted that someone you and I listened to growing up talking about jerking off and in farts would eventually become like one of the biggest advocates for UFO disclosure ever. And now we live in a brand new world of it. So yeah, what do you make of that whole dichotomy of someone like a Tom DeLong kind of being the one to set all of this into motion? Well, it's kind of cool because like, you know, punk rock is this thing where anyone can do it, right? Anyone can get up and, you know, sing, anyone can get up and, you know, start a band, right? And that kind of really started with the Ramones, in the way they started their music style or anyone can do it.

So that is really kind of full circle if you think about it, right? The punk rock mentality of all anyone can start a band, well, anyone can change the world. right because if you think about at the end of day he's just kind of one of us in terms of you know obviously he has the celebrity and resources but his interest started just like ours did you know so i think that was really cool to think that you know this is something he's talked about too about how you know one person can change the world right or at least try to do that so i think it's really cool to kind of see what he said come to fruition despite all the haters and yeah everyone was a little skeptical at first we definitely had our uh skepticism as well, as well as just the support of what he was doing. And that that's normal. You know, I think that's normal, especially if you're looking at it from an objective journalistic lens is to say, okay, this is cool, but dot, dot, that, let's see where it goes.

And look where we are. So, you know, through the years of me being obviously a fan and interviewing him, you know, back in the day with the Angels and Airwaves in Blank and having him, you know, getting interviewing him for Stranger Than Fiction. I basically just reused his quote in Stranger Than Fiction in the new book because it, it fit. I was like, oh, this fits perfectly. But yeah, I think it kind of goes to show you that, you know, one of us can do it too. Good point. Good point, man. Yeah, that is a great example.

Anyone can lift that baton and keep running. And now I think, you know, Tom is kind of, he's back to his entertainment part of all of this. But he's not going to leave the UFO research community. But now it's up to new people to continue that on. and we're seeing that. So many younger people got interested in the topic after he did all of this. So job done. I mean, success in my eyes. Well, I guess moving away from sort of DeLong, and I'm going to shoot my own horn for just a moment here. And I bring it up only as an example.

My book, my 2020 release of my book is now being taught in two different college courses at different universities, which, dude, first of all, I, again, something I never saw coming. The professors have their own reasons for teaching the book, and I highly appreciate and respect that, and I feel very humbled. The reason I bring this up, academia, that is another thing you touch on in the new book as well, how important it is that academia is getting involved in this topic. But not only that, you know, we had, you know, this NASA panel that, that happened just a few days ago here as we're recording this,

where a government-funded program, NASA, who should be looking at UFOs, is finally getting involved and looking at this topic. However, that comes with a lot of restrictions. That comes with a lot of government bureaucracy. But there's also the private sector, people getting involved as well. So kind of a two-prong question for you, I guess. What importance does academia play into all of this moving forward?

And what importance does the private sector as well have in all of this? It's super rad that your books got picked up to be taught in college. I remember when you posted about that, and I just thought how appropriate it was, because I can feel like a college student could easily go in your book and dissect and make connections to, you know, larger topics. And it's definitely suited, I think, for that audience. So that's super cool. I remember when I first went to Jeffrey Pryple's class at Rice, he had me as a guest speaker. He added one of my books as like a suggested reading, not like to be taught in the class, but just like, hey, kids, read this if you want.

So I thought that was really cool too. But the fact that academia, and I'll go back to Rice and universities is very prestigious college in Houston, Texas, which now hosts the largest paranormal archives in the world, really. And this was kind of talked about in the book, too. I've covered the event before their inaugural event. And I've actually went and I've seen the archives. And it's really, if anyone's ever in Houston, I mean, make the trip. It's free to the public. You just go to the library and ask to see them.

And you can literally see CIA documents, photographs, experiments. And I think a lot of people don't know about this, you know, and it's like really cool. But, yeah, the fact that academia is just so involved, too, you see what, you know, Harvard with Avi Loeb, I think that's definitely a huge shift. And going to the first conference that Rice had, I mean, I got to interview Jacques Valet there. Like, that was crazy to me that I was able to interview him specifically about academia and the shift, right? And that's something, of course, I had to put in the book because they do go hand in hand, right?

Mainstream, you know, what you see in the mainstream media also is sometimes it's a trickle effect, right? You'll see it in entertainment. you'll see it in academia. So that kind of all ties together. So that answers the academia part. But what about like the private sector, this other thing you kind of cover in the book in terms of, you know,

we've got all these like independent organizations now studying UFOs, UAPX, we've got Sky 360. We've got, like you mentioned, the Galileo project as well. What role do they play in, I guess, the new, the new uphology, as it were? I think it's, I think it play a big role because there's money behind it. Like, there's like legit funding.

It's not just, you know, some flash in the pan thing that's in a year may not be there. I think these companies are here to stay. And I think that's the key takeaway. So this isn't something that's going to fall apart in the year, right? That's most likely going to be around for a while. And, you know, full disclosure, I, you know, I write about an NIMA labs in the book as well as a phenomenon, which is a similar app that's kind of still in development. I haven't heard from Joe Sherman in months, but who knows?

But yeah, full disclosure, I did work for Enigma Labs on the side for a while. I did some of their building their database and writing articles for them. So that's full disclosure. But I know from working with them that like this is legit. They have, this isn't just, you know, an app that's going to die off. But if you look at who is marketed to specifically and who their audience is, This isn't going away, right? This is for government and military and the science community.

So you see that these companies have the funding. They have the audience, right? And they have the bandwidth to do all these things. Like, these companies are here. They're here to stay. Yeah, absolutely. I looked forward to the future of Enigma Labs. Honestly, I know a lot of people have, like, weird feelings about them being, having ties with the government.

They don't really know who's in charge. I get it. Like, every company starts with Mystique. sure we'll get to know Enigma Labs better as everything starts to roll out. It was so funny, man. I was walking in in Chelsea, in New York City, just, you know, not living there anymore. I was a tourist, so I'm just mosing down the street, taking in all the sites. And on a trash can, I see an Enigma Labs sticker. And I flipped out. Like, I wasn't looking for it. I didn't know it was there. I just happened to see it. And it literally says,

seeing a UFO, you know, take a picture of this code and we'll upload it into our algorithms and try to, you know, do our due diligence and figure out what it is. So that's crazy. Like anyone on the street who sees a UFO can just go to an app now or eventually and it will go somewhere where all of that information can start to culminate into possible explanations for this stuff. So talk about like, again, starting from scratch, not using. NASA, not using the Pentagon run A-tip or anything like that. This is true boots on the ground starting from scratch UFO investigation, which I think is really cool. Yeah, and it's, in fact, they saw it in New York.

They have offices in New York, right? So if you have a company that has an office in New York, you know they're in there for the one hole. They're legit. Yeah, for sure, man. Those, those work spaces ain't cheap. I can tell you that much. Well, okay, so we talked a little about some of the people you spoke to for this book and your past books.

But is there like a favorite? Is there like a huge get that you're super proud of where you think them being in this book is going to legitimize it more than you ever thought possible? Anyone like that? Who's your biggest get if I'm going to say that as a journalist? So for this book, I mean, obviously, I've interviewed Ralph Blumenthal before, and I have a small quote from Wesley from something I've done a while ago. But I think it was Jacques Valet and Whitley Shriver just because of who they are. I mean, they're huge. And I was able to meet them and interview them at that conference at Rice a couple, about a year and a half ago.

And just the circumstances are just so not what I'm used to in terms of journalism. Just to kind of give you guys a funny story, you know, I'm used to just reaching out through the appropriate channels, setting up interviews. That's what you do, right? And I know Jeffrey Kriple for years, I consider him my friend. And he's just so not trying. He's like, yeah, Michael, just go up to them and interview them. Just go talk to it.

And I'm like, are you sure? Is that cool? I was like, yeah. And it was kind of that thing, which is such a weird. I mean, people are coming up to them all the time, asking him stories. So I'd be like, hi, look, I'm writing a story. Can I, you know, can I please do this? and they were cool with it.

And for me, I mean, you know, obviously, Jacques L.A. is the biggest name in the field of all time, in my opinion. So just to get his input, even if it was only for like three minutes on a very specific and targeted question, I think that was super important. And then Willie Stryber, I mean, he's the reason, when the reasons why I'm into this, you know, field in the first place.

You know, Communion was the first book that kind of got me back into being interested in the paranormal. So to kind of meet them, be able to interview them for the, for my website, and then eventually go on and use it for the book. Yeah, I think those are probably the biggest gets. Awesome, man. Well, okay.

Well, like I mentioned in the beginning of this interview, Elephant in the Room, the debrief. They came out with what they are claiming to be just as important, if not more, in the 2017 New York Times article, written by the same authors, Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kane. This article that came out, I want to get this right, it was called Intelligence Officials Say US has retrieved craft of non-human origin. And I'm just going to run through a brief summary of it here, Mike, for any of our viewers

and listeners who didn't really read this yet. So on Monday, June 5th, the debrief published an explosive article by Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal. and it said that defense intelligence whistleblower David Charles Grush claims that the intelligence community is hiding classified evidence of quote intact and partially intact craft of non-human origin. In a later interview with News Nation, Grush even claimed that the government has evidence of alien life in crashed spacecraft from another planet.

He also claimed in a complaint to the insubilant, Spector General that the Pentagon, other nations, and defense contractors have recovered fragments of exotic origin, or as he says, non-human intelligence, based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures. So, I mean, this is it, man. This is what we've been hoping for for years, someone to finally come forward, a la someone like a Bob Lazar and say that

we have craft of unknown origin from somewhere else. We've recovered them. We're reverse engineering the technology. I mean, this mirrors Bob Lazar in many ways, but this actually seems more legit. Like this guy coming forward has like a 30 year career in the military

in intelligence. He testified before Congress all of this. He sent in a formal complaint to the inspector general, and he swore under oath that this is true. So, I mean, I don't know. What did you make of this when you first read this? As a journalist, what went through your mind as you started reading these words that we never thought would see the light of day? The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to every week.

But if you would like to help support the show, we have a very active Patreon page where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So, to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Yeah, so I think kind of at the end, you know, you kind of nailed it in terms of what he did to what you have to go through, right, to get this information out in the first place. That I think is very important that a lot of people skip over that fact.

You know, the news of it on its own, to us, it's not news. We've even hearing this stuff for years, right? You know, we've heard from intelligence officials who put out their own books, right, or told their story here and there. But the difference is here, this is being reported by two mainstream journalists on an outlet that's kind of an alternative, right? I mean, we've written for the debrief before. They've done some really good work, but this is by far the biggest story that they've ever done.

And look who's writing the article. You have Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kane doing it. And I think it's interesting because apparently, you know, other outlets passed on it. And apparently there was like a rush to get it out, which we don't know the exact reasoning for that yet. But there is a reason behind it, right? There has to be.

So I think that's interesting, too, really interesting. too that, you know, because that same night, after the story dropped, news, what was that show? News Nation. News Nation. Yeah, I'm sorry. News Nation ran with the story. So there are obviously other outlets in on it, too. So I think this says something that some outlets pass, but you have a mainstream outlet,

news nation that ran with it. And then you have two mainstream reporters who took this story and published it on a more of an alternative outlet, right? A serious outlet, right? but not something as big as the Washington Post and New York Times. So to kind of go back, you know, it's interesting enough to see, to kind of deep, to go in to say, I wonder why maybe that these outlets needed more time or passed on it or time was running out. But Ralph Blumenthal and Wesley Kane, I mean, they did their due diligence on their own when they interviewed Lou Alzando for 2017.

Before their editors even had the opportunity to vet him, they did it on their own, right? So if you trust them as journalists, right, you should understand that they obviously vetted this story. So they may not, in their eyes, needed the approval of, you know, from the editorial staff in New York Times or Washington Post. Right. It was good enough for them. It was good enough for the debrief to trust them as journalists to say, hey, you know what? They did their work, number one. And number two, we know they know how to do their work and their job.

They done before. We've seen it with Lou Elizando. You know, they met with him. I think it was like on Halloween. and they interviewed him and they vetted him, you know, very carefully. So again, it's trusting the journalists and the source on this. They obviously did their background work for a reason. And, you know, it could have just been a simple thing as, you know, New York, New York Times needed more time.

And they didn't have, for whatever reason, they didn't have more time. But I don't think that's a reason to think that the article is potentially less credible because of that. I don't foresee that because we trust Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal from what they've done in the past, correct? So it's almost like if someone, if other people wrote it, we wouldn't be in this seat right now. I don't think we wouldn't be talking about it. If one of us wrote it or, you know, Joe Mergie or Danny Silva wrote it. And that's not a knock to them at all, right? But obviously, if Ralph and Leslie write it, then it holds more of a prominence.

Yeah. Right. You know, and yes, there are a lot of questions. And obviously, you know, Ralph and Leslie have been very clear that there's a lot of unanswer questions with the story as well. They're not saying like, oh yeah, like this is 100% solid. We know for a fact these crash retrieval programs exist. This guy came to us and told us this. We were able to vet him, do a background check, speak to superiors, talk to other people. They all vouch for him. We've seen the IG complaint. We've seen the documents brought forward.

We've seen his sworn testimony to Congress. and stuff like that. However, all of that information is classified. So I think that's kind of the gap right now for a lot of the skeptics out there with this story coming out, is they're not getting the documents. They're not getting photos or videos of this crashed UFO fully intact or anything like that because any, I guess,

documentation of what this guy is bringing forward, is still classified. And Ralph and Leslie have been very clear about that. So I respect that. I also respect that, you know, on a recent interview, they also said, this guy says that there's bodies, that he was told there are bodies that have been recovered as well. And Leslie and Ralph said, we're not touching that.

That's not something we can verify. We're not going to speculate. We're not even going there. So I truly respect that they said that. It shows that they care about this story. They want to bring forward only the stuff they can verify. And that's kind of where we're at. I think the story is only really beginning.

Mainstream media is now going to pick this story up. We're seeing it happen right now. So yeah, it's developing. It's interesting. I think people need a lot more to kind of grasp and hold on to you before they truly buy into it. But what do you think, man? In terms of journalism,

do you think this was rolled out properly? Was it a good article, I guess, by what you would consider a good article? And do you think this is going to lead to anything? I mean, I hope it leads to more outlets picking up on it. It is a good article. It's very well written, not just by Wesley and Ralph, but by all the debris people who contributed to it.

You know, I mean, they're, they do their best being a quote unquote citizen journalist website, but it's not presented that way. It's presented in a very professional manner where where it's almost like, you know, reading popular mechanics, right? You know, which Tim McMillan, you know, wrote for or vice, which they used to write for too. So it's, you know, to me, the debrief is, you know, on that popular mechanics level in terms of, you know, credibility now because of this article. they did such a great job, you know, on their end of adding stuff to it and telling the bigger picture. Because sometimes in a big story like this, you tend to get, you tend to zero in on the angle, right? The beef of the story, the news content, too, the new part of it. So I think they did a really good job of painting like a broader picture too.

But yeah, I think the, I think I just hope more outlets pick up on it. I think I don't know why. I think if, obviously, if Washington Post and New York Times ran with it first, I think there'd be more credibility. Like, again, that's not a knock on the debrief at all. It's just, you know, these organizations have years and years of built up credibility, regardless of kind of like what they do now, like, the New York Times obviously isn't as good as what they used to be in terms of like some of the editorials and opinion writing they don't and some of the stories they cover. But they still have that the same journalistic editorial process when it comes to doing new stories. That makes sense.

So, yeah, I think the fact that this story is out now, I think it's huge, regardless of the outlet, you know, would it potentially be bigger with a bigger outlet? Yeah, sure. But I think this is how you get the ball rolling, right? The debrief runs it, right? News Nation runs it. And then other outlets pick up. And this is what we call a mainstream bias in journalism, I should talk about in the book, which is where other outlets see what the other outlets are doing. And they say, oh, we're going to report on this too.

And, you know, that's something, you know, I've talked to. Brian Bender, you know, who were going to work for Politico at the time for this book, he mentioned that, you know, really they don't get as much, you know, credit, but they were working on the, he was working on the 2017 story at the same time, too. But the New York Times came out first. So everyone kind of, you know, kind of goes to them as the, you know, the catalyst as well. Yeah. Well, that's something else I want to touch on with you as a journalist.

getting there first. We see that so much in the UFO field. We see it everywhere. Politics. Every mainstream media outlet does it as well. Or you see this copy and paste, this desperation to just get something out. You don't care to actually look into it yourself.

You're just going to do what, like literally, I have seen Fox News play a clip from CNN. And I'm just like, what kind of meta mainstream media world are we living in? But we see this in the alternative news world as well, where people are just my articles that I write on medium of all places have been ripped and put elsewhere. You know, it's just, it's lazy journalism. But unfortunately, that comes with, you know, the age of the internet sometimes. It's very unfortunate. I don't know why I'm, that's a little diatribe of mine.

What I meant to ask you, Mike, is getting there first. That seems to be a big thing, obviously, in today. Today's world of news is being the first to get something out. Do you think that can drastically affect the quality of this journalism? I mean, do you think this article could have been, and I don't mean this is any offense to the debrief or Leslie Kaine and Ralph Bumetha, could it have been better if they had waited and published with the Washington Post or the New York Times? Or do you think, you know, this wasn't a case of getting there first?

I don't know. What do you make of that? I think the impact, the initial impact could have been greater. I'm not sure if the content would have been vastly different. But the impact, yeah, for sure, off the bat would have been greater. And again, that's not a knock on the outlet at all. That's just kind of the reality. But we are in a new age.

It's interesting. When I first started working the Eason Chronicle, you know, I was kind of still in college. but so I was seeing the transition of from print to digital, right, how print was that dying medium and how it was more important to get there first and get it right. And then all these aggregations, I had to do so many aggregations stories, which are the worst because you're not doing real reporting. I'm taking what someone else wrote, writing about it, then linking it off. I have to do so many of those per day.

And it was just like, it was like soul-sucking. But in a sense where, you know, the digital age, you're just building content, content, content, right? So in a way, it sucks. that someone's like ripping off your stuff on the medium. But if they're linking it back to you still, then that gets your article more views and more clicks. And as long as they source it back to you.

So we're kind of in this new age where, you know, content is at a premium and they want it all the time. People, you know, lot content. These media companies walk content because that gets clicks, clicks, clicks make money. So we are in a new age in that sense. I don't know what went on behind the scenes, you know, kind of with a specific story.

I haven't really read the Q&A either that the debrief does, which I love that they do that, which is really cool. The New York Times used to do that too for their insider. They used to kind of give a little behind the scenes as well. So it's really cool that you could kind of see that. But yeah, obviously they wanted to get it out. Ralph and Leslie wanted to get it out now for a reason.

Whatever reason that is, I think we just trust them on it. Yeah. But yeah, we are in a different age where it's super important to kind of get content out there. And sometimes it is at the expense of course. sometimes. But I don't think this is the case because if you read the article, I mean, it's a beast. It's huge. Yeah. And that alone makes me trust that a lot of work, time, and effort went into it. So yeah, highly value the work the debrief does. I know you and I are a little biased because we have written for them in the past. But I do highly suggest people

listen to that Q&A that Tim McMillan and Micah Hankst did. It was very eye-opening. It does give us a little glimpse into why it was published with a debrief, why it was published when it was. I won't give that away. I think people should go listen to that. But yeah, yeah, there are reasons for that. It wasn't that the Washington Post or New York Times passed on the article. It was nothing like that. so anyone claiming that clearly has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The reasons are apt and they're just. I'll leave it at that. I do know for a fact why.

And think about it this way too, right? If you're an advocate for UAP stories and journalism growing, right, this elevates the debrief, does it not? Yeah. Yeah. So think about that for a minute. if people are kind of, you know, judging the source on it, well, but at the same time, you want to see kind of these more citizen journalists type of websites and outlets grow. You can't have it both ways.

This, you know, they've done the work necessary to get this article on their website in the first place. And this only elevates their website and their brand and their name. So you really have, for the UFO community, you have a win-win. Absolutely. You know, when you have the debrief showing up in a JJ Abrams. documentary on UFOs or, you know, on all these other mainstream outlets, you know, you're doing something right. So I do think citizen journalism is, it has its pros and cons, but I honestly

think it is the future. And sometimes that is for the better. So yeah, man, I've learned so much from your book. I'm still making my way through it. But I guess to kind of, to begin to kind of wrap things up. What else in the book is, you think, integral to the UFO conversation that we didn't really cover yet and kind of exemplifies what we saw play out in this deep brief article, too, I guess. So part of the book, too, I really want to include some, you know, obviously George Knapp and, you know, his work and what he's done and how he's really taking the lead on the Skinwalker Ranch stuff because George Knapp, I think, is, you know, George Knapp walked so Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie King can run, if that makes sense, you know.

So I kind of obviously wanted to, you know, focus on his work, you know, with Skinwalker Ranch and how that's almost a mainstream thing now, you know. It's on a history channel. It's on his third season, I think, the, the docu series. Fourth, yeah, I lost track. I stopped watching because I got rid of my table, but I need to start watching it again because apparently it's getting really good again. But yeah, obviously, George Knappin, I wanted to mention historically

how certain sightings and events were portrayed in media. and how they were covered, as well as how some of covering the stories that had an adverse effect in some journalist's career, too. So I really wanted to cover the full spectrum of journalism. And then also, obviously, mainstream media as a whole, you know, celebrities, you know, like William Shatner, his views on this, interviewing him, and then mentioning famous people who believe or her scene. And then I also wanted to have the reader experiment, too, because I included some of my own work in there. and to see how this would be viewed if it wasn't me doing it, but if it was coming from a different outlet.

So it really gives the reader an exercise and understanding the importance of having that outlet behind you, right, that publication, right? Like, you can be a journalist, right? Like me or you, but if you're, if I'm Mike Damante at the New York Times, right, that holds certain credibility because there's, you know, two instances in there where, you know, I give an example, a lot of times journalists are voices for the voiceless, right? We do the stories that people are afraid to tell. And you're a prime example of that.

You know, I say that when I reviewed your recent book, I'm like, Ryan Sprague is a lot of things, but ultimately he's a storyteller. Because that's what you do. You do this on the podcast, you this in your books, do this on your reporting. You tell these stories that some of these people would never be able to get out if it wasn't for you and your storytelling. So I wanted to kind of show that element, too. and I was just doing reporting on a small flap from a couple of sources. That's it. Two people that reached out to me and I actually reported on it.

Just to show that the importance of telling that story, right? And then another example I put in the book is a story that I reported on that I thought was pretty big. But punk rock and UFOs.com doesn't hold that weight to make that story as big as it should have been. If that makes sense. So I wanted the reader to read that and say, oh, whoa, there's something here. oh, why wasn't this big news? Oh, this is why. As good as the story was, and, you know, Mike DeMonte is not a big name at the end of the day. You know, despite my credentials and my, you know, my background, I don't have, my name doesn't carry the same way as Leslie King does.

And that's fine. That's, you know, that is such a good point, Mike, because not a lot of people know this either, but George Knapp had the entire A-Tip Ossep story long before the New York Times, long before Leslie Kane in Ralph Blumenthal, he had that story. And he was told by these authors and by the New York Times, hold off, please, let us release this. We're the New York Times. Like, ultimately, it's going to reach more people and get more legitimacy. And to George Knapp's credit, you know, whether you love or hate the work he and someone like Jeremy Corbell do, uh, NAP said, all right. I'll, I'll let you guys have it. I think it's better for the world overall to hear this story from the New York Times. And you do have to wonder had he not done that and just, you know, dropped it on mystery wire or, or, you know, the local news in Las Vegas, uh, where we would be now. So, um, we do have him to think for kind of being the journalist he is and step back and realize.

you know, like this is for the greater purpose. I think George Knapp at the end of the end of the end of the day, he's an old school guy in terms of like the way he was brought up in the field. And you see that out. He understands it, right? But he also says he's also willing to evolve. You know, obviously, you know, Skimwalker Ranch is definitely an evolution from Bob Lazar, right? It's definitely a big gap in there. And, you know, him, you know, doing a podcast now and, you know, pairing with Jeremy, it's definitely, it's a different audience he's reaching, right? because Jeremy's audience is different.

And he elevates Jeremy. You know, I've had an issue with Jeremy calling himself an investigative journalist, but it's like, well, he has George Knapp right there with him. So if Jeremy's going to do something wrong, George Knapp is right there. So, yeah, I think George is, it's almost like, I'll use like a wrestling in punk rock terminology, right? When you're like a big punk rock band, you take the younger bands on tour, right? You kind of get them, you know, popular. or if you're a wrestler, you put over that younger talent, right?

You do that thing to kind of, and that's what I think he's willing to do. He's willing to step back, have that article go to New York Times because he understood the importance of it. He's an old school guy. But he's also now willing to see that, hey, look, I can do more than just traditional reporting. I can do podcast, right? I can do more social media stuff. I can do blogging on mystery wire. So I think he's definitely been ahead of the curve, I think, for years.

Yeah, absolutely, man. And I'm so happy you brought up a wrestling reference. I'll make the analogy quick because I want to personify this for people. Stone Cold Steve Austin, probably the biggest wrestler in WWE history. A pivotal moment was when the Rock pinned Stone Cold Steve Austin in Stone Cold's last match ever. And The Rock won the championship that night and became probably one of the other biggest W.W.E. Stars in history. And you can actually see the rock after pinning him whisper to Stokel, Steve Austin. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. And that's what you said, putting someone over.

You know, Stone Cold realized his time was kind of done. He was on the way out, and he had to move the company forward with this new superstar. So I think you're right. I just had to bring that up because I was so happy you brought up a WWE reference. I do see that. I do see that. And now George Knapp is doing his own thing. Like he's moved on. He's not bitter that he didn't get the biggest story in UFO history. He's evolving. He's taking these detours, doing different things.

And, yeah, again, it's crazy to see the evolution of UFO journalism and see where people end up, you know, where they started and where they end up in all of this. but it's all sort of, I think, boiling, boiling to a fever pitch right now. So to kind of, I guess, end things, like, where do you think we are heading with all of this? Everyone knows it. Everyone feels it. Like we're on the cusp of something big.

This debrief article could exemplify that in so many words. Maybe it's another step. Where do you think we're headed with all of this, with the UFO topic, with the way it's. It's handled. What comes next for ephology, in your opinion? I think journalism in general has been evolving for years. And I saw it in the newsroom when I was a young guy, watching all these old guys

struggled to adapt. You know, they were only good at one thing, which was print. And myself and others are coming in who are able to write for print, write for web, take our own photos, edit, run chats, right? Social media was around them, but it wasn't really dictating, right? But still understand the importance of it. So I think, you know, we get more than just one thing or understanding more than just one thing of the full scope. And I think where we're going is, I mean, I think only up.

I definitely think there's going to be some barriers like we've seen in the past with euthology and these stories. And really, this goes back to something that blew my mind. So in the book, I have an interview with a former intelligence official who claims to had Intel on Rendlesham that wasn't really revealed until he told it to me. I vetted him. He's legit. And he said something that, in his opinion, true gradual change takes time for a reason because people aren't ready for it. And he's like, the same thing goes with UFOlogy. As, you know, he's a really good analogy like the civil rights movement, right?

That's something that should be rectified right away. But it took time because society was still so backwards, right? Nations falling and rising again. All these things are gradual. And it really hit me when he said that. I'm like, wow, that's kind of what we've seen with the subject, right? We've seen it kind of get built up, but then we've seen it kind of get knocked back down again and go up and down.

And there's always going to be that barrier of people. You know, we know, we know of these efforts to try to suppress some of the more jarring stuff about this topic. Try to suppress that. But I think in general, we're headed in a good direction. I love that. That's a really good analogy. Ah, man, I can't wait to finish your book. I can't wait. I can't wait. Well, Mike, obviously, the last question we have to ask, where can we find the book? Any last closing words you want to give on what the book means to you and what you kind of want to convey to people?

And, of course, where can we find everything you're up to? There's three questions to Barrage you with. Yeah, so the book can be found on Amazon and Barnes & Noble, beyond the Frey publishing, who's worked with myself and Ryan. They used to get great people to work with, as Ryan could attest to, in terms of working with a company that cares about, authors, and not only that, the subject, right? Because they do cover a lot of weird stuff.

So they're not afraid to, you know, touch some of the weird topics. But I think Ryan and I write a little bit more of a grounded level and a grounded topic. So I think our books are definitely fit that audience, but are also more mainstream accessible. And this book is kind of my gift in the sense to the UFO community in that sense, saying, here's a UFO book, but it's also about journalism. And there's definitely a story to be told into why these stories are now mainstream and also how the New York Times story came to be, basically told by the people who did it, you know, through me reporting on it. But also, you know, a better understanding once they put down that book of how these stories are being played out in the media.

So, yeah, so once again, you know, thank you, Ryan for having me. Punkrock UFOs.com is the website, which is my pop culture and paranormal site. So obviously I write about UFOs, but I write about cool stuff like movies and music and fun nerd stuff that, you know, we all like. Absolutely, man. It's what brought you and I together. Like I always say, UFOs are the glue that holds many of us colleagues and friends together. And the topic's not going anywhere. You and I aren't going anywhere.

The work has only just begun. So I got to thank you once again, man, for coming on somewhere in the skies. Thank you. Again, this is, you know, any opportunity to talk to a friend about this stuff is fun. Absolutely.