Somewhere in the Skies - American Madness and the Phantom Patriot

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

On episode 201 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by author, Tea Krulos, to discuss his latest book, American Madness: The Story of the Phantom Patriot and How Conspiracy Theories Hijacked American Consciousness. Q-Anon. Fake News. Bohemian Grove. False flag attacks. Deep state. Crisis actors. Whatever Gate. Is any conspiracy worth the life of a believer? Richard McCaslin was a loner who wandered through life aimlessly. His only two interested were comic books and conspiracy theories. This led to his alter-ego, a conspiracy-busting super-hero, The Phantom Patriot. After learning of the elite meetings taking place at the Bohemian Grove, and the far-out rumors of satanic rituals and human sacrifice, McCaslin snuck in and attempted to burn it to the ground. And this is only the beginning of McCaslin's descent down the rabbit-hole of conspiracy theories fueled by the rhetoric of conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones and David Icke. How does this incredible story play in to the greater concerns of the conspiracy world we live in today? Krulos walks us through the life of McCaslin and the cautionary tale of what happens when the power of belief becomes not only dangerous, but deadly. Order "American Madness" by CLICKING HERE Learn more about Tea Krulos at: www.teakrulos.com Audiobook now available! To order, CLICK HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here. And before we get to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that we will be discussing very controversial conspiracy theories and American politics in this week's interview. The views expressed in this interview are solely those of my guest and myself and not the E1 podcast network. So without further ado, enjoy our interview with T. Cruelous all about his new book, American Madness and the Phantom Patriot. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome, everyone, to Somewhere in the Skies. Symbolism and conspiracy theory is what we're going to be talking about tonight. So buckle up.

This is going to be an amazing conversation with first-time guest and author T. Krulis joining us. So, T, welcome for the very first time to Somewhere in the Skies, my man. Hey, Ryan, I'm so glad to be here. This is awesome. I really love your show. Thank you. Thank you.

And I should say the same for you. We'll talk all about your podcast and everything you got going on over at your website later. But today we're going to be talking about your newest book, American Madness, which, oh, man, what a journey. I don't remember the last time that I was so glued to a book that I forgot what time it was, which is so easy to do in this pandemic lockdown world we're living in. this book could not have come at a better time, not just to read, but what it covers. I mean, it's startling how everything in this book, which we will get to coincides with what's going on in the world right now.

So let's not really waste any time, man. The book is all about a dude named Richard McCaslin. So I have to ask, how did you find this guy? We'll talk about his journey in the book and all that, But yeah, how did you meet him and how did you come to understand who Richard was and what he means in terms of the theme of your book? Yeah, well, this is pretty rare because it's kind of a story that fell in my lap and it forever changed my life and took my life into some strange directions. But what happened was in 2010, I was working on my first book, which is titled Heroes in the Night. actually got a copy on my desk here.

And this book is about this kind of unusual subculture of people that call themselves real-life superheroes. And they actually adopt their own superhero personas. And some of them try to fight crime in the streets. And others have a more mellow take where they do, like, charitable stuff. So I'm trying to wrap my head around this story. And one of the good ideas I had at that time, was I'd started a blog.

It was just a blog spot page that was also called Heroes in the Night. And I was just, you know, talking about some of these real-life superheroes that I was meeting and I'd write little blurbs about them. If I found something interesting in my research, I'd share it on the blog. And it started to get some pretty good traffic because it got picked up by some media outlets that were looking for an expert, quote unquote. So one day I opened my email and I have a message from a guy named Richard McCaslin. And he said, I found your blog and I'm interested in this book that you're working on.

And I think that you might be interested in my story because back in the day I was a real-life superhero. known as the Phantom Patriot. And my claim to fame is that in 2002, I snuck into the Bohemian Grove, and I lit it on fire. And I was like, what? What is this guy talking about? Like, I had never heard of the Bohemian Grove at that point. So I looked it up on Wikipedia, and I was like,

this is really strange. Like, it was, you know, We'll probably get into some more of the details, but I was talking about rich and powerful men doing a ritual in front of a statue of an owl. And I was like, okay, well, I don't know what's going on here, but I'm interested in the story, whatever it is. So I messaged Richard back, and I said, yeah, I'm interested to hear about what your story is and how you got into the Bohemian Grove. and that started this long, almost 10-year process of slowly figuring out what Richard's life story was, interviewing a lot of people who were involved in his life. And one thing that was very clear pretty early on was that, oh, this guy is way into conspiracy theory. And so the book sort of evolved to talk about a lot of conspiracies.

and Richard was sort of my guide into conspiracy land. He would tell me about something and I would look it up and research it. And then it was a book that I was kind of struggling with the direction of where it would go. And in between my first book and this book, I wrote two others. So I would kind of work on this book and then put it on the back burner sometimes for like a year, you know. And then I'd be like, oh, yeah, that story, I really want to tell it. So I'd work on it some more and interview some people. And then eventually the books started to evolve in the direction of this kind of conspiracy culture that we find ourselves in now.

I was like, wow, a lot of the stuff that I'm seeing is stuff that Richard talked to me about years ago. So that kind of became the goal towards the end of the writing process was to tie it into the bigger problem that's going on here. Yeah, and I mean, I'm sure writing is never easy, but, you know, the real world implication, I think, of what you were asking in the book kind of just fell in your lap in the last couple, maybe four years or so. And I think people understand why that might be, but we'll get to that. But yeah, you did mention, let's, I guess kind of run through the Bohemian Grove a little bit. I mean, the first time I remember hearing about it was, um, I did read the John Ronson book. Yeah, yeah. And what was the, oh, Decoded, Brad Meltzer television show. And again, I was just like, whoa.

I mean, I know, like, we heard about skull and bones and, you know, kind of stuff like that throughout the years. But this was an actual place, like you said, where all these elites came, including, like, U.S. presidents and whatnot. I'll shut up. up now and let you kind of run us through. What did you learn about the Bohemian Grove? Give us a little crash course for that. Yeah, I mean, this was really one of the early hooks that really drew me into the story because Richard had told me about this place and I started to hardcore research the

bohemian Grove. And what I found, and this is going to be true of a lot of conspiracies, was a lot of stuff he was telling me about this place was true. So the Bohemian Club started in the late 1800s in San Francisco, and sort of the original idea was that the club was going to help promote the arts in San Francisco, which was still a pretty new city at that time. And so the early members were a lot of poets and artists and journalists, but they sort of ran into this classic dilemma where, they were poor artists and they didn't have money to fund their vision or whatever.

So they began to invite in bankers and other titans of industry. Over the years it evolved and they bought up this land in Northern California, which they called Bohemian Grove. And it's this huge, you know, two or three thousand acre encampment. and this is sort of their retreat. Now, the members are some of the world's most powerful men. It's a men-only club.

They don't allow media into the bochemy and grove. And so when Richard was telling me about this, I was like, okay, I don't know how you could know this. But I found a lot of reports by journalists who have snuck into the grove over the years and a lot of historical documents. So it sounds crazy, but, you know, yes, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan were both members of the club, and they did have a private discussion inside the grow where they talked about which one of them would run for president first. George W. Bush, his father, George H.W. Bush, and Prescott Bush, who is his father, all members of the club.

lots of famous politicians, entertainers, owners of sports leagues and stuff like that. And so when they pay for this membership, which is quite expensive, they have access to go to the Grove anytime they want, as well as the Bohemian Club Clubhouse, which is in downtown San Francisco. But the big sort of party every year happens in mid-July. They do this thing called the summer encampment. And that's when most of the members go out there together. So there is thousands, thousands of guys who go out there. And it's supposed to be this sort of fun, relaxing two-week vacation where they go birdwatching, they go swimming in the river.

They drink a lot. and they sort of kick all this off with a pretty bizarre ritual that's called the cremation of care. It's this very theatrical performance where inside the grove they have a 40-foot statue of an owl. And some of these members are dressed up sort of as druids and they come out with torches. And they say this weird, like, cryptic nature poetry about how, great Mother Earth is. And then they burn this effigy in front of the owl and is called dull care. And this effigy is supposed to represent all of their worldly hassles that they can burn.

And then they're free to party in the woods, you know, now that dull care has been burned. So it is a pretty weird ritual. Here's a fun fact. the Stone Owl speaks to the assembled Bohemians, and this voice, and this is true, by the way, the voice is a recording of beloved news anchor Walter Cronkite, who was a bohemian club member. Nice. Here after year, he burned me in this room. Depends me for a space.

I'm a eminolence which would pursue us here, has lost its power under these friendly trees. so shall we burn thee once again this night and in the flames that deep thine epit we shall redesign midsummer sets us free so you know it's kind of just a bit of theatrics but that's kind of the seed all conspiracies sort of have this seed of truth to them

and the rumors started to get out and conspiracy theorists were like, they're doing this satanic ritual in there. And that owl is supposed to be moloch. And maybe that's not an effigy. Maybe it's a real person that they're burning in front of that owl. And actually, the effigy looks kind of small, so maybe it's a child that they're burning inside of there.

And this is part of their New World Order, satanic, you know, child pedophile ring stuff, which, you know, we've seen repeated over and over again, this sort of mystical cabal of satanic figures who are secretly controlling the world. Right. Yeah. And I mean, like you said, these things kind of recycle themselves

into different iterations throughout conspiracy theory, I think, throughout the decades. And, oh, yeah, we'll definitely get to kind of that seed of the Bohemian Grove and the elites and how it is kind of, like I said, kind of recycled itself and repackaged itself into something today. But yeah, yeah, the Bohemia Grove has been very fascinating to me. I've looked a lot into it as well. And being in the UFO field, we deal with conspiracy theory all the time.

And that's hard because we never want to enable things that might not be true. and cause people to do certain things or not do certain things, which, again, is the implication to many of these and those who spout these conspiracy theories. I'm getting ahead of myself here, though, T. I want to go back to tell us a little about Richard, if you don't mind. I mean, this guy was heavily into comic books. He wanted to be a stuntman out in Hollywood at one point.

What I kind of envisioned when I started reading about him is this aimless guy, who's just trying to figure out where he fits in the world. And a lot of people can relate to that. All of us can in some way, shape, or form. But yeah, could you paint us a little picture of who he is as a human being before we kind of dive into what he's best known for in conspiracy theory circles? Yes. So that was kind of my second step.

My first step was, what is this place of Bohemian Grove? I'd never heard of it. And I wanted to find out why someone would be motivated to, you know, stage a raid on this place, which is what Richard did. So then, you know, I was curious to find out some more about Richard's life. And I slowly pieced it together over years, really. But Richard was born in Zanesville, Ohio. That's where he was raised.

He was a single child. His parents were very heavy into evangelical Christianity. and they were, they had a lot, they had some issues. His father was abusive to him. He had a very bad temper, so he was abusive to him and his mother. So he didn't have a good relationship with his father. He had a great relationship with his mother. And towards the end of his father's life, you know, they kind of made amends with each other a little bit.

So because there was a lot of, fighting inside of his household, I think that he, his escapism was comic books. He became just kind of obsessed with comic books and superheroes. And of course, at this time that he's growing up in the late 60s, early 70s, there was no internet. There wasn't really video games. I mean, I guess he could play Pong. But so he needed something to escape into and comic books. were kind of a cheap, easy solution for that. But I think that's where a lot of these things that would affect him later in his life started

was being so immersed in this comic book world. He started reading every comic book he could find, and one thing that he kind of bonded with his mother over was she loved to sew. So she would make him these really nice costumes for local parades, and costume parties and stuff like that. She made him a Batman costume when he was young.

And he really had this vision that he wanted to actually be a superhero. So when he got out of high school, his dad was kind of like you're 18. You need to get out of the house right now. So he joined the Marines. And he viewed that as sort of a superhero training school. And then when he got out of the Marines, this is when, as you said, he became very aimless. He had these sort of dreams that he was maybe going to be a stuntman or a Hollywood action star.

So he actually went out to a stuntman school in California. And it sounds like a very colorful stuntman training that he went through. It was by an interesting guy named Kim Kahanah, who's kind of a legend in his own right. but he had a lot of trouble finding work. He kind of kicked around Hollywood for a while, trying to find jobs. But as his friend Lon, who he met in stuntman school, said, he didn't really have the social skills, you know. Like if you're going to break into Hollywood, you've got to be out there, like, talking to people all the time, making connections. Right, exactly.

And that wasn't really his strong suit at all. So he just kind of drifted and drifted working odd jobs as a delivery driver. He attempted to go to a wrestling school at one point because he thought maybe he could be like a pro wrestler. And then his life kind of dumped on him pretty bad. He went through a really bad stretch where in the late 90s, roughly from about like 1998, to 2000. He just had this long string of bad things that happened.

Both of his parents died. And that was really hard for him to deal with. You know, his mom died or his father died and then his mom died shortly after that. They left him a pretty sizable inheritance, but

he didn't really have anything to do with the money because he hadn't really pursued a career seriously. He had tried to do some creative endeavors and they kind of fell apart on him. And I think that was very frustrating to him. He had this strange idea about a relationship that he tried to pursue. With a country music star, right? Yes, right. I'm not mistaken. Okay. And it just all like wasn't working out. And I imagine he was feeling just terrible and, you know, sort of helpless and

had nothing to turn to. He didn't have a lot of friends at that time. He had met his friend Lon and Stunt School, but other than that, he didn't have a lot of good friends. So he had no support network or nothing to sort of distract him. And he's sitting around in his apartment. He had moved to Austin, Texas by that point. So he's sitting around, you know, probably stewing on his couch and he turns on Austin Cable Access and that's where he sees a documentary quotes about the Bohemian Grove that was produced by a guy who's pretty well known these days but at the time he was kind of an obscure figure Alex Jones. He sees this documentary and Alex Jones in this documentary puts forward that idea that they are doing satanic rituals in the Bohemian Grove.

And who knows folks, they might be sacrificing live babies and stuff like that. And it kind of just snaps into his head that this is wrong. And, you know, this sounds like it's a documentary, so it's true. And this is going to be my mission. I'm going to suit up as a superhero, get a bunch of weapons, and raid this Bohemian Grove place so I can help these people out that are going to be sacrificed. and so he eventually decides that he's going to do that. And he drives up to the Bohemian Grove.

He moved from Austin to Carson City, Nevada. And he just kind of sat in an apartment there for about a month planning this raid. Yeah, and I know, like, we're seeing the birth of this. kind of new Richard, I guess. It was like a baptism of sorts. And it starts with Alex Jones, of course. So, yeah, I guess, you know, I guess without too much detail,

I definitely want people to read the book. But yeah, tell us about his adventure at the Grove. Finally, he, you know, he suits up in that costume you see in your background there. And I've got the book right here. It's pretty scary, man. If I saw that dude out and about, I would not mess with him.

So, yeah. Tell us a little about the book. Maybe a Grove incident, if you don't mind. Yeah, it was very much a misadventure. It did not go at all how he envisioned in his mind. I think in his mind, he thought that he would sneak into the grove at night, and he would find a group of, you know, politicians and other powerful men who were literally doing a satanic sacrifice and that he would stop them from doing this

and save whoever was, you know, being sacrificed. And then, you know, the media and the police would roll in and the bohemian grove would be busted wide open, and he would be like an actual superhero. But that's not what happened at all. He kind of got lost in the grove. He ended up staying overnight in a cabin that he had broken into. And when the sun rose, he started walking around,

He came face to face with the great owl of Bohemia is the name of the statue, which is supposedly Mollock. And he thought that the statue was made out of wood, like carved out of a redwood tree, but it was made out of stone. So his goal was to set it on fire, but he couldn't. So he started a nearby mess hall on fire instead because he was like, I want to do some damage while I'm in here. That tripped a fire alarm, and he very soon found himself having an armed standoff

with four Sonoma County Sheriff's Department officers, and he was very close to dying. And in fact, he was kind of weighing it over in his mind, whether he wanted to engage or surrender. and at kind of the last second he decided that he was going to surrender to the police. They arrested him and he spent the next roughly six and a half years in jail. And then was out on parole after that for a couple of years. And then after that, you know, he was kind of, I actually started corresponding him with him while he was still on parole.

So he couldn't leave Redwood City is where he was doing his parole. Also, I want to point this out. I haven't done this in interviews before. One of the things I love is I got to see a piece of paperwork that listed his parole stipulations. And they were, he couldn't be within like 15 miles of the Bohemian Grove in Northern California. he couldn't be within one-fourth of a mile of the bohemian club clubhouse in downtown San Francisco. And I love this clause. He could not own costumes was part of his role.

Oh, no. Yeah, that's the one they should be worried about, is owning costumes and not trying to get back in the grove. That's pretty funny. I like that. I've never seen it as a parole stipulation before. Yeah, yeah, that's got to be a first for sure. Well, yeah, so he spends this time in jail, which, again, is just crazy. And kind of the reason he didn't open fire or do anything with these cops is because of this person he was obsessed with.

Again, we'll leave that for the reader to follow that journey, that path in the book, because it's very fascinating as well. but um so we have to talk about your uh your interactions with this guy i mean again you're not one of these writers who just you know says all right i'm just going to interview this person over email or text and call it a day like you met up with him you got to know him and that's what makes him so human in your book where it would be easy to see the you know the guy in the photo of your book and laugh at this crazy journey he went on but i There's a person there and there's a story and there's a reason that everything led up to him following what Alex Jones had to say, trying to light this place on fire, trying to save humanity. So what was it like meeting Richard for the first time?

I can't imagine if I were to go to meet someone this deep into conspiracy theory, I'd be a little nervous. I'm not going to lie. So yeah, what was that experience like? Yeah. So I was corresponding with him. And one thing that was really great, by the way, was when he first contacted me, it was by email. But he was like, you know what, I don't like using email at all because the CIA and the FBI and everyone is monitoring me. And I'm sure I know that he was on like some watch lists and stuff. So he might not have been entirely wrong about that.

So for probably like the first year that I knew him, we corresponded by writing each other letters, which was just so, it was really cool because I was like, wow, I haven't written a letter with a piece of paper and a pen for a long time. So, you know, I would ask him some questions by letter and a week or two later I would get this package that would have like a 16 page letter response. And he answered a lot of my questions that way. But then as his parole was wrapping up, he said, you know, I'm finally free. What I want to do is I want to take a 48 state tour and I'm going to stage a peaceful protest in each state. you know, and he adopted a new superhero persona for this tour that was called Thought Crime. And he sent me his itinerary, and he's like, yeah, you know, I'm going to go to San Francisco and protest by the Bohemian Club,

and then I'm going to go over to the Golden Gate Bridge, and I'm going to go to Vegas, and I'm going to protest on the strip, you know. I was like, wow, this is the strangest road trip adventure I've heard of. But you said, you know, I'm coming to Wisconsin, which I live here in Milwaukee. And he was like, I'd love to meet you while I'm in Milwaukee. And I said, yeah, of course, of course. So this was in July of 2011. He showed up in Milwaukee, and I went downtown to meet him. which was a weird experience.

It's always kind of weird meeting someone in person, especially if they're wearing a superhero costume out in public. But he was really nice. I really like talking to him. He didn't seem like some crazy, kooky guy, like muttering to himself or whatever. He was very well-spoken. And I think that's an important part of his story, too.

like he wasn't stupid. He had read a lot about American history. And, you know, he was very creative person that had artistic abilities. So I met him, I was like, I got along with him really well. And he did a protest march walking around downtown Milwaukee. And this was a clue, by the way, that Richard wasn't alone. We were walking by a hot dog stand vendor. And this guy sees him.

He's like, hey, man, I love this costume. He's like, hey, are you into Alex Jones? And Richard was like, well, yeah, I used to be. And he's like, are you into David Ike? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I love him. He's like, all right, man, free hot dog on the house. I was like, wow, this hot dog bender is a total conspiracy believer. I never would have guessed that, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And so I walked around with him there in Milwaukee. and I met up with him the next day. We went down to Chicago because he wanted to stage a sort of cringeworthy protest in O'Hare Airport. So I went with him and it was nerve-wracking because we walked in and immediately I saw security guards like in every corner of the room talking on their walkie-talkies. And I was like, oh, we're going to get arrested here for sure. But they didn't move on him and he drove off and, he drove off. continued on to Indiana or wherever he was going to complete the rest of his

tour. And I was like, wow. And then I ended up being him two other times after that. And each one was an experience. Right. I know, you know, he would go on to do these videos with his characters that he kind of created and the conspiracy theories behind them. And I know you were a part of that.

I got to know how that was. And you mentioned the name David Ake. We might as well just touch on that right now. He became kind of like the way in which Richard saw the world at that point. He started with what a lot of people do, Alex Jones or these YouTubers who at this point, a lot of them don't even really exist anymore because of de-platforming and stuff like that, which is another issue we'll get to. But the one thing about Ike that really caught my attention was,

you know, Richard started believing in this whole reptilian thing, which is huge in the UFO field. So why do you think it is that he started gravitating, leaving what Alex Jones had to say and moving to this other, you know, conspiracy guru, as we call them and believing this,

I would say, much more ridiculous. kind of reality than what Alex Jones was saying. Yeah. So I think we'll talk a little bit about this later, too. But Alex Jones, after Richard was caught and, you know, he's awaiting trial, Richard had a public defender who represented him. And I got to do an interview with him, too. His name's Jeff Mitchell, a very interesting guy. So Jeff attempted to contact Alex Jones because he was like maybe he can help me with this case

in some way. Like, you know, he could have Richards back in some way, try to provide information as to why he would be motivated there. And the story didn't get picked up by a lot of media, but it was covered in some newspapers in Northern California. And they also attempted to, contact Alex Jones to get a comment on the story. And Alex Jones was like, this guy sounds crazy. I have no idea why he would do that. Don't talk to me. I'm not going to participate in any way.

So obviously, Richard felt very betrayed that this person who had inspired him so much offered him zero support at all. And so I think he was looking for someone to replace Alex Jones. And he was, And he happened upon the work of David Ike and completely dived into it. He went to go see one of David Ike's lectures, which, by the way, lasts about nine and a half hours long. That's one. Dude, I can barely do like 45 minutes on his stage. I know. I know.

I was like, I don't see how it's possible. But he went and attended the entire nine and a half hour long. And this is what I found to be so crazy about this story. Richard, when he went into the Grove, part of his motivation, I would say, is that he was very much into Christianity. You know, he quoted a lot of Bible verses as being his inspiration for, you know, the law of God being above the law of man, and that's why he had raided the place. and then while he was in prison he converted to be a Jehovah's Witness. But he gets out, he starts reading the work of David Ike, and he completely abandons religion entirely

because he's so inspired by his work. And he, this was, I had not really heard of reptilians. I'd kind of, I had heard something about them, but probably in the second or third letter that he wrote to me, he mentioned something about a reptilian agenda. And I said, could you tell me more about that? And boy, did he, because the next letter I got was like a 20-page explanation of reptilians and how the earth is hollow and there's a reptilian base inside of it.

And the moon is like a reptilian spacecraft. And they're disguised as world leaders. and so this was such an alarm bell to me. The Nashville bombing happened on Christmas, which is so shocking, right? This RV explodes. But he was warning people to stay away. And I had a hunch that turned out to be right on this.

I was like, I bet this guy is into some conspiracy stuff. Because he's not randomly trying to kill people. it seemed like he was targeting that AT&T center. But he had this... IG thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And he had this loudspeaker warning people to stay away. So I was like, there's got to be some conspiracy stuff going on here.

And sure enough, before he died in that suicide bombing, he had mailed out some packages to some different people he knew. And in them was a lot of stuff about reptilians and other... aliens and a bunch of other conspiracy theories. So here's a guy who looks like he had some similarities to Richard. Right. Yeah. And I will see that kind of play through a lot of these things. I believe you covered in the book and I remember reading in the news about a couple who

also believed in the reptilian thing and ended up murdering the other one because they were a reptilian. Again, like these details in your book are. so rich and I don't want to give everything away. But I guess, you know, now he's all in. Like, Richard has created this new reality in which kind of everyone's the enemy, which is interesting too because this is a guy just looking for acceptance and looking for a connection with other human beings.

Yet everyone is kind of the enemy. It's such a weird, perverse way of, um, living your life. But that's kind of how it is for people who get involved in these heavy conspiracy theories. And I think the other thing that really hit me was when you talked about when you went with him to the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And he finally had his moment to be outside of the club and give that famous, you know, speech, at least to him famous, right and he got pretty choked up and I remember you you put the speech in your book you can find it on YouTube and I really felt for him in that moment because he wasn't alone in that moment you were

there he had other people supporting him and I think that's kind of what he always wanted here in front of the bochemian club with Richard McCaslin who has returned once again as a phantom patriot is going to say a few words here today my name is Richard McCassel. Ten years ago, I was arrested outside the Bohemian Road. My goal was to expose the Bohemian's crime to pedophilia, torture, murder, and treason against the American people. In 2002, I failed to convince a jury that these atrocities were occurring because I had the proof. Don't let these cold-blooded reptiles destroy the world. In 2002, I was alone.

I faced these bastards. Today, I stand here with the Pacific Protectorate, and I ask America, all Americans, to do the same thing. Thank you. So what was that experience like at the Bohemian Club? And now you were in, man. Like, he put you, he made you introduce him and the speech and everything.

So what was that experience like? And what did you take away from it when he kind of got pretty emotional with it all? What's up guys, Ryan Sprag here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return,

including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. It was a crazy weekend for sure.

So in 2012, he had switched back to email by this point. When he was on tour, he decided that he was okay using email again. So he sent me an email and he said, you know, January 20th, 2012 is going to be the 10-year anniversary of the date that I rated the Bohemian Grove. So what I want to do is dress up as the Phantom Patriot again. And I'm going to march to the Bohemian Club in downtown San Francisco. And I'm going to stand out front and read a speech.

And I want you to be there. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. You know, I'm going to fly out to San Francisco. He had made a connection within the real-life superhero community. I should note that at first, the real-life superheroes didn't want to have anything to do with this guy. like they were like this guy sounds completely crazy he sounds like he's potentially dangerous like we don't want him part of our movement or subculture or whatever you want to call it but he had made a connection there was a real life superhero from san francisco

who is known as motor mouth and that is because this dude cannot stop talking you know this talks his entire stream of consciousness nonstop And as it turns out, he was sort of a conspiracy believer himself. So he liked Richard, he liked this idea of meeting Richard. And he was like, well, he's not wrong, you know, I agree with some of the stuff that he says. And then he also roped in one of his team members named Mutinous Angel, who I don't think had any idea what was going on. So the two of them met me and Richard. We had a camera person with him who was a person.

a friend of a friend who lives in San Francisco. We walked up to the Bohemian Club, and he read the speech, and he got it off his chest. He accused the Bohemian Club of doing these rituals in the Grove. He read an excerpt from a book that was very influential on him called Transformation of America, which is this very strange account by a woman named Kathy O'Brien. and he read that and he was just so glad that he wasn't alone, that there was at least, you know, a few other people with him. And some people stopped.

They were walking on the street and they kind of just stopped and pulled out their cameras like people do. So he had a little audience, not a big audience, but he at least had a few people who were listening to him. And when he was done at the speech, he just kind of broke down a little bit. And he was like, this is all that I've wanted for the last 10 years. And he was like, don't let these people rule your life.

And he had a moment. And I had really hoped, honestly, I'd really hoped that this was sort of cathartic and that maybe he had finally gotten some closure and he could move in a healthier direction after that. But that turned out to not be correct. Right. Is that something you're willing to share with us, T. I know it's a pretty impactful part of the book as well. And you detail it so respectfully, I think. Because again, it's so easy to just laugh at what this guy has done and the life he led and move on with your life. But again, there's a person here, someone who there's a reason that things led up to this point. So yeah, if you're okay, sharing with, what happened to Richard and what that makes you, you know, getting to know this guy. Yeah, you know, I, of course, didn't believe in almost anything that Richard believed in conspiracy-wise. But there was, there was a lot of things that I liked about him.

He, I thought, was a very creative individual. He had made all of these superhero costumes, which looked really cool. This was sort of a hobby he had been doing his whole life. He was an illustrator. He created these very interesting-looking comic books. And, you know, he had made these videos that, you know, had some fun elements to it. So I thought he was creative and imaginative. But that imagination, unfortunately, I think, was also, it was like a double-edged sword.

Because it made him see symbolism and stuff that was not. there and it was taking a very heavy toll on him. So, you know, in 2000, early, early 2019, I was working a part-time gig as a bartender and I got a text from Lon who was the guy that Richard met in stuntman school. And Lon was really his only, long-term friend that he had. And, you know, Lon told me he felt like Richard didn't have a lot of friends and he needed somebody to kind of look out for him. And he kind of selflessly filled that role. So Lon sent me a text and said, I have to talk to you about Richard, call me as soon as you can.

And right then, I knew that something terrible had happened to Richard. I thought that he had either perhaps, for some reason, snapped and done something like gone back to the Bohemian Grove or who knows, or that he was dead. And as it turns out, he died. In 2018, he packed up his stuff. He drove out to Washington, D.C. he parked in front of a Freemason temple in Washington, D.C. It's about a mile away from the White House. And he died by suicide in his truck,

which had a bunch of signs on it that were talking about Freemason conspiracies and stuff. So that was kind of his last message. And it was very sad to me because I had taken the time to get to know him. And like I said, he had this creative ability. I just wish, I really wish he could have channeled some of that in a different direction. But I really feel that the conspiracies just had slowly dragged them down over a long period of time. And eventually, they killed them.

Right. It's very tragic. And, you know, I feel the same way because, I mean, being in the UFO field and kind of the circles I'm in, I get sent messages and emails constantly about, have you heard about, you know, the thing going on with 5G or the reptilians or Q and non? And I'm just like, you're too important in the world to people and to society to get into this. And that's what's most scary to. And we'll talk about that in a little bit is I feel like early on in conspiracy theory circles, you kind of,

You could laugh about it, you know, the whole tinfoil hat sort of thing and whatnot. And you could have fun. And it was cool to question things. And I will admit for a little while, I was heavy into the truther thing about 9-11 and kind of stuff like that. But, you know, as you evolve and see the world for what it really is, it's not easy to create a conspiracy that elaborate. it. I'm sure it happens, and we can talk about that. But moving away from Richard, because again, like, he's kind of the impetus or not the impetus. He's kind of the allegory for the overarching issue here of conspiracy. And again, there's so much we didn't touch on about Richard that people really need to read the book to get into. But let's talk about in general. We live in a world now full of conspiracy theory. unchecked, Wild West sort of thing. And it's not like it used to be, you know, where who shot JFK was the most controversial thing we were talking about.

And that's changed a lot. But I know you also, what I liked about the book is you intertwine Richard's story with all these other things that you explore. JFK conventions, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, all these different sort of things. where did we take that turn, man, where it went from like, you shot Drake, Tata, the free world leader, cheering on people who attacked the Capitol. Where did that happen? For you, what do you think?

Yeah. So, completely like you're saying, you know, my introduction, before I met Richard, I was like, oh, yeah, I know what conspiracy is, and I kind of like it. So my introduction was probably when I was a teen. I read a lot of books about UFO case files and stuff like that. And I loved it.

I was like, oh, this is so interesting. And of course, a lot of that intersects with conspiracy because it's talking about government conspiracy, hiding up UFOs. I loved X-Files in the 90s, of course. And they had these characters on the show, The Lone Gunmen. And I was like, I love these guys. guys are cool. They're like eccentric and they're exploring all this weird stuff. So that's really how I viewed conspiracy at that point. Like, you know, it's kind of this fun, interesting exploration of stuff that may or may not be true. And like you said, the classics, JFK assassination,

UFO cases like Area 51 and Roswell and stuff like that. So I had this like naive kind of charming view of conspiracy going in. And that stuff still, I mean, I still think is great. I'm still interested in UFOs. I don't particularly subscribe to any one particular JFK theory, but I think it's an interesting mystery. There's a lot of weird stuff that happened that day in Dallas. So that's still stuff that I like.

Where I think it begins to take an ugly turn, I think number one is, I think that there's three things. Number one is 9-11. You know, that is a pretty heavy conspiracy theory because it suggests that our government let thousands of our citizens either willingly die or they had some knowledge of it beforehand or they actively applaud themselves. And, you know, it's still, I know if there's probably a lot of young people where this is not something they experience. but I remember very clearly where I was on 9-11, and just what a terrible feeling it was seeing those images on TV. So I think there is sort of this like disbelief and anger,

and I think that it really started. Richard, for example, had been thinking about the Bohemian Grove, and the quote that he gave me was that he hadn't really committed to the idea of rating the Bohemian Grove or whatever he was going to do, until 9-11 happened. And then he was like, that changed things for me. Okay, now I was ready to go in there and possibly die because of these conspiracies. So I think that's an important milestone.

Number two, I'll tell you when I really started to fall out of love with conspiracy theory, or I realized that it could have a really, really dark side. and that was the suggestion that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax, which was something that was promoted in a lot of conspiracy sites in these poor families. It like this turns my stomach to think of it. They not only had to deal with their young children being massacred in this school shooting, but they then were being harassed by conspiracy theorists who would call them, email them, sometimes stop them on the street and say, hey, why are you pretending that you had a kid that died in this school shooting?

That was when I was like, wow, this can be just the most ugly side of humanity can be wrapped up in some of these conspiracies. So it was a really turning point for me personally and for a lot of people, I think. This is when, you know, Alex Jones had kind of been ignored before that as being some sort of crack. pot that was off wherever, just ignore him. But after that, you know, is when people began to take him to court, as they should have. And the last major milestone, I will say, is the campaign and election of Donald Trump. He, more than anyone, normalized conspiracy theory. He's constantly talking about them, tweeting them out, using them as sort of a weapon against anyone that he doesn't like, really.

And that had severe consequences, I think, because he was spreading these conspiracy theories, and he had a very powerful platform to do that. You know, he wasn't some guy broadcasting out of his basement out in the desert somewhere or whatever. So he was a guy who's the president of the United States. And so he had a very powerful voice, and he used that to spread a lot of conspiracies, is a wide range, birthrism, QAnon stuff, you know, whatever fit into his agenda. So I think those were three, at least not all of them, but three major points that I can think of.

Yeah. Well, I mean, let's touch on the Trump thing, because there's no getting around it. And I know there'll be people watching and listening that are either offended by what we say or annoyed or what have you. I don't care because you're right. I mean, facts are facts. The president of the United States did not denounce these crazy theories. He did not, you know, there was no punishment for those who sought out violence against these sort of things. There are members of Congress or the Senate who have gone up to people from Sandy Hook and told them,

you're lying, which is just one of the most despicable things I could, I could even think of, like you said, the whole crisis actor thing, another big part of your book. And yeah, when you have the president empowering and emboldening these people, that's an issue. And there's really no getting around that, no matter what your politics are. I'm not saying Democrats are any better libertarians or socialists or what have you. The fact of the matter is the previous president would ever got him votes. So let's talk about that. I mean, we have YouTube, YouTubers who spout all these theories as well and have just made QAnon this huge monolithic thing now. And I seriously doubt that a lot of them actually believe what they're saying.

But whatever gets them up to a million views, whatever gets you votes or gets, see in the newspaper and the headlines. So let's let's let's let's talk about it. Q and on the biggest one right now. What do you think of this whole thing man? I mean, it's just it's insane that we've gotten to this point where it's gone mainstream. Again, the president of the United States had to actually talk about it. Didn't have to, but chose to. And yeah, what do you got for me in terms of Q and on? Yeah. He was. He was finally called out about this, and he had a good opportunity to say, hey, he was like, I don't know what QN is. Okay. I'm pretty sure that you know a QN is by this point. If you don't have one of your aides, go over to Google and find out what it is because everyone's talking about it. But he was just kind of weaseling his way out of talking about it when he had a really good opportunity to be like, this thing that's being spread around is not true. obviously, you know, these theories about like a satanic ring of Democrats and Hollywood and stuff like that is not something that I endorsed.

That's all he had to say. But of course, you know, he completely said, oh, I don't know who they are. I hear that they're good people, though. And they very much don't like pedophiles, which is great. But QAnon, I really feel is a cult. It's no longer like a fringe idea or a movement. It's a cult. And Donald Trump essentially is a cult leader, like Jim Jones or someone, along with this mysterious idea that there's someone named Q out there when this is someone who's probably just trolling or more likely benefiting from spreading these ideas.

and it's very cult-like in a number of ways. One is they are completely willing to sever their relationships with family and loved ones. And this is really sad and tragic. I actually have a very good friend and he lost his mom down the queue rabbit hole. And it's very difficult for him. Like he can't communicate with her anymore because she's always like trying to convince him. about this QAnon stuff. And this is a story that's being

repeated all over. So they kind of, they'll sever the ties to their loved ones and their new family is their fellow QAnon people. That's very cult-like, you know? And then the other thing is, as we saw,

on January 6th, there was a lot of QAnon believers who were part of that mob in the insurrection, or as I jokingly call it sometimes, the QData. But those people, they were willing to die for this cause. And some of them did die for the cause.

So again, I think this is very cult-like. And the strategy for approaching it is perhaps the same way that you would try to deprogram a cult. Because I think that's how far they are. And another major thing, and this is, I mean, it's funny, but it isn't. cults a lot of times will envision a day of reckoning of some sort, you know, a biblical apocalypse or a UFO is going to land and they're all going to climb on board and escape the earth, you know. For QAnon, it's this idea of the storm is going to happen.

And Trump is going to be victorious and all of these sinister enemies are all of these. all going to be rounded up and exposed for being pedophiles and cannibals, and they're all going to be put away. So what happens with cults is that day won't happen, and some of them will kind of wake up, and they'll be like, oh, I believe this thing that isn't true at all, and I'm moving on with my life. But then you have the hardcore people, and they will keep it going, and they're, you know, they'll have this high level of cognitive disavis.

where they try to think their way around this obstacle. So, for example, some QAnon believers now believe that Trump actually is going to be sworn in as president on March 4th, because March 4th was the date for a long time when presidents were sworn into office. But at some point, they're like, you know, from the November election to March is kind of a long time to do his transition. why don't we shorten it up to January? But they believe that, you know, surprise, like Biden wasn't a legitimate president because he wasn't sworn in on March 4th and Trump is going to. It's really amazing that your mind can make that stretch,

but that's really the nature of a cult. Yeah. And, you know, I remember the day of the inauguration when it didn't happen. the great storm didn't come. You know, people started going on these Q&N forums and watching these people have a meltdown and, you know, laughing about it. And again, it's hard because I don't want to paint all these people

as crazy or members of a cult. But you're right, there are cult-like mentalities clearly happening here. And it's not just like, you know, loners who have nowhere else to go and this is the tribe that they finally found, kind of like Richard would be, you have successful businessmen and women

who believe in Q&N. You have the barista at your coffee shop or the foreman for a construction company. It doesn't seem to kind of fit that mold anymore of lost people finding something, which is scary. So I guess kind of playing off of that, man, what do we do? I mean, the bell has been run.

Can we not, will this ever stop or will it just like you said evolve into something else? These people firmly believe they're right and that they are, you know, you mentioned in the book this idea of the Dunning Kruger effect. Like thinking you are smarter than everyone else and you know the real truth, which is a whole other issue as well. but de-platforming happens on YouTube. You know, Alex Jones, David Ike, they've all been taking off social media, this, that, this that. And then everyone starts saying, our free speech is disappearing. Oh, my God. What do you think?

Because, I mean, yeah, of course, we all are advocates of free speech in this country. It's one of our, you know, our founding things in the Constitution. But how do we stop what seems to be something that, just grows bigger and more insidious and more violent up to the point where people died at the Capitol because of this. Yeah. It's a really hard question. You know, and it's something that I've thought about a lot as I was finishing the book and throughout the last year, year plus now. Yeah, it's a problem. I think that number one, it should be addressed as a national emergency, really. There should be not some conspiracy, like, you know, police state or something, but I'm saying there should be definitely a committee that is trying to think of solutions.

I think that, and I hope that, I don't know, I hope that schools will begin to implement things like mandatory media literacy classes. So people can learn, you know, what a good source of information is. and, you know, what type of media has factual reporting and what type of sites are like InfoWars? Because it's really hard to tell the difference between legit news and misinformation right now. I mean, I've been fooled before. I've seen something that looks like a headline. I'm like, I can't believe that that happened. And then, you know, a few clicks later, I'm like, oh, this didn't happen.

This is some garbage site. There's a site that actually gets me all the time on Facebook. Facebook. And it's called like, we got this covered or something like that. And it'll have news about superhero movies. I'm like, what? And then I'll click on the link. It'll be like, so we heard a rumor from somebody that this is going to happen. I was like, you totally got me. That's not true at all. Yeah. So, but this, there's so much of that being pumped out that I hope that we teach children how to make choices about information that they get. And, you know, there's this term that really kind of makes me cringe.

And it's do your own research. Now, I love to do my own research. I'm sure that you do too, Ryan. You know, when I was young, I used to love to do nothing more than go to the library and look through books and pick out books I wanted to read. So I think that doing research is a great thing. But like you were saying with the Dunning-Kroger thing, you know, your research is not equitable to someone who does actual research

in fields like science and technology and stuff. So, I mean, it just needs to be addressed as a problem. There needs to be better education. As far as deplatforming, I think that's such a whack-a-mole problem. You know, for example, YouTube, this is just so crazy. To back up, there were these researchers at a university, and they went to some flat earth conferences, and they did questionnaires with people who attended them.

And they found that 99.9% of flat earthers had gotten into that because they got sucked down a YouTube rabbit hole. They're watching something about something else, and YouTube pushed them towards the flat earth stuff, and then they were binge watching Flat Earth videos, and some of them make what seems like a reasonable argument. And then the next thing you know, they're at a Flat Earth conference.

So YouTube eventually pulled those videos, but by the time they did, there already was this entire sub-reth, culture of flat earthers. They have their own conferences. They record their own flat earth hip hop, which is very interesting music to hear.

Interesting. Yeah. So it was too little too late. And I think that's the problem with a lot of these deep platforming things is they wait until it's a huge, huge problem. Yeah. And then, you know, there is the argument to be made.

I don't know how much I agree with it, But by pulling these people off of their platforms, you're kind of, you're giving them a sort of hip factor that they're the truth tellers and, you know. A martyr, right? Right. Yes. Yes, exactly. Right. So it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation. I don't know. The other thing that's really hard about this is it's really hard to talk someone out of these beliefs once they've jumped into. to them. Yes. I think that's one of the major issues is, like you said, we live in a world now

where we can't tell fake news from real news. And you know, you can blame the mainstream media for some of that, obviously. Certain news media sites exist for a very biased approach to something politically, economically. And at the end of the day, they want views, they want ratings. YouTubers want people to stream their stuff or to click like on their social media. So they're going to just keep spouting these things that are unsubstantiated, unfounded, because that's what you do. And it's scary.

It's scary to think that no matter what we do to try to convince people that, you know, you should be wearing a mask during the pandemic. It's not going to change their mind. It's just not. And people are going to get sick and people are going to die because of it. And again, you know, I don't want to make this whole conspiracy theory issue about bashing the right or conservatives. It seems to be a large percentage statistically of the more extreme right side that

believes in a lot of this stuff. But hey, look, I'm, I'm on the opposite side of that when it comes to that sort of stuff. And I still fall for fake news. And I still think, huh, maybe there is something to that conspiracy. So, look, anyone can get sucked into this stuff. And like you said, with YouTube, yeah, you type in like, you want to know one little thing about Flat Earth. You're going to end up watching 10 hours.

That's what YouTube does. They want you to stay on that site for 10 hours. So they are going to use their algorithms to keep giving you more flat earth stuff. And by the end, of course you're going to start believing it because you just watch 10 hours about it. So I have to agree with you. I feel helpless in trying to convince these people that not only are these things dangerous, but they're just, they're not real. They're not real.

But let's, I guess, on a lighter note, T, what is real? As someone who has gone to the UFO Congress, to anti-vaxxer events, to flat-earth conferences, I mean, you've done it all, man, at this point. What conspiracy theories do you personally think are healthy, I guess, in one way of putting it? And yeah, any that you really think could be true. Yeah. And all this, by the way, is a subject I mean, explore in a column in a couple of weeks called Good, Weird, Bad Weird,

where I'm talking about stuff that I love. You know, I love paranormal stuff and UFOs and stuff like that. So, and this is an important point, too. In my book, there are several points in which I tell a story about something. something that probably sounded like a conspiracy theory as it was happening or afterward, what that we now know is true. For example, the M.K. Ultra program, right? Right.

So this is a terrible CIA program where they tested different drugs on unwitting people to see if they could possibly come up with some sort of agent that would be a mind control device that they could use, you know, in the Cold War. So they did these terrible experiments on people without their knowledge or consent. And if that would have been leaked out in any way, I'm sure people have been like, oh, that's a conspiracy theory. That sounds crazy, you know. But we know that's true because they tried to shred all the documents on that, but some

of them had been misfiled. So there was a freedom of. Information Act request and those files were discovered and they lay out just part of the program. Who knows what the full scope of the program was? Just the part that we know about was absolutely terrible. And there's other stories like that throughout history of things that are conspiracy like, but we know that they're true. There's evidence that they're true.

So I certainly, you know, don't ever want to be like, oh, all conspiracy, this is all fake, everything's a conspiracy is total garbage because those stories are true and a lot of conspiracies start because there is some kernel of truth but then people it's like that telephone game that you play when you're a kid where you whisper something in one person's ear and they whisper it into the next person's ear and by the time you get to the end of the line it's a

it's a message that sounds a little bit like the original but not quite so I think that there are, there is a lot of truth and there is a lot of legitimate mystery. I very much think that UFOs are going to be a big story this year. And the story that it's going to turn out that a lot of the stuff wasn't conspiracy, it was true, true stuff, you know. Good answer, good answer, my man. No, I absolutely believe that, you know, we're going to find out, some interesting stuff about UFOs.

Yeah, I would have to agree. And like you said, some of these conspiracies turn out to be true. I mean, you know, there's that old saying, like, it takes two people to create a conspiracy, to conspire where the word comes from. So, I mean, a lot of these things, it's just like we deal with in the UFO field when it comes to disinformation or whatnot. when it comes to something like the MJ12 documents, these supposed files.

Where, you know, like all these historical, powerful elite were investigating UFOs and we're having treaties with aliens, blah, blah, blah. And we've all kind of come to the conclusion and many very prominent UFO researchers and historians that there's probably some truth in here, but a lot of it's just there to make you look the other way. those, those, you know, those two lies between the truth, as it were. So I would have to agree. I think, you know, this 2021 is going to be an interesting year, especially with all the political

strife in the United States going on and will probably continue, unfortunately. But for the UFO world, man, I think some big stuff is coming down down the pike. And I'm looking forward to that. But I just, I can't help but. have this pit in my stomach when it comes to this trial going on right now in America with the second impeachment of a president of the United States and having incited and almost allowed what happened at the Capitol to happen. What do you think? Are we going to see more of these things popping up? I mean, I know there have been threats by things like the proud boys or these other groups that were a part of what happened at the Capitol saying we're not done,

you know, there's more stuff coming down that we're going to be doing. What do we do? How do we combat these things when we don't even know who's involved and we can't tell up from down, left, from right anymore? I sound very pessimistic, but it's because I'm legitimately concerned for what's going on. It is absolutely concerning. very concerning. And that's why I say, you know,

conspiracy should be dressed as like a health emergency, a national health emergency, really. Because, and by the way, these are people now that Trump is no longer in office. They believe that the election was a fraud. And they're not just coming after Democrats.

These people were chanting, hang Mike Pence. Right. And they're confronting Mitt Romney and Lindsay Graham at airports. I've seen video of both of those. So they're after the entire deep state, which is pretty much anyone who isn't completely aligned with Trump. And all of those people that you saw, they didn't magically disappear to anywhere. They're still out there, and they're super pissed off.

And they feel like they've witnessed this election. fraud pulled off by the deep state or whoever. So I think that things to look out for, do you remember over the summer it was revealed there was this plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan? Right. Yeah. Because they viewed her as a tyrant because she had lockdown orders in Michigan, of course, because there was a pandemic. So there was this

militia-type group that called themselves the Wolverine Watchmen was the name of their group. Nice. Two comic book references in one group. And they were conspiracy believers too. They had shared links to InfoWore

stuff. They had shared links to pandemic hoax stuff. And they had progressed on this plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan and hold a mock trial. for her or whatever. I think that we're going to see more plots like that in the future.

Plots to kidnap, disrupt, you know, a sort of like civil war mindset of taking on the government, which is really frightening to think about that there are a lot of people out there with this mindset now. Yeah. It's hard because, you know, look at the war, the war on terror, as it were. You know, we think like going over to the Middle East,

or, you know, to Africa, or wherever these horrible things are happening with, quote unquote, terrorists, that by blowing up a small town full of the terrorists that it's going to solve the problem, or, you know, look at America right now. We're arresting all the people that did what happened at the Capitol. But that's not going to stop the idealism that has been breeded and ingrained into these people's minds. It's probably going to make them more angry and empowered, you know, All these, you know, you got the dude with the face paint and the horns in jail right now, and he's become like an icon for these people who still believe in these things.

They're not going to come out being like, I've learned my lesson. It was all false. I was dup. It's just going to be another part or layer to the story that they're creating as they're going on. So that's what troubles me most is you can, yeah, you can stop certain terrorist groups from doing things, but you can't stop them all. Yeah, and this has really been the wildest thing for me as far as, like, looking at the big picture from 2010, when I first got an email from Richard to 2020, 21.

You know, in 2010, Richard was very typical of what you would think of a conspiracy believer. He was kind of a lone wolf, you know. He had all these ideas, and he, this. kind of sat alone as house and then he did this, you know, this raid and it was kind of like, oh, here's this one guy who's really fringe. But now, you know, fast forward to 2021 and you look at those pictures of the Capitol and there's thousands of people there and they all believe this conspiracy on some level, you know, some more than others, but they all at least believe the general premise that the election was stolen with, you know, a fake back.

and stuff like that. And it's an army of conspiracy theorists. This is no longer like some lone guy out in the desert or, you know, the weird guy who lives down the road from you. It's like a full on like army of conspiracy believers. So it's just really shocking to see it move that direction. Yeah. It's shocking.

It's disconcerting. And, you know, all of this while we're still dealing with a pandemic, which has also become part of the whole conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's really, it's been such a bad stew of, you know, the pandemic, the civil unrest, having a president that's constantly like blaring out conspiracy. It just all mixed together to be this really toxic mix of, and, you know, people sitting at home, they're scared, they're angry, they're on the internet all the time. Right.

That's a big part of it, yeah. I think these lockdowns have been a huge part of why people are spending 10 hours on YouTube watching flat earth presentations or don't take the vaccine. Like, you know, it's going to kill you, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I think there's a lot of elements to a lot of this. There's no one right answer of how to deal with it. And it's tough, man. And, you know, I don't want this conversation or interview to be like doom and gloom,

like, we're all going to die. Like, this is the end of society. But we have to acknowledge the issues, which you do so well in the book, of what can happen when one guy believes all this. What about an army of them, like you said? So I guess kind of wrapping up everything in a conspiracy bow, what do you want people to take away from the book, whether it's about the story of Richard or the overarching issues? Yeah, what did you walk away with after coming out with the book with?

And why should people read it? You know, I think when I first started on this, I was just kind of, I was kind of delighted that I had come across this eccentric person who had this interesting life story. So I was like, all right, this is going to be fun for me to write this because I'm going to get to tell about all the weird details of this guy's life. But, you know, I started to get to know him. And here's a really amazing thing, I think.

You know, this is maybe, I've been working on the book for a couple years. And I started talking to people about it pretty regularly. They'd be like, you know, hey, T. What have you been working on? I'll be like, oh, I'm working on this book about this really interesting guy. And he believes in reptilians. And he's into all sorts of conspiracy. And there are so many times where I would tell him.

people about this, and they would be like, hey, this sounds like this guy that lives down the street from me, or this sounds like my ex-boyfriend, or a guy I used to work with. And I was like, wow, there's a lot of people out there that are not that different from Richard. And now, you know, I mean, we have a congressperson, Marjorie Green, who was in the news a lot over the last couple weeks because, you know, she had some QAnon beliefs. But a lot of the stuff that Congresswoman Marjorie Green believes in were the same sort of ideas that Richard believed in. So this is a story about America, really. And I hope that reading the book, people can understand a little bit about where some of this comes from and why and what some of the motivations

behind it are. And it's a, it's a tragic story. I mean, I think there is some, some fun, interesting parts of the story as well. But ultimately, it's about a person who had a life and his life was really slowly destroyed because of these conspiracy theory beliefs. And that's really tragic. It is. And I think, again, you hit on it. so well in the book and in this interview tonight of this was a person, you know, as much as we

think it might be a cool, funny, kind of kooky story. It ended tragically. And that's the same for a lot of these people out there who do believe in these things. And it's so easy for us to laugh at them and think they're stupid for believing these things. But there's a person behind that. And there's a reason that it got to this point, a desperation to make sense of the world around you. And I think you talk about this in the book a lot. A lot of these people, they just want to know there's a structure to the chaos that is this world. None of us know why we're truly here. One of the biggest questions we'll ever have. And everyone wants purpose and meaning. And people, when they can't find it somewhere, they're going to find it somewhere else.

And you will have people like Alex Jones or David, like taking advantage of that, like a cult leader would. So again, I think it's a book about America. I love that you put it that way. There's a reason it's called American Madness. And yeah, these things exist all throughout the world and other countries and continents. But when you live in a country that prides itself on diversity and free speech and a right to bear arms, that comes with a lot of, you know, caveats. And I think you're right.

It's a reflection on where we've been in the past, where we are now, and hopefully a better tomorrow. I hope. What do you think, do you have hope? I do. I mean, it's easy to get overwhelmed, like, thinking about how many people believe in this stuff. But, you know, I try to balance that out by thinking about how many people are out there doing good stuff and trying to get good information out there in the world because there are those people too. And hopefully that's helping to balance the scales a little bit. Yeah.

And, you know, if there's anything I've learned, it's just because someone believes in this Q&N stuff. Like, it's easy to just, you know, go on social media and say, you're an idiot, you're an idiot. But my mentor, Peter Robbins, told me when I got into the UFO field, he said, you're going to meet some crazy people with crazy stories. And it's going to be tough. He said, so you have to have empathy. And just kind of put yourself in their shoes and try to understand how he got to this point with this individual who claims they'd been abducted by aliens or they'd met the

reptilians. So I think I kind of take that into consideration, too, is having empathy and there's a reason they got to this point. Let's try to figure that out and talk about it instead of, I think it comes down to, we have a lot more in common with each other than we don't. And I think if more people thought that way, hopefully we'll live in a better world someday. But yeah, man, I'm looking forward to 2021 in the UFO world with a lot of reflection as well in this country of what has happened and hopefully what will not happen again with these attacks and death threats to either side of the aisle, like you mentioned. We have to look past politics when it comes to all this and hopefully come out on the other side, better people.

So that's my little soapbox moment. But before we go, brother, yeah, is there anything else I'm really missing that you wanted to discuss in terms of either the book or conspiracy, theory? No, I think that we covered a lot of it. It's interesting. The only thing I would, you know, I like trying to have an open mind. I think that I'm open-minded about a lot of things. You know, like I said, I'm into a lot of paranormal stuff. So I'm certainly willing to entertain ideas, but, you know, there's a line, there's sort of a line where that really became clear to me working on this book and over the last couple of years where I can I can hang with someone telling me about how they telepathically communicate with Bigfoot or something. I was like, okay. But if, you know, someone starts telling me about how Hillary Clinton eats babies or something and they're

going to get a bunch of guns and go try to shoot her, it's a different story, you know. So it's it's something I've really been kind of struggling with, like, in the paranormal world sometimes, just trying to differentiate between, like I say, what's good, weird, interesting, fun stuff, and what's maybe some Q-Non propaganda or something like that? Yeah, yeah, it's, and it doesn't get easier, trust me, brother. It's a struggle every day for me as well in the UFO field. But you mentioned the word weird, so we have to talk about your podcast, your website. Tell us about everything you got going on over there.

And of course, where can we get American Madness? Oh, cool. Yeah, so I have a website, T-Cruelos.com, and you can find out information about all of my books on there. I also write a weekly column called T's Weird Week, and it's really just me writing about whatever subject I want to. that particular week, as the title implies, you know, I write a lot about paranormal stuff, conspiracy, unusual subcultures, stuff like that. And just about a month ago, I started doing a podcast version of the column where, you know, I interview someone like Ryan was on a recent episode, which was great. I interview a guest, and then me and my friend Heidi kind of go

through some weird news. And we usually end with a track. from an awesome band. So it's fun. I'm enjoying doing that. It was kind of a pandemic project that I finally got around to. But you can check that out every week at t-crulos.com. Awesome, my man.

And the book is available, I assume. Oh, yeah, it's available. Yeah, I usually tell people to check out bookshop. org because they're a cool site and they actually kick some money to local independent bookstore. So I really like that option, but it is available wherever you can find books as well. And if you go at my website, I have an American Madness tab that has some links to places you can buy it. Cool.

Well, I want to end with you mentioned music, and that was part of the book as well. Can you remind me of, I mean, this is crazy. One of the, some band actually made a song about the Phantom Patriot, this guy right here, supposedly. So I think I'm going to play a little of the song to get us out here in post production. But yeah, could you leave us with that? There's so many little stories within this book that just are a strange turn, you know? Yeah. So Les Claypool, who's in the band Primus, he lives not far from the Bohemian Grove, an Occidental.

California. So he was reading the local newspaper. Again, not a lot of media picked up on the story, but some newspapers in Northern California did. Les Claypool sees this short news article, and he's inspired to write a song about it. So he writes this song, Phantom Patriot, which was on his album in 2006 of Wales and Woe, is the name of the album. And it's just kind of like a news report set to music. You know, he talks about Richard sneaking into the Bohemian Grove and the choruses goes, The Phantom Patriot. But what was really fun was I like harassed his talent manager pretty much.

I just emailed them over and over again for like months and months saying, hey, could you give me some phone time to talk to Les Claypool? I want to ask him about this song. And finally they're like, all right, you can have 10. minutes with less. He's on tour right now with Tool down in Texas. We'll get him on the phone for 10 minutes. And it was a very awkward interview because he was freaked out by Richard. He was like, I'm not, I'm not sure about this. Is this guy going to like show up at one of my shows and try to kill me? And I was like, I don't, I don't think so. I mean. Can't make any promises.

Yeah. But it was, it was cool to have a chance to talk to him. just for a few minutes even. Yeah, yeah, I thought that was a pretty cool little addendum to the story overall. Well, T, I mean, I think Richard would be so proud of what you put together. I mean, this is a guy who struggled for acceptance his whole life. All he wanted was to be heard. And, you know, you can see it in that video at the Bohemian Club. Finally, people were there, like, next to him and support him.

No matter how far out his beliefs were, again, I keep stressing it. There's a person behind all of these. And he just wanted to be listened to. And now we have something that will live eternally about Richard. And I'm sure he would really appreciate that, man. Again, whether you believe in the stuff he did or not. So, hey, it was so good to stretch my muscles tonight and not talk about UFOs for two hours, but to talk about this extremely compelling book that you put together, man.

So I got to thank you for the book, first of all, and also for coming on Somewhere in the Skies. Oh, thanks for having me. This was a great discussion. I was really glad to talk to you about it. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.