Somewhere in the Skies - Blue Book with Michael Avon Oeming

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

On episode 234 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we welcome Michael Avon Oeming. Oeming is a comic book artist and writer, currently working on a comic book series based on the files of Project Blue Book. "Blue Book" will recreate stories of real UFO encounters in comic book form, based on the true-to-life testimonies of UFO witnesses with the goal of not sensationalizing or editorializing those accounts. The first chapters explore the circumstances surrounding the 1961 abduction of Betty and Barney Hill. Oeming will discuss the series, his research process along with writer, James Tynion, and we'll hear about Oeming's other exciting projects both past and present, and why he believes the U.S. Government is getting involved with UFOs once again in a capacity that even outweighs the original Project Blue Book. Read 'Blue Book' at: http://www.readbluebook.com Follow Michael Oeming on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/Oeming Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Somewhere in the Skies Coffee! https://bit.ly/3mIAq2o Order Ryan’s book in paperback, ebook, or audiobook by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Somewhere in the Skies Subreddit: www.reddit.com/r/SomewhereSkiesPod/ Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Copyright © 2021 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up guys, Ryan Sprag here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon. com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Mike, thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. Thanks for having me, man. I'm

really excited to be here. Yeah, I, you know, I've been following your work for a while now. And as soon as I heard this new project you were working on, I just, I knew I had to talk to you. Not only am I a comic book nerd. I'm clearly a UFO nerd, as I'm now learning you are as well. So this is going to be fun, man. We're going to talk all about your new project

Blue Book. Oh, I didn't even mean to do that. Your new Project Blue Book. There we go. Project comma, Blue Book. Yeah, let's get the comma in there. Yeah, yeah. We don't want to get sued or anything by the Air Force. Let's do the origin story, though. If we're going to go to the comic book route, man, What is your Peter Parker moment?

What kind of got you into comics? Yeah. How did it lead you to where you are today as an artist, a writer in the comic book industry? How did you get to where you are today? There we go. You know, first I can say that like the UFO stuff predates my comic book or artistic life. You know, the UFO stuff is actually pretty early on formative for me. It started with my mother and my, and this will tie back in later to Blue Book.

My mother and her sister, who is legally blind, had a UFO sighting. And they had told me about this when I was a little kid. And one of the things they were saying was my aunt, she can't see. So she said, but it was your mother's voice. I knew that she was seeing something extraordinary. And then she knew, like, even without being able to see it, that she was witnessing something that was unusual and not. probably on Earthly, or at least, you know, not normal, like an airplane and that sort of stuff. So early on, with those stories and, like, ghost stories, like my mom and I, we always watch any documentary about that stuff, you know, especially in search of at the time was like the program to catch and reruns and whatnot.

So the UFO thing was super early. And I think that helped my imagination as a kid because let's face, when we're talking about UFO, so much of this stuff is unknown. And a lot of what we're doing is supposition and kind of putting pieces together to try and make sense of all of this stuff. So I think those early conversations helped my brain develop creatively. So that being said that the actual comic book stuff came in probably when I was like 12 or 13. I'd moved from New Jersey back to Texas. I have family in Texas. And even though I was born there, I was raised in Jersey.

And I had a very Jersey kind of attitude and stuff. And then we moved to Texas and everything was different. And I just couldn't assimilate. And I locked myself in my room. And long story short, ended up at a yard sale where we found some comic books. And I was like, okay, I remember these and this is cool. And I just kind of started delve into that world. but then it was when I moved back to Jersey shortly later

I was at a 7-11 and there was this X-Men annual number nine that Art Adams drew and the X-Men go to Asgard and it went from like liking comics and I was tracing stuff and really interested and started reading to going this is what I want to do it was that specific book and I'm not a person who can name off issues of comics and stuff there's there's only a handful that I can and that was so formative on me it was that and then the follow-up issue to that was New Mutants number two, where the new mutants go to Asgard and they're all together and stuff.

And those things, so those comics mixed with mythology because, you know, they were off to see Thor and stuff and Asgard. So those comics got me interested in mythology. And the mythology also came back to the UFO stuff. Like, it's interesting that all, it makes sense that these things influenced me. And that's sort of how I got into the comics and started drawing. Cool. Okay. So you were an artist first. before you started delving into writing as well. Is that correct?

Yeah, definitely, definitely. It was a good place to just be in your own head for hours and days at a time, you know? I know the feeling, man. I mean, I know. Yeah. And, you know, this is going to be small potatoes compared to you. But I remember when I was 1213, I created my own comic book character. He was called The Challenger.

And it was based on my dad used to have a Challenger car. when he was like, you know, a teenager. And I remember seeing photos of him and he looks so cool. He looked like Kelso from that Saturday show. And he had his, his Challenger, Blood Red Car. And I was like, that's a cool comic book hero name. I'm going to give it a try. So I ended up writing like 20 issues of this little comic of the Challenger,

created the whole mythology. And they got tucked away. And I, you know, for years, I was meaning to ask my mom, like, whatever happened to those. And she told me that she accidentally threw them out. So I had that tragic moment of what could have been with the Challenger. But classic story. Same with my comic books.

Like you said, X-Men got me into the world. I remember specifically I was an athlete. You know, baseball was my life and stuff like that. And then one night, QVC, of all things, shopping network was on. And they were doing the like uncanny X-Men, one through. like 20 they were selling them as a as like a lot and I was like what is this and my mom was like a QBC junkie and she's like whoa Ryan's interested in something on there I need to that's what I'll use to relate to my kid you legitimized your your mother's view of your hobby exactly yeah

I wish that happened with UFOs too bad but no that's a whole different journey but yeah I have QVC and my mother to thank and the uncanny X-Men for getting me into it. But wow, I really went on a tangent. This is not my origin. This is you. That's pretty cool. So you started drawing. When did you, did you go to school for, for work or anything like that?

No. I grew up a pretty lower blue class, pretty poor for, for the most part. So, yeah, there wasn't any schooling, but I would go to conventions. and meet other local comic artists in New Jersey. The two guys that I met first was Neil Vokes and Rich Rankin, and they were doing this black and white comic called Eagle. And they were local, so I could be in touch with them and meet them and stuff. And those same sort of circles I met, Adam Hughes,

whose huge legendary comic artist, and he was only one town over for me and like a couple of years older than I was. So we found each other just before he broke in, and we learned from each other, him more teaching me than anything else because even back then he was already stellar even before he was published so those were my schools was was meeting other people and in fact I didn't I didn't finish high school because I was cutting so many days to stay home and draw or I'd be up all night drawing and while I was technically passing my classes

they started getting into this whole attendance thing so so yeah they kicked me out, basically. I was going to have to repeat my junior year. And I gave myself that summer. I was like, I've made some leeway. I've been published already. I was first published when I was like 14. I was sending out what's called inking. So when you see a black and white comic or color comic, the physical line work, that's called inking. And usually there's somebody who draws it in pencil first, and then somebody who goes over an ink to embellish it. And it's it's its own art for him and it's misunderstood as kind of a joke from like Kevin Smith, small rats that inkers are tracers. It's not right. I remember that. And I know Jimmy Church

said that wasn't a real thing. Jimmy Church, inking is a real thing. Yeah. So let's just get that out of the way. I love him to death. But he said that on an interview with you. And I'm like, dude, stop. That's a real job. It's like saying, you know, theater's not a real job. Yeah. But yeah, so I broke in first with that very early on. So I knew I had a chance. And I was like, well, if I don't get a job over the summer, I'll just, I'll, I'll, I'll do the thing. I'll get the GD or suck it up and just repeat the score or whatever.

But I was able to get work and I just went forward and didn't look back. And that's not a path that obviously that I recommend. I don't know how many young people you have listening to your show. I don't recommend that path. But sometimes when you have a passion feels like a really, it's not it's not the right word even like you find a path in life

and you just know nothing should move you off of that path and this is what you're going to do so once I really knew that this was all that I had for me was comics and drawing it was a singular force for me I quit playing sports

I stopped hanging out with friends I didn't party I was just literally just drawing constantly and I was just completely completely and utterly focused on it, you know, even to this day, you know, other things in my life kind of have to make room for the art first. And that's not always great, but it's something that I've accepted about myself. Yeah, it's a sacrifice a lot of artists make. And if it's going to be

your living, I completely understand that. I mean, well, I got to ask you this. Do you, do you remember the first comic you ever read? It's really weird. It was in that little town that I grew up in board in town it was this old colonial town and there was a barber there with this italian guy thick italian accent still even though he's like in his 70s and uh like he was the town barber and i remember specifically as a kid going and like sitting in this really old building where it had super super high ceilings and what is that that kind of like engraving on the ceilings i forget what it's called uh but they're all up on the roof uh yeah yeah it was like from the late 1800s or early 1900s.

And I remember sitting in a chair and looking to the side of me, and I must have been five or six, and I saw Spider-Man. And even though I couldn't read it, I understood what it was because I was watching this old show called The Electric Company, which had these skits of live-action

Spider-Man. And they were really goofy, and they're fun to watch on YouTube. Morgan Freeman was in some of them and stuff. But that's the thing I remember. So I don't remember that specific issue, but I remember that's when it first really got on my radar. But it wasn't until that moved to Texas that I really delved into it. And I think those first books I picked up were

there was a couple like Sergeant Rocks and one of them was Peter Parker spectacular Spider-Man. Yeah, it might be fun to track them down and to have them again. I can't tell you exactly what it was that drew me in. I think there was just, I was just primed for certain things. Like my mother, drew and not to get too deep or too much TMI stuff but my mom had a drinking problem so she was a hardcore alcoholic and so for years she couldn't live with us while she was getting better but she would write me letters and and she handled all that stuff she got through it we got back together it was great but she would write me letters and draw so that sense of like the my world was basically waiting for my mother you know waiting for her to get better and I'd get

these letters. So there was something about drawing that was emotional to me. That was very personal. And then with the UFO and mythology kind of stuff, you know, and paranormal talk around the house, all of these things primed themselves, I think, so that it made sense that comics called me. It was very

genre laid and also very much, you know, like Marvel's old what if comic. That's kind of the whole fringe field. Like, there's not many of us that day. This is the answer. This is exactly what it is. We know. exactly what's going on. Most of this is like deep dive thought experiments. Well, what if?

Like ancient aliens was so great when it started because it began with von Donnickens' what if questions, right? Like he wasn't like, aliens built a pyramid. These are landing strips for spaceships. He was saying what if, right? And they kind of lost their track on there. Now I meet people who will bring up ancient aliens and he talk about it like it's history or fact and that's scary. right? So I think all that what if question is what drives a lot of us. And not in a frivolous way, but it's like a what if because there are these things that you can't explain. So what if it's this or what if it's that? So I think all those things were primers for me to become a comic artist and then to just be really entrenched in this UFO fringe paranormal world. Wow. That's cool, man. There's

there's so much that led up to what you're doing today and kind of, you know, the bulk of what we'll be talking about today, your interest in UFOs and how you've now brought that to life. But I got to ask you about a few of your projects before we get there. Again, my listeners, they're here for UFOs, but we'll get there, guys, I promise. But I am here to talk to Michael, the comic book artist first. And I saw that you worked on Highlander. I was the biggest closeted Highlander, the series fans, dude like I would get the catalog I'd order the swords you know all the merch

and I would write you know little fan fix about Duncan and in living throughout the centuries blah blah blah so I got to ask what was it like working on Highlander of all things which I believe might be getting a resurgence soon I could be wrong but yeah what was it like working with the

the Immortals I'm a huge Highlander fan I love the first film frustrated by all the other films TV show was great, or at least, you know, it had his moments. And working on the comic was interesting. Like, it really just came down to the covers for the most part. It's a little insidery baseball, but like the people who own the copyrights, who own the property aren't the same people who literally created it.

So I think that's why you get a lot of the sort of mixed messaging stuff. like they say that the television show is the same continuity as the first film. I can't understand how that works. Right. But they insist on it, you know, so it made writing tricky and hard. And in the end, I didn't. You know, but I got to do a bunch of covers and just living in that world was great. I got to draw both Duncan and Christopher Lambert's character.

I'm forgetting on him. Yeah, and I still love Highlander to this day. It's bizarre. It's strange. It's completely unique, you know. Like that's the stuff. Anybody you want to get into Highlander, like there's nothing else like it. There just isn't.

Yeah, where do you find, yeah, where do you find like a sci-fi fantasy kind of time travel-esque? Yep. I can't really think of anything, to be honest, unless you're, yeah, quantum leap routers. Because they were smart enough to not try and explain everything. That's where it all holds the part, right? And the same thing with most of the things that we love, whether it's the Matrix or Star Wars. Wars, as soon as you start to get into MediCorpsians or you have a KFC guy explaining

you everything, it takes away that magic. Whereas, like, in Ireland, they would say it in the freaking song. It's a kind of magic. And that's kind of all you need it. You know? Just accept it. Yeah. Doth protest too much

if Shakespeare has taught us anything. Well, okay, so I love that insider kind of stuff of, you know, the different companies, the different properties and whatnot. What is it like as an artist or a writer hopping from company to company, like whether it's Marvel or DC, IDW,

all of them. There's so many out there. And I would imagine, you know, working at Marvel is a little different than working at like image comics, like in terms of like what liberties you have and stuff like that. So what is it kind of like a bipolar thing jumping from company to, how does that work?

Like I guess that's kind of my question. Does Marvel hire you to work? on a property and that's it? Like you're just there for that property? Or yeah, maybe demystify a little of that for me if you don't mind, Michael. All the companies are fairly wildly different.

You know, Marvel and DC are huge company owned by company, I mean, mega corporations. You know, Disney owns Marvel, Warner Bros. owns DC. And they're great because they have all the classic characters,

Superman, Spider-Man, Captain America, and all that stuff. And as a freelance artist, I like working for them because there's a guaranteed page rate up front. A page rate means how much you're paid per page that you draw versus creator-owned work is largely a royalty-based payment, meaning if it does well, you'll get paid. If it does well, you'll make money. And that could be anywhere from covering the cost of making money. it in the first place to a profit you know but you don't know it's such a it's such a role of the dice even the best work that i've done that's like creator own work might not be seen

versus something that's kind of mediocre work for higher stuff gets seen by a lot of people and vice versa there's no there's no guarantees to any of it there's no real um path to take um and as far as you know and i i actually enjoy working for all them i love work for higher stuff. I love doing like we're doing a world of Krypton is my next work for hire thing. So it's the story of what happens to Krypton in Superbans world before it blows up. Oh wow, cool. And you know there are times I can kind of look at like like film. This is a horrible analogy because it's a little whatever. But you know you do a big blockbuster thing so that you can make your indie films. You know, it's like a comic film like that for me.

Like I enjoy working for Marvel and DC for the purposes of working on those big characters, but it also helps signal boost the smaller stuff I'm doing, like Project Blue Book or Galaxy Fannis or any of that. I'm also, as you could tell from the way I speak, I'm a multitasker probably because of some sense of ADHD. I'm not sure, but I don't do one project at time. I'm always working on several projects at once. some of them like the one we just announced this week galaxy of madness which is a patreon comic so you don't need to go to a comic store you go to patreon and look up galaxy of madness and you'll go find it um way, I forget the point was. Oh, no, just hopped.

Like you said, multitasking, yeah. I had started working on that with our partners, like, almost a year ago, maybe more. And I just work on stuff and let it build until I can release it. So sometimes it seems like I'm doing six things at once, but it's just because I've got a backlog of work. I'm creating because I'm crazy by doing the work before knowing if I'm getting paid or not. It's like constantly for you. You like constantly writing specs.

Oh my God, yeah. No, I told, well, and that's such a good point and kind of, you know, shows the, the industries overall of, it's a lot of hurry up and waiting, you know, you'll create the thing. And then it could sit there for 10 years. You know, I've sold, I've sold options and in screenplays to companies years and years ago. But it doesn't mean they're going to make the movie. They just own, own the rights to make it, which is nice. Like, yeah, as a business person, it's, great. Like I made my money. Cool. But of course, as the, they're great. But of course, we want to see these things come to fruition. But I would say in these businesses, more than not, they don't. So when you finally do get something made, it's all that more special. And I think you're right. Sort of that street cred. You know, you do signal boost from these big companies to then show people your other work. That's how I found your work and many other comic book writers as well. your wife included. And I think that's really cool, like how you've navigated all of this.

And now you're working on a project that you're really passionate about when it comes to UFOs. But we're almost there, I promise. We're going to get to Blue Book. My last kind of comic bookie industry question, like Powers and Bulletproof Monk. These were two of your creations and things you worked on that came to life in different mediums. And I'd love to hear. I just had one of my first play adapted into a feature film. And it was, I can tell you, it was an interesting experience.

And finally, it's going to see the light of day. But that's a story for another time. Oh, thank you. Thank you. But how was that for you? You know, when they came to you with these ideas and adaptations, I know they're very challenging. Yeah. How did those two projects come to be in terms of the TV show and the movie?

Bulletproof Monk was interested as far as, like, it means other writer of Brett Lewis, we helped create a product that was already kind of brought to us. Like they had this idea of that the title, Bulletproof Monk, which was like awesome. Like it was just sometimes a title can sell itself. And they, this sounds so backwards, but sometimes it's how inspiration works. They had the title first, and then they talked to Brett about, like,

well, what can this mean? You know, and I think they had a vaguely martiality idea behind it. And then largely Brett built it out through there. And together, we figured out the world and we drew the three issues of the comic. It was then optioned by John Wu, or not by John Wu,

it was an optioned by a company or whatever, and then John Wu was the direct, director on it. And then the story that Bulletproof Monk became on screen really had nothing to do with the comic or very little to do with the comic. It was largely reimagined, which happens quite a bit. There's still some of the same set pieces, but really it was just a very different thing. But it was still just really cool to see happen, and it was exciting. Then many, many years later, Powers, which is a comic that me and Brian Bendis had created back in like 2000. We've been doing that consistently for about 15 to 20, well, 20 years.

We just wrapped it up with this big graphic novel. And, yeah, we got options through Sony, and they were developing television shows to their PlayStation platform. So we were the first of this early streaming experiments. We got two seasons out of it. We were very much involved. Brian was one of the headwriters, but there was still, like, a lot of stuff that's either out of your control or, there's a goodwill between you and the studios and the writers that like as you know like a play is not a movie like there's a lot of a crossover the then diagram's almost a circle but it's not there there are slight differences and the same way with going from the comic book to the television show so you have faith in your your financial partners and the studios to let it be the thing that it needs to be on its own it doesn't need to be like sin city which was a great experiment where it's just literally the comic to a film.

We wanted to grow to be its own. And then sometimes the wheels will fall off. And then kind of try to, you know, get back on top of that. I think by the second season, we realized how much freedom, how loose we were with our creation and then tightened it back up. The whole thing was a wild ride because, you know, it was life-changing. It was this extra level of career thing.

It was, but it was also experimental with the early stream. and it was on a specific physical platform that being PlayStation and stuff. So, like, yeah, we got two seasons and it was awesome, but it's just, it's just a different world, you know, and all of your expectations change and stuff. And I've had a lot of ass kicking in Hollywood stuff

where I've gotten the things options, or we had negotiations for options that would go on over a year, and then it just doesn't come to fruition. And then you realize, well, I spent a year where three days a week, you're on a phone with somebody, you talk about something that doesn't turn into anything,

which is great because then when other things come around. So at this point, I'm also optioning something that's fairly old. And we're in the middle of it right now. But I'm not thinking about it every day. I'm not sitting here going like, oh, my God, this is going to be another TV show. Who are they going to cast? I wonder what this is going to be. Because I've been on the roller coaster up and down so many times,

it's just like every little thing that happens, like we just got a showrunner or director attached to it. And it's like, I'll celebrate that. But I'm not even thinking about, like, you know, is it going to air?

What station? Who's going to star in it? Like you just take every little step at a time. Yeah. The upside, the bad stuff is it helps center you out in different ways, you know? Yeah,

there's absolutely. Exactly. It's always a learning process. I know for me, it's like until that, contract is signed or, you know, they're saying action. Like, I'll believe it when I see it. So I totally get it, man. Yeah, I can't wait to talk to about that.

Yeah, for sure. I know. We'll have to do a whole other interview on that. Well, let's fast forward to today and one of the new projects you're working on. We'll get to the other one later in the conversation, but is Blue Book. Now, of course, all of my listeners are very familiar with Project Blue Book, and we just had the television show not too long ago. And I actually have a question from the creator of the TV show, an exclusive question for you that he sent in. But we'll get there. How did this come to be? I got to ask, how did Project, excuse me, how did Blue Book come to be?

And yeah, what made you guys decide you wanted to do this? your co-creative partner. And yeah, tell us a little about the team behind Blue Book, if you don't mind. Okay. So James Tinian is a huge writer within comics. He's been writing Batman for several years. He has a comic that I guarantee most of your viewers will want to get their hands on called the Department of Truth.

The concept behind it is. It really is he figured out how to do modern-day X-Files without doing any of the X-Files, imitation stuff or anything. which is that basically, and we talk about this within our community, that belief, enough belief can kind of create its own reality or create a reality, almost a Tulpa-like thing. So in his book, if enough people start believing in something, whether it's a conspiracy like JFK or Bigfoot or UFOs, in those areas where these people are gathering and talking about these things, these phenomena actually start to happen. So there's literally a department in the government who decides what to stop and what to let go on. It's called the Department of Truth. And it's a great comic.

It covers Bigfoot, UFO stuff, all of this. And it's just amazing. And just one day, either I asked him if I could do a cover for him or he asked if I would do a cover. And I think just through being on Twitter and stuff, like he saw or knew my interest in UFOs in weirdness. And then there's this large company called Substack, which is like a newsletter platform kind of thing. a lot of journalists are on it and stuff. And they basically decided that they wanted to do comics through their platform and they have these grants.

So they approached James about it. And this was an opportunity to do a comic that you couldn't typically do in a Combook store. So like Project Blue Book is such the way we wanted to do anyway, which is to tell a very straightforward, as real as possible, without adding any speculation or any extra facts or anything like that. Just tell it as straightforward as possible. That would be too hard of a sell in mainstream comics. But on a platform like this, it would totally work.

And it would totally work in the way that we both thought of in our head immediately, which is kind of black and white with this singular blue tone. And that's how it started. It was just these weird opportunities that, you know, James being offered a grant that could pay for this kind of thing up front so that like we know we'll make a living doing it versus everything else was a giant like gamble um and we both like James has the same interest as I do in this stuff and like immediately within the first couple sentence we had the whole idea laid out I had been one to do like sort of journalistic comics of UFO reports for a long time um and I just

didn't know how to make it happen and stuff and I kind of talked to Jimmy a little bit about it um that, you know, there's some other people, some known people I was trying to talk to about it, but it's hard. And anyway, it just, it just created these circumstances where this could happen. So what we want to do is not all these stories are our Blue Book specifically, but we're using Blue Book as like a theme. And starting from there is like, it's sort of our lighthouse, you know, so it'll be non-blue book cases that are there. But obviously, this is the, the atmosphere in which we're telling it. And we chose Barney and Betty Hill to do first because it's one of the best stories. It's your first modern day abduction stuff.

It's where we get a lot of our language from about this subject. And yeah, we're going to tell the whole thing in about 80 pages. It's 20 pages every month. And yeah, I think that's the basics of it. Yeah. So we're going to just try and take the facts and just tell the story straightforward in a compelling way. Yeah. And again, that's what kind of sold me.

when I first heard about it was the accuracy in which you guys want to portray this, because that's what we, you know, we hope and pray for in this field is accuracy and credibility and legitimacy. And, you know, a lot of the, the, I wouldn't say hate,

but the criticism of the history channel television show was how off the rails it went in terms of accuracy and everything. And that's a whole other beast. Like, yeah, I've been there with David O'Leary, the creator. I've had him on a few times.

And when you're dealing with something like, a huge company at the helm, like, it's going to happen. If I was, I would have approached it the same way. It's television, you know, because otherwise it's a documentary. Exactly. That's what I tried to stress. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, too, but it's a different path. It's kind of like in comics, you know, whenever we announce something that's digital, people immediately like, well, when is it coming to print?

It's like, well, one thing at a time, you know, like there are different things, you know, And a documentary is different than, you know, like, I don't know how interesting Blue Book could be straightforward. Right. It could be done. I'm not sure narratively how you really carry that out, but that's a whole other thing. Well, and then, you know, there's always an entertainment aspect to all of this. Like, that's, it's how you engage an audience to then educate them on something. And I think you guys did.

I've read the first two chapters that you sent to me. You are so nice enough to send. And you can see a little bit of your art in the background here on the YouTube version of our show. But that's not doing any justice. It's beautiful, man. Like this sort of limited colors and just the style. It reminded me somewhat of your work with Dick Tracy in some respects as well. But tell me a little about how you decided to go with this style,

which I think is spot on for something like Project Blue Book. What made you want to go with what you did? And maybe, yeah, tell us a little about the style, if you don't mind. So as you can tell, I'm wearing Coke bottles on my face right now, these giant glasses where my eyes are huge. It's because as I've gotten older, like, you know, sitting over the desk like that has taken its toll on me, you know. So most of the work that I've done in the past, I know, four years has mostly been digital.

which means I'm working on a computer screen where I can get in there and I can control the lines 120%, 100%. And the line work is much finer and stuff. But I miss drawing what's called analog, and that's just pen, paper, and brush, you know, and you get chunk of your lines out of it. It's just a slightly different quality. The closest I could explain it is, like, if you're an audio person, you can tell the difference between something that's digital and something that's on an album or something, you know. So I was really, really hungry to do something analog again.

And this is a perfect opportunity because, you know, it wouldn't involve too many crowd scenes, which is a lot of people, a lot of detail, or like fight scenes of people jumping off of exploding buildings and ridiculousness that we get to do in comics. Usually takes a lot of detail on intense lines. But here, the kind of stories we're going to be telling, they're largely character-based people talking,

people driving, people eating, people pointing at the sky. stuff. So it becomes pure storytelling. You know, and I almost look at it, like I try to tell each page, can you kind of tell what's going on or come to your own conclusions about what's going on without the dialogue, which in these stories where you're got the first chapter is, it's largely Betty and Barney just driving and pulling over, you know, and looking at this crazy thing. So I had to come up with the language like, well, how do I make this interesting? Because we don't want to add stuff. We didn't want to turn the car chase scene

from the UFO into a chase scene, where tires are squealing around corners and stuff like that. But I still was figuring out, how do I tell that in an interesting way? So there's a lot of angular shots looking through branches at their cars, they're driving. There's a lot of reflections of the UFO on the car, but not seeing the car itself.

So what visual language could I use to show that they're being stalked kind of? That was the feeling. that Barney specifically had, that they were being stalked and hunted. So those are the choices I'm making as well as realizing that the platform is largely for non-comic book readers. Like, I'd be very happy for all of my readers to follow Blue Book and James' readers to follow Blue Book.

But we want, as your audience, to read it. You know, we want Jimmy's audience. We want the UFO community to read it. So I'm specifically and James and our other. Greg in our letter, we're all, Aditya, we're all trying to tell this in a way for people who don't read comics. So there's not a lot of crazy panel layouts. I'm keeping it super simple, so nobody gets lost. And those are the compasses that we're taking. And the style just comes from, again, getting to go back to my roots of like just plopping down thick, chunky brush lines for noir scenes.

And like using the idea of noir and horror lighting to empathic. besides the scariness and the emotional heights that these characters are going through. And then that's accomplice in it. Like really, the whole thing is just stripped down to its most basic bare essential stuff. And that's making it for a better creative experience. And I think for probably for a better reading experience, too. Sometimes the more is better, less is more, always, man. If there's anything I've learned in writing as well, especially for movies.

It's what is the saying? It's showing, not telling. Which as a playwright, my job was always the opposite. It's telling and not showing. So it's hard. And like you said, like this isn't, you know, hopefully a lot of the followers of your work will come over to Blue Book. But it's made, you know, as an homage to the people who worked on Blue Book for a community who's been made fun of their whole lives for believing in this stuff. just now in 2021 is getting, you know, the legitimacy it finally deserves.

But I think that's, that's constantly going to my mind as I'm drawing them. Betty and Barney Hill were real people, you know, and often when we, even when we talk about it on like podcasts and stuff, you kind of, I don't want to say forget, but like, yeah, you do forget the real, real people. So like, the things that they were going through, who they were at the time, how they were formed as a, as a woman and a black man. in the 60s, that means they grew up in the 40s. You know?

So you take all of this stuff into account. And once you read the books about them and you know, they had two different sort of directions for this. Betty, I don't think she was, I don't believe she manufactured anything. I don't believe she exaggerate anything. But as this started to happen to her, she was open to it.

She was open to the experience. she was kind of excited about the experience, I think. She had a huge mountain level of curiosity. Barney wanted it all to end immediately. The book captured is called captured because when he saw the ship that he thought was coming near him, he's running to his wife yelling, they're going to capture us.

Now, to stay those words, those are specific words. run Betty, it's not, we got to get out of here. They're going to capture us. There's a psychological underlining there that you as a writer at that, like, you would write it. Not every character would say that. Specific characters would say that for specific reasons. So like Barney was tortured by this whole thing. So there is a huge, I feel a huge responsibilities. I'm drawing this to protect Barney so that he doesn't come off. Like, like he's trying to be labeled. And a lot of those psychologists and people at the time tried to

say basically that he was mentally inferior to Betty and that Benny was influencing him through his dreams or her dreams to believe the same thing that she like it's so insulting it's so demeaning and the way she was also like the the questions that the therapists were asking of them were so insulting to anybody it was brutal yeah it's a lot that they went through so that I'm carrying a lot of that when I'm drawing it and it also helps that like Betty just looks like my aunt, somebody who helped raise me. So like when I'm dressing her, when I don't have reference, I'm thinking of the same kind of clothing. So the same kind of, she had the same that I hate to put this. There was like this failed perm thing that that was going on for

like the 40s to like the early 80s. And my aunt had the same hair, right? So like it's, it's this wonderful thing where like I'm connecting to them as people and I'm connecting them through my own experiences of families as I'm drawing them. I'm not sure where that was all going, but I mean, that's why I'm dealing a lot. Right. And I love hearing that, man, because like my, my, I guess, role in the UFO field is I focus on the people who have experiences, not how big was the craft, like, what time. Like, yeah, that's cool. Data's great. It's great for investigators. It's great for these, like, military dudes who are trying to assess what's going on. But for me, it's always come back to the Bettys and the Barneys. Like, what did you experience?

How did? Because it's different for everyone. I had a case that I personally went out to investigate in Michigan where a, I had a mother and daughter. They both saw a triangular UFO above their home. And they had completely different experiences, man. The mother said it was silent and it was black. The daughter said it was unbearably loud. She was like covering her ears and the craft was white.

So you're just like, every person. is going to experience these things differently. And I think that's, it's so cool that you picked up on that with what Barney Hill said, we're going to be captured. Whereas she was probably like, oh, let's do this. Like this is going to be a crazy learning experience. She was on the craft, like asking the aliens questions, stuff like that. Meanwhile, like, Barney's effing terrified if you listen to those regression tapes.

Yes, go on. She's telling you. And he's looking at me. What did he tell you? Stay there and keep looking. Just keep looking and stay there and just keep looking. Just keep looking. Just keep looking.

Could you hear he tell you? Oh, I gotta pull these binoculars away from my eyes. Because if I don't, I'll just keep staying there. Could you hear him tell you this? Oh, no, he didn't say it. You felt he said it. I know. You know he doesn't.

Just there, yeah. Just stay there. He's saying to me. All right. I'll take it my head. All right. Pull the binoculars away. God, give me a stress.

All right. Pull him down. Run! Pull these menoplas down. It's God. It says, like God. Give me a chance. I got to get away.

Oh. Oh. Babe. Right. All right. All right. I can't get away, calm down.

I'm driving. I'm going to get away. I can't even imagine what that would have done to their relationship with this mother and daughter in Michigan, man. He lived very long. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I can't even imagine.

He died in his like early 40s, or early or mid 40s, something like that, you know. Yeah, I'm convinced. It's unfortunate. And like that story about my, my aunt and mom when they saw something, that emotional thing, that my aunt reacted to. I think that's what hooked me into these things. So I've never had an experience. And my wife and I, we've actively gone out.

We've been to Joshua Tree for contacting the desert the first year. And we'll go stargazing, hope we'll see something. We've never seen anything. But the people that I've talked to, there are people in my life who I trust. I would trust with my life who have seen things. That's why I'm still here. As far as I'm concerned, there's no smoking gun, right, for me anyway. but there are people's experiences who are like, why would they lie about this?

There are some people who would lie or some people who are, there's all sorts of reasons, right? But we all know people in our lives who just wouldn't make something like that up. So whatever it is, people are experiencing something, people I trust. And that's why I'm still here is there is that human aspect of it. Because unfortunately, like we were talking about that mother and daughter having completely different experiences, the older I get, the more I think that this is less a physical, predictable thing and maybe that's part of it, but there seems to be some sort of consciousness thing. I don't know, you know, and I don't want to get, you know, you just get into such

speculation land there, but there are more and more it seems to be something along those lines as opposed to specifically Zeta reticuli people coming in a nuts and bulk ship or something, which may also be happening. I don't know. Right. It might be one small sliver of the overall picture. I'm with you, man. Like, yeah, we're kind of, living in age now of, you know, I guess a new age, as the kind of new age movement would say,

of this having a lot more to do with consciousness. It's a road that I've kind of tippy-toed on, but I haven't, like, gone down the road yet, but... A good friend of mine, you know, he has a Christian background, and like, so he's always seen the UFO community, the UFO phenomenon as, you know,

this larger spiritual thing, you know, and I always pushed against that. And I was like, no, these are like aliens or something or whatever. And well, like, I don't see eye to eye exactly on that point of view. The then diagram is almost the same. Like, I'm kind of thinking that these are more like ultra-dimensional creatures or ultra-dimensional experiences rather than so much physical from another planet over or another star system. And when you think about that, like those are just sort of metaphors like angels and demons versus, you know,

Yeah. Ultra, you know, dimensional beings who have different motivations, you know, it's sort of just your point of view. Like, I fought against that for the longest time. And now I'm like, well, why is it when people have UFO experiences? They start having paranormal experiences afterwards. You know, part of the parts of the Betty Barney Hill stories is not reported often is they had poltergeist activity after their encounters.

And then people helping them investigate their encounters also started getting. those tag-along phenomenon that's been happening. Like you get with like Skinwalker Ranch is probably the most, you know, extreme example of that. But why is that happening? You know, you know, those should be two different things. Like, like poltergeist activity and UFO activity shouldn't have to follow each other, but they seem to.

Right. That's such a good point. I think, you know, and we're hearing that more and more. this mother and daughter had the same experience, poltergeist activity after trying to give a UFO event. Their electricity was on the fritz. An electrician came out to fix it. He sees a UFO over the house.

Like, dude, it's crazy. Like, I got to get you, I got to get you that case for a, for a later, later one for Blue Book. But you're right. I think when you're dealing with such amorphous phenomena, like everyone's going to kind of bend it and mold it to their own, whatever, spiritual lens or psychological lens.

what have you. And that's why when anyone ever comes to me, it says, do you believe in UFOs? I'm like, it's, belief is immediately going down religion territory. And that's not what this is about for me. Like, I want to hear the stories. I'm compelled by the stories,

the way people interpret things. And then others just want the facts, ma'am. Like, I totally get that. But when you bring belief into it, that's, that's tough. Because then you're dealing with religion. And so many people have come to me, man, and been like, it's demonic, it's angelic, it's all dimensional like you mentioned. So who knows, who really knows?

But I think that's what kind of keeps us going, is asking those Marvel what ifs, right? Yeah, we keep asking what ifs because there's all these like touchstones to real actual things, you know, that's the people we trust or documents we've seen or something and it's like, you know, there's a reason we keep asking. Yeah, thanks Jacques Valet. He ruined everything. Seriously. Yeah. Well, let's

I guess let's go back to Blue Book in terms of what you guys are covering. You mentioned Betty and Barney Hill 80 pages. That's that is awesome. First of all, I can't wait to see where your whole art goes with that. What's up, guys? Ryan dropping in to wish you all of very happy Halloween season.

And what better way to celebrate than with Jim Harold's Campfire podcast? With over 500 episodes of Campfire, you'll hear stories that will bend your reality and leave you truly spooked. The concept is pretty simple. Jim talks to regular folks about strange stuff that happens to them.

And yes, that includes UFOs and UAPs, along with cryptids and, of course, ghosts. Now, not all the stories are horrifying. Some are pretty heartwarming, like a visit from a past loved one, or a peaceful near-death experience. regardless, they are true and fascinating stories, as told by ordinary people who've had extraordinary experiences. So, pull up a log and tune in to Jim Harold's Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to somewhere in the skies. And remember, stay spooky. David O'Leary, like I mentioned, the creator of the Project Blue Book series, he wanted to know, because for him, with the TV, show, it was a big challenge because you're dealing with like, you know, a chronological program

that actually existed that investigated UFOs. But they had to tell a story. They had to create an arc. So sometimes they took a case from 1950 and one from 1960 and they ran in tandem, you know, chronologically on the show. So he wants to know what, how did you guys decide to start with Betty of Barney Hill? and how are you going to go about what you're going to focus on moving forward? I know it's still really early in the creative process for you guys.

But yeah, he wants to know, like, what made you want to focus on certain things? Well, first, I'd like to thank David just for asking a question. You know, when the show first came out, I even did a drawing of forgetting the actor's name, who was playing Heineck. I did a picture of him with my flashlight and posted it out for the creators because I was just excited. I should mention I made this shirt I love that

I think it was hiding the whole the whole interview yeah dude this is my my highest selling t-shirt in my shop so I've got David to thank and pretty soon I have you guys to thank it's yeah sorry to interrupt

the production quality of the show like it was just great to watch and I think that the mixing and matching of history like that was a perfect way to do it because you know, while, you know, some of us might get like, oh, whoa, whoa, that's not the order. We have to remember, this is more for people who aren't into this than it actually is for us who are. Right.

And it's, and that becomes a doorway for people to go, like, what? There was this, like, owl-looking thing in the woods after this UFO crash and then they'll start looking into stuff. And then, you know, like Richard Dolan got into this because he was looking at historical documents and, like, military spending. That's what got hit him into this. So why not a TV show? So anyway, with Betty and Barney Hill, we decided first with that because it is the, you know, sort of pinnacle of like where all of this started, all of our language came from it. Our first experience is talking about it's not really changed that that narrative hasn't changed

wildly since then. And that was sort of the reasons. And it was just bulletproof case. You know, why would they make this up? the claims that they wanted to make up a story just don't make sense. One from a safety point of view when you're in the 1960s, early 1960s, a mixed couple working with social workers and NAPA, CPS, you're just a target for bad shit to happen. You know, you don't want to put yourself out there.

Barney could have lost his job. Who wants to trust a mailman who sees aliens? You know, Betty could have lost her work because of the same stuff. So even talking about this And then what did they get out of it? They got like a book deal And the book deal like I think I was reading about it In one of the books later

Like yeah they made some money off it But it wasn't life changing money They got like new furniture They made sure that the writers Who helped them write the book Was also part of the finances Of the television show that got made later The film

You know so like it wasn't like a cash cow For them in any way There's no reasons for them to make any bit up So these were the Some of the reason why like this was the place to start kind of where the real history of it begins. And this is just this great case. And there's this stuff like the star thing,

you know, her figuring out the constellation before. Yeah. Star map. Yeah. And then, you know, so, so that'll be our first big statement about it. The next story or two are going to be shorter. And so, you know, that way we can cover some other stuff really quickly

before we go on to a third or fourth story. It'll also be really big. This way you get a huge meal now. I'll get these little meals later. and then another big meal. And we haven't decided specifically which cases, but there's giant ones. We'll definitely do Rendell Shum.

You know, we'll definitely do like Travis Walton, maybe get to talk to him. There's so many great cases. Yeah, there's a lot to cover. And they won't all be specifically Blue Book, but they'll be around this subject. Awesome, man.

Hey, anytime anyone puts Rendlesham into anything, I'm happy. That's probably my favorite case personally. I wrote a play about it. Actually, I'll have to share that with you. Yeah, yeah, I was working on a screenplay, which is still in the works, but you know

how all that goes. Things get a shell, blah, blah, blah. But it's also another bulletproof case. I mean, when you have government files saying that John, I'm forgetting his last name, had health problems. Specifically because he was exposed to

was did they use a term UAP or they used some other term that they they I believe what they said was radiation caused by a UFO or craft of unknown origin they used a term that didn't say exactly what it was but through other terminology that's what it meant

right and like to get his medical records and to have that on there like okay so that came from a lighthouse that he confused for a freaking lighthouse you know Right. They're, that recording, you know, of walking up to this object. I mean, and there's so much evidence, man, people. This is all amazing stuff.

Yep, exactly. Exactly. Well, that's my next question for you. What are some of your favorite cases in UFO lore? Anyone's really stand out to you or ones you find most compelling? It just, it keeps changing over the years. Yeah. You know, one of the things I'll say is, is there are patterns that happen in our community, you know, whether it's like right now that, that, that, that, the stance of, was it the Air Force or Department of Defense, like literally saying there are things in our sky that we're not sure what they are.

And like a lot of us are going around circles, they finally said something like that. It wasn't much. It wasn't as much to be wanted, but they have said something. But they said this before. this is all that we've been through all of this before after blue book there were several other projects and they all ended up saying the same stuff you know that yeah the government's already said that there's stuff in the sky and there's a small percentage they can't figure out you know like so none of this is new so and and then often things just take time for truth to come out about it so there's a time test that has to go so all of the stuff happening now with the ua p stuff and the videos i don't think we'll really know much about it for another 10 years. Like we need time for things to sit in it. The way the alien autopsy film

developed over the years, the way Area 51 stories developed over the years. The anacama, anacama, comma, I'm saying that. Oh yeah, the little skeleton guy, yeah. I couldn't get excited about any of that.

Not to just throw it off immediately, but it's like, you just wait, wait. These things have a life of their own. So that's a long way of saying. It's that need it. Like my favorite story in the past is not my favorite story now. Gotcha. Now it is all that Jack Malay stuff. Like things are just too weird and like the experiences that people are having with UFOs and alien contact are so inconsistent. Even with even to that person that it's happening to, it just seems like it's more of

a force in the universe that is messing with us. Like, even to just mess with you to question why you keep pursuing this thing and it'll drive you nuts, you know, like it's a maze with no end. And it seems to be designed that way. I mean, maybe that's just an extra layer of paranoia that I have. But every time I hear these stories, they don't really ever go anywhere. You know, people who have direct contact who clearly aren't making stuff up. like some people are clearly making stuff up.

It still just doesn't make sense. The end game never makes sense. Look all the alien abduction stories we had about genetics in the 80s and 90s. And weren't we all convinced that that's why abductions were happening? Abductions were happening because they were, they're cloning technology or that they're living so long that their DNA isn't like working anymore. So they were taking us to do experiments to figure themselves out more. but now what we know about DNA

like I want your DNA dude I don't have to kidnap you and put you in a van and like jamming you with all kinds of stuff I just go in your apartment when you're gone and I get your DNA I can freaking clone you you know yeah so now all of a sudden I look back

and I'm like like I trust Whitley Streeper's story but why does it why would they need to take DNA from him physically or anybody yeah and he's come to the conclusion too like as I listened to him once or twice I just gotten older.

He's gone to it. It's all Jack Villet territory, you know. And he used to be very nuts and bolts. They all go there. The longer you're around this, the less nuts and bolts it feels. And the more it feels like, like my armchair theory, not one that I'm married to or believe is happening, but like a maybe is that this is something like,

if you take a, it's just stuff we don't know. It could be very scientific. It could be like, This is a combination of something to do with our consciousness and magnetic waves that feedback, like a biofeedback thing, but into our minds instead of our body. You know, like, I know how fruity that sounds, but like I, you know, it makes as much sense as anything else. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just viable, man, to be honest.

Yeah, yeah. Well, man, we could take this in so many different ways. But I think what it really boils down to is, you're right. There's a tricksterish nature to all of this that like whatever the phenomena is or represents where it comes from, when it comes from. It's messing with us. It's like some big performance art piece. I kind of look at it as like. It's what it feels like.

Yeah. Maybe that's the playwright coming out in me. But I do feel like this is some big art project. Just kind of being played out to see how we react and stuff. But that's scary too, because you're having these UFO events where, like, they're being seen over nuclear bases and stuff like that. Or, like, pilots chasing after them and some even crashing at times and dying. So, like, there is a stake to it, even if it is just messing with us. Like, look at the TikTok.

Like, what if they had actual weapons during that, man? That's the stuff that kind of scares me. Yeah. And I don't discount the physical craft stuff as a possibility, too. or maybe that's in there in the mix. I also think it makes a lot of sense that maybe the TikTok stuff that we're seeing, like the idea that it's us in the future

coming back to look at ourselves statistically makes more sense than aliens or some consciousness thing that we don't know because you only need to really make one supposition is that we don't blow ourselves up for the next 5,000 years and we keep going. Our scientific knowledge slowly gets higher and higher.

We would get to the point where we could send something back in time to look at ourselves. So that's that's easier to handle than anything else. I don't know that that's what's happening at all. But again, there's things that point to it

that makes sense. But then there's all these other things that don't make sense. You know, the consciousness, the calling of UFOs for your consciousness. Like, I'm not saying that doesn't happen. You know, I think some people are having that happen, but that just brings a lot more questions.

A lot more questions. I know. It's just when we think we found one answer, like something sets it back another 50 questions. And that's kind of, again, the frustrating thing in euphology. So I'm with the man. Hey, us from the future, I'm all about it. That's kind of where I'm at right now where I'm leaning towards. I think it's pretty cool.

Like, if there's anything to that, I kind of hope that's what it is to be completely honest. And I hope we listen to our future selves. Yeah. we've made it somehow. But how close of a call is it is, you know, kind of my question. But, well, I guess kind of bringing it back down to Earth. I can't believe I just said that on my own show. Anyways, Michael.

Paranoia, you brought that word up. And that's kind of a big thing. It's always been there in this conspiracy theory kind of culture of euphology. But today, it's just like a whole other beast. in America specifically, but all over the world as well. And we do. We live in an age of conspiracy theory now, fake news, every other buzzword you can think of.

But what I find interesting is when Blue Book was first around and the Air Force and whatnot, we're trying to stamp down the hysteria of UFOs invading the country and we can't stop it and kind of downplaying the phenomena with Blue Book. I mean, there's no denying that was. kind of what it was created for. That was an age of paranoia. You're talking like the early years of the Cold War and everything.

And now we live in the probably worst conspiracy theory culture we've ever experienced. And we're also getting these huge UFO stories and the government getting involved and kind of creating a new project Blue Book in some ways. So what do you make of this whole paranoia world we live in? And how does that reflect on the UFO community for you as someone who's, you know, you've always been into the topic, obviously. But now creating Blue Book, you are all in, man. Like, we're tracking you all in.

Yeah, what do you make of all that? What do you make of all of that huge broad question, I guess? So skipping the social media world issues of conspiracy, like let's just look at our own community. I just finished us into the Dolan's book that you'll be. UFO state, you know. And there's just tons and tons of examples of purposely fed misinformation for all kinds of reasons throughout history. And then we know through like that great documentary Mirage Men or Mirren.

Yeah, Miragemen. You're right. Yeah, about the CIA using the UFO community as a cover for real secret projects. A combination of those two, like it's just difficult. And I'm not somebody who just distrusts, but always in the back of my head, there's a caveat that so much of this could just be lies. And that lies like maliciously.

Like another armchair theory that I have about what's going of right now with UAP stuff and this disclosure, seemingly. And maybe you could ask Richard this, or you have an opinion. I think it may be this is just kind of a coup within the government to not, it's a wrong word I want to use to, that within the government there are people who are just sick of the clearances and the top secret stuff that they don't have access to because it's been shelled out to private companies. Imagine being, you know,

we've heard the stories of in the UFO community of different people, different ranks who have looked to get explanations from people that they outranked and were told that you don't have access to that. Right. So I imagine at a certain point, this builds where it's not just UFO stuff, but there's, I bet there's like components to,

I don't know, military stuff. You know, there's files that aren't directly attached to UFOs but are tangentially attached to UFOs that people can't get access to anymore because of programs that are hidden within programs, especially once they go out into the civilian world.

So all of that means I have a, I have a decent suspicion. maybe like a 30% suspicion, that all of this is really about clearances behind the scenes. That in order to get rid of this problem, you have to kind of decimate it. So they put out all of this information so that it becomes more of an open book,

kind of for good reasons, because people want access to the stuff that's gone private. I'm suspecting a lot of this is about that. And Louis Alizando, who I actually take at face of value, but he'll tell you this was his job was part of it was was co-intel stuff and what a great way to do it you you take somebody from the inside you put them as a face to say you know this is what's going on within the government this is real and stuff and i want to help disclose it but secretly it's really has to do it something else and you would take somebody like lou and again i take him at

face value i'd like i'd like listening to him and i actually trust him but as a caveat there's always a possibility he's still just doing his job and he's really good at it because he can talk to you very much like on a human level very much on a very contrite and and tracer robert he's just being honest he comes off very honest right the the most honest sounding people could be trained in sounding honest you know and again like i i take him as face value i i think this is all positive stuff going forward but in the back of my head i i am afraid of the disinformation stuff that here we go again we're going to kick the football and, you know, she's just waiting to yank it away from us. Damn it, Lucy. Yeah, so it's kind of a conspiracy theory that, yeah, maybe this is just more disinformation for a mundane reason, which is usually why crazy stuff happens. It seems like there's a mundane reason that, you know, somebody got fired or somebody got promoted or some law was passed and it's just because somebody has a connection to something.

And it really has nothing to do with anything people care about on a visceral level. So maybe there's just solid clearances and just trying to like bring down that house of cards so they can, you know, have access to files and stuff. I'm not sure. Yeah. I, that's such a good, um, theory because we know, like Alizondo said, um, Christopher Mellon, the former, I believe deputy secretary for intelligence or the Senate Intelligence Committee. I, they have so many letters in front of their names and everything, dude. I get all my next stuff. But they both have said, like, we, we tried to get information and we couldn't.

And we were in charge of these things. And we should have had the information. But there's so much black budget, wild west sort of stuff going on in the government, where you have no idea where those millions of dollars went, who's working on what. So I think you're right. It could be a way to kind of stamp that down and be like, hey, remember, like, remember who you guys work. for the public. So first of all, they need to be made aware of certain things to an extent. Like, I understand national security and everything. But also, like, we are the government. We have

Congress. You answer to us. So if you're working on some back engineered alien craft, we need to know about it. So who knows? The theories could go in many different ways. But I think you're right. But there seems to be like a kind of a new cold war of like counterintelligence going on with all this. Definitely. How we're talking about it to other nations and stuff like that. Sorry. Yeah, please. I was just saying, why wouldn't there be?

And we know through history that this is how it's worked. Like we would lie about my, lie is wrong word in these certain circumstances. But like back in 80s when we're talking about the Star Wars program that we had basically this sort of laser-proof dome on top of the United States that no, amount of missiles and get through. So supposedly then the Russians just ramped up the amount of missiles there making the point that it helped bankrupt them. And that was basically this disinformation. One of my other favorite author is Amy Jacobson, like her book about UFOs. She got fed a story. I don't want to say fed because I don't know anything. But, you know, her story was that Roswell. She was being told by people from the inside that it was basically disinformation from the Russians

who dropped off a crash something, you know the story that they crashed. something there, it was all disinformation to get us into this thing. That could just well be double disinformation or something. I don't know, but it's an example of what goes on through history. We know, like, this information is real. It's a real tool that's being used. So why wouldn't it be used now? And it seems like we consistently kind of fall for the same football, you know.

So a lot of it is a waiting game. So, like, I'm trusting Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon. Like, I think they're on the up and up. you know but but i do reserve the fact that yeah maybe you know maybe i'm lining up for the football yeah right man yeah keep uh keep uh keep one cleat you know on the field and one off and yeah what happens i love that one sticker on yeah yeah i did one thing i didn't think we would talk about was charlie brown so i'm impressed we did um okay well i've got just a couple listener questions for you, Mike. You've been

very gracious with your time, so I don't want to keep you too long, but you mentioned Area 51. Now, I know you guys talked about this on Jimmy Church, but I got to get your opinion on what is this story about this Marvel comic book writer who may have been

the quote unquote Area 51 caller, the famous Area 51 caller on RBL? Do you know any, like, is this something you're familiar with it? I'm slightly familiar with it. Yeah. Would you mind giving Just the, yeah, the Cliff Notes version. Sure.

So there's this phone call that was made to Art Bell back in the 90s called the Frantic Area 51 caller. And it's become part of UFO lore and legend. And it started out. It's like art would have these open line things, right? If you're a vampire, call in blah, blah, blah. If you're a time travel, call him blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And he had one open for Area 51.

if you were your former employee of Area 51, call it. And, you know, it's fun. Maybe there's something real being said, you know, but chances are it's a speculation and fun. And we were working on a science fiction comic called Ship of Fools, which had to do with, it was a science fiction book, but I also wrote in conspiracy stuff

and interdimensional IRS agents and stuff and the Illuminati. And Brian decided to call... 51 line, you're on the air. Hello. Hello. Hello, Art. Yes. Hi.

I don't have a whole lot of time. Well, look, let's begin by finding out whether you're using this line properly or not. Area 51. Yeah, that's right. Were you an employee or are you now? A former employee. Former employee. Former employee.

I was let go on a medical discharge about a week ago, and I've kind of been running across the country. country um oh man i don't know where to start there they're they're gonna um they'll triangulate on this position really really soon so you can't spend a lot of time on the phone so give us something quick okay um um okay well what we're thinking of as as aliens are there uh they're they're extra dimensional beings that an earlier precursor of the um space program made contact with. They are not what they claim to be. They have infiltrated a lot of, a lot of aspects of the military establishment, particularly the Area 51. The disasters that are coming, they, the military, I'm sorry, the government knows about them. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of, safe areas in this world that they could begin moving the population to now are... But they're not doing anything.

They are not... They want the major population centers wiped out so that the few that are left will be more easily controllable. And then he had all this stuff set up and he was going to knock it all over and pretend like he was being like arrested or caught or whatever. And as he's getting to this, and then, and this is the most important part, he would say, I'm just playing with your art, you know, I'm just a fan. That this was theater, you know, this is theater. It was always intended to be that. But as he's going on, he's saying stuff like, you know, there's these disasters coming, and the government knows where safe areas are.

The aliens aren't what they seem and they're not doing anything. As he's saying this stuff, the art loses contact with the satellite. or something like something not normal for going off the air it was like the actual satellite link or something crazy and like i don't think it was art looking for an opportunity to make something happen uh because it was off air for like 10 minutes or something like a really long time like death to a DJ death to a radio show is reading right you can't go silent maybe 30 seconds is like it's like an evil can evil move going silent i don't know but more like 10 minutes or something uh Brian was completely freaked out because like for a while we were thinking well maybe

Maybe he just said something that was accidentally too close to the truth. He had the phone records, tried to get back in touch with Art to clear everything up. He never could. Art either didn't want to believe because it was good for the show to not believe, or I'm sure art gets hit with all people faking stuff like phone records and things like that all the time. And it just went on and on and on, and we couldn't stop and we moved on with our lives. You know, one day I'm watching, I'm listening to a tool album, and they took that phone call, the music band Tool, and they turned it into a song at the end.

So I'm listening. I'm drawing and I'm like, that's, that's Brian what is going on. So yeah, so he ended up there. There was a movie, I think it was called Monopolis

that starts out with a recreation of his phone call. And he goes to show these things. And like, all these opportunities tell people this was meant to be theater and it blew up in this other thing. Nobody wanted to listen to him.

Nobody, no matter how many times he told it. Even after he went on to, to, Jimmy showed to clear it up, you know, let's just say he had some negative feedback, you know, even in just trying. And then there were people just say, well, this is just another layer of disinformation, you know. I shouldn't say that after all. I didn't say about this. Yeah. Yeah, people were like, oh, yeah. Bullshit. They told him to say that. Yeah.

No, that's a crazy story. And it. Brian Glass is his name, right? Yeah, Brian J.L. Glass. He's also a co-creator with me on books like, um, uh, the mice Templar and a bunch of other stuff we've worked on together. He's worked for Marvel and DC. And he's a good guy. He's not out to fool anybody. It's just one of these things that it became its own life. You know, there's millions of listens to the original video and stuff. And it's just been insane.

And he's not made a single penny off of it. He never got a single job because of it or anything. It's really caused him nothing by headaches. Yeah, I can imagine, especially those who believe that he actually, it was a cover up and he did work at Area 51. That's what happens. Look at the War of the World's broadcasts. People wanted to believe so much, you know, that they will, it'll cloud your judgment.

So you guys solidified yourselves into UFO lore far before Blue Books. So I love that. Thank you. Thanks for telling that, man. I thought that was a really funny story. Two listener questions for you before I let you go back to your life. Oh, here we go. Chris, Chris on Facebook wants to know.

Will you be featuring Heinek and other Blue Book investigators in the comic book? Yeah, definitely. I can't say where or when, but one of the first things I did was I drew some Heinek studies. You know, he's got stuff a great cartoony face. Yeah. He's perfect. He's great of draws. I can't wait for him.

And, you know, it'll be fun doing guys like Kehoe and stuff. Like, we'll get into people that are part of the history that, you know, aren't like major stars. but stars, I hate using that term, like the celebrity thing, you know. But there are lesser players that are very important. And, yeah, we'll be seeing lots of these characters. Awesome. That's good to know. Rick on Reddit has a comic book question.

How is the comic book industry changed since you first started and where it is today? I mean, obviously digital is probably the biggest thing. But just in terms of even your creative process. I would imagine is different too. Yeah, that's a big question, but yeah, what do you think? Yeah, it's evolved so much, so much. Like, breaking into comics in the 80s and first doing comics in the early 90s, there were literally no women creators.

Like it just wasn't a thing. There were a few editors, some colorists. And over time, that's opened up. So that's a huge change. And we're still working on it, but, you know, I mean, literally at one point, there was just nothing, there's nothing, you know. So there's the cultural acceptance. Like, it didn't just become acceptable for boys to be reading and making comics. It started to become everybody in different ages.

So you started from there. It was like getting everybody to be felt welcome to read comics. And then the film stuff has been the hugest change. And that really helped change things in the industry. The biggest changes now are like the digital distribution and stuff. And there are now so many more ways to get, to creatively get out there, probably in the same space as you are, whether you're looking at Patreon, Kickstarter, and other fundraisers. This substack thing is different, but that's a good example about how companies are investing in comics as a way to communicate ideas and stuff. So yeah, it's all really, really, really changed a lot over the years.

All for the better. one of the problems stemmed out of the best thing that happened to comics, which was comic book stores. In the early 80s, comic book stores first started popping up. And in order to help them grow, I think it was Marvel started a program with them for discounts on direct sale books. But what happened was comics stopped going to new stand racks and only to comic stores. So the way to sell comics became in specialty stores. So it really sort of limited getting comics out to the public. And now with these different distribution chains,

and now you've got like Penguin Random House to step in, and they're starting to distribute books. So it's easier to get physical comics now. And if you can't, then there's stuff like the substack thing. You could read it on reedbookbook.com. And there it is. There's a subscription for it, but you will also get James's other weird stuff

that he's going to be putting out. There's lots of mid-firo that comes with it. And yeah, there's just this wide open thing now. And I love, I'm doing World of Crypton for VC, which is very mainstream, solid comic book stuff, floppy comics that will be put into a trade, doing some Patreon comic stuff, doing the substack thing.

I'm open to any form of storytelling. Cool. Yeah, I think, you know, it's really democratized, I think, the industries in many ways, like you said, with me. Like, I'm a independent, I'm on a network, but I make the show from scratch. I don't have an editor. I don't have, you know, anyone, like, doing anything. So it's a good parallel to what we're talking about. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, you have to only go through a radio station. Now you're on radio. Exactly. I'm, I've, I've, I've, my own radio network, as it were. Yeah. But then, you know, you have that struggle of you have like Spotify creating podcasts, you know, cranking them out or, you know, some of these big, big networks. And you're like, oh, I'm kind of getting lost in the mix. But I don't see it that way, man. I, again, like you said,

like the more people involved, I think is better for everyone. And it just kind of, you know, it introduces you to other people. So, you know, I'm all for it. Go Spotify. Make your shows. Maybe they'll somehow find their, you know, Demi Lovato premiered a UFO show today on I was just talking to my wife about that and like she was asking about it and stuff. And yeah, you know, ultimately I think it's a good thing. It's not going to be a show for you and I. It's not going to be a show for your listeners for the most part. You know, like I'll watch it. It'll be curious and fun. The hope is that people, however good or bad it is, it will just open that door up for people to want to learn more and to read, you know, the Betty Barney Hill story to

look into Rendell Shinn. That's what we need from it. Like the whole time to long thing and to the stars, even the most hater of haters of all of that stuff have to admit how that changed the narrative

in the public's eye. It was hugely important. And if Tom DeLong just wants to make t-shirts out of like UFO heads or whatever, I don't know. I'm being kind of snarky there. He already did something so great

for the community that got this conversation changed. that changed the narrative of the way that we're perceived. That was hugely important. And maybe this show will do the same, hopefully. Hopefully, yeah. And I watched the first episode, and she's passionate, man. She wants the truth.

So, hey, we'll invite anyone into our crazy dysfunctional family, if need be. Like you said, the more people who get involved and ask questions, the more normal the topic becomes, the more the stigma is shed. Yeah, it was funny, some of the reaction to, like, the JJ Abrams show, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the production value was great. We were all, many of us were complaining, well, it's kind of the same, nothing too new. You know, maybe it's disinformation, blah, blah, blah.

But most of us are missing the point that that's not here to benefit us. Like, we live in this world. We're getting this information all of the time. We need shows like that to get more people seriously interested in it and to take it seriously. So those are, these are all great opportunities. There's like Skinwalker Ranch and stuff and even ancient aliens or I don't like what it's turned into, but it was an important part of opening up the narrative

to people who aren't studying it all the time. Oh, totally. I work with the ancient aliens company, Prometheus, with their alien cons, these big conferences that they put on for ancient aliens fans. And the reason they brought me on was to be like, okay, we have our thing. It's pop culture.

these people, they're going to bring their families, have fun. But we want them to learn the real history of UFOs. So they started bringing in me. They started bringing in Richard Dolan. And I thought that was great. It's like, all right, maybe sucalose, big-haired dude and aliens and pyramids brought you here. But like, here's the actual history of UFOs and what you should look into. Yeah.

Like I'm sure you saw it when you're at the con. People who came in at a lark. They had nothing else to do. And they'd just drag their kids in that day. But then they start talking to you and they're like, hey, wait a minute. Oh, that reminds you. So I had an experience and then they realized they're a little closer than they even ever thought that they were. And they start looking into it.

So like all this stuff is fairly good. Yeah, exactly. It is what it is. Last two questions for you, Mike. Can you tell us a little about the hero initiative? I just learned about this on your website and I thought it was awesome. Yeah, would you mind telling us a little about that? Thanks, man.

That is awesome. So comic books, they don't have any safety nets for anybody. Like there's no retirement plans, there's no health care. You're completely on your own financially in every way. There's no 401Ks or anything like that. So a lot of us get into financial trouble, usually through health issues, but there's other issues too, you know. But the hero's initiative is there to help comic creators who are struggling.

And I said it's typically like a health thing with us. I had been working for them for like 20 something years since they started. And it was always this kind of like snarky jersey joke. I'm like, oh, I'm only doing all this so that, you know, I'll need them one day. You know, it's like a joke to play off that you're doing something decent. And then, my wife, Taki, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2017, I think. And not only is that as scary as it sounds, but financially, the immediate help that she needed would have cost it's over $10,000. It's an infusion of medications.

And the options where she'd get that or she'd get a lesser treatment, you know. And at this point, it was bad enough that when we brought her into hospital, she was in full-blown, it was called a flare-up. Like her arm is curled in like this. she can't use her left hand. We, far as far as we knew, this was, this was her life, you know. And here initiative within like a day, 24 hours or something like that, got it's approved for this, for the money to pay for this first treatment. And it got us covered.

She got care right away. And then helping us, then helped us find other programs to be able to continue to pay for the treatment and stuff. Something we might not have been able to do our own. And they've done this several times, a lot of times with artists. Some of who have died. Some of who have passed away because of their friend with cancer who died, others that they've helped out. And then it's not all health care stuff.

Some of it is just, you know, you work and you live check to check like a lot of people do. And then one day, those checks aren't coming in very often anymore because, well, you get old or you can't draw the way you used to. You just fall out of favor. There's all sorts of reasons. There's ageism as a thing in comics Just like every place else And you can get yourself into a bad spot

And the Heroes Initiative is there to help out And they do it through donations So if you want to support creative people in hard times Heroinitiative.com is a great place to go That's awesome, man And yeah, I mean it's sad that like it had to be a choice You know, between full treatment or a lesser Like that shouldn't be the way it is

especially here in America. So I think that's awesome. I, you know, as someone who had a very sick mother in my whole life, it was the same way. Like, my father was the only one who could work and he did everything he could to, like, help her get the treatment she needed, but it was tough. And there were times where you just had to make sacrifices, but it shouldn't be that way.

So I think that's awesome. And I know it's not just for health issues as well. And people don't know. like it doesn't matter if you're a Broadway actor or you're working for Marvel. Like these jobs are temporary. That's why we're artists. So it's the paychecks, it's not like you said, you're not on salary.

Every good month I have where a good amount of money comes in. I can go months without any, any check, without any income, you know, and I'm working, but you have to, there's just the way it works out.

Like sometimes you'll get paid three months after finishing the job or something, you know? Yeah. You know, and then you change your life to live around that way, and it's fine. You know, but sometimes you get into a jam. Yep. And that's what the hero initiatives for. I love that.

That's so cool. Thanks for bringing that up. Of course. Of course. And of course, last question. You mentioned your Patreon. I've read the first four pages he sent me of Galaxy of Madness, but please tell me about. Yeah, yeah, please.

No, you did. I just haven't gotten too often. Yeah. I was too busy reading more about Betty and Barney Hill. Tell us about Galaxy of Madness, man. This sounds awesome. Galaxy Madness is total fiction. It's a science fiction thing.

But I think people who are interested in this field would be interested in the comic as far as, A, it's fun. And so it's a fun read. It's not a heavy, emotionally, turmoily kind of thing. And the basic story is about a girl named Vigil Virgo whose parents. were a space archaeologists and basically discovered a secret about the universe that was so big

that they had to leave her behind to go explore it and they left her in charge of this guy who's basically her her foster father and they completely disappear. She's now following their tracks to discover what did they discover about the universe that was so dangerous and big and crazy that they're gone and I've got to go follow in their footsteps. And the foster father who is like a father to her, and they do love each other, keeps kind of sabotaging her along the way. So it's this great father-daughter relationship on top of fun stuff like archaeology, the origins of the universe, consciousness, like all these things are sort of tied into the comic. And it's just fun characters.

And again, because on Patreon, you don't need to go to a comic book store to find it. I think our basic subscription is $5. Every month you get 22 pages plus more than 22 pages, plus a bunch of extras behind the scenes stuff. And it's a lot of fun. And just go to patreon.com forward slash galaxy of madness and see if you like it. I'm there, man. That sounds so cool.

I love that. I love stories like that. That's so cool. Awesome. Well, of course, last question. can we find Blue Book and everything you're up to, Mike? The easiest way to find Blue Book online is to go to readbluBook.com. Super simple, readbluebook.com.

That brings you to James Tinian's substack page. But it goes right to the Blue Book stuff. So that's a great place to check it out. The first issue is absolutely free. And then you can consider whether or not you want to follow up on the rest or just pull off until we eventually figure out a way to publish it and stuff. But we're concentrating on this format first. that's that's easiest way and then you can find me anywhere online as you can see under my my face there

i guess there we go yeah at oming both on twitter and uh instagram awesome man and we'll have links in the show notes for everything and um oh will we be seeing a print edition of blue book is that ever going to happen eventually eventually but just not on the radar right now because we've got to do the work and stuff yeah you've got a big story to tell still which uh Which is awesome, too. You mentioned digitally, you will have the luxury of if you need to change something or want to change something, you can, which is pretty cool. Yeah. It's like getting the director's cut almost.

I love it. Well, I have kept you far longer than I told you we were going to be. So please go work on Blue Book. I'm so excited for whatever comes next with that and everything you're doing. And, of course, thank you so much for coming on somewhere in the skies. Thanks, man. I really, really appreciate you. so much.

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