Somewhere in the Skies - Bonus Episode: Reviewing COMMUNION with Andrew Sanford

Episode Date: April 17, 2020

In this bonus episode of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Andrew Sanford returns to review yet another film that would go down in the annals of alien abduction history; but not exactly in the best of ways. Polarizing in every sense of the word, Communion, adapted from the New York Times Best-Selling book of the same name, tells the story of real-life horror novelist, Whitley Strieber.  On December 26th, 1985, at a secluded cabin in upstate New York, Whitley Strieber joined his wife and son for a weekend in the woods. They celebrated the holiday together and went to bed early. Six hours later, he found himself suddenly awake...and forever changed. In the film adaptation, directed by Phillipe Mora and starring Christopher Walken as Whitley Strieber, it became clear that just because a book is a phenomenal success, that doesn't mean the film will be as highly praised. Ryan and Andrew navigate their way through this dizzying film, trying to find out just exactly where the film went wrong... and so bizarrely right! Check out Ryan and Andrew on the CW Television series, Mysteries Decoded. Stream for free at: www.cwseed.com Follow Andrew Sanford on Twitter @SanfordMinusSon Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. Today on the show, Andrew Sanford returns for another movie review.

Here I am. I'm naked. I'm naked. I'm talking to you like you were real. Go to hell. That's right. We're talking about the Christopher Walk-in' 1989 movie adaptation of Communions. You, you people, you're in. I'm telling you, you're in for one big surprise, one very big surprise. This is somewhere. in the skies with Ryan's bread. I got a lot of thoughts. I'm excited to dig in.

Awesome. Well, we might as well just dig in. There's no better way than to just go head first into communion. Yeah, man. Yeah. So once again, I am joined by Andrew Sanford for another UFO slash alien movie review. We're going to be reviewing 1989's Communion. Andrew, before we get to that, how's everything going?

It's been about a month now. of lockdown. So are you going crazy yet? Oh, a little bit. You got to look at the bright side. You know, I have become a king of the Morlocks while all this is going on, which was a hard fought battle. But I think once they realized that I just wanted to get them health care, everything was

a smooth transition. That's all you got to do to gain loyalty. That's true. Absolutely. Yeah, it's been going. I've just been trying to. write as much as possible. I just finished,

I did a spec script for one of my favorite TV shows, what we do in the shadows, which has, which I'll give a plug to them, I guess, but that season, like, as of our recording this,

that's their new season starts up like tomorrow night. So excited for that. Always good to have like a nice little spec script in your back pocket. Something short for people to read. All you screen are like, as soon to be screen. screenwriters out there. Apparently, that's like the thing now is to have like a nice half-hour sitcom spec script because then it's not a lot for people to read. Most of the scripts that I have

are between 90 and like 125 pages. So, hey, man, always have something in the back pocket. You might go in with the play and they might be like, hey, we don't want that. But do you have like, you know, a 30-minute television script or whatever? And you got to be ready to just throw it on the table. Exactly, exactly. And always go to people for feedback. I had sent it out to it like the, I felt good about the first draft of this to begin with, but then I sent it out for feedback. And then I like, I honed it down. So, you know, gave it a nice little cleanup. And now, like, I have something that I can show to people that I'm pretty proud of. And if people out there feel like reading any of my stuff, I actually think you can read some of the screenplays that I've submitted for things on a website called Coverfly. A lot of my stuff is listed as discreet. So if you look up Andrew Sanford, you can see things I've submitted, including a horror comedy that's like just got me into the semifinals for something. I forgot to tell you about that. So it's like, yeah, yeah. So it's like, you know, it's always, I've just been trying to keep writing to keep myself from going crazy. I wonder at the end of this, I shouldn't say the end. This COVID-19 thing is going to be our new normal. Right. Once this first first, wave of it passes, and we're allowed to go back into society again. How many new books and screenplays and pitches are going to be out there. We might see a whole new creative renaissance.

I mean, look at some of our greatest artists who came up with their masterpieces during the Spanish flu or the Black Plague. Like, it's crazy to think that such amazing stuff can come out or something so horrible. But hey, that's life. Yeah. You even have, uh, just recently Kevin Smith talking about how he wrote COVID-19 into his new draft of the Moritz sequel. So, you know, the greatest art. I do wonder what the first, uh, you know, mainstream representation of this entire thing is going to be whether a movie or a documentary. I hope nothing. Documentary would be fine. I would like some nice, like, you know,

Or our, like, Chernobyl for like for our version of this, essentially. But I want movies and TV shows and books that take place almost exclusively outside. It's just people being able to go outside, hugging one another. Just going to the grocery store without having to wear a mask. That's what I want to see. I'm with you, man. Well, hey, we need, we need things to do. distract us now. And that definitely

happened with communion. So let's sort of paint the picture here. We've got 1989 drama horror film based on the book of the same name by Whitley Streber, who most of my audience either know personally or no of him.

Could you fill me in a smidge? Because I will say, I did like a little research, but I assumed that you would know this guy better than I So who is Whitley Streber? So he is a, he's mostly known for being a horror novelist. I mean, he's written some really, you know, big horror novels that were turned into movies. The Hunger, where, like, this dude's trapped in a love triangle with a vampire and, um...

Now that is a movie. Yeah, right? That's a movie right there. But, um... Well, it is. I think that if I remember correctly, there's one with David, it's got David Bowie. Yeah, so I mean, dude, he's no slouch. I mean, this guy, pretty much every novel that Whitley Streber was coming out with were being made into movies,

even as recently as The Day After Tomorrow, that big disaster movie based on his book, The Day After Tomorrow. Whoa, that's wild. Yeah, so, I mean, he has, he's got some street cred for sure, but this is what's interesting is in, when he wrote this book Communion, it was supposedly a true story. So you have this guy writing these fantasy dark worlds of werewolves and vampires. And then boom, he comes out with this novel saying, here's my new book, it's a true story. So you're like, what the hell is this?

And I'm not kidding you, man, Communion, the book, It Took the World by Storm. It became a New York Times best seller within, like weeks of its publication. Really? The book I'm looking at right now, the cover is the most iconic image of an alien to date. And it just became such a staple in the UFO lore and history. So when...

But not until 19... When did the book come out? Was it close to 1989? Let me check. Yeah, let me check. I'm going to say 80s. What do we got? 1987. So, I mean, the movie wasn't that far after, to be honest.

I wonder why they couldn't get a better production company to make this movie. What are you talking about? Not to, like, take shots. Oh, we'll get there. We'll get there. Oh, man, that's so crazy to me. It also seemed like it had such a small budget, even from things that I've read. And it only made, like, $2 million, which isn't like anything to slouch it in 1989, but it's like also not like 1989 was a huge year for movies too as well though so it's that's that's that's a tough ha yeah so okay so let's give let's give some um some of the technical stuff here communion was written the screenplay by whitley streber same guy who wrote the book uh directed by philippe mora um the cast included christopher walkin lindsay crows francis sternhagen and andreas cotsulis it's quite a cast i mean

I mean, this is a talented cast, man. And Andreas Katsoulas is one of my, he plays the one-armed man in the film adaptation of The Fugitive. Yes. Starring Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones. And he's great in that movie, too. He's great in this one. It's, um, yeah. Yeah, you're right.

No slouches in here. Yeah, Francis was like a huge Broadway actor at the time. She played the doctor in this movie, the hypnotherapist, which we'll get to. But, um, so. Oh, yeah, Andrew, do you have the official synopsis for us? I sure do. Based on what author Whitley Streber described as true accounts, Communion tells the tale of a writer who encounters aliens while on a working vacation in a remote cabin.

Boom. Very simple. But the movie not so much simple. So I guess we'll kind of just dive right into it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite things to see in a horror movie, which is a little kid acting like a little kid.

Just walking around. Oh, with that fun, like, dressed like a 1950s cab driver. What was up with that? You say acting like a little kid, but Whitley Streber's son in this movie, his name is, what's the kid's name, Alex? No, no, that was the problem. I think it's Andrew, isn't it? It's Andrew.

Nope, you're right. Dude, he looks like a 40-year-old. It's making such like weird faces. Like they clearly, I, listen, nobody to get a child actor who can stand still for more than five minutes is amazing. To get one who's actually a good actor is a miracle. So I'm always surprised when that happens. Oh, yeah. This instance, this movie, I feel like they really had a tough time.

Yeah. I think the direction of this movie is going to come up. lot, but let's paint the picture. Our first opening images in this movie is the Manhattan Skyline with the Twin Towers, which was, you know, anytime you see those now in a movie, you're like, wow, like this is really putting us back in a certain time. Yeah, and they were such an integral part of the city skyline in the city itself. Like, it really is something where you just realize how ingrained in the city it was and like not to go off on too much of a engine why they were such a target.

Yeah. Like why it was something that like it really, they had no choice but to kind of represent what people think when they see New York City or what they see when they think of New York City because they're just there and they're glorious. And it's just, it's true. It's always a little bit like, oh, yeah, like. I forgot about it. Yeah.

And the tragedy and, you know, just awful. Yeah. Right. Um, well, okay. So open on the skyline And then we get the smooth guitars Of none other than Eric Clapton Did you know he did the music for this?

I did only because at first I was just like, huh, why does this sound so much Like lethal weapon? And then I was like, oh, because it's the same guy Who did the music for Lethal Weapon. Like that's just that kind of Wee leo Like it's

Spot on, spot on. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that was my first thought, like the first thing I looked up about this movie. It's just so great. And it does, if this mute movie is anything, it is a time capsule for 1989. We're in that weird transition from the 80s into the 90s. Shoulder pads are big, but they're not like all big because people are starting to get over that slightly. New York is still kind of gross.

Like it's right before it was starting to get cleaned up. It is. And the music is that time period in a nutshell. And I believe lethal weapon came out like the year before. I want to say the first lethal weapon is like 88. So to get, it might, it's either like 88 or 87, it might be 87 actually, because I think Richard Donner did that movie instead of doing Lost Boys. No big deal why I know that.

But so to get Eric Clapton to do the music for this movie is a pretty big get. Yeah. Same with Christopher Walken. Yeah, yeah. Like there's honestly a lot of things that are, like I didn't know how big the book was. And it makes a lot of things make a little bit more sense. And make other things make less sense. Like again, why they were getting, why they got the director of the Howling 2 and Howling 3.

But apparently that dude was just like working during the 80s. So they might have just been like, listen, we just need a director. Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder, and I know that Streber was good friends with the director. I don't know if this was prior to the film. I could see the relationship being a little torn apart after the film, but we'll get to that. Yeah, or not, and you know what, or not.

Because, again, it's like if there's something about how mundane this movie is that made it feel more like a true story to me. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like it was so paired down. Nothing was like over drama to his eyes. Like, don't keep me wrong, there are some things. And apparently from what I read, Streber had a problem with how crazy Christopher Wachin was being at a certain point.

You are spot on. Whitley Streber did not care for Walken's performance. And he told him, he went up to him in the middle of his, like a cut scene. And he said, hey, man, you're playing me a little over the top. And honestly, it makes me come off a little crazy. And Watkins replied to him was, well, if the shoe fits. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no.

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How perfect is that? So you do have to wonder, what did Walken truly think about this role he was playing and the story and the fact that it was supposedly true? I do wonder that. Right. Absolutely.

Yeah, because especially on a film set when you're doing something that is, that some people interpret as true events, and some people, I'm sure, question vehemently. You have to think, like, well, what was that film set like? Was, like, you know, did the cinematographer think that this was real while the key grip did not? Or the, like, you know, did the director even believe Whitley Streber? Did people, even though apparently like, oh, that's, and this is one thing that I will say,

I remember reading something where I believe it was the director. I think him and Whitley Streeper are friends because years prior when we were, Whitley Streber had this happened to him, he said to the director, like, explained what happened to the director and the director just said, yeah, you know, something along the lines up when you want to make a movie out of this, come call me. Like, that was it. He wasn't interested in the reality of it, it seems, at least. And again, I don't want to speak for the man.

And as I said in the last review that we had, making a good movie is an incredible feat in and of itself. So to have to do that while towing the line of something that is inherently fantastical, but is supposed to be true, has got to be tough. It's got to be tough. And I mean, there's a lot going on with this one. But I guess we'll rein it back into the plot. We see this, to me, at least, a very loving family. I think Whitley Streber's relationship with his wife.

as portrayed by these actors, it was very compassionate. It was very endearing. Yeah. And I loved seeing it. Absolutely. I think that helped ground the movie is that it became about this family's relationship. Almost pretty quickly. One note I do have, and I think you'll agree with me here, we're both writers.

Writers are the worst. And nothing is more evident as that as when he's, oh, I forget what he's saying at the beginning, but he's just, like, waxing poetic about what he was working on, and I was just like, bleh. I'm like, God, she's got to deal with this all the time. There were wolves in the closet, wolves in the basement, wolves all over the place. They work in advertising. They sell junk food and beer.

They're gigantic hamburgers, and they drink cold beers for their baseball games on the TV and the bags of the potato chips with them, big enough to feed all. horse. They have a lot of fun. Okay, so this is, I have an exact note on this, because I want your opinion, Andrew. We get these, um, these montages of Whitley Streber trying to write. And it's interesting, you know, he's listening to music. He has, uh, a television monitor on himself, staring at himself. And this is where I, you really begin to see Christopher walking and his acting process, rather than Whitley Streeper in his writing. process, I think.

Although I guess they could be interchangeable. They're both artists. So I do wonder, like, how much of this is how Whitley Schreber actually did his process and how much of it is Christopher Walken just doing what he does best. Get up! I'm cooking. I'm cooking. I'm on a roll.

What's the matter with you? Or even the director, you know? Nothing is harder to make look interesting than someone's, you know, sitting at a computer writing. Like, it's just, it's tough. It's hard to make that something that you want to look at visually, especially when it's got to be such a driving point

of who your character is. And I wouldn't, you know, I would not pretend to understand anybody else's process or, like, go by anybody else's process. But if you wanted to film me writing, it would be the most boring thing that you could possibly catch

on film, especially now. Now, like, because I'm trying to just switch things up most of the time and like give my poor wife like a time like not having to sit there with me just like hunched over on my iPad which is where I do most of my writing I'm in my room or in our room just like on the bed just with it in my chest just clacking away it's incredibly boring it is nowhere near as much as like him standing up and dancing the music and like tapping on the notebook and like it like you said film himself, which I really thought was going to come back a lot more later and didn't.

Like all this stuff where I'm just like, this seems like a very involved process. And hey, if that's how Whitley-Striever writes, he's got more New York Times bestsellers than I do. So who cares? And that's great. But I would be very surprised if that wasn't a choice either by Christopher Walken or by the director to make those scenes interesting. Right. And you know what? I mean, if you hear Whitley Schreber in person, he's, you know, he's poetic, he's eloquent,

but at the same time, he's a little drab and monotone. So, like, to bring out that life in a character that you're portraying, like, yeah, you've got to bring a little bit of yourself to that. And I think that's what Christopher Walken does really good and maybe not so really good in this film. But I do agree with you. I think to understand a writer's process, uh, everyone's a little different. And one of the lines that really stuck out to me, and I think what's important about this scene of how does a write a write is that he doesn't know how to write at this point. He's doing everything he's always done to try to inspire and get motivated,

but nothing's coming to him. So this is a severe writer's block for this guy. He has no idea what comes next, what he's writing. And he even tells his wife, you know, how did today go? and he said, I lost a day. And that's so, I feel like I have said that so many times. Like, I feel like I just lost an entire day of my life. I'll never get back. And I didn't do a fucking thing with it. So you understand that frustration of a writer who is at that point in his career where the pressure's on.

Like, how do you keep topping yourself when you've hit the top so many times in your genre? So, what is the deal, you know? Yeah. And we see that he, even in this, we see that he is, you know, very successful. Like, he has, they live in an amazing apartment on the Upper West Side. That's what I was thinking to, yep. Yeah, like, even in 1989, like, that's nothing to sneeze at, to say the least. Yeah, for anyone out there.

Somebody outside my apartment and they're either dealing drugs or toilet paper, and I can't tell which. Oh, they're one in the same. I'm going to close. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's something to behold to see somebody try to be so eccentric and show the perils of, like, being a writer at the same time. It is. It's very interesting. And so you're saying Whitley Streber is more of like a reserved human being. I assume you've seen interviews and stuff with him before. Oh, yeah. I mean, I met him face to face several times.

Oh, nice. Yeah, he's a really interesting guy. And we'll get to that. I think after communion came out, and everything he did after that is, it's a fascinating journey, which we'll get to, I think, towards the end. Sure. Okay, so we have Whitley.

He has no idea what's coming next in terms of his creative process. So what do you do? You leave. You go somewhere else, and that's what he and his family do. Oh, I forgot a really, Another really colorful moment.

So he's so caught up at his process that he burns dinner and the FDNY shows up to me. And this is what I thought was interesting. The guy comes in, like the fire chief or whatever. He's like, hey, man, you've been warned. Like how many, how many does Whitley Streber burn enough where the FDU and Y shows up and says, this is like the eighth time you've done this, dude? I do wonder. Yeah.

And I love that they have the same response. to him burning dinner that they have to him getting written a $200 ticket, which is a very yuppie, like, oh, man. Like, they're so, they're all, like, laughing it off. It was, it's such a,

it was such a strange thing to have happened. But again, and it comes into that weird thing of, like, you're saying, like, did this happen to this dude a lot? Like, did he burn dinner several times? And to the point where the fire department got called? Right. Why did the fire department get called? Like,

my fire my um smoke alarm goes off if like um uh sometimes if the oven gets like slightly too hot like the fire department never gets called on me um so it's like one of the like that's a whole other can of worms but i did think that was fun at you're right to see that's just like oh that's like that's how they show that that's that how distracted he was yeah yeah that he left a chicken in in the oven for too long or a turkey or whatever i think it was a duck but um we're splitting Or duck, sure. Yeah. Whatever. All right.

So he almost burns the apartment down. It's time to like, you know, just calm down and they go to their, I guess, vacation home, this cabin in upstate New York. Right. And I think Whitley is looking at this opportunity. Like, I'm going to bring some friends out there. We're just going to have a good time and let whatever happens happen. And I don't think what he expects to happen happens. but yeah, let's get to

All right, the cabin scene, the first one. So it's nighttime, everyone goes to bed, you know, they had a nice dinner and everything, and suddenly the cabin is enveloped in some sort of blinding white light, the alarm system disables, just like in dark skies, the last movie we watched, which I thought was interesting. And then Whitley wakes up abruptly in one of the, creepiest scenes in a movie, in my opinion, and he looks in the doorway and he sees this teardrop shaped-faced thing with big black orbital eyes and it peaks in and then it scampers

away. Yes. What did you think of this initial appearance of quote-unquote the alien Andrew? I appreciated how it kind of like built up tension-wise, but also how like very sudden it was. I didn't expect it to happen kind of that quickly. I will say this brings me to one of my first questions, and I see that it's this way on the cover of the book as well. I have heard of Greys, especially in conversations with you

and even just talking about the last movie that we talked about. I have never heard of them being flesh-colored before. Yeah. Is that a thing? This is interesting. It's not really a portrayal we're used to seeing. I mean, the image you see on the movie, in the book, this is exactly what he described to the artist who made the drawing.

So, I mean, we're talking like a tan beige colored alien. Yeah, this is a unique portrayal, I think. I think a lot of people expected to see these aliens and they'd be like the little grays as we've come to know them. But no, this is not how he described it. So then I guess my next question would be, were there things that looked like aside from the color? of it, were there things that looked like that mentioned in UFO sightings before? Or was this the first time that we get what has kind of commonly been come to know, or we've commonly come to know as what aliens look like and kind of like pop culture and things like that? So there had

been reports of these sort of gray's prior to this event, but this is the one that really, really shaped the UFO abduction narrative. So, I mean, there have been others who said they saw, you know, big-headed aliens with, like, big, you know, almost insect-like eyes and whatnot. But this was the first time where it really came into the mainstream. And I think a lot of that had to do with the book becoming a bestseller. I mean, after this book came out and people saw that image on the front cover, like thousands and thousands and thousands of Thousands of reports started to come in from all over the world of people saying I saw the same thing. That book cover terrified me because I know exactly what he's talking about.

No. Is it chicken and egg? Like which came first? Were these people influenced by the book and the cover? I can't tell you. But yeah, we get this first glimpse of an alien and then it scampers away in the bedroom. And then we cut to his son in his room and the friends in the other room. all see this light like enveloping the home so i mean this isn't just wittly streber hallucinating

and like something is going on and um right you know which is interesting you know usually these these things we they only happen to the person having the experience but we're kind of getting a um an objective experience here like something is going on and i thought that was fun too and you do kind of, it creates this kind of joint narrative that they don't really, I mean, it takes the wife having to go through

a therapy session later on to even remember what happened. Yeah. And it also makes the true story aspect of things a little bit more engrossing because then I started to wonder, well, have people ever, I'm sure Whitley Streber has had interviews, have those other people been interviewed before, talk about this?

like his friends are those like characters that were created for the movie or those like did he have two friends that he went into the cabin with that are now kind of forever part of his narrative from when he was visited by aliens i mean i specifically remember i haven't read the book in a really long time so full disclosure like i really wanted to come into this review being like i'm going to compare it to the book but i can't i first of all i'd never seen the movie before it the first time i saw it was watching oh fun for this review um but i do distinctly remember him recalling the friends being there during this initial experience. Now, whether or not they've gone on record in their own words, I can't tell you. I do find it interesting,

though, that again, they're... Okay, so, okay, the light happens, Whitley sees this weird creature, and then boom. The next morning, you know, well, before that, he goes into the son's room because the son's screaming, and he, um, cross the sun down. Um, they have this weird, like, insensitive moment of like Native American chance to one another, which I didn't really understand. And everyone goes back. It was 1989. It was 1989. Exactly.

All you can do, if you watch any movie before the year, like 2010, even, you can just hope that they're going to be sensitive. That's really the most you can do. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. All right. So the next morning, this was interesting.

The friends, they. They get out of there. They're like, something weird happened. We can't explain it, but we don't want to be here. We're uncomfortable. Whitley's like, no, what are you talking about? Like, it was the moon. It was this. Nothing happened. But it gets to the point where he, they force him to bring them home, which was really uncomfortable, you know. Yeah, he seems pissed. He's pissed. Which I really appreciate it. Yeah, I would be too if like I invited my friends here. I paid for everything. They're in my home. And then they're saying, we want to go back to the city, bring us back. Like, it's an awkward position to be in. Because Whitley doesn't remember any of this stuff happening the night prior and flat out denies it or doesn't remember it, which we'll get to.

So, yeah, this is where I think things sort of start to unravel. They go back to New York and almost immediately all this weird shit starts to happen. We go to a night of Halloween where Whitley and. his family, they go to a costume party, and Whitley's dressed as a, I don't know, a guy in a suit with an elephant trunk, which was pretty interesting. I don't know if that was a Christopher walking choice or what. Well, I think that was trying to show, like, that to me felt like, oh, this isn't a guy that, like, you know, makes things up or takes things likely or lightly. They have to, like, force him to wear a Halloween costume. And the most that he'll wear is he's like,

look, I'll put on this trunk. And they're just like, well, you have to at least wear something gray with it because elephants are gray. Like, so that to me felt like a moment to be like, this is a guy that takes things very seriously. He's not going to just like make up wild and crazy things. Right. So if somebody that's like very serious and takes himself very seriously presents this kind

of story, they can't be making it up. Like that felt to me as kind of a way to be like, look, this guy's not crazy. He won't even wear a Halloween costume. That's a really good point. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, it is showing the nature of, yeah, he's, you know, he writes these fantastical stories of like horror and dread and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, like, he's just, he's an eccentric guy. He's an artistic guy.

But he's not crazy. So I think that's a really good point. But, okay, so in terms of being crazy, this is the first moment where we, we get this scene where he sees a pumpkin in the hallway and he, goes up to it with his son, a woman pops out, and, um, it's this huge giant praying mantis. And he freaks the fuck out. And then it cuts to this woman, taking her mask off and be like, what, like, what? I was just, like, it's Halloween. So, but I mean, he's pissed and he's like traumatized by this.

So this is kind of the first moment where we're like, whoa, what's going on here? Yeah, no. And it was, I loved that effect. A lot of the monsters and stuff in this movie, I think look fantastic because they're all done practically for the most part. Because you didn't really have a choice at the time. But it does kind of show like, oh, like I appreciated that aspect of things because I was like, oh, this is, it's a trauma for him. It's like a PTSD type situation. But in that same event, in that same vein.

it both makes things seem more credible and less credible. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, because it's something that's like, oh, do you have a trauma from being visited by aliens? Or do you just have a trauma and this is how it's manifesting itself? It comes up even more later when you find out that he, he's going to see a therapist that specializes in rape victims. Yeah. Yeah.

that was a crucial moment, I think, in terms of raising the stakes of what's going on. Like, we can be like, oh, interesting. Alien abduction, like, kidnapped, experimented on. But then you get to, holy shit, like, these physicians and doctors, they're saying, we think you should talk to someone who works with rape victims. Like, that's a huge, huge step. I don't know quite what to make of that. I'm talking about it and I have no idea.

I have no idea. I have no idea why I'm here. I don't know what I'm doing, you know, talking about this. I saw something, they saw something. There was a lot of light. So after this initial thing, he starts to become very paranoid and he's waking up in the night saying that something's in the room. And also his writer's block is. still there. He can't concentrate. And all the while, um, the sun is also having weird memories and

images. Right. And the tensions really start to rise because the wife is like, what is going on with my family? Like, did something happen? Or is he hallucinating and it's influencing our, our young son? Like, what the fuck is going on? And clearly something's wrong. Right. Yeah. And I, And I love, we see like a time jump here too, which I thought was interesting, because it goes from like Halloween to Christmas almost immediately. But I did think it was kind of interesting that he, the sun's like where his feels like it's more in his head, the sun is just like I don't want to go near that spaceship. Because there's like a playground that kids are playing in. And it's got something that kind of looks like a spaceship that's like a jungle gym they're playing on. And he's like, I don't like that spaceship.

And I was like, huh. Like, it is, that was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, and again, it's something where it's just like, it's like, you know, a kid, it would make sense for a kid to be, like, afraid of spaceships, depending on what he's watching and intaking. Not that it looks like these people are, like, watching a lot of TV from what we're seeing or what have you. But it was a cool juxtaposition to see how,

of them are having their trauma manifest itself, which is that one is having actual visions. And one is seeing things and things that are already kind of there, which isn't like, you know, which isn't unreasonable. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, okay. So this is where the movie starts to, we really hit a U-turn, I think. Now, initial experience, fine. Like, maybe something happened. interesting.

They go back to the cabin in the woods, like you said, for Christmas, hoping things will get better. But this is where shit really goes off the rails for me, at least, man. Yes. What do you make of this? Yeah, the Christmas cabin incident, I guess we can put it. Right. Yeah, I thought it was, it does start to call things into question for a couple reasons.

A, I don't, again, I am more of an observer to a lot of the lore surrounding UFOs, most of which I've gotten through you at this podcast. So it strikes me as odd that somebody would have an experience with aliens, and then go back to that area where they had had their first experience, and then they have an even more intense experience. Yeah. And that to me sounds like it would come from somebody who's lying. It's like, no, the first time I had this very surreal incident where it was like touched by,

or I was like touched by light, I thought I saw something with light engulfed the house. That's like, okay, that's a weird phenomenon. And he's like, yeah, and then I went back to the cabin and I got pulled up in their ship and they jab something into my head to like they gave me a shot of something while I was up there and I saw not only did I see a gray this time the flesh colored gray I also saw

little monsters that are like dressed like men that look like the like oh man it's hard to even think of something to compare them to not Jawa's you don't see Jawa's faces but that was another thing where it's just like it's like okay this is cool looking,

but when you tell me that this is what this guy actually experienced, now I'm just like, well, hold up. So you are, this is something that happened to you, that you were comfortable enough to put to screen, and then we see a physical representation of what you had happened to you, and you're like, yeah, that's it. That movie monster that this person was able to develop,

as cool looking as it is and as creepy as it is, is exactly what I had to deal with. That's crazy. Okay. Okay. This is interesting that you say that because we get these little small blue aliens, like you mentioned. They're like in these cloaks. They look very impish and they look so original that I'm like, who can really make the shit up in their head?

This is, okay, I'm going to, full disclosure. I interviewed a woman about having been abducted by aliens when she, was a kid. And she described these beings as almost identical to these little blue creatures in this movie. And of course, Andrew, of course, my first question is, well, had you read the book or had you seen the movie? And she said, no, no, I hadn't. I hadn't. I had a boyfriend who threw the movie on one night. In the minute that little blue creature showed up in the movie, I literally leapt behind the couch and started crying and I made him turn the movie off and I've never seen it again since. So, I mean, again, had she so consciously seen that image before in the movie or had she read the book and she not, I don't want to say lied to me.

I believe something firmly happening to this woman. She's one of the most trustworthy people I've come across in this field. but I did find it interesting that she said she saw these same creatures and never had seen this movie or read the book. So I don't know. I don't know what they're like. Yeah, yeah, because then it's,

and like, don't get me wrong. There are incredible artists that exist in this world. There are people whose job it is. The job is to recreate a possible criminal based on someone's description and those people in those positions are able to do incredible things and amazing recreations

based solely off somebody's description which is something I can't even fathom to have somebody described to you a human face and you to be able to recreate it. So it's even a little bit more understandable that somebody could describe something more fantastical than that and you would be able to recreate that. But when I hear that

somebody, an author especially, of a novelist. And again, I know that's one of the toughest parts about this is this guy makes fiction for a living. But this guy describes these monsters, does not draw them himself to my knowledge, correct? You said somebody else drew the cover of the book. Yeah, yeah. Do, you know, literally, it was like a sketch artist situation where he sat down and described it. So he describes that. Then he describes these other little blue men in robes and stuff.

And then that process is even taken from a drawing and recreated by a studio's special effects department or costume department or what have you. Um, or effects department. And to have that, um, be something that somebody says is exactly what they had the same experience with is a tough pill to swallow for me personally. Yeah, I totally. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And I do... And I don't want to disparage this woman either, because if this was something that was so traumatic that it made her shut off the movie and drove her to tears, like, that's awful.

But it's just the idea, like, we live in a world where things are so often not like coincidences, but like that are that specific. But who knows? You know, that's like that's just wild. that's like Cthulhu type stuff where I don't know if you've ever read the call of Cthulhu not to give any credit to racist

HP Lovecraft, yeah I said it. But he, the whole point of called Cthulhu is this call goes out one night where, and this is the time before social media or movies or anything like that. Or well-made movies anyway, advanced

movies, I don't want to say not well-made. Anyway, people are, you have this phenomenon where people throughout the who have never met, um, are drawing and, and sculpting, um,

this monster exactly the same. Hmm. Um, which is like a, a solid work of fiction. Like there's HP Lovecraft inspired a lot of, right, a whole generation of writers and creators and continues to,

um, inspire people to this day. So it's always that kind of stuff that makes me go like, huh, like it, it's just, that's, that's wild to me.

That's the most wild thing. that I've heard about this movie is that somebody had an experience that they considered to be so similar that in this movie that aspect of this movie freaked to them out. That's crazy to me. Maybe that's what it is. It's not even just that it's

unbelievable. It's just wild. I agree with you and again it goes back to the cover of the book. So many people said they cannot pick up that book to this day or look at it because it's so strikingly similar to what they saw. So

Again, I don't want to ever strip anyone a witness or an experiencer of their experience. I myself struggle with it greatly, Andrew. I mean, you know, on the record and off the record, I'm a very skeptical person of all of this UFO stuff myself. Absolutely. But it's those rare cases where I have no other choice but to be like, huh, something happened to you. I can't say it was an alien. I can't say it was an interdimensional creature or, you know, a spirit. it or this, but I can firmly say, I'm seeing how it's affecting you, and something, you believe

this happened to you. And it's affecting you in ways that I can not even begin to describe. And that is... It scares me that we can't just shove this in a box of they're making it up, or it's regressed physical abuse as a child, and this is the way you painted it to be as an alien abduction to deal with it. Like, that's the biggest way that skeptics will come at these alien abductees is you clearly were abused as a child and this is the way you, uh, you know, put the memory down and painted it into something different. Sure.

That can be said for some people, of course, but end of the day, not all of them. Thousands of people are describing these things who are sane, credible, um, straightforward. We're never abused in their lives. So what is that? What is that? I don't know. Right. Right.

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somewhere skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. And it's one of those things too where it's, it was such a time where it would be hard to even recreate something like that. It was a time when books were a main source of entertainment for people. Bookstores were thriving. Something like this could come. out and get traction in all corners of the world easily. And then you also have something where it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go to the bookstore and specifically go to the section that's about UFO fiction, not even just fiction, like UFO fiction or nonfiction, sorry.

And we find this specifically. This more than likely, especially if it was a New York Times bestseller, just came out and had its own section in the bookstore. or had its own display in the bookstore, and that's just what people saw. And it would also be crazy to think that, like, there's a movie in and of itself. It's somebody walking into a bookstore

and seeing something that has haunted their dreams for years that they very truly believe that they experience on a shelf, like in multiple copies of it, just staring them right back in the face, like that in and of itself. is an experience where it's hard to deny someone the feeling that they have from something like that. Yeah. Because we can't, we weren't in the room and we weren't even there, not even just in the room to when they were, when they were visited.

I would have loved to be in the room when this woman saw this movie for the first time. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like to be the only person that can really vouch for her being so frightened by this that she had to turn it off is the boyfriend that was there at the time. Because aside from that, it's hard to even prove that that's true. But if somebody feels that strongly, especially somebody that you claim is honest that you've dealt with. And I know you've dealt with a lot of not honest people and people who you like, the more you deal with unhonest people, it's easier

to figure out who the ones are that are being honest. Exactly. So you saying that you think somebody is honest and truthful is honestly worth a lot to me. And yet still, it's, it's, it's just, it's, it's just crazy. It is. And it's hard to, um, you know, take that leap over the wall to be like, okay, yeah, I firmly believe you were abducted by aliens. I totally get that, man. In my biggest defense always is, I was not there when it happened. And you said the same exact thing. And that's what it comes down to you. These experience are so personal, so subjective. They come so much baggage and the lens and perception that you view it from, that we can't tell up from down, left, from right.

And, you know, bringing it back to Whitley Streber, this is a moment where it's so dreamlike and nightmarish that he literally gets a gun and tries to hunt down this little blue alien that took him at one point. And we come to find out that he shoots out. the alien and then boom comes out of some weird dream state and he almost shot his fucking wife and killed her. Yo, yo, is that in the book? Is that a real thing that almost happened?

I'm pretty sure. That's, that part too. I was like, whoa. Like, it is, I will say. That seems like a big thing to make up in, uh, in terms of, yes, exactly. The screen adaptation. Now, whether or not it actually happened, we can't say. Um, however, to put something like that, you,

are a popular novelist who is at maybe the height of your career. Now, you could argue that he was having writers block at the time, so maybe he was really reaching for a story to tell. I don't know, and I say height of his career, but I don't know if, like, maybe, I noticed that at least from what I recall, there's nothing in this movie about, like, publishers breathing down his neck, being like, you're going to lose your job if you don't give us this next book, things like that, you know what I mean? So there's nothing in there that would, make it seem like, oh, he had to make this story up or else he wouldn't have anything to push forward. But to do something or to put out something that you were claiming to be true that not only

might make you look crazy, but make you look like someone who almost committed manslaughter is something that you don't do lightly unless you truly believe it. I don't know Whitley-Striever, but you don't say like hey guess what i was so thrown off by this that i almost killed my wife unless you're willing to take whatever heat is going to come with that as well that was a big turning point for me because i was like oh man we just saw this crazy shit but then wow he shows that he might have like these problems are more than just things that he's seeing they almost made him murder somebody that he loves yeah i i think you're right i think this is a turning point for the movie and for Whitley

Streber as well. I think he now realizes whatever's happening. It's not just a figment of my imagination. And even if it is, it's causing me to almost harm my family. So I have to I got to approach this. And for him, it came in the form of going to get these temporal lobe epilepsy tests, which is really interesting. This is kind of what they think, oh, this could be it.

like during these these bouts of epilepsy you can have these uh hallucinations and this and that and the tests come back negative so it's clearly not that um it's something else and i think that's not the answer he was looking for he wanted it to be that so when it's not it's like fuck now i still have to go on and struggle with what this is yeah yeah yeah i know i appreciated that they tried to come up with a like, oh, I can't get a scientific answer for this. Like, this isn't something, this isn't a tumor that I have that's making me see things. This is not like something where I could literally pinpoint it. And what I liked about that even more is it showed that he was, because I feel like a lot of

people, their first step might be therapy, but he went the other direction. And it's just like, no, there's probably some scientific reason as to why this is happening to me. Yeah, and I respect that. Yeah, same. Absolutely. That's not an easy thing to go through. And especially, you know, you have the wound behind his ear that even his wife claims to see.

And then he, you have a doctor being like, yeah, no, there's nothing there. You're fine. Yeah. Two days later. And here's another part. Which I will say, any doctor who's going to be working two days after Christmas, I call it. I'm going to have to call it a question a little bit. That's the most questionable thing about this.

movie. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that's where I was like, now hold on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we can't, I guess we can't really talk about Willie Streber's experiences, Andrew, without acknowledging that this was the first case that came forward where someone said that they were basically, you know, raped by an alien. They had a probe of some sort inserted into the rectum, and it was extremely painful and traumatizing. And for Whit M. Striebel to come forward and straight up be like,

yo, I got raped by an alien. Like, that's a big deal. That's not just saying I was taken, I was experimented on, they messed with my head. He's now saying something that could completely ruin his reputation if it hadn't had been ruined already by trying to murder his wife

apparently. Right. So, I mean, yeah, we have to talk about that. That's where this trope of aliens sticking stuff up, people's butts where this whole thing came from. And again, we can laugh about it, but at the end of the day, like, this is an extremely traumatizing thing. And if anything, I also, I appreciate that they didn't, you know, when that scene happened,

it's not funny. Like, there are things that they play for laughs in this movie. But with that, they took it very seriously, even though it is something that is kind of inherently absurd and something that people do make jokes about quite often, especially when they're talking about people who have experienced trauma from UFOs or claim to have be abducted and claimed to have been probed. That is something that, for a long time, I feel like, has been easy to laugh about it, even almost only recently is something that I feel like people are starting to say, like, well, you know, that's not, that's not funny. For one of two reasons. A, if it did happen to this person,

it's something that's going to be incredibly traumatic, and B, if it's something where they were possibly raped and this is how they're dealing with it, then that's also awful, like, and not something to laugh at. But I feel like for a long time, that's something that people have just actively made jokes about. Yeah. So, I mean, in the balance, that delicate balance in this movie of what's funny and what's not really plays out in these abduction scenes, I think. And, you know, here, here's an exact quote from Whitley Streeper in the movie, quote, these little blue fuckers took me stuck a needle in my skull and put a probe in my rectum.

I mean, that line alone, it's, it carries so much weight in terms of like, it's so absurd. I realize that. But they, you know, they literally, they took, they stripped me of everything, my entire being, my, my, myself, my control, my, my, um, Oh, God, it's just, it's traumatizing. And you don't even know if these aliens realize what they're doing to these people. When the doctor hypnotized me, I was supposed to recall prowlers or something. But in fact, I recall something else. I sure do.

But little blue fuckers about that big. And this is a time, too, where it's still like, you know, we're still in an era where, like, you know, men have to be men. Exactly. And you can't, like, most men who are, who deal with sexual assault don't. reported. Like, even to this day, like the percentage is very low for people that will actually come forward about something like that. So for

somebody to come forward about something like that during a time when that was much less likely, and on such grand a scale, is pretty significant. And I do think adds to the, again, the credence of what he's trying to say. Now, I could also argue that if you are somebody

who is smart enough to write fiction that is critically well received and liked and liked by the general populace, you would know, hey, I had to add in some of these extra details to make me not seem like a crazy person. But it's, you know, that's just where the most difficult part about all of this comes from. It's hard, it would be hard for me not to say that if this story came from somebody who wasn't a fiction writer, I might believe it a little bit. Like, you could literally present this movie exactly how it is, and he's a doctor and not a novelist.

And I'd be like, you know what? There's a lot going on here. There's a lot that could ruin this person's reputation. But when you say it's, like, also a novelist, you're like, yeah, this probably makes for a pretty good book. Yeah. Yeah. And that is the biggest criticism people have of this. And I'm sure that's tough for Whitley as a person.

Oh, sure. And I stress if any of this actually happened. Um, and if it didn't, like, wow, man, kudos for creating like this huge social experiment that completely changed the entire perception of aliens and, uh, stuff moving forward and has become a part of pop culture. I mean, this image of the gray is just so fucking iconic at this point. Um, but yeah. So, okay. So the trauma happens. He's experimented on.

And, um, these aliens are just, they're like. I don't, I don't even know how to describe this. These, these experiences he's having are so dizzying and, like, confusing. He kisses one of the blue aliens at one point. Then he's in this room with these little kids and they've got the masks of the aliens. And he's, you know, half naked reading a magazine in, like, a waiting room. It's just so fucking weird. And that's what always gets me about, about this story specifically is how weird and,

imaginative in every sense of the word it is. And whether this was a choice by the director and the designers of how to convey these experiences, I don't know. But it is so out there that I just, I couldn't tell left from right. I just felt so disoriented when these abduction scenes happened. And it is also something that is very dreamlike, which kind of takes away from the credence of it. I and myself recently in the last few months have been having incredibly vivid dreams. And just this morning had a dream where I was riding in a limo, got into a limo with my wife to these two little people that were in costumes.

At least I thought they were little people. More on that in a second. And I was in this limo with a guy that I used to work with who was driving the limo on the right side for some. reason. And also in the limo was professional wrestler Chris Jericho, and we were talking about the AEW that he works for currently and how he thought, like, there was some event that he was going to where they weren't paying him enough, and it turns out they weren't paying him enough because the coronavirus is currently striking the nation. And then when we get to where we're going in the limo, we take these little people up to this apartment, and they're actually monkeys that we are

paying to play with in a very tiger king-esque type situation, except instead of playing with tiger cubs, we're paying to play with monkeys. It's all this weird, surreal combination of things that have happened in my life recently, and also things that haven't happened recently, that it is hard to look at something in this movie as not being a dream because it plays out so much like a dream. You know, dreams very rarely make perfect, coherent sense. They just don't. I think that's what Willie Streber is struggling with most in this movie is,

what's the dream, what isn't? And I think this is where I do have to give props to the director and Christopher walk in. Like, we never can really tell. And I think they do such a good job in those moments of, is this a dream? or isn't it? And does that even matter? I mean, we have moments where Whitley Streber's claiming that he was, images were implanted in his head of the world being

destroyed or his son dying. And he doesn't know like why these images are coming to him, what the aliens are trying to convey. And it's maddening. Again, we can't tell what is and what isn't in this movie. Just and again, that could be things that are brought on by the stress of not being able to do your job. you usually get paid for. His world is going to end and his son's going to die because he's not going to be able to feed him. Like, you know, there's all kinds of, there are so many ways

that you can interpret that. But in the same note, I gotta say, I really love that this is a very interesting movie to discuss for a lot of these reasons. But I do appreciate, yeah, and I appreciate that they not only show it in a more, more mundane sense, they don't shy away from portraying any of this stuff the way

it is being portrayed. That it is being portrayed as dreamlike is kind of a testament to Whitley Streber who wrote the film. Who knows what was changed while they were directing it. Ideally, the director was going to be making a lot of those calls on that day. He couldn't get, you know, Whitley Streber couldn't get Christopher Walken to not, quote, unquote, act crazy. But there is just, it again adds more credence to at least this guy being not that crazy. So in order to not feel crazy, he then starts going to this therapy group, an alien abduction support group. And these are real.

These are happening across the world right now. I guarantee, well, maybe not right now, obviously, pre-COVID and most COVID. But as things I've been to him, I spent a weekend in upstate New York myself with a group of abductees and experiencers. And yeah, these people get together and talk about their experiences. And, you know, Whitley just he, I don't think this is. really for him. He doesn't want to be a victim like a lot of these people claim to be. And it wasn't

really for him. But it was interesting to see that, okay, he's open to the fact that maybe I'm not the only one that's experiencing this and this could be real. Other people could be experiencing this. So that was interesting. And the fact that his wife was with them.

I think that's another important part of all this too is his wife, Anne, and what she's going through, having to deal with her husband just spiraling out of control with all this, almost killing her, scaring their son. And what's,

is he going crazy or not? And, you know, she's a supportive wife in one sense. But at the same time, she's like, I'm like ready to take my son and get out of here if this dude keeps going crazy. So that's got to be a really hard role to play as an actress,

but also in real life. Like, what did Anne Streber think of her husband coming forward with all this. Like, how would it affect them as a couple? And as we see, not very well. My question, and this may or may not have any bearing on what's going on. I want to make that clear. Are they still together? They were together until her dying day, which unfortunately was a few years ago. Ah, awful. Yeah. And she fully supported him. She supported him through thick and thin. he went on to write another like three books in the Comenian trilogy as it were

and we'll get to that really yeah this was not communion was not the only book about this um she was with him in until um we lost her so yeah wow oh that's that's awful i mean hopefully it wasn't anything too terrible people do pass but that's yeah that's very unfortunate it's nice to i that i will say that is nice to hear that they were um together together until a point like that because it's got to be it couldn't it couldn't have been easy for her it just couldn't have like you were saying yeah no matter if it was real or not like that struggle right had always had to always be in her head every single day of wow either this is happening or my husband is a complete fraud and like what do i do i do i stay with them do i not like where's the moral compass here but again neither of us were there and

we don't know. So that's what's most frustrating about this whole thing, I think, is that, like, we, we can debate whether this actually happened or not till, you know, our dying days ourselves. But it's frustrating to know, we will never know if this truly happened or not. Sure. I mean, if, if anything, that's, that's what he's going through as well. He wants to know if this is real. And he finally confronts the aliens himself about, I want to know what the fuck. is going on with me. So he goes back to the cabin alone where this all started, supposedly. Right. And, um... Brings his video camera. That was cool. He brought his video camera with him. He's like,

if I'm gonna, like, prove to anyone this is happening, I gotta get these fuckers on film. So he brings his camera. He is dressed to the nines again. He's got his suit on, his fedora. This is one of the most amazing images in this movie. Um, he approaches the woods with the bright light. And I just love this back. shot of him. Like, he's looking like almost like a men in black type guy and he's like about to venture into the belly of the beast to finally confront

the aliens, which was interesting. And I love some of the imagery in this movie. It was just beautiful in that sort of 80s gritty way. And I think any time we were out at the cabin, like, I just loved it. I loved the

cinematography and the visuals that they brought to this. But yeah, back to like the plot. All right, so final confrontation with the aliens. Well, not so much, I guess. Not so much. But he enters the quote-unquote craft. And here's the little blue guys.

Here's the tan beige guys. And this was one of my favorite moments. The little blue guy sees the camera. And he's like, nah, nah, man. No filming. No filming. I love that moment. It was such a weird, like, it was cute, but it was kind of fun.

I feel like they were shooting most of the movie and then realized, like, huh, he's got his video camera out quite a bit. We've got to make that comeback, but there's no footage of this. So let's just have the alien put the kibosh on. I kept wondering, the whole movie, I was like, I was like, oh, you know, especially when you, like, when somebody who's written, like, it's something's written by somebody who knows narrative structure, it's, it's, it's check off his gun.

Like, you don't introduce something like that. unless it is going to serve some sort of purpose. Otherwise, it's just, it's not good. It's not good. It's just not good screenwriting. I'm sure there are some people that argue that it is, yada, yada. But that is a principle that is used for a very good reason. You don't introduce something like that unless it's going to come into play.

And it just kind of, it does in a very, in a way that is funny, but also just very anti-climatic. I was like, oh, okay. So we had that there the whole time just for him to be told to turn it off later. Like it could have not been in there at all. Or have him filmed the entire experience and then when he goes to play it back, it's like gone, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, there you go. Boom.

Look at that. Look, we just rewrote comedian. Yeah. Well, okay. So he's in the craft with the aliens. And this is the most like David Lynch-esque weird scene I've ever seen in a movie. it's so absurd it's cool it's unapologetic it's it's everything and I love it I absolutely love it he starts dancing with the aliens yeah communicating with them in like sign language

almost what did you make of this final sort of competition I appreciate it again I I would love to this was something where I would want to like read the read the book or at least read that section in that account to see how close it was to what he was dealing with because it felt so so bonkers but so specific that I was like ha

like this is not like it's not something that anybody I don't want to say it's not something that anybody would make up because that's just not true but it's it's something that is hard to make up it's something that is hard to just be like no this like listen

you can't say that this didn't happen to me because just look how bat-shit crazy it is. Look how unique it is, at least as far as I'm concerned. Are there a lot of UFO stories about people dancing with aliens? Not that I can recall. There you go. This is what I love about this, though. This scene is walking, or I should say Willie Streeper has this line that he says to the alien.

He says, quote, I am you, you are me, and we are. here. I'm the dreamer and you are the dream. And that alone... Which is a callback to an earlier scene too. Yeah. Yep. It's almost like he's in like he, it's almost like he's looking into the future earlier on. Yep. Exactly. And I love that about this where he's taking control of the situation that he did not feel in control of

throughout this entire journey. And I, I just, he didn't get the answers that he sought, I think, but he he confronted this presence that it invaded his life and he said look whether to dream or not I'm a part of this and that's where I think the whole idea of communion comes in is if you're going to do this to me unwillingly and I'm never going to truly know what you're doing I'm at least going to like I'm going to I'm going to lead every now and again and I think that's what he's kind of showing is like if you want to do this like I have a say in it and I think that's good. You know, he's taking back control of all the shit that's happened to him, almost ruined

his life, his family, and look, you can do this, we can meet up, maybe you'll slowly give me answers or not, but like, let me be a part of it. And I respect that as a character study, at least. Yeah, yeah. And it's also interesting in that, again, we have somebody who had an experience, goes back to the place that they were where they had that experience and has a more intense experience and then goes back again and has an incredibly tense and intense and vivid experience which is it's almost so insane it's saying that it's believable if that makes sense yeah like that's that's crazy to me like that's but again he's like actively saying this narratively it works out pretty well the rule of threes applies to a lot of things um and not just comedy

i have but to have that like heightened every time he goes back um is it's just crazy it's crazy man it's crazy i i i like how often do people who claim to be abducted revisit the site where they are abducted and if they do are they abducted again right rarely if ever, at least in my experience with interviewing these people, it is something they try to regress or forget about. And even if they embrace

the experience, they're not going to try to put themselves back in that situation. So, yeah, I mean, again, if this is all true and Whitley did keep going back to the site where it happened, I credit him for really, again, taking control of the situation, facing his demons, as it were. Again, you're right.

storytelling-wise, it's awesome. Like, yeah, let's figure this out. Does he? I don't know. He wakes back up after this experience in his car, and it almost seems like it was all a dream again, but we will never truly know. But I think what's really, really cool after this,

this final kind of confrontation, is he goes back home. He's at an art museum with his wife, and they start really talking about what it could be and what it could represent. And then it dawns on Whitley Streber. Oh, my God. This is the story I have to write.

And boom, we've gone to that meta level where everything that's happened to him is now going to be his new project. And hence writer's block is gone. And he says, Whitley is back. One of the most Christopher walking moments of the movie. Yeah, at a very Forrest-Gump-esque kind of moment.

to just like, oh, I'm gonna like, hey, who knows? Maybe that conversation happened exactly the way it happened between him and his wife. But it was something where I was like, man, this is pretty, pretty convenient. Yeah, yeah, it is. And again, like how this story unfolds. I truly never know. But, okay, so he starts writing communion, the book, and he is on a fucking role. And then boom, the alien shows up.

in his home in New York City. And big alien head, floating in midair, and what does he do? He embraces it. He, it's finally this moment of, you are me, I am you, wherever the story is going. I'm now a part of it. And we get Eric Clapton coming in again with the guitar. So the receiver and his wife and kid go on the roof to look up at the sky. And that's communion.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, I like that last shot, especially because, you know, weren't no drones back then. So you would have had to get somebody in a helicopter and get up there to get that shot, which is, you know, pretty impressive. Here's, I want to get to some conclusions, Andrew, where, what we think of this thing overall. There's, there's one thing I want to bring up. There's one part during the last alien encounter where Christopher Walken is dancing with the aliens, like we mentioned. and he literally shrugs at what looks like someone off camera or to himself for the aliens.

But I think whatever he was shrugging at to me, that one moment, it encapsulates the feeling in the world of this movie for me overall. We can't tell what's real. What is? If Wacken is acting so well that it's Wittley thinking, what the fuck am I doing here? Or Wacken saying what the fuck am I doing in this movie? Like, I don't know. But it's just so weird And I loved that about it

It's messy Like we I think we can both agree This kind of a messy film Never quite hits the mark I think it wants to But I don't know What do you think man It just felt so organic to me

This movie Yeah Yes I would agree with that I also think that it's interesting That the movie doesn't try To make it a movie Like narratively of course It works out

like we said in ways that you would expect a movie to work out, but they don't try to, it didn't at least, except for the moments that are purposely fantastical, him being on the bus and him being like, even, that's another one. Like it felt so grounded like this woman crying and asking if he knows if this bus went to the end of the line and then him imagining her or not imagining her as a praying mantis

and then seeing everybody as praying mantises, is very dreamlike. And again, feels not like it's fantastical without being fantastical, without embellishing too much. It feels like something that this guy might have experienced, and it could be the experience of someone who is not well mentally. So because of that, because it didn't shy away from a lot of that stuff, there's elements in this movie that really worked for me.

I don't know why my voice went up there right there. But it's, it's, there's things about it that feel like somebody who is trying to put their experience to film without making it seem unbelievable. But then there are elements where it does just feel wholly unbelievable. I will say, unfortunately, a large part of that is Christopher Walken. And it's not even like he's a bad actor, but I realized while watching this that I haven't seen a ton of movies. with Christopher Walken in it. I'm honestly more familiar seeing him and like, I watch the episodes of SNL that he's hosted hundreds of times.

I've seen him more of being like the Christopher Walken that we all know. So it was interesting to see, and like I'd have seen like Deer Hunter, where he's much more reserved and it was earlier on his career. So it's interesting to see that that like, oh, it's very Walken-esque kind of designation. of him doesn't come from nowhere. Like this is a movie that should be taken kind of seriously and it doesn't seem like he does take it

very seriously, even as an actor. Like he's just kind of like goofing around and doing his like doing his stick. Yeah. That happens to a lot of actors from that generation, especially where they get older and they become almost caricatures of themselves.

Like Pacino or even to a lesser extent sometimes like De Niro, but even De Niro can like reel it in. Like there's, there's elements of this that just felt like it's like, wow, nobody really had control over him. And that kind of takes credence away from the story that they're trying to tell for me. There are moments where I think walk in is very genuine in his portrayal, especially

during the more traumatic parts or like the, the moments with his wife. I think he was able to rein it in and take this thing seriously. but all the other moments, I do wonder, like, how tight of leashed the director have on this guy. And I don't think any. I think we say a lot of improv in this. In the script, too, there's scenes in this film where I'm like, they're just letting the actors go to see what comes out. And I appreciate that and I respect that. But then there are times where you're like, guys, the screenplay was written by the writer of the book.

This is his story. Like, let's at least explore that. And I think there are moments throughout this film where it was just walking, testing his acting chops, not in the best of ways. Because I think he loses sight of the character he's playing. And like you said, he becomes a character of himself. And I think there's a lot of those in this movie. But it almost made the more serious moments for me, more powerful. I have a quote here from the filmmaker, which I wanted to share too.

Cool. He says, the director, I should say, says, quote, at the time this movie was made. As filmmakers, we had to fight for the right to make it ambiguous and agnostic in regard to the issue of the alien presence. Various powerful film companies wanted a straight horror film or an outright affirmation of alien existence, which would have undermined the unbiased point of view. The psychological dimensions of Whitley Strieber's extraordinary book upon which the film is based continues to fascinate me and the issues raised in the film continue to engage Miller. I really appreciate that. I'm not going to lie. That does give the movie a lot more heft for me to know that they were going in to try to make it ambiguous. And I think that did shine through in a lot of aspects. That's pretty cool. I like that. Yeah. And it almost mirrors the book as well. One of my good buddies is Greg Bishop. He's a UFO researcher. He said this about the book. He said Whitley's book was a watershed document that made millions aware of the phenomenon of UFO abductions. It defined and codified the experiences for thousands of people, many of whom wrote to Streber and his late wife, Anne, with their own stories. His influence can truly be described as iconic.

And I have to agree with him on that. I mean, this is one of the most iconic books ever written on the topic of alien abduction. I think it always will be. And the damn book cover is what always gets people. So, I mean, no matter what actually happened to Whitley Street, or not, his place in UFO literature and the phenomenon overall is solidified. And I think this movie, although I'm looking right now at Rotten Tomatoes, it has a 20%. Jesus Christ.

Wow. It didn't do well at all. It didn't make a lot of money either. I mean, it's to the point where it was hard for us to even track this movie down as we discussed. Oh, my God. Yeah. Like, impossible. Yeah.

So, I mean, it's tough. It was difficult. Like, unfortunately, the easiest way that I saw is to buy the DVD on, like, DVD and I have Blu-ray on Amazon, which don't do that to a poor Amazon worker right now. Don't make a group of people that are only supposed to be shipping out essential things. Wrap up your communion DVD and send it out to you for the love of God, please. Like, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't tell anybody to torrent it either. and I'm not sure how big your UK audience is, but if you get a free week subscription to Stars Watch,

you can watch it in the UK, I believe. I was really excited because I was like, oh, I just sign up for Stars, and I get that for like a week, and then I can watch it there. I think it's much more easily accessible. I think even Google, like when I looked up, like renting it through Google Play,

even it was, I could only do it through Euros. So you can't, I think it's, it might have been a bigger hit overseas than it was here, which is interesting. because the book was so successful. That honestly paints a lot of this on a whole new light for me. I did not know the book was that successful. One million times more than the movie ever was.

Crazy. Yeah. Which was probably the opposite of what they wanted. But it has become a cult classic. And this was like I mentioned my first time seeing it. And I mean, it stands on its own, I think, aside from the book as being one of the strangest movies out there on this topic. Yeah, dude.

And it's, that's more real to the phenomenon and how it plays out with abductees, I think, than anything, than any, like, horror or sci-fi movie truly could. It's confusing. It's murky. And it's, we'll probably never know what actually happened. And that's where we find ourselves today, I think, with alien abduction more than ever. So I got to ask you overall, Andrew, out of five alien dance parties, what do you give this movie? Ooh, I would give it a two and a half. It really, there are elements of it that I really enjoyed,

but I will say watching it was a smidge of a slog for me. There were more down moments in the movie for me than there were up moments. I will say in the last half hour or so, it really starts to pull itself together. But if there was somebody, and I can't believe I'm even saying this, somebody other than like a Christopher Wocken, you know, who would have been great in this movie, like Richard Dreyfus. Like somebody like that. Somebody who you really want

to believe. But because it was Christopher Wachan, and because of the performance he was giving, that dragged down a lot of this movie for me. Yeah. So I would give it, I would give it a two and a half. There are still elements of it. And honestly, that's

just in watching it. Discussing the movie, it would get like four out of five alien dance parties. Because I do, I can only appreciate how much we got out of this discussion was much more than I expected. It really, it really adds to the discussion in a way that I think is undeniable. And I'm sure we're not the first ones to talk about this. You know what I mean? Like it's, it really brings a lot to the table as far as the UFO lore and the discussion and the things around that.

just as a movie, I'm not going to disagree with that 20% on Rotten Tomatoes. Let me put it that way. Hey, that's fair, man. I think you're right. I think it's a movie overall. I'm going to go with a three on this one. Sure. There were things about it I loved more than I probably should.

And a lot of that had to do with the cinematography and that sort of dreamlike feel throughout. I was willing to take that journey. But I think you're right. I think Christopher Walken was the biggest thing, Roadblock, in terms of this story being portrayed the way it probably should have been. But at the same time, I thought his performance was endearing in some sense of the word. Sure. I get that. He brought a unique and, I don't know, a unique approach to Whitley Streber as a character.

And maybe that's what this thing needed overall. I don't know. But end of the day, yeah, I think I'm going to go with three out of five alien dance parties. But I would suggest if anyone can watch the movie, just watch it. It's fun. It was interesting to explore, but I would recommend reading the book first and foremost before ever watching this thing to get a more accurate portrayal. And you know what? As far as like getting movies made or is concerned, who knows if actually no.

I was going to say maybe without Christopher Walken, this movie wouldn't have. have gotten made. It does, it is interesting to me that the studio would have such pushback, um, as far as like what they were trying to play, portraying the novel as straightforward as it seems that they did, especially with the novel being a success. I would love to see like a full on investigative report or documentary about this, just the process of getting this movie made. Because it's interesting to me that's something that could be a New York Times bestseller that would lend itself to a movie so easily would have as much pushback and then have as much pushback and then have what seemed to be like a smaller budget than you would expect for something like this,

and yet still have somebody like Christopher Walken. And that aspect of things is very interesting to me. Yeah, I would love to see. Just knowing what I know about getting movies made. Right. Right. You do have to wonder, like, how did all these elements come together? And I'm sure that would be a story on its own.

But for anyone out there who's been on the fence about alien abduction, read the book. Just read the book. That's all I'm going to tell them. And then come out on the other side with, you know, the possibility of watching the movie. I'm babbling right now. I don't even know what I'm saying. That's how dizzy this entire story is. Just read the book communion and take it for what it is. And yeah. Well, before we go, Andrew, I got to ask you, my man, what do you got coming up? Is there anything you can share with us? I know you're doing a lot of stuff. digitally right now.

Yeah, what do you up to? So I work a lot with a theater company in New York called Random Access Theater, who are a wonderful group of people. I've been very good to me and have been great to work with. And they do a series known as the drunk texts where they take either a classical text or a new text made classical,

and they do semi-staged readings of them while getting progressively drunk. They are drunk, or they play drinking games as they're doing it. They encourage the audience to play drinking games along with them. And if you hear something like that and be like, man, I wish I could make my way out to New York to see something like that. That is no longer a problem currently because they've been doing, they just launched doing those digitally through Zoom calls. And it's just as crazy as it sounds. They started at the beginning of last month or this month with a drunk reading of the importance of being.

which they just did that text of on the Facebook page of the People's Improv Theater in New York City. And coming up on May 1st, they'll be doing a reading of a Shakespearean version of the Star Wars prequels, which is just as fun and crazy as it sounds as they're getting drunk. And then on May the 4th, they will be doing a drunk. reading of a Shakespearean version of the first Star Wars film, A New Hope, which I adapted for them in, I took the new hope, a new hope, and filed it down to 20 pages of Shakespearean dialogue. It's going to be silly and fun, and we're going to get drunk while we're reading it, and you can watch it for free. You can, of course, donate to them as you're watching it if you

feel so inclined. They love that. But yeah, on May the 4th, 930, p.m. Eastern Standard Time. Log on to Facebook and go to the Facebook page of the People's Improv Theater in New York City. I'm also in a podcast that's been coming out pretty regularly called Buried Stereo, which is a play on old-timey radio. It's like a satire of old-timey radio shows. They've got three different shows that they made up specifically for this podcast that

you'd almost swear were real radio shows at the time. So if you like old-timey radio, definitely check those out. They're super fun. If you want to check out my other, my podcast, Half White's on the Black Man. We are in a smid of a hiatus right now, but the old episodes are still a lot of fun to listen to. We play some improv games, all that good stuff. Yeah, I'm out there. Just keep yours field.

Follow me on Twitter at Sanford Minus Sun or check me out on Instagram at Halfwhite Son of the Blackman. But, yeah, May 4th, that would be the biggest thing. If you like Star Wars, if you like Shakespeare, ooh, have we got something to you? That's awesome, man. Yes, for anyone listening, Andrew and I are both in the theater world. And we are taking a big hit right now. I mean, movies and television shows are too, but we are a live audience medium. And that's really tough for us right now.

So we're adapting. Companies are trying to figure out how they can. can still thrive and do what they do best, and that's make theater. So I'm glad to see that that company is doing that. Definitely people go check. Yeah, man. There's some of the hardest working people I've ever worked with before. I can't say enough nice things about them.

So give it a peek. It's fun, and it's even more fun if you're having a couple of drinks. Always. Everything is, especially in communion. So, brother, I got to thank you again for doing this for coming on. Thank you, buddy. This is one of the longest reviews I think I've ever done of a movie, it deserves it. I think it truly does.

Yeah. And I know this isn't the last time we're going to be doing this. I'm probably going to hit you up in a week or so to do another one. But that sounds amazing. I want to throw something to your audience a little bit of a, what's the word? A survey. Ryan had talked about doing another alien movie. And I pitched the faculty. And I think rightfully so, because it is a little bit more fiction it's entirely fiction based and more off of it's basically just like a modern retelling of invasion of the body snatchers um but i would say what movie would people like us to cover because i i felt bad not having any suggestions um but if there are more abduction movies out there maybe especially ones that can create such a discussion like communion did i would be

totally down to dive in and especially because they will probably be things that I have not seen before. So I would say to your audience, if you have listened to this entire almost two hours of this episode, and maybe we can put this on Twitter as a survey or something

like that too. Totally. What movies would you recommend that are abduction films that we could check out and pick apart like we did now? I absolutely love that.

We're going to, I will definitely put that survey out when this airs, and we will. Yeah, let's hear from the audience. What do you guys want us to review? And maybe we can invite some people on to give their own thoughts and opinions as well. So they're not to listen to us, babble for two hours. This was so much fun. Thank you for helping me not go insane. And to everyone out there, stay safe, be healthy, and we will see you on the other side. So thank you, Andrew. Thank you, buddy. Anytime. This is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.

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