Somewhere in the Skies - Buried for 74 Years: Edward Ruppelt’s 1952 Flying Saucer Talk | Full Audio

Episode Date: September 19, 2026

For more than seven decades, this extraordinary recording remained buried in government archives. Now, as part of the PURSUE Tranche 6 UFO file release, the complete 1952 “Flying Saucer Talk” by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, the U.S. Air Force officer who led Project Blue Book, is finally available to hear. Recorded on March 26, 1952, Ruppelt discusses the Air Force investigation into flying saucers, including credible military and pilot sightings, unexplained cases, activity near sensitive installations, radar observations, extraordinary speeds, and efforts to gather better photographic and scientific data. Despite extensive investigation, a significant percentage of cases remained unexplained. More than 70 years later, the parallels are striking: military witnesses, radar detections, unusual performance characteristics, sensitive locations, limited data, and a persistent percentage of cases that resist conventional explanation. Listen to Edward J. Ruppelt’s complete 1952 presentation, newly released in PURSUE Tranche 6. Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ Send us a voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/SomewhereSkiesPod Substack: https://ryansprague.substack.com/ All socials and books: https://linktr.ee/somewhereskiespod Email: [e-mail] Email: [e-mail] Opening theme song by Septembryo Closing song by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2026 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #UFO #UAP #ProjectBlueBook #EdwardRuppelt #FlyingSaucers #PURSUE #UFOHistory #UFOFiles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19 speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility, and Optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad?

I get it. I'm Siaiaa and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today, I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.

where some see heroes and others see egos Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes a fad to some the future of money to others we see crypto's trillion dollar swings the end of jobs or the end of human struggle we see the endless funds fueling the AI hype while others follow the noise

we follow the money learn more at Bloomberg.com hear that it's your money calling it wants a promotion elevate your savings with the scotia high-interest savings account always earn high regular interest rates that grow the more you save and invest conditions apply visit scotia bank.com slash h-i-sa to learn more scotia bank you're richer than you think hey guys ryan spragge here from somewhere in the skies so as i'm sure you all know by now the Pentagon through the Pursue Initiative recently released Trench Six of UFO files, videos, and audio. And within Trench Six is a remarkable piece of UFO history.

It's a previously classified 1952 audio recording of Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, the first director of the U.S. Air Forces Project Blue Book. In this audio, Ruppelt is speaking to scientists at MIT Lincoln Lab about the flying saucer problem that was going on at the time. What makes this recording so compelling isn't just its age or secrecy. It's how familiar the conversation sounds more than 70 years later. In the audio, Rupelt discusses highly credible witnesses, objects exhibiting unusual speeds and maneuvers, and cases that resist conventional explanation. He also stresses the struggle to separate genuine anomalies from misidentifications and noise.

And, you know, the terminology has changed from flying saucers, then to UFOs, and now UAP. But many of the fundamental questions remain almost identical. So today, we're going to listen to the entire one-hour presentation that Rupout gave to these MIT scientists. And as you listen, I want you to keep something in mind. This isn't a modern-day congressional hearing. It's not a whistleblower interview. and it's definitely not a Pentagon briefing. We got to remember this is 1952,

and in many ways, we are still having the same conversation today about UFOs, which says a lot about the mystery and about how the government chooses to investigate it. So I hope you enjoy the audio, and I want to thank you for listening to Summer in the Skies. Please take just a few moments to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

It helps us out tremendous. But without further ado, thanks to the Pursue Trench Six release and the work of people like Representative Eric Berlinson. Here is Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, in his own words, discussing the Flying Saucer Mystery more than seven decades ago. Enjoy. This medium has been declassified in compliance with applicable executive order, statutes, and regulations. Time for all good men to come to the aid of their country now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. Now is the time for all good men. I'm pressing with my voice straight at the microphone and my mouth separated from the microphone by a distance of about 15 inches.

I expect that the speaker will put out approximately this volume and I will now, as before, turn around slowly. That's my word store of the blackboard. This I'm now doing, talking straight into the blackboard as if I were drawing some diagrams. I'm then going to turn around slowly again now to face the audience. I am separated from the microphone by a somewhat greater distance as if I were slightly leaning backwards.

Right around the zero, that's the desirable level. If, for example, we turn the game down. Do you wish you could just hit Skip? skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem.

where some see heroes and others see egos Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes a fad to some the future of money to others we see crypto's trillion dollar swings the end of jobs or the end of human struggle we see the endless funds fueling the AI hype while others follow the noise

we follow the money learn more at Bloomberg.com hear that it's your money calling it wants a promotion elevate your savings with the scotia high-interest savings account always earn high regular interest rates that grow the more you save and invest conditions apply visit scotia bank.com slash h-i-sa to learn more scotia bank you're richer than you think I couldn't get to appear in about 1947. You're possibly familiar with them to a certain extent following the newspaper reports. The first ones were cited by Kenneth Arnold in June, in 1947, out in Idaho.

Now, I'll refer to them as these things because we have no idea what we're dealing with. The newspapers and radio played them up to a great degree at that time, and consequently introduced a little bit of, probably a little bit of mass hysteria or something like that into the problem. They flared up for about, well, spasmodically for about two years, and then the things died down to a certain extent.

The Air Force took over this project soon after the first sighting because the public demanded an explanation of these objects. In August of 1949, the Air Force came out with a, report, supposedly a final report of this, where they reached a few conclusions. Now, they had some specialists in certain fields working on this problem, and you might be interested in knowing who they were. There was a Dr. A. J. Hineck, an astronomer at Ohio State, Dr. G. Valley, the Scientific Advisory Board, a doctor, Fitz, the Aeromedical Lab, I believe he was a psychologist,

Iran Corporation, Air Weather Service, Cambridge, field. station and the US Department of Commerce Weather Bureau. All those people took the reports, I believe they had about 300 reports at that time. They took the reports and read them over and came up with their conclusions. All their conclusions varied to a certain extent. They all agreed that they didn't know exactly what they were. However, they were obviously no direct threat to the United States, so they didn't pay too much more attention to them. The Air Force came up with several conclusions in that report. One of them was that it was a mild case of war of mass hysteria

due to one might say warreners or just over. Some of them were due to psychopathical people or not something like that trying to create an excitement or get publicity or due to pure hoaxes. And the other one was that they were due to misinterpretation of conventional objects. Well since that time, several years has passed, we've been able to go back and review these conclusions a little bit. We've been able to drop out all except the misinterpretation of conventional objects. Going back, we have approximately 800 cases now on record, and only about 2% of those are actual hoaxes or psychopathological people

who just don't know what they see. The misinterpretation of known objects is still, of course, still, of course, a large factor. I mean, that could possibly account for all of them. However, it's a little bit doubtful. We've gone through these reports and come up with the fact that about 20% are very good reports offered by very reliable people and are just absolutely no conclusions can be drawn. The mass hysteria factor has gone out because the newspapers haven't played this up for

the last approximately three years. There's occasional florees, but nothing to get excited about it all, and still reports continue to come in. We dropped this project in 1949, as I said, as a special project, and I'm doing this information as regular intelligence material since that time. We've decided, or about last October, we decided there possibly was enough material

now to reopen this case, so we, The center appointed a permanent project engineer, which I'm the project engineer, and we reviewed all this stuff. We took all the cases that we had, reworked them, filed them all in a neat file so we could tell what we had. We went through and crossed indexed all the material so that we could get an idea of the different factors that were involved in these reports. We came up with some results. I won't say they're outstanding results. We don't know what the results mean. But I'm lucky.

I didn't realize we've been at such a large audience here, so we didn't bring these slides along. I don't know whether you can be in the back room, see this print. I'll pass it around and you can get an idea. This is a plot of the sightings in the United States. A list does not include the, we have sightings outside of the United States,

but we're not too worried about those at the present time. We're more interested in the United States. I'll explain this a little bit to you since you can't see it. We have certain areas of the United States where there are concentrations. In Dayton and Columbus, Ohio, their concentrations. Now this is possibly due to two things. One of them is the fact that the people in that area knew that all the activity in this project was taking place in that area,

and consequently they were doing a little bit more reporting. Another thing is of all the experimental flying was being done around right field. And we still have a lot of trouble with that. With that, people call in and say, I just saw a great big light, go over 5,000 miles an hour. It turns out it's an airplane carrying a flare, or something like that. So we've disregarded that concentration.

However, around all the ports in the United States, San Francisco, Los Angeles, the coastal area around New York City and New Orleans, there's concentrations. Around Los Alamos and the Albuquerque area, there's concentrations. Around white sands, there's concentrations. And down here at Camp Hood, Texas. Now this Campwood, Texas concentration was due to an outbreak of odd lights about two years ago.

They never did determine exactly what the lights were. They were a special, we might say a special type of report that haven't occurred again, and we haven't paid too much attention to that. But the ones around Oak Ridge and the ones around Albuquerque may possibly mean something we don't know. The rest of the reports are pretty well scattered out around the United States. States. The, you plot these reports up by years, they started in the West Coast, up around in the northwest, around Washington, Oregon, Idaho in 1947. The next year they were, they tended to be on the East Coast to a certain extent, and from then on they were just spread out all of the

United States. There was no, no pattern. We've plotted the frequency of these reports again. You'll see that it doesn't vary too much, year from year to year. This large peak down here, this large peak down here occurred right after the first sighting by this Arnold out in Idaho, and it was undoubtedly. A lot of it was due to mass hysteria people wanting to get their names in the paper. However, you can see it tapered off, and it reaches a peak right in, see, this is June in July, and every year almost it's reached a peak in there. It's also peaked to a certain extent here, and it reaches a peak in there. It's also peaked to a certain extent here, and it reaches a peak. January and then again there's a peak here in December. Now there's actually no direct pattern to that but there's enough of a pattern that it plants a seeded down in your mind. You sort of wonder why this thing should run a cycle like that. In these two years 47 and 48 there was a lot of newspaper publicity. However in 49, 50 and 51 it was very little newspaper publicity and the reports from 4950 and 51 are mostly from military.

sources. The civilians have dropped out because possibly they didn't know where to report this stuff or they weren't interested in it. The Air Force came out and said that there was nothing to it so they just quit making reports. However, military has continued to make reports. I should say military and a few airlines pilots are covered in these two years. We've taken the reported shapes. We have a lot of questions. People say, well, what are people reporting? So we've broken it down into shapes. In this segment here, there were no shapes reported. Somebody just called in her old letter and said,

I saw something, so we've had to disregard it. This segment right here represents some type of an astronomical body. I mean, you could say it was that either a bright light in the sky or a streak of light that could have been a meteor. We've lumped all those together. In this section, our disc are spherical-shaped objects. We've lumped those together because we don't believe that people can tell if they're seeing a disc or a small.

unless they should happen to see it both in the bottom view and edgewise to determine its disc. So we've lumped those all together. Some of these could be balloons. I mean, there's no doubt about that. They could be weather balloons. However, contrary to popular opinion, these things, they are definitely not all balloons. These are shapes that just reported as oval shapes.

It's difficult to tell what they are. Miscellaneous is almost anything. vapor trails probably actually were vapor trails of aircraft. There's one small segment in here, which is only 6 tenths of one percent of all 800 reports, and that is reports of groups of lights going through the sky. Now we've had quite a bit of difficulty with those because the reports are usually from pretty good sources, and they'll see, oh, anywhere from 6 to 20 lights in a formation going streaking across the sky. Well, it's almost impossible that that you would, that you would,

find six meteors together. I understand it's possible to see two of them together that would appear to be in formation, but no more than that. Certain percentage, 1% are reported to be balloons. Now these are balloons that we've not been able to establish the origin. In other words, we don't, they're just balloons floating over the United States and they're probably meteorological balloons that have gotten loose from some station and have burst when they were supposed to. Well, two and a half percent resemble actual aircraft. We've had quite a bit of discussion as to whether or not these objects could possibly be some highly developed aircraft type that the Soviets have.

We've almost been able to throw that out because a small percentage of reports that even mention any shape due to aircraft that would resemble aircraft. This percentage here are reported to be rockets or cigar-shaped objects. Now, once again, we've gone into that quite thoroughly and have found that, and it's common knowledge, that any bright light traveling through the air will burn an image in your eye and you'll have some persistence there, and it will appear to be elongated when actually it's just a round source of light. That's some of the shapes that we've had. Now, down in getting back to this disc or spherical-shaped objects, these things are always silent. I mean, if we want to assume that this object we're dealing with is a dish-shaped thing,

these are always silent, and they're usually highly maneuverable, although lately the reports that have been coming in have neglected to put this 90-degree turn business in. They just go over at a great rate of speed. But the fact that they're silent is quite interesting because we have no knowledge of any type of power plant that would be completely silent. Now, these are the types of people that send in our reports. This segment here are civilians. And most of these reports came in when the project was first initiated back in 1947-48.

This black segment here are reports from military sources. And there we've put them in as just ground officers, usually not flying officers. At least the reports are not made from the air. We have a small segment here of radar returns that we've been unable to explain. This section right here are reports from civilian pilots who were airborne at the time of the sighting. This segment in here, especially is the one we're very interested in. There are reports from airline pilots, from tower operators and balloon observers.

Now these balloon observers are normally people like the General Mills crews that launch these high altitude balloons. And here we have technically trained personnel such as scientists, engineers, and so forth. This segment, as I said, are the ones that we're very much interested in. Now, airline pilots are, we consider very reliable because they're very, well, they don't like to stick their neck out and make them on these reports unless they're absolutely sure they saw something. They received from very unfavorable publicity during this last rash of reports. or the first time, I should say, in 47 and 48 and 80, absolutely refused to give us reports unless they're completely sold that they saw something.

I've talked to quite a few of the pilots, and one of them made a statement if he looked out his window and saw a V2 rocket or something like that flying wingtip to wingtip with him over Spokane, he wouldn't tell anybody about it. I mean, he never reported the Air Force or to anybody because they'd just say it was crazy and probably ground him. So that's the big difficulty we have in getting reports.

some airline pilots. We do hear through the great vine that they see an awful lot of odd things and that they don't report, especially over in the Near East, Iran, and Middle East, they should say Iran, Palestine, Egypt, and nose runs. Now, we haven't been able to pin that down as fact. That's just a rumor that we've picked up in talking to other airline pilots who've heard other airline pilots say that. But we've never been able to pin it down. However, it would be very interesting to find out, and we're making attempts, although we've run up against a lot of trouble because they said the pilots just don't want publicity, and they won't make those reports. This segment in here have been reported by Air Force pilots and aerial sightings.

A lot of these have been balloons. We've had a lot of trouble with the balloons in it. A pilot meeting a balloon in the air isn't familiar with what that balloon is going to do. He's familiar with meeting another airplane, and he's already made up his mind as to what the rate of closure should be, and different things like that. He'll usually assume that when he meets a balloon, instead of a balloon, it's some object about 30 or 40 feet in diameter.

And judging the rate of closure, he assumes it's going at a very terrific speed. But we've been able, in some cases, to actually show how that pilot was misled, and it was actually a balloon. However, we don't try to say that. everything was a balloon. In other words, if a balloon was launched in the area, we try to definitely pin that down. And we can get the time of launch the balloon, the rate of assent, the winds aloft. We can plot out the path of that balloon and plot out the pilot's path and show by various lines of sight how he actually did see the balloon. In the past, it's

been a practice to say, well, there was a balloon launch within 100 miles. Consequently, the pilot must have seen a balloon. We don't want to try that because it's, well, we just want to have more proof before we say that it's a balloon. And the Air Force has gotten into a lot of trouble in the past by very loosely tying up these balloons with the sightings. We have some photographs of these objects that we have quite a few photographs, I should say. A lot of them are definitely either hoaxes or else they're flaws in the negative. Even the people that have found this print, have looked at it and said, I took a picture of the sky, and I didn't see this flying saucer,

although here's a picture of it, and they'll send it in to us. It's not too difficult to examine the emotion through a microscope and find out that the image is due to an imperfection in the negative. However, we have a few photographs that are very difficult to evaluate. This is one of them right here. It was taken in Phoenix, Arizona, on the 7th of July, 1947. This has been hashed around quite a bit and there's a little bit of doubt as to the whether or not this was purposely faked, but we've never been able to prove it.

This picture is probably the most interesting one that we've ever received mainly because we went into the background of this thing a lot more. This was taken in Lubbock, Texas last September. Now this Lubbock case is probably the most interesting one. The whole case is the most interesting one we've ever had. These five college professors from Texas Tech were sitting out in the backyard one evening, and I believe it was August, it's August 25th. And they happened to be discussing meteors, and so they were sitting there looking up in the sky,

and all of a sudden this bunch of lights went over. And so one of them, they looked at each other and said, what was that? Nobody seemed to know. And so about a half an hour later, why they were still discussing the lights, and they said they wished that something like that would go over again, and it did. So for, well, all together, in a period of, I believe it was five or six nights, they observed 12 of these things that went over. Well, they assumed that it was some kind of a missile that the Air Force had been developing.

And being nosy, they thought they'd find out what this, well, they reached this conclusion. Anthony Saw it first two, that they'd find out what these missiles were. So they set up their own crude measuring systems. they were able to set up or measure the angles on the houses and things in their backyard so they could tell the angle this thing went through and they timed it with a stopwatch. They also set up a baseline 90 degrees to the path. And incidentally, these things always came over the same path and at roughly the same time every night so they knew about what was going on.

They set up this baseline and got each end with two-way radios and some homemade, you know, we might call them field lights or angle measuring devices and try to get an altitude. Well, they were unsuccessful on that. However, they did get their angular measurement across the sky and it came out to be 30 degrees per second. Now that's the only measurement we've got on these things. We didn't hear about it until about a month after it happened

and I went down and spent quite a bit of time with these people. At first, we thought it was just one big hope that they were just out to get some publicity. But on investigating these people and talking to them, We found out that there was a professor of, I believe he was head of the physics department of Texas Tech, a gentleman who was head of the petroleum engineering department of Texas Tech, a gentleman who had spent the last five years in Alaska studying the Aurora, and a doctor of mathematics, and they had an astronomer who didn't see these,

although he was in on the investigation. Well, after they found out the Air Force was interested in it, they took an entirely different view. I mean, they found out that it wasn't one of our missiles. Then they began to wonder what it was, but the thing had happened, and it was finished, and they couldn't get any more information for us. Now, these pictures, well, incidentally, before that, they put a couple pieces in a local newspaper

to try to determine who else had seen these things. And they put their names in the paper so that people could write to them and say, I saw it or I didn't see it. And they got a lot of publicity. Consequently, everybody in Lubbock, Texas was sitting up at night waiting for these things to go over, And a college freshman at Texas Tech had his camera ready when they went over one night. And this is the picture that he got.

Now, this is one formation that went over, and this is another formation. His story is that he saw one go over, and all of a sudden it dawned on him while he tried to get a picture. He was a fairly good amateur photographer. He took these with a Kodak 35. He shot him a tenth of a second at 3.5 on Plus X film. He tracked him, and consequently, we don't know whether this blur is due to the movement of the object or the movement of his camera since he shot him in a tenth of the second. This is the first formation that went over, and this is the second formation. Now, we've tried every way that we know of to prove that these pictures are a fate.

I've talked to the kid, and in fact I talked to him twice. We've had OSI talk to him about three times, and the final last time they got him alone, And they said, now, look, we'll let you back out on this if you want it. We'll never tell anybody as far as the newspaper is concerned. And everybody who sold these pictures, too, why they're really good photos. But if you'll just confess to the OSI, we'll drop it. But he said, no. He said, these are pictures of something that flew over love of Texas on, well, this was,

these have to be taken on 31st of August. He said, I don't know what they are, but he said, I took the pictures, and that's all I know. and he signed a sworn statement for us, so he had to drop it right there. I mean, we've got no way to, yes, sir. Do this picture just check with the observations of this file? No, sir, I was gonna just mention that.

The college professors say that these pictures are fake. I mean, they won't believe them at all. I say the things that they saw, they know were too dim to ever take a picture of. Now, we cross-checked with the kid on that, and he said, well, he said, that's right. He said, after I took these pictures, he said, I didn't develop.

for two days because he said, I just thought Moan minded that I wouldn't even have an image because they were what I saw was, I thought was too dim to take a picture of, but I just took a chance. So he took those pictures. He finally developed him and that's what he came out with. And he sold

those, I believe he got $8 for the original set of prints from a newspaper. We had those prints over to the photo lab, and he checked him out. I mean, they are an actual image. There's no doubt about that. He could have taking a black sheet of paper and just punched holes in it and faked him very easily,

but he swears up and down and he didn't do that. These things under a microscope show that the relative position of these things vary, just a little bit in each picture. Well, it's doubtful if he took a piece of cardboard and just plunged holes in it, if he would be smart enough to vary the holes, the position of the hole in each exception. He'd probably just take him four shots of the same thing and maybe moved his camera to give him a little appearance of motion there, but the actual Exposures or images are moved just a little bit in each exposure now again that could come to the fact that maybe he tipped his paper as he took the picture

But we don't know we've never been able to prove that they were they were fakes the density on the negative compares to the density of a bright star. In other words, we used the same exposure in the same film and went out and took a couple pictures from bright planets. And it's the density of the negative is just a little bit more

than that of a bright planet at night. So that's all we know about it. We haven't been able to. I've explained to get two sets of lights in some cases other than a cement. No, sir, we haven't. We asked him about that, and he said he took the pictures that looked like a straight line.

He didn't notice two different formations. Now, I always hesitate to tell this because it could, again, be one big coincidence. But if you plot those points on a piece of, I mean, enlarge them on a piece of graph paper and plot them out exactly, you'll see that as the consecutive frames, one row lights, the back row will say, moves up to the first row. And then it moves on ahead in the third picture. Now, that doesn't make sense at all because the fact that there are two different formations he took. I was basing them with the microscope, but for the second,

the same one as the first row? Yes, sir. I have the plot here. If you've been interested in seeing a little later, I'm sure right now. We haven't been able to reach any conclusions at all. Now, there's only two possibilities that we can think of. And here are the plots of those.

Only two possibilities that we can think of. One of them is that it's still one great big hoax that the college professors just decided to see how much they could fool the people in Lubbock, Texas, and they planted these pictures with the kid. The other thing is that it was known that there was a duck flight on any area at the time, that the ducks were flying across Lubbock. We tried, and the people in Lubbock tried to see whether or not you could take a picture of ducks at night just from the reflection of the city lights, and that's impossible. So if these pictures are true, are not fakes, well then these pictures are not a duck, so we'll put it that way. The college professors won't believe the duck story at all.

I mean, they say those were not ducks. If they were ducks, they'd have to be such and such a height to give that 30 degrees per second, and if they were that low, the fact I think it comes out to be about 75 to 80 feet. The ducks would have to be that low to be flying 60 miles an hour and go through that angle. angle at a certain time. And they say they are not ducks. Now that's the only possibility we have or the only idea of what they could be. They might be ducks

reflecting the city lights. Although it's still hard to believe that because just of all the circumstance it just doesn't sound like ducks. A lot of people in Lovok who are looking for these objects on these nights did see ducks. And when we were down there they'd call us up and they'd say I know what these lights are. They're ducks because I saw them and I could see the wings flapping and I could hear them hawking and I could see their neck sticking out and you're wasting our good taxpayers' money coming down here talking about it because they were ducks. Now, but once again there's about half the people that saw these objects again

said they were not ducks because they said we've lived in love of all our life and we've seen ducks for the last 30 years and those were not ducks. So we're up against a blank wall on this one case. Now we've reached several general, I shouldn't say reached any conclusions, there's two or three general facts about all of the sightings, the overall collection of sightings that we have. One of them is that on our good sightings there's absolutely no noise ever reported connected with these objects, no matter how low they are. They may be reported as just being specks in the sky or down fairly low and there's absolutely no noise reported. And once again we don't

know of any kind of a propulsion system that would that would do that. I mean, everything that we know of has some type of noise connected with it. Another thing is we've had a lot of radar returns, but we have never had a visual sighting linked up with the radar return. We've had two or three reports of that, but we've never been able to pin them down enough and get enough faxabom to make sure that they were both looking at the same thing. They had a project on this down at Holland,

and they've been very much interested in it because they've been seeing them, seeing on a comparative basis more of these things around the Holloman White Sands area. They did track something down there with their synodhyotlites. They don't know what it is and it could possibly be a slow-moving daylight meteor. Now I'm not an astronomer, but I understand such things exist. They got pictures of it and they were able to track it. However, they saw about five or six of these things at once. It was right after they launched a missile and they had their...

scanning the sun and field lights pointed up in the air and they saw these four or five things right behind a missile and they got the word to swing over on those and forget the missile and they're a little bit doubtful as to whether or not all stations track the same object so consequently their readings are a little bit off but they did come up with an altitude reading of about 150,000 feet the speed was very great they they came up the speed of about 3500 miles an hour but again they won't back that up because they aren't sure of the conditions that these readings were made under. That's the only time we've ever come really close to getting any accurate data on these things. And I want to say again that it could be that it was a meteor in a daytime. Now they have another type of phenomenon or object

or something floating around down that area, and that's these green fireballs. I don't know really you've been reading about that in a paper, but there's a doctor, Lincoln LaPaz down in Albuquerque at University of New Mexico has been making a big deal out of these green fireballs They appear to be Similar to a meteor except that they have a definite flat trajectory They're reported to be a brilliant greenish blue color and they

They don't explode. I mean they appear to be very long about a third or a fourth the size of a full moon and they're very low and they just go out like that. They don't explode and they're very low and they just go out like that. They don't explode and they? Now Dr. Lepaz's theory on this thing is that if it's a normal meteor, there should be a terrific explosion because of the size of these things. It indicates that they're down low in the atmosphere and there should be a terrific explosion when they get down low enough to explode. Again, we don't know what they are. I mean, they actually exist. There's no doubt about it. I mean, it's not anybody's imagination because they've been reported by, well, Dr. Lepaz himself has seen one and we've had some of them. very fine reports and they all follow the same path. There's a definite flat trajectory right across the, well parallel to the Earth's surface.

They go out with no explosion and they're a brilliant, bright green. Now, airline pilots have seen them and maybe if they meet them head-on or something like that, they'll rack the airliner up and just about toss everybody out of the seats because they think they're going to have a head-on collision with this, whatever it will be. Now Cambridge Labs have been working on that for two years,

They came up with no conclusions whatsoever as to what there might be. So I understand that we're going to take it over again and see if we can't possibly come up with some idea. We've talked to, well, Dr. Kaplan's idea is that they come from Russia. He said that they're using some kind of a self-destruction missile and they're zeroing in on Los Alamos. Now, that's a good story. I mean, it sounds really exciting.

And there's a possibility. I mean, we can't say that it isn't because we don't know what it is. We've talked to Dr. Kaplan quite a bit on his subject, probably knowing from the University of California. He thinks that they're either some kind of possibly a new media that we are not familiar with or some phenomena that's related to the Aurora. He claims that he can duplicate this color in his lab, and I'm not sure of just exactly.

just exactly how he does it. I believe he uses, well I don't know, I won't say, I've gotten a report, but I don't want to quote something I don't know about. But anyway, he can duplicate this color, and he believes that that's what it is. Now, as I say, that is a definite division of these things. I mean, they definitely exist, and our problem is to find out, really find out what they are. If there's some kind of phenomena, well, then we can turn it over with the astronomers and let them take it. If they should happen to come from Russia, why, then we better start finding. on what they're trying to do on. How many of these spring like work do they have?

We have quite a few, sir. I'd hate to say, I mean, I couldn't take exactly a number, but they started out, I believe, in 49, did they, sir? There was a big outbreak of them in 49, and they seemed to appear in January, or in December and January, in that period between the years. And they coincide with a meteor shower that occurs at that time.

I don't believe I don't remember the name of it is. But for a long time, they tried to tie them in with that meteor shower. But just recently, now, within the last year, they begin to occur more over the whole year instead of coming at one time. OSI, Dr. LaPaz worked for OSI in 49 on these, and they tried to come up with a conclusion. They couldn't.

They've also spent a lot of time trying to find any fragments and have never been successful. I mean, they've been able to triangulate these things and get a heck of a lot of reports on people that have seen them, or seen one of them, and then work their triangulation like they do on large meteors, but they've never been able to find any parts. They want us the far as to pick up, put a dust collector on a B-29

and try to fly through the area right after these things occurred, try to pick up any dust that they might have left in the upper atmosphere, but they didn't find anything at all that would indicate that anything unusual was going on. So we're up against the stone wall on these things too. I mean, all we've got just people's ideas, we've got no proof as to what they actually may be. Now, one of our approaches on this thing is going to be the use of defraction gratings on cameras.

This is Dr. Kaplan's idea. He says that we can, I don't mean, I should say he says, well, he knows that we can take a very inexpensive camera and put a defraction grading on it. and give them to these guards around Sandia and white sands and all these places where the guards are outdoors 24 hours a day. And every time they see something, it's unusual, just point the camera at it and take a picture.

And then he says that he can take the reading and match him up, either by known objects or match him up in his lab and tell us what the composition is of this object that's emitting this light. Now, we haven't, that's just strictly in the planning stage. Now we haven't done very much, except Dr. Kaplan is now trying to figure out the cheapest camera that he can build for us and the most rugged camera, so these guards can throw it around and still we'll get some decent pictures of these objects. Another thing that we've done is recently we've briefed Air Defense Command on this whole project

and have got their cooperation with their radar scope cameras. As I mentioned before, we have had quite a few unknown radar returns. These things of the Air Defense Command radars tracked objects going anywhere from 1,000 up to about 3,500 miles an hour. We've never been able to determine, however, that these weren't. Malfunctions in a radar set are due to some type of atmospheric phenomena. We've tried to get the weather charts at the time, or weather conditions, at the time this phenomenon has occurred, and try to correlate that data and show that due to certain type of weather condition that they had this type of return. Now we haven't had too much luck

on that angle so now we're going to try to get radar scope cameras and get pictures of this stuff and then we'll know and before we've just had the radar observers interpretation of what he saw in a scope. We think that with pictures probably we can do a little bit more with this. Now another step further in that and we haven't done anything on this except talk about and it may get into the point where we're going to do this and that is try to put in a long focal length camera, try to match a local long focal length camera with the radar spinner. So whenever this radar operator gets a return all you have to do is

poke a button and this camera will take a picture of the area of the sky that the radar spinner is pointing at. And in that if we get that far and if we get a bad funny return we'll say an usual return on a scope and if we get an image no matter how big the image is on the photographic plate or on the film at the same time, or then we can say that this radar operator was actually picking up something. I mean, that would be a great help to us now,

because we don't know for sure if they're even picking anything up. But that's the next step, and it's still in the planning or even in the talking stage right now. That's about the main thing we're going to try to do as far as future plans is concerned. We want to try to get some kind of some kind concrete data to say that these things exist. Up to the present time we've got no real proof that anything even exists. The only thing we've got are reports from very reliable people that do have a lot of details in them,

but the details aren't the kind that we want. I mean, they don't give us enough data as to the possible performance or anything else that we might need on these objects. The official Air Force viewpoint is that we've got enough good reports for from reliable people to be interested in this. We can't back up any of these books by Sculley or Kehoe and say that we know that they're from Venus or that we know they're from Russia or that we even know they exist.

I mean, there's a possibility that everything that's being reported is some, as a balloon, or as a meteor, or ducks, or anything you can think of that somebody just saw them from an odd angle or under odd lighting conditions and they looked like something else. But it's at the present time, we have enough faith in these people have been turning in our reports to say that we

we don't exactly believe that I mean we're going to have to get more approved before we can say that everything that's being seen is some known object just viewed under different circumstances I could go on for a long time telling you about the good reports we've had I'd say about 20% of the 800 or 900 reports that we now have just cannot be I mean, you can't say that looks like a meteor. You can't say that that could be a balloon if there is a balloon in the area because it just doesn't tie up. And most of these people have made these reports are well-established airline pilots.

I mean, old pilots who've had a lot of flying time. The people have released these General Mills balloons have seen something. The people at White Sands have seen very odd things. Dr. LaPaz himself has seen a couple things floating over the mountains down New Mexico that he didn't. He couldn't explain. And we've got about 20% of our reports are like that. But we can't go up to them and say, now you can't, this can't be your nuts.

I mean, that would be our only answer on those. You're just crazy. But you can't go up to anybody and tell them that. I mean, they've seen something, and we don't know what it is. Now, well, some of the big questions that enter our mind on this is, one, the no-sound business. If it actually exists and there's no, there's some type of propulsion, but there's no sound, what could it possibly be?

Another big question is, and it's getting in the lines of psychology, why or how could a person look up at night or in the dusk, we'll say, or even in the daytime, and see some of these things that they report. Now, right along those lines, we had the same time these pictures were taken down at Lubbock within two or three days that time, two women were driving along in a couple of times. Two women were driving along in a car. And all of a sudden they looked out over the Texas plains and they saw this object that they described as being top-shaped,

like in these old-fashioned tops you put a string around and pulled. And it was silver, and it was hovering along over the prairie, and they drove up, well, they approached it, and as they approached it why the thing began to take off like that. Well, we checked on these women and found out that they were just as reliable as your wives or anybody else. I mean, they didn't have any reputation of being habitual liars or stretching stories or anything like that. They were just good old Texas farm wives or all they were.

And we questioned them, but that's their story. I mean, they said, that's what we saw. We don't know what it was. We're leaving up the Air Force to tell us what we saw. Well, Thunder, we can't tell them. Once again, it goes down back to the point, how much can people imagine? At the same time, these Lubbock pictures were taken. In fact, it's the same night, a guard in his wife from the Sandia base in Albuquerque were sitting out in their backyard.

And all of a sudden they looked up and he saw this big dark shape go over. And they said it was a, it looked a lot like a flying wing type aircraft. And it was down about 150 feet and it just scared the dickens out of them because it was so low. And they could see little exhaust flames on the back of the airplane. Well, we checked them again and once again, we found out. that they're just good normal people. I mean, the guy's been a guard at Sandia for a good number of years, so he's reliable to that extent.

I mean, they don't usually hire psychopathic cases to guard places like Sandia. And just out of curiosity, we sent these pictures down to that guy. And the OSI showed him to him, he said, yeah, he said, that's what I saw. But he said, it was these little lights are the exhaust stacks that I saw. and it happened on the same night that these pictures were taken just about two hours before these people saw this thing at Lubb. So, I mean, it's probably a coincidence. But again, you can't say it's a coincidence.

I mean, we can't get enough facts to ever pin it down, but it's one of those things that's just very interesting to work on. I mean, it'll drive you nuts after so long a time, but then we try to keep going on it. Well, that's about all that I, had, I believe. What sort of performance stated do you get out of these radar return? It varies.

It varies quite a bit. Usually high speed. My high speed, I mean anything over 1,000 miles an hour. For a while, we thought we had it pinned down, or our radar people did, because the return always went over the station. It came in, went through the ground clutter, practically directly over the station, and went out the other side. Now, they claimed that that was an indication of

something, I'm not sure, interference in their station, or something like that. But lately, they haven't been doing that. I mean, they'll come in to the end of the range, and they'll maybe make it turn and go out. Now, we had one interesting case from Huss Bay Library. And this GCA operator was sitting there looking at a scope, and all of a sudden you saw these two objects come in. They were coming in about four or five hundred miles an hour.

And at the same time a C-47 was coming in, he was going to land this 47. Well, he noticed they were on a collision course, so he called the tower and said, tell those two unidentified airplanes, they're on a collision course, which is 47. So the tower just called in the, the tower said there's no other airplanes out there. The radar man said, yes, there is. The tower just called in the blind and said, you two unidentified airplanes, you're on a collation course with a 47, and just they said that these two returns made it turn. Now, once again, have we got coincidence or have we actually got something?

See, I mean, it doesn't speak English. So that's about the only conclusion we can draw the understanding. But that's some of the things we run into. I mean, we're running into a lot of that kind of stuff, where we'll have a lot of small situations that all build up into a big one. And it might be just a coincidence. It might be, we may put our imagination into it unconsciously, only we're trying to keep away from them.

We try to stay right in the straightened. I mean we don't want to be influenced either way on this thing they may be from Mars but if they are we don't want to think they are we don't want to think they're all balloons I mean we're trying to stay right in the middle of the road and we had a real interesting one from New Jersey around Sandy Hook and Fort Monmouth here not too long ago these pilots in the T-33 chase something and just about ten minutes later all the radar stations in that area began to pick these objects up going back and forth all over the skies. And we thought, boy, this is it. So we tore up there to find out, boy, this story

sounded real fine. And he's T33 pilots saw this great big dish-shaped thing over there, and he took out after it, and he couldn't catch it. And then the radar stations began to pick up these signals, and they were clocking speeds up to 3,500 miles an hour and everything else. Well, it turned out that the pilots had seen a big balloon. It was larger a normal weather balloon. It had been launched in Fort on with. And they were a little bit mixed up with their rate of closure and stuff like that, had seen a balloon. And the radar crews, the first radar crew, had picked up probably just an ordinary aircraft. But they were giving a demonstration to a bunch of kernels, and the operators got a little bit flustered on the whole thing, and they couldn't lock in this automatic tracking, so they assumed

the thing must be going about 3,500 miles an hour. It turned out the reason they couldn't lock it in they were just too excited and got a little bit followed up on their procedures. And from then on, why they were picking up weather balloons with these radar reflectors hanging on and everything else. And the students, incidentally turned out they were mostly student radar operators were picking his stuff up. The headquarters had called in and hadn't explained anything. They just said, get on your radar scopes and look for these mysterious objects floating around.

Well, that's all it took for these kids because, well, they saw everything. Well, what at first appeared to be a very good sighting just all broke down and we get enough facts. Now, maybe they'll all turn out to do that. But so far, we've got an awful lot of them that we can't even come close to explain you. I guess that's about all I had. If you got any questions, well, we'd be very happy to discuss any aspect of this whole thing with you, folks. Have you seen your section here? No, sir, I haven't.

How about the thing you saw, one day? Oh, I saw something one day. But it was just a large meteor, one of these green fireballs or something. It was, I think it was one of these green fireballs, Don Texas. But it was, that's all that I have ever seen. I might, at the risk of repeating just some of these points. One is, Lieutenant Rupelette mentions around 800 cases that we have in our files. We know that that's only a portion of the sightings that have been made.

Those are the ones that have managed to be reported to some military base and then through channels get to us. You can read local newspapers almost anywhere in the country, and if you read them over a period of time, you'll find stories on these things that we have not heard of. We've even heard of them in military organizations that have not been reported. because I think it's almost a case of the airline pilots. They wonder if there isn't something peculiar.

For example, I was talking to some people from SACC the other day and they were telling me about a radar bomb scoring run of a B-29 out at St. Louis. And they were following the B-29 in to the initial point. The operator noticed this plane flying or an object at 48,000 feet, the 20,000 feet. feet the 29 was 25,000 feet. He immediately thought, well, that's possible in double harmonics or something. In any rate, he explained it away in his own mind. Well, then the blip started descending on a collision course and a quick check revealed that it was descending in a rate of something like a thousand miles an hour.

Got a little more concerned and still thought, well, possibly this is either in the radar or some atmospheric condition. But then when the thing broke off, made a turn, and then another turn, took the course and disappeared, they just don't know what it is. Well, we find on these radar sightings that you just left pretty much outside. I mean, you can't really dig in, you haven't got anything. Because there's so many of them that can be explained, there's a possibility that it is something either in the atmosphere are in the set. We had one good one not too long ago, and one of our electronic...

People pulled out a textbook and, gee, there was the case written up in a textbook, exactly what had been reported to us. A hovering object made a rapid rate of assent and then took off on a course. Well, such a thing has occurred, apparently, because of weather phenomena, been reported and pretty thoroughly written up. So what we find in that whole area of sightings, I mean, we were just left without any answers. One point that was not brought out is our relationship with Battelle. Oh yes, I forgot to mention it.

Battelle Memorial Institute. They're one of the contractors who do work for us. They're always funny. They became interested in this when we pointed out to them one day that here's an area in which we've had a lot of problems and we're looking for help. We don't know the answers. So one of the things that they hope to do for us is make available to us people who are specialists in various areas. So if we get a case that calls for an astronomer, we can quickly get an astronomer to work on it. Another thing is possibly a clipping service that

will bring in a massive reports that we don't have and if any of them are worth five. following up, we can. But our problem is the problem is seeing is just getting facts. We don't have enough facts to do anything other than explain that 80% of these roughly are known objects. That we can do possibly. As a matter of fact, they're not 80% definitely proved, but say 60 definitely. I mean, there's no question in our mind. It was a plane or something else. Then, these are rough figures, say 20% that maybe, they could have been a plane, a balloon, or a meteor. And then there's that 20%, like the green fireballs and the lights that we just do not have an answer for. Now, one thing that people have suggested, well, how about a feasibility study?

Well, a feasibility of what? The unknown. We're stuck there. General, all the intelligence officers of air bases and units have been alerted on this and the report to everything. Is the military generally alerted? Yes, we should have brought that out early. There is a directive from headquarters USA that establishes a reporting procedure. Now, we felt for a long time like most directives, particularly if there's no activity on it, people forget about it.

I mean he gets stuck off in the file. We've also felt that it was not a very good one. It had a lot of weak points in it. So we prepared a new directive, and in the meantime suggested that they go ahead and remind all of these people that there is a reporting procedure set up so that it would bring reports in.

And the new directive has just recently been coordinated, I believe, hasn't it? It's going back to DFI right now. It should be out. Now, Lieutenant Rupelt, in getting around on these cases, of course there's a lot of missionary work I mean when he heads a base I mean he briefs him pretty thoroughly on our problem and the places he's hit I'm sure are well

aware of how it's done I'm equally sure there are number of these places that just don't know they probably have the directives somewhere I was just thinking of my own case I knew folks were interested from this association of it but no there's still any official channel I never heard that there was any interest How about the Ground Observer Corps? They have 100,000 people. They are quite active now. Are they allowed it to?

They are to a certain extent. So we've talked about that quite a bit. And we don't know whether it's worth alerting those people. Now they're not now on a 24-hour basis. They hope to get them on a 24-hour basis soon. But we don't know exactly how far to go. I mean, we're afraid maybe if we alert that number of people and then everybody in the United States to get excited again. That's the thing we're trying to

keep out of this thing is this excitement business. Now in two weeks a week from this coming Friday life is coming out with an article on these objects and we've been working closely with life and they supposedly are going to print what we told them to. I hope they do. They're going to put it on a factual basis. I mean just about like this briefing. In other words there may be something to it but we don't know. And we feel that that report may tend to take the mysteriousness and hysteria out of the thing and just get people to give us a few reports,

well, people with good common sense instead of all these nut letters that we get occasionally. Another thing, Colonel Kirkland referred to this newspaper clipping service, we hope to get that started before this Life magazine article comes out and keep it going over, say, a period of a year and see how the peaks in the newspaper publicity correspond with the peaks in the reports that we get. We feel it after life comes out,

while then several other magazines will undoubtedly pick this stuff up. A true magazine is supposed to be coming out with an article sometime within the next couple of months. It will be slanted the other way. It's going to be written by one of these science fiction writers, and it should give us no end of trouble. We haven't been able to get true to cooperate with us at all. I mean, I shouldn't say that.

They probably would, but their type of magazine, I mean, they sell the sensational items, and they don't, they want to play it up. And then I believe Look is also thinking about coming out with an article. So the magazines are going to follow life, and we'll probably will run into a little bit of flack again on this thing. Is it unlike that or other type that any of these magazines have facts of they would say With the whole just for the sick of being sensation?

Life magazine has a lot of information that we do not have on different sightings. They have some very good sightings too. I mean, they've called in some pretty important people around the United States. They are very hesitant to tell you who works for them as their consultants. But they have got some pretty good sightings that we have never heard of. And they're going to use those in their article, although they have checked those with us.

The two or three old stand boys that everybody always plays up, such as this Mantell case down in Kentucky where this guy got killed chasing one of them, supposedly. The one up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where the F-51 pilot fought with this thing for 15 minutes, and a few of those that are outstanding as far as the science fiction writers are concerned, life is going to leave out. They're not going to dig those up again and rehash them again. Was it ever established? What caused Mountaineau's death and disintegration? No, well, they think,

I mean the official report, and I tend to believe it, is that he didn't have any oxygen at all. And he just climbed up until he passed out and then the airplane went into a dive and just tore itself to pieces. I think that probably, what he was chasing

is still open to discussion. It was either, probably either Venus or one of these great big skyhook balloons that General Mills puts up. because there was one lost in the area at the time, although they were never able to say where it was, except that it was either over Kentucky or Tennessee. That's all I've been able to pin down, and they think that that might have been it. But... Is this still classified top secret?

No, sir, it isn't. That's another... No, we actually, we carried it as confidential overall project. We're trying to get it dropped down and restrict it now, because life is going to be. to come out with a lot of material we've given them that is classified or was classified at one time. The only time this was classified top secret was right after came out. We've been carrying this confidential. There are some aspects that we'll have to keep classified as secret or maybe higher when we start listing air defense radar stations, possible tie-in with some of our latest developments and things like that.

We'll have to keep that classified. but just the details of a sighting, we're going to try to declassify too restricted. Because we've had trouble in the past on that. Some newspaper will call up and say, big siting up somewhere, and we'll say, yes, we've heard about it. And they'll say, what's the results? We'll say, well, we can't tell you about that.

It's classified. So immediately they came out with a big story about the Air Force just picked up a spaceship somewhere, and they won't tell us about it. And that's the thing we're trying to get away from. I mean, we don't want to excite anybody. on the project. There is one other area that's classified and that's where we have reports on people.

Yes. You know, their background to try to determine whether they're reliable enough. We run into one interesting bit of discussion on this classification because there's some people who say, well now these could be from Russia, which is true, it could be. Therefore, we're doing them a great service reporting them in our papers, very careful. papers very carefully, they can get plots, which is true. But we feel that the papers, I mean when they get one, are going to report it, and then they're going to come to us for what we know on it,

and it's inevitable if the papers pick it up. So that's one reason we like this reporting channel that's established, that if anybody cites one of them. It's not too illogical for somebody if you see something in the air to call it nearest Air Force Base. I mean, it's one of the first things that would think of, maybe they've got something in the air. And we have found, though, this is an example of this T-33 case, you mentioned, that the reporters were right on hand

to discuss this thing with pilots when they landed and took pictures of them. We found out that in the New York area, some paper, I couldn't tell you which one is, monitors VHF, monitors all the air traffic. all the air traffic in the area. And I don't know why they do it, but they do. And that's why they picked up that T-33 incident

was monitoring the air traffic. Now, I heard two different stories. One, the newspaper actually has a setup themselves to monitor, another one that they have two or three hams in the area alerted to call them if anything happens. But this T-33 pilot did call the tower and told them about it, and newspapers were right. right there. So we found out one thing that is the newspapers surpass the Air Force in

their intelligence channels. They're good. I mean there's just no getting around. Mr. Davis. So we can't buck them, you can't lick them join them. That's about our policy. Well, actually it goes a little further than that. I mean it's a wonderful ally. I think the project and it's very, and he's handling a lot just through difference in opinion or, you know, changes in opinion. There's been great interest in it, and then it would fall away, not too much interest, in great interest. And that's officially, too, as well as public. We feel that by going right down the line, taking every case we get, and trying to get additional facts, and encouraging anybody and everybody to give us information.

There are a lot of groups that are interested in this. I don't know whether any of you read the Time article a few weeks ago on the Sussex. There's a group out on the West Coast in their spare time trying to get all of these cases that you can work on. But we feel that group, if we're quite frank with them, would be very cooperative and help us. I mean, we're not trying to hide anything. We're trying to get help. You do have a problem on how far you go publicly, but I think possibly this life-type article will help if they publish what we expect. This medium has been declassified in compliance with applicable executive order, statutes, and regulations.

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