Somewhere in the Skies - Confessions of a Spooky Special Agent

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

On episode 219 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we welcome Walter Bosley for the very first time. Ryan met Bosley in 2018 while both were speaking at a conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia. What Ryan didn't know was that Bosley was a certified spook! In this epic conversation, Bosley navigates us through his complex work in counterintelligence with the FBI and his work as a Special Agent in counterterrorism with the Office of Special Investigations with the U.S. Air Force. Bosley also shares the alternate thread of personal investigations he embarked on throughout his life in looking in to UFOs, the paranormal, and the occult. With a cryptic mentor leading him both through the black budget world and the world of the unexplained, Bosley began to realize, that the deeper you go into the intelligence apparatus, the stranger it truly gets. Bosley also gives his personal thoughts on former AFOSI agent, Richard Doty and U.S. Army Counterintelligence special agent, Luis Elizondo, the former director of the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (A.T.T.I.P). He also shares a dramatic UFO sighting he had recently, and then answers listener questions. Buckle up for a conversation unlike any we've ever had. These are the cosmic confessions of a spooky special agent!  Subscribe to the Walter Bosley Channel at: https://bit.ly/3wVl7I1  Stream Bosley's presentation, workshop, and panel at Contact in the Desert: https://bit.ly/2TVxRQk Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Somewhere in the Skies Subreddit: www.reddit.com/r/SomewhereSkiesPod/ YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan’s book in paperback, ebook, or audiobook by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on the show, former FBI employee and former agent for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Walter Bosley. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Walter Bosley, welcome for the very first time. I can't believe I'm saying this, the very first time to somewhere in the skies. It's great to be here, Ryan. It's always interesting to talk with you. Absolutely, man. And I know, you know, we've had a few adventures together now. one of which was in Nova Scotia when I was first getting to know you. And Greg Bishop was there and Paul Kimball. And it was like this ragtime group of guys that I have just been like dreaming about spending a weekend with and talking UFOs, paranormal, you know, the occult and everything in between.

And yeah, we had some good times, man. And then, and then I learned about your extensive background. And I was like, why have I not interviewed this guy earlier? So we're finally making it happen. The goofy beret wearing friend of, you know, Greg's, you know, back then. If you had to know, little did I know. I know. For those who in my audience may not be familiar with your work, you are an author.

You are a filmmaker, screenwriter, but you've had a lot of different lives. And I'd love to kind of walk through those. So would you mind kind of telling us how your career first started with all the various agencies you've worked with. And yeah, give us the origin story of Walter Bosley turned professional spook. Well, it's interesting. There's actually, when you look at it, there's two threads, two tracks or streams to my career. Now, a lot of people, they assume that I retired from the military or I retired from the FBI. And what's interesting is, I never officially retired from any of the organizations I worked for because I didn't work for any of them long enough.

My career was almost 20 years. It was 19 and a half years between really four different employers. But I started with the FBI in 1980. Now, to kick off the other track, so that you realize there's this other track going along with this, and I'll go back and forth to, you know, illuminate things, you know, maybe make it clear how it worked for me. I had an uncle, one of my mom's brothers, who had spent, by the time he retired in 99, he'd spent 44 years in the intelligence community of the U.S., and he had started out in Army Special Forces, had been drafted, I think, in 1940. 50 or 51, something like that.

And he started mentoring me directly in 1986, about the time I got out of college. I finished at San Diego State in December of 85. And he was the one who suggested that I go apply to the FBI. And this was after already like a year and a half, two years of he and I having some really interesting conversations, both about the entire. intelligence spook world and the paranormal spook world, actually, and where those two worlds cross over, and they do. But in November of 87, he told me, hey, go apply to the local FBI office. So I did. And by February of 88, I was offered the job by the FBI, and I started as a mail clerk.

and in those days, you take a job to get your foot in the door in stuff like that. I imagine people still do that. So I spent 45 days as a male clerk got promoted to evidence technician, did that for about six months and then was brought into the counterintelligence division. And I essentially spent the rest of my career in counterintelligence with a little bit of counterterrorism in there and such. and after let's see I had my first spy training I guess you'd call it at Quantico in the fall of 88 and then I was on a covert surveillance team discrete surveillance team actually we'd call it

did that for about a year and then scored the highest in the San Francisco division for the foreign language aptitude test and they sent me to Russian training. training. And I thought, oh, great. I'm already in the San Francisco division. You know, I'll just be down the road in Monterey. That's nice. They go, no, no, no, you're going to your class is going to Fort Meade. So I spent almost a year at, uh, under the Baltimore division at Fort Meade studying Russian and then went to Manhattan, where I worked for three years before going into the Air Force. I worked on an under that, this was a truly undercover squad in Manhattan that had been a 15 year Cold War operation. and we were part of the last crew when the Cold War ended on that squad. And from the FBI, I went into the Air Force because the OSI wanted to hire me. At the time, the FBI had a freeze on agent positions, meaning they just weren't running any agent classes. They weren't planning on hiring any agents. And again, going back to my mentor, you know, he said, you know, you got to become an agent, you know, get that badge.

So I went to the OSI and they liked my background and they wanted me. And I went into OTS summer of 93, got commissioned in November of 93. And after the holidays, started right in Agent Academy. I spent my entire time in the Air Force as a special agent of the Air Force OSI, Office of Special Investigations. My first assignment was L.A. Air Force Base, which doesn't have a flight line. It's right next to L.A.X. but it's a rocket and space engineering type of base. And it fell under the early,

what was called the Space Command of the U.S. Air Force, which was one of those divisions that morphed in with Space Force when that was created. And I was there for a couple of years. I was a liaison to the agent to the FBI office that I started my career at, actually, years before. And then I went back to Wright Patterson for three years to be chief of the counterespionage operations branch, which is double agentry. And during that time, I did a six-month deployment to Saudi Arabia doing counterterrorism stuff.

And I went off active duty in 99 after about six years with the Air Force. So at that time, I'd done six with the FBI, six with the Air Force. And I went in, worked for another organization doing counterterrorism. specializing in in ops support ops. It kind of sounds redundant, but when you do operations in that world, you have operational people who are backing up the operational people. Right, right, right.

You have ops people backing up the ops people, you know, all these different layers. We were just as operational as they were. In fact, we were deeper. But did that all over the world, the Middle East, North Africa, Far East Asia, South America, Eastern Europe, Central Asia, just saw a big chunk of the world doing that. And then during that time, I started my publishing company, Los Conant Library, in 2002.

But along came 2005, and my son was starting high school. So I decided, well, you know, he needs his dad around instead of me gallivanting all over the world while he's high school. So I decided to take a domestic contract and focus on my publishing and my writing. And for about a year and a half, I did background and security background investigations, contracted to the Office of Personnel Management through a corporation that does those things, which I'll tell you, I learned like every single former federal agent I ever, talked to who did this corporate contract security background investigations. We all were unanimous.

Corporate America has no business being involved with security background investigations because they think to corporate. They want you to rush through this stuff. And sure enough, in the years after I left it, in disgust, we had some of those famous cases where people who had had these jobs where they'd been given security clearances, you know, were selling secrets or giving them away or doing all this stuff. And you find out that these corporations are the ones that did their backgrounds, you know. And anyway, that's a whole other conversation. And but yeah, I just, I got tired of doing that because it was just, they,

they didn't do it right. And the publishing was picking up. And the, and the, writing. By that time, I had just published the Disneyland book, Latitude 33, and was, I had walked into the Empire of the Wheel, which, you know, I wrote three books about at that point, at this point. So, you know, it was a good time to leave the former career behind and focus on this new thing. And, yeah, and it has been a weird ride. since then, but the skill during that career, obviously, you know, are tremendous for being, you know, a journalist and investigative researcher, that kind of thing, as you might guess. But as, as mundane as some of that can, you know, that can sound the way I presented it, you know, FBI,

counterintelligence guy than the Air Force, there was still the stream of weird running through my life. during those years. I mean, if you recall, I said my mentor and I used to have discussions about the Intel spook world, but the other spook world, too. And he told me about the experiences he started having when he was in the Army. And, you know, he was the one who told me that the deeper you go into the intelligence world, the more you will find people into this stuff. this was back in 86, 87.

So this was all new to me. This was like, oh, wait, like UFOs and ghosts and weird stuff. And it says, oh, yeah. Walter, can I ask, can I ask, how did you find this mentor? Like, was this, you're part of, okay, I was going to say, you're part of a military family, right? Well, yeah, my dad was in the Air Force, which I wrote about in shimmering light. And, you know, this particular uncle, one of my mom's brothers, you know, he had been Army since the 50s.

She had another brother who was in the Navy during World War II, and he was on a ship that was hit by a kamikaze plane. And I think she had another brother who was in. So I think she had three brothers. My dad was in. He had his oldest brother had been in the Air Force. So, yeah, and in the family history, of course, you know, served in the union.

Army during the Civil War and dating back to the Revolution, too. So both sides of my family, my moms and my dads have been here since the 17th century, the 1600s. So we're probably, you know, in those naughty colonies. We weren't wealthy landowners, believe me. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Well, I'd love to rewind for just a second. Sure.

And maybe could you paint us a picture of like what a day consisted of in Manhattan with the FBI? Like what were you really doing there? Surveillance, I assume, was a part of the job. And then could you tell us a little bit more about your time with AFOSI? If there's any stories, memorable things you can share. I know someone with your background can't share a lot of specifics. But yeah, maybe a lot of. a little bit about what you did in the FBI specifically,

and then any cool stuff with the AFOSI. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows,

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Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. Yeah, with the FBI, as I said, now, when I reported for duty, the first day on March 14, 1988, I'm walking in with about a dozen new FBI employees. I'm 24 years old at this point. And myself and another young lady, as we're standing in line, and somebody walks up, different people walk up to each of us and pull us out of the line. You know, for my part, they said, do you, Walter Bosley? Yes. Come with me, please. And I'm thinking,

okay, who in my family, you know, turned up in the background is some type of criminal or whatever, and I didn't know about it? Because that's what I'm thinking, right? They're pulling me aside to say, oh, we have a problem. So they take me into this room inside the office there. And it's an empty room except for three chairs, the one I sit in and the two facing me. And I, sit there for probably about five minutes alone wondering what the heck. And in walks, a gentleman and a lady, each agents, they introduce themselves. And I find out that he's the supervisor of what's called the SSG, the special support group, which is a discrete physical surveillance team. And he basically hands me this 14-page in-house application, knowledge, skills assessment.

and says, fill this out and get it back to us as soon as possible. We think you're, you're kind of uniquely qualified to be on our team, blah, blah, this is the first day. I report to be a mail clerk, okay? And I'm already being pulled aside by the counterintelligence people. And so I fill that out, get it back to them. You know, I spent, you know, my first half a year in the bureau being a mail clerk than an evidence technician.

And then finally, I get a call. Now, I had transferred from L.A. to San Jose. And I get a call when I'm at San Jose. San Jose one day and it's the surveillance team supervisor. And finally, they send me to training. So I go to Quantico for the spook training, spy training, and that's a lot of fun. That was interesting. That was really interesting.

And I spend about a year on the surveillance team, physical surveillance team, following KGB and GRU agents and their associates around San Francisco. And I worked that good shift, the two to ten. 10. So you get to do all the fun stuff, like when they go to dinner and, you know, or if they go to the, take their kids to the circus or if they go to a ball game or something. But, you know, actually the evening is when they do most of their spy activity. So that was the time, you know. And one night, we thought at one point that they were going out after we put them down for the night.

Because we would burn off once they were in for the night and let the techies take over. But they wanted to see if they were coming outside again. because it's assumed when you work in these countries and you're in the intelligence business that the host country is following you, right? But you're not sure how many hours. So they wanted to test that. So we wanted to test them testing that. So I fallen around these two KGB agents and they did a switchback on me.

So what is that made? Well, they were walking and then they did this. And there was no way I could get around. It would burn me, so I just had to keep going. And the way it works without going into a long thing is, if you're on the regular team that follows these people, you're not necessarily supposed to be invisible to them. You're supposed, it's okay for them to get to know you

because part of your reason for being is to be if they want to defect. Then you become a receiver and a protector. See, so you kind of want them to know, hi, I'm the friendly FBI guy, just watching out. for you. You know, I'm also watching to see if you're doing spy stuff. But, you know, it was just a very humorous thing. We walked past and, you know, just kind of smile and it's like, oh, okay, now we both know what's going on late at night. And, you know, physical surveillance is something that I love. That was the first time I did it. I did it all through my career. It became actually my focused

specialty again when I was doing counterterrorism around the world. And so anyway, I passed the language test, as I said a few minutes ago. And I became a language specialist for the FBI after I finished the training, sent to Manhattan to that undercover squad, I mentioned. And that was a technical surveillance job. We had the GRU and KGB agents. We knew what their cover company was. We had them wired. And we would listen to the wiretaps every day. Now, sometimes we'd go live. Usually we'd come in every day. We'd listen to the recorded cuts from the day before. And we'd translate that and write a little log about, you know, their activities. What was interesting was, our squad was undercover, so we never went anywhere near the federal building. At the time I was

married, and we met in language training, and she had the same job. So we would work at this building in Manhattan, which I will not identify, but I will say this. I've seen it in two movies over the years. So I'll say it's kind of funny. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And, And, you know, this is a situation where only two people in the building knew we were an FBI squad. You know, we go in, you have to, in those days then even, they were making you sign in before getting on the elevator each day, the security of this particular building. And we had undercover names. And, you know, we worked in this office. We had our, the office had a cover identity.

It was such and such type of company. And they had the people out front, should there be a walk in, pretend they're with the company and say, you know, oh, we can't take. any new clients, that whole game, but it was actually an FBI squad in there, a wiretap squad. And so, like I said, I did that for three years. And there was one time when the wall fell, there was a concern about, okay, keeping a count on the Soviet Union's nukes. Okay? So we were told to focus on shipments, any kind of railroad shipments or airplane shipments or something. This was like right after the wall fell and all that stuff happened in the early 90s.

And I did a particular cut about a rail shipment through this part of the world to that. And the next day the boss supervisor calls me and says, hey, just want to let you know, that cut was really good. It was important information. and it went to the top. And I'm like, oh, I joked. I said, oh, the director knows who I am. And he goes, no, Walter. It was briefed in the war room to the president.

I said, the president knows who I am? And he says, no, Walter. You're a code number, remember? I'm like, ah, because we are. You know, your source number, 9, 8, 7, whatever. But he said, good job anyway. Like, okay. A little thrills.

Little thrills like that. So things got more interesting, even more interesting when I went into the Air Force, OSI. But now, on the undercurrent part during my FBI years, there was the whole, there was that whole remote viewing group experience. And did you want to go into that now or later? Yeah, let's do it, man. Let's do it. Yeah, because I don't know much about the whole government or I should say military remote viewing, except what I've read in like Annie Jacobson's work and some of these files that have come up.

So yeah. Yeah, yeah, please. The guys who originated, yeah. Okay, well, jump back briefly with me to 1986 when my uncle mentor is working on me. Now, this is 1986. the public, to my understanding, was not made aware of remote viewing to the, like, early 90s with the Courtney Brown book, I think it was. Yeah. It was the first person to talk about remote viewing as such publicly.

And then by the mid-90s, that was the first time a couple of books specifically on Operation, whatever they were grill flame, whatever they were calling themselves at the time. But 1986, this is years before that. And my uncle says, hey, come on out to the van. something I got to show you. And so I walk out there and he reaches under the passenger seat and hands me this heavy object wrapped in a dish towel. And he unwraps it and it's an automatic pistol. And I'm looking at this thing while he tells me, he said, you know, there's this method that you'll be taught someday. and I'm like, okay, a method of, it says, you'll be able to stand down here where we're standing.

And he says, you see that hilltop over there? I'm like, yeah, he pointed to the nearest hilltop. And at the foot of the mountains, he said, you'll be trained how to be standing down here and throw your consciousness up to, throw your mind up to the top of that hill and tell your team what and who is up there. You know, and I'm thinking, well, that's some real psychic Yuri Geller type stuff, you know, as I'm standing here, holding this gun, which he has said not a word about, okay? Later on when I became, you know, an asset handler, I realized just what a master recruiter, my uncle. He was a great handler, the little nuances, you know, he puts this gun in my hand, and yet he's telling me about this operational thing. It doesn't say a word about the gun until, you know, he's done telling me about throwing my consciousness up and be able to communicate to my team. Well, this is, this is, you know, I would learn later. This is remote viewing.

Now, remember, he's a guy who was in the Intel community for decades, and he was Army SpecOps. I have no doubt that he knew something firsthand about the Army remote viewing program at this point. No doubt at all, because obviously he's telling me about this. So when he finishes telling me about that, he says, says, you like that? He goes, you ought to get yourself one. And he goes, make sure it's 22 caliber. And then, you know, he explained to me something that, again, I learned later that it's one of the reasons assassins use 22s is because they actually bounce around a lot and can do a lot of internal damage and kind of get the job done.

So that's why there are assassins that use 22 caliber. That was the first I'd ever heard of that. So he wraps up the gun and, you know, that was. That was that story. And, you know, I had never forgotten him telling me about this, you know, throwing your mind up on the hills. So jump ahead. Jump ahead to, um,

89. Okay, three years later, I'm in the FBI. I'm in Russian training and recall that I thought I was going to go to Monterey, but instead they say, oh, no, no, no,

your class is going to Fort Meade. Okay. You'll be attached to the Baltimore division. They'll pay you and stuff like that. but you're going to be learning Russian at Fort Mead. Okay. So I go back there and it's this area of the base. It's an annex called the Fanax.

And in this section, and it's near a little town called Lenthicum where the BWI airport is, in this section of Fort Mead, you know, there's kind of these wooded areas. It was back then. This is what, over 30 years ago now. And there was this low, you know, kind of medium dark wood building there that we could see from our building, you know, we'd step out to have a break. Some people smoked, but, you know, we'd all step outside to get a break from the building. And you could see this building, I'm describing, typical military type of building, off a little bit in the distance in the

woods. You know, we saw that every day for 11 months. And at the time, I knew of no connection to what my uncle told me about in 86 and anything to do with Army remote viewing. Well, now jump ahead. it's 1996, 10 years after my uncle told me about throwing my mind up to the hilltop and being able to see what's there. What, seven years after spending a year in this place where I see this particular building every day, it's 1996. I'm deployed to Saudi Arabia. I see one of the first books ever written about remote viewing. It talks about Operation Grill Flame and McMonagull and Lynn Buchanan and all those guys. And in the photo section, I'm looking at this in the BX tent, the hard-shell tent they call it.

And I'll be darned, there is a photo of that very building that I just described to you that I used to see every day from the building where we were trained by the NSA Cryptologic School in Russian. And I realized this is the same building. And then I remember little things my uncle would ask me when I would drive down to Alabama online. weekends to visit him from Maryland and he would know stuff going on in the class that I hadn't told him. And so in 96, I'm going, okay, this remote viewing stuff, this is exactly what he told me about in 1986, about throwing your mind long distances and reading what's there. And this, this army group that developed this did it in this building, which was right next door to my, what's going on here, you know, and so for years, and he never confirmed to me that it was the remote viewing

thing, but you zip ahead to just a few years ago, 2016, no, 2015, something like that. And I meet Lynn Buchanan for the first time. Now, for those who don't know, Lynn Buchanan worked with Joe McMonagall and those guys, you know, they were the original remote viewers for the Army. And I had the pleasure of meeting. Lynn through a mutual friend. And we were visiting and I just, I couldn't resist. I had to ask him. And I said, hey, would you guys ever have used government personnel to train remote viewers,

you know, as targets unwittingly? And he kind of looked at me and smiled and he goes, you know, kind of like, why, whatever do you mean? And anyway, we got to talk and, um, I told them about being in that FBI class in 89, and he said, oh, that was on the fan X. I'm like, yeah. And long story short, I realized that there had only been two FBI classes run through this particular NSA school at Fort Meade, ours and the one after ours. And then they stopped doing it and started sending everybody back to Monterey.

And in each FBI class, there were nine FBI people and always one NSA person. Now, in our class, the NSA person was a real quiet young lady. For a year, she never socialized with us after hours or on weekends. And we all got pretty close. But she kept her distance. Well, over the years, after I learned about remote viewing and after I learned how to do it, I began to realize, wait a minute, we were being remote viewed. And she was the antenna.

Because the way it works is you can put one of your own in the vicinity. of the target you're trying to read and you basically your your psyche you know your mind hones in on that antenna and it makes the signal stronger so to speak is how it works well i've realized okay she's the antenna for these remote viewers to read each one of us in this class so i kind of threw that at him and he was being real quiet and smiling and anyway how he confirmed it to me was you know he said yeah Yeah, they would do that. But he knew the young lady for the NSA that was in our class. He described her description and he knew her name.

So he confirmed for me that that building we were seeing, yep, that was the RV building. And yes, we were being. And what happened was the FBI needed people trained in language. The army needed unwitting targets to train their RV people. So the FBI said, yeah, we'll send you nine bodies and, you know, train them in Russian and, you know, you can watch them do whatever. And that's that that that's what was going on when I was in language training. Now, this isn't just a speculation of mine. I obviously got it confirmed by one of those original guys.

And so, you know, that that's just a taste, you know, a sample of just some of the. weird, interesting things that are relevant to some of the stuff I've written about that we've all talked about, you know, and stuff. And that, I, you know, it's those stories which kind of there's that mundane part of my career. I say mundane because, no, not everybody gets to do that kind of stuff, but not everybody in that stuff, you know, experiences all, all this weird side stuff going on. So, you know, I. going back to 96, you know, that was when I was beginning to put together all that suspicion that our class was used. And that pretty much revealed to me partially how my uncle knew things that I hadn't told him.

And it was one of those things that was kind of astounding, you know, that I would learn about. But the nature of the job, even though, as he said, the deeper you go in that world, the more you meet people that have experienced this, that know about this stuff, it's still something that you don't talk to talk about with just anybody. Okay, it's there, it's under the surface, and you get better at recognizing after talking for a couple minutes with somebody or listening to them in certain situations, you can tell, okay, this person knows. So it's like this little, not a little club, it's like this little, little subcultural thread running through the ranks. And I'm pretty sure that that's how they draw people for programs like remote viewing and things like that.

Now, my uncle was teaching me all sorts of weird stuff. From the before I started with the FBI, through the FBI years, and, you know, through the Air Force years. And, you know, I was the stuff he taught me, I was practicing and doing, you know, what he instructed me to do. And that's where the, this is where it gets wild, but that's where the necromancy comes in. Okay, I wasn't expecting to hear that word in this conversation. Yeah. Well, let's, yeah, let's talk about your uncle, man, because this is a pattern, like you said, that would follow you throughout your careers. And I find that intriguing that, you know, these things do become very contained and familial.

We see this all the time with intelligence communities. You could trace back the generations of people who work in that, in the military. But okay, so sorry. Right. I'm sure they do. So tell me about this necromancy. What is this about? Yeah, it's, um,

what you're willing to share. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's, there, there was, there was a point I was thinking of. And then I, I kind of, a way to, to intro this that I kind of lost there. I had it briefly. But, yes, they do recruit, they will try their best to recruit through family lines. Like my uncle told me, you know, before I started working for the Bureau. He said, you know, I watched you and your sisters from the time you were little. And he says, you're the one who's curious.

He said, these things scare your sisters. They could have developed it, but it scares them. He says, you're the one who was curious about it. He says, you get spooked because you grew up watching those, as he put it, those damn horror movies. But he goes, you're curious. And so he said, that's why, you know, he had selected me to mentor. And I had in December of 79 a really vivid and very impactful, I guess you'd call it an awakening or an enlightenment experience. And he had visited just months before this happened.

And that was the first time I noticed that his focus was on me. I mean, he always got along with my dad, you know, for a year. So they had their rapport and they would talk and stuff like that. And, you know, my sisters were his nieces, but he talked to me the most. And I noticed it back then. I was like, he keeps asking me questions and stuff, you know, whatever. And some months later in December of 79, I wake up one morning. And the first thing I do is look at my hands. I'd turn 16 a couple of months before. I look at my hands and my first thought is, these hands aren't mine. And I get up, I walk through the the house and I see my sisters. I see my mom. And I'm a little bit, it's, it's almost like I'm surprised to see them. Or I'm wondering, okay, I know them as my sisters. This is the person who is my mom, but are they really, you know, is this really my sisters? Is this really my mom? And it kind of got, you know, comical later that evening. I'm sitting in the living room watching the whole family,

you know, we're watching TV, you know, doing our things. And I'm kind of looking around. And I'm kind of looking around like almost like who are these people that kind of thing now you got to remember i was a nerdy kid i never did drugs i never smoked weed or anything you know so this wasn't anything like that and um i i never it's not like then i went to sleep one night woke up and i was the person i was before no i to this day i am that person who woke up that morning and um you know so it it didn't totally surprised me, you know, looking back that my uncle's mentorship was in the realm of the stuff and what he was talking about, the weird stuff. Well, a little over a year after that enlightenment experience, I had this, I just realized I'd forgotten to tell you about these

things before, so this is good stuff. I'd had this dream. And it was singularly the most vivid dream, and I have vivid dreams all the time, but this was an extremely vivid dream that I woke up startled, and I kid you not, over the next 20 years or so, pieces of that dream came true. I found myself in the situations in those places. And it was startling at times when it first started, when I first started experiencing the things in the dream. Then I got used to it. You know, years later, I asked my uncle about that dream. I said, what was that? What, and he did one of his famous, um, we can't really talk about that right now. He says, but you were shown years ahead. And, uh, he said, it'll happen again. You know, but he, uh, he, he, he, he, he wouldn't explain it any more than that. And, uh, anyway, he, um, what that did was that started a really weird period of my life from the time.

I graduated high school and all through college in which I experienced strange deja vu, strange recognizing people who I'd never met before. All that classic new age stuff you hear about, right? And then by the time I finish college, he overtly starts mentoring me and he knows I'm interested in this stuff. And, you know, we talk about these weird experiences. We talk about my weird experiences. and he teaches me to do a couple of things like he teaches me a specific way to read two books,

the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that was a really interesting experience. And when I read those books the way he specifically taught me, I could see things in them that I didn't see before. And it just, it unlocks the whole thing. And then he taught me, told me to start wearing this thing that I made, just from a leather bootstrap, certain number of knots in it. And I was supposed to wear this all the time, except when I was in the shower, you know, because it would wash off whatever. And I wore one, it was he would call it the string.

And it was always just made out of leather like a boot lace. And I wore one of those for decades every day. And if it got old and broke, I would just make a new one. And with this thing, he taught me, this is before I went to work for the FBI, remember? And this has a point to all this. He taught me how to use that thing to communicate with someone psychically miles away, using a particular star in the evening. And he's teaching me this.

I'm having weird experiences where I keep waking up at 3.30 in the morning. And I sit up. I'm nervous. I feel compelled to go in and turn the TV on. I turn the TV on. And there's some, that right there on the first channel I come to, there's some show that does or does. will pertain to my activities. For example, first time it happens, I'm living in San Diego in,

this is in November of 86. And I wake up, you know, just kind of real nervous, you know, someone in the house or whatever. I get up, it's 3.30. I'm like, I got to go turn the TV on. So I go turn the TV on. And it's an episode of I spy, the old 60s series, I spy. It's specifically the episode where they're chasing a terrorist around a NASA facility. Okay? November 86, I wake up at 3.30 in the morning. I mean, I look at the clock. I go downstairs.

I turn the TV on. I spy a terrorist at NASA. One month later, he has told me to come visit him. I do my first solo drive across the country to go visit him in Alabama. I drive from California and Alabama. Never did the drive by myself before. and he says bring a suit. And so I brought a suit anyway.

When I got there, he told me, he goes, okay, the day after tomorrow, you're going to drive up to Birmingham or Huntsville. And you're going to take this application you're going to fill out tomorrow to the Redstone Arsenal, the NASA office at Redstone Arsenal. And so, okay. So I did that. I filled the thing out the next day. The day after that, I drove up to Huntsville, went to the building he told me to go to, went to this back door that he told me to go to. I knocked, a guy opened the door and says, are you Walter?

Like, yeah. He goes, you got something for me? I'm like, yeah, and I handed in the envelope. And he's like, okay, thank you. Go see the museum. Enjoy yourself. Oh, okay. And so, you know, I saw the NASA Museum there at Huntsville,

and that was actually my first application to. Uncle Sam. And which makes, you know, when you and I have talked before, I told you about, recently I told you about the two groups doing background investigations on me at the same time. And the FBI was like, who are those guys? Well, I had put in that application to this NASA installation a year before I put in the application to the FBI.

eye. So, you know, there's these two groups. As I told you, there's this two-track thing going on in my career. So anyway, I turn in that application. I go back, I visit with my uncle. And, you know, he, that's when he starts telling me really weird stories about, you know, he goes, someday I'll take you to a place where, you know, these things that you would call monsters exist. And he told me about his own remote viewings and seeing the past and his own experiences. And remember, this is all before I went to work for the FBI. Now, what's important here with all this stuff, you know, before I tell you more, is that you take psychological battery tests, okay, to work for Uncle Sam in these jobs.

They give you psych tests. If you're a nut, if you're off your rocker, they're going to see that, okay, between the background, between these profiles, between this, that, and the other. If you're a nut, they're going to. to know it. Okay. So think about all this weird stuff. My uncle, who'd spent decades in the Intel community, was teaching me, telling me to do at the same time he's having me apply to these federal agencies and the wild stuff, we haven't even got to the necomancy, the wild stuff I'm doing while an employee in the national security community trusted with classified and all this stuff.

and I never had a problem getting a promotion. I never had a problem getting my security clearances continued. Never had any kind of problems with anything. And I took lots of psych batteries. And I bring that up because, you know, some people would say, how in the heck do you get to do all those things if this nutty stuff going on? Well, my point is that it's not nutty, that there's people in there, like he said that it's very, very real to them.

And, you know, when he started moving me towards this stuff, he would say, you've got to learn how to do this because people are depending upon you knowing how to do it. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident, restoration is guaranteed, pour your money back.

Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com slash Spotify. Terms apply. You know, and I'm like, who? And he goes, never mind that. You know, you'll learn that down the road, but you need to, any fear you need to get over with. So anyway, so I go to work for the FBI. There's the two different groups doing backgrounds

on me. And, oh, to bring it back to that dream. So a month before I go visit him, I have this dream about secret agents, federal agents, at a NASA installation hunting a terrorist. Well, the next month, he has me go turn in an application to NASA. And then later in my career, I become a federal agent. And later in my career, I very specifically become a counterterrorism guy. So, So, you know, I've never, I mean, that dream. And another time the dream happened, 3.30 in the morning. This is before I went to work for the FBI. Woke up, startled, go into the living room, turn the TV on.

And it's, I kid you not, it's an episode of the old 60s series, The Time Tunnel. And this particular episode, the first time this happens, is the one where they go back to the Trojan War. And there's Ulysses and all that. of essentially the story of the Iliad. And remember, he was having me read the Iliad and the Odyssey in a particular way. So one of these 3.30 in the morning wake-ups, and it's a time-traveling TV show about that. So, you know, there's that. And on two or three other occasions, 3.30 in the morning, but the first time I'm working for the FBI, 3.30 in the morning, I wake up, startled, turn the TV.

turn the TV. By this time, I'm like, okay, I'll turn the TV on. And there's an episode of the show called Branded with Chuck Connors where he was a secret agent for the U.S. government in the post-Civil War. And there's this episode where he goes undercover in this group that was going to try to assassinate President Grant. Well, my first, let's see, my first few months in Manhattan, 3.30 in the morning wake up, it's the episode of that show the first time. Then two years. later, it happens again. The same show, the same episode, and it's at the same point in the episode when I turned it on before. And it's two years later. And then it happened again, like a year later. So, you know, he's a, he's a military federal agent, which I become a military federal agent. And when you do that, you do protective service stuff as well, you know, kind of like Secret Service type gigs on people. And I did several of those kinds of things when I was an agent. So there was all this, all this thematic weird stuff going on that sounds like it's being

done on purpose. You know, just think about it. The same, you know, the wake up, 3.30 in the morning compelled to watch TV. And I learned after those years that that was happening that one way, you know, one way, agents are communicated to in the field was through that scrawl that's on the bottom of the screen that's on the news, you know? Well, remember, the news didn't start doing that until after 9-11. Before that, a scrawl could be

transmitted across the screen, but the people watching it can't see it unless they have a decoder. Field agents have a decoder. They sit there, turn on the channel at the right time they're supposed to, and they turn their decoder on. and the instructions appear going across the screen. Invisible to everybody else, you've got to have the decoder. So if there's that kind of technology, I mean, you know, this business of, because I've heard other people experiencing this, the being, you know, awakened at the same time and such. But so, you know, there was that kind of stuff going on.

But then came the necromancy. And this was in late, or, early. Early 91, I was working in Manhattan with the FBI. And he taught me how to use that leather string I described with the knots. He taught me, he instructed me on a process, a method of raising a dead spirit to get information from them. And I was supposed to learn it so that I could get information from this spirit. with specific instructions. I mean, he told me,

okay, get some index cards, write this down. You know, so I sat there because we were on the phone. And he gave me the steps. Basically, I was to find a cemetery that was at least 150 or more years old. So I found an old cemetery. I think it's the old Northport cemetery on Long Island. So if there's any Long Islanders listening, they'll know exactly where that is.

And it looked like something out of dark shadows. It's on a hillside. It's an old colonial era cemetery. There's the old flinty broken headstones. Some of them are tilting and there's scraggly trees. You know, it's just, it's wonderful. You know, it's, again, it's like something out of a classic hammer horror film. And, you know, I was to pick a female because being male, and, you know, female agents or necromancers would use a male ghost.

and I had to consider the name. I had to try to make sure that I had someone who looked like they were an English speaker. And he told me, he says, now the problem you're going to have is you get back 150 years or more. You might get somebody who's English, you have a hard time understanding because the way they spoke English. So he said, he goes, I know you studied French in high school and college. He goes, you might want to take up French again because French was very common back during the colonial era, you know, which it was because French was the international language, if I'm not mistaken during that time.

And so I picked a woman who had died in the early 1800s, and there I was. I, you know, would go out at this prescribed time doing the prescribed things. And he told me, he says, look, it's going to start. You might see like a little hazy light. It goes, then you'll, you know, you might hear some noises. Essentially when it happens, when she appears to you, you'll initially just say, see bones standing there, like a skeleton. He says, then you'll see her recompose. So the, you know, her rotted flesh will recompose on the bones. And then it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll go from decompose

back to the living flesh. And I was supposed to pick someone who died, um, whose lifespan was older than I was at the time. Like, you know, I was 28 years old, 27, 28 years old at the time. I was supposed to pick somebody who, you know, died at 50 or whatever, because he told me the dead spirit will attune her appearance to the age I am when talking to her. So I would see what she looked like at 27, 28, you know, when she's talking to me. And, you know, he's telling me this, and I'm like, uh, is this kind of, is this, is there anything scary about, you know, here I'm a big bad FBI guy, you know, so is there anything scary about there? you know and he says he goes initially it it might be because you're you're disturbing their rest

you're pulling them back into a body that they haven't been in for a while and he goes it he goes it he goes it aggravates a hell out of him he's from the south so it aggravates a hell out of you know and he goes they go she might try to scare you to get you to stop he goes but you don't stop he goes now he goes your knees might give out you might be shaking and i'm like going oh hell no you know, I mean, I'm still, I still have been unable to watch the entire movie of The Exorcist because that creeps me out so much. So here, you know, he's telling me this crap. And I'm like, oh, he goes, but you stand there, you stay there. And, you know, there was this, I can't remember what the words were. I'll have to dig it out. But there was this parole, this certain thing that, you know, it wasn't like an incantation.

It was more like a way to come in. And he goes, then he goes, look, when she realizes you're not going to give up, she'll calm down. and then basically she'll ask you what you want to know you know and he told me you know you can ask that she would be able to see in seven year increments as far back as you want to go about anybody you want to know and he even said ahead he says now he goes I wouldn't recommend you do it now but you know down the road you get more experience more comfortable with this he goes they'll show you how you're going to die okay all the That one. I don't need to see that, you know, just yet, but he said it was possible. So, so he gave me this instruction and I would be out there on the nights I was supposed to be out

there trying to make contact. Now, for the record, I never saw the hazy light. I never heard any voices. Oh, I even did the thing where he said, now look, during the winter months, it goes, particularly where you're living, it's wet and cold. He goes, it doesn't work very good then. He says, so what you need to do this summer has gather some, I mean, this sounds like a, a, a, Again, a hammer horror film. You know, he sounds like Van Helsing. It goes, go out there and gather some dirt from the grave, some soil from the grave, and, you know, grind it up, and you heat it in the oven this many degrees,

and you keep doing that until it's a fine powder. And he goes, keep that in a little bottle or something I kept it in a spice bottle. And he said, you know, you pour a little bit in your palm. You go to your door, your entry to your house. And he goes, and you blow that dust. It's almost like voodoo. You know, you blow that dust in the doorway. he goes, then you do your focusing, and he goes, she'll come to your doorway.

I'm like, oh, oh, you know, it's bad enough me going out to a cemetery at night doing this. Do I really want these ghosts, you know, zooming up to my door? Hey, Walter. And he would, he would kind of, he'd be like, you've got to get over the scared stuff. This is where he said, you know, people are depending upon you knowing how to do this. And, but I never saw or heard anything overt. and, you know, there were times where I wondered, okay, is this just a big joke? There's some guy with a camera and they're having a good laugh.

It's like, okay, the boy takes instructions. He does what he's told. Ha, ha, ha. We got him out here in this cemetery. What a jackass. That did cross my mind. What's interesting was later when I was in the Air Force at Wright Patterson, the apartment I lived in, quite frankly, there was something else.

There was someone else there with me, a ghost. And I was convinced. and I had initially heard that an Air Force guy had committed suicide in that apartment complex just a couple of years before I got assigned there. So I assumed, oh my gosh, I got this guy's apartment. And it was never anything that scared me. It was, interestingly, I just felt the presence, but it never did anything to bother me. So I've been very, as you might imagine, I'm very cautious with psychics and seers and stuff like that.

In fact, I'm hard on them. I make them tell me because there's so many fakers out there. And when I find one that I trust, you know, I will go to that person and ask them things. And long story short, I told her, this one lady, Jessica, about this ghost. And I told her that I thought it was the guy who committed, that I was told had committed suicide. And she goes, oh, no, no. She goes, this person's female and you brought her with you. And immediately I thought, oh, my God, is it the lady I was communicating with in Long Island?

Right, right, right. Five years ago. Or, yeah, five, yeah, it was five years prior. And I thought, oh, wow. So nothing overt happened, but did I attach her to me? Well, for the longest time, I was thinking it was her. But then when I started getting into the Empire of the Wheel stuff, I began to wonder if it wasn't the woman who is the center of the Empire of the Wheel investigation.

But you can see, and I'm still not sure, but I mean, I'm an FBI employee. I go on from there to be a federal agent for the Air Force. I'm in the national security community, and here's my uncle teaching me essentially necromancy and telling me I got to learn this stuff and know how to do this stuff. And because of the weird things that had been happening to me anyway, all my life, I went along with it. You know, I'm like, okay, you know, no problem. Yeah, you trust your mentor, yeah.

Yeah, and he never gave me any reason not to. Right, right. Well, that's kind of the point I want to make is like it, I find it interesting. that your uncle would always say, people are expecting this of you. He was, you know, he was moving the goalpost forward

as you started to unravel all of this stuff, deep in kind of the shadows of what you were doing, as opposed to what you're doing on the surface, which is really interesting. Yeah, I still had my, I was doing that counterintelligence, counter espionate,

I mean, all that sexy federal agent FBI stuff. Yeah. And expected, you know, to do this stuff. And remember, as I said, he was an expert handler. When I learned how to do asset handling myself, basically the art of, and I don't mean this in the evil sense, but the art of manipulating other people to do your bidding, so to speak. I mean, I realized, oh, wow, the methods and

tactics he was using on me. And it's just like, Bravo, because it just worked beautifully. He knew how to work me. Man. Well, okay, so you hit on a couple keywords that I would not be doing my euphological duty if I didn't ask Walter. Your special agent with the Air Force during your time at Wright Patterson, you had your uncle guiding you along the way. He knows people. He probably, like a lot of intelligence people, knows a lot more than he's letting him. on and he wants to see where you take it. So I have to ask, during Wright Pat, your time there, I mean, did you find out anything? Was there a craft there from Roswell? Right Patterson is like that place for us in the UFO field, as opposed to like Area 51. Right Pat is where a lot of people

think all this stuff is going on. So I got to ask, man. Are specifics or generals? Is there anything euphological you came across with your time at Wright Pad? What I came away with from Wright Pat directly was that it explains why I say that I think 90% of what people are reporting as UFOs is either some type of classified military or aerospace engineering world technology. being developed. That's why I, that's where I came to this 90 percentile thing, because the nature of what I was seeing, you know, the fact that they are always 20 years ahead of what they're admitting to, okay, some of the detailed nature of some of the, the things I saw really convinced me. This is why when people say, ah, we couldn't possibly have such and such kind of technology, I disagree. I'm like, you know, you don't know what they're working on. And there's all sorts of factors that go into, you know, when people describe something, I mean, dating back to the 50s, they have witnessed testimony has demonstrated that people in their excitement will say, it was going, you know, 20 gazillion miles an hour, you know, and yet when they actually look at the evidence, the data, they have very often.

often determined. Now, the thing was actually going several hundred miles per hour, of course, but it's still within the range of what was being developed, of what was, you know, the technology, what was pushing the envelope at that time. Not in every case, but in a lot of it. So the point is, people see something that they don't think they're military would have. Right?

And in the excitement of what they're seeing, details can exaggerate. I mean, this is just a fact. That's why you have the protocols of asking the questions. That's why you have people describe something over and over again because you need to note any changes in that. Or you're trying to help them, you know, get back to, you know, get a little bit more down to what they really saw, you know, all sorts of factors you have to consider. So I was working with classified technology every day because it's no secret that the U.S. government and the U.S. military conducts double agent operations. What's secret about that are who the double agents are and the specifics of what they're, there's this stuff called passage material of what they're using. It's the specifics that are classified that I and others who've done that cannot talk about.

Certain tradecraft, you just aren't going to talk about because it's. still being used. But the general fact that we do these things, I mean, people write about that, you know, nonfiction and fiction, you know, all the time. So because I was doing that work, I had to be, I was personally familiar with the, what is passage material? When you're going to run a DA, you essentially, the double agent is going to a foreign intelligence service and saying, gosh, darn it, I hate my country, or I'm mad at my country, or gosh darn it, I'm in a financial bind and I want to sell you this classified information, you know, and, you know, the foreign intelligence service goes, oh, and they want to get into a clandestine

relationship with you. Okay, we'll help you out here, but you need to bring us more. And that's what me, a guy running a DA wants to hear. It's like, oh, okay, they believe you're a DA. It's all a, you know, you're a double, you know. And so when you're running those kinds of ops, you have to select and provide that agent, that double agent guy with the passage material. So most of this stuff is real information. It could be tweaked so that they don't quite get the right thing. Or it could be, it was,

we took the technological development in this direction. It was a dead end. So now we're off in this direction, but we're going to use this dead end, right, as passage material. But it's still classified, right? And it still has some value. And so I'm seeing, things that I still won't talk about technology-wise. Now, was I seeing flying saucers that do it? No, that's not what I saw. I'd venture to say nobody saw that kind of stuff despite what, you know, some people like to say. But you do see stuff that could lead to that kind of technology. You know, I did see stuff that, remember, this was in the mid-late 90s, second half of the 90s. I wonder now how far they've developed what I saw 25 years ago, see.

And that's why, again, when I, some stuff I see, I go, you guys, that's not from another world. And those of you who are saying we couldn't possibly have anything like that, boy, are you wrong, but you can't say anything about that. I heard something recently, read something recently, where this particular thing was described. I'm reticent to say, you know, I just don't want to connect it with, you know, anyway. There's this particular particular technology. It's a drone type of technology. And it was described as it gets deployed before the first aircraft come in and strike. Okay.

And I learned about that. I was told about that in 90, or 95 in kind of a hush-hushed kind of conversation with a superior officer who was doing more secret sneaky-diki stuff. And I needed to know a part of it for what I was doing. And that was just something you just didn't talk about. And I just recently saw this thing, these orbs, something that was like in the shape of an orb or a sphere that it was described as, you. know, this gets deployed ahead of the aircraft, the strike craft. And, you know, there's people that say, oh, they're possible.

What is? That's silly. That's ridiculous. And I'm thinking, well, I heard about that while in the Air Force 25, you know, years ago or more. So, yeah, we are having stuff like this. So on my official duties, now also, you'll like this. when I first became an agent, okay, yeah, I already had a top secret SCI clearance with the FBI because of what I was doing. So what happens is when you get, when you translate over into the military job, you bring with you your level and then they add to it your accesses and your clearance levels that you need for your new job as an agent.

So this was kind of funny. We had in our class a guy who he and I kind of bumped heads a little bit. He was he was going to be super agent. And, you know, he was just all ego and stuff. younger guy. And so we go over together to the vault. This is in LA when we're new agents. And we go over to the vault to get our briefings. And there's a room full of Air Force people there. They give the first level briefing. And then they say, with the exception of Colonel so-and-so, Major So-and-So, Master Sergeant, so-and-so, blah, blah, blah, blah,

and Special Agent Bosley, the rest of you are dismissed. And this guy I'm with, he's like, oh, you get to stay. I'm like, yeah, I'll see you back. at the office. And I remember, I'd already been in this world in this community for six years. He was brand spanking new to it. So, uh, uh, they briefed the next level. And they say, okay, with the exception of Colonel so-and-so, major so-and-so, and special agent Bosley, all of you were dismissed. And so we go to the, you know, this next level. And finally, I'm the only guy there, you know, getting, you know, additional levels. I show up the office. Yeah, I go right back to the office and I've been over there for an hour.

And this one agent, he goes, oh, did you go to lunch or something? I'm like, no, I just finished. He goes, you were in the vault the whole time? Like, yeah. It says, how many levels at what? I go, now, you know better than to ask me that. Yeah. I tell that story because the way you're briefed on these levels, it's not like you're sitting there and they're telling you, these are all the secret programs up to this level. These are all the secret. No, no, no, no, no. They brief you to be cleared, to be exposed and learn about those as you need to know them. But the way they tell you is this interesting kind of template. And when I look back on it, I realized, real soon after that, I realized, wait a minute, on a particular level, the way they gave the template generic description

for the kinds of things I would be exposed to, I was briefed into a level that involved space stuff. And what happens is when you go to work on something, they see what level, okay, yeah, you're up to this level. Then they read you in on the program, you know, up to that level. And, you know, that's when you learn specifics. but what's interesting is the stories my uncle told me. Now, this is what gets into.

I'm describing to you there, you know, how to get, you know, how the clearances work and the briefings work and how the job worked and the stuff I learned on the job while I'm on duty. Then there's the stuff I learned from my uncle when I'm having, you know, in private time. And these are the things that it's late at night. I'm down in his territory. And he says, come on, let's go for a walk. And we go walking around his neighborhood, walking,

a big circle around his neighborhood at like midnight. And he's telling me, he's telling me about, well, I'll tell you, you know, in 97, he told me about how many ET groups we were in contact with. He was telling me about how, you know, some of our personnel do this, not an exchange program, like that Serpo stuff that popped up later. But just kind of a, you meet them and you learn their stuff. And, you know, we teach them ours. And I have no way to verify this.

I never saw this in a file. I never witnessed it myself. This is all, you know, what he told me. But the reason it resonated with me, the reason I'm telling you is it would fit. within the clearance template that I got in that briefing. Now, people say, well, he was pulling your leg that time, just wanting to see how much you believe. And that is possible because there's this little issue called inking the waters,

which I'll explain in a minute. But one reason you would get told something out of the office, right, in private time would be for the plausible denial. ability. See? So if you go running your mouth on something you're not supposed to, well, I didn't get that briefing through OSI. I didn't sit in an Air Force vault and be told that. No, I was told that by, you know, my uncle walking around at midnight, you know. So it could be questioned, right? If I'm running my mouth, they could say, well, that's BS because, you know, your uncle told you. And, you know, it's like, oh, okay, plausible deniability. Tell you some of the wilder stuff in an informal setting so it could be denied if you run your mouth because they're always testing if they can trust you. Now, let's jump to the other possibility that, yeah, of course he was telling me a load of bullshit. Well, that's where the inking of the waters comes in. That is, okay, we want to test this guy to see if we can bring him to the next level of trust in our

operations. So here's what we'll do. We'll give him this a unique little piece of information that we know these particular details. We've only told him. We'll talk. We'll Tell him, you know, keep it to yourself. It's close to vest. Don't talk about this. And if the specific things we told him start showing up and what other people are talking about or shows up in a news report or something like that, then we know we can't trust him because we told him not to say anything about that. That's called inking the water. You see, you know, you drop that ink in the water and you see where it ends up. So if you, if you're a good soldier, so to speak, you don't, you don't run your mouth about it. You just keep it to yourself like you were told to. And then that tells them they can trust you for that next level,

which may not have anything to do with such spacey, spooky things. It's all just, and testing your goalability could be part of it. Remember, I said he was a master handler. So you eventually get to this point where you have presence of mind enough to go, okay, what's the BS? You know, where am I pulling my leg? What's the truth? Because you've had enough personal weird experiences that you don't dismiss the weird, right?

So you're kind of like, if I hadn't had these weird experiences, I would think this is just a bunch of crazy, nutty stuff he was telling me, just to test me. But I've had all these other weird experiences for several years now. So if this isn't a load of nonsense, holy smokes, this must be true. And, you know, yeah, yeah, it just, it's, and that's the world you work in. That's where, you know, in your head space. And in the middle of all that, at least in my situation, there were legitimate bona fide, strange things happening. paranormal things happening. Let me ask you this, Walter.

So I know, you know, there's always eyes watching the other, watching the other, watching the other. With all of this stuff you were digging into in your private time, I would assume somebody, other than your uncle was kind of keeping an eye on you. Did that ever come up? Did anyone ever, I guess, you know, approach you and be like, Yo, Bosley, quit raising spirits from the dead and interrogate? Like, never? That never happened. Okay.

I wrote a little song to remind you, Choice Hotels, get you more of the experiences you value. The Can Bea Hotels got it all. A rooftop ball, have a ball. Bring a date, your squad, or even your mom. Book direct at Choiceotails.com. No one ever. me and ever said you're into weird stuff or what? Never. In fact, the only time I ever

encountered people who were clearly, it was more, they were watching out for me. And I was pretty convinced they knew my uncle, you know, because obviously he couldn't be everywhere at once, but he, he would have associates. Because sometimes they would mention something weird. I mean, there was this one guy who was, when I was a new agent, he came in to do some of our training. and I was convinced that he was somebody who knew my uncle. When I got to L.A. Air Force Base, during my career, whether I was FBI or Air Force or whatever, this was the days before everyone had cell phones at all, I would go to a pay phone to call my uncle every Friday because he didn't want me calling from home because he didn't want my wife knowing that I was making these calls.

This was business, you know, secret classified business, you know. And we weren't doing anything that would piss her off. But, you know, so one day I'd been at L.A. Air Force Base for less than two weeks, and I'm making my report. And he says, he says, I know you've been over to the BX. There's an older African American gentleman there, kind of tall, big guy. And he described him to a T. He knew his name.

I said, yeah. He goes, yeah, you just met him last week, right? I'm like, yeah. He says, he's a friend of mine. We were on the Army boxing team together. And he told me, he says, if anything unexathing, expect it happens and you can't get in touch with me. The kind of thing you'd need to contact me, he goes, you can go to him.

He's trusted. I'm like, okay. And he would do things like that. He would tell me who I could go to, you know, or I would have people who would pop up in my life that just kind of I could tell, you know, with the things we talked about and, you know, little interesting things they would do told me, uh, okay, yeah, he's, probably affiliated with my uncle. And the connections would be, you know,

this person was either also military intel or, you know, where they said they lived was real close to where he lived and they were, you know, you begin to get good at, okay, yeah, this. So he would have people watching out for me. And so that's the only experience with what you described I would have. I never had anybody. And like I said, I always got moved forward and upward.

I never, there was never a problem with any promotions or anything. So, you know, that further convinced me, uh, okay, you know, and my uncle wasn't wrong. There was, I met, you know, some of the older guys in counterintelligence in the FBI. And I would have interesting conversations with them. It's like, oh, wow. Okay, they're into, you know, one guy who was a big wig and FBI counterintelligence back in the 80s was really into Tolkien and, and, and, you know, all sorts of interesting stuff. And he was a counterintelligence guru, you know, for the FBI.

And they teach you when you're learning surveillance, they jokingly call it the sixth sense. But they said, you will get, they said, you'll develop the knack for, he goes, you do this enough, you'll develop the knack for anticipation, we call it. And I experienced that early on where you just, you're set up in a place, you're expecting, and you just get the feeling, and you're right,

you've nailed it, you've, you've identified your person that you're looking for. And you've really got nothing other than just that feeling. They've shown up at a certain time, you're like, that's got to be the person. And early on, I experienced that, and they note that. They'll pull you aside and say, they said, you got that, it was a weird feeling. I'm like, yeah, it was just like I knew that it was like, uh-huh, you know, that's it. And my, I had an annoying talent when I was on the surveillance team, and it's still a talent I have today. I'm really good at knowing when nothing's going to happen.

Now, okay, you've got a team of people out there. Sometimes you've got an airplane in the sky, which costs money, you know, the fuel and everything. You've got a whole team mobilized. You're expecting the big activity. and when you got one guy on the team that says, like early on, I can usually tell this or I'm like, uh, it's not going to happen. What do you mean? Nothing's going to happen today. And it'll be true. Like, not only does it just a regular day, it's just like the person doesn't even go out of the

house. Everybody's sitting there for nothing. And I don't know why, but I've had an uncanny, annoying ability at being able to read the room and just know that. It's like this weird, weird feeling. but it's this, yeah, it's this premonition kind of stuff. It's this, it's that weird sixth sense. And they do, you know, we mentioned before about people that are recruited. They, they do. They look for people who, as near as they can tell, might have some type of natural, you know, I'm by no means the only guy.

I am not special in that. There's, you know, they look for that. And, you know, each person, you know, your mentor gets you to develop. it. And my mentor was right. I can get spooked. The unseen world, the paranormal world, there's things in it that are very scary. And I take it very seriously. And, you know, the one thing that has always bothered me is the concern of crossing paths with something demonic, something that means me harm. That, that, that, that, one bothers me. He even told me, he says, you're worried about possession. And I remember responding,

yeah, I'd rather, I'd rather, you know, you kind of go Rodney Dangerfield. Yeah, I'd rather avoid that, you know. It's, you know, but I'm like, yeah. Well, and we've heard that that, like, you know, people like Leslie Kane and Luis Elizondo have said that there are factions within the intelligence agencies or Department of Defense or the government overall who vehemently think these things could be like demonic in terms of UFO, it's paranormal, all that kind of stuff. Okay. What really, what blew me away back in, I think it was 2010, when Nick Redfern came out with his final events book, the first book, I believe, to talk about this so-called Collins

elite. Yeah. He's describing what his sword. is telling him that his guy who's a member of this group, the Collins elite, describing what this so-called Collins elite is. And essentially, it's this group of federal agents, primarily from military branches that was founded, get this, in 1952, there's a loaded year, right, in the UFO annals.

They're founded in 1952. And, yeah, these were the guys that, now they kind of started doing this before 52, but they became formalized secret, but formalized in 52. These were guys who had interviewed Jack Parsons before he died, and these are the guys who, like you're saying, there's a faction of this group that believes

that there are demonic extraterrestrials were, you know, posing as extraterrestrials, and that this kind of stuff has something to do with it. This, in my mind, would be mostly in the interdimensional's category, right? Because I, like you, and I believe there are extraterrestrial civilizations all over the universe, okay? And, but I think they're onto something with, you know, because Parsons and Hubbard believed it, you know, Parsons believed that he had opened a gate and that's what Roswell was about, you know, and then, but, so, yeah, had these guys messing with that. And this group, the Collins Elite, so here we are in 2010,

Nick Redfern's describing from sources what this group is. And I'm sitting here reading this, my jaws dropping, because everything they're describing describes what I know of my uncle's career to a T and my career to a T. I mean, I've been mentored by a guy who's teaching me all this paranormal stuff. I become a military agent, okay? I'm taught necromancy. I'm taught all this, you know, I'm eventually taught, you know, remote viewing. And it just, it fits and it just gives me goosebumps. And I'm thinking, okay, my uncle was telling me you need to learn how to do this stuff

because there's people expecting you to know how to do it. They're depending on you. And he's being real secretive about this, whatever this group is. I, right now, I'm convinced until I learn, you know, some data otherwise, that my uncle was grooming me for whatever this Collins elite is. He passed away in 2016. So I was going to ask if he was still around. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not able to press him on this or flat out ask him.

But it's, I suspect that that's what he was. grooming me for. All right. Well, with everything you've come across, Walter, whether it was in, you know, the surface level positions that you held or the stuff you were looking at on the side, alien abductions. I want to get your thoughts on this because there are a lot of people out there who claim that it's not only aliens doing this, but the military might be involved. We have this, I concept of military abduction, staged abductions. Yeah. So I got to ask, and this isn't something I ever tackle on the show. It's a little out of my wheelhouse, but in all of your research with what you've done, have you ever come across an alien abduction, first of all, that you think is authentic and credible and real? And second, do you buy into this my lab thing at all? Okay, on the my lab thing, it's, it's, it's.

It's, well, and on the alien abduction thing, too, on abduct, in abductions in general, I don't buy every story we hear because, you know, and we know why. Unfortunately, whether people are trying to just pull off a hoax or just defraud people, or they don't mean anything bad, but they just kind of want to be part of the fun, you know, whatever reason. People will make things up. We know that. And I think most of us are pretty good at when we're hearing. something that

that just doesn't sound authentic right. So in a general sense, I think there's a lot of stories out there where it's hogwash. But I think these abductions, some of them have happened.

I think in general, this has happened. It can happen. On the MyLabs thing, I think it has happened because I think we all see whether you've been in the military or not, I think we all see and aware that how they could do that, right, with the resources they have

available to them and the, you know, operational tactics and things. You could see how a military unit could do that. So, you know, under certain circumstances, yeah, I'm going to say it has been done because, you know, I'm familiar with, for instance, you guys have heard of rendition, right? extraordinary rendition in the Intel world when you, you know, pick, grab a suspect or one of their associates off the street, you know, and you, you're abducting them essentially, right? Or however, you know, you get them. We know that extraordinary rendition is a real thing. The agency got in trouble for that, if you recall, that was all over the news, some years back. So we know that's a real thing. And that's a much more casual version of what's described.

in these my lab situations. So the fact that I could easily see how it could be done, and I can think of reasons it would be done, I think that it probably has been done. But I don't buy every story I hear. Same with the alien abductions. I don't buy every story I hear. So, you know, it just, it's kind of a case-by-case thing. It's not a main part of any research I've done. So I don't really have any off the top of my head. that I go, oh, but if, like, we were to go through them and it was one I was familiar with, I'd go, oh, yeah, I think that is or, oh, no, I don't think that is, you know, that kind of thing. Well, with the My Lab thing, why do you think there would be a reason for them to do that if you're willing to comment in that? Well, it could be similar to why they do extraordinary renditions.

said person might have proposed some type of concern, if not a threat. So they want to get to that person before they take whatever action that they fear they're going to take. That's just one possibility. Another possibility is maybe some type of really advanced technology was being tested, but there was some danger about being in the proximity of it, like radiation, which has happened in a couple of Michael Schrat has got a book on Kendall right now and he recently talked about it in a talk where he went through the details and there was this family that it looks like they were exposed

because the radiation they had and it was some type of military technology. Well, I could see a MyLab team scooping somebody up in an instance like that and doing it like that for operational security purposes, you know, kind of on the spot or what have you, to examine the person, you know, to see, okay, what's the extent of this? Okay, what do they remember? What do they know? Now, here's, what's interesting is some people describe all sorts of weird things like the operatives will walk through a wall or something like that. Well, my mind goes back to, we know an MK Ultra back in the 50s and 60s, they had already developed an aerosolitan.

LSD. So if in the 50s, they could spray an aerosol LSD that would get people loopy, you know, imagine what they can do since just the year 2000 with some type of hallucinogenic injected into your breathing environment, okay, so that you're in an altered state of consciousness. So it looks like that team's walking through the wall and they're not really walking through the wall, but, you know, you're having that kind of psychedelic experience. And maybe they've refined it so well that you can't tell that you're high, right? Yeah. And, you know, if they can do that, we know that, you know, there have been developed by CIA and other, you know, government labs and stuff.

Other means to alter your perception. and so if they're wearing some type of protective suit and they've used these other means, well, that can be interpreted to be any kind of thing. And you never know. They could play mind games like, you know, it's some type of oxygen mask. But hey, let's paint the thing to look like an alien face because we're going to have this person under the influence. They're going to describe an alien face plausible liability right there, you know. Yeah, everyone's going to think they're crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. So my point is you can go back and see all these kinds of things that the military and the CIA were developing as far as the perception of people, you know, involved with whatever they're doing and how they mess with their perception. And you look at the history of that. And then you look at the things people are describing in my labs. And you realize, oh, okay, yeah, these teams could be employing. There could be an electronic signal technology that mess. with your perception. I mean, they've already got that crowd control stuff that. I'm shocked that we didn't see that deployed in the last four years, to be honest. It's like that thumper technology. It's the brainwave thing that makes people collapse and throw up all over themselves. And it's just, it's got off all these things.

And yet, this stuff was developed 10 or 15 years ago for crowd control stuff. I'm really shocked we didn't see that deployed in the last five years. I mean, seriously, it's kind of weird. But, you know, they're developing things like that. But my lab situations where, again, if you're exposed to something and they need to examine you, if they take you for whatever reason is some type of threat or concern, they need to, you know, get close to you and get you off the street or whatever, I can see that. You know, maybe you did see something you weren't supposed to see.

And, you know, they want to. do something to make you doubt what you saw or, or under sedation, they're able to ask everything they need to ask. And then when you come out of it, you don't remember the interrogation. Yeah. That's possible too. So it could be, those are just a few examples off the top of my head I can think of. Yeah. And there'll certainly be more. Yeah, that's totally fair. Yeah. Well, little side track from that question, Walter. We've heard that there have been spooks, and we've heard this for years, at these UFO conferences, mining information. Is this true?

Have you ever come across someone doing that or being at conferences? Yeah. Yeah, I've witnessed it. I've gone to, I went to conferences as an overall. OSI agent and observed. Now, I was looking for specific things. I was looking for foreign nationals. I had nothing.

The reason I was there had nothing to do with American flying saucer enthusiasts because I'm one of them too. You know, believe me, I'm there, you know, as an agent and I'm looking for specific things that are national security related.

But the other half of me is going, oh, listen to this guy. Tell this flying saucer story. It's totally cool. Yeah, you know, because I'm a flying saucer nerd too. So,

you know, it was perfect. But yeah, and I've been at other events where, you know, I'm 99% sure the guys I pointed out, anybody that's been in the military around military people, it's no joke. We make a joke about it, but you really can tell by the way they dress and the haircuts and stuff. You can tell the guys that aren't like undercover guys. It's hilarious to some, you know, some of them. But even the ones that aren't the overtly nerdy guys, you know, I'm usually pretty good at telling,

okay, yeah, that guy is probably, you know, what I think is. And then there's some behavior that, like, backs that up, you know. Yeah. So, yeah. And it does make sense for, you know, because think about it. What if you have, take a guy like, you know, well, our, our friend, our departed friend, Mark McCandlish, who passed away a couple of months ago. Let's say some, let's say he's when he's talking about the ARV, that. that he did the drawing for and everything,

or he's talking about some, you know, specific UFO that was witnessed. Let's say that what he's talking about really is something that was a classified craft being talked about. And let's say this is the first time he's talked details about it in public forum, right? Well, yeah, you're going to have your, your Air Force or your Navy, you know, guys or whoever, whatever branch this owns this thing. They're going to have their guys there to watch the talk.

to take the details and say, okay, you know, you come back and you say, write up your report, and it's like, yeah, this is how much he knows, because this is what he described, this is what it looks like, you know, so, and that's not a sinister thing. You're just going there to attend and see what this researcher knows, you know, and you're just going to report that. So you can figure out, okay, how did that get out or, oh, gee, gosh darn, we got to be more careful, that kind of thing, you know, so there's, there's legitimate reasons. for these people to be at these events. Yeah, it's not so much nefarious, but like I assume they show up at tech conferences or

spy conferences, you know, like, no doubt. The spy tech type of industry. Yeah, they'll go. Because sometimes you go there and it's like, oh, is there anything we can use, you know? Yeah. Or you run into every person you've ever worked with. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

Half of guys, you know, like, oh. you're working for them now. But yeah, there's legitimate, non-nefarious reasons for these people to show up. Now, some people, look, I get it. You know, when you're a civilian, you've never been in that world. My uncle told me before I started my career, he goes, look, it goes, get comfortable with, you're never really going to have true privacy. He says, you know, just get comfortable with that.

So it never bothered me. I mean, to this day, if they were watching me, because I ain't doing. doing anything that, you know, I wouldn't cop to, you know. Yeah. It's like I'm a regular boring guy, you know, I research my weird stuff. I have my weird sense of humor. So I don't worry about it. But, you know, I get it.

There's folks that, you know, just the idea that agents like that would show up at a UFO conference and, you know, be making notes, say, oh, oh, that's, that's, that's not right. They should be open about that. But, you know, you never really know why they're there. and that mystery, you know, that, I get it, that kind of makes people nervous. Do you, when you have things like the Doty situation and all that in the mix, you go, okay, yeah, you know, that doesn't help. Right, right. And I know we got the Doty stuff in the other one, so we won't go into that. Well, do you ever, Walter, do you ever worry that someone you have targeted or, um,

double crossed in the past ever like finding you or like coming back for revenge or anything like that? The only concern that I have to keep an eye out for would be from my counterterrorism days. And, you know, my family, because of what I've been into, you know, professionally for years, they have certain instructions. Like when I was overtly an agent, a badge carrying gun, toned agent, you know, I had to tell him, look, if we're ever out somewhere and, you know, some guy comes in to rob the place, you keep your mouth shut. You don't panic and say, Walter, shoot him because it's my discretion as to what I will do. But just because I have a gun and a badge, just keep your mouth shut in a situation. Anyway, that's a different kind of thing.

But because I worked in the spook world, you know, I told them to always tell me as immediately as possible if anyone they know or particularly a stranger. But even if it's someone they know, if a foreign-born, foreign national person they know starts asking questions about me. Just please let me know as soon as possible. And no, don't talk my career. don't brag about, you know, your brother's this, your son's that. Just, you know, be polite and keep it vague. But if it's a foreign national, I have to know about it, you know, as immediately as possible. I mean, yeah, that's happened where, you know, one sibling couldn't resist, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, my brother.

And one of these times it was a foreign national guy who had a past in their, and I'm like, oh. So, you know, I, and I explained to my family, I said, look, when you do this, I have to report it to, you know, and it gets so, you know, just don't talk about me, you know, around these folks. And the reason I have to do that is, you know, yeah, just in case, you know, somebody were to come here looking for, you know, a group of people or certain individuals or whatever. Now, has that happened in, you know, specifically with that in that way? No. And honestly, the, the farther you get away from your operational time, the less likely, you know. Right. It's usually, it's a concern while you're doing that work, big time. And right after you stop for a while, but the far do you get away. So I left that work now, oh, it's been 15 years now. So, you know, we're. farther I get away from it. And I don't have any deep, dark, you know, like you see in the movies where, you know, Ivan is going to come at me for, you know, kidnap my dog and my mom.

And, you know, I don't have to be like Liam Neeson, you know. I mean, we do have a particular set of skills. I mean, all joking aside, it's, if I had to, well, look, anybody, I'm not special, anybody with my experience level, okay, no matter how old you, get if something came up and I had to disappear and I still know how to do that stuff. I mean, I could I could just completely get away and where no one would be able to find me, you know, because that's just, it's easier than you think, you know, when you've been in that. And there's, like if I'm traveling outside the country, I can go to,

certain places and it's not you know i can go to certain places a certain name and that say everything and then i would be brought into sanctuary so to speak um so you know there's that and um like uh i i want to be traveling with my son and my nephew here soon you know when things settle down and open up more and stuff i they've never been anywhere i'd like to take them to South America or Europe. But I mean, I will, before we go, I'll be instructing them on, you know, you will listen to what I say about safety things. Should something happen? Your ears are open. Your mouth is shut. You'll do exactly as I say, you know, and I will always know where certain things are. Like I'll always know where the embassy or the

consulate or this office or that office is, you know, should something happen, that kind of thing. So, you know, there's there's always that. And that can be not just because, you know, there's someone after me, but it's knowing how to operate that much safer because I've operated, you know, in many places around the world. So I kind of know how to, I know how to get to safety, you know, should anything happen. And that's useful. You know, that's.

Oh, God, man. I can imagine. I mean, A, like, you're the buddy I want to travel with now, knowing you know exactly where to go if anything goes down. And B, if I don't hear from you for three months at a time, I'm going to be like, Bosley's back on the job or something happened. I'm not going to assume he's dead somewhere. But, you know, I want to say that, though, I want to say this, 90% of staying safe, you know, like that. 90% of it is just, it's all how you've traveled. It's all how you behave.

It's all how you carry yourself. It's all how your situational awareness. You know, the big thing I tell are fellow Americans who have never traveled before, I go, don't be the ugly American because you'll be a lot safer if you don't be an idiot. Don't be emblazoned with the American flag on your clothes. Oh my gosh. Don't, you know, hey, I'm from America. Don't do that because you're not at Epcot.

You're going to places. where this is this is the real world. This is where these people live. This is their home. You're not at Epcot, not at Disneyland. You know, this isn't an amusement park, you know, and just be kind of low-key, keep it nice, you know, and learn how to blend and disappear.

I've got, it's funny, for the longest time, family members would notice that I had a lot of clothes that are what we call oatmeal, you know, a lot of gray and khaki brown and tair. And that's because the work I was doing, those colors are hard in a crowd to pick up, you know, with the naked eye or someone's, you know, so you kind of disappear into a crowd a lot easier with oatmeal colored clothes. It was a few years before I got out of the habit of buying those shades of clothes, you know, now, you know, this isn't an example, but I got more colorful things now because for years,

I really wouldn't wear, unless I was wearing a suit in the office, you know, I'd have a little fun with shirt colors and ties and stuff. But for years, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wear any bright. colors because I didn't want to be seen, you know. And that's how you live. And I'm still a PI, a licensed PI, so I will take surveillance assignments as I want to, you know, as a specialty. And I still have all that stuff.

But it's all your demeanor, you know, with the traveling, 90% of staying out of trouble and staying safe is your demeanor and how you carry yourself and just your situational awareness. You know, the other 10% is that fun action stuff you might have to do. And most of the time for regular folks is just get to the embassy. Yeah, that's the number one rule. I love that, man. Hey, well, you did mention Disneyland. And in a very special bonus Patreon conversation, we're going to talk about your book, Latitude 33. So if you're watching this main interview, head on it over to Patreon if you're not a member already and we're going to talk to Walter

about Disneyland and the crazy things he's discovered about that and adventures he's had. What's up guys, Ryan Sprague here and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume, but it's not

free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content, and episodes and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too.

So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. Welcome to their terrified and tipsy. My name is Courtney and I'm Stephanie. Since we have very different feelings about scary movies, we decided to share our emotional struggles with you all. Yeah, so grab a glass of wine, your favorite cat.

couch blanket and get comfy and enjoy the ride with us. You can find their terrified and tipsy on Instagram and Twitter plus all the podcast platforms. For links, head over to tipsypod.com. Cheers! Would you mind telling us about your own personal UFO setting? I know you've kind of gone on the record now and talked about this. Is that something you're willing to share? Yeah. You know, in all fairness to the folks who are spending the money to buy the tickets to contact in the desert, which I'm a speaker of for the first time, next weekend online. My workshop goes into greater detail than I'll go in here. Because, you know,

people are buying that extra ticket and I don't want to, you know, have them do that. And then I, you know, share anything. But I'll gladly talk about, you know, the basics of it that I've already talked about, you know, publicly. For the first time of my life after, you know, as I told you for decades, I was, you know, a UFO enthusiast like all of you folks. And finally, in December of 2014, I have my UFO experience. And I have my son who lives in L.A., but then I have my adopted kid, Lillianna, and she and her boyfriend live here at the house. And he's a chef.

So, you know, he'd work at restaurants. He was working out in Palm Springs. He works at night. And he came in late one night. It was around 1130. And he came in kind of excited. and he says, come out here and look at this thing. And I'm thinking, oh, okay, he's, you know, seeing a helicopter,

a white way up in the sky. I go walking out and I look up and my jaw drops because maybe about somewhere between 50 to 70 feet right above the house is this hovering thing, which has a flat bottom and a dome top. And inside there's this illuminated rotation. It's this even rotation going around. And there's kind of this dynamic glow, but there's this even rotation. And I run back in and get my camera, you know, because we always talk about, you know,

you don't have your camera, you know, presence of mine. And the cell phone I had, that would have sucked. So I go in and get my digital camera. And I start getting this thing on video. And it stays right there. Now, he explained to me that when he got off the first, freeway, which the exits about a mile from our house, and he was turning towards our neighborhood. He saw this thing moving over the neighborhood from a basically northwestern direction from our

street. And as he's driving towards a house, he said he's seeing this thing move and he says, that's moving towards, you know, like the area where we live. And sure enough, he came down the block and he sees it there right in front of the house, or I'm sorry, right above the house. and that's when he parked and ran in and got me. So what I did was I try to have the presence of mine of an investigator, researcher. So before I comment on the object that I'm getting on camera that we're both looking at, I say, okay, describe to me visually exactly what you're seeing. And that was to ensure that he was seeing what I was seeing.

I wanted to make sure that I was not enhancing anything. And he explained exactly. he described exactly what I was seeing. You know, a flat bottom, a dome, the many things. About this time, this thing starts dumping this molten liquid substance.

It looks white hot. Just starts dumping it over one side. I mean, a profuse amount of this. And then it starts moving away. It had come from the northwest. It starts moving in a south-by-southeastern direction. And we kind of had a low cloud coverage that had moved in that night.

And it eventually, as it got, which is probably about a 16th of a mile from us, about maybe three city blocks from us, there's a like a small lake or pond in one of the gated communities. And about the time it passed over that and was dropping the stuff, then it very soon after that kind of disappeared into the cloud cover. And when we looked at the video, it was really disappointing. But so we looked at the video and I'm going to show, you know, those images at contact in the desert. And in fact, I can email them to you if you do any kind of visual posting, you know, associated with the interview.

But what I captured on video was not as clear as what we were looking at with the naked eye. It looks farther away. Now, I don't know if you recall, we're in Nova Scotia. I think the subject came up. Greg and I talked about it before about how these things seem to be exhibiting an ability to mess with our recording devices. Yeah, not only that, but like our perception, too. Yep. That's why I asked the other witness, describe to me what you're seeing, because I wanted to know if he was seeing.

Now, it would have been fascinating if we were seeing something different. I mean, think about that. but we were seeing the same thing. And that was that. Now, people say, what do you think it was? Well, I don't know exactly. And at the time, you know, I asked him again, okay, explain to me where you saw it coming from. Well, the general cardinal direction it was coming from, the Northwest, that afternoon,

I and an associate had gone out to a site northwest from our neighborhood where I have found years ago when I was learning about the Empire of the Wheel Mystery and all the weird stuff with that I had found what looks like a mandala painted on the ground

on this cement pad on this particular property. I'm reticent to identify where it's at because it's private property. And over the years, I had had some interesting experiences visiting that site. And that day, this November, December 2014 day of the night we saw the UFO, an associate and I had gone out to this thing from the Northwest and had measured every dimension of it, every line, every dimension.

And so that night, a UFO appears, and it comes. and it comes from that direction, and then it goes southeasterly from the house. And it has only been recently that I made what I think is some type of connection. But the shape of the UFO was identical to the shape of the dome top of the integratron. the Integratron, which I first visited in September of 1987, when a boss of mine where I was working was between college and the FBI, he had brought up George W. Van Tassel and was telling me about the Integratron. And he suggested that I go out and look at the thing. And that's a story that I've told before in the past where I and two friends go out to the Integratron. And we have this really weird experience with these people out there that seem to be angry that were there. And one guy, you know, after this, I became. came a surveillance specialist. I'm kind of an expert at it, you know. And looking back, I suspected, I mean, I felt it was surveillance then. I know it was surveillance, but we were followed out of Yucca Valley

until we headed back home. We were almost reached the San Bernardino Freeway and then they did a U.E and left us. So somebody didn't want us there. There was something going on. First weird experience at the Integritron. And here, years later, this thing shaped exactly like that appears over my house, glowing and dumping this stuff. And it appears at the end of the seven-year period of my investigations and research and writing about the Empire of the Wheel. And it, you know, it appeared from the direction of something that I discovered during my research. So I now, I don't think this was an extraterrestrial related experience per se. I now think definitely it has something to do with Integritron-related stuff,

and I'm presently really diving into the evidence for that, but I'll be sharing more of that at contact in the desert in my workshop. And so because there's an Integratron association, George W. Van Tassel, there is the implication of an ET thing in the background there, because we know what he claimed he experienced and where he believed he got the instructions and the inspiration for building the Integratron. So very often, like, is the case in this UFO world,

you have ETs mixed up with technology mixed up with the paranormal mixed up with, you know, so that there, I really think there's some type of fabric there that they're all threads of. I really do. Absolutely. Some sort of weird string theory going on with all that. Well, thank you, Walter.

Thank you for sharing that. Well, can I get your thoughts on this? Now, I know a lot of people are going to ask me about Richard Doty. He is, you know, the hot button issue in the UFO field has been for a long time. and I love, would you mind just kind of running me through, you know, to your knowledge, who this guy is, maybe a little about his, you know, his involvement with Benowitz. And what do you think of this guy? So many people have, like, written him off as a total disinfo agent and a horrible, horrible, evil man. But, yeah, maybe could you kind of walk us through the Benowitz affair as briefly as you can?

I don't have done it a million times. Yeah, what little I know about it. Okay. When I was a new agent with OSI and I was talking to my boss's bosses about the project I told you about the concern for our foreign agents using the American UFO community to get to our stuff, Richard Doty, for the first time I'd ever heard his name, was brought up as a cautionary tale. They said, hey, there was this agent, Agent Richard Doty, who embarrassed the Air Force and pissed off headquarters. And so you've got to be careful with this UFO world stuff. And I said, oh, absolutely. You know, my project had a definite focus that fit within national security directives.

It was aimed at foreign intelligence agents, that kind of thing. So it was very specific. It had nothing to do with messing with Americans, you know, lying to Americans about anything. I was totally looking at foreign nationals. And he was brought up as the cautionary tale. And that was the first time I'd heard about him. So, you know, over the years as in my downtime, I would be, you know, looking at UFO stuff. I would see the name pop up.

And then I learned, you know, I had learned about the, heard about the Benowitz thing. I think first I had seen a mimeograph copy of the Krista Tilton book, if you recall. That one that came out that was the spiral. bound thing. And then in 2004, I met Greg Bishop at one of David Childers's conferences in Kempton, yeah, Kenton, Illinois. And we hit it off. And at that time, around that time, I read his book. I think, yeah, it had come out in 2003 or 2001. Anyway, shortly after I met Greg, I read Project Beta. And it's like I told Greg. I said, said as far as Doty is concerned and as far as what happened with, this is just to begin with,

as far as what happened, I kind of reserve certain judgment because I nor anyone else in our community has seen the OSI file on the whole Benowitz thing. And as a former agent, somebody that's been in that business, I know better than to cast judgment. when I haven't seen that file because I guarantee you there's going to be things in there that people would find enlightening as regards OSI and Special Agent Doty and whatever it is he did or didn't do. Now that said, you know, when you read the book, the Benowitz book, there's obvious things in there that from the perspective of a former OSI agent, I looked at and thought, geez, what the, you know, what's going on? But as I read it and learned more, like most of you, you know, through Greg's book, but coming from my unique perspective of having been an insider, I came away from that. I told Greg this years ago, and I stand by this. People always want to jump to Doty because they have a face and a name. But I really came away convinced that the culprit in the Benowitz affair was the NSA. Because they were there through the.

the worst stuff that was going on that kind of drove Benowitz, you know, um, um, tragically, you know, kind of in a, a mental health situation. And I really,

knowing OSI, I can't see them doing the things that Doty often gets blamed for. Now, don't get me wrong. Doty did something, because I learned that as an agent, he did something that, you know, best off headquarters and kind of got him, as we say, on the bricks for a while.

He wasn't an agent for a while, was my understanding. He was on probation because of all this, something he did. So that had indicated to me as an insider that, okay, he definitely broke some regulation or rules. But I still, looking at what we know of that, I still see. see the NSA as the culprits. Now, as far as Doty since then, and now you could look at it one of two ways. Yes, he could still be somehow affiliated in being directed or aimed at the community for some reason. There could be multiple reasons.

be to misinformed the community, to deflect their attention off of something they want attention deflected off of, or to manage the perception of a particular piece of technology. Easier to let people think it's, you know, spaceships from another world than for them to know that it's secret, you know, military technology. Or another way of looking at Doty is, you know, by now he's been retains. tired and, you know, he's just kind of fishing around to see how he can get some UFO stardom because he's already a figure in the UFO world. So in that, now this is a hypothetical. I don't know for sure. I've had one personal communication with the man. One, that was a few

years ago. We were Facebook DMing and he was very pleasant to talk to. But, you know, so I don't know him personally, you know, but it could be that he's just telling people what they want to hear now so that he can keep some spotlight and, you know, maybe see what interest he could generate to stay on that. This UFO, as you know, you've seen it, this UFO community, this UFO media world, it does weird things to people. They, they, it's, there's some, there's a lot of folks that they get a little attention, right, during one. particular thing, and they don't want to lose that spotlight. And unfortunately, it can, it can motivate people to start spinning yarns or not being

accurate and truly objective because you get more attention when you tell the wild story or you feed the wild story. And we've seen it. I'm not going to name anybody, but we've seen people go from being really objective, you know, kind of like serious reporters to add. advocating stuff that you just know is BS. And I hate to see that. But, you know, that could be where Doty's at now. I would love to have, I'm pretty sure that for a while he did the specialty I did it, right, Pat, running double agents. That's my understanding of info that I've heard.

So, you know, he and I did very similar things as far as our duties go. I'm confident that if I were to see him like face to face and we were sitting in some diner, you know, in Loughlin or whatever, and it was just us too. I have a feeling he'd probably tell me a little bit more than he's ever told, you know, anyone in a book or on some TV show or something with the understanding that, of course, I'm not going to share that and I wouldn't. But people have to understand something about OSI because I still encounter people that think, oh, evil OSI guy, he's lying to us. He's a 99% of OSI agents, they are essentially. federal agents, FBI agents for the Air Force. And what I mean by that is, you know, your basic

felony crimes. And unfortunately, even though most of our military people are good, solid people, there's a reason there's military agents and cops. And that's because human nature, right? You're going to have people commit criminal acts. Most of your OSI agents, they're focusing on that, you know, serious fraud, sexual assaults, or they're focusing on counterterrorism. But there is one section of OSI that their specialty is, their full-time job, is involved with protecting classified Air Force technology. These are the OSI agents who know exactly what's going on at Area 51, so to speak, and all the facilities like that.

And, you know, I guarantee you, their hands are probably so full with their basic duties in doing that, that they really wouldn't have time to be doing, you know, these sinister men-and-black things. And, you know, what I find interesting is when you really dive into the men-and-black stories and, you know, you'll hear that, oh, these sinister agents went out and, you know, were really threatening or, you know, to these people. And then when you look closer, in some cases, there's been stories like this, you find out that, no, actually they weren't threatening. they were more like kind of asking us,

golly, could you please keep this secret? Because it's national security relented. And I would say that that's your, most likely, your Air Force agents. I'm not saying that there haven't been, you know, knuckle-draggers or, you know, tough-guy techniques used by somebody. I mean, I don't think all these people are lying,

but, you know, having worked and special access stuff, and seen OSI from the inside, I would say that it's not going to be your average OSI agent that would engage in shenanigans like that. Now, there could be some special unit that I am not aware of because compartmentalization, I wasn't briefed in on every single thing OSI does or did. So, you know, if I found out that I'm wrong, if I found out that I'm wrong about Doty and he did do all these nefarious things, I'd be right with all the people that say, what an a-hole, you know, and coming from me also an agent, I'd really think, wow, what an a-hole.

You don't do that to somebody. But from my perspective, I think the guy probably, you know, did a knucklehead thing or two that. got him in trouble with regulations and with the higher-ups. And the Air Force is real sensitive about being embarrassed. So when you hear somebody give you a cautionary tale and say, oh, he embarrassed the Air Force, when you understand what that means. You know, oh, God, you know, God forbid you should embarrass the Air Force. That's the culture. And there.

And so, you know, short of seeing the file and knowing all the details myself, that's where I stand on Doty. I would love to have that personal conversation with him, OSI agent to OSI agent. What I would give to be a fly on the wall for them, man. Well, let's talk about similar duties for a minute. Now, you had very strikingly similar duties as any other individual that we've come to know very well now. And that is Luis Elizondo, this guy worked in counterterrorism, counterintelligence. So I would love to get your thoughts on this guy, what he's doing, the way he presents himself.

And, you know, a lot of people talk about, yeah, like read between the lines of what he's saying. Or he's saying this. No, he's saying this. And there's so much debate about this enigmatic guy that just popped out of nowhere when this whole New York Times story broke. So I love to hear your thoughts. Seemingly. Yeah, same. Yeah, let me talk about this.

that. Do you think this was all some strategic plan? Do you think this guy really, you know, ran the program and said, they're not taking it seriously. I got to get out of here and I'm going to try to take them down, you know, not from within, but on the outside. What do you make of Luis Elizondo, having worked a lot of the stuff he did? Well, in the same world, the same general world, clearly, you know, he was attached to, you know, different, the specifics is where, you know, It's different. But yeah, so I, you know, I've been in his world. He's certainly moved through mine.

I have felt from the beginning thought. I don't, I use my brain. I don't use my feelings for this stuff. I have thought from the beginning, going back to was it, 2017, when TTSA stood themselves up and Louis Elizondo came on the scene, I said back then, and I still think now that that whole thing was a perception management operation. I think that they, and this is kind of a bummer for Tom DeLong, because say what you want about Tom DeLong, okay? But the man is sincere about his interest in UFOs.

He really is into this stuff. He really wants to get the answers. And I think they utilized him and his organization for a perception management operation. And I think that Louis Elizando and, and the other, you know, the other former CIA affiliated people that were on the TTSA, you know, board thing there that, who were presented, they were part of it. And the interesting thing is, though, I've never really demonized the guy. he's a guy doing his job if you know I don't I don't doubt I haven't seen reason to doubt what he's said about his career you know again what it's short of seeing someone's actual file you know all you can do is guess but based on experience you know it what he said about his career resonates with you know the the things I know um I think what he is doing or what has been doing is he's being a good soldier, taking instruction.

Look, you retire, you can retire from active duty or from being a staffer, as we say, for any of the agencies on Friday and then Monday morning report as a contractor. And I have long said because one of the things, once I got into the Air Force and learned about the technology and aerospace and how things really work, and this was back in the 90s when I, learned how things really work. That's when I began to realize, oh, wait a minute, the UFO secret is not with the government. The UFO secrets, the stuff that proves it all is going to be with these contract organizations because they're private corporations and they are not bound by the Constitution to reveal anything under a FOIA request. Okay. And what that does is that gives Uncle Sam plausible deniability. We don't have flying saucers. We don't have bodies. We don't have material evidence. And they can be telling the truth. They don't have it.

it because they've handed custodianship of that stuff off to a private corporation that was set up for that purpose in the first place, right? Or was set up for similar things and they just use them for that. And that's run by people in the contract world who very often were either active duty military in the world or some other type of agency personnel. And again, seriously, I'm not exaggerating, you retire from one thing on Friday and on Monday you're reporting as a contractor. Now, as a contract, you're able to do a little more monkey business where the public is concerned because you're no longer an officer of the government, right? You're a civilian.

And if you're doing something operational, you're allowed to use, you know, a phrase we'd like to say deceit and trickery, basically, you know, lie through your teeth, you know, to people if they ask you the direct question, you know, like so-and-so, are you. you now or have you ever been an employee of the such and such agency? And they can say, no, you've never been an employee of that agency when they were a contractor for the very purpose of being able to deny being an employee. But yeah, they were hired by that agency and being a contractor is an understood part of their cover. And so they are in effect an actual employee. But they can lie and say no because technically they're a contractor. And that's what I suspected of Lou

Elizondo from the get-go, from my perspective, along with people getting so excited over, you know, the, I mean, remember the balloon fiasco, the Mylar balloon thing. And then the Tick-Tac thing, I immediately thought, okay, this is our technology. And you know, everybody knows the big hubbub of the last three years. But the interesting thing is, there are some people that started, who loved Lou and then started being unhappy with him

when he, on the show in particular, went in the direction of the threat narrative. And this brings us back to why would a perception of not be done in this way? Well, here's the thing, folks. Like it or not, we don't know if there is or is not a threat from out there, first of all, a space threat.

That's another subject we'll get to. But why a perception management operation that would involve the UFO world and stuff? Well, here's the thing. Things have been tense with China, not just in the last four or five years for decades. Okay? I mean, we had things that the civilian world didn't know about, you know, alerts that popped up that. I mean, I remember the day I showed up for work as an OSI agent in L.A. in the mid-90s. And my boss said, look, we're pulling your deployment bags ready to put them on the plane.

We've got an alert. Keep it to yourself, but you might be on the plane to Korea by tonight. And that happened a couple of times while I was an agent. And that's something that wasn't reported publicly. And what that is is you're on your way to Korea, you know, North Korea, the euphemism. for it's America and China rattling their sabers at each other. This has been a concern. I mean, I remember my mentor and other superior officers saying,

we really think that the next time the world gets into it, it's going to be a big one with China. They have been concerned about this for decades, okay? And here's the thing. In the last five to ten years, China's Navy's been doing aggressive things, like they build those artificial island bases for their Navy. They're doing all sorts of,

and very recently, they're doing, you know, aggressive things, right? Expanding this, that, and the other. So why a perception management operation? Why would we want to do a perception management thing where, golly, our fighter squadrons, Navy fighter squadrons off the coast of California see this amazing thing that outmaneuvers them? Oh, my gosh, it's so shocking. Oh, we can't, oh, we can't keep up with it. Oh, it's amazing. Well, the real audience for that was the Chinese military, Intel guys. Okay. And they know it. But it's passed off as this, to the public, as this old, this UFO.

Okay. But, and this is my perspective from having been an insider in that world. What they're doing is they're saying to China, look what we got. And, oh, by the way, this was in 2004. That's how far we had developed it 16 or at the time, what, 13 years before. Uh-huh. What do you think about that? God knows how far we had developed it.

So the Chinese are going, okay, let's see what we got, you know, and it's this game. And this is my assessment of what the Tick-Tac thing. And even the, what is it, the cube in the sphere. Yeah, the gimbal or the GoFest. Yeah, one of those things. And the gimbal thing, it's, you know, that's drone technology. When you hear the whole recording, you hear the pilots with the gimbal thing, oh, man, it's, you know, it's a drone.

And then recently, there's, you know, for a couple of years, I had people angry at me, you know, because immediately I'm like, this is our technology, you're going to see. And sure enough, between the patents that we talked about and other things where, you know, the technology that has actually been being developed and the description of how it works is exactly what these guys, the pilots and the radar people describe going on. You're like, folks, come on. there's your answer. You know, that's what the TicTac is all about. But again, I remind people, just because I think that's what the Tic Tac is, as like I said earlier, I still think there's E.T stuff coming here. I still think people, you know, see E.T stuff.

Just that's not it. And before people go getting angry about that, these guys are doing their job when they do this perception management stuff. their job is to protect the country. And if they see, you know, China being aggressive and that's a potential threat, this is part of them doing what they got to do to protect the country. So I don't hold that against them. As long as they're not hurting anybody in the UFO community and the public with doing this.

I mean, you know, feelings hurt. Get over it. Because here's the thing. If the next big conflict breaks out and suddenly, you know, these tick-tech things and these square in the sphere things and these other things are the stuff that gives us the edge when, you know, we're worried about stuff coming at us in the skies, the public is all of a sudden going to be perfectly okay that they were told that was UFOs because thank you for developing this stuff if they're keeping us safe in a war. Now, that's that. Then there's the potential space threat. And a guy like Lou, with this program, one of the reasons that they would be looking at things

is because it is their job. Could there be a threat coming from space? To what degree might they know about a potential threat? Folks, I've said it before elsewhere. You know, it's kind of intellectually childish to insist and believe these stories that there's people in the community that just keep pushing it, that there's nothing threatening about the ETs. They're all benevolent. And any civilization that can develop the technology traverse the stars has conquered their bellicose, warlike nature. And it's all love, love, love.

baloney. I mean, look how much technology has been developed by the militaries of the world for military purposes throughout history. Even eventually it gets applied to civilian use, right? But look how much starts out, you know, with the military perspective in mind or developed for the military. A lot of it. And why do we assume, well, I know why people assume and think that, you know, ET civilizations would never do that. It's because there's been propaganda for decades, starting, you know, unfortunately in that more new age connection to the UFO community with that contact E era in the 50s. Now, here's an interesting thing.

I've been doing some recent studying of 1950s-era contact E literature. And, you know, I'm not the first guy to say this, but it reminds you that, gee, the 1950s, we had just, we were full on into the Cold War. right? And a lot of that UFO contacting material comes down to, oh, America's got to get rid of its, you know, humans have to get rid of their nuclear weapons. It's the nuclear weapons that are going to destroy you, blah, blah, blah. And America's got to do this. You've got to be against a nuclear weapons. I'm thinking, Cold War era, 1950s, you have these so-called ETs preaching to the public who will

listen that all nuclear weaponry, you know, we shouldn't have this. It's bad in the benevolent. And doesn't that sound like Russian intelligence propaganda? Yeah, to me it does. And we know that they were playing games with that back then. And I have no doubt we were, I mean, come on, you know, we all played the same game. We were messing with their public in, you know, whatever ways that worked. And I unfortunately think that that's where a lot of that, plus, some, genuine wishy-washiness to be found in that particular community. I'm going to get some hate for that. But, you know...

That's what you're here for. Yeah, it's been with... You're a punching bag, Walter. Yeah, it's been with us for decades, this nonsense that... And, oh, and here's what doesn't help. Here's what doesn't help what I'm trying to say. That gosh darn Warner von Braun story. Now, I met Carol Rosen once at the 2014 SSP conference in San Mateo.

That's an intelligent, reasonable woman. I don't think she's lying about that story about what Warner von Braun told her. I think people are kind of misinterpreting the finer details of it, and they're hanging, they're putting all their eggs in that basket. And that is the thing where Werner von Braun said there would be, this was in the effort for the globalist to control, you know, the human population. They would use these five steps and, you know, there would be a cold war and then there would be terrorism, then there would be rogue nations, and then there would be asteroids and, you know, asteroids,

and then they would use the alien threat, you know, and it's all a lie. Well, okay, he didn't say that there... were no alien threats or, you know, that they didn't consider that there were alien threats. He said they would use that to get the public to buy off on huge expenditures by the military industrial complex, which we have a reason to be concerned about those guys. And I'm an Air Force officer. And we got reason to be concerned about that. I mean, Eisenhower told us that, right?

We've known this for a long time. But what he was saying is, you know, that topic would be used to do these other nefarious things. I don't recall him ever emphasizing because there are no ETs that are any threat. He never said that. And you know what? Even with what he said, he's a human being. He's fallible. This might have been his read on something.

Now, yeah, I mean, he was Werner von Braun, right? He was in the know. He was, you know, had reason to know more than a lot of us. But it doesn't mean that what he said, you know, is actually the gospel reality. The intriguing part is, is that all the steps he said were going to happen. Have happened, you know, we had the period of terrorism. We had, you know, this and it's, it's kind of spooky. So my point is that I think both are true. I think what von Braun was time. telling us as something clearly. I mean, he's already four out of five, right? There's some truth there. But I think that has to do with something nefarious that certain bad players associated with military industrial complex are carrying out and planning to do. But I think at the same time, I think that they're very naturally saying, we got to be prepared for a threat from space should it come, or they're aware of a potential threat on its way here. Now, I'm not the only guy who thinks that Joseph Farrell thinks this as well.

But I think a very practical position is to assume that they're going to be, quote, unquote, as human as we are, in the respect that you're going to have civilizations that really we're going to get along with and mean us no harm, they mean us goodwill. You're going to have those that, you're going to have those that, you know, are hell bent on conquest. I mean, come on, look at, we know from our own history,

just a few centuries ago in the big scope of time, you know, we would go to new lands, we'd invade, we'd conquer, we'd do this. I mean, it's part of our history. This nonsense that people say that, oh, we're the only ones in the universe like that. I just like, oh, please grow up. this is really intellectually childish to think this.

And I hate to think that wake up call is going to come for these people when, you know, God forbid the stuff appears in the sky and just starts, you know, and that could happen. And people say, oh, Bosley's part of the part of the thing that Von Braun's talking about. He's an unwitting, you know, useful idiot. And like, oh, gosh, you guys, I have my concerns about our military. industrial complex as much as any of you. And, you know, so, but I just think it's more practical. And that might have something to do with what's being developed and why?

Because as others have said before me, they might be trying as fast as they can to replicate some technology they're aware of, to try to be up to speed upon the arrival of something that someone that could be on their way. I don't know. Now we're into hypothetical land here, but I try to be, you know, realistic with the hypotheticals. And we at least have to be prepared.

Because at some point, particularly as we venture out in the space more, at some point, folks, if we're going to encounter these advanced civilizations, we are going to encounter one that is not good, that means us harm, that there's going to be belligerents and they're, could be conflict with. So, just, you know. And I think that to the extent that a guy like Lou Elizondo goes there with, you know, his documentaries and stuff, I think that's what he's trying to,

maybe they are trying to get that idea out there so that people, you know, because they know it's inevitable, but then there's the von Braun story. Could it be just? And that's what causes the problem. as I said a few minutes ago. The von Braun thing really, it makes it hard for people, and I understand that it makes it hard

for the average person to know what to believe. And I blame human political nature, centuries of that, for putting people in that position, not knowing what to believe anymore. Thank you, Machiavelli.

Good point, good point, man. Well, thank you. Thank you for giving us your thoughts on that. I know a lot of people were wondering that. And speaking of that, Walter, I'm going to move to some listener questions. And our first one comes from the UFOs of Oz, which is a brand new podcast that I hope everyone will go subscribe to. If you ever wanted to hear about Australian UFO cases, this is the podcast for you. So a little shameless plug for our friends over there at the UFOs of They ask, Walter, can you speculate or discuss why the Air Force has been so conspicuously quiet about the UAP phenomenon compared to the Navy?

Why are we not hearing anything from the Air Force with all of this, man? It's kind of weird if you ask me. But demystify that for us, if you may. From my perspective, it tells me that it's because it's a secret technology program that, the Air Force, it's either an Air Force technology program or there at the forefront of some joint task force program developing this. But yeah, with the Air Force being this quiet, I suspect that it's because it's, in our case, with these sightings here in the U.S. that it's U.S. Air Force Tech. And that's, I mean, there is part of the story with the

Tick-Tac that it was Air Force agents or Intel type. It was Air Force personnel who showed up on the ship and took the data drives, right? That's what we hear. That's what we were told, yeah. So why would Air Force guys be showing up on a naval vessel? And, you know, the commander of that vessel, that naval captain, yeah, yeah, yeah, let them take this. Come on. That's because he's been briefed in on what it, you know, what's going on. And, you know, the Air Force guys are here to get the data.

Yeah, that's, I think it's, to me, it's simple. It's because it's at force attack. And that should have been a first, the silence of the Air Force should have been the first clue bird for folks. But, you know, that's just. what I think. Carol on Facebook asks, why do, why do you think the Pentagon and DOD is basically okay with all these leaked and released videos that we've been seeing, that George Knapp, Jeremy Corbell, the debrief media site? They've all been given little, little kind of breadcrumbs of what's going on within the Pentagon with this task force. Why do you think that is that these things are being leaked

right before this report is supposed to come out? It's controlled. It's controlled. of leaks. It's, they're on top of it. They know what they're giving. I think some of those individuals are exaggerating, you know, what you're seeing in those things and they're,

because they're playing to their audience. You know, they're basically being carnival barkers, you know, step right up, look at this thing. And it's like, no, that's not what it is. But they've got a willing enough audience to listen to their spin.

So they're going to keep doing it. But I think the Pentagon and whatever DOD program is behind these releases, this is a calculated thing. And, you know, whether it's for a defense-related DOD operation aimed at, you know, communicating something to the Chinese military or otherwise, I think there's more, it's much more of a controlled thing going on than people realize. Gotcha. All right. Well, irrelevant appellation, that's quite a name, on Reddit, asks, what relationship does the breakaway civilization have with the imminent disclosure that we're going to get?

Has it been there all along? And if so, is the illusion of an ET existence just a smokescreen to a, an obscure, larger, more unsettling truth. That is a long-winded question, but yeah, I know you're the guy to turn to do with breakaway civilizations, Walter. Yeah, what do you make of it? Well, first of all, thanks for the question, because this gives me an opportunity. I have changed my use of the term.

I've gone away from breakaway civilization to breakaway organization. Because the word civilization, when you think about it, implies in most people's minds, something much more vast and huge. And I see it more as there are breakaway groups. I definitely, so it's just a change in terminology, I think, to really bring a definition into what we're actually talking about here. But I believe in the same essential concept that there are breakaway groups. Now, I think to some degree, these breakaway groups, whoever, whatever they are, wherever they

have of course contributed to the technology development associated with the military industrial complex. And I mean that with the small MIC, meaning that actual physical structure that any nation needs to produce their warfighting capability. And within that complex, there's your nefarious group that is the evil military industrial complex, so to speak. Now, as far as their role in what's going on or what's going to happen, remember, most of my

research has been trying to apply the to find, dig out, and suggest the historical threads leading up to the 20th century, right? So I admit, I've admitted this before, I don't

know how to explain the status or state of the breakaway organization in, you know, after World War II and in our times because I've focused more on the developmental aspects. But my guess is they have been involved with developing whatever our advanced space technology is. and yes, the ET issue certainly can and has, you know, been used as a screen, a smoke screen for things that are, you know, human technology. Of course, that makes sense to me. I understand why they would do that. It does confuse things, you know, for us out here in the public, trying to figure out what's going on. Who do we trust? What do we believe? but yeah that's where I see the breakaways now I think the German breakaway that I've written about that Charles Del Shal told us was called NIMSA as I have written I think NIMSA doesn't exist as such I think NIMSA got absorbed into the Nazi machine I think what the remnants of NIMSA that so-called NIMS that exists today would would actually be the in this Nazi machine

international that Joseph Farrell and others talk about and write about. So, therefore, was the, what I proposed as an American breakaway that what I call the 1903. Did they exist beyond the World War II era? Did they even exist? Because where were they? We can, we can look at the Nazi war machine and say, you know, I can see where NIMSA was, you know, we can see where NIMSA went from the 19th century into the 20th, if we want to look at them as, you know, the Nazi war machine and the Nazi international, but where the heck was this American group that I suspect stood up in the late 1890s and into the early 1900s because, you know, we had two world wars and, you know, we didn't see any sign of them. So that's been the reason for me to say, well,

you know, I could be wrong. Maybe they tried one thing and it didn't work out and they just kind of disbanded. I don't know. But they certainly disappeared. Except for this, I don't want to call it a myth, but it's been presented in fiction and it nags at people, and it really is the model for the idea of a breakaway organization, you've got the Einrand problem. And that is the John Galtz theme. Was perhaps Rand writing about a real organization that she had heard murmurings of? since Rand did a group of people get the idea, you know, say, hey, this John Galtz, Gulch, let's just walk away and do our own thing privately. This is a good idea. Has someone been motivated or inspired by Ein Rand? There seems to be hints and traces of some type of breakaway style culture that moves at the periphery or sometimes in.

Our military industrial complex, our technological development community, that kind of thing. And I don't know. I see, I have seen where there's reasons to suspect that there's something like that. There is some group that has their members in these various agencies and organizations. It's similar to what I told you about my uncle's mentorship of me, whether I worked for the FBI, whether I was in the Air Force, whether I was with the organization doing C.E. or what have you, I was always reporting into him. Okay. And you see me going to different agencies, but if you look at what I was doing specifically,

it was essentially the same exact skill set, the same exact kind of work. But I was moving in the different organizations. And this is how, you know, this kind of breakaway independent organization might function. They might have their people in, various organizations, you know, military technological development or private aerospace development or NASA or what have you. And they could be exhibiting or exerting their influence in that way so that it's kind of like a, a, what do they, I use this term, you know, their own little invisible college of experts who are, you know, going in and putting their little ripples in the ponds,

the various ripples in the ponds to move us in a particular direction that they have envisioned. That could be what the nature of the breakaway is now. I don't see some breakaway organization with a fleet of, you know, like Starship Enterprises and having, you know, cities on other worlds. I just, I don't see that. Yeah. You know, it's just like that comic version of the Secret Space program that unfortunately derailed legitimate secret space program research, you know, no, that does not exist.

There is no time-traveling special ops force that goes to Mars and fights bugs. With Obama, nonetheless, Walter, remember that. Oh, that's right. And with Obama. Yeah, he went to Mars when he was a kid and told that he would be president and this guy and the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all of that nonsense. For those who don't know who we're talking about, I don't even want to mention them because... Yeah, you've got to be careful with that guy.

Yeah. That gives them some free marketing. So don't go to that. You don't want to do that. But yeah, avoid all that nonsense. But anyway, that's going back to what I was saying. I think right now I'm thinking that that might be the nature of the breakaway is kind of an influence organization. Interesting.

I'm glad you brought up the term invisible. college because yeah it's very possible you know they're either mining information or they're putting their own influence into or both you know or both yeah that's so true um well here's a good one uh with your air force experience com diver on twitter asks to your knowledge walter has anyone in the air force ever been injured by a uap in the line of duty you ever come across anything in your research or or or people you've spoken to who've been injured by a phenomenon? Well, specifically by UAPs, which I think are, you know, military objects and stuff, I don't know, you know, because that really emerged after I got out.

And my duties didn't have anything to do directly with anything like that, that, you know, whatever it was as it existed in the 90s. So I'm not aware of that. Now, you know, we have heard these cases of folks that, you know, have received the radiation burns after having, you know, a UFO experience in civilian cases. So, and Michael Schrat has done some excellent recent, he's got a book out. It's on Kindle. And he goes into that. And he talks about two particular cases, which he shows you the reasons why it's pretty obvious. that it's, people were exposed to technology and this was literally radiation.

Now, that said, if civilians got exposed to it in, you know, kind of a, uh-oh, somebody was driving by while we were out and had problems and had to land, whatever, I'm sure that it has happened that the personnel working with this stuff have encountered, you know, the side effects, which brings me to, and this might be kind of a thin connection, but it's the example that comes to mind. Rendlesham Forrest, I don't think that was an E.T. event at all. I think that's exactly what others have said it was, that it was a Psiop-related thing.

And I think that, you know, personnel that were close to the thing or whatever that had some type of side effects, you know, there's an example of how. military personnel could encounter the technology and be injured or affected in some way by it. It would be during some type of, you know, sci-op thing like that where they want to get people's reactions, the honest reaction to military personnel. And so, you know, you could have injuries that way if they got too close to some type of exhaust, you know, or intake thing. or if these things are using exotic technology,

there is going to be a radiation issue depending upon what they're doing and people could get hurt. And accidents happen in the military all the time when you're doing function tests and operational tests and things like that. So long way around the barn to say, I'm not personally aware,

but I'm sure it's happened. Gotcha. All right, this, Last one here. Actually, two more. Sorry. Sorry, Walter. Luis from the Unidentified Celebrity Review asks, given your FBI background, what kind of information do you expect the FBI will contribute to the upcoming UAP report, if any? Would they, yeah, be any different than anyone else providing information? I think the FBI has probably, within the context of this report that's coming out, I think the FBI has, probably already released what they have on that unless there were recent sightings and recent years that people, for whatever reason, reported to the FBI and the agents go out and they take the report and they turn it in and then somebody up the line says, oh, you got to remember, there's

always an FBI agent, one or two at least, that are read in on a lot of military programs. maybe not all the specifics, but they're read in where, for instance, when I was a Russian linguist for the Bureau, and we were, I had to do what's called a special. That's what the Bureau calls a TDI. And I had to do a special out in Las Vegas. And I was at Mercury, which is adjacent to Area 51. And the agent that, you know, who this, we had the Russians wiretapped and we were listening to them. And the agent, we, we, we, we, we, we, we. We, we. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We. We were doing this for, the unseen agent, okay, that was part of facilitating all this. He happened to be the FBI, the one FBI, single FBI agent in the Las Vegas office who was briefed in on the basics of Area 51 and had access, free access coming and going to the basic base. That doesn't mean he could walk into every hangar, but he could walk into hangers. And he and I had a conversation, and he was honest. He said, I'd love to be able to take you out there. He goes, you know, you you guys have Tiaz in clearance.

He goes, but your clearance ain't high enough to go out there. My clearance at the time, as a Russian linguist. And he says, in fact, I'm the only one from the bureau in my office that is allowed to go there. And he says, and I'm only allowed to talk to somebody at headquarters about that, you know, that kind of thing. So that said, there are FBI personnel. And if somebody saw something recently that involves the UAP stuff and they happen to report it to the FBI instead of the military, the FBI agents would take that report and it would go up the line and this is where this briefed in FBI personnel I'm talking about would be and they'd go, oh, I know what this is and

I know who this has to go to. And they would, you know, shoot off a copy of it, a communication to that particular DOD organization or the Pentagon, whatever office in the Pentagon. I'm sure that Louis Alizondo has probably seen whatever FBI reports were coming through the, you, UAP program, ATIP program, whatever it was. I'm sure he saw whatever FBI reports related to this that there were, because that's kind of, you know, to my best guess, would be, you know, an organization, an outfit that would get those kinds of things. But I don't think, I really think this Pentagon report is going to be a lot of nothing.

I think the New York Times, that first headline before they changed it later that day, you know, the, oh, but we can't rule up. Aliens, I think their first headline was the brutal truth. There's nothing extraterrestrial going on here. And don't get me wrong. I'm on our side. Do I think that the DOD gamed this? Of course they did. They look at the specific wording of what Congress tells them to do. And they're like, okay, that's what they said it's got to be. That's all it's going to be. There is no spirit of it. Well, they only specified UAPs, but we're going to. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to. We're going to give everybody the truth about ETs. No, they're not going to do that. They're going to say, oh, no, this is what you asked for. This is what we're giving you. Of course they're gaming us. And that leads to, I'll just comment on this. This is a popular thing that goes around. And I've been hearing it a lot lately. Oh, they don't know anything about that. What it is is they don't know about the aliens. They don't know anything. They're just, I'm like, oh, people,

you know, please, come on. They've been looking at this stuff for almost a century now. I hope they would have some idea. Yeah. Come on. They're not that ignorant. But yeah, I think they're, and that's why the report's going to be a big disappointment.

There's going to be people, though, in the community, they're going to spin it, you know, however they want to, to keep the excitement going, and they're, you know,

they're going to sound really convincing, but, you know, I don't think there's going to be anything to it. But as I say, I could be wrong, and it would be totally cool to be wrong. If it turned out to be some type of ET disclosure, it's a win-win, you know.

Right. That would be cool, too. I'd be glad to say, wow, I was wrong about that. Look how cool this is. But I really don't think that's going to happen. Hey, if this was the one time Walter Bosley was wrong, it would probably be the best time. Yeah, exactly, right? It won't embarrass me, is my point. I'll be, that would be the coolest thing to be wrong about. All right. Awesome. All right. Our last listener question, Walter.

Okay. Dave from Shadows of Your Mind magazine, he asks, do you see any similarities between the Arrow Sonora Club of the late 19th century in Lockheed Skunkgorks with regards to theoretical aeronautic innovation? I certainly think that stuff that's been developed, you know, through the 20th century and in today has a technological ancestral link

going back to the 19th century and things that were being done by groups like the Sonora Arrow Club. Most people that are familiar with my stuff know that until demonstrated otherwise, I do not see Charles Delshow as some type of outsider artist and all that. I think Del Shal was telling the truth.

Until demonstrated otherwise to me, I think he was telling the truth about what he saw. So therefore, I have pulled threads and I think there is something to it. So obviously, if they were doing this, if my hypothesis is correct, where we had the Sonora Aeroglub, messing around, we're rudimentary, Model T level, proof of concept, anti-gravity, so to speak, technology, And that did indeed lead to the 1890s airship mystery with more technically advanced versions of that technology. Then that thread had to go somewhere. And the Germans obviously weren't the only ones doing it.

Remember, the Sonora Aeroclub rejected the advances of the Prussian organization. You know, the Sonora Aeroclub, Del Chau tells us they didn't like NIMS's representatives coming to them. And they kind of liked, you know, being Californians, being Americans, that kind of thing. So, you know, in the 1890s airship mystery, there's no reason to suspect that that was the German NIMSA. That was Americans and other organizations allied with these Americans. Because there were some East Indian or East Asian individuals in that airship mystery mix. and that's really interesting. But that thread had to go somewhere.

Whatever they learned, whatever they were developing, whatever they learned, had to go somewhere. And I'm convinced that it was involved with or led to people like, well, what Tesla was doing, but also what T-Towns and Brown was doing. And all of that research into anti-gravity stuff that suddenly went quiet in the 50s. suddenly just disappeared. I think that is the technological descendant of what was going on in the 19th century. Sorry, folks. It's not from a crash saucer that was re-engineered by the Nazis.

I don't buy that. But it's just as exciting when you look at the possibility that human beings were messing around with what we would call exotic technologies in an era, you know, where we never imagine they'd be doing that. So, yeah. It's kind of interesting. It is. It's fascinating. Yeah. All right.

Well, here's kind of connects to that last question here, Walter. Can you tell us about what you're doing at Contact in the Desert? I know you're diving into Roswell Territory and a lot of other things connected to that. And yeah, give it to us. What are you doing at Contact in the Desert? the desert. Yeah, I'm excited. This is my first time being a speaker there. I've attended a couple of times, you know, signing books at tables, that kind of thing. And I, you know, a mutual friend introduced me to the folks that run it. They liked, they looked at a couple of my books. And I liked, when they asked me

if I wanted to speak, I like what they told me about what they're going for. You know, there's some folks that say, oh, contact in the desert. It's all this goofy stuff. And, and no, you know, They are trying, you know, and particularly with this one, to get, you know, different kinds of speakers, to get different ideas and hypotheses out there. They're trying to focus even more on the people who do the historical and technical research. So I think people that have a view of the event might come away if they take a look at who's speaking and what they're talking about. I mean, there's a mix of it all, okay, and you can pick and choose what you want. to ignore and stuff. But I was really impressed with, and I appreciated that they considered me to be one of those who, you know, it's like a researcher, someone who's really trying to get the truth.

So I said, yeah, you know what? I'll put my money where my mouth is. If that's, you know, the direction they're going and that's what I do, absolutely, I'll speak at the event. So the books that they liked were my book's origin, the 19th century emergence of the 20th century breakaway civilizations, back when I still used the civilization term. which offers info about some of my 19th century stuff that I was just mentioning in answer to the other question. And my other book, Shimmering Light, in which I lay out in that book, what I think the Roswell incident really was. And that is the focus of my main presentation at Contact in the Desert this year is I'm to the biggest audience I've ever spoken to, live stream. so it's going to have global reach,

I'm going to be laying out my alternative to the ET hypothesis. I don't think Roswell was an ET event. But I'll be laying that out my main presentation, and then I'll be doing a workshop in which I get into my UFO siting, and I share data and information that I've never shared publicly, and because of very recent research discoveries, I'll have even more to add to that in the discussion in the workshop. I really wanted to make people, these things aren't cheap to attend and not inexpensive.

And I really want to give people something special. So that's why the folks who get the workshop ticket are going to hear details that I've never shared publicly, not in any book or any talk. And I'm going to be on a panel. I'm going to be on one of the, a disclosure panel that I believe is moderated by Steve Bassett. And there's several of the people. And I've been asked to participate in that. So I'm looking forward to it.

Cool. It should be a lot of fun. All right. Last question for you, Walter. Okay. Now, it's no, I guess, it's no secret that the UFO community or, you know, UFO Twitter, whatever you want to call all of these people who talk about it. this stuff has grown exponentially in the last couple years. It's like, you know, as the topic becomes more mainstream, more people start looking into stuff going online. And it just, it's exploded.

So there's people from all over the world, all different generations interested in this topic right now. So I want to ask you, what advice would you give people just getting into this topic? what would you tell them to expect? What should they look into? What should they stay away from? Yeah, give us that fatherly advice that we so great. Well, I would say post-cancer Walter puts it differently than pre-cancer Walter. And that is, believe me, I'm an honest guy.

I can be direct. I can, you know, my sarcasm will, you know, whatever. will come through because sometimes you naturally got to express that. But, but particularly the more experience you have with the UFO Twitter and things these days, my first thing is, remember to be nice. Try to avoid those combative types of threads and conversations that are going on. Seek out the people that talk about UFO cases, okay? Avoid the UFO enthusiasts that are talking about everything but UFOs, like the politics and this, that, and the other. Seek out the people that are talking about the UFO cases, that are talking about the UFO hypotheses.

The people that are on point, the people that are being civil, having a civil discussion, not engaging in the smack talk, because, you know, this more focused conversation, it is going on out there. You just got to kind of wade through the bombastic nature of a lot of this. I would like to see a lot of that just kind of calm down and go away because it's not doing a service to the community. It's not doing a service to UFO research to be focused. on, you know, the demographics of the UFO community, for example. If people are being civil and polite with each other, there's not going to be a demographics

problem, you know, to begin with, because it doesn't matter what or who somebody is. If they're interested in UFOs, especially if they've been doing some good research and have some good data to contribute. nobody interested in UFOs really cares about, you know, these side issues. And, you know, when you talk about UFO Twitter, unfortunately, somebody that's new to that, they're going to see a lot of this circus side show bombastic stuff going on. And all I'm saying is seek out the people who stay on point and talk about the UFO cases, because that's really why you're there. You know, that's why we're here is, you know, we want to know what's going on.

Yeah, for the last three years, you'd think there was only one case, and that's the Tic Tac. No, there's stuff going on. I mean, the stuff you've written about, and like your presentation in Nova Scotia, I mean, I had only vaguely heard about the school in Africa, right? Oh, yeah, the Ruiz Zimbabwe case, yeah. That's, wow. I mean, that was the most detail I'd ever heard on that. like, oh, this, now this is the kind of thing, you know, that I'm talking about. Dig out those things. I would say look for Michael Schratz stuff.

Look for Ryan's, you know, books and in conversations. But, yeah, just try to, you know, find that civil path. It is out there. And you'll learn a lot. You'll learn a lot. And just in our, in this day of social media, just, you know, keep your focus and you'll be okay. But shun the loud noises. Yeah, I love that, man. I love it.

That's some great advice. I agree with everything you said. Well, it's very clear that the sun is going down here in New York City right now. Oh, boy. I look like a vampire in the dark right now. So I think that's it, man. We're going to call it a night. This was a marathon, but thank you.

I enjoyed it. Sure. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your life with us and your career. Man, I know there are many conversations to still be had with you, my man. So I can't wait to see you at one of these events soon. And last question, where can we find everything you're up to? Okay.

My books are not available at Amazon. Amazon's not good to small press publishers, so I don't sell on Amazon folks. but my books are available, print on demand, very good quality at lulu.com. Okay, so lulul.u.com, that's where my books are. They got to print them and then they got to ship them to you, but it's worth the weight, good prices. I also have a YouTube channel, the Walter Bosley Channel, and I do live stream every Sunday night 530 to 7 p.m. Pacific Standard Time at the Walter Bosley channel at YouTube.

and I'm on Instagram and Facebook. And I just recently got introduced to TikTok, and my son and nephew are laughing at me because I'm seeing all this hilariously funny stuff and just cracking up, and they're like, oh, dad's discovered TikTok. Because there's some funny stuff on there. People are hilarious on TikTok, TikTok.

But, yeah, so there we go. Awesome, man. Well, once again, Walter, Thank you so much for joining us on Somewhere in the Skies. Thank you for asking me, Ryan. I look forward to doing this again. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.