Somewhere in the Skies - Estimate of the Situation

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

On episode 287 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we speak to Tom Orzechowski and John Zoitos, creators and writers of the upcoming comic book series, "Estimate of the Situation". This new series, covering the true history of the U.S. Government's first attempts at investigating UFOs (previous to Project Blue Book) is based on declassified documents and extensive historical research. It is an exploration into the beginning of the UFO phenomenon and the implications to its levels of secrecy. We'll discuss how the comic book came to be, what to expect, and how the past inevitably always comes back to haunt us, even when it comes to UFOs.   Buy the first issue of "Estimate of the Situation": https://www.blacktielabs.nyc/ View art from "Estimate of the Situation" on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/estimateofthesituation/  Ryan is now on Cameo! Book your video today at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Buy Somewhere in the Skies coffee! Use promo code: SOMEWHERESKIES10 to get 10% off your order: https://bit.ly/3rmXuap Order Ryan’s book in paperback, ebook, or audiobook: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at: https://bit.ly/3rJpbd7 Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2022 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, Ryan here. The Summer in the Sky's podcast is a labor of love every week. And with that comes many different costs to keep the show running. That's where our Patreon campaign comes in. You give what you think the show is worth. There's different rewards available all the time, including shoutouts on the show, early editions of main episodes,

bonus episodes and content, and very soon monthly patron hangouts, where we sit back and chat all things UFOs. So I hope you'll consider becoming a Patreon subscriber today. To learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you for your support and keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here from Somewhere in the Skies.

Coming to you live from Scotland. I'm actually in a hotel because I don't have Wi-Fi yet in my new apartment in Scotland. So you're getting this nice brick background. Don't get used to it. It's just for tonight. This is a special occasion. I needed the best Wi-Fi I could get to make sure that this interview went off without a hitch. And I'm really excited to talk to these guys about their new project, estimate of the situation.

There's a history to this project. I have been talking and discussing it with Tom, one of the creators of Estimate of the situation, for over a year now. I remember very early in the creative stages of this comic book series, which we're going to be talking about tonight, him sending me ideas and images about what this comic book was going to be. And the minute I saw what these guys were doing, I was all in. And it's here.

It is finally here. So we're going to get the breakdown of what the comic is, how it came to be. And yeah, just hear about the creative and research process. process of estimate of the situation. So without further ado, let's bring them in. We have Tom Orzicowski and John Zootos, the writers and creators of estimate of the situation. Gentlemen, welcome to somewhere in the skies. What's up, man? Thank you, man. Yeah, very excited to be here. This is our first one.

You know, we've just been burning the midnight candle. And, you know, like, we're finally excited to actually talk about it for a second, you know, and you got a chance to read it. So that's even better. Yes. Now, you guys were kind enough to send me an advanced copy of the first issue of the comic. And yeah, it blew me away.

And, you know, again, here it's somewhere in the skies, we support any creatives that get themselves entangled into this weird UFO community and world that we live in every day. And I know you guys are feeling that now.

You know, I know this isn't the first or last show you're going to be on talking about this. But I will actually want to start with Comic-Con. You guys recently attended New York Comic-Con, and you had a booth there and everything to promote the comics. So, yeah,

let's start there. What was it like going to New York Comic-Con and actually like being able to show your work there? I can't even imagine. Oh, man. Well, it, I mean, it was fun. Don't get me wrong. But we actually submitted an application way back in the summer, and we never heard from anybody.

right? So we were like, okay, well, we know the barrier of entry is pretty high, so we're like, okay, we didn't get in, et cetera, et cetera. Then two weeks prior to Comic Con actually, like, you know, happening, we got an email saying like, hey, we have a booth available. Do you guys still want it? You know, and so we're just like, I remember asking John, like, should we do this? Like, this is really the last minute. We didn't even have the first issue finished yet. You know what mean like we're like what the hell do we do um then we just said yes and we took it and uh we worked literally day and night to get the first issue out with our artists we were editing you know until like six in the morning um then like doing the same thing the next day for days and then also setting up

the booth like getting the posters and all that stuff and we had no idea what to expect really um but it was fun like once we got there once we got settled i got to say like the uh you know we're we're nobody basically, new kids on the block. But the reception we got was really cool. You know, people who were interested in this topic, like, came over and asked us what this was about. And as soon as we told them, you know, like that it's based on declassified documents, et cetera, et cetera, you know, they were in, right?

But like what's even more interesting, they were in, they would bought the copy, then they would talk to us about like chemtrails for 40 minutes or their experience or something like that, you know, like a vast majority of things. So it was really interesting communicating with people that way. And it showed us like, yeah, there's, you know, not just a market for this, but there's people hungry for something like this. Because, like, you know, every other UFO story is basically,

like, an Independence Day invasion movie, you know, it just, it's, it's cheap for lack of a better word. And seeing enthusiasm there was pretty cool. And, of course, Comic-Con is Comic-Con, man. Like, we, it was massive. We ended up just buying a bunch of stuff that we didn't need, you know, like, every time we'd go to the bathroom, and we'd come back with like a like a $40 poster or something where it's like oh my gosh

spending any profit you might have made yeah that sounds like comic con yeah yeah no uh john what was your experience like yeah i mean it was great i mean i got to say the way tom was able to pull everything together was quite amazing i mean literally we were editing every day i mean i'm at work sending him dialogue edits and he's sending me back notes and we're going back and forth like through WhatsApp and text. So it really was like trial by fire. Like that setup right there with

he went to Staples, got the big tablecloth, put it over, got the posters. You know, we had to, I did not think we were going to show up in Comic-com with a printed issue. Because the artist also had to bring back panels. So I felt we were going to come with like a business card and pamphlets and

you know, maybe an email list. It's like, we'll let you know when it comes out. Because we, you know, we understood that it was a great opportunity to get that booth also because we can get it next year as well. You kind of hold it in contracts. We're like, you know what, it's worth it anyway. But really the biggest part of it, the best part of it, the best part was the momentum it gave us and the drive it gave us to actually finish the issue. You know, the issue we have, which you got, you know, black and white. But black and white actually looks great.

So it's almost like black and white. limited edition, I guess. But yeah, it was a blast. I mean, and really inspiring just being around and seeing all the other creator-owned work too. Like it actually made me feel, and I'm sure Tom as well, like, oh, we're actually in this now. Like, we're actually creators.

It's like he said, we're nobody's. We're just starting now. Yeah, it's real. Well, right. I can only imagine that surreal moment of just sitting there and having someone hold something, you know, that you'd been working on, you know, as a author or even a podcaster. Like when people reach out to me and say,

hey, I listen to your show. You don't think about that as someone who is just cranking this stuff out. Like, it's a job for you. And, you know, you're just worried about getting out the next show and the next show. You don't stop to think, wow, people are actually reading my work. They're actually listening to the show. And those are truly the moments where you're like, yeah, this is like, this is real. This is happening.

And, you know, I was watching your guys social media and seeing all the people holding the, you know, the first issue. And that had to feel pretty awesome. Even saw Dan Zetterstrom, our mutual colleague here in the UK, UFO researcher with one of the copies who traveled all the way from England to come over there and meet you guys and do some other stuff over there. But that must have been pretty cool. Like, you know, having actual UFO researchers show up to the booth and be like, yep. stamp of approval. Yep, it's good. Yeah, no, he came by.

It was pretty cool. He came by. There was an experiencer, a talk with Gary Nolan and a bunch of others. So, like, you know, it was happening during the same time as Comic Con on Saturday. I got to meet everybody afterwards, like, Dan, Jay, Tupa, a bunch of others. So, like, that was, like, really, really fun. It was really, really interesting, you know. And I got to say, too, like, I got a shout out, you know, Dary Fletcher, who, those posters you see in our cover art,

he's the one that did it. And like this guy is just amazing. You know, like I found him on UFO Twitter and he's been such an integral part of the project since. You know, like I, he did the cover that you're seeing right now

on the left side, the red one and like all the other, you know, the military installation, things like that. And yeah, I mean, it was such a,

it was a show stopper because people would come by and like that's the first thing they would see and that's why they would come to the booth and talk to us. And, you know, again, this just proves that like this community runs deep

and there's a lot of talent here. and a lot of people who are passionate about this, you know? And Derry is just one of those people that has, like, come through every single time and even, like, queued me up, like, hey, do you need anything for me? I have X, Y, Z days off. I'm like, yeah, like, give me a second when you figure out what I need, even if I didn't need anything, you know, just because he's so talented. So, again, this community is just one of those things that, like, it's, it does,

it's a very niche community. And it's, you know, there's a, there's personalities within the community, but overall everyone's in there for the same reason. They are passionate about this subject, and they do want to see it done justice one way. In other words, advocating for disclosure, you know, completing historical record or representation in media that isn't just like, you know,

spooky X-Files music with like, you know, bug monsters or something like that. Yeah. Right. And I think that's what, and we'll definitely discuss kind of the theme in the tone of the comic, but yeah, you guys aren't going with a little green men, at least not yet. The story you're telling is very, it's a side of euphology that a lot of people don't cover.

And that's what I found most interesting about it, is this idea of, you know, how this topic can be used in certain ways and for certain motives within the U.S. government and intelligence agencies. But I'm getting ahead of myself. John, I know kind of Tom's origin story, but I'd love to know, like, what got you, and Tom, I want to know this too from you. What got you guys interested in UFOs to begin with? What's kind of your initiation into this crazy weird world of UFOs? Experiences or just growing up with the X-Files? I'd love to hear each of your origin stories. John, let's start with you.

Yeah, I mean, what's interesting, you know, I don't, I would, was never big into the UFOs or UFO theory. It was really Tom that came to me with I mean, we would have discussions over it over the years because we love to have our conspiracy discussions. We met in acting school and became good friends. We've known each other what, Tom, like eight years now. Yeah. Yeah. And so he came to me with this project idea, which I thought was fascinating right off the bat. So I came on board that way, but really I was an outsider coming in. really looking at it with fresh eyes. I didn't know the specifics,

certainly not the specifics of the UFO sightings throughout the 40s. I knew basically about Kenneth Arnold. That was about it. In the way Kenneth Arnold, you know, is sort of this pop culture figure. And maybe a little more than that, you know, maybe a little more than your average layman.

But for the most part, I came in through Tom, and it was really through doing the research for this project that I became really fascinated with the UFO theory. I mean, that's really what push. It was really research first because I was still like, you know, I'll help edit, maybe flesh out the idea.

We'll throw the ideas back and forth. But then really going into the research, I was like, oh, no, I actually want to be really involved. Right. So, yeah, that's really my story. It wasn't, I wasn't part of that. I wasn't in the UFO world until I was brought on for the project. That's so cool, man.

Because I hear that all the time working with, you know, in television when it comes to UFOs. You know, you have the crew, the cameramen. You have the directors. And they're not entrenched in this stuff, but it's a job for them. And it's a project. And then once they get, you know, going with it, they're like, whoa. Like, this is a whole world I never knew was out there. And now, you know, I've got cameramen that I've worked with in the past reaching out to me, be like, dude, did you see that UFO in San Diego?

Or like, oh, what the hell was over Scotland? this week. It's pretty cool. Like that, you know, even if you are coming from an outside perspective, this topic desperately needs that too. It needs the new fresh eyes to look at it. Um, because Tom knows, you, you get so involved in this that you expect everyone in the outside world to know who Kenneth Arnold is or to know where Roswell is. I can't tell you how many people think Roswell's in Nevada or something like that, you know. So it's, it's interesting. But yeah, Tom, how did you first get interested in your phone? So what brought you into this world?

I mean, I was always interested as a kid. I can't tell you why, honestly. It was something gravitated. It was a topic I gravitated to. I mean, I had a particular, like, citing, I would say, when I was younger, that kind of, like, influenced me later on. But, you know, it wasn't anything crazy. It was just something that you're like, what was that?

But this under, or this overwhelming feeling, rather, that, you know, they're lying to you and, like, you want to figure out why are they lying to you, right? So with this project specifically, you know, like, it was really getting to the history of it. And, like, I was tired of talking to people about it and then not being versed in, you know, in the dates, the names, and things like that, just pretty much why I think this was the, why I think this really did happen. And part of bringing John on, which was really, really cool.

And it's really cool about, like, the tandem that we have. you know like I come in from the lens like no no something definitely happened you know and we're going to figure out how and why whereas John was like like yeah I don't know but the more we got into the research the more we got into the the documentation that of course it's researchers previous to us like jan alderick you know Wendy conners a bunch of other people that like really completed historical record the more we dove and sunk our teeth into it the more like oh shit no something happened and they're clearly lying about it you know well whether it's little green man or whatever, you know, that's up for debate, right?

But something at least in this period of time happened and they were caught flat-footed. And for me, that was very interesting. The government responds to this gave more credence to the theory than anything else, right, than any witness, than anything like that. You know, because this has continued on for 75 years. You know, it hasn't stopped in 47, 48, right? So I always found that that duo with me and John very interesting where like I'll, you know, like we'll attack an idea and then we'll have to really pick it apart because John is a very analytical mind, you know, and for him to accept something like it's got to make sense.

Right. So like when we approach it, it's it's from two different points of view converging onto one, which is nice. Yeah, I'll say two. I mean, first of, yeah, we do have a great tandem in that way. will devils advocate our arguments a lot, whether we agree with them or not. I mean, I'll say, too, the most surprising part of it was, you know, I didn't have a strong dog in the fight. I mean, me and Tom would talk about these things, but I would always cautiously take the position of there's probably an explanation for this, or probably someone's lying or the history is getting skewed or whatever.

And the deeper into the research, not only is it obvious that things are. happening. Like anyone who, they still have, you know, even people that came to Comic-Con, uh, and we're skeptical,

uh, I would just say, listen, just do, do research because there's just, there's too many, um, what's the word?

When there's, there's too much smoke, right? Now we, there's obviously wide range of disagreement on what these, what these things are, what this is, what the details are.

But the idea that there's something really, really strange going on here and that the government has lied about and been able to memory hole outside the mainstream is, it's really quite an amazing story. That might have been more shocking than anything. I was like, not only is this obviously real, but no one knows about this. I had no idea. And it's not like the information is necessarily incredibly difficult to find. You just got to actually do the work. But when we start from the mindset of, well, this is bullshit to begin with, that just becomes a sticking point. And that's just a filter you view the world.

So anything outside that filter like UFO research is just not going to enter into your consciousness. So really it was part of getting over that. Still cautious about plenty of stuff that me and Tom go back and forth. As you should be. Yeah. I mean, I don't always listen to this podcast. It doesn't believe that UFOs are real. But I'm now a believer because I don't think there's any.

other way to believe it. There's no, you have to believe that UFO is real once you get into the research. It's almost irrational. I would say it's irrational at that point after the research that I've done to believe otherwise. And that's really like a cool segment to like what we're doing. Basically like we really want people come away with names, dates, events after reading. So they're going to get a general like like history of what happened and they're able to take that information.

If they want to do their research, now they're equipped. And that for me was like the biggest point of this project was like, okay, this is not just like another like another stupid X-File. I mean, don't even wrong, I love X-Files. But like it's not something that's just like rooted in complete fiction. People who read this will have an idea of what happened. And again, the names, the dates, the correspondence between, you know, certain military officials. And again, some of the sightings around military bases. Like we put all that in there because like, hey, that is.

is a story, that is a history, but B, we want people to be able to take that. And if they want to acquire or research even further, they have the tools now. They have the dates. They have the names. Right. So this is a way of, I don't want to use the word educating. That's a little too much. But like this is, if, you know, if your curiosity is piqued, like you're just, you're

equipped now with the tools to take that curiosity and expand on it, which I think is really like that, for me, you know, the, the crux of this project. It's, it's doing that. Yeah. Well, and you've you've personified these individuals, and I think that's what's most important. You know, you can read a UFO book and hear a name or see a date, and, you know, it's boring. It's dry. It doesn't stick with you until you hear the story behind it.

And I think, you know, giving these people life, giving them character, giving them motivation is what really drew me in. And some of those names, I'm like, damn, they dug deep. Like, I had even heard of some of these people. So immediately, like, I'd put down the comic and I'd start Googling. I'm like, yup, yep. That was the person, yeah. So that really stuck with me. But I kind of want to start here with you guys.

This is the first image from the comic. We have a few images I wanted to share with our YouTube audience here. So if you're just listening to the podcast, guys, you can watch this on YouTube as well. We've got some visuals. You can see these two gentlemen's mugs as well. this is the first image that really caught my attention at the beginning of the comic. Now, here we're seeing kind of as a Catholic or a Christian. I took this as Adam and Eve.

But, yeah, what made you guys want to start the comic with such a powerful and sort of cryptic image? Anyone who wants to take that first? Yeah, John, I think this particular scene was John's idea. And at first I was like, I don't know, do we need a Christian or Catholic element into it? But I mean, the more and more you pitched it, the more like it did make sense. So I'll let John explain the process behind it. Yeah, I may like intellectualize it and make it a little too much because this was just an image that kept popping up doing the research. Not the image, the story of Adam and Eve himself, the idea of this, you know,

quote unquote forbidden knowledge, whether it's, you know, so it is, I guess, symbolic in that sense. I will say on a more practical level, why I would make the connection. I mean, you're just speaking as a Christian chime as well, but also, so it's not in this image, but it opens, essentially, this is the opening image of a dream sequence of the engineer Albert Dierman,

who was a devout Christian and came away with certain conclusions about what these UFOs were, which is very interesting. I found compelling. And yeah, I don't know how to go beyond that. I know I'm already rambling, but there's something about the Garden of Eden, especially because, you know, this is such a military heavy USA head. project where that sort of biblical narrative that's been woven into this country, at least culturally, it just seemed right. And obviously there's a lot you can analyze or come away with

as to what is meant by, you know, the fact that we're making this connection to the fall of, the fall from Eden and eating the forbidden fruit. You know, I have my thoughts about that. But in terms of, I would say on a practical level, it's a reflection of the mental state of the character at the time. Yeah, this was 1948, right? So we opened up with this dream sequence, and Dyerman pretty much, you know, devout Catholic.

Like, he has his dream basically of like eating the fruit from the, you know, from the tree of knowledge, the forbidden fruit. So it's like, it's kind of this question like, okay, well, yeah, I can eat it and gain all this knowledge, but then I lose my innocence, right? And it's kind of what the, what project sign, you know, the route they ended up taking. Like they eventually had to come to a certain conclusion, right? But, you know, you kind of, once you find out, you're not the top of the food chain or there's, other things out there that you shouldn't really know about you know it's a different world after that it's a different lens by which you view everything so i mean when when john you know like john pitched this and um at first again i was hesitant but more and more i was like you know this makes

perfect sense especially for a character like diarman who um who again was very religious um you know sunday mass every sunday volunteered at his church yeah you know so the implications of what this might have meant to a man like that who's also engineer and looks at things that are very nuts and vaults. And all of a sudden, you know, now it's like, or not all of a sudden, but like after some time, it's forced to question his place in the, in the, not only the world, but the universe, I thought this was like a very compelling image. And this came from Mateus, who was one of the artists that work on this project and did

the prologue for us. And he's just phenomenal. You know, he, we laid it out for him and he just did his own thing and we're very happy with the results. Yeah. That's awesome. I'll say to... I'll just say to, not to spoil it, but there is something...

Because this is like a flash forward before moving back into, you know, the present day of the context of the story. Diamond does something very specific that leads him to this sort of torturous distraught... Distressed, I should say, distraffery is too strong. This distress state that starts the series. So that's a little... Not good I get yet. And it's not just about like the conclusion of what they what he thinks the UFOs are. It's something highly specific that he does.

I love that. Good tease. Good tease. And again, like both of you have different interpretations of what this could mean. And I think that's what's beautiful about an image like this. And you do hear this a lot that the lens in which you choose to look at the UFO phenomenon is is very important. You know, someone religious might think it's an angelic. experience or demonic, while a more science-based person thinks this might be visitors from

another planet. So I love this idea that, you know, as this religious character is going to take this journey, how will it affect his faith? How will it affect his belief systems? I'm sure that's a struggle that he'll have as the comic goes on, especially with the work that he's doing. So that's what I loved. I also love this idea of like the creation story, you know, like this is the beginning of time to many Christians out there. And, you know, what could that mean? Where, were there people here before us, uh, or living, uh, just, you know, to the left or right of us the entire time that we didn't know about. Um, so yeah, yeah, you could interpret it so many ways. So that, that image really stuck out to me. So kudos to you guys. And let's give a shout

out if you don't mind, uh, to the artists. I don't think I even asked you guys that. Uh, who were the artists on the first issue here? So the, uh, our main artist is, Ezekiel Anastasia, who, I mean, does phenomenal work. Like, we're very, especially when comes to UFO sightings, we don't want to actually show, like, big aliens coming down. And should we want to show it from the perspective of, like, what these people saw. So we kind of make it very ambiguous.

And, you know, like, I'm personally very happy with, like, how we did Kenneth Arnold, you know, like how we led up to that, to that sighting. So it's Ezekiel Anastasia. And then Mateus, and I'm going to pronounce his last name wrong, it's like Villanamba. I have to actually ask him how to pronounce it. So I haven't talked to him face to face. So like we're a very small operation.

We, me and John live in New York and the artists we work with are in South America that we've been working with for a while. And, you know, it's like that's the team. You know, that and Derry. Like that's the entire team. We're as grassroots as you can get, you know. And again,

we were incredibly blessed to be working with these artists because, like, they just, they come through each and every time, you know, and it's, uh, it's, it's a pleasure. It's, it's always a pleasure. Yeah. Amazing work. Well, you mentioned Kenneth Arnold. Let's move right. That was the next image that really popped out to me.

Every uphologist knows this story. Um, basically the beginning of the flying saucer craze began with Kenneth Arnold. Um, so I'd love to get your guys, both your, um, I guess, initial thoughts on the Kenneth Arnold citing and how you chose to portray it in the comic book here. I thought was pretty interesting in terms of what the military people thought about Kenneth Arnold's citing. Yeah, yeah. Who wants to take that first?

Kenneth Arnold, let's go there. Let's open that can of worms. Yeah, no, Kenneth Arnold is a very interesting character, and we're going to revisit him throughout the series because, as John likes to say, almost anybody who has an experience like this or a sighting like this, it seems like their life, their life just gets worse. You know, like it never ends well. And with Kenneth in particular, he was, he's very, like, respected, self-made businessman who just had a sighting. And, you know, he didn't even, like, report it, so to speak, he mentioned it, you know, on a stop on the way to, I believe it was Oregon, right?

And the word got out. And so, like, when he came out, you know, he was just mobbed by the press. And he was like, look, I don't know what I saw. I personally think it's a U.S. government, you know, craft or missiles that they're testing. And this is just what I saw. And this is, you know, he pretty mapped out where he was, the description of what he saw, how fast he thought it was going, which at the time was like 1,200 miles per hour. And like he even dumped it down, or not dumbed, he like, 1200 miles was like a conservative estimate, you know, per hour. He thought they were going much faster. And this is someone who's flown over this particular area amount where multiple times, right?

So, you know, he's a very interesting character in a sense where, like, he didn't want any of this. He didn't want, like, the fame and not just the fame, the infamy, you know, because, like, it was his nickname after Kenny Saucers. Yeah. He was not taking seriously after that. And for someone like him, you know, it also, like, inspired this curiosity. And he was really determined to find out what it was and was really kind of displeased with

U.S. officials that they weren't doing everything they can if it wasn't domestic to find out what it was, right? So he was very patriotic in that sense where like this might have been, you know, either Russian or German and no one's taking it seriously, why not? You know, so again, very interesting character, almost tragic to a sense. He's personally one of my favorite characters, you know, just because again, like he started the whole UFO craze and the silver disc kind of, you know, mythos, but interestingly enough, it's not the first silver disc sighting. It's just the one that made the papers. I know John likes his character, too. Yeah, I love Kenneth. I mean, again, you know, he was coming from outside the UFO world. I mean, he was one of the guys I actually

did know about. And honestly, sadly, again, that mindset of there's probably an explanation, you know, my initial thoughts, my initial reaction to Kenneth Arnold, not knowing anything about him, not doing any research or whatever was, you know, this guy is maybe a little buffoonish, you know, and it's not true at all. I mean, it's anything but like Tom said, he was a very respected businessman. He was, uh, his reporting of it, which like Tom said, it's not really reporting, was at a sense of patriotism. Like he was scared. He was like, what are these things? It was almost like a possible warning. He's like, I have to warn people. What have I just saw if this isn't a secret U.S. military project that I witnessed. And if it is,

just tell me that and we'll move on. But yeah, in terms of the infamy, it got so bad that, you know, and first off, Arnold was officially investigated. The investigators were impressed with him, impressed with his consistency, his demeanor. There was no sense from their point of view that he was trying to embellish or he was doing it for fame. It was actually the opposite, which is also common among a lot of these sightings. It's not like it's these people coming out. they can't wait to tell you. Like there are a lot of these people like, you had to get it out of them.

Like, I don't want to talk about this. I know I saw something crazy. I know, and they're well aware that, you might perceive me crazy. I know how this sounds. But yeah, with Kenneth Arnold,

it got so bad where he was asked later, like if you saw another sighting, would you tell people? And what was the quote? It was like, if I saw a floating building, I wouldn't know anymore. Yeah.

Yeah. Just give you a sense of how intrusive it got and how much it affected. Like an anecdote of just his character. And this is not covered by the series, but this is later on, he was invited to a radio show with Donald Kehoe and a bunch of others on CBS. And he was supposed to come there and pretty much advocate for the fact that these things are real, the government's lying about it, and just basically talk about possibly his citing.

but like very straight lace and he found out that they they pretty much had people on the program that were going to claim that they were from Venus they also didn't give him like any a rundown of what they're going to talk about

you know like so like he felt compelled enough to actually sent a telegram either the day up I think it's the day up or the day before the program was set to air pretty much ripping them apart saying I want no part of this this is all this is sensational, nonsensical, good day, you know, and that's just who he was.

You know, and again, that's why he's one of my favorite characters. You know, he just, there's not an ounce of attention seeking or, or fame grabbing that, that, you know, you get from. Like John said, just he, he didn't want this. So, yeah, well, even that interview, because they interviewed, he was interviewed, what was a few days later, whatever on a different radio show, because it became a story, right, that he just didn't show up. And he said he didn't want he didn't even want to do that original interview to begin with.

Yeah. He was doing it because it seemed like these people, they convinced them enough where they're like, no, no, no, we want to take you seriously. And he wants to tell his story. And he's like, okay, I think it's important to do that in that context. And then when they started giving them a run around and obviously trying to make these associations between him and these sensational stories and people that are obviously, you know, either grifters or nutcases or whatever.

And that was where he was like, okay, I'm out. I can't trust you people. So again, Arnold, the guy just couldn't catch a break. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish.

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when he landed and kind of reported what had happened, if that first reporter hadn't interviewed him, like, where would this topic be today? I can't, I don't know. Would we be having this conversation right now? would I be spending, you know, 23 of the 24 hours in a day talking about UFOs? I don't know. I don't know. The whole world would be different in terms of this topic and this term flying saucer. And it's crazy to think, you know, in an instant, it could have all changed. And you guys captured that so well, I think, with his character and is really, really well done.

The next, I guess, image that really caught my attention. I'd love to discuss with you guys was this one right here. This is probably my favorite two pages in the book. I'm not going to lie. For the mere fact that Ghost Rockets are not covered that often in the literature, there's very few books written about them. It's a time in history that many UFO researchers shy away from

those more sensational researchers who want to talk about flying saucers, who want to talk about Venusians. But here we have, actual reports of these missile like craft or rockets being seen in Sweden and all over Europe and even in the United States. So yeah, I guess Tom, let's start with you, man. The historical context with the ghost rockets and why you decided to cover it in the book. Well, I believe the ghost rockets were probably the first instance that there might be a novel technology out there that's being

used by Russia, right, which scared our intelligence officers. So basically Sweden had a bunch of these sightings where they would, they would see these rockets, so to speak, you know, like kind of flying over, and some of them even landed in certain places where they kind of, they tried to exivate what was there, and officially they found nothing, right? But the main scare here was that these were these were V2 rockets that were controlled by radio signals. And, uh, it's for all intents and purposes, it looked like Russia was gearing up, right, for something, right? Because like in the context of history, we had, you know,

Germany just fell a couple of years prior. So there were points of control, there were points of allied control and points of Soviet control in Germany where they would pretty much be occupying this land and these manufacturing plants, right? And what was really interesting, they thought that these rockets were coming from Soviet-controlled Soviet controlled like plots of land in Germany.

So these manufacturing plants, and they were shut down at the end of the war, and all of a sudden the Allies, and they start seeing them, there's activity in these plants. And now we started hearing about reports of ghost rockets. And so Sweden thought Russia was either testing a novel missile technology or at the same time trying to intimidate them.

And we thought that was very interesting. And it was really, like, you know, at the end of the war, Russia and the U.S., they were not on the best terms, but they weren't on, it wasn't a cold war, so to speak. It was, you know, we just vanquished, you know, the axis of evil, all right? And now we're getting on with this new era in, you know, like global governments. And so when they saw these manufacturing plants open back up and there were German scientists now that are being shipped over to Russia very quickly, you know, this alerted allies. And it's alerted the U.S. specifically.

And they're like, okay, well, what's going on here? Why are they doing this? Why are they testing this? And now do they have V2 rockets that they're able, basically the first drones, right? Like, you know, do they have this? Let's launch an investigation. And so they did what they could with their, you know, their military contacts in Sweden. But ghost rockets themselves, like ended up ending very ambiguously.

You know, it was determined, I think ultimately that these were, these were, this was a missile technology. that was being utilized by the Soviets using German manufacturing plants and using German scientists. But that's as far as they got. And when these sightings started happening in 47 on, you know, U.S. coast, this was where everyone started looking back to like, oh, well, do you remember what happened last year in Sweden? What if that's happening now over here? What if they found a way to bring that over here? And they're just, they're testing to see if, you know, these things can fly that far. if they're able to control them a certain way.

So this was for us the start of the Soviet hysteria when it came to UFOs, which was like the very big backdrop of our entire series. Yeah. Yeah. And it's brilliant because you're looking at what's going on in the UFO narrative today when it comes to the Pentagon. And we're seeing this ghost rocket thing mirroring what's going on now.

You have the U.S. saying, These UFOs are showing up in our military training installations over nuclear installations. And we know they're not Russia. We know they're not China. There's no way they could be that far advanced. So who's are they? And it's crazy. You're seeing like this whole thing play out again.

It's 22. Yeah. It's a beautiful. And that's what you got inside. I feel like you have to know where you come from because this is a lot of this isn't you. You know, like a lot of what's happening is in you. All of the language they're using might be a liberal.

different, but they're essentially saying the same thing. And again, like UFOs, you know, yeah, UFOs like being cited over military installations, over, you know, like very sensitive areas, like white sands where they were testing V2 rocket missiles, you know, happened back then in 47, so this is not a new occurrence. My opinion is that it's even less contaminated back then because back then it was very clear

that this couldn't have been a new drone or a new piece of technology or something like that. It was very clear what the capabilities were technologically in 47 and 48. Whereas now it's no, what if they invented something new? But I'm sure they had the same feelings back

then. And I know this is also one of John's favorite pieces of history, so I'll let him get a crowd get it. Yeah, I mean, in terms of the ghost So like we have the flying the flying saucers for the

discs but for Ghost Rockets it was cigar shaped. That's what you would see over and over these cigar shaped objects. You know and if you do believe the research and the and you know that came back from that and the journalists and the books talking about the Ghost Rockets, what I found

the craziest part because like you said in terms of it not capturing like the imagination like UFOs did. I mean that makes sense, right? Because they're rockets. They look like rockets. So it's easy for our brains to reconcile. Like, okay, they could have been weapons. And maybe the capabilities that supposed witnesses saw, you know, it wasn't as advanced as they seemed to think, right? Things like that. As opposed to a disc where you're like, well, we've never seen anything like that before no one's ever built

something like that. It actually, as far as we know, is impossible technologically at the time, right? But with the ghost rockets, it's just you'd had these stories of not only would there be multiple witnesses from multiple vantage points, seeing these rockets hit, like crash into lakes. You'd see the water blow up, like 15 foot water columns, with the 20 feet, according to the research. And then people would go investigate. They would, the military would come in and they would try to find debris and they wouldn't find a thing. they wouldn't find a piece of shrapno a piece of metal you would see the the lake would be

ripped up from the root there'd be dirt everywhere water everywhere and they compared it in the research they would compare when like v2 rockets fell from uh uh germany like fell over uh

like Sweden during the war and there'd just be it would break up or it would hit it would hit an empty area like a field and there would just be debris everywhere but when we came to these Ghost Rockets, they couldn't find anything if you believe the research. So that to me was the most compelling, among the most compelling piece of history across this entire time with the meeting of a UFO phenomenon.

And when Kenneth Arnold, sorry, when Kenneth Arnold happened, you know, this is where they went back to. They went back to these files from 46 and like, let's open them back up and let's look into it. You know, so we just think it's a very pivotal point, you know, in terms of how intelligence officers are starting to view this thing, which again, was the tint of Russian rep. Yeah, I mean, that was the official conclusion, right, behind, for the military behind closed doors, you know, possibly radio control missiles. Yeah. From Russia not meant to attack, right? They weren't from, from their understanding, if Russia's doing this, it's not the instance they get a war.

It's to show, it's basically to scare them. Intimidation. Yeah, intimidate. Right. using new military capabilities. But it really doesn't... Again, mirrors what's happening today, too. Right.

And I get, you know, today, too, I think what we get, like, all these sightings and these reports of things that clearly aren't possible. You know, it's easy, but it's easy for us to rationalize. Like, well, maybe the military is capable of doing these things and we don't know. But at least looking in the 40s, where it's like, like Tom just said, now we know for a fact that technology wasn't possible then. So like you said, that seems to be repeating again. And it's easy for us to say, well, maybe we just don't know that they can do X, Y, and Z.

Right. But, you know, obviously we have specific opinions about that. As you should. You're the molder and scully of this comic book. I'm sure your roles switch every now and again, too. But, well, all right, military. Huge part of the comic, obviously. This final image I want to show really, really stuck with me because, look, you ask any military person why they didn't report a UFO and they saw it?

Not just stigma and ridicule, but these guys were sat down and, like, interrogated ferociously. I mean, I've written in the past and interviewed many of the witnesses of the night. 180 Rendell Shum Forest UFO incident. Over 60 military personnel witnessed a UFO land in Suffolk, England, and take back off. And what happened to these dudes and women, I should say, as well, there were military police officers as well who saw this. They were sat down and deprived of sleep, deprived of food, pumped full of, you know, truth serum, as they called it back then, to figure out what the hell of these military people saw land in this forest between two joint military bases. And they were treated horribly by the people, you know, that they respected, the people that they trusted with their lives.

They're superiors. And this image just really stuck with me. You're seeing kind of the lengths in which they would go to try to figure out what the hell these guys saw out there. So yeah, who wants to take this one? What are these? images capture for you. I'll take this one just because there's a bit of history with this. Excuse me. So this was this is based on Armstrong's report, right?

So this is like as far as we'll go in terms of stretching like, you know, what happened behind closed doors. So this scene essentially is based on Armstrong's interrogation of the intelligence officer who saw you know, five or six chrome metal discs in was interrogated. So the information we got, right, was that the intelligence officer at the time

was Shulgin from the Pentagon. He basically was annoyed that, you know, Kenneth Arnold happened. Now all of a sudden people are, you know, giving sightings left and right. And this is all before July 4th. It's a social contagion at that point in their minds. Like, okay, this one guy saw something that everyone else else was repeating it. They want to get in newspaper, et cetera, et cetera. So he came down and he interrogated Armstrong about his sighting. And the notes that we got were that Armstrong did not falter and stuck to his guns, basically, even though he was thoroughly, like, intimidated and interrogated and whatnot. So the details of what happened in that interrogation, we don't know, right?

That's not disclosed. We don't know really what happened. So we took a little liberty, it being a comic book, and trying to make it visually appealing and also like, um, there's just still trying to keep it in the context of the story. So we don't know if this actually, if like,

you know, he was pumped to like the truth serum or how harsh interrogation was. We do know that he did stick to his sighting. He did stick to his guns. And, you know, Shulgin was actually thoroughly annoyed that he had to do this and, and be face to face this guy. He was basically there set him straight and say like,

you didn't see this. You know, this is a social contagion, why our military officers now reporting this, right? We can't have this go on. So we put our own little spin on it. And this is as far as we will go with, like, stretching what goes on behind, you know, closed doors. And me and John, a little back and forth because John originally didn't want to go this far in terms of, you know, of how thoroughly he was investigated. Right?

And I was like, no, John, it's a comic book. We have to, you know, we have to draw people in. and somehow it's also to be entertaining. But the more I look at it, the more I'm like, I see where John is coming from. So I think we had a nice balance of what happened and, you know, what could have happened in this scene. It's also just a very engaging scene like alone.

If you take away the sorrel context and all that stuff, it's my favorite scene in the whole book. It's just like very visually visceral, and that's what we wanted. And I'll let John, you know, give us two cents. Yeah, so I'll just say, I mean, it is, it does look awesome. And, you know, what did turn me in terms of the research, you know, this is a manifestation of like really the paranoia and fear that really did start to grip the military with this stuff. And the idea of them also, another theory that I feel like is barely talked about is, you know, in terms of.

terms of the reports themselves, it wasn't even necessarily that they thought like witnesses were seeing things. Also, there was a theory of Russian disinformation agents operating in the U.S. That's part of the theory. Like, are they planting these stories, which is also starting a social contagion, and then everyone starts to see things that actually aren't there? So that was actually real, too. And that's really what hooked me where I'm like, okay, then I can buy. this. We're like, this is actually, you know, this is something you can imagine actually happening. But for sure, this is a bit of a stretch. I mean, at the end of the day, we never know what these people talk about behind closed doors when it comes to any historical story for the most part, unless you're

going to get from a memoir and then you have to take the person's word for it. So we, you know, we surround it as fact-based as possible with the drama that we have to create. But of course, we want to keep that within within reason of what could or couldn't actually happen. Yeah, and the sighting is real. The actual interrogation is real.

Yeah, he was actually interrogated. And everything he describes is, and again, this is something we... From his report. Totally hardcore on me and Tom is descriptions of all the sightings. I mean, don't embellish them whatsoever because, I mean, you don't have to.

Yeah. You know, anyone that knows even the Kenneth Arnold citing casually knows, like, how much are you going to embellish? Yeah, some of these official reports, you know, they read as sci-fi novels. They truly do. I remember my first FOIA request that I got sent back to me was on the Tehran UFO incident of 1976. And, oh, my God, reads like a sci-fi novel.

And these are official DIA documents. It's crazy. Is it sci-fi? But that's your story? Like, you know. That wrong one of the first major UFO incidents. I learned about where I was like, holy crap, this is. Yeah.

Yeah, it's stranger than fiction. It's too crazy to not be true. Like, you know. Well, and too. You know, I think what this scene sort of embodies is this idea of that paranoia at the time. And the lengths in which we would go even on our own soldiers or pilots to tell us what they saw. if they were working for Russia. I mean, we know for a fact, in the 80s at least,

like Russia was sending people to UFO conferences. This isn't like some conspiracy theory. Like we know for a fact now. They were planting people there because these UFO conferences were a place where maybe a military person would come and be like, hey, this highly advanced aircraft was seen. So many people saw it. So of course, like Russians are going to want to know,

oh, what's being seen over the skies over there? And is it ours or is it something we should worry about? Yeah, there is history and documentation of such things. So, yeah, yeah, I thought it was really cool that you guys covered this for sure. And yeah, I just kept bringing me back to the Rendlesham case where many officers, again, allegedly were pumped full of this serum to tell the truth about what they'd seen or whatnot. So, yeah, well done.

Well done on that. I love it. I'd love to see this in color for sure. Oh, man. Color is great. We actually have this scene in color. But again, black and white seems to work so well that like we're going to have two different versions because I mean, I didn't think black and white was going to work this well. It just, it lends itself to the time period too. And it was going to say. Like it just goes to show you how seriously they take this. How seriously our government took this. And, you know, our whole project is about the government's first investigation into the UFO. phenomenon, Project Sign, right, follows Dyerman and Ludding. And the takeaway from this, you know, even McCoy, who is the general commander, well, no, that was actually 20, but he pretty much was involved in Project Sign at the helm of it. He even said, we threw everything we could at it. This was at least from what's been declassified,

not just the first, but the most comprehensive investigation with the most talented engineers and intelligence officers we had at the time. And I think that's like that that that is so compelling and so interesting. And it's wild that more people don't know about this because we haven't had something since. Blue Book was nothing compared I mean, Blue Book was its own thing, but like compared to Project Sign, like I personally don't think it holds a candle. You know, and like you'll have these intelligence officers say again and again, we threw everything we had in the kitchen sink at it to really, really find out what was going on. And that's how seriously they took this phenomenon, you know, and that that's just something that I think, you know, if more people, more people aware of, it might change the lens of how they view this subject.

Well, if our military and our government really, really took this seriously to this extent, you know, like John said, there's just too much smoke for there not to be fire. Yep, absolutely. You know, and I think, you know, the fact that you're going pre-project Blue Book is vital because I think you're right. That's when it was untainted. It was really, like you said, they really wanted to get to the bottom of this for many reasons. Where by the time we get to Blue Book, you can tell it was kind of almost like a publicity stunt to kind of calm the nerves of the American public and tell them we got this. It's under control. You know, either we can explain what it is or people are crazy. And you don't have to worry about those nuts see and flying saucers.

where signed, you're right. They really were legitimately trying to figure out what this was. Not to say they weren't with Blue Book, but once you get past that, after Project Blue Book closed, supposedly there was nothing until the world changed in 2017. We learned about the Secret Pentagon Program, and now we're living in an age where there's been congressional hearings on UFOs. There's annual UAP reports coming. coming out from the Pentagon about these things. And we just got a new office called Arrow.

So I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this, where we are in current day in the UFO discussion. Let me get this right. The All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office is what they're calling it, where they're going to be looking at UFOs and transmedium craft. These supposed objects that can go in the water, come out, fly into space. It's crazy. So yeah, love to get your guys' thoughts.

You're working on a comic about the historical context of all this. But we're now living in a new age of UFO investigation within the U.S. government. So, yeah, is any of what's going on now going to influence what you're doing with the work on the comic? Well, it's really interesting what's going on now. I mean, first of all, I know people have their thoughts about Louis Luzondo and Mellon and all those. But at the end of the day, like, where was Uphology? in the 80s, the 90s, even in the 70s through 90s, it was in the gutter, right?

So the fact that we even have congressional hearings now, the fact that, you know, we have Arrow coming out, they deserve quite a bit of credit for at least bringing it to the forefront of public perception, right? And personally, I do think that what we're seeing is just, it's, the language is very similar. They just seem to be, you know,

like things seem to be repeating, right? Now they're saying, yeah, there's something out there, and we're going to have an office to kind of figure out what it is, right? Whereas in the 40s, you know, in 50s, like they said the same exact thing, but they kind of kept it internal. Now this is like a public document like Arrow came out. It doesn't have to be declassified. Anybody can go on and check it out and see that memorandum, right? So it's important to look at the language that they're using now. You know, the language seems to imply something very hostile, which, you know, might not.

agree with certain people's theories or anything like that. But again, if you just look at the language and look at what they're saying, like, you know, around military installations, around sensitive areas, things like that, these seem to be focused around very sensitive military installations, which, again, has been happening for 75 years. It just now seems like they're trying to get it out in the public more. So personally, I think it's because they can't they can't keep a lid on it any longer in terms of they've been trying to get their hands around it for so long. And now it's like, okay, well, this is going to blow open sooner or later. So we might as well get on the ball now, right?

And at least like start being a little bit more forthcoming. Also, you know, it does start like a new era in a sense where I think the government would love to just erase the last 75 years of how they handled, you know, this phenomenon. right it's a very embarrassing and two like they they ruined a lot of people along the way right so if they came out and admit tomorrow this has been real the whole time right like there there's there's a lot of people out there that like well you know I was ridiculed for this I lost my job because of this um you know red panda has a great documentary series about like how they had a whole uh they had pretty much like had a whole program to to kind of to make it look like this was a joke Right. Which, by the way, I had one of his videos playing at our booth.

So shout out to Red Panda. If you guys haven't seen his documentaries, they're by far the best out there. Like, he should be on History Channel. What you're seeing on History Channel now with like ancient aliens nonsense and whatever, like, it doesn't hold a candle, you know. But if you, again, my general sense is it's, it does seem to be repeating itself. The language is just a little bit more assertive now, you know, and a little bit more, um, concerning, which for me is very, it's like, well, okay, man, that's, I mean, a lot of us might have felt that way, but now if you guys are saying that, you know, it's a little scarier.

And I know John has, John might feel similar in certain regards, but he definitely has his own point of view on, on what's going on and how we got here. So I'll defer. Yeah, I'll just say, I, I trust the, I trust the government less when they talk about it more. So it's like if I didn't, I believe in the UFOs, but if I didn't, the government coming out and making a public statement about UFOs now existing would make me not believe in UFOs. Because I don't trust, after 75 years of discrediting people and hiding information and suppressing information and harming the careers and reputations of some of the most brilliant. engineers and employees and so and military people you've ever had just to make sure that they are also discredited in disseminating this information. I am very, very cautious and I'm also suspicious of why they're now coming out and saying that. You know, if I'm going to assume earnestness,

I think Tom is right that it's almost like maybe a priming in terms of like, guys, this is going to get out of hand. This is just going to happen. It's going to become more and more regular that we can't deny it anymore. So let's just let it out little by little. You know, but there's still plenty of classified documents they won't release. There's still plenty of documents they can't even find. I mean, even the estimate of the situation, the original one, because there were changes to it. But the original one, we still don't know where it is.

They believe, we don't know if it's destroyed. We don't know if it's in the National Archives somewhere, which it might as well be destroyed because it's like a needle in 100 haystacks. You know, so my direct answer is I don't know. I don't know what to think. But I will say I don't trust the information when their game is, you know, to put it lightly to massage the truth. And, you know, their job is to keep us safe and calm,

not to rile us up and get us paranoid. And, you know, but I don't know, maybe they're, maybe they're, maybe they are trying to get us paranoid. I don't know. I don't know. I actually would be interested in know what you think. Because you're probably more versus in the modern UFO stuff with what's just happening than I am.

Well, you know, and I mean, not necessarily. I wish I was, John. Any anyone out there who claims to be an expert on these UFO UFOs is lying to you. But yeah, I mean, I do live, breathe, sleep a lot of this stuff and try to stay up to date with everything going on. And I have made it very clear that at least in my opinion, ever since 2017, since the, you know, we learned about this Pentagon program and in threat. We've heard that word a billion times at this point. And you've had people like Lou Alizondo come out and Christopher Mellon. And I don't know. I don't know what to make up all of it.

For me, personally, ever since that article came out, it's been in the back of my mind that this has all been planned. This is all a strategy for some reason. What that reason is, I don't know. But ever since that article came out, I believe that was the moment, the strategy began and I don't know where it's heading but I do feel that

where we are today with this new office with you know the the way the topic is being portrayed to the public now that it's all been planned for some reason I don't know why I can't pretend to have any answers to that

but you look at this situation in Ukraine and you're you have to wonder like we did know something was going to happen with Russia. We saw the writing on the wall that something was going to happen between Russia and Ukraine. Our U.S. intelligence has known this for a long time. It was just a matter of when. And then what happens in the meantime, this entire UFO story

explodes into the mainstream. And now we're hearing there's things in the skies that we don't know who's they are. And it does truly make me wonder. It really does. Every everything that's happened from 2017 on, is this part of some big game being played between these superpowers? I honestly can't tell you. And everyone talks about Russia, but I mean, look at China. No one ever talks about China. And the drone technology that they have right now is absolutely incredible. So we've got to keep that in mind, too. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. that was a very long-winded answer. I don't know.

I don't know why all this is happening now, but I find it fascinating. But I also try to remind people, you know, for every military UFO scene over a military installation, there's like 100 civilian witnesses, someone like Kenneth Arnold, who saw something and is wrestling with what they saw as well.

So, yeah, that's what I try to remind people of. Yeah, for every, government military UFO case. There's a hundred other cases out there to look at as well. So yeah. That's my really rambling thoughts on everything going on right now. I mean, it's just like interesting because, again, the wording that they're using is a lot more pointed and a lot more like these are, this, this is a threat. Not that this is something that's just might be out there. That this could pose a national, security threat. And, you know, again, this was the fear back in 47. And it's almost, it's wild

that it took 75 years ago from the fear to now go to admitting that this is a national security threat if it's not taking seriously, you know. And I really, I urge people to like go and do their research and look into Project Sign, really like look into the correspondences between people like Garrett's original estimate from the Pentagon and then the twining memo. You know, like you'll find a lot of what we're hearing and seeing now is being repeated. And, you know, for me, I just have to ask, well, why now? You know, what's the difference now? Because it does seem like after the 70s, this was just like a whole kibosh on the whole thing.

It's just like we're not even going to, we're not going to mention it. We're not going to talk about it. And they just seem so, so much more open now. So, like, I mean, again, personally, I think they're just getting a little desperate. and they probably haven't handled it the right way. You know, so now they're trying to hopefully, you know, wrap their hands around it, but this time with the public involved. I hope so, man.

I do hope the public is involved. I hope they're more transparent than they have been in the past as represented in your comic. And I can't wait to see where all of it's heading in terms of the comic and in real life, but I got to ask, you know, kind of final words. I told you guys 45 minutes. I've kept you here way longer than that, so you've been gracious with your time. What do you hope people will take away from the comic, each of you guys? What is like the one thing you really want people to take away from estimate of the situation? Tom, let's start with you. Oh, wait, start with John, or?

Tom. Oh, I mean, I touched on it earlier. I really want people to walk away with dates, names, events and have a general idea of what happened and it was taken very seriously. And again, they can take that and they can do the research themselves. And, you know, I do plan on releasing like a list of sources that we've used. And there's just incredible researchers that we've worked with, you know, like I hit up Jan Eldrick, who is kind of a funny guy, but he's very straight-lace about what happened. Wendy Connors, who passed away earlier this year, who, you know, we had a back and forth for a couple months and she was extremely helpful. I mean, she sent us an archive of interviews with

the relatives of Project Sign, which John, I know, found extremely helpful, like Dyerman's son, Ludding's son, the people who are involved, you know, and these are old school researchers who really kind of cut their teeth in, you know, like in this idea of journalism. Like, we're going to find out what happened by completing the historical record, not by interjecting your own opinion about it, you know, and I really want to to kind of push that a little bit, you know, and also I just personally want people to enjoy the story. You know, I think it's a very compelling story, compelling individuals, and again, just the estimate of the situation, the document itself and the hypothesis that they ended up coming to, or the conclusion, rather,

just the journey of going from this is probably domestic project that we don't know about, to, oh shit, it's not anybody's, it's not Russia, it's not whatever. You know, spoiler alert, by the way. But we think it's a very compelling journey. Yeah, I'll defer to John. Yeah, I'll keep it short because I've been rambling a lot. I want people to be entertained. I hope it's, they find it to be a compelling story. First and foremost, I would say, especially for the people who already know a lot of this history, but maybe don't know this specific story. You know, because we're talking to much of the UFO community.

And also, like Tom said, just to learn and also, if you are skeptical, if you come away from this with a newfound respect for these UFO phenomenon and realize, like, this stuff is serious. It's real. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of baggage around it on both on all sides. But, yeah, at the end of the day, it's a compelling story about a true phenomenon. I love that.

I love that. And kind of last question there, on that cover there, we're seeing the alien autopsy. So I got to ask, guys, are we hitting Roswell? Are you going to take us to Roswell? It's a bit of an Easter. for the cover. We are working or planning on doing a Roswell miniseries because Roswell itself is such a it's such a cluster. Can we curse on here? Yes, you can, please. Especially when it comes to Roswell. Yeah, no, there's so many accounts and so many, like, differing accounts of what happened that day.

So for us to really get into it, we're going to have to do a lot of research and tell this story as authentically as we can. It does give us a little bit more room to be a little bit more creative in that sense. But, you know, that cover is an Easter egg. It's a limited cover that we're going to put out. But it's going to be its own separate miniseries. And we're going to try to do Roswell justice

in a way that hasn't been done before. You know, in terms of like people who, again, with estimate of the situation, they'll read it. They'll come away, names, dates, facts, and be able to go on their own journey in that sense. Again, with Roswell, though, It's just very convoluted in that sense.

And any historian will tell you, like, it's still up in the air, like, what happened, did it happen? I personally believe it did. I think there's enough supporting evidence to make a case for it. But it's also just, it's such a cool story. In, you know, in American lore specifically, when that video came out, it was in the 90s, you know, that took everybody by storm. And, you know, it wasn't real. Was it the Centa? Sinterrelli film, or I don't know how you pronounce his name, but.

And Tilly, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a very, it was a very compelling piece of work. You almost wish it was real, right? But it just, again, goes to show you that, like, that Roswell specifically is something that is very convoluted, and we're going to have to take some care with it, you know. I know John particularly hates that cover just because we show the alien in there,

but. I love it for Roswell. I mean, just because Roswell, like Tom said, there's so much mystery self-terfuge around it that we and it does give us the freedom to be a lot more speculative but there's going to be a lot more creative speculation in there that also that will be grounded in at you know the research um and the circumstantial evidence but um we're gonna roswell allows us to have a lot of strong opinions expressed um because you sort you have to you have to decide what happened there yeah

You know, at the end of the day, if you're going to tell that story, you have to have an opinion about what happened. I love it. Well, I'm wishing you luck. I know it's no small feat to cover Roswell. Well, guys, of course, the most important question of the night. I know you have an interesting rollout for the comic. So whoever wants to take this, when and where can we find estimate of the situation? Oh, man, that is the question.

So we had a comic book, I mean a Comic Con limited run. We almost sold out of that. So that was pretty cool. And so I sent out a few copies to members in the community who supported us. You know, shout out to Shane, Tupacabra, Chase, you know, Thomas Whitmore. I know I'm missing other people, Christopher Woodford. So we're sending them advanced copies and hopefully they get a chance to kind of get it before anybody else. but we're rolling out with like a website probably next week, probably by Monday by the time

this podcast comes out. And that would be blacktie labs. NYC for now, right? We're still figuring this out. It's weird, like I can't stress how small we are. So, and people will be able to order online. We'll be able to ship it out. And, you know, we welcome any reviews, any, any sort of thoughts, things like that, you know, like we love hearing about what people think about it. So, because it helps us inform us as we go along with this series, which is going to be an eight-issue run. So Black Tie Labs at NYC, also Instagram, estimate of the situation, and probably the best place to get updates is our Twitter.

EOTS underscore Comic. I'm super active on there, and I'm probably more active with actually being in the community. I'll go into spaces. I really won't speak about the project. we're working on, but I do like engage in the community and hearing different thoughts about this subject. And frankly, I've learned a lot, you know. So that's the best place to check it out right now is EOTS underscore comic at Twitter. Awesome. Well, and hey, I got to thank you guys. This is just such a incredible project. I'm so happy you decided to pursue this and to see it actually come to life

now. I can't even imagine that feeling. So I can't wait to see where it goes. My pipe dream for this is you guys both as actors in New York that we're going to see estimate of the situation in film or on the stage on Broadway maybe someday. I don't know.

Dude, we would love for this to be a movie. I personally don't want to act. I can see it now. Yeah, like Oppenheimer, that trailer came out and like, man, like, why is this topic not taking when such gravity? You know, like, in a style of that kind of a movie,

grounded in reality, grounded in historical roots. Personally, again, like I would never want to be in front of the camera when that happens, but I would love to see it come to life. I see it happening. The future looks bright for estimate of the situation, guys. So please check it out. Go to the socials. We'll have links to everything you guys are doing in the show notes.

But yeah, yeah, thank you for joining us tonight on Somewhere in the Skies. And I'm wishing you all the best for continued. success for estimate of the situation. Awesome. Thanks, Ryan. This was awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Great. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.