Somewhere in the Skies - 'Fast Movers', Transmedium Vehicles, and the Pentagon UAP Task Force

Episode Date: December 5, 2020

On episode 190 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, the entire crew of the recently launched news media outlet, The Debrief, join us to talk all about this exciting new endeavor. Micah Hanks, MJ Banias, and Tim McMillan then walk us through their recent article that is definitely turning some heads in and out of the UFO/UAP world. Several UFO reports that the recently announced Pentagon UAP Task were looking in to were both shared across high-level intelligence channels, and were leaked to one of our guests today, Tim McMillan. We hear all about these shocking reports, a leaked photo that is attached to one of them, and so much more about what's to come with the Debrief as we "fast-move" in to the future. Watch the full video interview by CLICKING HERE Visit the Debrief at: www.thedebrief.org Audiobook now available! To order, CLICK HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yeah, cool. A Lego set is a gift that always clicks. And clicks. The end of the final lap, and we've got a champion. And clicks. For kids who love everything on wheels, choose a Lego set. A gift that always clicks. What's up, guys, Ryan Sprague here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign.

Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you. return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome everyone to a very special episode of Somewhere in the guys. We are coming off the heels of some incredible things going on in the UAP world and beyond. And with me today, I can't believe we made this happen. I have got the entire crew of the new

website, the debrief with me today. So welcome to the show. We have all the guys with us. MJ, Tim, and Micah, welcome to Summer in the Skies, guys. Good to be here. Thanks very much for having. You've never seen these people in my life. What? Who are? That's not MJ. Gentlemen, first and foremost, congratulations on the launch of the debrief. We're going to get into that first before we get to what I know everyone is here to actually hear about. And that is the article, but we will get there.

We will get there. And not only the article, but a drop you did literally moments before we got on the air here today. You sneaky guys, we will get into that too. But before we do that, how does it feel to have this? the debrief up and going. Please tell me the origin. When did this idea really, you know, go from planting the seed to official launch? Anyone who wants to hop in, give us the origin story of the debrief, if you don't mind.

Well, you know, I might as well because by now I'm sure if your listenership isn't already tired of seeing my face on here, Ryan, then they aren't going to be tired of hearing a little more. I mean, you know, these guys, Tim and MJ and I, we've all known each other for quite a while. and I don't think we've really even hardly had time to really process everything about, you know, how it feels. There's barely been time for that because with the launch, it's been go, go, go. But what a lot of folks probably are less aware of is the fact that this has been a long time coming. There's been a lot of work that went into this. Really, I would say more than a year in the making, you know, when Tim and I first initially had the pre-discussion discussions about it, you know, an idea that took shape and began to really crystallize when, you know, the three of us, M.J. and Tim and I begin to discuss this a few months ago and really start working out how we would do it and what we would want to do,

how we would more importantly prevent it from just being another UFO blog and how we could kind of raise the bar on the discussion about science, technology, defense, the future, and what role maybe undidentified aerial phenomena plays in that. Now, this is an exciting time, but I'd like to turn it over to Tim maybe first and discuss a little bit about an operative term that he really brought into the discussion very early on. That was disruptive technology, and that's really, I think, a main focus of what we're trying to report on with the debrief? No, like Micah said, you know, we came together, all of us as friends, and kind of looking at it, definitely the UFO topic binds us together, but there's a lot more that goes on beyond the UFO topic. And like Micah mentioned, when we're talking about what UFOs or UAP, whatever you want

to call it, could represent, we're talking about disruptive technology. And we're talking about technology that changes the world. It changes life. It's the automobile from the horse. It's the airplane. It's the internet and how we're able to do this here. That technology is always evolving. It's always on the playing field. And but, and a lot of times it's in what might be considered fringe ideas. There's a difference between really, really fringe or people that have imaginations or we like to call it rebelliously curious. about what's coming. And so that's kind of what we focus on, is what is the science and technology that's out there that could end up being disruptive and changing life as we know it. It's going to happen. I mean, you just think of it, you know, in all of us are relatively young guys, some of us younger than others, MJ. But, you know, you think about it in your span of life. What is different? You know, I grew up with a VCR. I remember getting a VCR at Sam's Club with my parents, and this is like, holy, oh, my gosh, and renting movies at Blockbuster.

Those don't even exist anymore. So disruptive technologies is constantly happening, and the science that is allowing it is constantly happening. And that's what we want to focus on. And the UFO part of it is there's so much more imagination that comes out of it. And you realize there's actual things that could come from this, no matter what they represent. Yeah, you know, one more thing I think also. to add, and really M.J. can speak to this point, too, Ryan, is where you kind of bridge what science currently knows, where we are operating within current scientific paradigms. And, you know,

some of the speculations about purported UAP or similar subjects. Again, those are subjects that if science can be applied properly, which we hope that they can be. They stand to reason that they might be able to expand scientific paradigms, you know, even move us into new areas of thought with relation to science. But, you know, M.J. had a piece. recently interviewing Seth Shostak. I mean, he's long really been a critic, I think, of a lot of the UAP, UFO debate, but he's nonetheless a scientist who's looking for aliens. M.J. Yeah, I think, you know, the perk of our site and the niche it maybe fits into that is really untapped. We're not necessarily afraid to talk to individuals and work with individuals and get into those news stories that other places may not want to touch because they are a little fringy and because they are a little out there, especially on the science and technology front or in the defense front.

So, so, you know, when it comes to SETI, for example, as Micah mentioned, you know, Seth Schostack is really into UFOs, actually. It's something he really loves and something he's really passionate about. He loves talking about them. But he's also a scientist. So, like we said, sort of bridging that gap between the science of today and what we know about the universe today, physics, chemistry, biology, and how is that going to change in the next 50 years or century?

you know, I think people looked at the Wright brothers and called them insane or people, when it was suggested that we could go to the moon, you know, view that as ridiculous. So I think, you know, people look at the stuff we're writing about now, whether it's artificial intelligence, whether it's exoplanets, whether it's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence, whether it's, I don't know, China's going to the moon and collecting lunar samples, you know, how is that going to affect our future? How is it going to affect the future of our species? And that's what this site wants to do. And we want to do it well with rigor and with objectivity.

Absolutely. And you guys are touching on, I think, kind of the main component of the world we live in today. And I do want to touch on this before we get into the article is science. You know, here in America, at least, MJ, I know it might be a little different up in your neck of the woods. we're living in a scary time in the United States where science has kind of been put on the back burner for a lot of people, which is, I can't believe I'm actually saying that right now in the year 2020, that people don't trust our institutions and our science. So to see something like the debrief come along and show the benefit of these things and always looking forward, and again, putting our trust into these brilliant minds all over the world that you guys have made,

connections with and our writing about, it gives me hope that we can kind of dig our way out of this almost caveman-like mentality that we seem to be in the United States right now. So if anyone wants to touch on that, how big of a role will, you know, science play in a lot of what you're covering? Well, you know, that reminds me of something interesting that came up in a conversation I had with a friend of ours, Jazz Shaw, just the other day. And jazz had said, you know, why in the world? and many folks are asking this, you know, why would you guys launch in the middle of a pandemic?

But I think that really the choice of launching right now, I mean, it has both, you know, operational aspects, but I mean, I think it also bespeaks really fundamentally what we're trying to do. With 2020, I think more so than any year previously, at least in recent memory, we have learned never to take anything for granted. I mean, this has been a year that will be remembered and one that has really fundamentally changed the way of life for people all around the world. And one thing that I think that we have to be aware of is how quickly and how easily the comfort that we're so used to operating in can be offset and upset. And so with the debrief, I think one thing that we certainly all share, and I know that MJ and Tim and I have spoken about this at length on numerous occasions throughout the process of getting this set up is, you know, what are the potential threats that humankind faces? Now, for instance, UAP, there's no evidence that I know of, and apparently based on what, you know, government, is released about this that indicates in any way overtly that there is a threat potential. And in fact, there doesn't even seem to be a scientific consensus on what UAP might represent,

let alone whether it exists. I happen to be in the camp that thinks that it does. But I want more science applied to it before we late to conclusions. Nonetheless, I think it's important to point out that the Pentagon's own program, the advanced aerospace threat identification program, uses the operative term threat identification. And so obviously when our military is looking at something from a national security perspective, what they hope to try and do is identify and assess whether a threat potential exists and if so how that can be mitigated. But that's not our only focus when it comes to that topic.

I bring that up here because I think it is fundamentally important in the broader scope of everything that we look at with the debrief. Look at artificial intelligence. If in the future there is a potential that a machine intelligence akin to a super intelligence that far exceeds what human intelligence is capable of, yet again, humans will be confronted with something very similar to what might occur if and when UFOs touched down on the White House lawn, which again, it's debatable whether that would happen. But in that science fiction sense of things, what that would entail is humans suddenly become aware and are confronted with an intelligence that's far superior or at least has more technological sophistication than ours

in our current paradigms. And so I look at artificial intelligence very much in the same way. But extend that to pandemics. How many experts, for how many decades, have been warning, it's only a matter of time. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when the next influenza outbreak, the next Spanish flu scale pandemic erupts. That climate change, planetary defense from asteroid impacts, and any number of other things or things we need to be looking at today. And so I think that part of what we hope to try and do, and again, one of my colleagues, I'm sure, can speak to this point, is how do we analyze these things intelligently?

How do we report on them responsibly? How do we raise the bar on the discussion that's being had and really promote awareness about these things? And so to your point, Ryan, you know, bringing science into the discussion is the most important thing we could be doing with all these topics. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you guys want to comment on that at all? But MJ God, no, I don't want to follow that. Are you kidding me? He's the brains. Don't listen to that. Well, I think the big thing, too, is like, MJ, you can speak to this. Speaking to Seth Shawstock, someone who the UFO community kind of finds is, you know, one of the enemies in our quote-unquote field.

when in reality, if that's far from the case, what were your observations in talking to Seth on what I can only assume is going to be future articles as well. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carrano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Nganoe, versus Falun.

Felipe Lins. Watch Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. Yeah, listen, you know, I think Seth, he's into UFOs as a sort of enjoyable, you know, subject he likes to dabble in. But realistically, he's a scientist, and he wants reproducible results, and he wants to be able to, you know, do lab testing on data. And that's fine. And unfortunately, you know, UFOs traditionally don't fit. into that scenario.

They don't fit into the ability to be reproduced and then tested. So we rely fundamentally on very little to try and piece this puzzle together. You know, that being said, we need to appreciate that we have military aviators. We have sources sort of that literally work within the DOD who are willing to sort of explain that, you know, this is a picture, for example, that was just released today that was attached to this report. Take from it what you want. It was in the report. And I think as a news organization, the debrief is going to simply say, okay, well, the report has this picture attached to it. So let's get that out there because I think people need to know and people need to see that.

We're not going to comment and we're not going to push a narrative. We're not going to say that that picture right there is an image of an alien spaceship. For all we know, it could be a balloon. The fact of the matter is, though, it was attached to a report that was put out. by a task force whose job it is is to investigate unknown aerial phenomena. And as I said yesterday on the Rojas report, competition to your podcast. Alejandro is a close friend and supporter. He got me my start in all this. I should say that.

Perfect. So, moving on. What I said to him was either, you know, either, you know, like we have multiple boxes here, right? either this is foreign test craft, which is scary. This is some sort of unknown otherworldly slash not us situation, which is scary. Or the people who run the DoD and the task force and the Office of Naval Intelligence or whoever, the Pentagon, they think it's an alien when it's just a balloon. And that's equally scary too, right?

Like we're perfectly fine to just sort of report the objective fact of the matter. this is a picture. Let's keep trying to turn up stones. And I think where my issue lies is when the UFO community suddenly says, you know, I've been studying UFOs now for 20 years. I'm an expert in all things. I think it's a balloon. Therefore, it's a balloon. It's like, well, you know, I'm not really sure if that's true. I mean, that could be an option, but it might not be. So we're trying to do this as objectively as possible as journalists without trying to editorialize. This photo was included in a report circulated concerning UAP within the intelligence community. That's what we're reporting.

People want to speculate and say, yeah, you know, here's a picture of a balloon because I've been setting UFOs for 20 years and I'm an expert. That's fine. You can delude yourself. If that's what you think, go nuts. But that's not my job to speculate or editorialize. I just tell you what we know. Exactly. You're reporting.

Absolutely. Well, let's kind of rewind then, guys. I want to talk about the article. Now, this article you guys dropped yesterday, which would have been December 2nd, crashed your server. So before we would talk about the content, that is one of our listener questions.

Were you surprised by the response you've got? I mean, I was out of this question. Every hour on the hour waiting for this thing to come out. In the minute it did, boom. So, yeah, who wants to comment on that? Maybe I'll give you the prelude because really this is Tim's story and he needs to talk about it. But I will just say I was up and I was watching Tim and Tom Rogan and others tweeting at 3 a.m. East Coast time. It was about 8 o'clock his time over there.

I was up the night before. And yeah, I was preparing. And I thought there'd be a lot of traffic. And I thought, I'll get up, I'll have the coffee. I'll be up by about 6. Article drops at about 703 a.m. Eastern time. And then, you know, we'll watch the server and just, you know, kind of make sure everything runs smoothly. well, there's a lot of traffic.

Let's just say there was, I mean, I think before 11 a.m., we had had thousands and thousands of individual views. It was quite a lot. And so, yes, we brought in some help and, you know, maintained. But again, you know, the whole thing is, is it felt at times like bailing water. But, you know, I mean, the site performance,

all things considered considering the attention that the article got, actually did pretty well. And we made it through it and we're all still friends, right? Yeah, and I mean, what a good problem to have. So, Tim, let's talk. Let's give the title, Fast Movers and Transmedium Vehicles, the Pentagon's Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force. This task force we've been hearing about for a while now, a lot of people are, you know,

we're saying we're not going to find out anything from this task force. It's all going to be classified. Public won't know anything. And then, boom, you guys drop this. So, Tim, maybe give us a little background. How, what was the process of this beast of? of an article. I mean, when you come out with something, man, we know that you've been working on this for a while. So yeah, give us the origin story of this article, if you don't mind.

Sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that, the idea that, you know, people were like, we're not going to get anything that's going to be classified. That's kind of the origin of it. And that if you read in the article, and indeed, this has been, we've been working on this for months to try to present the best quality product we can possibly provide and work in the circumstances we have to work in. And, you know, so we can stand behind it and say we put something forward that we feel very, very confident that it is, you know, the best evidence we can provide. And it really started, as you'll see in that article where we got the FOIA release,

indicating that, you know, there have been meetings on UAP and not even just meetings, but you had the vice chief of the Navy's, second highest ranking member of the United States Navy telling the vice chief of the Air Force, I recommend you take this briefing on UAP, you know, and then acknowledging the Secretary of the Navy had just received the briefing. And so you have the highest levels of the U.S. military, not just being briefed on it, but recommending each other receive these briefings. And I reached out through all the normal channels through the Pentagon and said, hey, can we hear from somebody?

You know, for me, it's not about finding out UFO information, although I think that would be interesting. It's more about just kind of the relationship of the reason the press is supposed to exist, the whole principles of how democracy is supposed to function in which the public, you know, the government functions on the consent, the public, but that's implied consent. And so in order for people to make, or excuse me, it's informed consent in that they need to be informed. And so I clearly you've got all the evidence. This is a serious issue. It's being treated as such. Yet, how can people make an informed decision to their

leaders? Like MJ said earlier, either A, this is something that's serious and needs to be examined, and we need to be talking about it. Or B, there's a lot of high-ranking people that are running our government who are in control of weapons of mass destruction who are batshit crazy. Either option is significant. We need to know about as a public. And so that kind of sent me down this path once I was told that by the Pentagon, yeah, we're not talking about anything. To start tracking down anything and everything I could and talk to people just to get an

idea of, you know, what is this task force? You know, it's being acknowledged. What are they doing? Is it just the water cooler club? Is it something that's officially going on? Are they working on anything? Are they doing anything? Are they producing product?

And that's where it led us to these kind of revelations that, indeed, they are doing work to the point where they're disseminating very significant intelligence reports that are being distributed widely throughout the intelligence community. just in my opinion in dealing with this topic, you know, in a manner that is consistent with serious topics that are taken serious, serious intelligence matters, or whether you know, anything you want to think of, whether it's terrorism or anything, very similar manner. And this is going out into the intelligence community so that people can be aware of it, so they can be on the lookout for it.

You know, other analysts can try to put clues together. And it ultimately kind of facilitates these analyst networks where they're like, oh, now I'll be on the lookout for this as I'm examining whatever my job is. Fascinating. You know, fascinating. There was that much level going on there. And for me, I mean, so there was the two reports that we mentioned that have been issued and widely distributed. The first one, you know, and the first one I was told was kind of pedestrian. You know, I mean, it was just kind of a, hey, guys, this is serious.

we need to look into this. Here's kind of a brief overview of what's going on. And that's the one that included the photo that we released today, which of itself, I think like MJ said, it's not, you know, it's something, you know, and I think we all said it looked like a balloon. Now, obviously, you know, when I spoke to people who had read the report, they're very responsibly describing it because I want to make abundantly. clear, you know, these are, these are information that is shared on classified systems.

You know, the photograph that we shared today was, was unclassified, official use only. But those reports were classified, and they were very responsible. So do I have all the details that made them to say that that was an unidentified era phenomena? No, I don't. They did. But that was some of the things relayed to me is that, you know, I asked people who had read it. And I said, well, do you think that the report like this would have gone out if this was a balloon? And they were, you know, no. And that's just based on the process as it goes into these type of reports where they're, they have to be signed off on approved. I mean, there's a lot of layers.

It's not like some random one person's like, hey, I'm going to type this up and throw it out. And it's not a chain mail type email. It's a very formal process. But, you know, there wasn't anything in that first report that seemed to really blow everybody's socks off. But the second report that we found out about that came out in late summer, September this year, for me, was a lot more substantial. You know, obviously there was everyone I spoke to mentioned, you know, the triangle photo. I mean, that was the first thing. It was being widely discussed throughout the intelligence community.

that everybody was excited about this, that this photo was crystal clear and clearly showed an object that nobody seemed to be able to identify. For me, the biggest takeaway was the fact that that second report was all about the USOs or transmedium vehicles, which is where the title comes from, fast movers and transmedium vehicles. And it was the idea that this task force is starting to look at what's going on underneath the oceans.

And that's, you know, that brings up a whole new can of worms for me. And in fact, you know, we discussed this person amongst ourselves going, you know, we very literally know more about the planets in our solar system and map them and know all the contours than we do our own oceans, you know, by considerable margin. And so you start thinking of that, it makes the topic, I don't know, frightening is the right word, but you realize, hold on, wait. a minute, it's not coming and going. It's here. You know, and it, wait, what's going on here? And so, you know, nobody said, even in that report that there was any, there had any real

conclusion had been come to. But this was definitely somewhere that they were looking at. And in exploring that side, frankly, was fascinating. And I think we'll, that's something I want to do a lot more of. I think we already plan on maybe trying to really put together something that that gives everybody else to like, what is a U.S.O and what's been going on? Because I realize this is kind of an untapped area here. You know, there are some stuff. But it's not as prevalent as you think about in the sky. And a lot of questions there.

Like how many reports do we not know about? Right. Well, and also, Tim, I think, keep in mind that a lot of what we're getting public information now comes from the Navy. And now maybe we're starting to understand why that a lot of this has to do more with what could be on our planet, like you said, than what's in our skies. And also why, you know, the Navy is getting in touch with the Air Force, like in these reports and these emails that you disclose to the public is, yeah, we're not just dealing with potential threats in our skies. And we've been hearing this for years now from people like Luis Elizondo and, you know, former Navy. intelligence officials and whatnot. So yeah, do MJ or Micah, do you have anything to add to this prevalent thing right now with the USOs and what you're reporting on? Yes, I certainly do. The issue

at the USOs is something that certainly has, you know, been addressed in UFO literature. It's not surprising that it's, you know, kind of based on terms of reporting, you know, it appears to be something that is kind of taking center stage with current efforts and inquiries on behalf of the UAP task force. With regard to, you. to the USO as they are referred to often. Again, this merely referring to UFOs or UFO-like, UAP-like phenomena that also seems to be as capable of traversing water and going into water, coming out of water, it's as operable within an aqueous environment as it is in the air, which raises a lot of questions. But again, we can go back to the Blue Book reports.

There were a number of reports of objects emerging from oceans, especially during the Blue Book years. And those were cataloged, you know, and in fact, can still be read online to this. day. There is also, there was a book at least back in the 1970s, authored by Ivan Sanderson, best known again as a zoologist with an interest in the unexplained, and at times maybe also, you know, a little more speculative with his approach than the scientists of today. He was better known, I think, for other things that he wrote about, but he certainly wrote a book and probably maybe, I would say, the first significant book that looked at the idea of submersible UFO-type phenomena that entering, come out of the,

the oceans. And, you know, again, the interesting thing about all of this is that in the modern dialogue, many people, and we see this all the time, this could just be our stuff. This is somebody's technology. It's ours. Maybe Russia or China. You can go back to the early 1960s. You know, look at the very first CIA director, right? Hillen-Cotter talking about the fact that I see no evidence that the phenomena that we're observing is a Soviet technology. He was saying that back in the 1960s and about his experience observing objects that do exactly what we're talking about here, this transmitting kind of technology, as Tim reports on in his article. He's reporting about this going back to the beginning of the UFO era in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

And I think that it's important to illustrate if we're going to talk about UAP. And again, the debrief covers a whole lot more than that, but obviously we are interested in that, and that's kind of the tie that binds in terms of all of our backgrounds. If we're going to talk about that, though, something that has to be addressed is the historical aspect of the phenomenon, which, you know, Ryan, you and I've talked an awful lot about on the show in the past. And again, if one really looks at the history of the phenomenon and looks at the history of developments in relation to our perception as human, as civilization, you know, of some sort of a phenomena, a technological component that we can't identify, it's hard to ignore that this same phenomena that we're observing today, which the Pentagon has taken interest in, which the Navy's task force is currently looking at, very similar descriptions were being offered decades ago, more than half a century. ago, which describe a number of the same sorts of vehicles, a number of the same sorts of behavior, including the U.S.O. component. And essentially, there's tremendous continuity that

must be addressed in order to understand, I think, the proper context in which we can frame the debate and how we try to address it. So again, I'm very glad to see that the current analysis that we're, you know, seeing with the task forces, Tim reported on Fantastic in his article. You know, I'm very glad to see that that's being addressed because this is something that I think many people who are historians of this phenomenon have long known about, and it really deserves more attention as we proceed with our knowledge about the phenomenon. Absolutely. And for anyone watching, the men in black did get MJ. He's gone. He was the first to leave debrief officially. No, MJ is working right now. So thank you, MJ, for joining us. Brother,

I know you had to get back to work. Always love to get his insight on all of this as well. So thank you, MJ. But to continue with both you guys, guys, in terms of the transmedium aspect to this article is something I find absolutely fascinating. We know within ATIP, they looked at this within the five observables, as they have coined it. And you even included the Aguadilla, Puerto Rico video within the embedded into your article. So I'd love to get your guys takes on that whole aspect of all of this. you know, maybe that's why the Air Force is talking to the Navy about these things, because they're starting in space, they're coming to the sky, they're going into the ocean,

they're going somewhere else. I mean, this is insane. I mean, any tech that we know about in the public, could it do something like that in your guys, you know, educated opinions, I guess? Well, you know, in my educated opinion, no, but I spent a lot of time asking. I mean, that's one of the important things for us. and I think MJ mentioned it earlier, is just to try to responsibly and maturely report on this stuff. And so not editorialize, although there are times when we make print opinion pieces,

but we're going to clearly indicate that. But something like this, I don't profess to be an aerospace expert. I'm not an aerospace engineer. But it's important for us to try to talk to those people that are. And, you know, I did speak to, you know, probably one of the leading experts in drone technology that helps put out the annual drone forecast report every year. And, you know, he was very pointed at it when he said, you know, when I asked, are you aware of anything that is capable of, quote, transmitting,

where they can go in and out of the water seamlessly. And so, you know, there are some smaller systems that are designed for like tube launched drones, which are all, you know, not operational to our knowledge, but we know that there's prototypes of these. But these are not what was being described, and they're sure not, you know, large scale size, where technically you could have an operator fit inside, that are being described in these encounters, or as Micah brought out, that are by no means recent, you know, we were able to track down just a ton of reports, very similar, going way back to the 50s. You know, there's one that I have and like I said I think that we me and Michael will team up and kind of put together a nice U.S.O. Primer piece for anybody. But I mean, there's some that we could find going all by back to the 30s, the 20s before the quote, flying saucer craze of 1947. So there's nothing to account for that technology back then. There's nothing now. I don't have a good explanation. I think that's the thing that's really interesting. And as a

thing is we're just reporting on this and we're, maybe some people even maybe since frustration wouldn't be the right word, but just maybe exasperation at the end of my article where, you know, I spoke to Brigadier General, Bruce McClintock. And, you know, I just kind of highlighted his background of experience, which took up a paragraph in it of itself, you know, Deputy Commander of Norat, Deputy Commander of Space Command, current head of Space Enterprises for Rand. But if you go to look at his DOD bio, which is still available, you look at that and go, wow. I mean, this was a gentleman who is rated on 35 different aircrafts, you know, over 3,000

hours. This is a guy who, you know, had a great career in the Air Force and somebody I feel like who is definitely much more qualified than me. And, you know, when I ask him, and what do you think? Because I know that, I mean, we should go down the checklist of the most likely or pragmatic. We know classified testing exists. We've got to examine that. And, you know, when I ask him, and he's just like, you know, A, the idea of testing it unwittingly on your own people is just the safety concerns that are involved, the amount of red tape that would have to sign off on that.

And I think people get lost on that. I think the idea and impression that a lot of people have of government is really loose and willy-nilly. And you kind of, well, the government can do whatever they want. There's a lot of red tape, a lot of bureaucracy in government. There's a rule for every rule. And so to get something like that approved, you know, he essentially felt like no one would even attempt it first and be no one would sign off on it. And frankly, from everybody I spoke to, and that's why I highlighted my interviews with Gene Petit and Kitty Barnes. In particular, Gene Petit, who is not a name a lot of people know, but that gentleman is really the grandfather of electronic warfare technology.

I mean, he's the guy who, what has become the real space that warfare is going into, where you're fighting computer systems rather than missiles, he's the one who invented that kind of stuff. These are people that should know. And when I'm asking them, you know, did you ever test stuff against your own people and they not know about it? And they're like, no. They may not have known what they were going up against. They may not have known who was the real agency providing the funding, who was backing it. But they always knew it was a test. And so I can't, couldn't, you know, that exasperation is like, all right, you know, I hear a lot of people on the internet.

I hear a lot of people with theories, well, it's got to be this. You know, people looking at patents and everything else. And I'm like, yeah, but I can't find anybody that's qualified that has the background and the expertise who's even hinting. Oh, yeah, that sounds likely. We could do that. And the same as General McClintock talked about, could this be foreign technology. And, you know, he brought up a very valid point that I think just in my own research and just understanding of military and defense, national security in general, the idea that a foreign adversary would be so brazen as to, you know, come in to protected airspace, fly over the continental U.S., fly in low proximity to civilian areas in the continental U.S., fly over nuclear weapons facilities, so brazenly and openly. there's very literally not a policy in response to that kind of ferreting that would be going on.

And it's just, A, why would you risk losing a technology that's that impressive by flying it unnecessarily like that? And, you know, why would you risk potential, you know, active war if this thing crashed into a residential neighborhood, you know, And so he pointed out, you know, very accurately, he's a retired Air Force General. He's not a retired Russian general. He's not a retired Chinese general. So he can't speak, you know, with absolute certainty. But it's very highly unlikely because you just wouldn't see that type of response. And I think he very accurately pointed it out that if somebody had that technology, if Russia had that technology,

we would be seeing these sightings in the Balkans near Poland, near Ukraine. It would be near their spaces. If it was China, you would see it in the South China Sea near Japan. At the end of the day, everything is developed in the defense world for a purpose. And so for these types of countries, unless there's just this giant expeditionary force that would plan to invade the continental United States, the idea of needing to ferret the American air defenses so intimately that you've got to fly over Bob and Sally's house in Omaha. It's just, why?

So it leaves us, and that's where I'm at. It's like, I don't know. You know, I don't have any evidence. It's aliens either. You know, I don't know what it is. And so it's a good mystery. And I think that's, I can see why it gets frustrating for people if you try to legitimately cover it and everything, because you're left in this weird space where you don't know.

and it's also a topic that I'll be honest with you. I only report on the kind of national security world. People get mad at, why are you trying to make this a threat? And I'm like, this is just a world that I'm comfortable with. So this is what I report on. It doesn't mean it's my personal beliefs. It doesn't mean that I'm like, you know, why? Because we need to get them and arm them and take over the world.

No. But outside of that space, and when you do hear some of these accounts and people who have done phenomenal research and everything, it's very difficult to stay at a nothing. in both's world. You know, I don't know, just recently I spoke with somebody who, who witnessed an identical shaped craft, identical down to a T is the triangle that was described in the photo of the second briefing. I mean, it's identical. And they were standing within a foot of somebody else, and they both saw it. And in real time, it passes over them at 100 feet. And you know, this person says it looked like it was white.

The person that's standing next to him says, no, it's black in real time. I don't have an explanation for that. Yeah. You know, I understand that like our memories could all be faulty. So, you know, that's for me when we talk about, can it, do we have any transmitting technology? I'm like, dude, we don't even, I don't see the intermediary blocks of being able to alter people's perception of color, transmedium, right,

degree turns, not, you know, not have sonic booms, an energy source that allows you to, because you've got to be able to power something. Like, I don't see any of those. And so I'm left going, well, I guess like half the world's either crazy or there's something else or I don't know. I don't know. Have you ever looked up to the skies and seen something you can't explain or walk deep in the forest and sensed something watching you?

Do you believe in an afterlife or a hidden veil that can communicate with the living? Then you need Shadows of Your Mind magazine. Download all issues completely free at shadowsmagizine.co.uk. Shadows of your mind, where your search for the answers begins. Some really important points. And I want to illustrate, by the way, his background, both in mathematics and also psychology. And I appreciate that perspective that he brings to this, you know, because fundamentally, And this is what I would argue even in the historical context when we're looking at UFOs.

I mean, what we're really talking about, I think, is the long-held human tradition of looking in the sky and seeing things we can identify and ascribing agency to that. And between the human and the perception therein and then the phenomena in the sky that's observed, I mean, there's a lot to still try and work out about this. Now, that's not to say that there's a technology behind observed phenomena that constitute what we call UFO report. It is simply to say, however, that like the tree falling in the woods, does it make a sound if nobody can hear it, if we're to get philosophical here for a moment? Is there such a thing as a UFO without a human observer? And so we certainly have to take that into consideration here. But, you know, to back up on a few of the points that Tim's raising right there, again, the idea, and this is an important one that he points out, the idea that an enemy, let's say that this was Russia or China or even some undenified or even a non-state actor of some kind, if you can imagine, any hypothetical, you know, hypothetical synestimate. that could account for UAP having earthly origins, right?

I think we also have to keep in mind that, like Tim is saying, there would be tremendous risks involved in terms of flying top secret aircraft or whatever kind of technology over enemy airspace. And it's not to say that it's never been done again with a U2. We did that. You know, we were flying over Russia. But at that time also it was the most sophisticated plane in terms of what it was doing in terms of intelligence gathering at the time.

You know, the Soviets didn't have aircraft that could fly. fly up high enough to intercept it, but one did eventually crash. And so the historical precedent said is, if you're going to fly over enemy territory, that aircraft can be brought down. You better have a good cover story. And you also better be able to, you know, have accountability in terms of the enemy capturing your technology. And even back in the 1940s and 50s, when it was first being discussed that there might be a phenomenon behind UAP, UFOs, as they were called at the time, You know, people in intelligence were looking at it at that time in saying we can almost certainly rule out of Soviet technology because it seems almost impossible that they would take such incredible risks flying this kind of, you know, technology over U.S. airspace, knowing that we might shoot them down and attempt to acquire the technology ourselves. So, you know, again, I think that history teaches us some lessons there.

And also on the U.S.O subject, Tim mentioned the famous Agua Di La Vida video, which was, I think that was leaked a few years ago. course, it's been studied by a number of organizations, including one of which I'm a part, which is the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies. And what a lot of people aren't aware of about that footage is that, of course, there were complementary FOIA requests made in relation to the video, which appears to show something. Now, some skeptics have tried to make the argument that this is just a seabird that's circling, and then it's diving down a pelican, basically landing on water. What most are probably unaware of about that is that the complementary FOIA request, indicated testimony from those that observe the object illuminated at the time it was first spotted.

And as it's coming in, there was a light. Now, again, unless pelicans are strapping lights, you know, to their beaks or what have you and flying in, you know, that's probably not what that is. And nonetheless, there has been the skeptical argument. And I'm fine with skeptical arguments. We need those. And, you know, Tim's had some great dialogue with skeptics like McWest and, you know, folks whose opinions actually I value a lot. But we have to look at all of the information and we have to take into account all of the descriptions on a case-for-case basis with these phenomena. In the case of the Aguadila video, which he linked in his article, as an example of potential transmitting phenomena or technology, again, if it had a light on it, it seems to strongly suggest that this was not a bird

or something of other natural origin. But what we do see is an object that is flying very quickly as it circles around, comes out over the ocean, and then goes down under the water and then resurfaces at least for a moment. So again, is that maybe an example of this so-called Transmedium technology? Yes, perhaps there's still a lot of questions about that. But again, if we look back throughout history, we have plenty of similar cases that seem to suggest that this has been around, and which equally, to me, I think, puts a fair amount of question behind the argument about whether we can safely define this as simply being an enemy technology or our own. And my fundamental takeaway is this. The dialogue today that's ongoing about this has changed very little

since the 1940s and the 1950s, and yet I will say, and not to use a pejorative sense of the word, but the mainstream media continually seems to overlook the historical aspect of this. If more people would look at that, I think that the continuity over the last several decades, at least perhaps earlier, as Tim even touched on, might become more apparent. Absolutely. And I think important to keep in mind, too, is why we are trying to move this UAP topic forward, we have to look at the past. Of course, always. And I think that's extremely important. And I guess kind of playing off of that. And I know, Tim, you have another interview to go to in a little while. So I'll try to get through a lot of these listener questions for you early on. But to kind of wrap up my section of

questions for you guys, the Pentagon. And there's person who a lot of us go through to get information from, uh, that, uh, is kind of the point person for a lot of this. You guys gave the Pentagon, the Navy,

several chances to comment on this article you were putting out. And they decided not to discuss any of it. And, um, I'd love to know, first and foremost, has there been any follow up or response from anyone within intelligence or Pentagon, Navy, military,

after you release this article. And also, do you think they even care that you release this? Is it kind of plausible deniability in their heads of, yeah, let them go do their little article and come up with scenarios and speculation and we're going to keep doing our thing. So, yeah, I know that's two pretty packed questions, but who wants to comment on that? Tim, why don't you go ahead?

Yeah, now, well, first of all, so let's unpack the first one. You know, did I get any feedback from the inside? Yes. And it was all positive. I'll tell you that, you know, I don't know how much of it leaked out beforehand that I was working on something, but some of it leaked out from the intelligence community. that a lot of people knew that I was working on this and were excited. And I don't mean just the UFO crowd.

I mean people whose jobs don't involve UFOs typically. And in fact, I was told, you know, people I don't even know that they were saying, man, all our neighbors in these communities in Virginia and around the D.C. area where everybody says they work at one place, but they really work somewhere else. They're all talking about it. But it wasn't bad. I think it's really fascinating because they were, you know, there was some excitement because there's very much legitimate interest inside an official government capacity. And there's very much

legitimately people currently working on this. And in fact, formal channels in place where analysts are able to discuss this and look at it. And so there was there was positive feedback. I'll just leave it at that in terms of from some very surprising places. Including. Yes. No, I mean, I can tell you that from elected leadership, there were elected leaders who saw the article that I was very surprised at. You know, potentially, I don't know, I haven't, I didn't talk to them personally, but potentially the upcoming president-elect Joe Biden. So, I mean, you're always, when you're like, wow, Joe Biden's seen this. You know, he puts you in perspective when you're writing on this stuff, too,

try to make it accurate because I was told the same thing about the Popper Mechanics article that Donald Trump Jr. had showed that article, that article got passed around and was on Senator Rubio's desk at one point. And so you're like, oh, my God, you know, geez, make sure, you know, that's why I yell at Micah, but when he takes so long to edit my stuff, I'm so happy, you know. But, well, I mean, to their point, it's a team operation and we all look out for you. Right. I think the important thing to keep in mind, too, is all three of you worked on this. I mean, I know a lot of the early legwork and research and everything, Tim, was all you.

But when it comes to the debrief and the fact that you're all responsible for what is on your site, I'm sure there was a lot of work between the three of you of how can we represent this the best we can? because, I mean, this thing is going to put a lot of eyes not just on the UAP topic, but the debrief in general, which I think is awesome. And to constantly stress that you guys aren't a UFO website, and a lot of what we're talking about with this UAP issue is not strictly, are there aliens, are we alone? There's so much more to it. And let me just point out too again.

No, no, I want to jump. I'm just kidding. I mean, we might have all helped, but I mean, this is Tim's R. article. This is Tim's reporting. I couldn't imagine somebody doing a finer job than he has, and it's not the first time. You know, and the publication on our platform, which we have launched. You know, he's written for a number of well-known publications, many of them with histories and science technology and the development of not only, you know, experimental technologies from over the years, but also, at times also touching on the UAP phenomenon, popular mechanics being one of those.

So again, you know, I mean, I think his reporting speaks for itself. And to me, the most important things in the new article. That is the one from yesterday. There's actually another one that came out since then. Actually, several articles have dropped at the website. Everybody go and look at them, but I mean, crash this right. Take it in time. Hold a ticket. Yeah. We need social distancing on the website right now, please. Yeah, really. Everyone get in line and just be patient. God. Yeah, well, I understand it. I'm thankful for all the attention. But again, you know, to Tim's credit, his hard work, I think, has really brought a lot of that attention. And what I hope that that will do is I hope that there will a lasting readership who finds merit and interest in what we're writing.

And I hope that they will continue to come back, but not just to look at the UAP stuff. Tim's first article that really got a lot of attention on the website was about consciousness. And Dr. John Joe McFadden, okay, I believe of East Surrey or was it East Anglia University, he's been working for a number of decades on consciousness and has a number of very interesting out-of-the-box kind of theories about that. you know, we've got articles about everything right now from the most recent statements by a former commander-in-chief, Barack Obama, in relation to UFOs. We're our good friend, Nick Pope, former Ministry of Defense investigator into that phenomenon. I actually was kind enough to provide his, you know, angle and his perspective on that and what that could mean or not.

But we've got Sest Shostak, as we mentioned with MJ's article, artificial intelligence, everything you can imagine, really, as it relates to science and technology, we hope people are going to come back and want to see all of that. as important as the UAP issue is. Right, right. And I think to kind of playing off of that with this big article that just came out, I'd love to get both of your opinions on what do you think was most important that came out of this specific article? I mean, for me, it's the fact that this is being discussed seriously within the intelligence communities. And it's an inside look at something that we've been pretty hesitant.

about and that's the UAP task force like are they even taking this thing seriously not only does it seem that way but the idea of this being an intelligence not from Russia not from China not from earth is still on the table for them is amazing you know for those who are true believers that we're dealing with an extraterrestrial intelligence with all this so um that for me was pretty big and just the fact that uh the ridicule factor and stigma seems to be dissipated each more and more each day. So that's me. What do you guys think as the purveyors of this article? Well, Tim, how about I jump in first? Because I know you'll have more to say. And really, it's his article and I want him to have the final word on that. Yeah. I'll just be brief. Again, first, I don't class myself as a true believer. I'm undecided on what the phenomenon might actually be. But the fact that it is as yet a topic for which there seems to be an abundance of evidence in support of its existence, but for which there remains no consensus about.

all the more bespeaks the necessity, in my opinion, for proper analysis. And yes, that will also have to include assessment of a threat potential. So, of course, the UAP task force is looking at this. That's an effort, which, of course, I know that we all support. I personally do. I'm very glad that there are members of our government that are very seriously looking at this and taking it seriously and that they are as intrigued by some of the possible implications as we are. But really quickly, my big takeaways from Tim's fine piece were, hey, you know, I mean, he managed to use the Freedom of Information Act, which I think is one of the most important tools, not only for, you know, Americans who are journalists and people who are reporting on these issues, but, you know, people in general, anybody can file a FOIA request. And many people who are not U.S. citizens file FOIA requests to the United States government. Transparency is a very important thing to us. And I think that it should be for every citizen, especially of the United States, especially in the current, you know, political. you know, scope of things right now in America. And, you know, Tim used that tool, which was granted to Americans. He obtained information from emails. He followed up. He did investigations. And then he spoke with a general from the U.S. Air Force on record who essentially said, speaking to the broader historical point, exactly what many who came before him have said. We don't have any clear read on what this

may represent. And nonetheless, there appears to be something worthy of study. And again, that to me, and I said this to Tim before we went to print with the article, that to me is so significant because not only what is said but what also was not said, there wasn't any clear determination, there wasn't any buzz off kid, it's just this or that. They seem to be genuinely perplexed. That in itself is very important to me. Tim, what do you have? I got to follow up Dr. King again.

No, and first of all, before I even get into that, you know, I just want to make sure that it is abundantly clear. I appreciate everything Micah said, but like you mentioned, Ryan, it's truly a team effort. And people don't realize, even with this last article that I put out, how much MJ and Micah do. And I am so incredibly thankful for the relationships we have. I'm glad, you know, I couldn't have better teammates because they deal with me. You know, I can be, people know, and I know, I know, I realize it. I can be a hothead sometimes. And we have a real brotherly relationship where, you know, they keep me grounded and it's like, well, Tim, you know, make sure we do this and this. And, you know, I can be like, you, all right, no, let's go to print.

But they make sure we put out quality stuff. And it's really important. And, you know, for me, the biggest takeaway of this article, I think, just to follow up in Mike has said, is I've been very impressed, especially once we kind of find out about these, these intelligence reports, the quality of work that is being conducted by the current task force. You know, I think that everybody, well, is it just some, you know, like I said, some slap shot operation. I didn't, I drop the quote because I feel like there's only so much you can give, you know, me and Mike had talked about this earlier, and I get, understand and would never ask anybody

just trust me blindly. And, you know, there's times when we have to report our I have to make the decision. and am I going to not report this or am I going to report this? But in order to report this, I can't name who this person is because they work in a position where in some instances, A, it could cost them their job. You know, B, could cost them their entire career because it may be in positions or agencies where their name can't be out there, you know, because of the work they do. And so, do we not report on this or do we report on it?

And we had this, you know, good discussion where I said, you know, in this battle space and world, you don't have a lot of options other than just not reporting on it because you're not able to get the information is inherently classified by design. It is secret and for good reason in most cases. But at the same time, we have a responsibility as purveyors of information to the public to try to report on it responsibly as much as we can and not just throw our hands up because that's how the system's supposed to work. You know, intelligence isn't infallible.

And we've seen stuff like weapons and mass destruction and everything else, where it's important that the public has some input of what's going on responsibly. And so we're not going to just throw our hands up and we'll try to present it the best way we can. But for me, I think a lot of the takeaways was I was impressed by how much is going on. To me, it was indicative of a real operation. It was indicative of there are evidence besides just the photo we published today or, frankly, the triangle photo that we were told about. And, you know, that they believe this is a serious issue. And I kind of maybe it gets glossed over in those articles.

But when I mentioned that, you know, I was told that the best intel they have is Mason measurement and signals data. That's really significant because those are the parts everybody wants. That's the nitty gritties. That's the, you know, the stuff that makes McWest shit his pants because you're like, oh, God, there goes the data. You know, what do you do? But you have to respect at the same time. These are systems that aren't designed to hunt UFOs. They're designed for national security purposes.

And especially, you know, it was a bittersweet. The water idea opens up a whole new world. And I think it opens up a whole new research world for the, for UFO researchers, which I totally encourage because I want to make sure everybody knows. like we're going to continue to do what we do and report on it, but we're not going to be analyzing videos. We're not going to be going out there hunting in the field. That's not our job. You know, that's, there's a lot of great people to do that. And I look forward to that. And I think a lot of information can be gleaned by that. But when I heard, you know, the underwater stuff, you mean, like I had these conversations, I was like, shit, because I know, like this is, you know,

you know that the B-21 Raiders in development. We've seen it. You know that the RQ-170 and the RQ-180, these new drones. You know, they're there, and hints and whispers. You know the nuclear sub that was designed in the 80s. You know, there's some stuff that's come in between that, but it's very easy to hide stuff underwater. And it is a very, to some extent, sterile environment in which, if you don't have a nuclear submarine, you're not able to figure this stuff out.

And so the average public doesn't have those opportunities. And so you're like, gosh, getting data out of there is going to be very difficult. And potentially, that's where the best, data lies because they don't have to, you know, nobody's hoaxing anything down, you know, under the ocean. And so it's very fascinating. I think where I see it going with that once I saw that, even though you didn't answer that, I'm just going to answer it anyway. I don't know. It'll be interesting, but I think we won't see anything definitive. I think what people keep talking about, disclosures on the way and everything. I haven't seen.

the hint that the government has actionable intelligence that can mitigate a threat if need be. And that's going to have to come about before you're going to see anybody step forward and say, all right, guys. But if your idea of, quote, disclosure or acknowledgement is that there's some weird stuff out here that some of the most sophisticated systems in the world still don't know. Well, then, yeah, you've got that. I think, you know, the government's giving you that publicly. with videos and everything, you know, I hope so. But is also frightening.

If they don't know and they have all of that, I mean, friend, what are we going to do? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, disclosure is a process. I mean, I can't stress that enough. We're never going to get this huge drop that we've been, you know, hoping for for 70 plus years. It's just not going to happen in my personal opinion, but I could be wrong. But I guess kind of playing off of that guys in terms of,

of what you were told, Tim, what made this article, and also these photos that are gradually coming out and whatnot. Little conspiratorial, do we think any of this could be disinformation? Were these things planted to kind of muddy the waters and keep us away or make us look into the ocean while the Air Force takes control of the UAP Task Force and does their thing in the shadows? Like, I don't know.

Is that even a possibility? What do you guys think? Listen, everything's a possibility till it's not. I would say it's unprecedented. And that's the thing because you would have to be, the target of the disinformation would be your own people and your own intelligence community, your own analyst who, again, you know,

a thousand of analysts who their job isn't UFOs. And, you know, their job is a whole bunch of other areas that relate to national defense. And so where's the purpose of disinforming them? And just so we're clear, we've reported everything that, you know, that was offered to us that was within the individuals who were willing to discuss details. And we had a number of others who were like, yes, that's true. I can confirm that, but I'm not telling you anything else.

I mean, these were from different agencies, different backgrounds and areas. So the kind of nature that you would have to spread out there. And in fact, I didn't expressly say this in that article, but I did notice some very savvy. I swear the, the UNFO community are some of the best investigators I've ever seen, though. They're damn good open source investigators. Picked on very quickly that when I mentioned that there were some individuals

that said they saw this on NSANet, which is the internet network between the national security agency. They very quickly went, ooh, wait. And then maybe they Wikipedia. and realize this network is connected with the five eyes, which is Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United Kingdom and the U.S. That means this went to other foreign governments. And so the span of people, so you have to go, what are you disinforming?

You know, like, why would you disinform your own people? You know, can they be wrong? Sure. Can that image that was put in that first report be a balloon? maybe, you know, I don't know. I wouldn't even given all the specifics behind it. It definitely looks like it. But what I think that they would knowingly intentionally put out a picture of balloon,

you know, I don't know how you would get it through those levels of checks and balances before it went that far. And I don't know where anybody would like, ah, we got them. We got the whole, because you depend. This is the communities you depend to defend you. These are the people who they don't, they're unsung heroes, but it's the reason why, you know, we haven't had a tragedy like 9-11 cents because they've been successful when they do. And so, you know, I respect and appreciate that. I guess my view on that, and I've told people, I come from a different background. I come from big military family who are in kind of the defense intelligence world.

I see a different picture of them. They're not sinister. They're just people. But I do know where disinfo comes in. It's not on their own people. It's not on their own public. You know, it's the kind of propaganda you're used to, but it's the armed forces network that goes out to the foreign countries that tries to make Erica look really good. You know, we can debate that.

But in terms of this, you know, it just, as it grows, I sit here and go, I mention this to Micah. If anybody's ever had a problem with their IRS, you know, statements or, you know, anything in the federal government period. My wife's a school teacher for the DOD, so I get a lot of DOD. I don't know where the hell they're hiding the efficiency for a massive conspiracy like that. Like, where is that hiding? And to grow to this length to now you've got military pilots involved. You've got political leaders.

You've got all of this. So no, I just don't believe that there's any massive. disinformation or cover-up campaign. They can be wrong. It can be a bad analysis for some reason. You know, it could be a lot of things, but I don't, purposely deceiving anybody. That's just my opinion, you know, but I'll get called a disinfo agent

as soon as we get off the air. I see the dirty bastard so. You know, it is fair to point out a lot of the, a lot of what informs the suspicions of, you know, whether it's the UFO community or people in general, it's a couple of things. you know, humans, we've evolved to be very good at spotting patterns. And we often look for patterns where there are none, where none exist, but we try to find

them anyway. That has aided us in survival since time immemorial. And no doubt it continues to, to this day. But we also have to remember that great scientific tenet that, you know, again, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. That's the psychological side of things. But if we look at historical precedent, yet again, the UFO community, for instance, would not be wrong to be suspicious at times on account of the fact that there is such precedent for this information. And again, you know, one can go back. You can read, for instance, Gerald Haynes, fantastic history there at CIA.gov about what was one, you know, once unknown about the CIA's involvement in UFO research and investigations. Now, I can't say they were actively involved in

studying the phenomena trying to, you know, analyze it and understand it. The CIA being an intelligence agency fundamentally was interested in a couple of things. They wanted to, they thought it was initially very, very unlikely that there was even anything through UFOs, but they said if there's a one in a 10,000 chance that there is a there there, it is our job to look at that seriously. And so when the CIA was involved in terms of monitoring what the U.S. Air Force with their project Blue Book, and depending on when they became involved, that might have also extended back further to sign and grudge as well the projects that preceded Blue Book. But again, what they were aimed at trying to do was to make sure there wasn't a there there or if there was how we could

mitigate threats that might originate from that to to study the U.S. Air Force and what they were involved with. And yes, the CIA was also involved in terms of trying to understand how knowledge of or at very least public perception of the UFO phenomenon might be useful in everything from, again, you might just say counterintelligence operations, you might say psychological warfare. I think that they had some of those things in mind and those terms do come up in those. histories that only years later were published. And what they actually show is that at one time, the general public had not been aware of the involvement by the CIA, that information doesn't come out until much later. But again, Haynes says in his own historical article there, that once this

information came out and even beforehand, this greatly contributed to the idea of there being a conspiracy or there being some sort of a secret involvement. And the CIA was really the kind of architects of blue book from behind the scenes. I mean, there was a lot of speculation about that over the years. And he said that these very factors certainly played into that. Now, you know, speed ahead to the 1980s and the famous tragic case of Paul Benowitz and the fact that a guy who had actually picked up on secret tests the NSA was doing out there at Curtland Air Force Base was misled to believe that there was an alien component behind this. And he lost his mind, you know. I mean, again, there was a fantastic film based on a book by my friend Mark Pilkington called Mirage Men that was written about this.

So is there historical precedent for that kind of a thing? Yes, which really, and this is not to, you know, condone it, nor is it necessarily to condemn it, although, you know, again, as a transparency advocate, I'm uncomfortable with those kind of things happening and the reality that such things have happened. But I will say that intelligence services, no doubt at times have probably proceeded in the interest of what they felt was best for national security. The sad thing is when there are casualties like Benowitz was. And so, again, I don't think that the UFO community is wrong to speculate about those kinds of things. But what makes the current environment different? You know, presently what we have is we have, you know, not documents just being dumped, you know, and appearing on microfilm on somebody's doorstep.

And then later being analyzed and shown to be fakes like the MJ12 documents, which some people continue to maintain our actual documents. You know, again, the majority of researchers, myself included, I know Tim would, you know, agree, think that the preponderance of evidence shows that those are not legitimate documents. But again, that is one way of getting information that's bad information in which indeed may actually have origins intended to, you know, stir the pot or maybe actually mislead the public. In some regards, one might argue that they were successful in doing that, or at least in terms of sowing the seeds of confusion. You know, the difference with what's going on today is that there aren't just documents appearing on somebody's doorstep. You've got Tim, you know,

using the Freedom of Information Act or myself doing it, or M.J. Benayas, and other people outside of, you know, what we're doing with the debrief, who are all working as journalists to try and get information from outside. Again, you know, if I could throw out names like Brett Tingley, a good friend of ours, very good friend of ours. Tireogawa, also a very good friend of ours. We mentioned Tom Rogan earlier. A lot of people who were involved from the journalistic side of things, you know, upholding the fourth estate and hoping to try and aid in that doing its job, it's, you know, best function. And again, I don't aspire to be some great. writer, journalist, you know, or anything like that. But I do know the things that are valuable to me in which I think should be held up as values for not just Americans, but for people who are, you know, truth-loving, you know, freedom-loving individuals. This is a very different thing. So it's not wrong to speculate about those things. Yes, there's historical precedent for it and an abundance of it. And I would argue that people need to get out there and really, you know, read up on just how much of that there is. But I think that there are things that clearly define what's happening right now. And again, from what I've seen so far, based on the current information,

based on Tim's reporting, I feel that it's important for the UAP task force to do their job and to be looking at what they're looking at. I'm to an extent comforted and also I think a bit thrilled by that. And I think these are certainly exciting times. Absolutely. And I mean, citizen journalism right now with this topic in particular, UAPs is in a really good place. And Mike, I think you can agree with me. You know, we've seen some shoddy stuff throughout the years when it comes to this topic and how it's treated in the mainstream, who's writing about it. But I mean, stuff like what you're doing with Debrief and other journalists out there, Adam Kehoe comes to mind. He was my guest last week on the show. Just incredible work being done in a legitimate way that we have not

really seen. So, I mean, I agree. I think it's exciting. And also, the fact that, like Tim mentioned, the UFO community is tenacious AF. If they want information, they'll either speculate beyond comprehension, or they will go looking for it. And they have been successful in many ways, Tim, yourself included. So, I mean, it's just, I'm excited to see where this is all heading. And I think it's really, really awesome. But then we always have to be careful of are we, you know, being disinformed and stuff like

Benowitz. We need a movie. We need a movie of the Paul Benowitz affair. hint, hint, I won't say anymore. But moving along, I do want to kind of wrap things up, guys, because I know Tim, you have another interview you're going to as well. But we have some questions about debrief and where it's all heading. And I'd like to know, actually a lot of us would like to know, let's see,

Jen M included on Facebook asks, will there be any sort of like forum or Discord or anything like that where people can come together to kind of, you know, talk about the debrief and stuff to cover. Yeah, anything like that in the works. I don't know if we have anything immediately in the works. And, you know, we're always interested in further dialogue on these sorts of things. And of course, always from hearing from people. And we do have contact, you know, capacities on the website where people can reach out to us.

We've already heard from a number of fantastic people out there. That's certainly something to entertain, though, because, you know, dialogue, I think, is important about all of this. Tim, are you okay on time, by the way? Yeah, I'm about to have to run, and so I'll just say this and then I've got to run. Yeah, absolutely. But no, I mean, I would just say that there is a number of things that we want to do with this out of it. And, I mean, that are in the works and in play. You know, we wanted to go ahead and get it launched.

We wanted to get it out there. You know, we had a lot we wanted to say. There's a lot of articles we wanted to do. And to some extent, we're still working out some kinks. But in terms of what we want to do, we have plans of growth. The idea of, like you said, a discord or some type of, you know, debrief community type deal where people can have conversations is definitely something I think is worth entertaining. There's a lot of things in place. So this is just the early stages.

And, you know, we'll keep growing it. The goal is to put out quality content. and we welcome the criticism and, you know, we embrace it. We'll continue to try to do the best that we do, you know, and that's all we can do. But yeah, I mean, I just say, stay tuned with us. And I like hearing that ideas because at the end of the day, we want to put out stuff for people, for all the things we said to inspire people, not just for UFOs, but I've always said, if the kid who's in school right now is inspired by UFOs and we don't find anything but UFOs,

but he figures out how to get us the hell out in the space. That's awesome. Yeah. I always say, I wanted to be aliens because I want to travel. If they can do it, I want to do it. Yeah, Tim and I are going to go hang out on the moon. That's what we really want to involve us. You know, we just want the technology.

Thank you. Hey, maybe you can hit your ride with China. They seem to be doing some pretty awesome stuff up there right now. So who knows, who knows. Excellent. All right, I got to go live in two minutes to bat now. Absolutely, Tim. Thank you so much, brother.

Thanks for joining us, man. Michael, we'll end things here with a couple more questions, but take care too. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much, man. Take care, man. Godspeed. Awesome, my man. Again, just you and I. And we're down to the two of us. Let's get us full screen here. There we go. I know they're dropping like flies. No, you guys are super busy. You dropped a bombshell again today.

So everyone's doing the interview rounds, which is awesome. But I mean, Micah, for the person who, I know was kind of the creator, the God behind the debrief, as it were. I got to ask, brother, a lot of people want to know, can we expect maybe a podcast in the future with the

debrief? Or is this pure speculation and hope on my part? It's not pure speculation. I already produce so many shows. But to that point, a couple of things.

First, as you mentioned, MJ joked in the chat the other day. I think he called me the creator of all things. Because, you know, this is a very homespun effort right now. There are a lot of people and everything from technology, you know, to industry and whatnot, you know, who we've talked with. A lot of friends in the UFO community who we've spoken with. But, you know, as of the time of launch, you know, I mean, everyone has aspirations, goals, things they want to do, areas they want to stretch out into, podcasting, being some of that. I even was, you know, getting requests from people, you know, wanting to know, who's funding an operation like this? And I guess it was kind of flattering to me that people would

look at what we're doing and that they would say, you know, this looks like a real big operation. For the time being, it's Tim, MJ and I. There's been a lot of speculation about how it came to be. I mean, I think people like mysteries. The truth is, and Ryan, you know this because we've talked about it. I had an idea a little more than a year ago. You know, the name came to mind. A domain was purchased. A very excited phone call was made to Tim McMillan, who was very kind and, you know, indulged me interrupting his evening with his family while he was still in Savannah, Georgia. You know, his wife hadn't taken the job and the opportunity for them to go to Germany at that time, which yet again, people have read way too much into, you know, I've seen online a lot of speculation.

You know, who is this guy, convenient that his wife works for the DOD? you know, people have endlessly speculated about, you know, where did he come from and how did he get into the UFO thing? I've told people, if you just go back in the archives in my podcast, archives, you know, Tim was what was it, I think, February of 2019 when he's still for a civil rights firm, he was a civil rights investigator in Savannah, Georgia, came on my podcast. We talked about like psychology and a bunch of stuff like that, you know, and, you know, missing person cases, things like that. I think at the very end, I asked him, you know, what do you think about UFOs? And he told me about a personal. observation that he, while in service as a law enforcement officer at the time that he'd actually had. So he certainly had an interest in UFOs, but I mean, you know, we became friends. He reached out, I think initially to me about the archaeological work I do. And so I think it's fair to say that,

you know, this endeavor is built on a friendship. And yeah, I called him up after we were many months into that friendship. And we talked, you know, and said, you know, we could really do something. But of course, you know, you and I always loved UFOs and I still do. Although that's not the main of the debrief, of course, I had that in mind early on, and I got to hand it to Brother Tim. He had been the very one who had said, you know, I think, however, that there are a lot of other things that we could touch on and should touch on with a medium like this. And it was several months before, you know, we really began to formalize things right after my birthday this year. In fact, quarantine was already underway. Tim and I've been having, actually, on my birthday,

been having a really great conversation on the telephone, just catching up. And I think I'd lamented at one point, you know, all the things that we want to talk about, all the things we want to report on, you know, our interest in current developments with UAP and things like that. And then he called me back two days later and said, you know, what would you think about we really get to work on this, you know, because right now, despite the craziness of the pandemic, might be a really good time. And that's when he got MJ involved, you know, M.J. who is, you know, absolutely helped us steer this ship. And at that point, I got to say, we might have had an idea already, but at that point, that's when it really became a thing and began to really move forward

between the three of us. And here we are today. But again, you know, I'm flattered by the perception that there's some tremendous operation. We certainly have had some fine contributions. I believe Ryan Sprague has been a contributor for some content, and I hope you'll continue to in the future. And we've definitely had love, support and contributions from fantastic people in the community. But it's very much a self-funded, self, you know, home-built operation. We're incredibly proud of that. And we hope to do good things with it. But yes, about a podcast, I won't put anything off the table. I'll never say never. And again, you know, usually throughout the week, Tim and MJ and I are on several calls anyway. So, although it was fun when we initially dropped the information about the debrief, I was getting, you know, emails and tweets from people, congrats on the new podcast. And I thought, we never. It was a podcast. And, you know, again, I guess people have kind of come to expect that from me. So a lot of people kind of presumed. And unfortunately, there were also folks who were just saying,

oh, this is just going to be another dumb podcast. I hope that we've done a little to set those concerns aside. Yeah, I would say you have for sure. And also what you guys are capable of at the level that we should expect and the standards we should say when it comes to UAP and technology and space in science and everything in between. So I guess leaving with a science question. Our last listener question, Micah, before you give us the links and everything, is from our good, good friend journalist, Jazz Shaw.

And he wants to know, Micah, where is the stable element 115 supply? And when will the debrief be bringing that to the public? Well, that's a good question, Jazz. But he probably has more information about that than I do with all his connections, with the intelligence community. And, you know, I hear he's got a summer home, kind of a time share that he and Bob Lazar share and that from time to time they both go there.

So, but, you know, I look, you know, here's the whole thing. Bob Lazar's story has obviously interested me over the years. I can't tell you if, you know, it's true or not. I have certain days of the week where I look at all this and I kind of, you know, my brother Brett Tingley and I often talk about this. and actually early on I think really Tim McMillan and I also talked about this a lot. I remember Tim and I having a conversation on the phone where we were kind of saying, you know, if you could get to the bottom of the UFO thing and really prove its origins, which must be here on Earth.

You know, this is our technology or somebody's here. I mean, you know, this would be the story of the century. And then you get into it a little and you kind of begin to realize that, I mean, nothing is often. table again, I would say that that could certainly be a possibility, but you get to a point where it becomes far more difficult to entertain a possibility like that based on the weight of the evidence. I mean, I'm far more comfortable with the UAP, UFO kind of thing, just saying, I don't know what it is, but I think we need to be careful as we learn about it not to try and make it fit into one box or another, right? Like I mentioned, you know, Brett Tingley and I have talked about this.

And again, he is one of the best reporters in my opinion on the aerospace and defense side of this. You know, it was fantastic writing from over there at the war zone. You know, Tim's also contributed over there. But, you know, again, at the end of the day, can I say it's necessarily something from here? I can't. So how does that deal with, you know, how does that relate to Bob Lazar? Again, those other days of the week I wake up and I ask myself, what if it's all true? You know, what if?

what if as crazy a proposition is that might seem to some people, myself included, again, but someone who has looked at the history of this and how every few decades the argument comes back, there appears to be a phenomenon that we can't identify. Could this be Russia? I mean, it's so laughably predictable. The way that every point almost on cue, you know, so easily anticipated, every one of those points, just shows up on the stage right when they're supposed to. And every few years, there's a clock reset, and it all starts again.

And here we are, yet again, more than a half a century after it all began. Well, we've got a phenomena here. And our best technology can detect it. Again, I'm talking about the Raytheon-Atflare targeting pod. People would say, well, we didn't have that decades ago. No, we didn't. But right after the Second World War, we did have a brand new technology called radar, right? you know, we had the capability, this innovated during wartime, as many great innovations are, right, during the perils of war.

We were able, for the first time, probably to detect something which very well could have been. This is speculation, but it could have been around for a long time. So again, I would say that the corollary there is that at that time, new technology brought to our attention something that we couldn't identify it. We speculate about whether it's Russia and ultimately come to the conclusion that, well, we don't know what it is. and if there is anything, it doesn't appear to be an immediate threat, so we're going to stop throwing taxpayer dollars at trying to get to the bottom of it. You know, I hope maybe the dialogue is pushed a little further down the field in the current context of things,

and that it won't just be another system reset and another repeat a few decades from now when the next big technology helps us a little better than before detect whatever that might be if there's a vet at all, certainly seems like it. And if there's one big takeaway from the whole Nimitz affair, you know, the Pentagon's three videos that were officially declassified earlier this year, and the use of instrumental capabilities that are new in this dialogue,

if there's anything that's, I think, important to be said about all that in the current state of the dialogue about this, it is that it's very difficult for me, particularly to look at Chad Underwood's footage, you know, related to the 2004 Nimitz incident. It's very difficult for me to look at that footage and say, yeah, that's probably just weather phenomenon, right? I mean, it may ultimately prove that one day we will have a simple explanation for this and we'll all look at it and go, how do we miss that? No, that is the scientific process. But what I don't want to see is us completely ignoring it because it seems so far out that we can't reconcile it in our current paradigmic thinking, right?

And so again, there are those days of the week that I wake up and I say, God, Element 115 and everything else. What if it is all true? But those things, as philosopher of science, Thomas Kuhn would have said, you know, those things are all in what we might call a pre-scientific stage of the development of our understanding of this idea. So again, I ain't saying it's aliens. Many people hope that it is. But I'm not a believer in that anymore than I'm a believer, right, in the idea of a Russian technology or a Chinese technology or atmospheric phenomena that can somehow miraculously take the appearance of a very advanced technological component that we can't identify. I don't believe what I do is I try to say in terms of science and in terms of, you know, responsible journalistic dialogue, how can we best frame something that apparently we don't

have full understanding of? That's really where we are. And I hope we can continue to progress in that regard. Absolutely, man. In every evolving mystery that we all just want answers to, and we want those answers all for separate reasons, which I think is beautiful. And like you said, I'm in the same way. I wake up every day changing my mind. And that's what's most important. And I think amazing about this thing. We can change our mind. That's allowed. And we're allowed to do that in a country where we have free speech to do so. So, hey, you know, I think that's amazing. I love the discourse going on both in the UFO world and beyond. And you guys are going to be a big part of that moving forward with the debrief. And, you know, just when we think we have an answer, the phenomenon always gets us. Thank you, James Fox.

Had to do a little plug there. But, Micah, please tell us, brother, where can we find everything you are personally up to and where can we find everything that the debrief is up to, brother? Oh, well, you know, the debrief isn't hard to find. A little right now, because it seems to be crashing every two minutes, but that is a good problem to have. I guess it is. You know, we've got some fantastic people who have, you know, again, been kind enough to help us and to give their time, you know, friends of ours, right? You know, who are coming in and saying, you know, let's, let's, you know, help us make the, you know, make it what it can be. And it is so tremendously humbling when you've got people who are so much better at, you know, the technical side of things like this than, you or I are who see the potential and want to do that.

And again, that is maybe the greatest gift that comes out of all this in addition to being able to work with people like Tim and MJ and yourself. I'll never forget. And I'll just say this and then I'll give that domain in other ways that they can reach us. But again, many years ago, I got an email. I think it was a message on Facebook from Ryan Sprague saying I'm writing an article for Open Minds magazine, you know, and you're an inspiration to me. And here you are in many ways with your shows, many years later, you know, kind of leading the discussion on this. you know, and helping to frame that debate. And so I appreciate you, too. And you're as much a part of that as any of the aforementioned names. I value that and I appreciate it. And I hope you'll continue to press on and do what you do very well. But thank you. Yeah, absolutely. That said, the debrief.org is where people can find us online. We're going to be reporting on a lot of things. Right now, again, I'm working very, I won't say a whole lot about all the stories I'm working on. Not all of them are related to UAP in any way, but AI, I will just kind of mention is a big,

component in one of my current investigations and one thing I'm working on. Tim and I are working on a piece together that will have to do with UAP and it's going to blow people's minds as it always does. And, you know, all of us are working on things right now for the site. We are on Twitter, debrief media. You can also find us on Facebook. There is a Facebook page. If you just go online, I think, and look for the debrief. You can find us there. You're welcome to reach out to us. We have a contact page there on the website and we're always happy to hear from people and interact with folks. Right now there's so much stuff going on over there on Twitter. It's hard to keep up with all of it, but we do try to, you know, keep tabs on what people are saying, what they, you know,

have to say their thoughts, you know, their feedback and we appreciate all that too. But again, the debrief.org, that's where you can find everything. For those who are interested, apart from all of that, if you want to look at me, what I do in my podcasts, you know, and also, you know, commentary on a wide range of things, not just UAP. Micahanks.com is the website. And, of course, I've got my podcast available there to at likeahahanks.com forward slash podcasts. Ryan, we'll have to get you back on sometime soon and continue this dialogue, man. Absolutely, brother.

I'd be honored. And again, my congratulations to the three of you. You created something that I think is truly going to contribute to this topic and the world in general. And I have to thank you guys for letting me be even a small fraction of that. And to everyone out there, the UFO Twitter community, the UFO community and beyond. Thank you for listening, watching, and give these guys your full support because we need them. And we're going to be in your corner, my man. So thank you for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies.

Thank you, MJ. Thank you, Tim. And we'll talk to you soon. I do. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.