Somewhere in the Skies - Getting LAMMY at Michigan UFO Con

Episode Date: October 28, 2019

On episode 132 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan returns to the Michigan UFO Con to bring you three very diverse interviews with some of the guests and speakers at the event. Joining him are Tim Woolworth, Eric Wojciechowski, and Cheryl Costa. It's a "Breakfast Club of UFOlogy" as the guests talk about UFO Disclosure, the problems with Ancient Alien Theory, UFO Data and patterns, Instrumental Trans-Communication with Aliens, and a glimpse in to the incredible story of Aleister Crowley and the being known as LAM. Grab your thinking caps, open your minds, and let's get Lammy at the Michigan UFO Con! Guest Bios: Tim Woolworth is with ITC voices and an expert in the field of ghost/spirit boxes. He has had an interest in the paranormal since he was a child, growing up researching and studying everything led him to Central New York Ghost Hunters where he was introduced to the Shack Hack by Stacey Jones, which led him to explore other boxes over the years. Tim is now with Motor City Ghost Hunters and Ghost Box Chronicler with ITC Voices. His work can be found at www.timwoolworth.com Eric Wojciechowski has a degree in psychology from Oakland University and writes essays and articles on religion, pseudoscience, and woo-woo. Published work can be found at American Atheists magazine, Skeptic magazine, Skeptical Inquirer and Free Inquiry. His 1997 article in Skeptic magazine examining claims of Zecharia Sitchin was chosen for inclusion in The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience. He has authored two novels which can found HERE Cheryl Costa is a native and resident of upstate New York who saw her first UFO at age 12. A military veteran, she’s a retired information security professional from the aerospace industry. She’s been a speaker at the International UFO Congress and at the MUFON Symposium. Cheryl writes the UFO column "New York Skies" for SyracuseNewTimes.com. Besides being a journalist, she’s also a published playwright. She holds a bachelor of arts degree from the State University of New York at Empire State College in entertainment writing. You can find her book HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Shop SAUCER BRAND now and use the promo code: SKIES for an exclusive discount: www.TheSaucerBrand.com Opening Theme... Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan Sprague. I have with me right now, Tim Woolworth, Tim. A lot of my audience might not be familiar with their work, man. I mean, this is a UFO podcast. So I was super excited to see your name pop up in the speakers list because I wanted to see what a guy from the paranormal world has to say about UFOs. So could you give our audience maybe a little elevator pitch as it were? Like, what's your origin story when it comes to the paranormal?

The origin story, it's kind of crazy. My mother is like this Uber Christian. I mean, Uber Christian. So growing up, she had books on ghosts and scrying and demonic possession and all this stuff on the wall because she wanted to be a better Christian. She wanted to know everything that she should protect herself from. But here I am this little impressionable kid, and I'm seeing these pictures of, these woodcuts of witches and images of ghosts and talk of demons and exorcisms. And I'm just devouring that stuff as a kid.

And that got my love, the juices flowing for the paranormal throughout my entire life. And also my stepfather, as I mentioned in the talk earlier, he's a conspiracy freak. Absolutely conspiracy freak. So I grew up watching the conspiracy side in videotapes as a kid of the late 70s, early 80s. And so I grew up watching like 20th generation VHS tapes of Bob Lazar's interviews because you couldn't get that stuff in New York. And the internet wasn't a thing. Right. So he had a network of people and back a magazine, stuff like that.

And he would get these tapes sent to him. So I grew up watching this stuff as well. So like the Phoenix lights, the lights in Florida, all that stuff I grew up with in real time. And euphology's always been there in my blood, as has been the paranormal. And a few years ago, I realized there was this crossover between the paranormal and euphology. Right. And before we go any further, you mentioned getting the juices flowing. I have to admit, you are one hell of a craft beer brewer, my man. Cheers to that.

What are we drinking? We are drinking a pumpkin ale that I named Baby Boo. The baby boo is actually a pumpkin. Is it really? Yeah. Okay. And this is a pumpkin ale. I brew it.

It came out at the end of September. And I'm a pro brewer by trade. And this has a bunch of caramelized pumpkin and spices in it. And it's just super easy drinking. Yeah. I mentioned to you earlier, like pumpkin beer is my time of the year. I go out in New York and find every single pumpkin beer I can possibly find. But this, I mean, this takes the cake, man.

Thank you. There's nothing like a home-brewed beer in terms of, when you see like Sam Adams come out with a, with a pumpkin beer, I'm not going to believe that they actually, like you, were there mashing these things and getting everything just right. It's like, it's just, you know, it's a well-oiled machine when it comes to these big breweries. So how is it competing with stuff like that out there? Well, we're a smaller brewery. We're considered a microbrewery because we do just under a thousand barrels a year. Okay. But we're distributed all throughout southeastern Michigan and draft only, not cans or bottles.

So you pick it up. You get at your bars. Okay. And this beer, last year, it sold out in three and a half weeks. I'm on two weeks right now, and I've got probably a quarter of it left. Wow. Yeah. And I mean, your fridge is packed, I might add.

Oh, I brought a couple gallons. Yeah, so we've got two days to finish all of this. You only have to drink a half gallon a day. That's true. That's true. I guess we should get back to UFOs, I guess. This could be a whole beer episode. but um so tell us a little about what you talked about today we just i just heard you talk for the first time ever

and as soon as you started i was hearing words i'd never heard before in any UFO talk ever i mean you were talking about first of all the spirit box something that i'm a little familiar with i've used it off and on in the past at some small paranormal investigations i was a part of but could you explain to us sort of the technology that you talked about today. Yeah. So my focus today was on something called instrumental transcommunication. ITC for short. Basically, instrumental transcommunication is the use of any instrument, an independent instrument. So let's say the microphone you have on the table here right now is an instrument. It's recording this conversation. So instrumental transcommunication is using these instruments to

record communication from transdimensional entities. And what my main focus was today is these entities, be it ghosts, be it elementals, be it aliens, as we discussed today, are transdimensional and their consciousness is being projected through some means we don't know, and it's being picked up by our devices, and we can record it and review it later on. So today in the talk, we went over a few different methods of ITC that have given really substantial results in uphology. Um, by the way, just on your opinion, I always say ufology and a lot of people say uithology. What's your take on?

Oh, man, I'm in no position to make that determination. I, I would say euphology. I think it sounds a little better than UFOology or. Yeah, um, ologies or ologies. Exactly. And the other thing is like, there's no degree. So whenever people call me a ufologist, I just say, I'm a UFO researcher. You know, I didn't go to school for this.

There's no degree in uphology, but that's a really good question. I call myself an ITC specialist. There you go. Yeah, same thing. I'm a UFO specialist. So what we discussed today was hydromancy, which is the use of scrying and light and liquid to obtain images from the other side. And then hydromancy, hydromacy, goes back centuries like Nostradamus and John D. and all of these luminaries used hydromancy to scry and get messages from the other side.

And we're also getting images that are possibly ET. You saw a few of those today. What did you think? Yeah. I mean, okay. So I always struggle when it comes to the idea of, what is it called, paradolia? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, we can always factor that sort of thing into, someone suggesting that we're seeing this in an image. But the images you were showing, you weren't telling us what to look for. You were showing us the image, and it was there before you even started talking about it. So that's when I was like, okay, there's something to this. I'm seeing it before he's even telling me. And, you know, I probably had an idea that what we were seeing was going to be something to do with an extraterrestrial. But there were some images you showed that were just unarguable, in my opinion.

They're dead on faces of grace. Right, right. And I think the other big thing you brought up today that I found really interesting was your comparison of what Alistair Crowley saw. Yes. And relating it to the Betty and Barney Hill case. Yeah. So for those who weren't familiar, were you familiar with that before? A little bit.

A little bit. I've seen the image of Lamb on occasion. I've never been a student of the occult or anything like that. But that image pops up all the time. And I always find myself being like, what is that? Where is that from? I've never heard it in UFO literature before or seen it in UFO books. So it was pretty interesting when he showed it to us.

Yeah. Yeah. So what he's referencing is Alistair Crowley, who I'm sure you've heard of out there in podcast land. And Crowley did a working in 1917 to communicate with. transdimensional beings. He wanted to open up a rift, a doorway through this working in Manhattan to communicate with those, with those other transdimensional beings. And what he did is he projected his consciousness into this void after days of work, and this being came up to him. And this being said its name was Lamb. And he published it in a publication called the Equinox. And when you

look at this image, so if you just Google, Alistram, Crowley, Lamb, you're going to see it. You've got the classic guitar pick head, the eyes, the two holes for a nose, the slit for a mouth. And I asked the audience today, what do you see here? And everybody said a gray. And the thing that tripped everyone out was this was done in 1917. Betty and Barney Hill gave us our first modern representation of the gray in 1961.

Yeah. So the cool thing, when you actually extrapolate that out, further, which I didn't do in the talk today, is if Alistair Crowley worked to open up a portal between dimensions, and then we started to see Grays, is this whole thing due to his work? Right. You have to wonder, like, was there an influence subconsciously? Did he open that portal and not close it? Did he open it?

Yeah. Well, in fact, that's a really good point, because we and the UFO field look at something like the inception of the modern UFO era, with kind of kind of thing. Arnold and the flying saucers. Now, we all know that he actually didn't see a flying saucer. He saw a crescent-shaped object, and the way it moved,

it looked like a saucer skipping on water. The headline in the newspaper got it wrong and literally put flying saucer. So what did everyone see after that? Saucers. Exactly. So you got to wonder when the first modern UFO era case

wasn't even a flying saucer, and everyone saw saucer. saucers after that. What came first, chicken or the egg? Well, before that, we had airships. Right, right. And then, you know, airships transmogrified into something else before airships. Yeah.

Who knows? Right. And another really interesting thing that you brought up was the spirit box who created this. Yes. And why he created it. I didn't know this. Okay. First of all, would you mind giving us a little history lesson?

Not a problem. So if you want to dig. and deeper, I've got a site called ITC Voices that covers all of this stuff. But the ghost box, as I call them, Spirit Box is a bastardization of the name. That came out in 2010

for a commercial device. Ghost boxes, as they have become known, were first created in 2002 by a man named Frank Sumption. Now, the creation of this box is just a fascinating story. Yeah. So, you have to go kind of back into

history, and the first major waves that were made with EVP, electronic voice phenomenon. For those who don't know, it's basically where he put down a recorder, you ask questions, you play it back, and sometimes you'll get answers from a voice that wasn't in the room with you. It's a phenomenon that's been around since 1957. So there's this guy named Constantine Rodova, who wrote a book called Breakthrough that brought EVP to the Western world. It was in English. And Rodova kind of became the jumping off point for EVP. So in 1995, there was this author named Constantinos,

and it was in popular science magazine or popular mechanics. I can't remember right off the top of my head, but it was October 1995. It was all about communicating with ghosts. And it talked about Constantine Rodova white noise, which is a very necessary part of communication. And a device that Rodova used called the Radova used, called the Rod of a Diod. Frank Sumption, the guy who created ghost boxes,

bought that magazine because he was on all like the old boards that we all used to use way back in the day. Message boards for those kids out there. Yeah. Which later turned into Yahoo Groups when that was a thing. Oh, yes. So Frank had this magazine, and he was all into EVP and ghosts and alien communication. He thought that EVP was. would be great for alien communication.

So he bought this magazine, Reddit, put it on a shelf. He was a high school janitor. And in the season between 2001 and 2002, he's on his Christmas vacation. He pulls down the magazine. He was a ham radio operator in Vietnam, so he was kind of a tinkerer. Oh, wow. Okay. Excuse me, a radio operator in Vietnam.

And he had his own ham station. He was an electronics engineer. He was a janitor by trade. So he pulled down this magazine, Reddit, went to, sleep and a fully formed circuit to talk to aliens popped into his head. He woke up, he wrote it down, and set about making the box. The very first ghost box was made in a cookie tin, and it's still sitting in his widow's kitchen. Wow. And he didn't know what to call it at that point in time. The name eventually got ascribed Ghostbox. And what it is is, it's a box that's kind of crazy.

You have a radio receiver in it, and basically you're picking up. You're picking up a box. You're and it's scanning this radio receiver at a super fast rate. And with the good boxes, like I have all these cases over here. Yeah, he's got quite an arsenal over here. I can admit to that. You can change the speeds manually, so you can run up and down the bandwidth manually. And as it goes up and down the bandwidth, voices start to form in the void that's created, and you get crystal clear communication on some boxes.

and that's what a few of the ET clips that I played today were all about. Yeah, there were some startling audio clips that you shared with us, where, again, what I enjoyed about your presentation is, you didn't tell us what to look at. You didn't tell us what to listen for. You just played it and let us decide, you know. And it was there, man. Like, I heard it clear as day a few times.

The fact that Pleiades came through, the fact that Ananaki came through at one point. I was like, oh, God. It gave me chills. Yeah, so Frank, when he made these boxes, he made them to talk to aliens. Right. And aliens started to talk to him. And they said some really messed up stuff to him.

Yeah. They kept calling him the purple princess. And when I first met Frank, he actually had purple earrings in his ear. He just completely embraced the role. So they called him a purple princess, that he was a diva. He was from the Pleiades. Okay. He was the girl from the stars.

He was brought here by a ship and dropped off. The Ananaki were going to pick him up soon. Okay. And when I played that clip, what did you hear? Who tells me? What about Frank? Clear is day, purple, first of all. That was like the big one.

What was the other one I heard? Oh, God. Well, we had stuff like we brought diva to them. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sent by the ship. Sent by the ship. That was.

That one really got. And how did that sound to you, those words? It felt very, how can I put it? Very mechanical, very non-human. Exactly. No emotion. Yeah, it was simply a means to communicate. It wasn't about, you know.

It's like thought transferred into words. Exactly. And consciousness transferred into words. Yeah. And it sounds like it came from a species that doesn't speak English, it just grabbed mechanical tones. Right. And the cool part, well, not cool, but they basically said in this particular clip we're

referencing that Frank was going to be picked up next and he was to stay advised because he's departing. And he died three months later. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, like the coincidences and the synchronicities that seem to be happening with all of that is really startling. The idea of consciousness, this is something that I think the UFO community is very new to.

I mean, there have been people who've brought this up in the past. But when you have some of our most prominent scientists and physicists and everyone talking about, if there is life out there, they're going to communicate with us through radio signals. And where has that gotten us? We talked earlier, the wow signal. That's it. Yeah, that's it. That's it pretty much it, if you think about it.

So why do we continue to use this means to try to communicate with ET? Because on these boxes, they communicated via radio. Yeah, yeah. But also the idea of consciousness. Yeah. They're communicating through the radio with consciousness too, right? Consciousness is the key. Yeah.

Because if you're dealing with a sentient being, you're dealing with a conscious being. Right. You want to find a way to communicate that you're going to have consciousness on both ends. And that's where instrumental transcommunication comes in. Right. Because consciousness leads to consciousness. It's hard to explain if you've never done ITC, but you're dealing with a sentient being that is communicating with you that you cannot see. Physically.

Physically. Right. You are having conversations through a broken. radio. Yeah. Yeah. And they're making themselves known in two-way conversation. Right.

So for the skeptics out there, or these nuts and bolts, eophologists who, unless that, you know, metal craft is on the ground and I've got trace evidence that I can look at, what do you say to the people out there who don't, don't ascribe to any of this consciousness stuff when it comes to. E.T. What would you say to them in terms of, we haven't, we haven't, like, found shit in 70 years when it comes to? We've got some crop circles that may or may not be crop circles. That's it. Right. We've got some metals that, you know, have all come back. Pretty prosaic in most cases. And the best part is these metals are passed from researcher to researcher and constantly get retested.

And it's always the same result. Right. It's always the same result. So, I mean, is this a whole abyser. of ephology that you think is untapped? I think it's wholly untapped. If you go back into the annals of EVP history, like Raymond Cass and Sarah Eaststep,

they were claiming that they were getting alien voices, and I've listened to Cass, and there's a voice on there claiming to be from another planet and stuff like that. These are simple techniques where you can just throw down a recorder for those who are out there doing like CE5 sessions. If you're

if you're meditating and trying to communicate with alien consciousness, record it. What if you got to lose? When you're in a field doing an investigation, just put the recorder down and sit there for half an hour and see what you get. Right. I mean, it's not hard to implement. No, it's not. It's a simple press of a button.

Yeah, like we're doing right now. Right. My last question for it, Tim, is... There's been a lot of talk at the conference so far about the intersectionality of all these phenomena, whether it's cryptids or the supernatural or UFOs. And we all seem to be stuck in these camps. If there's a ghost involved, there's no alien involved. What are your thoughts on the either non-connections or connections between all these phenomena? I'm completely in the keel camp where everything is interconnected.

I mean, I think most of the phenomena. is completely related to our consciousness and what we are calling to the forefront. You know, if I'm going on an investigation, I have evidence on my site that we are actually sometimes we're recording people who are alive and their consciousness is coming through our devices. Okay. And they're not present in the room. I mean, this is indisputable audio. I've ran it through spectrogams where you can compare the EQ, the frequencies between the two and they match.

Wow. It's absolutely insane. But when you look at that and you're like, well, I'm out here doing a UFO investigation, if I know consciousness from a living person can somehow translate itself into a device, how do I know that when I'm out on a UFO investigation, my consciousness isn't creating the results of the investigation? Yeah. We don't. Yeah. I mean, we apply ourselves and you never know. You can also throw retrocausality into it where, you know, 10 years from now, we could be sitting down talking and our conversation 10 years from now could be informing what we're saying right now.

Right. I mean, retrocausality is possible in physics. Yeah. It's, there's so much out there that we don't know and to just simply limit yourself to know. nuts and bolts is to do yourself and the field and a disservice. Yeah. I'm so happy to hear you say that as a younger UFO researcher coming into a field of, let's be honest, an old guard or gatekeepers, as it were, it's tough when you want to scream, I want to talk to this guy who's looking at the paranormal and see what he has to say about it. They say, oh, no, no, we don't talk to them. We don't talk to them.

So I think bridging that gap and having someone like yourself bring an entire new set of standards to the UFO field is not only cool, but it's essential. So I have to thank you for that. Can you give us your website for more time? Yeah, I've got two sites, one dedicated strictly to ITC. It's called ITCvoices.org. And I've got one that is more expansive that covers every facet of the paranormal, including U.S. Uphology. Okay.

See, I switched it up there. Yeah, yeah. Nice. And that's called paranormal study.com. Okay. Awesome. And do you have anything else coming up, any investigations or anything you're working on?

Oh, I have some fun stuff coming up. I can't release it right now. But, yeah, there's some really cool stuff for me in the future. I'm happy to do that. And a bunch of cons coming up. So, yeah, Google my name. See if I'm coming to an area near you. Awesome.

And in the meantime, we're just. just going to keep drinking your amazing beer. Cheers. Cheers, brother. Damn, that's good. We got to try this one. I am with Eric Wojahowski right now, and we met for the first time today, man.

I've met so many people for the very first time here in Michigan that I've been waiting to meet forever, and you're one of those people. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we've had some conversations on Twitter and Facebook and so forth, and I knew you were going to be here, and I was going to be here, and our tables are right across from each other.

I know. Isn't it crazy? You follow people on social, networks, you listen to all this podcast, and then when you actually meet in person, it's almost surreal. It's like, oh my God, I've been listening to this person or watching them for so long. Right. I've been listening to Somewhere in the Sky's podcast and so forth, and I listen to your most recent one about the UFO Congress. I know you couldn't be there, but you had your soldiers out in the field during the interviews and so forth. And yeah, so I'm very familiar with your work. Awesome. Now,

are you a Michigan resident? Yes. Yes. I live in Livonia, which is a suburb of Detroit. Okay. And I've lived in the area. of Southeast Michigan my whole life. Okay, cool. And the reason I wanted to talk to you today is about your book. But before we get to that, how did you get involved in the UFO thing? Do you have an origin story like a lot of us do? Mainly my father, a grandfather, they would talk about these things.

And in search of was big back in the 70s, and he would watch that. And so there was big foot in UFOs. And my interest in UFOs got started with, when I got interested in ancient Egypt, when I was in college, and a friend of mine says, well, you know there's pyramids on Mars, right? And that started it. I got Richard Hoagland's Monuments of Mars. I read that, and that leads into Chariates of the Gods,

and then to Zachariah Sitchin. And now I'm interested in the ancient astronaut theory, which today everyone only knows is ancient aliens. Right. Of course, but I still go with ancient astronaut theory. Okay, yeah. Well, see, and that's the thing. Like, this stuff has been going on long before the TV show.

Right. You mentioned Danakin. and stitching even. So what do you make of the whole ancient Ashena? Sure not theory. I got to ask, a lot of people don't put a lot of stock into it, you know, when they're saying aliens built the pyramids and we know full well it was probably human beings who did it. What do you make of that whole complexity of, did aliens build these, you know?

Monuments and so forth. No. I don't think that they did. I'm fairly, there was a guy that I worked with, and he was an animal. anthropologists and he was Mesoamerican actually, Mayan and so forth, Aztec, I think, was his specialty. And he wasn't working at the time, so he worked in the bookstore with me in the early 90s. And he was a bit irritated that I was really entertaining the theories because his specialty, I was almost insulting his specialty, you know, with this stuff. And he said, he encouraged

me, Eric, just keep reading, just keep reading. And he recommended books, more books to read. And the more that I, the more that I read about ancient history, the more I realized Sitchin was wrong. And von Donovanekin was wrong. And my actual first article that I ever got published regarding this was with Michael Schumer's Skeptic magazine where I took apart Sitchin's Theory. And that was about 20 years ago, 1998, actually. And ever since then, I've had the bug to write about it.

Interesting. Yeah, and what I think about it. So I'm still doing it. That's awesome. And I mean, the fact that one of your first articles on UFOs and ancient alien theory isn't a skeptic magazine. Yeah. My last copy I had here. and somebody really wanted it, so I gave it.

Yeah, yeah, I wonder who that person could be. You'll be seeing photos of that soon, guys, my autographed copy. So tell us a little about your book. We go from, you know, a simple article to book form, and I know that feeling, man. That's a big leap. Yeah, I've been writing stories since I was in second grade, you know. And, of course, when you get the writing bug and people pat you on the shoulder,

you start upgrading. The book in question you're referring to is called Chasing Disclosure. That's my second novel. that one was released on December 7th of 2017. And the reason why that is so fascinating to me is a week later, December 16th of 2017, the New York Times story was Leslie Keene, Blumenthal's story, hits. And I'm like, what free advertising?

And a friend of mine goes, what kind of money you got for advertising? You got the Pentagon in on this. Hey, you pay your taxes. That's right. That's right. So a week later, I'm actually at a water park with my... kids in the hotel winding down in the evening and I'm seeing the story I'm like well look at that it was crazy man yeah when that story hit at the most random moment yeah it was dropped into our laps

none of us knew it was coming and that's kind of how this whole phenomenon seems to be yeah you know it comes when you least expect it it's dropped into your life and it changes everything and no matter what people think about to the stars academy or the a tip program and what they did it has change the UFO conversation moving forward for a whole new generation. Yeah, absolutely. What do you make of that whole thing before we get to the book? You mean to the stars? Yeah, what do you make of, yeah, all this stuff going on with them and...

It seems like, with UFOs, I'll just talk with just UFOs. Disclosure's always coming. Like, it's just wait, just be patient. I've been playing with this information since the 90s. It's sort of the X-Files thing. Just wait, be patient, Agent Mulder. It's coming, right? We're going to release it early, and it never comes.

It's almost like you keep dangling that carrot, and people keep investing and keep buying your stuff. Does Tom DeLong have the goods? Well, show your hand, Tom. Name any other field of inquiry or any science or any, like physics or astronomy, if somebody said, we discovered a structure on the moon, just wait, we'll show you when we're ready. That doesn't make any sense. We've discovered a new field of physics or something. We know how string theory absolutely works or whatever.

But just wait. We'll reveal it as... No, you let the universities handle the information. You put the information out there. You let experts in the field test it and look at it. You don't keep it proprietary. So I don't know what he's doing. You know, I don't...

I'm just... I'm waiting. I'm waiting like everybody else. Like, Tom, just tell us. I think that's in. good word for it. We're waiting. Yeah. And that's what a entertainer does.

You know, they want to build that anticipation. And that's this whole time along to the Stars thing. A lot of people are worried because it is an entertainment. That's right. It's partially an entertainment company. He's releasing fictional books, which the first book I read

is really good. Secret Machines. But then he's doing this supposedly realistic non-fiction side. But I'm like, I don't I don't know. It's just so weird. Like, imagine a physics department releasing cartoons and making stuff up. I don't know. It's weird. I'm like, just, Tom, come on. Stop. Come on, just show us. All right. Well, speaking of mixing fiction with truth. That brings us back to you, then. Yeah, thanks. So tell us a little about the book. Okay. Chasing Disclosure is the title. And basically what I wanted to do because UFOs have been an interest of mine and ancient aliens, for that matter, for decades, is I wanted to contribute to this field. But every time that I took notes and thought of things,

I felt that I was just retreading old ground. Bringing up old history, just every time you read a new UFO book, I can't help but feel that 80% of it I've already read about, okay? So I thought about, well, what if I just take a fictional characters, create a fictional story, but add elements into it, sort of like what James Cameron did with the movie Titanic. You take some fake characters, but you tell this story. And that's what I did.

So anybody that's interested in ufology, the study of UFOs and so forth, they're going to recognize a lot in the book. like, I know that story, I know that story, I know that story. And anybody who's not interested or doesn't know much about UFOs will get an education on some elements that we talk about. So what I did is the gist of the story, the summary of the story, is it begins with a plane crash. And the only one who is currently conscious and awake during the entire, from the time it was in the sky to the time it crashed, is a seven-year-old girl. And the plane comes down looking like it had been crushed in the sky, like a pop can that had been squeezed. and that's why the passengers, most of them, go unconscious because the cabin loses pressure,

and that happens when you're way up there. But for some reason, this young girl, the 7-year-old, was conscious the whole time, other than the pilots. But the pilots aren't talking because the company's like, we don't talk. There's going to be lawsuits. So there's a UFO researcher. He's the protagonist. And this researcher, he says, I've got to get to this girl and find out what happened in the sky. Did something squeeze this plane when it was up there?

Did it get attacked and let go? What happened? And so he investigates. getting in touch with this girl, interviewing this girl, and parallel with this story, is him doing an investigation about the UFO phenomenon

and discovering some things. He was a soldier in Iraq. He was exposed to some things in the desert. And so you get his history at the same time discussing this young girl, and at the end, I weave together this story about what he thinks is happening. And it's all somehow connected, right?

It's all connected, yeah. Oh, man. The synchronities we find within these fields and these phenomena are, extremely telling, I think, of whatever melee at the source of UFOs, or just the information that people hold when it comes to

UFOs. You know, there's a very trickster element to all of them. Oh, yeah, certainly. So that's what keeps me on my toes, is knowing that we may never know the answers. Maybe your characters will, maybe they won't in the book. Maybe you and I will never know what the hell UFOs actually are. Right. I mean, just come into events, this meeting people talking, that's a reward enough for me. It's like I was discussing earlier. Some people go to Star Trek conventions.

Not one of them believes that Klingans exist, that there's a federation and so forth. But they dress up and they play the part and they enjoy themselves and they have fun. So even if there's nothing to this, I've met a lot of great people. And we can talk about things that I can't talk about outside of this because nobody knows I'm talking about. Because they're not into it, right? I don't like sports very much. I don't know much about football. I can't talk about football.

That's okay. Most of you can't talk about UFOs. That's such a good point. I have been there, man. Trying to have a beer at the bar with my dad, and he's telling me the stats. Detroit Lions. I don't know what the hell he's talking about.

But I could tell him about what happened in Roswell in 1930s. Exactly. And I can give you some dates and times and who started it all. You know? That's what we do. I actually think that when you were talking about getting to the bottom of all this, is there even a bottom to get to? Like maybe there is no actual phenomenon at all.

Maybe it's just a collection of things that we've stitched together that really doesn't belong together. You know, like, for instance, let's say there's a triangle out there or there's a saucer out there or there's something in the water that takes off and goes to the sky. Who's to say that all three of those things aren't completely separate? One's military, one's this, one's to make a complete hoax. You know, maybe there's no phenomenon at all. Yeah. But I'm still kind of a big believer in Philip Class's curse.

Are you familiar with the curse of Phil class? You know Phil classes. I know who do. Everybody knows who Phil classes. Whether you like it or not. Whether you like them or not. Phil class, basically, the curse of Phil class was, no matter how much time you spend on this subject, you're never going to know more about UFOs than you know right now. Wow.

Yeah. I could actually agree with him on that. That's right. You never thought I would say that. Right. And it's been decades. It's been over 70 years since the modern UFO phenomenon, which started in 47. And I can tell you that when I read cases in the 50s and 60s,

they don't seem much different than the cases that I read today. And yet nobody seems to... Right. So I'm in the game because of... Wow. Why not? This is my sport. And this conference is my Super Bowl.

I love it, man. There's no better way to end it. And I think you're going to be very victorious. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks, man. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

An old wine cabinet said to be possessed by a demon, which invokes nightmares and physical harm. An island full of giant rabbits said to appear once every seven years off the coast of Ireland. A rural family that in the dead of winter walked one by one into their barn, but never walked out. The world is full of fascinating mysteries, and the blurry photos podcast sheds light on the darkest corners of the unknown. With a new storytelling focused format, blurry photos brings legends to life and examines if there's any fact behind the supposed fictions. Join me, David Flora, as I explore the unexplained and explain the unexplored on the Blurry Photos. I am with a fellow Syracuse, CN here, Cheryl Costa.

Cheryl, how's it going? Oh, it's terrific. We're having a blast here. It's so fun. Oh, yeah. And two of us, Syracuse. You see you here. Talk about double trouble. I know they put us together at our table, too.

It's trouble made in euphological heaven. And we're also going to be speaking back to back as well today at the event. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. I would love to know, since the book has come out, since all the press that you've gotten with all of this stuff that you've done, what are you going to be presenting you for us today? Well, okay, I redid my slides for the UFO symposium. back in July. I'd been talking someplace about every two weeks

since the beginning of the year, okay? And the slides were getting a little stale, so I wanted to goose them up, and I had literally had, I made those slides for symposium, and then I had the month of August off. And with that month off, knowing I have two more presentations for the year,

this and the Greater New England conference, I decided to go in with some of my more recent research, and I tightened it up, goose it up with some numbers, and a poll came out recently, actually about two weeks ago, and a particular metric that was in that Gallup poll was what I was looking for to confirm another metric, another poll did a couple of years ago, and I ended up using that metric to generate some other numbers, I've got some numbers that no one has ever seen before, and it's going to confirm how much stuff people are seeing in the United States. Wow.

And not the reported stuff, but the amount of stuff that's being seen, but not reported. That's a really good point. We always hear all these things about, you know, hundreds of people have seen UFOs in a given day, even, yet maybe one of them reports it. So how do you go with that struggle of knowing that your statistics stand for one thing? But then there's hundreds of other people who aren't even talking about what they've seen. Well, I've got what I looked at was the UFO community wisdom had been one in ten. Well, if you take the 320 million people in the United States, 76% is adults.

Let's assume adults are the only ones making any other. reports, okay? And from me crawling through the databases over the years writing my newspaper column, it's adults. All right. So that's 254 million people can change. So if one in ten reports what they see, why do we have 25.4 million reports? No, we have 147,000 reports. Okay, actually 148,000. And so I said, okay, a couple of people, nerds came back to me. He said, well, Cheryl, it's the other way, you know? I said, what is it? It says, one in ten sees them and one in ten reports them. So using that same extrapolation, does that mean we have 2.54 million reports?

No, we have 14,6, 147,000 sightings. Okay. Okay? So I said, there's got to be something else. Okay? So I looked at a particular poll, a Fox News poll. Love it. Fox Picture Home Entertainment in July of 2017.

They were promoting that movie they did about the abduction movie. They did about the Phoenix Lights. Oh, yeah. They did a national poll. And during the national poll, one of the things they came out with a number of, they said 16.74% of Americans say they've seen a UFO. Okay. All right.

Now, yeah, we could go back 70. years, but the bulk of the sightings have been in the past 30 years, and I've measured approximately the last 20. Okay. And I can tell you before 2001, the number's going back to like 1989, probably total less than about 3,000 or 4,000. People didn't really start reporting things until broadband was freely available, and that boosted National UFO Reporting Center.

Mufon wasn't known about by most people, and their numbers were tiny until about 2007 a Discovery Channel thing did a thing on them, and suddenly now people knew where to report. So a function of reporting UFOs is one, having broadband an easy way to report them. Much before the early 1990s, everything was sent to one of these collecting agencies

by a fax or an email or a voicemail to somebody's answering machine. Right, right. And it started to tick up a little bit in the late 80s and early 90s because people were starting to get on CompuServe and America Online, things like that. Message boards. Yeah, and it started to tick up a little bit. But the real jump, and I compared it early on with industry documentation about how broadband

was coming as it was coming and people were getting off dial-up and all this kind of thing. And for the most part, most of it happened in the, uh, From 1995 to about 2000, and from about 2005 to about 2008, the rest of it sort of, the more rural areas started getting the cable broadband and things like this. But your major cities, you see it in the early 2000s. So this is what we were dealing with. So a function of, you got to know, you got to have the ability to report it, and you got to know who to report it too. Now, we do have a lot of people who just don't even know about Mufon, don't know about Newfork, and they report them on Facebook to their friends.

So we're missing those reports, but it's small change. Okay. Okay. So what happens is Fox came back with this, had this number of 16%, okay, a tad over 16%. Two weeks ago, in the middle of September, 2019, Gallup Poll announced the UFO poll. And when they came back with the same 36% are believers, 80%, It doesn't believe that the government is telling us what it knows, you know, all this. And then they also came back and said 16% of Americans have seen a UFO.

So at that point, I felt comfortable to use that number as a constant. I went in there and crank my numbers, and the sightings, I take about 30%, I take about 70% off the top. Everybody comes to me, oh, Cheryl, there's misidentification. and there's there's there's hoaxes, there's this, there's that. And a lot of our peers are grudgingly willing to take five or ten percent off the top of the big numbers. I went for the, I went for the gusto because Dr. Jacques Valet said 80 percent is noise. Linda and I approached it from a different approach. We said the exotic non-eerodynamic shapes are the truth.

And the truth was also what we found by deep diving, the big data, was that the tiny numbers are the truth. So we took 70% right off the top. Okay. And that left us with 44,000. Okay? Now you divide that by 18, and you get about 2,500 a year, 24 and change, okay? 2,400 and change. Divide that by 12, you get about 205. And actually, it's a little bit bigger than that.

And then you divide that next number I don't have out the top of my head, And by 50 states, 51 states actually, you count the district, and you come back with a number that says every single state had four exotic sightings a month for the past 18 years. Or one exotic event a week for the last 18 years. That is that is 900 weeks, over 900 weeks. Wow. Okay. There's the tiny numbers. Yeah.

Okay. The truth is in the numbers. Yeah. And what we did with this new 16%, we did a completely different formula. Instead of taking sightings and trying to bounce it back against population, we took a raw population. 42,700. Took 70% off the top, came back with about 12 million. And then we cranked the same thing, 18 years.

by 12 months, by 50 states, and we came back with, instead of one exotic sighting a week, we came back with 1.08 sightings per week. It confirmed it, and it was a completely different set of numbers, but the constants were the key to it. It was there. Wow. It was there. And Linda, when I showed her those numbers, earlier this week, amazingly enough,

I showed her the numbers. She sat down to the dining room table with a calculator. and set there and crunched it to the shelves and she came back and said my god we confirmed it save now at whole foods market it's the summer splash event with great everyday prices on 365 brand ground beef for the grill and ice cream for dessert they have yellow sales signs on ready to cook beef or chicken kebabs too level up with savory marinate spices and rubs and complete your cookout with a crowd-pleasing cherry pie and their balsamic chicken salad available at the prepared foods counter. Get Summer Splash Savings Now at Whole Foods Market.

You got it. And it also confirmed the other concept was it varies from state to state based on population and the actual sightings, what the ratio is. It's as little, how many people report them, right? Okay. It's as low as one in 150 to one in 475, but the bulk of it is one and somewhere in the 200s. If you just take the national population of the adult population in the United States, it translates down to 1 and 290, and I published that on Rogue Planet. Right.

Okay. On Rogue Planet exclusive. Yes, exclusively. But then when I saw this other 16% number, I went back in and cranked those sightings against the adult populations, pulled them from the census of every single state in the union, and then ran the numbers back against that, and I came back with a ratio.

Like I said, very widely from state, your mileage varies. But then I added them all up and averaged it, and it came up to 1 and 277 reports what they see. So that was the other constant. So we took 70% off the top, and when we went to go do the constant, we put that constant in there with whatever number we got just before the foresightings a month,

Boom, there it was. That's the actual what people report about four a month. And that's what turns out. We both sat there and we poured a drink. Yeah. We both sat there looking at me and said, my gosh, we confirmed it. After that kind of math, yeah, in that kind of confirmation, I would need at least a triple whiskey.

Now, when I published the one about that one in 290, again, it's very, remember, we're talking some slushy numbers here, okay, but it's pretty close. when you look at it. Now, I had a lot of mail from a lot of, and I would say, experts in the UFO community come back, oh, but we interviewed everybody who came out of so-and-so's dentist office for a year. Or they came back and they said, oh, we interviewed everybody over a phone poll we did through our public television station, right? And it came out one in ten. But here's what they're missing.

They probably had a few hundred people to deal with, okay? and especially if people do this kind of a poll at a UFO convention, you're preaching to the choir. Exactly. Okay? Yeah, numbers are going to skyrocket. Exactly. So we took the approach that, how do I want to say this politely? They were working with small numbers, and we've learned in the past five years working with this stuff,

and Google's learned this, and Amazon's learned this. The truth is in big, big. numbers because the little numbers, you only get a very small sample. And the bigger to sample, the better the result. Okay. And it crunched down. So we found out that, well, I'll give an example. When we were looking, people asked me when we were doing the original book, they said, what about the, when I told some people that it seems like Saturday night seems to be the month night everybody gets the UFO site, right? And they said, well, what about the late John Keel's Wesley effect?

state effect. All right. Well, he worked with only 800 to 1,000 punch cards back in the day on big old 360 computer when punch cards was the entry method at that time. And most of them were skewed to the southern states and the southwest. Well, if I ran a report against just the southern states and the southwest, I would be skewed to Wednesday or Thursday myself. Okay? But when you do the entire country, 76% were on Saturday night. Okay. Now, the South Carolina, now this is something funny. South Carolina, North Carolina, and Mississippi, and a couple of these places, it was Wednesday. And in a couple of other Southern states, it was Thursday. And my spouse's interns were taking a look at that. And they said, well, we're from down there. That's Bible study night. Again, it confirms what we knew about UFO sightings, population, temperate weather, leisure time, and hours of darkness. So what's a leisure time? You go out to your church meeting, and you're coming out and you're coming out, and you're coming out, and you're in the parking lot talking to people. So after dark and boom, you're going to see something.

Exactly. That's how it works out. 68 to 75% of the sightings on an average day happened after 5 o'clock with about 50% of that amount happening between 830 and 1030 at night. Okay. Wow. All right. And it's consistent. And the only place you see some goofiness is from state to state, sometimes that peak is a little narrower than other. Sometimes it goes up and rounds out real nice.

But they all fall off around midnight. And then you look at the 1 o'clock in the morning number to 6 o'clock in the morning. Usually there's a bump about 5 o'clock. And we used to tell people who sees most UFO reports most UFOs. Dog walkers, smokers, and people out for that first smoke maybe walking the dog. Right, right. Okay? So we see that bump.

The first letting the dog out first thing, going out for that first smoke in the morning. Yep, yep. Okay. But we saw some other bumps in other states. Give an example, Arkansas. It said 3 o'clock in the morning. We didn't understand that. After I gave the presentation, I had 12 men come up to me and say,

we're all chicken farmers. And we grow a lot of chickens here in Arkansas, and that's when we're preparing our birds to go to market. Okay, okay. That's why they were out. You go to Las Vegas. There's a bump at one, there's a bump at two, and a bump at four. Well, the Nevada investigator said,

well, that's when the clubs and the shows let out. Yep. The study of the hourly charts where it's much about human activity as much as it is the aliens. Not so much of the alien. People say, well, why are the aliens there at that time? No, no. Are the people there to see them? It's not observing things.

I took the approach also, Lynn and I took the approach that these things are regularly scheduled flights. You know? And there is one shape that is like that. Remember I said the tiny numbers? Yeah, yeah. 2,400 sightings in 18 years. Okay. An average of 75 to 180.

I'm sorry, 75 to 181 with an average of 123 a year. Okay. And so it goes along as a straight line, but it's so tiny when you look at the graph with all the sightings added up, this guy is barely off the bottom line of the graph. Okay. It's that tiny. Okay. Okay?

Yeah. but it is almost a straight line. It's a regularly scheduled play. I call them the humble flyer. And the shape is called the changing UFO. That's the one that's got the stealth technology. When Dr. Valet talks about it, you look at the thing and it changes on you.

That's the ultimate stealth. Say the thing's got an AI technology in there that's running the ship, has the mechanical telepathic ability, whatever to heck. And it knows you're looking at it so it changes its appearance and so you can't get a grasp on what it is. That's the ultimate stealth technology when you think about it. Wow, you're right, yeah. Okay?

It's amorphous phenomenal. The vehicle. And one of those numbers that I had to divide by 50 states was about 2,400, and that's the 2400. Sightings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funny how that worked out. So that was the mind-blow moment where the drinks came out.

Wow. How of it, Cheryl. Well, this is what I do. I'm raining after. Hey, we all have our things. But your work is essential in this field. And what I always tell people is, and this is why you and I have both been approached, you know, by production companies and stuff like that, is they want the numbers. They want to see where these things are happening. So then investigators like myself can go out and investigate them.

You have the side of the work you do in Uphology that is essential. Where are the patterns? Where are the flowers? What are the shapes? Where and when are they happening? So that we can then go out and talk to the people who are happy the experience. And I think working together is where we're going to find that common ground to figure out what's going on. One of the things we've discovered, the last past year I've been doing forensics.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, digital forensics. It's tedious work. But I've come up with ways of doing it, okay? Some of them are as simple as printing out 12 months, everyday sightings down the left-hand side of the page, and 18 years across the top of the page. And each of those pages represents one month for 18 years. Okay.

I staple them together. I put them on a clipboard, grab a bright highlighter, and I go in and watch my soaps. And during the commercial breaks, I look at these monthly things, and when I look at the monthly things, I take the highlighter and I mark the places most of the states or most of the years. Daily average in the United States is about

20 to 50 sites total. On a day by day basis. And then what you do is you mark the ones where there's a jump in the cities. I usually, for the United States, I say anything over a seven. And yes, in a spreadsheet, I can turn on the condition.

things you geeks, I know I can do that. But sometimes I miss certain things, and the human eye can see other things that's unusual. Okay? So I tend to do it with the felt tip, and then I also do the thing with the conditional settings in Excel to take another look at it. But sometimes the human eye sees things, makes a wisdom call on something that's not quite that hard, cold bottom floor, okay? So what happens is then what I do is I'll write down.

In fact, I had a whole bunch of women volunteer. I said, if I send you the day-by-day charts for your home state, would you print it out landscape and take a felt to it, mark it up, and then send me back year, month, and day of all these clusters. Don't need to know the number. Just tell me what the day was. Anything above this number for your state? In a state like Connecticut or Massachusetts,

I tell them as low as three because they don't have that many sightings. Rhode Island, I might just say check anything. over two, you know. But they do this. And I had about 18 women sign up. Two men, 18 women signed up and said, sure, I can do it. And I got one lady

came back to me and says, I can write code to crunch all this stuff, you know. So, I mean, I've got, we've assembled, I mean, told them we would credit them if we write this book. But what we've done is we go back in, look at the year, do a data breakout, right from the database and just call it up in a pivot

table, the year. the date, a specific day, boom. And then we do it by state. Okay, here you go. I'll give you an example. There was one in April 16, 2008. 60 sightings one day, jumped above the baseline of about 20. So I broke it out, and there was about 15 states there,

and they all, one z-to-zies, except Indiana. Indiana's number 15 state in the country. We were only about 3,300 sightings in the last 18 years. So that's significant. It was 25. So we did another breakout by counties in Indiana, and we saw Wednesdays-to-Sys with the other counties, and then Kokomo County had 12. Did another breakout down to the city level, and there's like six cities of onesy-to-sys, and then boom.

There is a city or a township called Howard in Kokomo County, Indiana, down on April 16th, 2008 had 12 sightings. Understand, I'm looking at a chart that on the average has nothing or one Z-to-Zs on it. Right. But then when you get down there. Yes. So, I mean... You know what, discovering?

Yeah, yeah. Imagine some place that you know about. It's got a volunteer fire department, maybe a general store that sells Hogendos, and a half a dozen trailers out there, okay? Not much more than a cattle crossing. Okay? That has nothing going on all the time, but one year ago, five years ago, ten years ago, one particular day, something really amazing went down. Beats going to places like Roswell and Kexburg again, doesn't it?

Where nothing's happening. Exactly. And that's why I would be hungry to go out to that place. That's amazing. Well, the next one we're doing, we just did the national one, and we got them marked up. And the girls were really fabulous. and they're all going to be credited in the book. Cool.

Okay. A lot of women research there. That was cool. So the next one we're doing, and they all volunteer, can we do some more? So I'm doing the sort on individual shapes. Okay. By day and by 18 years across the top. Okay.

And we're going to look for individual shape clusters. Now, we've already did spheres, and boy, we had some stuff there that just opened our eyes. You know, one particular, now in California, yeah, you might see. Oh yeah, they had seven spheres seen in California on this particular day. Look, they got more sightings than anybody else. Yeah. But that's seven sightings, if it was in Kansas, or even New York State, that would be significant.

Right. Okay? Someplace other than California. Yeah. And it's not driven by populations. Population, temperate weather, leisure time, and hours of darkness. Now, I had some people kind of. corner me in and say, well, what about water?

And we saw a lot about water, but then we had to go back and look at history. Remember your American history? Everybody built their villages and their towns around lakes and waterways because it was a vehicle for transportation as well, and those populations stayed there. So just because we have a lot of UFO sightings around waterways doesn't necessarily mean it's not about the water, it might be about the population. In those concentrations. Right.

Okay. Oh, that's interesting. Awesome. Cheryl, I got to thank you. We have some strange conversations in my household. I can only imagine to be a fly on the wall, but we've got to be a fly on the wall today. So I can't wait to see your talk today. Thank you for having me.

I can't wait to work with you again. Where can we find all of your work? Well, right now, the only thing that's available right now is the UFO Citing's Desk Reference. Okay. UFO Citing's Desk Reference. Available on Amazon. If you just put that in, it'll pop right up. It's by Cheryl Costa and Linda Miller Costa.

She's the brains of the operation. She's got the science movies. I got the top hat in the can. I got an arts and entertainment degree, you know. But I had crunching back analysis and crunching background in the Navy and in 30 years at Lockheed. So, you know, that's where my background is. We're getting ready.

The newspaper I wrote for for seven years went out of business in June. We have retrieved all 236 articles that I wrote over those seven years. all those newspaper articles that were very a matter of fact about UFOs. We wrote them up just like any car accident or any house that burned down or whatever, our name Lost Kid, you know. And we retrieved them when the paper was going out of business, and we are going to publish some time before the first of the year. We're going to publish all 236 of those articles in a trade paper back,

and it'll probably be available on Amazon again, probably by the end of year. So I can't wait. And then we're going to do it. And then this year we're hoping to do a cluster. study and a shapes cluster study and print a book about that. Just all this stuff that we discovered. Boom, boom, boom. I love it.

I love it. Thank you, Cheryl. My pleasure. It's, it's, you are one of these shining heroes in the field right now. And the fact that you've been featured in the New York Times and all across the country, uh, it's, it's, it shows that the work you're doing is not only beneficial to our field, but it is truly essential. Now, thank you.

Some of your listeners probably want to know when our next book of statistics is coming out. Yes. Because ours came out in 2017. It would have to be coming out in 2021. Okay. Because what we've decided to do is take it out to 2020. We'll have a clear sample of the first 20 years of the 21st century. Okay.

Here's the problem. We were going to do it this year. But if we did the report with all the algorithms that we built, all the deep dive we've built, If we did it the way we wanted to do it, literally being able to drill down to the individual city level and be able to show you what shapes and when they had them, the book would be as thick as a very large Oxford Dictionary, about eight inches deep. We can't do it. At 4,700 pages, we can't do that. So what we're probably going to do is hold off to 2020 and print 50 individual books for 51 individual states and probably include D.C. in with Maryland.

or something like that, but do 50 individual books and then a couple of analysis books, and that will be the largest collection of UFO data ever published, and Linda and I will walk off into the sunset. That's it for you guys. Well, I can't wait for all of that. It's so cinematic, I love. Thank you, Cheryl. Thank you. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.

To learn more, visit Entertainment One Podcast.com.