Somewhere in the Skies - HALLOWEEN SERIES: Revolutionary Witchcraft with Sarah Lyons

Episode Date: October 25, 2020

Welcome to another volume of our Halloween series, Somewhere in the Spooky Skies! This episode, we sit down with for an in-depth conversation with occultist and witch, Sarah Lyons. For someone like me, my knowledge of witches begins and ends with a green-skinned woman either cackling and melting away or belting about defying gravity on Broadway... so Sarah is here to set things straight and navigate us through the complex history of witches, the nature of rituals and practices, and the fascinating and crucial connections between witches and politics/activism. Oh... and we talk UFOs as well! Sarah Lyons is a writer, activist, occultist, and witch. She is the author of the book “Revolutionary Witchcraft, a Guide to Magical Activism” from Running Press. Sarah has been practicing magic for over a decade, and has been deeply involved in New York City’s occult scene for years. She was the witch in residence for Vice, where she had a weekly tarot-based web series, and her writing has appeared in Teen Vogue, Vice, Broadly, Slutist, Fusion, Dirge Magazine, and Dear Darkling. In addition to writing and witchcraft, Sarah is also an organizer with the New York City Democratic Socialists of America. Learn more at: http://www.sarahlyons.org Purchase "Revolutionary Witchcraft: A Guide to Magical Activism" by CLICKING HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You've got to pick up every stint. You've got to pick up every stint. Must be the season of. Must be the season of. Welcome everybody to a very special episode of Somewhere in the Skies, where we usually talk about UFOs, but it is that time of the season. You all should know this by now. We do a very special series every Halloween.

This is our Somewhere in the Spooky Skies. And today we're going to be talking about something that we have never talked about on the show before. And that is witches and witchcraft. And I thought, who better than someone who is actually a practitioner of witchcraft, but so, so much more. She's involved with some incredible organizations. She does all types of magic, everything in between. So we're really going to dive into uncharted territories today. And I could not be more excited about that with our very special guest, Sarah Lyons.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me on, Ryan. This is awesome. Yeah, this is going to be fun. Again, this is something I am completely foreign to. So forgive me if I'm getting super 101 on you here. The only thing I know about witches is probably from Wicked, to be honest, as a theater nerd. So I think we have a lot to expand on from Wicked.

So yeah, thank you. I'm not a good singer. So that's been happening today. I promise, I promise me either. But yeah, we sort of connected through a mutual project we did, which was Mysteriesicoded, which we will get to for sure. I want to talk to you all about that experience. But origin story, comic book time, I have to ask, how did this all come to be?

You're probably sick of answering this question like many of us are. But yeah, how'd you get involved with witchcraft? When did this all start? And yeah, give us the origin story, if you don't want. I love giving my villain origin story. So yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think like a lot of people like in the weird world, like we are, when people ask that question, it's like, well, I've never not been into this stuff, right? I've never, there's ever been a time in my life where I wasn't into magic or UFOs or Bigfoot or cryptids or occultism, that witchcraft, anything like that.

I've always been interested in it. So it's, I can't remember a time that I want. wasn't interested. But I remember when I was a kid, it was this kind of, you know, I would read all these stories about legends and folklore and, you know, the paranormal ghosts, that kind of thing. And I was like, man, I really wish the people still believed in this stuff. Like, I really wish that people still did this stuff. And for me, it was, I was really interested in mythology, like when I was a kid. And that always connected with me a lot more. I was, I've always been very spiritual. but that always connected to me a lot more than some of the spiritual practices that I was brought up being Catholic and that kind of thing, especially like being a woman.

There just felt like there was kind of more of a foot in the door with those sorts of things. So it was, yeah, I was like, oh, it was just kind of sad that that never, that wasn't a thing anymore. I didn't know why people weren't doing those sorts of things. And then one day, I remember I was coming home with my mom from like a grocery store or something. and we always had NPR on in the car. It was like a family that we had. It was a very NPR family. And there was an NPR story on Wicca.

And these people were talking about being witches and practicing spells and doing all this stuff. And I was like, oh, my God, this people do this. And I literally remember I ran upstairs to the computer and I just Googled everything that I could about Wicca and witchcraft. And it was like from there, you know,

the rest of history, as they say. I don't longer consider myself Wiccan. I feel like Wicca was like my door, like foot in the door. Like with a lot of people, it was my gateway drug to the rest of the local. I kind of started there and then branched out from there. But growing up, I grew up in a really rural area in Massachusetts, like out at the end of Cape Cod. And it's very seasonally based.

It's a very seasonally based economy. So things like the wheel of the year and the cycle of the seasons and like kind of living with natural rhythms weren't an abstract idea to me, the way that I think they're. are to most people in kind of a Western world right now. So to me, the idea of, you know, Saoen or Halloween being the end of the season and the, like the end of the year, and then the dead kind of take over for the next few months until Beltane and then life comes back in. That's just how the economy out there works anyway, because October is really the very, very end of the tourist season. And then things just are dead. Like my town is the town of

2,000 people. There's like three stoplights. It's very small. There's, you know, there's one grocery store that stays open all year and everything else closes. So, you know, and then all of a sudden in May, June, all the people come back and there's an economy again. And so that kind of stuff wasn't very abstract to me. And I think that that really helped me kind of get a foot in the door and a kind of initial grasp of what all of this was kind of talking about. And it's, I've had to change my practice kind of, you know, considerably now living in a city. for a few years and being at a totally different location and interacting with different spirits that I was when I was growing up. But I think that that's part of why I like witchcraft and why I like

magic and occultism and that kind of style of spirituality because it is very adaptable in its nature and it's very much, you know, personalize it to your own experience and to what's going on in your life. And I've always really liked that. That's so cool. Yeah. I I guess I never really thought of it that way. Like your practices will sort of, uh, are malleable in terms of your environment and everything because this is, I guess at the heart of it, a very, um, uh, earth-based practice. It, it all comes from, from the world around us in nature and everything. Again, something I never understood because all I ever knew about witches was this shit. Like you've got a crooked nose person on a broomstick. And that we're going to get to that because that's always been

fascinated me, these archetypes that we've sort of, you know, adjusted throughout history to sort of oppress the sort of things that you do. So I want to ask, what is, what is like a typical day for you, Sarah, in terms of your rituals? Like, for me, I wake up and immediately coffee pot on. I start checking my emails, get sucked into these stupid phones that we have. and whatever, you know, I start the day. But I would assume, you know, for someone who's really into something like this, practicing it, what does a typical day look like for you as a which practitioner? Sure, yeah.

So for me, the daily practices that I have that I do every single day are I try to meditate for 10 minutes every day. Sometimes if I sleep in, I don't. But I try to. But I, yeah, so I usually do like 10 minutes of meditation every day. to start the day, I leave an offering of a glass of water on my ancestral altar every morning, and just kind of like thank them and give it like a kind of moment there. And every night before I go to sleep, I always thank the earth, the ancestors, the spirits of place, the gods and animals that exist in the place that I'm at.

Those are the things that I do every day. And then for me, I practice, I'm not as hardcore as some people, but I do practice a little bit of astrological magic. So that depends on the day of the week. And for me, personally, the way that I am kind of working through astrological magic right now is a process called astrological remediation. So that basically means kind of the same way that if you would go to like a doctor and they say like, okay, you've got this like genetic problem of some sort, some sort of health issue, here's a regimen that we're going to give you to, you know, remedy that this is the same thing. But for me, it's kind of problems in my birth chart and molythic planets and placements that I have

in my birth chart that I'm using astrological magic to kind of work through. So for me right now, the days that I do practices on are Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. So that would be Sunday, sun, Monday is the moon, Tuesday is Mars. And also Friday. So like right now, like Friday is a big day for me. I'm going to turn the camera a little bit so that you can see. But I've got actually an altar going over here. Oh my gosh.

That is so cool. So this is my Babylon altar. She's the goddess of love and war. She's very hardcore. But this is, I kind of will like leave her offerings usually of roses, which you can also see behind me here. And yeah, I do that. That's what I, those are my like weekly, daily week.

practices, if you will. For each planet and for each type of thing, because I'm trying to give it a different form of remediation, I'll typically do something different that matches that planet or something like that. So for me, I have a really powerful sun placement because I have sun in Leo, which you also have. And that's like where the sun is happiest to be, because the sun rules Leo. It's the only planet that the sun rules, or the only side that the sun rules. So it's the happiest place for the sun to be, but it's opposite my Saturn, which is just, it sucks. So for me, on Sunday, I'm trying to feed that and give that kind of ego a healthy place to go, right? Same thing with like Venus.

Like I have kind of like, it's like Saturn is also opposite my Venus. And I'm trying to like remedy that in some way and like feed that. So those are the kind of other practices that I do. And then from there on, it's more based on what I need in the moment. Yeah, like if I need to do a spell for this or that, that kind of just depends on when it comes up. Awesome. Well, okay. So, I mean, I as well grew up Catholic and everything, but like that was not my identity.

I wasn't like a Catholic and that was my life. So I'd love to know if you're willing to share as personal or not as you'd like to get, what do you do other than when you're practicing witchcraft? You live in New York City, right? Yes. Cool. Is there? Yeah.

Well, for me, it's weird because I'm not, for me, my spirituality kind of leads through a lot of my life. So I'm not always doing witchcraft, but magic and that kind of outlook on life. For me, I consider myself an animist. So to me, that means being in kind of a living dialogue with the world around me. And kind of embracing the high strain. of life, if you will. So, you know, just kind of, yeah, like seeing, seeing life as a conversation, paying attention to signs and omens when they come your way, synchronicity is that kind of thing. And so that doesn't stop. That's the thing that I continue to do throughout the day, throughout my life.

But in addition to that, I also am an activist. I'm an organizer with the Democratic Socialists of America. I'm specifically work with the eco-socialist working group here in New York City. You see that as an extension of my spirituality because to me it's like I can't, I can't claim to work with the earth and that kind of stuff and then not kind of defend the earth when I feel like it's under attack. So I do that. I am a writer. I have written a lot for Vice and Team Vogue and kind of outlets like that. I have my own book that I published on witchcraft, which I'm sure we're going to get to later. Yeah.

And then, you know, I'm just a 20-something gal in the big city trying to have it all. Right. Yep. Me too. Me too. I'm just a big gal in New York myself. Yeah. So for those who see this background image we have, this is from the cover of your book, which I absolutely adore. It's such a cool cover. But it says so much in the symbology in there as well. So I want to cover that with you. Revolutionary Witchcraft, A Guide to Magical Activism. I just finished reading it. It was so good. I feel like I'm ready to get out there and really get things going. And in many ways, in many ways. But in the introduction, of course, you know, got to start with that.

Witchcraft is the Earth's immune system kicking in in the last moment. What does this mean? So, yeah, this is something I actually think that we can dive into a lot here. Because a lot of people, typically a big thing that I get asked in interviews is, why is witchcraft so big now? Like, why is everyone getting into witchcraft? And, you know, I think that there's material answers that I can give. You know, I can look at, you know, you can look at socioeconomic reasons. You can look at cultural reasons.

You can look at, there's a lot of historical things that we can dig up. And I think that those are all good pieces of the puzzle, and those are all true. But for me, it's also, I'm, like, as an analytics, and as someone who isn't like 100% of materialist in these things, I think that there is something to be said for the fact that we're in a liminal state in our like globally in a liminal state. And I, you know, kind of like with the trickster in the paranormal and that kind of stuff, I think that, you know, when obviously we enter into a liminal state,

weird shit starts to happen. So I think that people are becoming more interested in witchcraft and magic and astrology for the same reason that we're seeing all these UFOs all of a sudden, and we're getting disclosure about UFOs all of a sudden. We're getting, you know, there's been a big uptick in people, you know, talking about stuff like Bigfoot and people talking about cryptids and true crime and like all these weird, all this weird stuff is happening at the same time. And I think it's because we're kind of, we're leaving one part of world history behind

and we're entering into another part. And the doorways are kind of open right now and all this weird shit, is coming out. So on the witchy side of that, I think it's because we're in a very crucial time for, you know, magic. We're in a very critical time for the life of the Earth. We really don't have much longer to make significant changes in order to survive climate change. I mean, that's kind of a whole other dark conversation to get into right there. But, you know, witchcraft historically has always, you know, which trials have always come about from the early modern period up until today, they always come about when there is a significant change to the land and to how people are regarding

the land. And that usually ends up being a reflected in treatment of women, treatment of queer people, treatment of trans people, that kind of thing. So, so for instance, like the witchcraft trials, they are like the, of the early modern period, which is like we can look at the Middle Ages, things didn't really start popping off until the 1500s. And one of the big reasons I believe that is is because it was the first time in Europe that land became privatized. Before that land was not a privatized thing. And this was for the first time ever, land became something that you actually owned. It wasn't a thing you inherited through some sort of familial thing.

It wasn't a land that you conquered and were like a serf to a prince or a duke or something like that. It was now you could own a piece of land. And that is like, we think of that as very obvious now, but that was a radical change in human history. That had never been done before in human history. So once that happened, people were really mad about it. Peasants were really bad because all of a sudden now you have to make money all the time because you have to pay taxes and deeds and make an income, a consistent income to a landlord, which we still have today.

So you have to, yeah, you know. So love them or hate us? Yeah, people were not happy about this. And people, there was a lot of peasant rebellions. A lot of these peasant rebellions were led by women because what this did was it immediately devalued female labor specifically. Because when you think about it, if you, like, not to say that this is like a time we should return to, right?

I want to not be reactionary with this, but just to display how things got different. If you were a peasant, you have a farm, you have a homestead of some sort. If there's a division of labor in that farm, it's usually that like, the males of the household are out cutting the wheat or, you know, doing husbandry, like working with the animals. And the women in the household are taking those products and turning them into bread and turning them into beer and turning them into clothes and that kind of stuff. And or just or just running the house, keeping things clean, cooking for the family, you know, raising the children, that kind of stuff. That will get completely demonetized. So the grazing of the kids, the cooking of the food, the cleaning of the house, all of a sudden that's not valuable anymore because that's not making money.

It's the bread and it's the grains and stuff that are making people money. So women all of a sudden, whatever power they had in society, completely gone. And now it's like even more so you have to become a wife. You have to become married into a family of some sort because that's the only way that you make money, right? That's the only way that you can survive now. There was even like doctor, like female doctors and stuff like that, that got kicked out of being doctors because that was just no longer a thing anymore. So, and in that, witchcraft all of a sudden becomes this hugely problematic thing

because witchcraft was very much like folk magic and witchcraft, two different things, which we can get into in a second. But it's, you know, it's a way to kind of, how do I say, It was a very integral part of the community, like having a female doctor in the town, having a female, you know, spiritual guide who kind of knew, like, like, for instance, my, I have a friend whose great grandmother was sort of a modern version of this in her village in Italy. And people didn't call her a witch, but what they said is that she knew how to say the prayers. Like she knew how to pray for people. And it's that kind of knowledge that was passed down for a long time. But when you, that is like that butts up against so much of what was economically happening in Europe, about the privatization of the land, about the industrialization of the land, about the, you know, pillaging of resources from Africa and North America and South America, all this stuff happening at the same time.

All of a sudden what that does is it makes, like all of a sudden you can't have certain days that you don't work because that's not profitable. All of a sudden you can't have magic because, because magic is a weird thing that can't really be controlled by the state. If you can make things happen on your own, well, that's a problem because we need you to mix up for us. And additionally, you know, the labor force is made in the female body or what was then codified as the female body. So women all of a sudden became baby making factories because that was where the next workforce was coming from. And it's not really a coincidence that there's, you know, a lot of the witchy herbs and a lot of the herbs that women were put on trial for possessing or for using things like Henbane or Mugwort or Belladonna. These are all abortive herbs. You know, there's magical purposes to them. But things like Mugwort are like a way to induce a natural abortion. And there's a lot of stuff going on there about, you know, that all of a sudden that really can't happen.

anymore because we need workers because someone's got to fill up these factories. Somebody's got to work at the land. And we can't have people not having babies anymore. We need babies. So that's a lot. But I think it's important to look at the history of witchcraft because this happens to this day, like whenever capitalism expands into a new marketplace, if you look at things like in Indonesia, this happened in the 60s, I believe, when there was kind of a communist revolution that happened there that was largely supported by the population. And there was a coup to kind of undo that. And one of the things that people said was that the communist women were witches that were, that were dwelling in the forest. They were stealing men's penises and they were doing all this

molytic magic. And it's like, that's not true. But that happens every time this economic system expands because it needs that. It needs that function. It needs to use witchcraft as kind of a way to get rid of people. And also, it's, I think, on the other side, witchcraft comes up because it is the land fighting back. It is the land saying, no, you actually do have power, and you should be using it right now because I'm about to get very harmed. And that's going to harm you, too. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV. Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free.

The truth is our sin. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. Interesting. Yeah. Wow.

That is a lot to unpack, but no, I, but it makes sense. It seems that, you know, sort of the archetype of the witch throughout history, whether during, during the trials or now in Hollywood or pop culture, it's to strip that agency from whatever movement the witch represents at that time. And it, that's, it's incredible to see that because, again, my, my understanding of all this comes from what we see in Hollywood and, and, and stuff like that. And it all seems to be a way to sort of stamp down what the, the movement and the practice actually represents. And that's amazing. Well, in terms of that power, Sarah, that a practitioner can have and can harness,

you did mention in the book about embracing your ancestors and how important that is to becoming a practitioner of something like witchcraft or magic. And I never really thought of it that way. Again, I feel like this is something that you kind of just decide to do and you do it. But your ancestry plays a large role in that, too. Would you mind touching on that whole aspect of this? Yeah. So when I was writing a book, I was kind of trying to think back to when I was first getting into witchcraft and magic and what kind of book I wanted to read.

And I think because I, you know, in writing this, I was like, okay, this is probably going to be a 101 book. Like this is going to be a book for people who maybe this is their first book on magic or first book on witchcraft. So I was trying to think back to when I was younger and I was looking for my first book on magic at witchcraft. And it, when I was younger, what I thought I wanted was a book with a bunch of spells and demons and spooky stuff. Like, I thought I wanted the key of Solomon, right? And that would have been fun, but I wouldn't have known what the fuck to do with it. Can I swear on this podcast? Absolutely.

Fuck away. I'm like, I swear like a fucking sailor. But yeah, I didn't know what to do with those things. So I, looking back, what I really needed was a compass and kind of just a compass to go through all. these other books and all this stuff, a kind of a guide. So for me, I don't think that my book should be the last book on magic that people read, but if it's your first book on magic, just kind of look at it as a starter pack. This is your, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this. You know, this is your starter Pokemon. So there's a, so for me, starting off with an ancestry

practice is a really great way to start a magical practice, because first of all, your ancestors are the spirits that are probably going to be the most, probably the easiest to listen to you. Like, they're probably already listening to you. They're probably already around you. They probably already know who you are. So you have the most buy-in with them out of any spirits because some spirits is like, don't give a fuck.

Like, they don't care. And so you're like, I want to talk to Baffanman. And I'm like, well, Bathamette doesn't care about you. Like, you have to make Baphimit care about you. But you don't have to make your grandmother care about you, right? Good point, yeah. Right. So yeah, so there's a immediate buy-in.

So that's a good thing. They also have your back if you're engaging in spiritual work that is dangerous in some way. They're there to help you out. They're there to guide you through dreams or divination, that kind of thing. And it's also, I think, very, it's very needed right now because I think a lot of the problems that we're dealing

with politically, magically, you know, in every aspect of our life has a lot to do with ancestry. and ancestor problems. I think that America especially is a very haunted land because we don't know how to deal with death. We don't know how to deal with loss. When we talk about things like the, you know, all this stuff with racial justice that is going on right now,

the Black Lives Matter movement, there is a huge ancestral component to that because we never really dealt with the ghosts of slavery. Like the literal ghosts of it, right? Like there are some literal, like, racist ancestry that is hanging around and is gunking up the works, right? And I think part of ancestor work for me is to talk to those ancestors and be like, okay, move along now. Like, get out of here. So I think that there's also just, there's a lot of trauma on on every side

that needs to be dealt with. In my own practice, there's, I just, a lot of trauma that gets dug up through ancestor work. And it is painful. But when you work through, that it has real benefits in your life today. And so I think that ancestor work is, it's one very simple, so it's easy to get started with, but it is very rich and very complex when you really start to dig into it. So that's why I think it's a good kind of first step for people. Absolutely. And like you said, I think, again, like having that support from the start is very important. I mean, we look for that in our, you know, our everyday life as well as someone to have our back or someone to to sort of solidify that we're doing the right thing or or whatnot.

So no, I completely understand that. And like you said, too, I think sort of it's kind of your, you're buffering into talking to a spirit or, you know, someone from your past other than like some, you got to start small. I guess that's the way I can put it in a way and work your way up to the more powerful people in the spirit world, I guess. I guess sort of moving to modern day when it comes to witchcraft.

You mentioned this a little bit earlier. And it's the same in the UFO community as well. You see kind of this insidious thing happening where people, and people do this in every community, every subculture, taking advantage of people's belief systems or latching on to something. and commodifying it. And I mean, I see this in the world of metaphysics, astrology, but for me personally, it's with the UFO community. When I go to conferences and speak, you know, I'll get up there and talk for an hour about military witnesses, having encounters with things they can't explain and military officials backing them up and

this and the most serious credible stuff you can think of. And then next is someone who comes up there and says, I have channeled 10 different races of aliens. They told me this, they told me this, and I'll give you the answers if you buy my book or if you take my 10-week course, which is $7,000. So yeah, I'd love to touch on this whole aspect with you because it frustrates the hell out of me trying to legitimize what I'm doing. Does this happen in your world as well where, like, you can see. the commodification of witchcraft or certain practices happening.

And what do you make of all that? Yeah, I absolutely do. It's very, it's interesting. So I am not as in the UFO world as I am in, like, the occult world. But so I, this is maybe I think you can get into later, but that's interesting because I come from UFOs and aliens from a very kind of, I don't know, it's like, Jacques Foulet kind of standpoint where I'm like, oh, yeah. For me, it's like, I think they're all spirits.

Like personally, I hear this stuff. And I'm like, okay, maybe some of them are crap, but like, I think most of it is spirit stuff. So there's like, to me that, that is like hearing about that person at that conference hurts me at a couple levels. Because I'm like, first of all, there are like real victims and real people that you're kind of profiting off of that pain. And then two, it's like, yeah, this is just like, yeah, just a grifter. Like just you're just drifting off of spirituality. I don't know. But yeah, I definitely see.

It's been a minute since I've seen something quite that on those. and quite that insidious as like somebody who sounds like they're literally trying to start a cult. You know, like a Heaven's Gate 2.0 or something. But I... It's happening, trust me. It went so well the first time. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah, I love Nikes.

But there's a... Yeah, so in the occult world, the grift is quite easy, but I think that people are a little bit wise to it. So I don't see people coming out and being just straight of cult leaders. like that so much. But I do see, I think the problems with witchcraft are a lot of the same problems with kind of feminism right now

where there is a lot of great stuff there and it is like, I think it is a net good that these things are becoming popularized. I think it is a net positive and I'm happy to see it. But it's very easy to like under capitalism to just say like, great, you want

a witch t-shirt now. If you want this stuff that you can buy, and in my book I tried to make it very accessible, not just the way that I write it, but I've made it very purposefully made it so that all of the magic in it involves things that you don't have to buy. You don't have to buy a bunch of accoutrements

and buy a bunch of stuff to do this. You already have this stuff probably in your house or it's like very cheap to get. You don't have to get a bunch of really, expensive things. I think personally, if people can gather their own herbs and know their own landscape, have a working relationship with these things, that's really where magic comes about. I think obviously there's stuff that I buy. I love, I love, you know, occult bookstores. Those are like community centers for me. So I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy anything occult related

by my book. But there's a, you know, like, please buy my book. But I don't think that people shouldn't buy anything occult related because there are like you know there are specialty items and there are you know there are people that I know who are you know pour their heart and soul into jewelry and to you know oils and incenses and things like that so I don't think that that's a bad thing I think what happens is when it is divorced from magic and you kind of just commodify things it's part of the same process that kind of destroyed witchcraft to begin with. It's the same kind of mechanistic, you know, capitalist model that sort of drove that out of the land to begin with. And so I do push back a little bit against that sort of commodification because it's, you know, it feels the same way that it's,

that feminism has been commodified, where it's like, no, this, this is actually a very powerful political idea. It actually has some very revolutionary potential in it. And it's capitalism's way of neutralizing these things by commodifying them, like the way it did the way it did with punk and the way it did with very, you know, kind of radical movements in the past where it's like now instead of being a 60s radical, you can just dress like one, right? You know, now instead of embracing the revolutionary power of magic and how like you can make things happen for yourself, like you just with your mind and with your belief. Like, well, now you can dress like a witch, right? And again, I fucking love witch's fashion. Like I, you see how I'm dressed. Like, I don't

it's just, it does concern me a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That is such a good point. And I mean, again, it goes back to that commercialization and capitalism is the constant, I guess, obstacle here is every time the individual or let's say community feels empowered, there's always that thing to stamp it down and to quiet its voice. And I mean, and we're going to get into the more political aspect to all of this as well, because that fascinates me just as much. But kind of rounding out this idea of pop culture, I guess, in witches. Like I said, wicked for me, Wizard of Oz, all these ideas of a green-skinned witch or someone who's evil and snatching up children. I think I've watched Hocus Pocus about 10 times already. It's on freebie every single night. if people don't know. Hollywood, they are a big component in all of this

and how we as the mainstream perceive witches. So do you have any reckons to give when it comes to how Hollywood deals with all this stuff, Sarah? It's interesting because I think, so people ask me that a lot, and I think that people want me to be, like, offended by the Hollywood witch, right? Like, they want me to be like,

that's a stereotype. I'm not green, obviously. Like, you know, and it's like, I think that people, realize that there's no green people out there. Like, right? I think that there's, I, I, um, personally for me, I'm able to separate out the kind of myth from reality. And I think I kind of have a little bit of faith that most people do feel that way, um, that most people know that that's not, that these are embellishments and exaggerations or artistic kind of representations. Um, so I'm not

actually that mad about Hollywood representations of witchcraft. I think right now there is, to me, witchcraft has a very rich history. And to me, witchcraft is, um, its power lies in the fact that it's very hard to define, right? And I think ever since it kind of happened, like, ever since people have been doing this, there is this very intense desire to define what witchcraft is, uh, you know, back, going back to the trials, you know, there's, uh, a co, you know, a codification of witches meet with the devil on these days. And they do these rights with the devil and they leave these marks and this is what happens. And it's like, sure, like, I'm sure that there were people who were doing that kind of thing. Like, we know that that's true. If you look at the trial of someone like

Elizabeth Gowdy or Isabel Gowdy, sorry, in Scotland, you know, that's a very important piece of history to me because that's somebody who wasn't, she was a coerced into giving her testimony. She gave it freely. So when she talks about her consorts with the devil, when she talks about meeting the man in black, all this kind of stuff. It's something that we're getting probably from someone who did this stuff, and not somebody who is just saying whatever the judges want to hear. So I'm not saying that these practices didn't even exist, but there's this intense, from the very beginning,

it's very people really want to codify witchcraft into being like it is just these practices and it is just this stuff and that's it. And witchcraft is very hard to define. It's the hardest aspects of the occult to define. It's not like, you know, druid, or Solomonic magic or, you know, Thelima or things like that where you can look at the history. There are these certain books you have to read. There are certain historical figures that you can point to as like people who started the practice and that's, it's that.

Which craft is really weird and there's a lot of old documents you have to go through. So to me, I think that in there's always kind of a rush by Hollywood to be like, well, which is our only evil? witches are actually only misunderstood very good hippies. Or it's like witches are actually all feminist. And it's like, you know, witchless have been really bad. Like historically speaking, like being a witch was not a good thing. Like it was considered a very bad thing. Even if you were a folk magic practitioner, there were witches.

Like if you look at something like the Bell Witch in Kentucky or if you look at the people who were accused of witchcraft in the Salem witchcraft trials. They own slaves. Like those aren't feminists, right? So it's not, it's not as simple. But then on the other hand, it's like, well, yeah, it was a way to attack women. It was a way to, you know, take power away from the poor peasant women. So it's very complicated.

And I think that to me, it's not so much a problem of like, listen, Mr. Hollywood, this is what riches are really like. To me, it's more like, I just want more, I want more witches. and I want more diverse, interesting representations of witches. Like, I love that movie The Witch that came out a few years ago, because to me I was like, oh, my God, somebody finally did a real folkloric representation of like what Puritans would have thought witchcraft was. And that's so rare in films now to see because I feel like there's such an intense,

like, no, it's about good women. And I'm like, yes, yes, yes. I love it. I love it. But give me one bad witch. Like, give me, I want mean witches again, right? Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Again, yeah, it's about giving it an agency, giving it individualism, you know, again, like, yes, you could find strength in numbers in a community, but at the end of the day, like every witch is going to have their own perception, their own rituals, their own way of dealing with it, in their own reason for having gotten involved with it to begin with. The witch, I'm so glad you brought that movie up because that was, I guess, sort of my gateway into which is being a symbol of feminism.

I mean, again, from my simple, I guess, kind of male-centric mind that never, it never really spoke to me until that last scene in that movie when I was just like, whoa, I just had my perception shattered on what this is. and now we're seeing a reboot of the craft we're seeing that new Anne Hathaway movie coming out I think witches which I think is a remake as well so yeah it's kind of having a resurgence

I think in Hollywood hopefully in different ways but yeah yeah it's interesting like it's to me what I liked about the witch and like what I like about some of those movies is that I

like to me magic is scary. Like there's this, I think there was this long, um, there was this long attempt for a very long time to be like, witches are actually all good. And we just, you know, we worship mother goddess and mother earth and, you know, we would never harm anyone. It's like a very wick and kind of idea, like, do no harm. And, um, you know, it's, it's all about peace and love. And it's like, look, at my heart of hearts, I am a hippie. Like, I really do believe in peace and love. Like I am, you know, I do, like, I do want us to all get along, right? But it's like, I don't know, witchcraft is scary.

Magic is scary. It is when you do this stuff and when you do it for real and it's, and I, to me, that's what kind of keeps the magic alive is every now and then being like, whoa, I just did that. Like, oh my God, this is real. And I think it's, it's maybe it's similar in the UFO world too, where it's like people, people who have these experiences with UFOs, people who have these experiences with like beings from a different

dimension or other planet, like whatever you want to take it. Like that's really terrifying and like I think the thing that people forget because they're like, oh yeah, aliens are probably real or like, oh, they're probably not real. It's like, well, if they are, that's a big deal. Like that is a earth shatteringly

big deal. And that's something that changes everything about how we know reality works. Especially, like if they're probably another planet, that's one big thing, right? But if they're from, if they're like an interdimensional like spirit being, if it's like reality is this veil, like that kind of weird shit, if it's something like within our own psychic, you know, understanding of the world, that's actually terrifying, right? That's like, you see that that. That's scary. And I think with magic, it's kind of the exact same thing where like, yes, okay, our thoughts are causative, you know, spirits are real. This is all great.

And you can have fun with that and it can take you to a very peaceful loving place. But I think sometimes it's important to sit in kind of the lawcraftian terror of it and be like, oh my God, there are beings behind the stars. Like there's like this is, the world is so much weirder than I thought it was. And it continues to get weirder the more I do this. And I personally love that. Like I personally think that's great. But so I guess maybe that's another thing I pushed back on is kind of the attempt to defang magic and make it very palpable.

I'm like, okay, it can be used for very. lovely and nice things and I do that all the time. It's scary at the end of the day to me. And I think it's fine. Let it be spooky. Let it be spooky somewhere in the spooky skies. That's why you're here today. You bring up so many like sort of roads we could go down. And I agree with you. I think that that concept of, you know, if we like to attach the alien to the UFO always. Whenever I do UFO interviews or whatnot, it always starts with, so aliens are visiting the planet. And I'm like, no, I never said that. But you're a UFO researcher.

Yeah, so what? Like, I'm not saying aliens are visiting our planet. People have reported that and they assume that because where else could these things so non-human come from from another planet? But yeah, like you mentioned. Like the reality just tears open. Yeah. And then all those doors are open. And again, I think that's scary for a lot of people.

We want to think it's just aliens visiting our planet or that a spirit is just a, you know, the energy of a loved one. But there's, once you start like stripping back those layers, it's so much more complex. And I think that scares people, that fear of the unknown, you know? So I totally get it. Yeah. to me, so I just finished reading the Mothman prophecies, which I love. Nice. Oh my God.

So good. Yeah. And to me, it just struck me so much that this was, that these were like fairy tales. Like, you know, what people were going through. I was like, oh, my God, this is exactly what you read about when you read about old folklore and people having encounters with the devil and stuff like that. And there's so much in that book and encounters like that, that I was, to me, as a magical practitioner, I'm like, yeah, there's. no way, like, there's no, there's no physical being that makes this stuff happen. This stuff only happens when you encounter the fay or you encounter the devil.

And like, the devil is called the man in black. And then the men in black show up to people's doors and, like, do weird stuff that are wearing shoes that aren't the right size that are eating sugar pills. I'm like, that's not a fucking bed. That's the devil. Like, get the fuck out of there, you know? Like, to me, oh, my God. God. But yeah. So I mean, and I think that that's where people can't, it's, that's why I think there is a kind of concerted, I don't know if it's a concerted effort, but why there is a huge resistance in like a very, you know, very staunch materialist branches of science and research against kind of the work that we do. Our research will someday be seen as legitimate.

In the science books, yeah. But yeah, but sometimes it's just like, yeah, because if we're right, you have to change everything about what you're believing and about how your world works. And you don't want to do that. And sorry, I think we are right. You know, get on the weird train. Get on the weird train, the crazy train, as Ozzy Osbourne would say. No, but that's such a good point. Like institutions are what keep things in place, you know.

and there's some good institutions, obviously, in history, but I think you're right. You know, once that's there, that's the answer. And I think, you know, up to a few, what, a month ago, they might, might have detected Earth, what am I trying to say? They detected possible life in the clouds of Venus. And if we look at something like the Drake equation,

this super complex massive equation that life probably does not exist in our own galaxy because of this and this and this and this. And now all of a sudden it's like, hold up. There might be life on Venus or there was life on Venus or there is life thriving there now. And it just shatters everything. So now it's a matter of are we going to change everything we thought we knew for so long or are we going to take that step to the next paradigm? And I think again, that goes to, with so much of what you do and what's going on in the world right now, where a lot of, at least here in America and other countries, people want things to go back to what they were before

and keep things status quo. And then another part of the country wants things to change dramatically. And that divisiveness, I think, is what has gotten us to where we are now in probably the most tumultuous American election in recent history, which we will definitely get to. So, yeah, I think we need these things right now. We need witches. We need UFO people like Tom DeLong, like changing the entire landscape of the conversation. No matter what you think of him or his pop punk music, I mean, this guy for us has opened the doors wide open to break.

down those institutions who have tried to tell us nothing exists and UFOs we can explain them away. So yeah, interesting times we're living in, I think. I think so. Yeah, I mean, look, the UFO community needed a bank and Tom DeLone came along and decided to be the bank, you know? Like, that's great. I think for me, it's like, that's what you were talking about with like the paradigm shift. I think I kind of write about this in my book, but I think we're at a time where not just, we're not just going through one paradigm shift, right?

Like if you think about just 2020 alone or just the last couple years alone, all right, it'd be one thing if like there was just UFO disclosure, right? Like that'd be one thing like that happened. But that happens on top of a pandemic, on top of, you know, on top of, you know, on top of, you know, a bombshells or bombshell report from every type, from everything that's happening. On top of, you know, the rise of QAnon and, you know, cults and nexium and Epstein and all of this. Everything's happening at once. And it's like, to me, I think that, like, that's, that's consensus reality in a crisis. And it's, you know, there's no longer, like, so in magic there is this term called consensus reality. Basically, it's like the reality that we can all, or most of us can kind of hang our hat on and come to agreement over.

So, like, the sky is blue, is consensus reality. New York City is in the United States of America. It's consensus reality, right? These are things just like, don't have to question it. And previously things like, you know, America is the greatest country in the world. That was consensus reality to a lot of people. Or, you know, capitalism is the best economic system. That's consensus reality.

You know, we fixed racism. It's the Civil Rights Act and Martin Luther King, like, it's over. Certain things like that were just like consensus reality to a lot of people. And all of a sudden those are getting broken down. Or like, okay, Earth is the only place where there's life in the universe. Like, getting broken down. And whenever there is a. shift like that, there's a moment of initiation where your scope of reality gets bigger because now

all of a sudden you are, you're privy to information that was always there, but you just couldn't see. So you're kind of leveling up magically when that happens if you lean into it. If you don't lean into those initiatory moments, if you don't lean into those paradigm shifts, you could really fuck yourself up because it's like you're trying to wear the kid's shoes when you're an adult. It's like, know you grew out of that. Now you have to step into the new shoes. Even though you like those light up sneakers a lot, like you've got to step into the bigger ones, right? And that's happening to all of us constantly right now. And I think that that's one reason why so many people are talking about like civil war in the United States of America, because I think to a lot of people,

it's the only way that they can see this reconciling in some way. It's just like things are like, you know, like my consensus reality is not the same as a Q&on believers consensus reality. And to a certain extent, that is going to become incompatible at a certain point. That's just that just doesn't get along. People who believe in abolishing the police

and people who want, like, Trump being like a law and order president, that's incompatible. That doesn't get along. So there's, I think people look at these inconseable, you know, irreconcilable realities that we're dueling with here, which is what I think kind of like magic

is as a tool, like to understand. understand politics, like it's a battle of reality is and it's a battle of will. We see this and it's like, oh, yeah, obviously there's going to be a civil war because how else is this going to resolve? I don't know. I don't know if there's going to be a civil war or not. I mean, astrologically, we're not going to a great place. But it's, you know, I think that it's just a sign that we have to kind of lean into this a little bit. It's, we have to lean into that weird, at least in the short term, we have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and not knowing what is real right now, right? Like, okay, like for me, I'm a big believer in the

kind of spirit or non-material belief of UFOs, right? Like, that's where I come from. But then I hear about stuff on, like this gas on Venus, or I hear, I see that video that the Pentagon released. And I'm like, well, fuck, maybe there are people in spaceships. Like, I don't know. Like, that's fucking weird. So even then, for me, I'm like, I don't know what to make of that. And it's, uh, it sucks. But I think that if you don't lean into it, that's when you actually have problems, right? Yeah. Just when you're into not knowing.

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Terms apply. Yeah, the not knowing. And again, I think that's what keeps us so stamped down is people are not willing to sacrifice their beliefs or everything they think they are owed or deserved and not willing to accept that we don't know what. comes next. And we don't. Like, this is the most uncertain time in my lifetime, probably in many people's lives. We have absolutely no idea what's going to happen in a few weeks here in America or

across the world or where this pandemic is heading. Like, we've put so much trust in governments in the past. Again, these systems that are there to keep things in check and keep things the way they are under the guise that it's for the people and it's to protect you and this. But now we're seeing everything like witchcraft and UFOs and magic kind of pushing back at that more than I think they ever have before. And that's like you said for us very exciting. But we also don't know what's going to happen. But we also go to America on top of that. Exactly. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, if the proud boys have anything to say about it, we are. But that's a whole other story. But no, I think I think you're right. I think this is a time where everything you and I have spent our lives looking into and embracing and our listeners and viewers and people in our communities have been doing is finally standing up and saying, like, I'm here. Like, you can't keep us quiet anymore.

And, uh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, go ahead, Sarah. No, this is, this is to your point, but I actually, like, history of witchcraft and, like, being a witch, like, that was something I always kept very quiet from people. It was always, I used to joke, now it's the first thing that people know about me, but it used to be the last thing that people knew about me. Because it was my way, I kept in private. And until you came to my house, and it's like, why is there that goat skull there?

And I'm like, just ignore. But anyways, there's so, you, like, but for me, it was very much, I had to couch it in a bunch of, like, science, and I had to know anthropology. I had to be like, well, you know, the experiment where the things don't go through the two slits and like all that all that shit that we all know about like the folks, the greatest hits folks at home know. So I have like memorized this stuff and have it ready to go if I was ever to talk to people about magic because I had to prove that I wasn't a crazy person. It's just like a whole other conversation I think to be had about shame and these things. I think people who are into magic, paranormal UFOs, we feel a great deal of shame that we're like still dealing with today that I think we need to just get all. over because we're right. But there's a, I'm adamant about this. But there's, to me, I,

for me, once Donald Trump got elected, all of a sudden, like literally overnight, people didn't question magic the way they used to. If I told people I was a witch and I was like, oh yeah, like, I think that reality is a malleable thing. And I think that thoughts are causative. And I think that we can shape reality how we want to to a certain extent, all of a sudden people were like, all right, that checks out, I believe that. People who I've known my whole life who were atheists and skeptics and, you know, adamantly not about this kind of thing, because I think they saw someone basically pretend their way into being president. Like, whatever you think of the guy, I certainly have many, many negative opinions. I think Donald Trump is doing chaos magic very well

or has historically done chaos magic very well. I don't think he calls it that. I don't think he knows that that's what he's doing. But he is a textbook example of really bad molyphic magic kind of run them up. And I think people can kind of see that. And when you explain what magic is to them, all of a sudden it's kind of a way to explain like how Trump happened and how the last four years have happened, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I look when he was first elected, look at what happened. I mean, you had the Women's March directly after that. One of the first things I saw as kind of like a rebellion was witches all over the world were putting hexes on this guy. So, like, you're right. Immediately when this man was put into power, you started to see magic rising. And that's fascinating to me to think, like, that's what happened.

And the fact that, well, let's let's unpack that a little bit in terms of the current president. We, something's going to happen in the next couple weeks, but the last four years have been. I'm going to make a prediction. Like, here's your time of the 2020 election. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. I'm terrified, but that's okay. That's okay.

Yeah, I don't. know. It changes every fucking week for me, man. There was, before Trump got COVID, I was like, I was spiritually certain he was going to win re-election. I was like, no, this is going to happen. I don't know anymore. I think that it's, there's two

astrologically, there are two things, I guess I will point out if I would, if you're listening to want a little bit of like a prophecy to come. So there's two things. Let's do it. Let's do it. Two things to watch out for. I believe December 12th, there is going to be something called the Grand Conjunction, the great

conjunction. And this is something that only happens every 20 to 30 years. It is going to be Jupiter and Saturn are going to be sitting right on top of each other in the skies in the sign of Capricorn. And every time that this has happened in U.S. history ever since William Ray Harrison, it's something called Tecumse's Curse. And whoever the sitting president is either is assassinated or has an assassination attempt against them. So or is, or dies in office. The only exception to this rule is George W. Bush and 9-11 happened. So December 12, mark it in your calendars. It is very likely whoever the president is will die or will something very bad will happen to them.

Historically, that's what has happened. Yeah, so that's one thing to keep an eye out for. And the second thing is on, yeah, the 4th of July 2021, America is going to have its Pluto return. and no country makes it through their Pluto return without a revolution or a civil war or an invasion or a massive change through the government. It happens every like 250 years. It was going to be America's first Pluto return. And I think that everything that we're seeing now is kind of the buildup to that because obviously we are like astrologically due for a huge change to occur. What that change is, I do not know.

I was a big Bernie Sanders supporter just to put my tarot cards on the table because I was like, okay, that's how you square the circle. Like, that's how you have a revolution in a peaceful way. Like, that's how you do revolution by the ballot box, kind of. So I was like, all right, thinking with that in mind, this is the thing, like the guy talking about like revolution but doing it in like electoral way.

Like that's how we do that. That's not happening anymore. So I don't know what's going to occur. But those are the two dates, I would say. to look out for and to kind of keep in mind while all of this is going on. I think the Pluto return is kind of anchoring a lot of these shifts that we're seeing in American culture right now. Interesting.

Wow. Yeah. What were the dates again, Sarah? December 12th. December 12th and July 4th, the 4th of July. So it's really, Pluto will be in the same place in the sky. It was when the Declaration of Independence was being signed.

So that's- how ironic. Yeah, that's America's birthday, right? So that's what people are, yeah. this is going to happen. Astrology has a good sense of humor. I love it. I love it.

Okay. Well, you mentioned Bernie Sanders, and you mentioned earlier in the conversation in your work with the DSA. So I'd love to talk a little about that. I've been to events in New York with the DSA, very powerful, amazing movements going on there. And how does this play into you? Now, this is where we really get to politics and magic and how they are intertwined.

And how do you deal with both of these things in your life when it comes to your work with the DSA? Well, it's very interesting, right? Because historically, I mean, I don't think anybody's like, I think if anybody knows anything about communism or Marxism or socialism, probably the line that they know is religion is the opium of the masses, right? So they people know that and they know that like historically. Or at least they have a perception historically that the left, like leftism has been antagonistic or unfriendly towards spirituality. And I think that that's definitely true when we're talking about Europe and where we're talking about a lot of parts of the United States. It's not so much the case when you look at places like Latin America where there's been a really huge embrace of socialism by indigenous people, including like indigenous spirituality in that. if you look at the Zapatistas, or if you look at, sorry, if you look at Abo Morales's

mosque party recently in Bolivia, that kind of thing. There's also a huge, but a huge embrace by socialism, by Catholicism in Latin America. Liberation theology is a really big socialist movement and something that actually the current Pope came out of, which is why in his encyclicals, he's very adamant about calling out capitalism in the encyclicals that he gives out. So like, they're not as incompatible as people think. But historically, at least in like the West capital W, there has been some like animosity towards religion, right? But again, I think this is really changing recently. And I think that it's really been, that's that has not really been my experience. I think especially with witchcraft, I think which is a very in

in socialism right now because of the work of people like Sylvia Federici. And, and and other writers like that. I'd like to include myself in that, but who knows? I don't know. But where, you know, if you look historically at like what witchcraft represented, like I kind of went into earlier, witchcraft was, like the witch trials were the cauldron out of which capitalism came. You know, it had, you know, it's, if you look at it,

it has all the ingredients of what word was to come later and all of the things that, so in Marx's, you know, philosophy, he has this thing called primitive, accumulation. So it's whenever an economic system forms, the way that the economic system forms repeats itself kind of in the DNA code of that economic system whenever it expands. So for capitalism, people have always been very interested in finding like what was that primitive accumulation? Where did it actually start? Because that will give a clue to like how it functions as an economic system. And increasingly, I think a lot of people have been, have really come around to the idea that the witch trials were the primitive accumulation of capitalism.

That and the subjugation of indigenous peoples in Africa and the Americas. But those two things happen simultaneously and actually are very connected. What's up guys, Ryan Sprag here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show. website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too.

So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. A lot of the technology that was used in the witch trials came from the oppression of indigenous populations. And, you know, whether it's the consorting with the devil, the, um, the actual measures and like the dunking, the burning at stake, the executions, like that all comes from tech that was used on indigenous populations that was then brought home to Europe. I think a lot of socialists and a lot of people on the left have really come around to seeing that as the formation of capitalism.

And so it makes witchcrafts kind of, I think, a very in thing in a lot of ways. But it's very interesting, right? because, and I don't know if you ever encountered this in UFO land and talking to people who maybe don't do the work that you do. But there's a part of me where it's like, yes, yes, yes, witchcraft is about the subjugation of the Politiate. Yes, it is about women's empowerment. Yes, it is about, you know, the land and the commodification of the land. Yes, it is about these things. It's also about fucking witchcraft.

Like, it is also about the devil. It's also about spirits. It is about soul flight and leaving your body. and doing magic. And like it is about the spooky scary shit too. So like while I think there is a political dimension to it, I'm very adamant to be like, yes and. Like you cannot separate the two from each other.

Yeah. And so that's kind of something that I kind of bring to the table, I guess, in my own organizing. I think also just again, I think it's an understanding of magic to me has really helped inform my understanding of politics. And so, you know, if I can bring that to an organizing perspective, that's always a positive for me. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

I mean, I feel the same in the UFO world. Like, yeah, we're talking about, like, the possibility of life elsewhere. We're talking about breaking down science that has been, like, ingrained into our minds throughout history and shattering that and starting anew in some ways. But at the end of the day, like, they're fun stories. They're weird. Like, when I hear that, like, someone was taken aboard a craft and brought to Mars, giving it to her, and then back to Earth, like, that's cool to think about, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

It gets your imagination going. Whether it was real or not, almost doesn't matter. It's the fact that, like, it's challenging your mind to think about. something other than just like, no, could never happen, can't bend time and space to get there, whatever. Yeah, so I understand that aspect of it as well. And I also understand, like, again, this UFO world we're living in where people are forcing the government into a corner to be like, give us some information on UFOs because you can't, we're going to find it. And we're going to, and it's happening. And military witnesses are coming forward and telling their stories, which

we know you don't want them to do. Like, just tell us, and it's working. Like, we're pushing back against that bureaucracy that has kept these things secret for so long. And this isn't even like conspiracy theory. This is a fact that the government investigated UFO secretly for eight years and didn't, nobody knew about it. And now we know about it because someone in that program said, fuck it, I'm done. I can't believe we're not telling the public about what we're discovering here. And I can't believe no one is also taking it seriously.

I'm out. And the dude quit the program and then started his own thing to force them to come out with those answers. Yeah, you know, he was a part of the problem and now he's hopefully part of the solution. I guess is a way to put it. Absolutely. And to me it's like just a big old middle finger in that fucking stupid line that was said for so long that I feel like when I was when I was younger, I don't know if this is like the line that was still being used more recently, but like, oh, well, if the public found out about UFOs being real, there would be mass panic. People would freak out. And it's like, no, like, have a little bit of faith. Like, I think there's a lot of, you know, this is, this extends to the political arena as well. But I think there's this, sometimes I really do think that people's politics can be like, do you like people? Like, do you fundamentally like people? Like, do you fundamentally trust people? And like, if you can fundamentally trust people. And like, if you can fundamentally trust. And like, if you can fundamentally trust. that people are going to be able to take information and, like, digest it and be okay with that,

that's fine. You know, like, to me, that's just like, that's a big part of my politics is I'm like, I just like people. I just want people to be happy. Like, I'm just, I'm sick of all the shit getting in the way of people just being happy and living, like, fulfilling lives, you know? And it's just stupid bureaucracy that we have to live under every day, like, just how, how worked and twisted it is.

And to me, like, UFO disclosure is such a. That's a, like, it just, to me, it's very affirming because it's like, yeah, people didn't lose their minds. Like, people, we didn't all run out into the streets. Like, it was the, you know, the broadcast of the day they're, have to Dave, so still, War the Worlds. And like, like, we're all just going to run outside and think the aliens are attacking us. It's like, no, people can digest this stuff and people can be rational about these things, you know. Good point.

I mean, and that goes for, like, yeah, I don't think we give our fellow human beings enough credit. That goes for the whole ancient alien theory as well. Yes, we were brilliant. We are extremely capable of building the pyramids and these beautiful, incredible things throughout history, especially people of color who built them. And let's strip them of all of that by saying aliens helped them. Yeah, I think it goes, there's a lot of ways you could look at it. And look, I know I have listeners and viewers who are either right wing or a supporter of the president. And I have people on the other end of the spectrum. And I think what that says truly is that there are things beyond politics that we can all connect with. And like you said,

you just want people to be happy. Of course, that's what I want too. I may be more less leaning than a lot of my listeners and everything. But that doesn't mean like I want this person on the right to like have a heart attack and die. It just means like we have different idealisms. And that's the way that politics, I think, the more evil side of it creeps in and they divide us instead of bringing us together. And what brings us together? Witchcraft.

UFOs. You know, like, these are the things, these magical things in our world that we deny that could actually bring us more together. So I think there's so much to impact there too. Yeah. And I think it's about also staying humble to a certain extent where it's like, yeah, like I, you know, I consider myself like a socialist or like a communist, whatever. I'm sure some people are like, what? But it's like even then I say that and

I'm like, you know, I say that because it's the closest political definition I can come to what I am. But I don't think like Marx was necessarily that some of you had every single thing right. Like I don't think that any philosopher had everything right. I don't think that, you know, any, any of these guys like Bakunin or Luxembourg or any of those guys, like, had 100% it down, especially nowadays when, you know, there were certain historical things that they just couldn't anticipate. Like, Marx didn't know that the internet was going to be a thing one day. Nobody anticipated drone technology or UFO technology or any of that kind of stuff. So it's like, to me, it's about doing magic and being engaged in the paranormal

is about staying humble because whenever you think you have things figured out, whenever you think you're on top of it, and you're like, no, okay, I've got politics down. I know what the answers are. I know exactly what we got to do. And then it's just like, like, again, that door opens up and something else fucking weird comes out.

And you're like, well, back to the dry and talk about no shit, I guess. Yeah. And welcome to anarchy. I mean, it's about breaking things down and building them back up in a whole new light. And again, that's where these things we do, that's where it lays. I honestly believe that.

Well, okay, so I guess moving away from politics, not really, actually. This actually has a lot to do with politics. And this will be my last question. Yeah, I know. Especially American politics. Like we said earlier, super tumultuous. I have a pit in my stomach, and every day I wake up.

And like you said, we're in the middle of a pandemic on top of that and UFO disclosure and genocides around the world. It's just like everything all at once. And it's always there in some form, but I think it's been amplified tenfold by technology on the internet and everything like that. But let's talk about the election in America in terms of voting. I remember you saying, I believe it was in the book or an interview, voting is just a tactic. So I voted. I assume you voted. Millions of Americans voted earlier than they ever have before, which is amazing and awesome. Please go vote. Please, please vote. No matter who you vote for, just do it. Just do it.

This is, I actually haven't voted yet because I'm voting on Election Day because Mercury will be direct then. and I do not, this particular retrograde is very intense and I do not trust it. I am waiting until I am actually going to stand in line on election day and vote because I do not trust this for your retrograde and waiting until it's over.

Good for you. It's weird. So I guess for me, like tactic versus strategy, right? Is that the question? Yeah. Okay. So this is maybe like check out the book. I go into it more there. But something that I think is for anybody,

for any political delineation, that's listening to this right now. One thing that's very important to understand is that there is a difference between political tactics and political strategy. And people confuse these two ideas a lot. And people do it on literally every side of the political spectrum. I see people do it on the far left, far right, center,

liberal, conservative, whatever. I see people confusing these a lot. So a tactic is something that you use in the service of a greater strategy. So like for me, let's say, like, I'm a socialist organizer. I want to build socialism eventually, right? That might not be what you're trying to do if you're listening at home. But like for me, that's what I'm out here trying to do.

That is the strategy for me is like the long-term narrative and goal, how I make that happen. Then there are tactics in between how I do that. If you want to break it down even more simple than that, let's say the long-term strategy, like I'll use a personal example for myself. So I live in Queens and New York. There is a bunch of power plants here that pump out most of New York City's energy. And they're incredibly dirty. The neighborhood that I live in has the highest rate of asthma in all of the state because of these factories.

And it's not necessary, right? There's a lot that can be shut down or, you know, should be converted over to more renewable energy. And my working group right now is in the process. of doing a campaign called the public power campaign. So we believe that energy and power should be publicly owned and operated good. It should be said as a public good and not a commodity. So basically what we're trying to do is break the grid in New York City down into smaller microgrids, that the community would have direct control over and direct ways to vote on how the energy is used,

the places that it comes from. This has already been done in places in New York City, like in Sunset Park. This group of Uprose recently created the first solar co-op in the in the country, I think. So it's that this place in Sunset Park, literally the whole community has a, has a, has a democratic buy-in to the grid. And they voted to do green energy and to do like have a solar co-op. So now this whole area in Sunset Park is 100% renewable because of democratic control. So that's where we're trying to give back to people, right? So that's like the goal and the longer strategy of the goal is things like, okay, we have to get elected, you know, we have to get elected's put into place that are sympathetic to our goals.

We want to shut down certain power plants that would stand the way that would set us back on our timeline when we have to fix global warming. We want to implement certain laws that would make this organizing easier, that kind of thing. Those are strategies within the service of this larger goal. and then tactics are like the individual things that you do. So that could be engaging in a protest, voting, letter writing, petitioning, doing direct action of some sort, door knocking and canvassing. These are all tactics. And there is, you know, within a movement, there's always a debate to be had over whether tactics are effective or not, right? So for instance, like you can have, like people might have a lot of debate over like if shutting down a highway is an effective tactic in a protest or not.

Like does that actually help that movement or not? I personally think that's kind of a case by case basis sort of thing. Some people might get mad at me for that. You know, I've been stuck in traffic and hit it too. But that's like what I mean is like that is not a criticism of protesting. It is a criticism of that particular tactic of protesting, right? To me it's like I like to get very specific. with these things because I think a lot of political arguments come from a lack of specificity.

So being specific with our language is I think very important and what we're talking about. So you can agree with the goal of a protest, but maybe disagree with the tactic and how they go about that, right? So for me, voting should best be understood as a tactic towards a greater strategy of change. And I think that this is where a lot of people have, feel very hopeless and very lost right now. I mean, we personally, it's like Joe Biden, super not my first choice. Probably one of my last choices, to be honest, right?

And I remember when he was first nominated, I was like, fuck this. I am not voting for this man. Like, fuck this shit. Fuck everyone. Fuck you, fuck you. Like, you're okay. Fuck you.

Like, it's, you know, I was so mad about it, right? And I think what I eventually come around to is like, I think what upset me at, at first was like, um, neither voting for Joe Biden, not voting for Joe Biden. Neither side seemed to have a strategy, right? Like a coherent strategy where it's like to me, it's like, if you want to not vote for Joe Biden, that's cool. But what's your strategy after that, right?

Like what is what is not, what is the tactical reasoning behind not voting for this person in the service of a larger goal, right? And you can make that argument, but I just don't see it being made in very, satisfactory ways well of the time. I also don't really find it very satisfactory to vote for Joe Biden and then hope that he'll move leftward. However, I think that there's slightly more weight

to that argument. Like I think that there's just slightly more weight to that strategy and that tactic and saying, okay, we don't like either person, but Joe Biden is at least going to like give a passing like to the left in a way that Donald Trump will not, right? And he'll at least be like, at least on the surface level more,

respectful of our goals than Donald Trump will, right? He's not going to jail all of us probably, right? So there's like a, I see the strategy there slightly more than I see the strategy for not voting. And I'm very sympathetic to both because it's like I don't like the situation we're in either. But I think when you break it down and you think about voting as a tactic and service of a larger goal and a larger strategy, becomes a little bit easier to understand what you're actually doing. And I think, yeah, like, it's moving beyond just the vote, don't vote discourse, right? But it's just like, go, don't vote. It's like, you know, like, let's just actually think about what we're doing for a second, right?

Yeah, totally. And I mean, again, it's putting what you want, you know, in your mind, in your heart, and everything into action. And that's why, you know, we've talked so much about activism in this conversation and politics, which I'm sure a lot of my listeners and viewers weren't expecting, but like too damn bad. Like that's where that's what this is about. And I again, that idea of politics and magic and, you know, this this weird dance between the two is is extremely eye-opening. And I hope people will be open to that watching and listening to this. And for sure, like, it's extremely interesting, you know, I'm doing this Halloween series. So there's a very surface level to that.

And that's pumpkins, owls, witches, and all this fun stuff. But at the core of it, this is about a movement and a movement that's been seen throughout history in many different ways. And I think that's amazing. And again, no matter what side of the political spectrum, you lean on, you can find something empowering about what I think witchcraft represents. So I hope people will embrace that. But here's my back to Hollywood for you, Sarah. Before we get to some listener questions, if you're willing to stick around for that.

Absolutely, yes. Cool, cool. I had more than I ever expected, which is awesome. I'm super excited. Let's end with Mysteries Decoded on the CW Network, a show. You and I are both a part of. I don't know about you, but when this first came about, I was like, what? Like, it just like happened, fell out of the sky.

But what was the experience like? What was your episode about that you did of Mysteries Decoded? And what was that whole experience like working, I guess, with Hollywood on trying to get the word out about witches and witchcraft? Yeah. Well, for you, it literally fell out of the sky because you were talking about Russia. It did. Like, for you and crashed, right? No, it was great.

I mean, it was kind of a dream come true in a little bit of a way because I, so I grew up in Massachusetts and I grew up going to Salem every October. It's like going to Salem was what made me want to be a witch someday because I was, you know, it was like a place I would go and I didn't feel so weird, right? That one time of year I was like, okay, yeah, people really do do this. And people really practice this stuff. And like there are really, like there's a world out there for me. And I can there's going to be a day where I could be part of that.

And so, you know, Salem is a big, it's a big part of my heart, you know, a big part of who I am comes from that place. And so actually getting to go there and talk about the Salem witchcraft trials and talk about the history of that place and, you know, actually getting to hold historical documents in my hands and go to these places, like get an all access past to places that I normally wouldn't be able to go to. was incredible. It's like a dream come true for someone like me. So I was I was super into that. And it's it was it's very interesting. Like I had done some smaller scale things that from that before. So I have done I did some work with vice. Actually I did I don't know if you've ever talked to them the queer paranormal people. Yeah, absolutely. That was I did a documentary on them for vice when I was working with them a wall back. Yeah, that's so Shane and all the back. Out everybody, yeah. Go check a little.

Yeah, so I got to hang out with them in Ohio and then in Seattle at this film festival they were at. So I had done kind of smaller scale things like that and like a video, like October is the season of the witch. So I had done kind of videos on like, what is witchcraft before? But that was my first kind of larger scale TV appearance. And I don't know, I'm a Leo. So anytime I get treated like talent, I'm like. I've in my hell. Yeah.

But yeah, just as a witch, it was like such a dream come true, he just like visit those places, talk to people, really get into that case on a very, on very deep level. So I love it, yeah. Yeah, well, that brings up a good point. And full disclosure, we're both Leo's, which we connected on earlier.

And also we live like blocks apart in New York City, which is insane. Even though I'm like thousands and thousands of miles away, now. We probably could have done this in person, but we would miss the season of the witch. So, um, Hollywood, I guess, I hate using that word Hollywood. Um, television. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hollywood. Um, television affords you resources that you might not otherwise have as an independent researcher and stuff like that. So, you know, embracing those aspects of it is amazing. Like you said, like you touched documents. I put my feet on the ground.

of the impact site where a UFO might have crashed, a place I never in my life thought I would be. And that was life-changing for me, no matter what happened back then in 1947 when something crashed in Roswell. I was there. And you can just feel the history and everything around you, which is awesome. So I'm sure that was a really defining kind of journey for you as well. what did you come out on the other side thinking about what you guys looked into you kind of looked at like the witch trials and then like stuff going on in modern day um in terms of like you know paranoia and hysteria and all these all these other things um yeah would you come out on the other side thinking after that yeah you know paranoia and hysteria thankfully not very relevant topics to today in our lives at all um not one bit no one's losing their minds over anything um so yeah Yeah, very calm times. Very normal. Yeah, so it was interesting, right, because at first, I was actually a little bit afraid that I was going to be made to be like,

demons are real and they were all possessed by demons and these girls are also possessed by demons. Like, that's what's going on. And that's like not what I think happened in Salem. So I was a little bit afraid I was going to get put into a corner where I was going to have to be like the weirdo. That's like saying that's like to be the counterweight to Jen, who's. very skeptical and very like not a believer in any of this stuff. I thought I was going to have to be the extreme other. Like I was going to have to really be the molder and be like, well, what's the devil? And like I, uh, I didn't have to go that far because I think we kind of did agree on a lot

of the sort of socioeconomic maybe reasons behind the Salem witchcraft trials and what was going on historically at the time, that kind of thing. I think if I was going to get a little bit weirder with it, right? Like if I'm going to talk, you know, talk the lines now that I'm that got cut maybe for the episode. It's weird, right? So the whole thing, if people haven't seen the episode or haven't seen the show, the two things that we're investigating are the Salem Witchcraft Panic, the Salem Witchcraft Panic of 1692,

and this mysterious occurrence that happened in this town, Danvers, which is Old Salem Village in Massachusetts, where a bunch of girls on this soccer team suddenly fell into fits that were very similar to the fits that were experienced by the young girl. in the original Salamish trial. So obviously it's very weird because it's basically the same thing happening 300 years apart in the same exact place. So it's it is a very weird, you know, thing. And, you know, I hesitate to say coincidence because people in my line of work don't really believe in coincidences, right?

Same, yeah. We call that a synchronicity, not a coincidence. Yeah. Yeah. So there, to me, I guess what I would say is that beyond the, you know, obvious, you know, socioeconomic, like scientific reasons that we can talk about about how stressful it is to be a teenager, especially being a teenage girl, especially in 1600s, you know, I don't know what was going on at this high school, but it certainly seems like maybe a stressful time period for like a lot of these people. for me, it also speaks a little bit to just the spirit of that land. Like, I think that that's just something that we're not really comfortable talking about. And that I get why I didn't really make it on to the episode because it's just hard to talk about, like, how do you counter that? How do you make sense of that?

There's a, to me, it's like, okay, well, maybe the land around Salem and that place just lends itself to hysteria. Like, this is just something that's there. That's just a spirit that exists in that place. and kind of talking about the devil as being not a guy and not a literal spirit, but as just chaos, like as the trickster elements in the paranormal, which is how I kind of think of the devil as just that,

that weird shit, right? The fact that, you know, going off, sorry, like, I'm just putting my computer in. Oh, no worries. My computer's about to die. Okay. Sorry, but yeah, like, I think if we're talking about, you know, the paranormal and we're talking about things like,

how the the gimbal footage for Bigfoot was faked. The fact that some people fake alien sightings, fake Bigfoot sightings, and how that's part of it. Like that's actually, that is the devil. Like that is the dancer in that thing. And to point at that and say, see, that makes everything fake, is kind of missing the larger phenomenology at hand and like what is going on. So to me, you know, with the girls on the soccer field,

with the girls in old Salem, I think it might have been a very similar thing at play where I don't know if there's an explanation, like a physical explanation beyond, you know, yeah, like the spirit of that place, just being very at home with things like that happening. Salem is a very hysterical town, but there's a lot of weirdos who live there.

And I love them with all of my heart and soul, and I love Salem, but like, you can't say it's a normal place. You just say it's just part of the DNA up there. And I think that that's fine. Like, I think that that's good. And it's, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really important for places like that to embrace it instead of denying it.

I mean, Roswell is a small, small town that honestly probably wouldn't have survived up until today without that. UFO crash having happened. And of course, you're going to find locals who don't ever want to talk about it or be known for that. But they have a festival every year that draws thousands of people in, and it supports the communities for the entire year. So, like, there is a good thing to come of an event that we will probably never know the answers to. So, like, just embrace that. That's how I feel, whether it's Mothman in West Virginia or the witch trials in Salem or Ross, or what have you. Like, embrace the weird. Embrace the weird shit.

We are, yeah. Yeah, I know, I embrace the weird. That's it. Okay, I'm glad you agree. Let's move on to some listener questions. These should be fun. Again, I didn't know what to expect when I put this out there, but, man, people were really excited to hear from you, Sarah. So let's start with David. David on Facebook asks. Sarah, thank you so much for being

interviewed. How compatible is witchcraft with organized religion? We didn't really touch on organized religion too much. What are the challenges of your practice with those in your family, friends, work in terms of all that? Yeah. Interesting. That's a good question. I fortunately, my family has been pretty cool. I didn't really, like, I really wasn't out to my family about the stuff that I did until I got a book deal and then was like, surprise, you know, like I do, we have a witch in the family. So, but, you know, having said that, they've been really supportive and really, really cool with everything. So that's been good. For me, in terms of religion and, oh, and in terms of everyone else in my life like I live in New York

City I think like you throw a rock and you hit a witch at this point you know like a lot of girls are into witchcraft these days and you know the witches of Bushwick are very real right so there's so yeah like it's I think becoming far more

accepted in at least in my community and like where I live in terms of organized religion in witchcraft it's a very good question um historically I would say like witchcraft and kind of folk magic A quote that I heard a while ago that I like is, witchcraft begins where the priest ends.

So kind of where organized thought, organized religion, mainstream thought ends, that's when you enter the domain of witchcraft or the dominant of witchcraft. We're going to get like Charles Ford up in here, right? Like that's everything that we do beyond that is what is witchcraft. So while there are things like Wicca that try to kind of make witchcraft into a religion,

I do think that witchcraft is fundamentally kind of an undefinable thing. It is a very fundamentally weird, eclectic sort of thing that doesn't really fit into being an organized religion itself, right? Having said that, I don't think that, like historically, if you look at it, if you're trying to maybe make something like witchcraft compatible with something like Christianity, historically folk magic practitioners use the Bible a lot and use saints a lot if you look at the Psalms. The Book of Psalms is basically a spellbook. You know, there's a lot to be had for that. So if you're trying to kind of synchronize or put those two parts of your life together in terms of Christianity and witchcraft, there's a lot to be had there. There's a lot of really rich history if you look at old grimwares, old spell books, especially if you, if you like the Pendle witches and, you know, Isabel Gowdy, these types of people historically, we're using the Bible and we're using.

biblical texts and magic that references angels and gods and or God and Jesus and these types of figures, right? So they're much more compatible than people might think that they are. In addition to that, I think, you know, there's obviously, I don't know as much about the history of, you know, witchcraft and things like Judaism or Islam, other types of organized religions, but I know that there is a history there and I would definitely look into it. So definitely, I know I know there's a lot of Jewish folk magic out there. I know that there's a lot of Islamic folk magic out there. So do a little digging and you might be surprised at what you find. Yeah, absolutely. And the inner relationship, too, I think is an important part too for sure. Let's move to spells.

Connie on Facebook asks, what do you find to be the most effective way to gather energy for use in casting a spell or charm? Oh, okay. So for me personally, I find this fairly easy for myself, like, kind of gathering energies like charge a spell or charge a thing. What I, the visualization that I usually do is kind of like taking a second, taking a breath, visualizing kind of like a ball of energy, like within myself, like within my core, and then having that emanate out from my hands or from whatever. That's usually the kind of visualization that I do. For me, it's pretty easy to get into that mindset.

I don't take a lot of like chanting and meditating and magicing to get there. But for you, I mean, if it depends, if that's like, if you're trying to latch that on to something or to, you know, further that, I think doing just like a solar like a middle pillar kind of exercise is a very good and like tried and true way to sort of bring that energy up through you. Sometimes what I'll do is if I've tried to like refresh myself, I'll maybe cleanse a little bit, like burn some rosemary, visualize like kind of light coming down on top of me and like soaking that up in some way or like coming up from the ground like a root system. Yeah, that's kind of if I feel like I need a recharge. That's what that's what I'll sometimes do. I'll have like visualizations

that I kind of go through. But I, the basic thing that I do if I'm trying to bless something with energy is a kind of, you know, fall of light emanating out going into the objects. That's what I basically do. Awesome. Visualization is key, for sure. This kind of plays off of that as well. Nikita on Facebook asks, do you have a favorite banishing spell, or is it faster to just tell some people to fuck off?

It's definitely faster. It's self-help people to fuck off. I'm a New Yorker now, so I just tell everyone to fuck off. Yeah. For a banishing spell. Depends on what you want to do, and it depends on how, like, what,

how you want this person out of your life. For me, so, like, one of my favorite protection spells to do is something called fiery wall of protection. It comes from hoodoo and root work. If you look up online, there are recipes you can find, you know,

I have a recipe I like myself. In terms of vanishing, Yeah, so, I mean, look a fiery wall of protection oil. Consider making, consider buying or making some of that and like lining your property or your phone or your computer, however your internet. Because what that will do is it will, it won't harm people unless they try to fuck with you.

And then if they fuck with you, then they will get fucked with. It's like them, you know, it's a tripwire. So I like that. I don't want to directly harm people, but it's like keep back. And I would, I mean, maybe try, maybe try the good, There's like there's nothing wrong with a good old fashion binding, like wrapping someone up in black tape, taking a picture of them, taking black masking tape or a black ribbon and coiling that away from you over the picture and then putting them in the back of your freezer and just getting rid of them that way.

That's a very effective way to go about that. So, yeah, I would say if telling them the fuck off isn't working, maybe try those two ways. Nice. Yep, yeah, I love it. Okay, Mike on Facebook asks, what are some misconceptions people have about witchcraft and magic? We kind of covered that, but yeah, anything specific really coming to mind? I feel like I talked a lot about it, but I'd say, yeah, I mean, just going back into what I said, like trying to make it either all evil or all good, to me, that's oversimplifying it in one direction or another.

Witchcraft is really complicated. It's really old. It's sometimes annoyingly complicated. how much stuff there is out there to learn. But I'm a nerd, so I love it. But yeah, it's, don't make it so simple. It's a very complicated and very weird thing. And I think that that's part of the beauty of it.

Yeah, yeah, embrace it. Chris on Facebook asks, as an Anglo-Saxon Brit, I specifically interested in the relationship to the history and culture of witchcraft in Europe and in England specifically, he says, I know a little about the green man culture here, but I would like to know more about the history of our culture,

cultural beginnings and more particularly of green women. Is this something you're familiar with Sarah? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say if this person is living in England and is trying to get more into kind of cultural, historical, you know, maybe practices of witchcraft, there's a couple sources I would look into. Gemma Gary is one of my favorite authors

when it comes to traditional witchcrafts. She lives in Cornwall. So she is mostly concerned with Cornish witchcraft. And I don't know if that's where this person is. person is living. And I know that Cornwall is kind of, you know, ethically, culturally a little separate from the rest of England. But I would say that's a really great place to start is looking into Gemma Gary and her, her writings, I think traditional witchcraft, Fornish Book of Ways is like her biggest book, but then she has a lot of other books about like The Devil's Dozen is another

really great text. She's someone to check out. There's also the Museum of Witchcraft in Boss Castle, England, which is like, I want to go to so badly. I am not sure if they're open right now, but the people who own that museum have a lot of books that they've published. There's a Graham King, I believe, is a big person who works out of there, and Graham King has written a lot of great books on English magic. This is kind of my wheelhouse, too, is English magic specifically, so I kill you. So, good, Graham King, Gemma Gary, check out Scarlet and Print. They're not only witchcraft.

They're also, you know, paganism and occultism in general, but they're a book publisher out of the UK and they're one of my favorite book publishers. They've written some of my favorite books. So the Scarlet Imprint is an amazing resource to check out. And I think they do events there. I don't know what events are going on in England right now, but they might be doing events in the future.

So keep an eye out if they do because Peter Gray is amazing and Kiss This is amazing. And apocalyptic witchcraft that he wrote a while ago just kind of blew witchcraft wide open. So check those out. And in terms of green women, it's very interesting right because it's like the green man archetype is very much kind of a pan or the generative force of a male generative force of nature i'm not as familiar with

green women being a thing historically but i think that that's because there's there's historically been kind of a dichotomy between like mother nature and then the kind of more active uh characters of mother nature like the green man the devil that kind of thing um which is you know kind of are the green women in a way because they're the ones fornicating with the devil. And that, and that one. And, you know, there's probably other local, local spirits and local legends where you live. So, you know, check out the local historical society in your area and poke around and see what you could find. Awesome.

Yeah, green women. It's a myth in the making. We're starting it right now. I love it. Your own green woman. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Be your own green woman.

Okay. Sean on Twitter asks, is the practice of witchcraft different than someone born into a family of witches? In other words, is witchcraft a learned ability or do you just have it? I guess kind of like, you know, being born with a superpower or something. The understanding of witches is starkly different throughout the world. And I wonder if there are any deeper connections. So yeah, can you be born with these abilities or is it something learned or I'm sure it's everything? Yeah, I like to liken it to music and how some people are just naturally very talented at music or any sort of thing.

But, you know, like if you use it as an example, some people, they pick up a guitar and, you know, in a couple minutes, even if they don't have been taught how to play it, but they'll just be naturally very good at it. And some people have to practice so hard and have to have to go to a million classes. And then they can fairly make like one tune out or one melody out. But they can technically learn how to play the guitar. I think the magic is kind of I'm terrible. Oh my God, I'm awful. So yeah, like

that's also be with math. Like, I think math related. I'm like, I got into magic because I don't. I'm not good at math. Yeah, we are definitely both Leo's. Yeah, same.

So yeah, I, for me, for me, I think magic can be done by anybody. I think if somebody tells you can't do magic, pay them no mind because they don't know what they're talking about.

Anyone could do magic. We all do magic all the time about knowing it. It's about learning how to do it. It's about like, you know, to me the fundamental thing about magic is thoughts are causative. It's like the fundamental truth that I think we can say across magical disciplines, right? And across the world, thoughts are causative. And once you understand that, there's a lot of ways that you can practice that and come into greater understanding and strength in that. So for you, meditating for 10 hours a day might be your flavor.

but also maybe that does nothing for you and maybe you're more ecstatic and you have to dance and you have to get out and do stuff or maybe you're more of a bookworm maybe you're more experiential whatever it is like find the way that works for you to learn this stuff

I definitely don't think you have to be worn into it in order to do it. In terms of global things about witchcraft yeah it's historically witchcraft is not a good thing witchcraft is bad they are the women, the harpies and the forest to you're coming to steal your baby and curse your crops and lay seeds to your village.

Like it's not historically been a good thing. And in most of the world, it is still not a good thing to be a witch or associated with witchcraft. So that's where I do sometimes differentiate witchcraft from folk magic because historically there was that divide. Like a lot of the people we look at historically and say that's a witch, like they're doing witchcraft. They probably wouldn't call themselves a witch or very rarely call themselves a witch. But I think that there's a lot to said for, like I said earlier, like the witch is, the witch begins where the priest ends, all spiritual and medical and scientific and, you know, cultural knowledge that is not stored in kind of the mainstream is stored in the witches and stored in folk magic practitioners

who keep those prayers and the stories and the knowledge alive. So that's, I think, a very, a very common cultural trope across the globe. Gotcha. Okay. All right. So our last listener question here is from Brian on Facebook. And this is something we didn't touch on. I completely forgot to ask you about this is dream magic. Have you ever done any magic work that involves visiting people in their dreams? Or have you ever been visited in a dream by someone that you were sure was projecting themselves into your mind? And then sort of the second part of the question, what are the mechanics of this as far as you know? And how do you view the ethics of projecting yourself into someone dream without their prior consent. Wow, this is, this, there's a lot to unpack here for sure. The ethics of dream magic. Magic. Oh, that's a whole conversation right there. Get my tea ready to sip. So, uh, in terms of magical ethics, what I was saying earlier about how magic is not, or like the witchcraft has not historically been seen as a good thing. I think that sometimes

there are ideas about like consent being violated, the goal. that right that you're doing magic on other people without their consent that's historically what witchcraft is kind of about for for worse right if you're feeling somebody without their no knowledge like is that so bad like is that a bad thing that's sending them without them knowing um or without them presenting that's like a whole bigger conversation to get into but uh you know a lot of that is done without other people knowing that you're doing magic to them uh that's that's part of like what a lot of is the secrecy of it that you don't know you don't want your boss to know that you're binding them so they don't fire you like you don't want them to know that shit uh because it's on their business

quite frankly so right but it's like um so there's there's kind of there's degrees right and then when it comes to love magic that's like a whole other conversation right uh but with dream magic so i i do a lot of dream magic but for me dream magic is um i i i recall my dreams. Like when I wake up, I try to keep a record of my dreams and I try to keep a dream journal or a dream log of some sort because I do think that there is usually like wisdom or like spirit guides or other people that are coming through in my dreams. And kind of like there's a texture difference that I think I can tell. I don't know if people know what I'm talking about. But for me, there are dreams that feel like just dreams where it's like,

okay, I watched this movie last night and now I'm dreaming. I'm in that movie. Like that's what that dream is. I can understand that. But then there are dreams where you just know that it's different. Like the vibe is just completely different. It's like touching silk as opposed to touching velvet, right? That's how I liken it. So I think dream magic can be very difficult to do because you're doing it when you're unconscious. But I think that the more conscious you get, like the more you write down your dreams, the more you will be able to remember your dreams. Therefore, the better that you will be at lucid dreaming, the better you'll be at doing active magic in your dreams. I'm still not at the point where I'm completely lucid in my dreams,

but I have gotten to the point where in my dream, if I don't like something, I can know that I'm dreaming and like go over to a different room or go to a different scenario. So that's, I have gotten, I have, from personal experience, I can attest that you can get better at dreaming by by recording your dreams and being conscious about it. I believe that I have had people project into my dreams without getting too into it. I have definitely had some like bad breakups where I have like seen I've like get out of my fucking head you you X of mine like I've definitely had that happen to me before and I don't know if they're meaning to do it I don't think they were but I'm just like oh my god you're still here um you know so there's there's parts

where I'm like I can definitely see that that's kind of happened uh I have not really projected myself into other people's dreams there is um at least without I've never constantly done that. A big thing that occult practitioner, like friends of mine and myself will do is if I, this is kind of just an unspoken rule that we have. But if I ever see any fellow witches or anybody in my dream, I always tell them. I'm like, okay, you were in my dream last night and this happened. I think you need to know this because to me, that's kind of a sign. Like, like, that's just a good thing. It's just good to tell people that they were in your dreams, because what if that's important? Usually in my experience it is. Like, I had a friend who was a practitioner

or down in New Orleans. And I had a very weird dream where he was there and there was a like serial killer outside the door who wanted to talk to him. And I was like, this just feels weird. And I literally woke up in the middle of the night and I texted him and I was like, don't trust anybody you talk to right now. Like if there is a guy, if you're like walking around and there is a guy like that like wants to talk to you, do not talk to them right now. Like this just happened in my dream. And he literally called me and it was like the second you texted me that somebody came up and for a light and like on on a cigarette and like later when i got back home like that guy like started a fight with someone and like so talk to your talk about your dreams with your friends

if they're in if they're in your dreams um sorry i'm totally i'm totally rambling now uh no no that's really interesting yeah i'd say a good tech good tech to check out if you're trying to get better at dream magic is look up um Icelandic runes there's a lot of Icelandic runes magic to do with dreams and lucid dreaming and seeing people in dreams and projecting into dreams. It's all pretty available online, but there's a lot of resources out there about that. But there are, there are runic stabs that can be used for dream magic that I have been looking into a lot recently. So check out Icelandic magic if you are looking for a good way in for dream magic,

because there's a lot of it, a lot of it there. Interesting. Yeah, I know. We could do a whole probably another two hours. Yeah, I'm sure it would lead to Freddie Kruger somehow, too. I don't know. Well, that's the whole cover thing. Like, he's a Tulsa, probably.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's do it. Let's start with another two hours. No, I'm just kidding. All right. I don't know. I'm something else in a couple hours.

But, like, you know, let's go. Let's do it. The marathon. Are we not creators? Are we not creators? That is so true. Oh, okay. So, Halloween.

I mean, the pumpkin in the room, I guess, while, you know, it's kind of, it's going to be a weird Halloween for a lot of, you know, adolescence and whatnot, not trick-or-treating and a lot of traditions are going to change. Just say, yeah. I'll just be honest. It's going to fucking suck. But that doesn't mean. that there's not other ways. And I'm sure as a witchcraft practitioner, there are certain things you do

during this special time of the year seasonally. Yeah, what does Halloween mean to you as a person who practices witchcraft? Do you have any special, like, rituals or traditions? Yeah, so this is one of those things that very much changed when they moved to New York, right? Because, again, in the past, it was... So a lot of people will say that South...

or Halloween is like the witch's new year. The way that I kind of look at it is that I don't think of it as the new year. I just think of it as the end of the year. Like I think of it as the actual like death of the year. And I don't see things kind of starting up again until like May. I just think that the winter months belong to the dead. That is not the time for the living. Like that's just time for other other beings kind of take over the world for those three months.

And then, you know, the living take it back over with Daltane. That's how I always kind of historically understood it. because that was what was happening in the land. Like there's nothing is alive right now, right? And all of a sudden, you know, you have to kind of get used to that and like, have to work with that in a different way.

In New York, it's become much more about ancestry. It's not so much about the harvest, the death of the year, the embrace of kind of, you know, the kind of winter spirit. It has become a little bit more focused on ancestor practices, I do a daily practice, like I said, with my ancestors where I leave like a glass of water for them. I kind of have made Halloween into more of a time where I do a bigger kind of honoring of my ancestors. Like I'll leave out bigger offerings.

I will, I'll save longer prayers, that kind of thing. That's what I do personally and how I kind of reckon it with it of like a holiday for the dead. I think for people this year, if they're, I mean, death is very close to all of us now in a way that it has not. in maybe in a very long time. You know, the red death has come upon the land. And there's, yeah, a lot of people this year have lost something. It doesn't necessarily have to be a loved one or somebody that you know, but we've all lost a job or money or time or a relationship or a dream or, yeah, or a loved one.

Like we've all lost something this year. So I would say, go it is not fun. maybe take some time this Halloween to embrace the dead a little bit and make some time to actually actively mourn the dead and mourn what you have lost this year because we've all lost something. So, yeah, I would say this Halloween really make it about the dead because that's what this year has been about. And if there's no one to pray for the dead, they hang out and they linger. And we don't want that. So make some time to say a little prayer for those things that have passed and get them to move along. because we're entering into a new world

and we want this old one kind of rushed out. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I'm recalling there was a quote from the play, the history boys, where I believe it was the professor at the time said the best way to forget something is to commemorate it.

And I get that. It's like, yeah, it's a way of sort of symbolizing a person, but it's not that, person. So you're not really remembering them as a person who had been a mortal at one point and now isn't. So I like that idea of taking the time to mourn and actually work through that and remember someone. I mean, I saw a photo you posted recently on your Instagram of a child. And this photo was in an antique store and was just cast away to be forgotten. And then

bought, but that was a person. Yeah, you found him. So, and that's what it's about, like, the person, you know, we've all, if there's anything we all have in common, it's we're all going to die. So I mean, that let's look at it that way. Yeah. You know, the thing I love about Halloween is, you know, you look at other holidays and you look at other times of the year. And not only are the emphasis is very much on be happy, God damn it. Like, it's Christmas time. Why aren't you happy. Not only is it very like toxicly happy, but there's a modernization that I think has happened with a lot of holidays. Like it's very easy to bring other, you know, other holidays and other traditions into the modern world. You look for out of Halloween. It's like we're carving gourds

and we're putting out pumpkins and we're putting out skeletons and there are witches and there are crows and there are vampires and it's all these like legends and demons. It's like all of the, all of the things from the past suddenly come back in this very. It's very. real way. And to me, that's like what makes it so special, right? Is it's all the, all the spooky, creepy, dark, eerie stuff has its day, right? Where it's like, no, no, no, we're here all the time, but this is our time. Like, this is our time to shine. Like, you're going to be dead one day. You're going to, you're going to be in this one day. Life is not all happy. It is filled with monsters. There are monsters all around us, and this is like the day to celebrate that. And I think that there's like,

I don't know. I hope in this time of COVID, we can maybe look around at these symbols of Halloween, where Halloween comes from, maybe embrace some of that traditional sort of looking at the holiday of like, yeah, this is a fucking holiday of death. And we just went through a fucking pandemic. And we're still in it. Like, it's a holiday about monsters. And my God, are there monsters out there right now? Like, there's something I think that Halloween teaches us to embrace about all of this and reckon with that I think could be really powerful to tap into for people this year. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, just, yeah, embrace it.

Yeah. Do the skeleton dance. Come on. Do the skeleton dance. Do the sexy. It's our time. Like, if you're listening to do a weirdo, and this is our time. Get it going on.

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Well, hey, we can't let you go without talking about where people can't. get the book and I guess kind of, yeah, wrapping up with both the book and your work, what's like the one thing you want to get across to people when it comes to looking into witchcraft, if they want to get involved, whether it's through witchcraft or activism or both, what's the one thing you want people to really take away from what you're trying to put out

in the world? I think, that's a good question. Wow. I think that for witchcraft and magic and those types of things, don't listen to the gatekeepers. You can do this. They don't feel like you have to buy a bunch of stuff or you have to take a thousand classes or you have to follow a guru. Like, go and read the books that you need to read. I'd say if you can't get your hands, if you're like maybe young and you have your parents buy books for you. If you're like, I don't know. If you don't have access to a bunch of things, you're like, I don't know if you don't have access to a bunch of things. of witchcraft books or you don't know where to start with those, go read a book on folk for, go read a book on mythology. All the real shit is going to be there and you can, and you can branch out from there. Read books on herbalism on geography. Like that's, that's just as witchy as any actual witchcraft book that is out there. So, you know, go out and find that stuff and just let it, like, find something that you like and that are passionate about and let that

guide you on the path and just go from there. I think when it comes to politics, I mean, I would say the same thing with politics that I went about magic, that you actually have incredible power. We have incredible power. The world can be very different. It is very, like, we do not have to settle for the world the way that it is through magic, through politics, through both of these things. We truly can change the world and we truly can demand the world that we deserve. And I think that we all have to become a lot more comfortable demanding that the world that we exist in meet the expectations that we have for it inside of ourselves and making that a reality. So, yeah, go fuck shit up with magic, kids. You crazy kids. Yeah, crazy kids. Get off my lawn. I love it.

Well, okay, so the book really, really hit me keenly, Sarah. I have to admit, like, I knew nothing about it going in. And now I feel like so much was demystified for me in terms of what this plays in the grand scheme of things. So I have to think. you for the book. Where can we find the book? And I'm not letting you go before talking about the podcast that you're starting back up. So yeah, go for it. All my all my stuff. So the book is Revolutionary Witchcraft, a guide to magical activism. You can buy it through the publisher running press. You can buy it through a bookshop, which will help support your local bookstores, indie bound. You can buy it through. There's a very small company called Amazon

that you may have heard of. You can buy it there. If you don't want to buy it on Amazon, Just buy it somewhere else and leave me a review on Amazon because that really helps small authors. But yeah, you could, it's done really well in local bookstores. So check out your local bookstore and see if it's there. Because local bookstores are really hurting right now. So try to buy through. So support your local bookstores. If you don't have a local bookstore in your area, buy it through bookshop and give the money to a local bookstore somewhere that you link.

For myself, you can find me on Instagram at City Mystic on Twitter at underscore Sarah underscore Lions. and La Cazoooo is my, like, it's my Twitter name. I'm funny. And what else? I am starting up my own podcast. It is called Pop Cult. It is Pop, C-V-L-T, so the V, the U is a V. It's my friend Owen and I, and we're just going to be talking about magic and paranormal stuff and culture and politics,

but from a proletioner's perspective. So not just talking about magic as if it's like a thing on a shelf somewhere, but actually people who do it. And I'm really excited about that. So check out Pop Cult. And in terms of other things, I am also going to be doing a fundraiser with Sacramento DSA on October 30th, where we're going to be talking actually about UFOs, which is again. So if you've liked this, we're going to be talking about the Sacramento UFO flap of 1897. Wow. Yeah.

So apparently there was a big railroad strike that changed California history. And all of these striking railroad workers saw a bunch of UFOs while they were striking. And it was like a huge thing. And it was recorded in the local paper. And yeah, so we're going to be talking about that. And I'm learning a lot about it. I had no idea this happened. So if you want to learn more about Victorian UFO flaps, tune in for that on October 30th, the Sacramento DSA.

Oh, that's awesome. I definitely want to see that. Yeah. I'm not familiar with that one. That's pretty cool. I feel like I've failed as a euphologist. That's so cool. Well, apparently it's very, I mean, this is a whole other thing,

but apparently they saw them as zeppelins in the sky. They didn't see them as airships. Yeah. So very fascinating. So if you want to learn more about unidentified flying airships, then, yeah. All you steampunk officiators as well, yep. I'm going to, um, I'm going to, um,

And here, Sarah, with a quote of yours that probably kind of encapsulates everything we talked about. And that's, quote, the earth is under attack. As witches, we must speak the words the dying earth cannot. And I think that just, that says so much about what we've been through throughout history and where we are today. And I think with people like you fighting that fight and getting involved and actually putting action to words or spells or rituals or rituals, is where it's at. And I think if people can take anything from this today, it's go do something. You know, we all talk. We all get trapped in these echo chambers, but like have the conversation, but then go do something about it. And I think our earth, literal earth, needs that now more than

ever. So I have to thank you for everything you've done and for coming on here today and talking extensively about a topic that completely blows my mind and something I want to continue pursuing. So thank you so much for coming on somewhere in the skies. This was so awesome. Thank you so much for having me on. Happy Halloween, everyone. Yes, happy Halloween. And this will not be the last time, I'm sure.

So thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. You've got to pick up every stick. Must be the season of the win. Must be the season of the win. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.