Somewhere in the Skies - Jason McClellan: Beers, Ghosts, and UFOs

Episode Date: September 4, 2017

On episode 21 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan leaves his home of New York City for a cross-country move to Los Angeles, reflecting on his decade-long residence in the city that never sleeps. He then introduces listeners to his new Patreon Campaign! He is then joined by Jason McClellan for an "in studio" conversation about UFOs, the paranormal, and belief systems v.s. hard science. It was a fascinating discussion as the two cracked open a few Harpoon UFO Beers in Jason's Times Square hotel room in Manhattan. They also talk about their awkward run ins with both Gillian Anderson and David Duchovny! To become a patron and help support the show, please visit: www.patreon.com/SomewhereSkies Guest Bio: Jason McClellan is a UFO journalist and the producer/co-host of the web series Spacing Out! He is also the web content manager and staff writer for OpenMinds.tv, and a co-organizer and technical producer of the International UFO Congress. As a founding member of Open Minds, Jason served as a writer and editor for the now defunct Open Minds magazine. He has appeared on Syfy, NatGeo, and, most recently, he co-starred on H2’s Hangar 1: The UFO Files. He is the author of Only Weirdos See UFOs: An Introduction to the Public's Misperception of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and Extraterrestrial Life His work can be found at: www.RoguePlanet.tv - - - This episode is brought to you by HelloFresh. To learn more and to receive 50% of your first box, CLICK HERE and use the promo code: SOMEWHERE50 Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Email: [e-mail] Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Episode Edited by Jane Palomera Moore SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is produced by THIRD KIND PRODUCTIONS, in association with Antica Productions Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Start spreading the new. I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of it. New York, New York. The music says it all. What's up, guys? Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies.

I'm your host, Ryan Sprague, and I have officially moved cross-country from New York City to Los Angeles. trade in one crazy city for the next. But I'm so excited to start this new journey in California. But make no mistake, New York City is the greatest city in the world, and I was beyond fortunate to make it my home for over a decade. From waiting tables at Bubba Gump Shrimp Company, to working at the late show at David Letterman.

I did and saw it all. I had countless successes and failures, but I wouldn't have traded it for the world. But now, it's time for a change. And with that change, we'll come to you. tremendous opportunities for someone in the skies. In ways, I can't quite talk about yet, but rest assured, things are going to get kicked up a few notches out here on the West Coast.

I look forward to sharing all of that with you soon. But first, I have some extremely exciting news to share with all of you. I've officially launched a Patreon campaign for Somewhere in the Skies. For those of you who don't know what Patreon is, it's basically an ongoing Kickstarter, where you give to the show what you think it's worth. You can either give a one-time donation or monthly contributions. For every level of contribution, there are different rewards that I give back to you, such as bonus content, bonus episodes, Skype meetings with me, and other members.

At certain levels, you also get to pick my topics and guests all the way up to coming on the show and being either my guest or co-host. My other big announcement is that I've officially launched the Somewhere in the Sky Store, T-shirts, tank tops, hoodies, mugs, phone and laptop cases, stickers and notebooks, all of it, guys. They're all available now at Somewhere in the Skies.com with an amazing original design by Eduardo Lobo. This merchandise will also be a reward for certain levels of the Patreon. The reason for this Patreon is to make the show better, both in quality and quantity. I love doing Somewhere in the Skies, but as it grows, it becomes more expensive to maintain, and I pay out of pocket.

for all of it. Your support will help offset costs, but also will allow me to get better equipment and even travel to investigate, research, and interview. I want to make the show worth not only every second of your time, but every penny you put into it. Somewhere in the skies will always be free to consume. But this gives you the opportunity to help me when you can. I would love to make this my full-time job and focus every ounce of energy and moment I can on the show. So, Please consider becoming a Patreon today by visiting patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Again, that's patreon.com backslash somewhere skies. Thank you so much for your consideration and help me continue searching for those elusive answers somewhere in the skies.

Now, on to this week's guest. Before I left New York, I had the amazing opportunity to sit down with my good friend and colleague, Jason McClellan, who happened to be in town for a few days. Many of you may be familiar with Jason, but if not, here's a little about him. Jason is a UFO journalist and producer and co-host of the acclaimed web series, Spacey Now. He served as the web content manager for OpenMinds.tv, and was the co-organizer and technical producer of the international UFO Congress. He has appeared on sci-fi, Nat Geo, and most recently was featured on H-2's Hanger 1, The UFO Files. He is the author of the recently released book, Only Weirdos, See UFFO.

An introduction to the public's misperception of unidentified aerial phenomena and extraterrestrial life. Jason and I sit back, crack open a few UFO beers in Times Square, and talk UFOs, the paranormal, and the heavy impact of belief systems versus science when it comes to investigating these strange topics. So, without further ado, here is my last episode to officially take place in the city that never sleeps, and a perfect guest to send me off. Jason McClellan. is Ryan Sprague here for Somewhere in the Skies, but that is not it. We're also here today with Jason McClellan, my good buddy, my colleague, fellow friend. He's here in New York,

visiting for a few days for some top secret projects. Top secret. Very top secret. But we are together in New York. This is awesome. I was very surprised and we were actually able to make it happen. You know, I'm leaving for Los Angeles in two days and you just happened to be here. or one of the days in free. I just happened to be here, and I just happened to be in L.A. in a couple days from now. Absolutely. We'll cross paths again.

This is crazy. It's pretty awesome. We try to do this every time I come to New York, and it doesn't always work out. It sometimes works out. And I think the last time we did a podcast in New York, we got nice and drunk together. We were very drunk.

Maureen was there as well? Yes, yes, she was. We attended the New York Comic-Con. New York Comic-Con, that's right. That was pretty awesome. That was awesome. Yeah, wasn't that when you guys met Jillian Anderson? Well, I wouldn't say met.

But we certainly got a photo with her. Yeah. But, man. Yeah. No, those things are weird. And you always want to, like, strike up a conversation, obviously. And I was wearing a T-shirt with a big alien head on it. And I was all, yeah, come on.

I want to talk to Jillian about aliens because I know she's into it. But, no, you're, like, herded like cattle. They're all next. You go in there, wrap your arm around your photo, and you're pushed off. It's so awkward. Yeah. It's really awkward. And I'm sure it's awkward for them.

I mean, you know how it is. On a very small scale, you know. We experience that sometimes too at conferences where people want to come up and have photos and get autographs and things like that. And, you know, it's very very flattering, but it gets exhausting too. Right. Like where you just have this stream of people and after a while, you know, you're writing the same inscription or saying the same thing or, you know, it just gets repetitive and you're all, okay. You start thinking about what you're going to have for dinner. Exactly.

You're all, all, all right, next, next, next, move on. I want to get out of here and get to the bar. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, I feel bad. It's not fair to the people who want to meet you and want to have a meaningful conversation with you. But after a while, just the lines of people, it wears on you. So I get it.

I get it to you. And I, I always go back to, um, when I met David Dukovny. You know, I'd been dreaming about this moment for, you know, practically me, my whole life since X-Files came out. And he was doing a off-broadway play here in New York. And I was so excited. It was by my favorite playwright, starring, like, my favorite actor. And I was so excited.

The play went on. And the last moment of the play, I specifically remember. It's a moment where DuCovny is supposed to, like, be shaking his fist at God. And it's powerful. And it's supposed to be this big moment. And you could tell there's supposed to be, like, a super quick blackout. Yeah. And to play.

So he does it. You know, he's all revved up. He does his last. line and the lights never go out. Oh no. So he's just standing there in the spotlight doing his last line and then he just sort of, you know, slowly puts his hands down, kind of looks around, and it just walks off stage. It was so awkward. The audience didn't know whether to clap or not. We didn't know if the play was over. It was just one of those moments. It was clear what was supposed to happen. Oh, that's too bad. So afterwards, I brought

my, you know, my big X-Files book to get signed by him. My I want to believe poster. I had this, you know, this fantasy in my head that he'd be like, oh, you're a true X-Files friend. Of course I'm going to stop and talk to you. Yeah. So I go out there and there's just a shit ton of middle-aged women waiting to meet him from Californication.

Yep. And I see him coming down the hallway. So I open the door for him. I'm like, oh, this is it. This is my end. Holding the door for him. brushes right past me. You could tell you he was in a shit mood because the play did not go so low.

He, like, scribbled in one person's book and got in his car in life. So my heart was just crushed. Like, you have these expectations of celebrities or people that you want to meet. They've been such a big part of your life. And then you have to realize, like, sometimes they just have off nights. Or sometimes they just don't want to stand there and talk for hours. Yeah, exactly. You know, they don't necessarily owe that to anyone.

That's right. You know, he did his job. He did the play. He could go home if he wants. Yeah. You know, so I feel like those moments are tough. So I'm glad you guys got to get a photo with Gillian, but also at the same time, it doesn't surprise me that you didn't have like an hour to chat or anything like that.

And, you know, to be fair to her, I'm sure if it were up to her, because she's the nice person, she would have entertained some conversations. but it's always the handlers. You know, you're at the mercy of. So, you know, when they're pushing you along, you've got to follow the rules. That's a good point. So you just follow the orders that are being barked at you, and she, like, smiled politely and nodded.

And I thought, okay, well, it was what it was. I enjoyed it. That was that. Yeah. It's a good point. Oh, we might add that we are currently drinking UFO beer. Jason is nice enough to purchase this for the two of us. Yes, we are drinking.

UFO beer. We are big fans of UFO beer. If you haven't had UFO beer, it's made by Harpoon Brewery. They have a UFO line, mini flavors. What do we got? Raspberry, huckleberry, half of Izen, and a white ale. Oh, it's so good. So, yeah, fantastic beer. We love UFO, so thank you, UFO beer. Brought to you by UFO beer. Maybe. If they want to sponsor us, we certainly welcome a UFO sponsorship. So yeah, I guess this is a good, time for any of my listeners who aren't familiar with you, Jason, which I find hard to believe. Let's, I guess, maybe dive into how we got connected. How did our relationship blossom? Absolutely. So it started in a lucid dream I had one night when I had a raging boner.

No, okay, that wasn't the actual story. I am not cutting that out. I'm not saying that didn't happen. But so the way you and I were introduced, this goes back to open minds days. And, and, And we had launched the Open Minds magazine, for those of you not aware Open Minds was a internationally distributed print magazine. I don't remember how many years we put that out, but it was out for a few years and distributed around the world. And in my opinion was the best UFO magazine ever. Absolutely. I was a total fan boy. But, yeah, so we were looking for writers, and we happened to come across a gentleman by the name of Ryan Sprague, who was very interested in writing for the magazine. Maybe a little too interesting.

So we took a chance on Ryan, and that is a fantastic mistake we made. The best mistake we've ever made. No, no. And that's how Ryan and I met. And then, you know, we morning and I interviewed you on Spacing Out. Yes. And our relationship blossomed and flourished. It's been pretty awesome.

You know, when you get involved in the UFO topic, I don't think you really think about what could come of that. It's not just searching for answers to these questions we all have, but you meet people along the way and you make friends. It is a community. And sometimes that community can be pretty fractured, but there are also those moments when you make, I think, lifelong friends. And I think that's what happened with you, me, Maureen. Yeah, you have those connections pretty fast. I mean, you can get a good read on people, especially in this field. And, you know, you can tell when you're generally aligned with somebody, yeah, you're.

You get a good feel for people pretty fast. And with you, I don't know, I can't speak for you, but I know. For me, we seem to click pretty fast. So, you know, just from the first time we started working together, I knew that we were pretty well aligned. And we became lifelong friends. Yeah, and I mean, we have other interests as well. You know, we both like love music.

Yeah. The punk scene. Yeah. The ska scene, all these different things, you know. And UFO beer. Brought to you by UFO beer. Brought to you by UFO beer. once again.

Yes. But yeah, no, I sort of, when I learned about Open Minds and that there was an actual company that was doing UFO work, I knew I had to be a part of it somehow in any small way. That's when I started volunteering at the conferences, you know, spending 12 hours a day behind a dark curtain, you know, with headphones on. Yep. And, you know, glamorous life of UFO conferences. Oh, yeah, big time.

You know, getting that pee break in between. each speaker. If you're lucky. Yeah, if you're lucky. But I wouldn't have traded it for the world. It was, I got to see so many interesting people give talks that, you know, the mainstream will never see. And while that's sad, it makes me feel very special that I got to, like, experience that.

I got to see Bob Lazar in the flesh. You got to put the fucking microphone on Bob Lazar. Yeah, that's awesome. It was incredible. Those are the moments that I'll never forget. That's right. And we've had many of those. I feel throughout the years as well.

Absolutely. Speaking about conferences, you just got back from a conference, right? In Nova Scotia? Nova Scotia. Wow. Canadian UFO conference. That's something I have not done. So how was that experience? It was incredible.

I didn't know quite what to expect. I was speaking on a topic that I am definitely not an expert in, and that's the Bermuda Triangle and other triangles throughout the world. I had written briefly about it in an article for Jim Harold, and someone caught wind of it at this small town in Nova Scotia, and they're like, why do you talk about this? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? So I got out of my comfort zone.

I did extensive research, and I was able to find five other mysterious triangles throughout the world that had similar incidents that happened similar to the Bermuda Triangle, planes crashing, ships disappearing, people vanishing, cryptids, UFOs, everything you can possibly think of. I made some connections, but for the most part, it was more about how we sort of shape these mysteries into a triangle. Okay. You know, when one weird thing happens somewhere, oh, well, it's between this town, this town, and this town, it's a triangle. So I think we do have the Bermuda Triangle to thank for that.

Every small town wants their own triangle. So it is more of a sociological study at that point, I think, which I found just is intriguing, and that's kind of what I brought forward in the talk. Interesting. Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I don't know. I don't know about you, but I think as humans, we tend to force things on things that aren't necessarily there. one thing I'm thinking of in particular is our friend Chuck Zuckowski

and something you recently talked about, the paranormal highway, you know, looking at a line, a parallel line, a line of latitude, where mysterious things happen to fall along this point of line across the country. They just so happen to line up perfectly on this line. They don't actually, you know, some of it's a stretch. But is there something there? There certainly could be because when you look at it, when you hear the evidence, you hear what he's identified, you're on, well, there could be

something to that. Why, look at that. Area 51's right on that. Interesting. But, you know, who knows? Who knows if we're, you know, just forcing that, forcing something that doesn't exist, you know, onto something that makes sense to us, or is there something genuinely there? I think that's a good way to look at it in terms of you have all these people who talk about lay lines,

you know, like, oh, it falls on this. It's got to be. It's got to be. I think we tend to want to simplify things, put them in a box. You and I deal with this in the UFO field a lot, that the only answer for UFOs is aliens. Sure. And we both know that that probably shouldn't say we know. We're not only keen to the ETH, the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

There could be a million different reasons for UFOs in the sky, under the water, wherever they might be. but for so long when people think of UFOs they think of aliens and I think that's that's extremely limiting and it's tough it's tough to get people away from that right every TV show you know wants you to think it's aliens right and we're here saying look it could be something else it's yeah that's that's tough to get people to understand that and especially people in the UFO field you know because a lot of there's a lot of belief there. A lot of wanting to believe that there are extraterrestrials and not just that

there are extraterrestrials, but the mysterious things we're seeing in the sky are courtesy of extraterrestrials. That is certainly a possibility and I always want to stress to people that that is definitely a possibility. But we're responsible in looking at this stuff and we're saying that 95% of all UFO settings can be explained in those 95% of UFOs, a lot of that stuff is you have to remember those are things that people are seeing and reporting as UFOs or things that they don't recognize in the sky so even some of those and the remaining 5% could be extraterrestrial but they could also be some of those things that are identified in the 95% but things in the sky can look super weird because there's a lot of stuff up there that on a day-to-day basis

we're not used to seeing so you know people get tired of of hearing things explained away as Chinese lanterns. But Chinese lanterns aren't something that everybody sees in the sky every day. When you see a Chinese lantern in the sky, it looks weird. When you see a rocket launch in the sky, it looks weird. When you have certain environmental, you know, weather conditions with clouds or whatever the situation might be, that's going to affect how something appears in the sky. So you might say, oh, I've seen a rocket launch and it didn't look like that. Well, that was one rocket launch. That was one rocket launch. You could have different situations.

There's so many variables. There's so many variables that happen all the time. And blimps, weather balloons, missiles, you know, all sorts of things that are happening in the sky. You know, you have skydivers with flares on their feet. You know, airplanes that there are specific companies and specific skydiving companies who specialize in doing nighttime dives with flares and fireworks and stuff to create these nighttime effects.

Which is pretty freaking cool. And it looks awesome. But again, it's not something you see all the time. So when you see it in the sky, holy shit, that is so bizarre. I've never seen anything do like that. And you say, and I know about those skydivers who have flares on their feet, and they can't go up and do loop-de-loops and stuff. So it can't be skydivers.

But there are plane companies that specialize in that, too. So it's just, you know, there's a lot out there that people in the general public aren't aware of that exists, and it's not something you see on a day-to-day basis. So when you do see it, it's fucking weird. and you're going to go, holy shit, that's a UFO. But there's just a lot that people aren't accustomed to seeing. So, you know, people get really excited when they see weird stuff. And I know I'm guilty of it too.

Like being in the UFO field, seeing everything that I've seen for so many years, like, I'm still guilty of that. When I see something that immediately in my mind that I don't have an explanation for, I get giddy. I'm a schoolboy. I'm jumping up and down. I'm like aliens. But, you know, you have to step back and understand that there is a lot there that has rational explanation. But at the same time, knowing that, and I have to tell myself this, but knowing everything I know and being able to identify everything I can identify, I always have to remind myself that just because I see something and I think I know what it is, that's just my opinion. That's my thought at the time based on the information that I have.

it doesn't rule out aliens. That's still a possibility. The key here is to be open to possibilities, and you can still, unless you can absolutely write it off, you can always entertain that extraterrestrial possibility. Yeah. Well, let's take, for instance, when I was at this conference, this past weekend, we did a ghost hunt,

and it was something I'd never done before. Okay. And I will admit, I don't necessarily, Not big on ghosts. I've never had really anything I would consider a legitimate paranormal experience. You have to go go to something with me. Yeah. I will believe in aliens.

I believe in UFOs. But like when it comes to ghosts, I don't know if it's a fear of believing in it. So I was really closed off when we went to do this ghost phone. And I think that has a lot to do with it too. Like if you're closed off immediately to something, if you're that skeptical. even if something legitimate or genuinely paranormal or just anomalous happened you just would brush it off

or find some sort of prosaic answer for it but I will tell you there are things that happened at that ghost hunt that completely changed like I wouldn't say my beliefs sure but completely swayed me the other way that something really weird happened I felt, I smelled, I saw, and I experienced things that were not normal and were foreign to me. And that was pretty life-altering, I'd say.

And it happened within like five seconds. Yeah, that's awesome. And that changed everything for me. That's awesome. I'm not saying I'm like going to go out and go son and start talking to spirits. Right. I think that's another thing we have to keep in mind. when you have these experiences, they're extremely personal.

And your tuner, whatever that may be, if it's in your heart, in your brain, in your perception of what you're experiencing, that's you. That's only you. That doesn't account for everyone else in the room and what they're experiencing in that moment. So I think that's interesting too. We run into that with the UFO field too. People see something in the sky. One person sees one thing. One hears another. One sees this. It's a lot. It's, It's interesting. Not something that I've definitely seen and experienced firsthand with ghost hunts is how different it is for everybody. You know, I've been in the same room standing right next to somebody who has experienced something and, I guess, two people next to me, experience the same thing.

And nobody else in this room of like 15 people experience the same thing. What are you talking about? But that happens. And it's kind of a common thing. where it's just isolated to certain people for some reason. And it's fascinating. I could go off on all sorts of tangents with ghosts, though. I get so upset with ghosts and ghost hunting.

And like with UFOs, man, I mean, there's a lot of assumption that goes on. Yeah. You know, and with ghosts, like, number one, I think a lot of people who do ghost hunts are very, I don't know. If I were a ghost, I would be offended at how, like, ghost hunters talk down to ghosts. Like, they're, like, juveniles or something. Like, move this pencil. Or like, we're not here to harm you. Now, this thing in front of me is so you can tell us you're here.

If you're here, would you please make it light up? Like, seriously. Yeah. If you really think these are, you know, people who died and, you know, or adults and whatever, like talk to them like adults. Right. Like, stop being demeaning. Stop treating them like children. Like, have a normal conversation with them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And say, look, hey, we're here. We know you're dead. whatever. We'd love to have interaction with you. We have a recorder here. If you talk, we'll be able to hear you later. We can't hear you right now for whatever reason. But if you

have a conversation, say that, and we'll hear it later. That'd be cool. Thanks. But, like, talk to them like normal people. And also, the people who usually say, like, we're not here to hurt you. They're the ones who are the pussies. You know, they're the ones who are going to freak out and run away if anything happens. Like, they're saying that, and they're worried the ghosts

are going to hurt them. Like, we're not going to hurt you. What are you going to do to a ghost? Give me a break. It's a good point. I mean, it's kind of really annoyed the ghosts. Really? Did you just say that? You're not here to hurt me? You got to wonder if aliens are thinking the same thing. Exactly.

Exactly. Right? Communicate with them. It's like, come on. And again, what ghosts? We're just assuming these things are quote-unquote ghosts. Like, who's to say they're not aliens? Yeah.

Like, people in the UFO world love to talk about interdimensional beings and all this stuff. Like, we're talking about the unknown, things that we don't know. We're encountering these mysterious things, things that we can't explain, things that we don't really understand. We kind of understand some of the interactions we have with them and, you know, what other people have said. But how do we really know that they're ghosts, their spirits of dead people? Like, could they be interdimensional beings or, you know, aliens who are here who are like cloaked, like the predator? Like, what are they? We don't know, but, you know, we're interacting with something that is not us, that's something mysterious.

And so, I don't know. Could it be Bigfoot? I mean, it could be like all sorts of things, you know. So to like put everything in that one pile of ghost, you know, that's weird to me. Just like where, I mean, we like to compartmentalize things and put things in nice packages. You know, just like people with UFOs. We like to think that UFOs are extraterrestrial. And we like to think that aliens are either all good or all bad.

you know, we want to put a label on something and have it be consistent. Yeah. And it's never that way. No. And I don't think if we ever find an answer, let's say to the UFO mystery, that it's going to be that easy, you know. It absolutely can't be. Certainly if it's not, you know, the narrative we're trying to put together, you know, and that the universe is vast and there's an infinite, you know, infinite life out there,

all sorts of varying communities. and types of life and, you know, all of their motives and interests and things are going to be different just among individual civilizations. I mean, again, when we talk about astrobiology and extraterrestrial life and intelligent extraterrestrial life, we are basing that off of life as we know it. And what we understand is life and civilizations and communities because we have nothing else to base it on. So we're using human ideas and putting that on something else that's most likely not going to be human at all or human-like. But that's what we have to base things on.

So we look at that and just using that as an example, looking at humanity, obviously there's so much variation with humans, let alone countries and cultures and all of that. We're all different. We all have different interests. We all have different motives for doing whatever we do. So I don't, I will never understand why people have a difficult time grasping that or fixating on the question of, are aliens good or are they bad? Like, I think the easy answer is yes. Yes.

That's a good point. Some are going to be good. Some are going to be bad. Like, if they're not just like the Borg, you know, a collective mind, like they're going to be different. And we like to believe that there are, you know, all sorts of multitudes. of races and civilizations out there. So obviously there's going to be a lot of everything.

So the reason for being here, you know, or aliens coming to eat us, are they coming to take our resources, are they coming to be friends, are they coming to warn us of nuclear war? What are they doing? Yes, all of that. Like, you know, if there really are all these civilizations out there

that are able to travel through space and are visiting Earth, like I think the answer is yes to all of that. I think it's a bit of everything. Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, we have, like, the contactee movement back in the 60s and 70s preaching, you know, that these aliens are here to stop nuclear war, to help the environment.

And it's like, really, really. They came from vast distances. They have no idea how to communicate with us. They, you know, their makeup is completely different. Their ethical scale could be non-existent. And they're going to come here to be like, you need to stop putting candy wrappers on the lawn. That's another one of my pet peeves, dude. So the same thing probably had with ghosts and, like, ghost hunting shows and in horror movies, too.

Just the issue with communication. Like, in horror movies, you always see it with ghosts. Like, they'll, like, mumble and make noises and grunt and groan and freak people out and do all sorts of questionable things. And then in the end, they'll finally, like, communicate with somebody and tell them what they really want. They're, like, trying to get help to resolve certain issues they have or whatever. But I always scream at the TV, and well, if you can talk, use your word. Words. Like, be more effective in your communication. You have the ability to communicate. Communicate. Tell us what you want. Why are you here and what you want us to do? So, my thing with aliens and people who say that, you know, aliens come to them and deliver an important message to them, like, we need you to spread the word that, you know, humans need to change because they're going to ruin the Earth. All right. So here we are. The same people who say this are the people who believe that aliens are vastly superior of technology. and can communicate telepathically and, you know, these higher beings,

they decide it's the best course of action to go to one asshole in the middle of nowhere and deliver this important message and say, all right, now it's on you. Save the world. Like, really? No, if they have the ability to communicate and they have this vast technology and they could communicate telepathically, why don't they broadcast a message? Like, tell everybody. Like, they have the ability, but they don't.

So either they're assholes or they don't have the ability. I don't get it. It's the oldest story in human history. Yeah. You know, giving this message to one person to spread amongst the people. I mean, look at Christianity. That's all it's based on, is putting this on one man's shoulders to spread the word. So, again, that whole idea of belief system comes in.

A lot of people believe that you follow. is nothing but a religion. And at times, I can't argue that. I try to defend that it is not that there is a extremely rigorous scientific approach by some within euthology. There's a philosophical approach. There's a psychological approach. But a lot of it does rest on belief. Oh, absolutely.

And in a way, it has to be. Yes, it does. But it doesn't have to be, to the extreme. stream of religion and that component does exist. Yeah. But yeah. I mean, when we're completely honest with ourselves, yes. When it comes down to it, a big portion of this does rest on belief.

And you know what? I'm fine with that. Yeah. But that keeps me going. You know, we're looking for evidence, for that proof, for the thing to convince us of new things. And, you know, more than just stories or things that are told to us by other people. So, you know, we're on that quest, you know, and that's a quest will be on forever. But it's having that belief that keeps us going on that path.

Yeah. And not being content with that belief, you know, understanding that that belief is just a belief and those beliefs can change. And I think that's a problem with many people, is they are ingrained in the beliefs because they've been told certain things. And anything that comes after that, that conflicts with what they've been told. old. So no, that's wrong. And they're not going to change their beliefs. Yeah. And we live, at least here in America right now, in a time where your belief is not

going to be changed on certain topics. If you're looking at it politically or anything else, people, you're not going to change anyone's mind on certain things. And we live in such extremes right now in this country, which is scary. It's pretty scary. But I think the same could be said for the field of euphology. Even if you have an explanation for something, someone is going to come up and say, no, no, I know the truth. I know it was a blue avian, alien bird that came and gave me a message.

And you're not going to change their mind. That's right. You're simply not. That's right. Yeah, and it's frustrating. You don't need to try. Some people have made up their minds, and that's how it's going to be. My mind is made up.

That's right. So, you know, good for them. You know, so you move on. You know, I decided a long time ago that, you know, it's not my job to preach to anybody or change anybody's mind. You know, I'm happy to relay the information that I find that I uncover, present the news to people and let people make up their own minds. That's the way it's going to be.

You know, it's not my job to tell people how to think or to change their minds. That's all on them. And, you know, it's really a humanity issue with deciding to believe things. People generally want to be told how to think, frankly. And that's, you know, why people gravitate toward religion or political parties or football teams or, you know, that's just how we are as humans. You know, we decide what team we're going to be on or team we're going to root for. and that's it. Yeah.

We drive in and we support them until the end. Right. And then when you're that far in, that deep, you know, it's, you don't want to turn back that now. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Majority of people, you know, are not going to be that person who, you know, wants to take that hit and doesn't want to, you know, admit, hey, I was wrong. I reevaluated and, yeah, yeah, I was wrong. Well, I mean, we can look at someone like, I know someone we both find as a pretty good hero, and that's Staten Friedman.

You know, for so long, this man has been touting the MJ12 documents as being authentic. Yeah. And he's so far into his life and his career and his age that there's no turning back for him. Right. He's never going to come out and say, yeah, they're a complete bullshit. Yeah. He's never going to come out and say it. Yeah.

And nobody expects him to at this point in his life. The dude's in his 80s. You know, still witty and sharp as attack. But at the same time, stubborn as hell. And convinced that these things were real, the MJ12 documents. But you have to wonder. Or you have someone like Peter Robbins, our good friend, who for years and years defended a person who was supposedly involved in a very famous UFO incident and now has had his hand forced

and had to admit that he was wrong. So you have it on both sides. You have those people who find humility in a situation and find that truth deep within them to say, I was wrong. Let's move on. So you have to wonder. You really have to wonder.

It really comes down to the character of a person. Absolutely it does. And I think that's something important for us all to remember, especially, you know, people as researchers in the UFO field, you know, sometimes it's easy to get frustrated by things happening in the study of UFOs, in the UFO community. But, you know, we have to remember that we're all individuals. And we're all different. We all different personalities. People, you know, interact differently. People approach things differently. And people have certainly different levels of humility. and it's easy to get stuck in your ways,

and that's just what you're going to do. But ultimately it comes down to the person. So, yeah, I think it's important to remember that, you know, especially for me. I just have to be content with the fact that I am not trying to force ideas on anybody. I am not a preacher or a cult leader or Stephen Greer. Oops, did I just say that? Yes, I did. You know, I don't have answers, so don't listen to me.

Like, I will just tell you what I know, what I find out, what I learn along the way. But that's it, man. I'm just a guy digging into this like everybody else. And I'm happy to present my, as best I can, my objective view of things. And people can take that and do with it what they want. Yeah. And if they don't agree with you, you know, I'm not going to, come up to you and say, hey, you're wrong. I'm right. You're wrong. Damn right. Because, you know what?

I don't know. Like, you could certainly be right and I could be completely wrong. That's fantastic. You know, good for you. I'm happy to be wrong. But, you know, I'm not going to tell you that, oh, I'm 100% right and I guarantee it. No, no, that's never going to happen. You know, I'm certainly always open to other possibilities. I will present what I know to the best of my ability. It will present facts and cite my sources and that's that. Yeah. I remember when my book got released and people started asking me, like, well, you say you interviewed like hundreds of people. There had to be some people who were just flat out lying to you, right? Like, was there anyone who you interviewed or talked to who you

just flat out thought this was bullshit? And when I first started talking about the book and the people I interviewed, I wanted so, you know, just easily to say, yeah, of course. There were people I thought were just bad shit crazy or were lying to my face. But then I really had to sit back and say, you know what, I wasn't there. And I think that's really important too. Whenever someone comes forward and says they had a paranormal experience, a UFO sighting, anything, anything, a psychic premonition. I wasn't there in the room when it happened. That's right. So I try to keep that in mind, too. As the years go on and I get more involved in this field, if we even want to call it that, I've become more skeptical, but I've also become more open-minded. So it's just such a juxtaposition and happen and flow all the time. Absolutely. And I totally get that.

I wasn't there. Yeah. No, I totally get that. And, yeah, you and I are aligned definitely on that. So, for those of you who don't know, one of the main reasons that I became a fanboy of Mr. Jason McLuhan here was a web series he had called Spacing Out. And this was sponsored through Open Minds. Yeah. So this is something that Maureen Ellsbury and I put together. I forget what year we started it, but it started because there was a need. We were filling a void. So at Open Minds, at the time, our colleague Alejandro Roe, Rojas had left the company. And so we no longer had his UFO podcast that he was doing. So we needed a show to fill that. So I was thinking about, you know, just doing another podcast. But I had wanted to launch a web series as well. And I was how, well, we could kill two birds with one stone here and do a web series and have that audio be an audio podcast, but also have a web series. So so that's what we did. We launched Basing Out. It was essentially a high. hybrid talk show news program to where we would present recent UFO-related headlines,

and we would also have interviews, and we would, morning and I would discuss the headlines, too. So we would present the news in an objective journalistic fashion, and then we would, after the fact, interject our personal opinions into that. So we tried to separate that, but also have the talk show element of it, too, with that discussion and discussion with guests. So that was the gist of it. And yeah, we had a lot of fun with that show. And that ran for how long?

We did that for a couple years at least. Yeah. Yeah, we did more than 100 episodes of that. And yeah, it was a great run and made a lot of contacts to that show. We were also featured on the Huffington Post at the time as like one of the top five YouTube channels you're not watching, but you should or something like that. And we were invited on at the time Huffington Post had their Huff Post live. They're like 24-hour live streaming program.

So I got to go on that and talk about spacing out. It's pretty cool. I think it's awesome because you don't see often, first of all, younger people talking about UFOs. And second of all, on such a professional level. If I wasn't entrenched in this topic and I happen to come across a, mini news show on YouTube about UFOs. Like, of course I'm going to subscribe. You know, it's just, that's freaking awesome.

And you don't hear about it that often. Right. This topic for the younger generation. So I thought it was pretty cool that, like, you open this up to people who necessarily may not have ever been interested in UFOs. Yeah. And just were like, ah, this is awesome. It's like 10 minutes long out of my day.

I'm going to watch them. And I know, like, you guys had fans, like, come up to you all the time, be like, oh, spacing out, space an out. What happened? Where is spacing out? Yeah. Because the run eventually, unfortunately, did come to an end at one point. Yeah. But you recently announced that spacing out is actually going to be coming back.

We did. Yeah. Yeah. So spacing out is coming back. Woo! Probably in September. Okay. That's what I promised anyway.

So we'll see if I can hold myself to that promise. But yeah, so it's going to be a little different, obviously, because Maureen and I are in different states now. So she's in Washington, and I'm in Arizona. So I've got some logistical things to figure out. And we said we're going to make it a little more broad as well. Not strictly focused on UFOs and extraterrestrials. I mean, that will obviously still be the primary focus of it.

but we'll probably open it up to some other paranormal topics as well, because obviously we're both interested in other things, but our main focus is UFOs and extraterrestrial. So we're still figuring out some of the details, but the plan is, too, in September, spacing out will come back. That's awesome. That's the most important part. It's coming back.

I will be subscribing again. Well, and I have a feeling that you might be involved in one way or another. I think so. I hope so. We'll see how it goes. I'll have to talk to my people. You'll be, you'll be sort of in my neighborhood now. So we'll make doing things easier. That's true. You guys are going to get used to Jason McClellan, trust me. Once I'm out in L.A., it's not that far. Hop, skip, and a jump. It's a much more of an event when we're able to make it to either New York or Arizona. But now, you know, we're going to be in each other's backyard. So

that's going to make all the difference. I have a question for you. And so, broadening, spacing out other topics. What is like, besides UFOs, what is like the next thing you'd really want to dive into whether with spacing out

or other projects? What other things would you want to investigate? I want to investigate fantastic alcohol. Okay. Not the answer I was expecting. No, no, no, not at all. I'm not joking at all, of course.

We're doing it right now. with UFO beer. UFO beer, sponsored by UFO beer. A crack-up one. Yeah, man. I mean, I certainly have, in recent years, explored more paranormal topics, and I do want to, because I have the technology to do it, and you can get technology to do it, and I've had interesting results, obviously the ghost hunting is fun.

I really enjoy that, and have had some of the most. more unexplainable things happen to me with ghost hunting. Okay. So, pardon me. That's something that I want to do more. Just because there is, and that's, you know, people talk about that and, you know, you and I have both experienced this where we have television producers, like,

coming to us and basically wanting us to be able to do what ghost hunting shows do, but with UFOs, and, you know, well, there's an obvious difference there. It's not the same. Yes, on some level. I tell people this all the time, especially when people say, where should I go to see a UFO? I tell them, I walk outside and look up. Like, if you invest the time, you have the patience, just stare at the sky, and you will most likely see something strange because there's all sorts of weird shit just flying around up

there. Like, it is there. You just have to spend the time and look. But ghost hunting shows are, you know, they're sexy because you've got all sorts of gadgets, you can run around and like, you know, it's good for you. TV. There's stuff that happens and you can see it. Exactly. You've got a history of a place. You've got a backstory. You've got things and, you know, whether or not the stuff they are pushing, you know, is true, you know, whether or not these things that are causing things to happen, have anything to do

with that history, you don't know. But stuff is happening. There's interesting flashing lights. You know, there's stuff going on and potentially stuff to see. Whereas UFOs for a TV show, you know, yes, again, you can see stuff. But it takes a lot longer, a lot more time to invest in a production. And usually production companies aren't going to do that. They're not going to spend an entire day with you while you sit there and stare at the sky hoping for something to show up. Right. Well, and, you know, like this is scientist's biggest argument with UFOs is, of course we want to look into UFOs. Of course we're interesting. We have nothing to monitor. Once a UFO event happens, it's gone. How do we

repeat that? Like, that's the scientific method right there. Yeah. So, I mean, I love the guys with the UFO TOG project. You know, they're trying to make that happen. So was the group that Leslie Kane's involved with. UFO data? Yes, UFO data. You know, they know that that's lacking and they're trying to fix that by having stations set up with various meters to detect various things, you know, various atmospheric conditions, you know, just anything you would want. from a scientific standpoint. But yeah, UFOs are hard, man. Because even if you have the best camera technology, you've got all that shit set up, and you happen to just be in the right place at the right time and actually image one of these things,

still you're not going to get much information from that. Yeah. It's a good point. And with ghosts, you know, I mean, you would pretty much have the same stuff to work with, but with ghosts, you don't have to explain it. You just go, wow, that was weird. shit, you know, and that passes. It's interesting, yeah.

I think I would have the same answer, too. Like, I would definitely want to experience something paranormal. But there's so much baggage with that. I grew up staunch Catholic. You know, my spirituality meant a lot to me at a younger age. I will admit that it has since waned in terms of like a dogmatic relationship. engine. But at the same time, like, when I think about UFOs, I'm not thinking, you know, oh my God, it's Jesus in a UFO. But when it's the ghosts, that's how I got.

So we're drinking warm beer because we don't have a refrigerator. No refrigerator and no ice machines. Come on, Roe Hotel in Midtown, Manhattan, New York City. Get your act together. What do you expect? It's a hotel in New York. That's true. I'm lucky we have a room at all. I know. It's about the size of my apartment.

Yeah. So, yeah, we're doing ghetto style here. We've got beer with ice. I love it. Such a sin, but I love it. Because it's UFO beer, sponsored by UFO beer. Yeah. Speaking of sin, yeah.

So Jesus is not a UFO. I don't necessarily ever connect my spirituality with UFOs, but I always run into that problem, you know, with ghost shows. Sure. Like, oh, man, like, is this an actual spirit? Is this, like, something? that once was, is this higher power, if it's a God, is he allowing them to communicate with us, wherever they may be in the afterlife?

So there's a lot of baggage that goes, I think, with ghost hunting that you bring into it. Sure. But at the same time, like, that could be pretty rewarding, too. I think that could change your faith if it were challenged in the wake of a ghost sighting or encounter or experience. Sure. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, I think more in recent years, I've grown more interested in ghost hunting and the ghost aspect because I've started thinking about the nature of ghosts, you know, and the possibility that they could be extraterrestrials or something else. Like just quantum physics. Just the fact that, you know, it's such an unknown, but it's something that I've definitely experienced and, you know, can pretty, you know, can pretty. easily experienced when, I mean, I've had pretty good success with it, you know, on ghost hunts. So it's rewarding in that sense.

And, I mean, I like to, I would like to think that maybe I would come up with some more answers, you know, for my own questions and my own edification just by doing more. But I would also do, I would like to do some, like camping and Bigfoot stuff because, again, same question. Like some people think Bigfoot's a ghost, but, you know, Bigfoot's an extraterrestrial. We're looking at you, Greg Newkirk. Good old Greg. Calling him out right now. Yeah, but, you know, Kewani Lapsiritis, you know, is a big,

you, a Bigfoot researcher. And in fact, when he presented it at the UFO Congress, he told us that there were two Bigfoot in the audience, and they approved of what he was saying. So, I mean, Bigfoot has a cloaking device or something. It can be invisible. So that's fantastic. So, like, he has that ability.

So who's to say, like, when you're ghost hunting and you experience something, that's not Bigfoot? Yeah. Like, it's, these things are all intertwined. It's fantastic. But, you know, there is the mindset out there with many people that Bigfoot could be an extraterrestrial. There is a correlation with a lot of UFO sightings and things with Bigfoot sightings. And, you know, based on people who claim to communicate with Bigfoot, you know, Bigfoot's even acknowledged that that is an extraterrestrial. They are an extraterrestrial species, so.

Yeah. And again, why have we never found a body of a big foot? Sure. This is a living, breathing, ape-like creature. Why has one never been found? Are they immortal? Do they just wander the woods forever? You know?

Or the cloaking device stay intact forever when they die. So when you're just like walking and you trip over something that you don't see, you're all, what the hell? What was that? Yeah, that's a good point. The idea that all these things are interconnected. intertwined, I think, is... That's the thing.

I mean, I don't understand people who put boxes, you know, around things and stay within that box and don't want to touch things. And you find that so much in the UFO community, they have no interest in ghosts or no interest in Bigfoot. There's just all UFOs. And really? Like, that's so foreign to me. I don't understand that concept because for me, it's all about the mystery of the

unknown. Like, it's unknown mysteries. and, you know, this is all fascinating stuff to me. I'm just looking for answers. And these things are all mysterious things that, you know, in one way or another, I've determined through my own work that there's something there to look into. Like, there's something there that people experience that I've experienced, and I don't have an answer for.

You know, so how do I know they're not related? How do I know what they are even? And I don't know what they are. And that's, you know, what's exciting to me. When I spoke at the paranormal conference this past weekend, that was the most exciting thing for me. I was outside of my wheelhouse. I wasn't at a UFO conference. I wasn't having people saying, no, you got that date wrong or no, that's not right.

This, this, that. No, because A, I was talking about a topic that had seemingly nothing to do with the UFOs. The more I looked into it, now I'm starting to think it did. but there were people there from all walks of life with all different interests. Just coming to talk, not learn, not preach, but to talk, converse. Which is really cool. We had to talk about ghost hunting. We had to talk about mysticism.

We had one on Oak Island, like the history and, you know, curses of this remote island in Nova Scotia. Really cool. I talked about Bermuda Triangle. Greg Bishop talked about Roswell. So, like, you had every realm of all these unknowns in one room together. Yeah. So we weren't there preaching to one another about a UFO case or this witness. No, we were all there telling stories about people who just had plain, weird shit happened all over the world.

That could not be explained. And that was really cool. That's really cool. I love that, and that's so refreshing. I mean, not to take anything away from UFO conferences, because I think they definitely have their place. there's a value for them, they serve a purpose. But, you know, at the same time, when you're presenting there, when you're giving a lecture there, it's a total different vibe because, like you said, you know, you're essentially preaching to the choir and if you're not, they'll let you know.

But, you know, it's that audience. Like, they are aware of what you're talking about and, you know, either casually or they consider themselves an expert on it, and they're happy to let you know about that and all the places that you're wrong. But, you know, other conferences, paranormal conferences, or just pop culture conferences, I know Maureen and I were just at Denver Comic-Con. Oh, yes, please. Talk about that. And we did an X-Files panel there about real-life X-Files. And that's awesome. It was so packed. They turned people away because there was no room left. Like we thought, you know, maybe a handful of people would come and they would be you know, there by accident because they thought like Julian Anderson and David McCona would be there.

But like we walked up there and we're all, holy shit. There's like a waiting room and people have this line coming out the door. Like this is kind of freaky. But it was awesome. And those people were awesome. They were so engaged. And this is just the general public. You know,

it's not your typical UFO crowd or the UFO community. This is just pop culture people like who love X-Files but are also into paranormal stuff and wanted to hear about like real stories. And so we talked about, you know, military involvement in UFO investigations and, uh, talked some Skinwalker Ranch and talks, um, you know, CIA, you know, uh, mind exploration studies and, you know, mind warfare. Um, but these people were just eating it up. And at the end, like, we left time for Q&A and usually at UFO conferences, you don't want to do that because that's opening yourself up to a can of war.

But this was great. People asked so many great questions, and we talked about, like, the, we mentioned the Montauk monster from a few years ago. And there was this little kid. I don't know how old he was, but at the end, it might have been a girl. I just can't remember now. But they asked at the end, like, what was the name of that monster? And they wanted to, like, look it up. So this is adorable.

But, you know, these people were great. They asked great questions. They were engaged. And afterwards, a lot of people came up and talked to us and asked us questions. like just to us. So it was fantastic. It was a really, really great reception, and I love talking to crowds like that.

And I think a lot of people do. You know, that's why I don't think a lot of people know, but Travis Walton, you know, does a lot of Comic-Con and things. He goes to like DragonCon and some other things like that. And there's some other researchers to do that, too. I know Chuck Zuckowski goes to some of them. He was at San Diego Comic-Con a couple years ago.

But, yeah, I mean, they're totally different vibes. But, you know, I love them because, as you know and you're in the same boat but man when I do this when I talk to people when I try to inform people about these topics like I have no interest in preaching to the choir yeah and that that's not my target audience I love people in the UFO community I do don't get me wrong those are my peeps but you know my goal is to reach pop culture the general public The people who genuinely have an interest in this stuff because pretty much everybody does.

You just need to present the information to them. And they don't really get it other than garbage things like ancient aliens. Sorry dudes. But, yeah, like ancient aliens, that's like their view into UFOs. Everyone. Everyone who I tell what I do. They're like, oh, like ancient aliens? No, not like ancientists.

So, I mean, they want to hear the stuff. They don't want to see, you know, the bullshit that, you know, all those, like, fake YouTube sites they're putting out. You know, hearing people talk about legit stuff, you know, they're hungry for it. And they want to hear people. They want to be in that atmosphere where they can, you know, have a serious conversation about UFOs, and not be ridiculed about it. Yeah. I had a very powerful moment when I was giving a talk in Rochester, New York, to a small UFO meetup group hosted by Cookie StreamFeld. The wonderful Cookie Strait.

I know is probably listening to this. Cookie, thank you so much for all the work you do. Hi, Cookie. Sweetheart. She is a sweetheart. She's great. So my parents came to this talk, and I was very hesitant to, they were never a part of that aspect of my life. UFO research, or me talking about it in front of people.

So I was really interested to see what they thought. And of course, they're my parents. They're supportive. Like, you know, when I got up there to talk, I saw my mom be like, that's my kid. That's my kid, which is great and everything. But the information I brought forward and the conversation that took place after the talk, I pulled my mom aside. We went out to dinner afterwards. And I said, so what did you think?

And she's like, is this stuff for real? Wow. And it was so unlike her to just come out and say something like usually. She'd just be, oh, you did great. Oh, it was wonderful. Like, you spoke so great. But she actually listened. She actually like took in the information.

And she was genuinely concerned about the information I brought forward. And that was a pinnacle moment for me. Yeah, I bet. Someone who never really thought about the topic, happened to be a family member, and confided in me and said, is this real? Do I really need to be concerned about this or think about this? I said, if you want, sure.

I'm like, I'm just telling you what I've heard, what I've experienced, and what I've researched. And I think you're right. It's not like, you know, we're not trying to convince people that UFOs are real. We're just saying, this is the stuff that's going on. If you want to look into it, cool. If you don't, it's your life. Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's your cooliana, as they say. say in Hawaii. Yeah, that's always my goal is to just, you know, present what we know, put it out there and encourage people to do their own research. You know, because ultimately people have to make their own decisions. Like, and, you know, they can pick and choose the researchers they want to follow or, you know, believe information that's being put out there. But that's not my job. I just want to kind of ignite that spark, you know,

and send people on their way. I think that's the biggest thing we can do. And that's how you get people interested. And then hopefully we get more researchers doing active research, which is fantastic. Out there. It's so funny because I remember with the UFO Congress, like, for most of the years, I was there. My grandparents, like, out of the blue, like, wanted tickets. And I was all, really?

You want to come to a UFO conference? Yeah. going to be pretty boring probably. But no, they were like all into it. And they came like every year. And I thought that's interesting. Yeah. I never would have thought my grandparents would want to come to a UFO conference.

But they did. My grandpa was super into it. I think my grandma spent all her time in the casino. But yeah, no, he was there. And then my parents came out too. And that was really funny because I think the first lecture they went to was Barbara Lamb. And they came out of it. And they're all, that was interesting, hearing about alien penises and how we're alien hybrids.

So, yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, that's always tough. That's tough. You get a pretty broad spectrum at such a large UFO conference that's five days long, you know. Oh, yeah, for sure. You're going to hear everything from, like, ex-military to scientists. And again, I mean, UFO conferences aren't geared for the general. public. As much as, you know, as organizers, we try to make things accessible to everybody and

try to get things that the general public will be, you know, able to take in, yeah, no, UFO conferences. You're going to have some pretty, pretty deep stuff, pretty far down the rabbit hole type stuff. Like, if you're just coming into UFOs, you go, what the hell? It would be tough for someone who's just getting into the top. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, that's another big concern is, like you mentioned, secure team 10, 7. Yeah, whatever they are. Or something like ancient aliens, which was, I have to admit, pretty awesome the first season. Sure.

But how do you stretch a show into 10, 12 years? You start making shit up. You have to. At that point, it's dealing with a lot of stuff that's not ancient history. It's so weird the stuff they cover now. Yeah, anyways, we could bash up Mr. Seuclos all we want. But yeah, like you said, for someone just getting into this topic, it's tough. You know, there's so much garbage out there on the internet when it comes to UFOs that, like, where do you turn?

Where do you even start? You know, we were lucky to, like, have people to influence our research who we trusted and who haven't gone that far down the rabbit hole where, you know, like, they're just crazy at this point or delusional. So I feel very fortunate for that. I think eventually, you know, after you have the start, I think, you know, we both reach the point, which I think is an important point to reach in your research. And that's the point where you no longer really care. And I know that sounds bad, but what I mean by that is not being beholden to anybody. Correct. Not feeling that you need to appease anybody.

You're not worried about to an extent. you're not worried about, you know, upsetting somebody because you don't agree with their views. You know, you're just doing your thing. And I think that's what you've got to do. You've got to be you. You've got to do what you're comfortable with. And you can't really worry about, you know, what others are going to think. If you're being true to yourself, you're being a genuine researcher and doing what you feel is right. That's what you've got to do. Like, you know, it might not win you a lot of friends, but, you know, we're not doing this. make friends. No, we've made friends. We have made friends. Yes. And that's another, another thing to keep in mind is that we all have our own reasons for being into this topic. You know, it's not an altruism that we want to bring the truth to the public. Right. We want to know for ourselves. That's right. We, we, you've lived a different life than I have. You know, you've lived a completely different life, different family, different relationships, everything. But we have this one thing in

comment and we can actually talk about it to one another. But, you know, I'll be the first to admit. Like, I have my own selfish reasons for wanting to know the answers to this. Yeah, no, I have no qualms about admitting that. Sorry, guys, I'm doing this for me. I'm glad you like listening to, but, yeah, this is all about me. Not really, but yeah, no, it's totally selfish. Obviously, I mean, we wouldn't do this if we didn't, you know, have a genuine passion for it, a genuine personal interest. And if we didn't have that, we'd be a big fat phonies. Right. So, I mean, if there are people out there and you don't feel they have a genuine interest and passion in this topic, then I don't know why you're listening to them.

Because really, you know, that says it all. That being said, I hope you all still listen. Yeah, right? We're doing this for you, too, guys. Yes, exactly. Well, I think that's about it, my man. Yeah, I think that's probably right. Cheers to that.

We're almost out of beer, so we should probably wrap up. Wrap this up. We're going to go to the arcade. Yeah, we're going to go to the arcade and see if we can find some alien games. Well, Jason, where can we find all of your work for my listeners? All right. So, rogue planet. TV, that is the fantastic website you can go to to find all sorts of UFO and other weird, geeky content.

all the various shows I do and there'll be more shows coming soon in the future that's where you can find any information about spacing out that will be coming also on Twitter at Acentric that's A-C-E-C-E-N-T-R-I-C and I'm on Facebook too

I don't remember my Facebook name right now And no one goes on Facebook anymore, don't worry No and if you go on Facebook and just type my name and you can find me If you go to my Facebook page Just look for Jason you'll find There you go. That works too. No, I have some cool Facebook name, like the UFO geek or something like that. Oh, okay. Yeah. I don't know. I'm on there. My name's Jason McClellan. Find out. And that's the unknown podcast, correct? Yes. One podcast is the unknown podcast, the UFO podcast. Also do the punk rocker moonstopper podcast with our mutual friend and colleague Amy Share a title. We talk a lot about space, but also, our mutual love of punk rock and alcohol

and we get into UFOs too and we're soon going to do a UFO episode with Mr. Ryan Sprague. Ah, can't wait. And yeah. What about you, Ryan? Where can we find all about you? All my work can be found

at somewhere in the skies.com. Oh, that's awesome. Didn't you write a book? I did. I wrote a book. It is called Somewhere in the Skies, a human approach to an alien phenomenon. That's fantastic.

See, your subtitle is so much shorter than mine So it makes it difficult for me to remember mine. Anytime I try to say the name of my book, I can't remember it. So let's try. So my book's on Amazon, as is Ryan's. My book is called Only Weirdos, C-U-F-O's. And before you get angry at me, the subtitle is an introduction to the misperception of unidentified aerial phenomena and extraterrestrial life.

You got it. All right. Yep, I know that is a fact. It's a wonderful book. Again, like read the subtitle, people. Absolutely. That's asking too much. Yeah. I was very honored to have been featured in the book as well, recounting my own UFO sighting.

Yes. So thank you for that. Oh, I needed you in there. Yeah, for sure. With wonderful cover art by one Caleb Hanks. Caleb Hanks. Yes. He made our weirdo on the cover. It's fantastic. Awesome. Yep. We'll be seeing more art from Mr. Caleb Hanks in the future with upcoming shows. So look for that. Awesome. All right. Well, this has been great, man. I'm so happy we got to meet up

in The Big Apple. We're literally staring at Times Square right now. Yeah, it's kind of awesome. The Phantom of the Opera. Yep. And, you know, I think we only heard a couple sirens, so that's weird for New York. Yeah, it's New York.

Yeah. I called in a favor. I told them we were recording a podcast. Yeah, I'm surprised that no one's banged on the door yet. That's right. These walls are paper thin. Yeah. They're probably interested, and they're probably going to look us up and listen to the podcast.

What are those two doing there? Guys are talking about UFOs. Scandalous. All right, guys. Well, that's it. We'll talk soon. We're going to go play some arcade games. It's arcade time. This episode was sponsored by UFO Beer. UFO Beer.

All right, that is it for this week's episode. Again, you could find all of Jason's work at rogue planet.tv. You can always listen to past episodes and contact me through the website Somewhereinthys.com. We're also on Twitter at SomewhereSkies. And again, the Patreon is at patreon.com backslash somewhere skies. If you haven't already, please consider subscribe rating and reviewing the show on iTunes. It helps us gain new listeners and ask new questions. I will see you here next Monday and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching.

Somewhere in the Skies. Also, drink UFO beer. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions. In association with Antica Productions and the Antica Podcast Network. To learn more, visit anticaproductions.com.