Somewhere in the Skies - Just Another Tin Foil Hat

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

On episode 199 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan welcomes UFO and paranormal researcher, Zelia Edgar. Zelia shares her Top 3 favorite UFO cases and then dissects some of the high-strangeness and folkloric aspects of UFOs and their supposed occupants. Then Zelia and Ryan dive deep in to the works of John Keel, Jacques Vallee, and Ivan T. Sanderson, rounding out the conversation with the connections between UFOs, the paranormal, and even cryptid creatures. What exactly are biological UFOs, and what could alien's clothing have to say about their origins and purpose? These questions and so much more in a wide-ranging conversation unlike any in Somewhere in the Skies history.  Find all of Zelia Edgars work at: www.justanothertinfoilhat.com Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Book direct at Choiceotails.com. See you on the roof. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's Bread. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your host, Ryan Sprague, and we are not going to waste any time today because we're going to be really running the gamut tonight. UFOs, paranormal, cryptids, valet. We've got John Keel. I can't wait to talk to today's guest. I've been meaning to do this for a really long time. And I'm so excited and honored to finally have her here. Zelia Edgar is with us today. Zilia, thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. Well, hey, thank you so much for having me on the show. This is just, I'm really excited for tonight. So thank you, really. Yeah, my pleasure.

And I mean, we've been talking off air for a while. And I said, hey, I should probably be recording because we have a lot to talk about. So again, like I said, I don't want to waste either of our time. Let's dive right in. I have to ask origin story. This is your first time on the show for any of my listeners, viewers who don't know who Zelia is. Tell us a little about how you first got interesting. and the paranormal UFOs.

Yeah, give us the condensed life story of Celia, if you don't mind. Yeah, sure thing. Well, you know, it's one of those things where actually I've had a major interest in just kind of the general, like, weird for my entire life. And I've been part of this in my home state of Wisconsin, which, of course, is kind of known for being just a very weird state. You know, it's got a lot of paranormal history as well as just very strange happenings and, of course, some fantastic folklore.

And I did actually, I grew up kind of immersed in the folklore, particularly of southwestern Wisconsin, where my mom's family is from. So I got to grow up hearing stories like the macabre true story of coffee woods, the murder of coffee woods. And other, you know, incredibly weird, but also true stories, such as the mysterious no-dolff incident where these two kids in the late 1800s actually vanished from inside of their locked home during a rainstorm. Very, very just weird stories. But two, actually, my family has kind of a strong history of weirdness as well. So I got to grow up hearing stories about the old haunted house where my mom grew up. She and her sister had a very bizarre UFO encounter that happened at the time as well. And then even my grandma remembered hearing when she was a girl that one of her neighbors actually,

or a friend of theirs, saw this big hairy arm burst through the window of their home. So that's kind of what I grew up with. And then when I was probably, so I gravitated towards being interested in all manner of weird stories and phenomena. And when I was probably eight years old, actually, my mom, of all people, thought that it would be cool to get me into studying and researching Bigfoot. And so she actually introduced me first to the Patterson Gimlin footage, because she at the time was thinking that this was kind of just a, you know, a funny hoax from the 60s and 70s. And then as she started, you know, researching it with me, because of course I latched on to it right away. I was like, this is fantastic. She started noticing, too.

She's like, oh, this seems like a legitimate phenomenon. So now my mom actually has a major interest in Bigfoot, which I, again, totally latched on to. So I started at that time with a huge interest mainly in cryptosology. And so I first thing I went to the library and got every single book I could find on the topic. One of them actually happened to be John Keel's Complete Guide to Mysterious Beings, which I think worked its way into my subconscious and manifested years later. And then a major turning point for me when I was 10 years old, I had the pleasure of meeting Linda Godfrey at one of her book signings. And that was just, again, it was a major, major turning point for me because there I was, I was a kid. I had an

interest in all this weird stuff. You know, to not many, not many people, you know, generally speaking, have a devout interest in this sort of thing. So, you know, my family was very open to it, but as far as anyone else. It was kind of just like, you know, sort of whatever thing. And here is this adult, again, and she's from Wisconsin too, who is actively researching. She has a job in this field, and that meant the world to me to see that. A year later, I met another Wisconsin researcher, Chad Lewis, and I've been probably to, gosh, I don't know, maybe 50 of his book signings over the years. And he is just, you know, he's fantastic too. He's written countless books on the topic. And so those were kind of the major turning points in my life that cemented my interest in the paranormal.

And yeah, again, sorry, go on. No, I was going to say, that's so cool that you started at such a young age. I mean, I was the same way. I conducted my first interview with a UFO witness when I was 13. So, I mean, you can only imagine it wasn't easy to kind of talk to friends about this sort of stuff. I mean, I remember getting made fun of all the time if I would bring it up. I would like secretly be reading books from the library like you about UFOs and Lochness Monster and all that good stuff. And yeah, so it's so good to know that you found those people to look up to.

I was the same way. I had those mentors that kind of guided me along the way and said, you know, it's okay. it's okay to talk about these things and research them because there are legitimate phenomena happening. So that's pretty cool. Well, I guess my next question would be, okay, so you start researching. And like I said, you're not just a UFO researcher. You've looked into everything, paranormal cryptids, esoteric, UFOs. But you did become a state director for Mufon.

So I have to ask, first of all, how did that happen? I mean, wow, that's a pretty big role to take on for someone, I would assume, of your age. I mean, usually we see these state directors and they've been doing it for 20-something years. So first of all, how did you get connected with Mufon? Were there any really interesting cases that you investigated that you're willing to share? And then what made you decide to leave the organization if you're willing to share? Oh, of course. So, yeah, I was affiliated with Mufon for a relatively short time. I actually joined because I attended the Milwaukee Paracan in 2016.

They're kind of a long story, but there have been a short story contest that I entered and won. And so I was like, oh, this is fantastic. You know, I got free tickets and everything. And there was actually, there was a table set up for Mufon. And I had been considering joining for a very long time because that is kind of taking the leap from research to investigation was what I was looking to do because I've always been way more. research oriented as opposed to investigation, just because I didn't really know exactly how to get started with that. And so, you know, I spoke, I believe, I think it was, Chase Klatsky was there at that time. And I spoke with her and she was like, yeah, you should join the organization. So I

literally went home after the weekend and looked into it and joined. And then it was actually, I took my training for the field investigator course. And then it was, I think either a year or two later that I actually finalized my paperwork for it. And so, yeah, I just, you know, I just joined on. Again, it was a very short time. I think I was a certified field investigator probably for about a year and a half, if I'm remembering correctly. And in that time, I was, I was promoted to assistant state director and then state director very quickly. And there were, I would say that there were some intriguing cases. More often than not, though, the thing that really gets me is to see the effect that this phenomena tends to have on people. And so the one that stands out in my memory,

there was this guy and his his sighting I will say it wasn't anything you know it wasn't like the Martians were landing quote unquote but you know he had such an effect from his sighting and he wished to remain anonymous so of course I have never talked about like who he actually was or whatever but when he finished describing what had happened to him you know I went through and it was very just you know it was pretty far off sighting but yeah some strange thing that was unexplained and And I asked him, I was like, well, okay, yeah, you know, this sounds like it wasn't any of our usual suspects for it being some sort of misidentification or natural phenomena. And I was like, but do you have any other questions, you know, before I finalize this interview? And he just, he straight up asked, he was like, so what was it? And it was just, it was really seeing that effect on the witness where, you know, there are so many people who, I believe more often than not, more people than not will at some point in their lives have some sort of interaction with. the unexplained, whether it's, you know, ghost activity, seeing encrypted, UFOs, even just ESP phenomena. And I think with many of these people, it really is unexpected, and it can call kind of normal reality into question. And so it was really interesting to kind of see that

effect, and he really did simply just want to know what it was that he witnessed. And of course, you know, I had the rather unsatisfactory answer, well, we don't really know. And so that was probably one of the most interesting cases I handled. I'm simply because of, again, the witness effect. Yeah, and I mean, that's what I'm all about. Anyone who knows my work knows I am more about the witness than the actual event itself. And like you said, how it impacts someone's life. And it does in so many different ways.

I mean, their belief system, you know, their family dynamics, how they view and perceive the world before and after an event like this. And I think you're right. I think everyone in some way, shape, or form has had a brush with the unknown. I mean, I can't tell you how many people after that, you know, whole New York Times story exploded about UFOs and the Pentagon back in 2017, how many people finally came forward to me and were like, oh, yeah, I saw something. I saw something. And I think that's what it takes, you know, to take these things seriously. there might be someone watching this interview tonight or listening who the thought never crossed their mind. But they said, I'll check this out. And then boom, there's one more person who is going to make these topics normalized. So I think that's awesome. And I think that that one in need that the witness had to ask you, what is it?

What did I experience? The most responsible answer any investigator can truly give, I believe, is I don't know. because I don't think any of us truly know what is going on. We can try to explain it. We can try to find answers. And hey, if you can, awesome. Like that's case closed. But I mean, I'm sure with Mufon, probably a vast majority of the cases remain unknown because these things are so strange and in everything in between.

So what made you want to take the leap and kind of move on from that and do your own thing? A lot of it had to do with, you know, I was kind of developing my own brand of what I wanted to look out for. And so, you know, my current research, I'm really, really interested in, not to say, unified field theory for the paranormal, but kind of. I really like cases that seem to kind of transcend the boundaries that we've put up between these apparently different categories. And so I was, you know, that was kind of where I wanted to head. I didn't want to really be, like, commit myself to any one particular category. And, you know, truthfully, to the caseload was a little difficult to handle. At the time that I left, I think Wisconsin only had like four or five investigators,

and a few of them couldn't take cases. So it was quite a responsibility. And, you know, the truth is, I was really happy to be part of the organization. I know there's been a lot of stuff that's gone down in the past year with it, which is unfortunate. But no, I think that a lot of the investigators are definitely in it for the right reasons. A lot of them want to know, you know, trying to figure out what this phenomenon is. So, you know, I did appreciate my time there. And it just was kind of my time to kind of move on and devote more time to my particular research.

Right. And I mean, that research is very unique. And there's definitely some things I really want to dive deep in with you. Some of these people that I know that you've kind of really read up on the literature of what they've brought forward and how to infuse it into your own research and investigations. but before that, I would love to know Zilia's top three UFO cases. We live in a world of lists. People love top five, top ten, boom, boom. So, yeah, what do you have for us?

Are there any cases that, whether you've read about or personally investigated, give us your top three, if you don't mind Zilia. Take your time. Okay, I will say this was a difficult question because my top three in anything, I'm very indecisive. It's kind of constantly changing. So for today, though, and I will preface this, my top three UFO cases, it has mainly to do, in a sense, with kind of this level of absurdity or whimsy. I find that it's really interesting that this comes up so often in these UFO reports.

So number three is going to be the so-called beer can aliens, even though technically the witness said that they looked a little bit more like tin cans. apparently in Long Prairie, Minnesota, in October of 1965, a young man by the name of Jerry Townsend, who, you know, according to all reports, was an honest, decent guy. He was a host of the radio station, rounded a corner of the road and saw this classic rocket ship in the middle of the road. And his first thought was that no one would believe him, so he wanted to actually tip it over and maintain the evidence. Well, his car shortened out. Long story short, when he got out of the car to get a better look, these little robotic tin can things came out of the rocket and started moving around almost like they were working on the machine. Now, again, this case sounds very absurd. But I find it just intriguing because it's almost so cliche that it seems unreal.

And so he drove off and reported it to the police. And apparently there was some trace evidence of this odd oily substance on the ground. But according to some reports, the road was actually paved over shortly thereafter. So rather interesting. My second in the top three is going to be the Kelly Hopkinsville encounter, which of course is infamous. It occurred in August of 1955. It's one of my favorites. And I mean, the facts of the case are well known by now.

The initial sighting was of this strange, classic flying saucer that was shooting out rainbow-colored flames. And this was observed by a man named Billy Ray Taylor. Said saucer apparently dropped into a gully out of sight. He went inside to the Sutton family household. This, of course, occurred in Kentucky. And no one believed him. They thought he was, you know, just joking until later that night when the house was besieged by these little luminous silver godlins, for lack of a better term.

And again, this is just one of my all-time favorite cases, simply because it is, it's so weird. you have this very like monster-like attack of these hobgoblins coming after the house in waves. Apparently they tried shooting at the beast, a point-blank range, and the most they ever did, because of course they could float in the air, because why not, was kind of over and run away. I know, right? And, you know, the attacks continued through the night. They got the authorities.

Of course, they stopped as soon as they were there. The authorities left, they came back. You know, it just sounded like sheer madness. And the fact that, too, because of course, as we'll get into a bit later, the connection between fairy lore and UFOs is of huge interest to me. And so even the fact that they were branded as the Kelly Hobgoblins or the Hopkinsville Hobgoblins is just seriously one of my favorite things. But number one on my list, and this actually is rather unchanging, is the Simonton encounter. And of course, yes, this is my all-time favorite case.

It happened in Eagle River, Wisconsin, which kind of just, you know, ups the fact that it is my, an all-time favorite case of Yoho Contact. And that was in April of 1961. A chicken farmer by the name of Joe Simonton was eating his breakfast. When all of a sudden he heard this noise coming from outside his house, he described as like knobby tires on wet pavement. And looking outside, he saw this really, again, this classic kind of high mid-century sort of flying object.

He said it looked like two bowls, this bright, shiny silver. It had exhaust pipes. and it was hovering over his backyard. And so like any sane person, I guess, he walked outside really close to it for a closer look. And this hatch opened up in the side of the object. And he said that there were three short men who he claimed looked like Italians inside the object. And one of them who he assumed was the leader of the bunch. He claimed that he actually, his pants had like a jogger stripe down the side,

which is just, again, one of these incredibly strange and bizarre details. came to the opening, the hatch in the object, and gave him this little chalice or cup of some sort that was of the same bright silver material as the saucer. And somehow Simon Tinn claimed that he realized that they needed water. And whether this was telepathic communication or just body language, whether, you know, maybe they didn't even need water and he just assumed they did.

I don't really know. But so Simon Tinn apparently completely nonplussed by this whole thing, walked back to the house, got him some water, and came back. and when he gave the entity the water, he said that he looked in and saw what he described as one of these entities cooking something over a flameless grill. And so apparently the lead entity took his interest for a desire for samples, and Simonton was indeed given these, as they have come to be called, alien pancakes. Then I looked up and I handed the jug up with both hands, and I had that same look in his eyes, a son of a bit of a bit of. penetrating look and when he took the water I balanced myself with this hand against the machine and I stepped back a few steps and then with that he set the jug down and he gave me

a salute with the back of his hand a gesture of thanks I presume and then well I gave him my salute what am I going to do so I noticed this little man the same size of a man right to the side, the right side of the hatchway cooking these pancakes, which I have one here yet. He was frying these pancakes, and I pointed to him and made a gesture like eating. I thought maybe I get a conversation out of him.

Nobody was saying anything. But he didn't say a word. He just reached over and he got a handful of them, the four of and he hand them down to me and they were hot and greasy and this man cooking these pancakes it was on a square

grill-like concern. I couldn't see any flame but it seemed to be very hot there was smoke coming from it. And if that was their food God help them because I took a bite of one of them and it tasted like a piece of cardboard and that's what they lived

on no wonder they're small and with that he reached up and he closed this hatch with a heavy thud click-like on it latched. And you couldn't a bit more see where that hatch was, and you could see a hole in my hand. And with that, the thing started to raise, just like it came down. Everything was time-perfect. It went up about 20 feet. It tilted a 45-degree straight south and shot off.

And within two or three seconds, it was out of sight. Well, there I stood in the driveway with a handful of greasy pancakes, my mouth open, I'm wondering what the heck I'd saw. What did it happen? I love this case so much. It's amazing. Yeah. This, again, just leads so into all of the fairy lore stuff.

Because I know Valet talked about this case extensively. And it's hilarious, but actually in the edge of reality, that compendium of some of his discussions with Jan and Heinek. He mentioned the Simonton encounter, and Heinek didn't really remember what it was. And so he kind of kept explaining, and Heinek goes, oh, the gentleman in Wisconsin with the pancakes. Yeah. And here's the thing. I mean, he tried then. Am I right? Simington actually tried. What did he have to say about these interstellar pancakes? Well, and first of all, too, barring any concerns of alien viruses or radiation or anything. Yes, he did indeed. He sent a few off for analysis, which was interesting. And he tried one. And his verdict was that they tasted like cardboard. All right. So not the best breakfast cooks out there. Unfortunately not. I don't be an interstellar pancake cafe anytime soon, I guess.

Not anytime. I know, I know. That's unfortunate. But hey, they got better stuff to do, apparently. Well, let's touch on that. Okay, pancakes. Not pancakes specifically, but artifacts. I know this is something that you've looked at in the past.

Or gifting is another term that we've heard in the field as well. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Things that are either exchanged during these really absurd encounters with occupants from said UFOs, or we've even heard these theories of gifting us technology and knowledge through either abduction cases or crashes even. I mean, there's people out there that believe they purposefully crashed some of their craft on our planet so that we can. could try to reverse engineer the technology and come to understand it. I don't know how much I personally buy into something like that, but Zili, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, this whole thing of the artifacts that these beings often lead behind. Why do you think this

happens? You know, it's really, it's intriguing because, you know, I for one, I believe, first of all, that there is more than one right answer to many of the questions posed by any different apparent type of paranormal phenomena. And the UFO phenomenon is no exception to that. So I don't discount the concept that there may be actual genuine physical extraterrestrial beings traveling in interplanetary vehicles. I think that the vast majority of sightings may be something different entirely. And, you know, honestly, the artifacts given to people by these occupants or so-called occupants sometimes proved to be really good evidence of that. In the case of Simonton's Inf's Pancakes, you know, it's amazing. When I first read this case and I heard the verdict by the Food and Drug Administration,

that the pancakes were composed entirely of terrestrial ingredients. My first thought, because I read of this case when I was still looking at all different types of paranormal phenomena as very separate. My knee-jerk reaction was that there was some massive cover-up over these obviously Martian pancakes to simplify it quite a bit. And that obviously they weren't made of terrestrial ingredients and it was just a cover-up. As time has gone on, however, because indeed the pancakes were analyzed to have been made out of buckwheat hulls, a substance like car.

Crisco and I think brand or something like that. And they were all perfectly terrestrial ingredients. The way that I look at things now, I think that this is evidence that some encounters with UFOs, some encounters with cryptos, some encounters with ghosts may be sort of the same phenomena, that these are just simply manifestations of something that we don't yet understand, something that's been with us for a very, very long time.

And especially, too, to look into this pancake even further. Belay pointed out the comparison between that and fairy lore, you know, even down to the buckwheat hults, their actual folkloric accounts of very similar cakes literally being given to people by the fairies. There was an account from the 1600s that involved what was believed to be a demonic possession that started, surprisingly enough, with a pancake, an unleavened cake. And even the Icelandic elves, I believe, have connections to pancakes. But enough about pancakes. As far as other artifacts, you know, Keel,

really nailed down an Operation Trojan horse. He called it the artifact game. And well, again, I don't really discount anything. I think that there is the potential for, you know, like you were saying, maybe there are even genuine vehicles that have crash. Maybe there are genuine artifacts that have been given to people from these other intelligences. However, I think in the vast majority of these cases, it is unfortunately almost kind of a trickster-like element. You have, I mean, again, Simonton's pancake is a perfect example. You have something that's supposed to be extraterrestrial, turns out to be terrestrial. There are other cases where metals that are supposed to be some sort of fancy space metal end up simply being common earth alloys. There was a case from West Virginia,

I believe in the 30s, where a man walked into what appeared to be some sort of strange, crashed object, and he actually took part of it. And later in the night, this guy who looked like a soldier from World War I actually showed up at his door and demanded that he hand over the evidence. And if you go into abduction scenario, Betty Hill was given a book that apparently would confirm her experience. And of course, this was regained through regression hypnosis, which is a lot of people have a lot of different ways of thinking about that. And then at the last moment, it was taken away.

I feel like in many of these cases, it is just evidence of this very trickster-like element. We're given things that are then taken away or contradict the claims by the witness. So I think there's an overwhelming aspect of that throughout many of these cases where evidence is presented. Yeah, yeah, you're right. The trickster element just seems to play such a big role. And then, you know, when you add every layer on top of that, whether it's, you know, cultural perception of an experience, I mean, I know for me personally, I've interviewed hundreds of people who have claimed close encounters or claimed abduction experiences. And some of them took it as a spiritual or miraculous experience. It was a It was angelic.

And then others say it was demonic and it was terrible and scary. And others just straight up said, no, man. Like that was a gray alien abducting me from, you know, from the Pleiades system. I don't know. So I think it's fascinating how much that culture plays a big role in all this. And like you mentioned, valet has dug so deeply into all this in Passport to Magonia and, and Massacre. of deception, which I know is a book you really love. So yeah, what did you take away from that book with Valet? I know we have a lot of students of Valet probably watching this. What did you,

what do you take away most from Valet's work? I guess so. Probably the first thing that occurred to me when I first started reading Valet's work was the connection between UFOs, of course, and fairy lore. But even more than that, there's the connection between UFOs and all types of belief in you know, contact with other intelligences, whether it is demonic, whether it is, you know, religious even. And so that, those patterns were very apparent in his work. So that's probably like the first thing that occurred to me. But then, Messengers of Deception, I do absolutely. I mean, honestly, Passport to McGonion Messengers of Deception are tied for my favorite ballet book. And that one, you know, when I first read it, it really all tied in this concept.

that, you know, there is a genuine phenomena happening. And I think that it has been completely, not necessarily ignored, but it's always been relegated kind of to the fringe. It's something that is so integral to the human experience, not simply UFOs, but just the paranormal in general. And unfortunately, this really integral part of the human experience, you know, so often, it's kind of just, it's trivialized a little bit. And I really took that away from Messengers of deception

that this is a cultural issue that we need to work out, that it is something that, you know, I personally feel that there is definitely a reflective nature to paranormal phenomenon. And I think that, especially with UFOs, there's a cultural give and take. And that as much as we are giving some of our, you know, we're almost clothing the phenomenon

in our beliefs of the time, I think that the phenomenon does go out of its way to confirm certain aspects of that. For what purpose, I don't really know. I don't know if there is genuinely a purpose or if it is just the workings of some sort of, you know, maybe even play of consciousness that we don't completely understand. And Messengers of Deception really kind of clarified that for me,

especially that last chapter where he starts delving into some of the synchronicities that played out in his life. It just, you know, it's intriguing because I know John Keel, another of my favorites, definitely talked about that too, how it seems like the phenomenon starts taking an interest in people who have an interest in it. So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I actually, I pulled a quote from Keel that I actually put in the intro of my book. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. If you could look far enough into the empty sky, you would be able to see the back of your own head. And that just, when I read that one line, it just spoke to me so much personally because I was like, hell yeah, man. Like this, whatever this stuff is we're dealing with, it is so refined. of us as human beings and, you know, what we, it's like a dance. I really feel like it's a dance between us and these phenomena, and we bring just as much to it as they do.

At times, I could be completely off on that, but tell us about Keog. What's up, guys, Ryan Sprague here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to. to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up.

I mean, this is a number one of your big heroes in the field from the work that I've seen you do. Eighth, Eighth Tower, obviously, is the big one, right? Oh, yeah. That, I have to tell you, because, again, I read strange creatures from time and space when I was probably eight or nine. And I did not even realize, I just thought it was another cryptid book, you know, and so it was years later. I didn't know who Keel was. I read so many books at that time. You know, it was just in the back catalog of things I had read when I was a kid.

And years later, I'm reading, you know, strange, I think it's now called the complete guide of mysterious beings. It's been published under a few different titles. And I'm like, holy smokes, because this was kind of like my holy grail. I'd remembered this fantastic cryptic book. And I only remembered a few different key parts of it. And I literally, I'd spent years looking for it. And all of a sudden I'm reading, you know, John Heels is a complete guide of mysterious beings. I'm like, this is it.

So it was years later that I realized I'd actually read him as a kid. But no, my first book consciously, that was John Keel, was the Mothman Propheasies. And I read that, gosh, when I was 16 or 17. And the funny thing is that is not what really drove home the concept that different types of paranormal phenomena were related for me. That was Operation Trojan Horse, which I read shortly thereafter. But the Eighth Tower, which was what I read after Operation Trojan Horse, you know, I have to tell you, again, the paranormal, it's been a constant for me. I read that book and I had to go on a break for like two weeks because, and I found this out much later for my friend Steve Ward, apparently Kiel, the thing is with the eighth towers that half of it is fantastic because half of it is just strictly theoretical talk. It's his discussion on his concept of the super spectrum, which is a massive concept for me.

And then the other half of it was really depressing. It was almost like matrix level paranoia, you know, that these other intelligences, you know, literally. the eighth tower, quote unquote, rules the world. And it was, it was a lot. And so for about two weeks, I was just like, okay, you know what, it's fine. You're just going to take a break. You're going to figure things out. Well, years later, my friend Steve Ward told me that apparently the publishers had wanted a hook because the eighth tower was mainly stuff that was pulled from the Mothan prophecies before it went to press. And so the publishers still wanted a hook. They didn't just want this theoretical stuff. And so Kiel was like, fine, I'll give you a hook. And the hook was this

insane lovecrafting Matrix-style terror trip. So, but yeah, now the Eighth Tower is actually one of my favorites. It's probably one of my most often referenced of Keel's books. That's pretty cool. And, yeah, I mean, it was terrifying to read that other aspect of the book. I remember kind of feeling the same way. Like, I was like, oh, God, no, this is too much. I can't go that far.

And I think it's important, too, to step away from these things every now and again. I mean, I know you probably have a personal life outside of the paranormal and UFO research like the rest of us, you know? And it's good to step away because then you gain, I think, a more of an appreciation for what you are doing, what you are diving into. And I think it's healthy, too. I mean, if I was UFOs 24-7, I don't know if I would be able to function as a normal adult human being. But I mean, it's hard to when you have people like Keel. This is another quote that you would put in one of your blog posts, which I loved. Keel said, we cannot name the place where flying saucers and hairy monsters come from,

but we do know where they go. The poor Slavs literally melt. What does that mean? I don't know how to interpret that quote, but I love it so much. So what does that mean to you? Well, to me personally, as Keel so eloquently put, it's kind of a reference to the apparently temporal nature of so many of these manifestations that they seem to genuinely be around for only a short amount of time. And almost once their purpose is served, again, as he so eloquently put, perhaps they melt. Ivan Sanderson actually thought the same thing.

Now, I don't know technically if they literally melt or if they simply kind of do meld away. But I think it is, I love that quote so much too. And Keel, his writing style is just, it's killer. I love it so much. But I do think, I do tend to think that a lot of these manifestations are here only for a short amount of time. And I think that they may even be shaped quite a bit by the subconscious or conscious of the witness or even, you know, if you have a bunch of witnesses or even the culture of the time. And so, yeah, I think it's a definite reference to the very temporary nature of these manifestations. Yeah, yeah.

While we're on that, sort of the temporal nature to all this, being that, let's say there is some sort of string theory between all of these UFOs, the paranormal cryptids, which I am completely open to. And this is a discussion I'm having with you tonight. That's unlike any we've really done on the show before. So I think people are really going to find this interesting. I don't usually get into a lot of these areas. point by point. So I love that I have you here to talk about these things because I've been dying to cover these things.

So Stone Tape Theory, is this something you're familiar with? In the world of the supernatural, it's any event, a ghost or a spirit, sort of playing a loop, like rewinding, playing, rewinding, playing. So I love to know, do you think that ghost those for all of this? I mean, if we're seeing, let's say, the Phoenix Lights in 1997 in Phoenix, Arizona, is this the first time that UFO event happened or has it been replaying, you know,

in our own time and space? I mean, I know that's a really weird question, but what do you think? No, I actually love that. And yeah, now that you mentioned that, it kind of is in line with, Einstein actually came up for a theory of why dowsing might work. And it was that there's almost like a memory of the Earth. and that the human being acts as a conductor through which then these rods will literally conduct the energy from the memory of the earth. And again, you know, really interesting, really weird kind of vague stuff. I think that, again, I think there's more than one right answer to a lot of things.

But, you know, you do see a lot of times too with hauntings where it's almost like there is just kind of a record playing on loop. You know, some people who claim to be able to, you know, their mediums or they have the, you know, psychic ability, they claim that they'll walk into a place. And it's actually not a ghost or haunting per se. They're just reading the memory or the energies of that area. And it's almost downloading directly into their minds. I think that I think that theory is as good as any.

And I do think, too, that in some of these cases, I could definitely, like even regarding UFOs or cryptids, that could definitely be part of it. I think that there are definitely, you know, many cases where that doesn't seem quite as feasible. But the truth is, one of my only core beliefs, because somewhere between I want to believe and then John Keel's belief is the enemy, that's kind of where I try to stand. But one core belief that I can nail down

is that I do believe the world is a lot stranger and more unconventional than we think. So, yeah, I can see that being an explanation for some things. Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, if we did find all the answers that we seek in this life, I don't think I want that personally. I think this journey and just the weirdness of it all is what is most rewarding. I think, and I do think that by the end, it's far stranger than just little green men coming from another planet or the disembodied spirit of someone you loved. I think it goes beyond levels we can even imagine, which is exciting, scary, beautiful, awkward, everything in between. But hey, I think that's the beauty of all of this. This is another really cool thing that you're looking into that really never crossed my mind.

UFO occupant clothing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone really discussed this. You know, cases of aliens in overalls or a silver suit or, you know, an armor of some sort. So what is this you're looking into now when it comes to occupants and their clothing? So this kind of, this, you know, particular aspect. I kind of arrived at it from two very different things. And the one is, aside from the paranormal, I have a major interest actually in like costuming. I just, there's something about, you know, I've always, Halloween's been my favorite holiday.

That's kind of where it started. I mean, even as a kid, you know, I would just, I loved dressing up and things like that. And, you know, as I've grown up, I'm really intrigued by the concept that, you know, how do we portray ourselves? And especially, you know, when you see in costuming, it's meant to convey ideas. It's meant to convey the character. And so that interest has always been there. And then I was actually reading about, I did a video on the Flatwoods Monster. And of course, you know, it's by now very, very well known.

The Flatwoods Monster was this big, you know, it was kind of almost robotic in nature. And there's a lot of people debating what it actually was, you know, was it some sort of hold off psychological experiment from the World Wars? Was it possibly, you know, some sort of monster who really knows? But either way, what occurred to me as I was writing about this case is, is how very robotic the witnesses described this being. And it hit me. I was suddenly like, you know,

truthfully, this is what we should be looking for. This is what we should be seeing. If indeed all, you know, UFO sightings and UFO occupants sightings are due to extraterrestrial biological entities. And, you know, then it started occurring me that on the flip side, when most people report UFO occupants, they are reporting these, you know, things that are wearing no sort of protective gear

in a respiratory equipment. And I know this is a very simplistic view on what could be an incredibly, incredibly advanced civilization. But again, it just kind of stood out to me. And then I started looking at, okay, well, what are they wearing? And time and time again, you get these encounters that seem a lot more in line with fairy lore. I mean, Simonton's, again, is a perfect example. You have these little men wearing black knit caps in the Honeycutt encounter of 1955 in actually Loveland, Ohio.

where the frogman was cited years later, there were the sighting of these three asymmetrical, almost gnome-like creatures, and they were wearing what appeared to be almost like tunics or something like that. So you see these details over and over again. And then, too, the really intriguing thing to me is that you also start seeing trends,

like a big trend in the 60s. You see a lot of these UFO occupants wearing what they described as boiler suits. And so my interest here, because again, I do, I think that there is a huge connection to paranormal phenomena, especially UFO occupants, and subconscious of the witness.

However, I think that, you know, this might even be a way to kind of nail down what is something that we are influencing, what is something malleable, what may be a construction or projection that's being shaped by the observer, and what is genuinely something else? So, you know, maybe when we see these trends,

is that just the culture of the time kind of shaping these different scenarios? Or is it indeed, possibly in the case of these cases, boiler suit entities, is that just the genuine entity right there. And then, too, you know, even now, today, the gray is definitely the symbol of our time. And another intriguing thing is that a lot of people, a lot of abductees and experiencers will even claim that the grays almost appear to be a suit. Not that they're wearing a protective suit, but that they are the suit or they are the drone. So, yeah, this is just one little tiny aspect of the phenomenon that is

just incredibly intriguing to me. Yeah, and I think I remember in communion with Whitley Streber or Travis Walton with fire in the sky, both claimed that these were suits of some sort, that the actual entity was within it, which was very fascinating that both would claim such things. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I know there are certain researchers out there who have looked at the different symbols. that people have claimed to have seen on these suits and trying to find patterns with that. But again, I think you're right, there's such a trickster element to all of this and ties to folklore and the fairy folk-like trickster element to that. So I love it.

I love how these phenomena just always keep us on our toes and love to mess with us because we deserve it. I think we do. But that being said, I got to ask you about Ivan T. Sanderson, another one of the people that really look up to. And this really interesting resurgence, I think, in the last year or so, of the UFO research community looking at U.S.Os, you know, these UFOs that seem to either come out of or go into the water. I mean, a couple weeks ago in Hawaii, there was a big case where something went into the water and then came back out. And we're hearing rumors that this Pentagon Task Force has photos of a

craft emerging from the ocean. I mean, it's crazy. And it just adds another layer to all of this is the water. Have you ever come across any case? This is out in Wisconsin with lakes or bodies of water and UFOs? Yeah, what do you think of all of that stuff? Well, there is a definite connection, I would say, especially with UFOs and water. And again, too, this even traverses the boundary for all paranormal phenomena. But yeah, Wisconsin, I know that, I believe it's Lake Superior. There's There's kind of an almost urban legend that there's a base in Lake Superior. And there have been sightings, you know, in any of the great lakes of things going into or coming out of the water. And yeah, no, Ivan C. Anderson, because he really did nail that down in invisible residence.

And he is, he's just intriguing because, of course, he was a naturalist, first and foremost. And you can definitely see that trailing through all of his writings. And so even if, you know, I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions that he necessarily came to, but I love the logic by which he arrived at them. And his research was definitely groundbreaking. But no, in Invisible Residence, he really propounded the concept that, you know, it's true. The bodies of water on our planet, I mean, the oceans are just unfathomably unexplored even today. And so he propounded this concept that, you know, there could have been kind of concurrent evolution

and that there may be some sort of highly advanced civilization literally in our oceans, kind of right under our noses, so to speak. And it is true, there's, you know, a huge connection to water and sightings of UFOs. And again, U.S.Os, as they're known then. And I think the intriguing thing to me is, you know, almost when does it stop being a UFO? I think it was Sanderson, who when he asked, when someone asked if he believed in UFOs, he said, I didn't know they did fly, you know. And that is the intriguing concept is it's like we do have these things that are spotted in the waters. We still label them as UFOs.

And, of course, some of them do take off then. So I guess that makes sense. But, you know, his other research, too, into kind of like biological UFOs is a major interest of mine as well. And that he really discussed in uninvited visitors. Right. I would love if you wouldn't mind kind of sharing that idea of biological UFOs. We've heard of these things kind of being living organisms in our skies. So, yeah, if you don't mind expounding on that a little bit.

Yeah, sure thing. So pretty much. And this actually, this interest in particular was kicked off by a personal experience I had. It was many years ago my mom and sisters and I were watching a lunar eclipse actually. And off on the horizon, we saw these, they can only be described as almost looking like these kind of amoeba type objects. I know it sounds very strange. But it was just, and they were, you know, really like moving quickly kind of along the horizon line. These very, they almost looked bioluminescent.

yeah, just amoeba type objects. And we watched them for, I want to say, maybe 20 minutes, half an hour while the eclipse was going on. And so that kicked off a major interest. I started looking up, you know, what could this possibly be, thinking maybe it was even atmospheric phenomenon

or something like that. And as it turns out, there are many people who have described things that appear to almost be organic objects up in our skies. And Ivan Sanderson, you know, the thing is, and you can always tell that he really does kind of trace from

of the background of being a biologist because man he really you know in uninvited visitors he kind of does take it to the absolute limit and the terrible thing is you can follow his logic all the way to him describing how there may be amoeba ships from other planets carrying other biological life forms now I'm not going to go that far but I do believe that there's enough room again there's just there's so much room even on our planet for things to exist that we currently don't know about and so you know yeah I think that there's the potential that there may be these organisms very much unlike life as we understand it, living in our upper atmospheres.

It's so fascinating. And I know it's, again, the oceans hold so many mysteries that I think we should be exploring more than we are the outer reaches of space for sure. So it's so good to see, you know, NASA, which we usually think of as going out into space, doing so much more work in looking at our oceans and the climate and all these issues we have on our planet that we only have one of until we start colonizing Mars or the moon or what have you. So no, I think you're right. I think we've only scratched the surface of these phenomena here on the ground and up in space. But below, I think, is where it's really bad. So

I hope you keep going down that path. I'm almost scared to see what they come up with, but I know. I've read too much HP Lovecraft, man, you know. That's totally fair. Well, I just read something yesterday where a scientist was claiming that, oh, my gosh, where was it? Europa or, oh, God, it's escaping me right now where they said they were octopus like aliens on the moon or the planet. And that just freaked me out. I hate tentacled things.

So if that's what aliens end up being or, you know, these heptopods from arrival, I'm done. I'm done for. I don't want anything to do with it. For some reason, I don't have very many recurrent dreams, but some of them always involve giant squids. And I am like, like simultaneously, I love, I actually love like the concept of octopus. They're very interesting creatures. They have high, you know, high level of intelligence. But, man, I, oh my gosh, they also just freak me out.

Yeah, I blame Lovecraft. He started on it. It's true. Well, I think kind of Roselia, and I know my internet's being a little wonky. I will edit this all to be smooth. I apologize. Let's see. I just have a few more questions if that's cool. Yeah, totally. Awesome. This is awesome, by the way, so, yeah. Oh, good. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Again, I don't like it to just be like the same song and dance over and over.

But let's see. Okay, here we go. Terminology is and language play such a big role in all of this, how a certain witness interprets and experience and how they convey it to other people through the language that they know and have been conditioned to use. That's always fascinated me as well. And one of the big terms is UFO. And within the last couple years, it's completely been changed.

to UAP. So as a UFO researcher and someone who's been in this for a while, do you care about the difference between these two? Are they different to you personally? And what should people be using, in your opinion? You know, for the most part, I think that when people say either one, they're referring to the same concept, if that makes sense. Now, technically, I know that UAP, it does encapsulate a lot more. Because again, in Sanderson, I think even ballet have both kind of been on the bandwagon, at least in some of their books, that a lot of these things, they don't seem to fly. And, you know, it's kind of even up in the air as to whether or not they are technically objects or, you know, just simply, again, like a phenomenon. So, you know, technically

on that basis, I do prefer the term UAP. I will say that I pretty much almost exclusively when I'm talking or doing videos, use the term UFO simply because that's the more general term. Honestly, though, I've listened to some of Keel's interviews, and he legitimately called them UFOs, which I feel like is pretty fantastic, too, because then you're using, you know, the general term, but you're still just kind of calling it its own thing. So I've almost considered doing that, but I haven't commit to it so far. Yeah, yeah, I believe, yeah, the proper term is UFO. And we have to remember, too, like UFO was coined. by the Air Force to kind of downplay the high strangeness of these things people were reporting.

It's just an object. It's probably a balloon. It's probably Venus. Like, it's just unidentified. It's fine. But then you start talking biological UFOs or, um, uh, or, uh, orbs, which is another big thing I've looked into across the spectrum of, is it a UFO? Is it a, um, paranormal experience in everything?

Um, so yeah, terminology. can completely change our perception of all of this. So I love you AP personally. I think you're right. I think it kind of broadens everything. And I hope it eventually catches on. But that nostalgic feel of UFO will never go away, no matter how hard we try in my personal opinion. Referring to anything seen up there as a flying sauce, sorry, as a flying saucer too, I mean, talk about just mid-century vibes, you know. Oh, I love it. I love it. Well, I would love your thoughts on the current state of, I guess, uphology. We have the U.S. government

creating a task force to look into these things, and they've got something like 140 days at this point to kind of provide their findings to the public. What do you make of all this? I mean, this is a whole other aspect of the whole UFO topic other than valet and keel. Like we're talking straight up government, involvement in this issue. So do you think anything's going to come of this? Is it good? Is it bad? What are your personal thoughts? I hate to be a pessimist. But truthfully, I don't anticipate much

coming from it. I will say whenever I see, because, you know, honestly, 2020 has been a banner year for many reasons. And it's also been a banner year for UFOs hitting the news, kind of slid in between everything else that's been going on. And so, you know, honestly, when this came out about the new UIP task force, I wasn't even really that surprised. It almost seemed kind of part for the course. Of course, the thing that I can see coming from it is the fact that it may possibly have the potential

to normalize it for people and make it more okay to submit sightings and things like that. However, I say that tentatively because on the flip side, depending on what conclusions are drawn, I mean, it could have exactly the opposite effect. So I will say any new information is always, you know, it's good information. So I'm glad to, you know, if there are any legitimate reports that are given to the public that can be looked at, you know, I'm excited for that. But as far as to, I believe that a big part of the UFO phenomenon is, it's just so tied to human consciousness is kind of where I'm at currently.

And I don't think that any of those answers will really even become close to being figured out through any of these programs. maybe, maybe I'll be wrong, but that's kind of where I show. I mean, it's interesting. We look at what the government has looked at in the past through declassified files. I mean, everything from remote viewing to telegenesis to, yeah, and I mean, it's crazy. And look, hey, try everything is my opinion. So I do tend to agree with you. I think this is a very militarized perception.

of this entire thing and just a way for certain parts of the government to get more funding. Let's be completely honest. To look at what could potentially be threats to our nation. And they will give any money to the U.S. government to defend and to fight against threats. So I don't know. I'm kind of pessimistic as well. I don't think we're going to get much from this thing. If we get anything, I'll be surprised.

and Ali Crow, but yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think it's a way to kind of control the narrative to the public of what you have goes are. And again, stripping it of the high strangeness that it's always had. So I'm not holding my breath. I think civilian researchers like yourself and others out there doing their own work is where it's truly at and having conversations like this. So yeah, just keep up the. good work, keep fighting your own fight like the rest of us.

We'll let the government do their own thing. But speaking of your own things, Zulia, I got to ask about the YouTube channel before we go. Tinfoil hat. Tell us all about it. And also, just that image, tinfoil hat, it conjures so much about conspiracy theory. And 2020 is chock full of it. And I don't know what's happened in the past, God, four or five years when it comes to conspiracy theory, but it's gone down a dark, dark path that I don't think a lot of people really saw happening. And I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Like, where do you think the current state of conspiracy theory is with everything going on in the world?

And how does it connect to what we do in the UFO field? Boy, that, yeah, it is true. I almost feel like it's really, really odd. And I'll say too right away, yeah, my YouTube channel, it's kind of ironic, but it didn't even occur to me how conspiracy issues sounded when I came up with name. And actually, I didn't come up with the name. It was my mom. I was literally, I had just started the channel. And I was talking to her, and I couldn't come up in the name. I'm terrible at naming things. And she was like, well, what, like, so what do you want to call it? You know, what's your, what's your message? You know,

what are you trying to present? I was like, well, you know, I just don't want to come across as just another tinfoil hat. And she was like, that's it. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, just another tinfoil hat. That's perfect. I was like, you know what? It's catchy. It kind of has that, again, almost kind of nostalgic sort of vibe that I really like.

And so I went with it. And the funny thing is, is that genuinely, too, I've never been much into conspiracies. They've always kind of been like a tangible part of my research. Because, of course, if you're in the UFO field or even in the paranormal field at large, you know, you can't throw a brick without hitting a conspiracy theory, unfortunately. And I do agree. I think that, you know, just, I think. a lot of it does have to do, unfortunately, with the internet and the ease of information,

which is fantastic, but it's also a double-edged sword. And so I think that things just, they really have, like you said, exploded recently. You know, just things gain speed and then it's like unstoppable. And all of a sudden you have an alternate, you know, I don't know, just a completely different way of handling all of this stuff. It's just, it's absolutely all over the place. This is just kind of sprawling, sprawling thing. And of course, too, you know, there's just so much division, so many different places.

And it's such a bummer for me personally because I've always kind of, in a weird way, viewed the paranormal as kind of a unifying force. Like, no matter where you are in time or space, you know, people have always been experiencing the unknown. And so for me, it's, you know, it is a very kind of unifying concept. And yeah, you just, it's weird because right off of that, you have something that, man, people really just go at it. Yeah, it's tough. You know, I struggle every day with, you know, specifically what's going on here in America, but then the whole concept overall of conspiracy theory and kind of the world of social media and how quick things grow.

And it's very parasitic in a way. And I think you're right. I think it's done more to divide us than unify us, which I agree with you. I think these topics are what we all can kind of get together on, you know. And I mean, I will have little scuffles on whatever, Facebook or Twitter with someone who doesn't have the same political views as I have or whatnot. But we can always come back to UAPs or the paranormal. And you're right. That is what unifies us.

So I think, again, these things make us more human than I think anything truly can. So, yeah, it's good to know we're in a good place when it comes to these topics still be unifying, because I think you're right. If anything is going to save the world, it's this stuff. I firmly believe that. I think even Valet did nail down in Messengers of Deception. Kiel brought up this concept, too. He's like, you need just straight up pro-human propaganda, bring in a flying saucer, you know, bring in the others, the outsiders, you know, from literally outer space. And that is suddenly, you know, it is, it's just.

this kind of unifying force for, you know, of course, in Keel's mind, it was very negative. So for better or worse, apparently. But for me, at least, it's always been, I don't know, the paranormal in general has just always been a positive thing. Yeah, yeah. Little from Column Keel, little from column valet, we're all set. Well, I got to ask you this. Being as you've been doing this for a while, and you've really dug into a lot of different

things. And please excuse the ambulance outside my apartment. Welcome to New York. what advice would you give to younger people getting involved in these topics? Again, like it's so easy to hop on YouTube and type in UFOs and just be like go down a rabbit hole. So I think it's awesome that younger people are getting interested in these topics because for so long, like you and I were the youngest people looking at this stuff. Yeah. And now or not, which is kind of refreshing.

So yeah, what advice would you give to those just getting involved in these really weird things we do? Well, the first advice I would say is definitely just it's okay to be interested in this stuff. I know that, you know, I was lucky enough that, yeah, my mom, her side of the family was very open to it. Even if they don't, you know, believe necessarily in everything that I'm discussing or everything that I was interested in, they were open to it. And so I was very lucky to have that growing up. But a lot of people do have a stigma kind of with paranoia. phenomenal phenomena. So literally, it's okay to be interested in this. And also, too, I mean, at least from my standpoint, I think it's fantastic to be interested in this. And yeah, you know, a lot of people

will disagree. You know, I can't tell you how many times, you know, people would be like, that's weird or, well, that, it doesn't exist. In high school, actually, I tried to write a paper on dogman sightings in Wisconsin. And my teacher told me, she was like, you can't do this. It has to be real. So I gave her a stack of books I was referencing. So, you know, just know that. like there is definitely a value to this. And also too, definitely don't believe 100% of what you read. You know, try and find researchers and writers that you, you know, can really kind of find something that you admire about them or like about them. And go with that, but don't even follow that blindly. I mean, I don't agree with everything that John Keel ever said. So just, you know, follow your

interest wherever you go with that. So that's what I think. I think if there's anything I've learned through all this is don't be afraid to change your mind because you're going to do it on a daily basis when it comes to this. And it's frustrating. But, hey, again, these things keep us on our toes, which I think, you know, keeps me going. It's that journey. It's not the destination. So I guess kind of wrapping things up. What do you want from all this, Celia? Like, let's get deep for a minute. it. I mean, we got the origin story of how you got interested in it. But what do you want at the end of the day when it comes to looking into these things and having these like mind-altering conversations with people all over the world about these topics? What do you personally want? Do you want answers,

vindication? Yeah, give it to us. Again, I know that's a loaded question. Well, you know, it's interesting because speaking of Journey versus Destination, when I started with this, I wanted to find the proof. I wanted to find Bigfoot. And that was like, that was kind of my life goal. I just wanted to, yeah, prove it. And as time has gone on, you know, I'm not even saying that proof won't be available for certain things.

Like actually Bigfoot's a great example. I think there may be an actual population of some undiscovered animal like that. So yeah, go ahead, find Bigfoot. But for me, especially regarding more high strangeness research and the entirety of all of these different types of phenomena, now it's kind of just more about, of course, I really want more than anything kind of understanding.

I would really like to understand something about, you know, the mode by which these things manifest or project, you know, their connection to us. And, you know, possibly what is sourced in our subconscious, what are we causing? What is truly the other? Whatever that other may be. So I think understanding in any regard is probably my ultimate kind of dream goal. But for the time being, what I want is something that I, actually get quite a bit, being able to see that, yeah, a lot of people are interested in this,

and a lot of people take this seriously. And to share that interest with people, that means the world to me. So kind of, yeah, kind of a bunch of answers for that question. No, that's perfect. I mean, again, like, I've made some of the most amazing friends and colleagues through this topic that I know I never would have met in this life had I not been interested in it. So I'm so thankful and fortunate for that, you know, people like yourself that we can have these conversations without stigma, without ridicule. And again, I'm going to take something from this conversation we had tonight that another listener will not or another listener will or that you'll take away from it. And that's awesome, you know, that we can like just hash it out and bring more questions to the

table. And I have to thank you for coming on today and really getting into the weeds with us. Again, we don't do this often on somewhere in the sky, so it was really refreshing for me. Well, thank you again for inviting me on. This was just like fantastic. Seriously, super fun discussion. So really, thank you so much. Awesome. Well, before we go, tell us where can we find everything you're up to, the YouTube channel.

I know you're always working. You're always doing something. So, yeah, where can we find everything you're up to zoo? So my kind of headquarters is just another tinfoilhap.com. So that's where I post whatever I'm possibly doing at the moment. I'm actually starting to do book reviews on there too. I try to post kind of more as like a blog. So yeah, just another tinfoil hat.com.

And then I have the YouTube channel, which is also called, if you can believe it, just another tinfoil hat. So yeah. And yeah. Keeping it on brand. I love it. Well, again, I have to thank you for coming on today as a first time guest. And I'd love to have you back on.

because we really only scratched the surface, but I know you have a lot of research to get to. So, Zelia, thank you once again for coming on Summer in the Skies. Well, thank you so much, too. And yeah, anytime that would be fantastic. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.