Somewhere in the Skies - Kelly Chase: The UFO Rabbit Hole

Episode Date: December 4, 2022

On episode 294 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by author and podcast host, Kelly Chase. Chase hosts The UFO Rabbit Hole podcast, which is a speculative non-fiction podcast about UFOs. In her “real life” she’s also a branding and marketing expert. Her work is centered on the role of storytelling as a catalyst for change and expanding human awareness. She recently published the book, The UFO Rabbit Hole, which tackles the content of the podcast and expands upon it. Today, Chase discusses some of the highlights of the podcast and book, including the theoretical nature, origin, and intelligences behind UFOs, the ever-evolving landscape of the UFO conversation, and a deep dive into the controversial concept of ancient alien theory. Learn more about Kelly's work at: https://uforabbithole.com/  Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Book your Cameo video with Ryan at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Official Store: CLICK HERE Buy Somewhere in the Skies coffee! Use promo code: SOMEWHERESKIES10 to get 10% off your order: https://bit.ly/3rmXuap Order Ryan’s book in paperback, ebook, or audiobook: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at: https://bit.ly/3rJpbd7 Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2022 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at storesotails.com. The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to you every week. But if you would like to help support the show, we have a very active Patreon page

where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the main show. show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here from Somewhere in the Skies. Tonight's going to be awesome. We're going to be talking to someone that I've been wanting to talk to for a while. ever since I started listening to her podcast and it completely blew me away. I immediately started talking about it and became a super fan.

So we're going to talk all about how the podcast came to be, how her book came to be as well, and everything in between all things UFOs. So this is going to be super fun. Today we have Kelly Chase with us from the UFO Rabbit Hole podcast. Let's bring her in. She is an author. She is a podcast host. and a bunch of other things as well, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

So, Kelly, welcome for the very first time to somewhere in the skies. Hi, Ryan. Thank you so much for having me. Of course, of course. Now, again, I said in that intro there, you know, I've been following your work ever since you started the show. The minute I saw it, whenever a new UFO podcast comes around, I'm like, hmm, hmm, who's this person? Who's this? And I will tell you, 10 minutes in, I'm like, okay, I'm a fan. I'm a fan.

And, you know, it's, you see, you see in the podcasting world, not just UFOs, but you see people start shows and then maybe get like one or two episodes in. And it's just not what they expect it. They're not getting the listens they want. They realize how much work actually goes into it, which I definitely want to touch on with you in a little bit. And then they just disappear. But I knew, you know, you could tell by the first episode, the passion and the work that you put into it. So I want to congratulate you on your first season, basically. I know the show is continuing, but I hope everyone will go listen to it.

But enough of my fanboying out. Well, thank you so much, by the way. I really appreciate that. Such a fan of yours and of Chrissies. I loved your podcast before I ever started mine. So that means a lot. Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, we build each other up. This podcasting world is probably one of the most supportive communities I've ever been a part of aside from UFO Twitter. Podcasting in general has been where I've made a lot of true friends. So yeah, I want to get your thoughts on that too later, but I'm getting ahead of myself. For our listeners, for our viewers who may not be familiar with the UFO rabbit hole, tell us a little about how it came to be, how the podcast came to be, and maybe how you first got interested in this topic of UFOs.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a crazy story. I feel like it kind of is for anyone who comes to this topic. It's always, it's crazy how, you know, it's something it's not on your radar at all. And then once it is, you're like, oh my gosh, this is what I do now, I guess. You know, it's crazy. So a few years ago, I rate UFOs were not on my radar at all. It was not something I ever thought about. I considered myself to be very almost like anti-woo, something that I definitely don't identify with anymore. I had been working. a lot. I was like a real, real workaholic, not something I'm proud of, just the facts. And I hadn't taken a vacation in years. So I was going on vacation to the Outer Banks, which is actually a place where I saw a UFO once when I was a kid. And I had sort of been hearing all these stories in the news. This was about two years ago. And I was like, well, let's, I'm going to spend this week while I'm at the beach. I'm going to read about UFOs and I'm going to get to the bottom of this. And as you might imagine, I did not get to the bottom of it in a week. What I found was, what I found was, and I'm going to

was sort of this infinite rabbit hole that just went deeper and deeper, the more that I dug. But what became clear to me very quickly was that what we had here was something real and that it was, I was shocked at myself. I was kind of disappointed in myself, to be honest, about the fact that this had been going on through my entire life and perhaps from, you know, the beginning of human history and that I just had completely written it off and thought that it was nothing. And so that was a really humbling experience for me. I also happen to be a marketer and I'm a brand director for an e-com company and messaging is something that I think about a lot, kind of all the time. It's something that I've really been sort of a student of for years. And so when I looked at this, I was like, oh my gosh,

how did I miss this? And then I saw how I missed it and I saw how many other people missed it and are continuing to miss it and what it kind of, you know, they say when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And so, you know, I'm into messaging. And so I'm saying like, we have a messaging problem here, right? Like, we need to create, when I got into this topic, there's so many incredible resources out there and so many people who have been doing research in this field for years and years. But the thing that I felt like was missing was that on ramp. Like, where's the 101 class? Like, where's the thing that takes you from, hey, I'm a completely reasonable, educated person who never considered UFOs before.

I think there might be something to this. By the way, I've got a job. I've maybe got kids. I've got bills to pay. You know, not everybody has the temperament to go down a rabbit hole for, you know, 40 hours a week on their own time. So how do I create something that is an on-ramp for those people who want to understand this topic in a full and scientific and rational and grounded way,

but are also open-minded enough to actually look at the facts and to look at evidence and to see what's there. And so I've really taken all of the tools that I've learned as a marketer in my career. And also I've had a few podcasts in the past and, you know, different genres. So I had that experience as well and kind of put it all together and was like, I'm going to solve this problem, or at least do my best. Here's my entry to solving the problem. Right. Right. Or add to the problem, right? I mean, that's UFOs in a nutshell. But no, that's really refreshing. Because, again, There's so many younger people getting involved in this topic since 2017, which we will definitely discuss in great length. And a lot of them don't know where to turn.

I didn't know where to turn. I've been studying with those since I was 13 years old. And, you know, back then, that was like the advent of AOL forums and all that. So, like, talk about a rabbit hole. I was like JFK assassination over here and Builder Burns. and, you know, stuff like that. And there was no, like, one-stop shop for just talking about the one thing I wanted to talk about, which was UFOs. So I started going to my library and taking out books on the topic.

And then, like your show, aptly titles, started going down that rabbit hole. So it is. It's a lot of stumbling and, you know, going down one road and then taking a detour, going back, going forward. And yeah, it's frustrating. It's exciting. It's exhausting. But there's a reason I'm still here some 20 years later of UFO research. And there's a reason there's such a hunger and curiosity, I think, for this topic and shows like yours.

So I love hearing that. I do want to rewind, though. You mentioned you had a UFO setting. I have to ask. Could you detail that at all for us, go into a little bit more detail about that? If you're comfortable with it. Oh, sure, absolutely. Yeah.

So I was probably like 12 or 13, and I was at the outer banks with my family. And I was sitting outside on the porch. Like we had a again to the beach front house and you're up kind of on the third or fourth floor. And so I had this beautiful view of just the sky. And, you know, I'm from, I'm a city mouse. I'm from the suburbs and the city and that sort of thing. So I never really see that dark sky where you actually can see the stars. And so I was always sort of transfixed.

and I would go out and sit there and just look up at the sky. And one night I was doing this. And I had this feeling that I was going to see a UFO, which was the weirdest thing. It was not a thought that it ever crossed my mind before. And the second I thought that, I saw this light coming across the sky. And it was up very high. And I thought it was a plane. But it did kind of like a right angle turn and then a right angle turn.

And then it just shot off. like way past the horizon and was gone like a like a meteor. And I had never seen anything like that that could make right turns or move that fast. And I didn't have a lot of, I mean, I was a kin. I didn't like exactly have a background in like aviation history or anything, but that did not seem right to me. And so I went inside and I told my family and I was all worked up and they all accused me of smoking weed and did not believe me. So that had been that that had been a, citing that it kind of stuck with me for my whole life. But at the same time, I would go years without thinking about it because I didn't have anything to attach it to. I had seen something that I knew

instinctively was impossible, and everyone around me told me didn't trust me. And so at a certain point, you kind of stop trusting yourself. And it wasn't until I started really going down this rabbit hole and understanding that like, this is something real that people experience all the time. You know, it gives you that perspective shift that allows you to go back and sort of excavate your older, you know, experiences you may have had in your life. And I was really shocked. It would be like, oh, maybe I did see something. It turns out there's actually a lot of sightings in that area. So who knows?

Interesting. So I guess to kind of fast forward then, you know, you had the sighting. You didn't talk about it for a while and everything. But then out of nowhere, you start a UFO podcast. So how does that happen? What was like that that pinnacle moment? I know for me it was, you know, I had been co-hosting another podcast into the fray with a colleague of mine, Shannon LaGro. And that was kind of, you know, she'd have me come on and talk UFOs every now and again.

I was like the UFO correspondent. And then I thought, huh, maybe maybe there's something here. Maybe I could do this on my own. And Shannon was basically my mentor and helped me. build that confidence to start my own show. And some almost 300 episodes later, people are still listening, which is amazing to me. But for you, someone who had seen a UFO but never really, you know, was in the quote unquote UFO community till not too long ago, to be completely honest, at least on my radar. How does that happen? How did you start a UFO podcast? What was

that moment like for you? It's actually, it was pretty intense. It's something I've only like recently started talking about because it took me a long time to kind of unpack it and know, I still don't think I know what happened to me, but just get to a point where even felt comfortable discussing it. But I was, this was in August of last year, so 2021. And I had been doing this now for like, and by doing this, I mean obsessively reading about UFOs, just anything I could get my hands on. I didn't even know what was good at the time. Like I, it was just like, it was a mess. It was a free-for-all buffet of insanity. And I was just consuming everything from like Reddit manifestos to Jacques

Filet and trying to find something in between that made sense. And so I had like no real orientation within this. I had been kind of thinking about starting another podcast, but in a very vague sort of way. But the thing that really tipped me over the edge was it was a random Saturday morning in August. I was sitting cross-legged in the middle of my bed. I was actually surrounded by books because at this point I was like full-blown crazy style reading everything, like it was all I was doing with my free time. And I had what I can only

describe as the most intense psychedelic experience of my life condensed down into like two minutes. And it's hard to express exactly what I saw or experienced. It's, I'm still dealing with that. But I will say I went into that experience, an atheist and a strict materialist, and I came out of it certain that there is a God. And I also came out of it. And I also came. came out of it knowing that UFOs, that I was supposed to start a UFO podcast. I know that sounds crazy, but I, but I literally wrote, I outlined it. The whole outline kind of came to me. And I, I, I, what's crazy to me is that I was so early in my research. And I really, for me to be able to, the outline, I've stuck to that outline, which is what's really crazy. And because it came to me

kind of complete and I understand now how it hangs together in a way that I didn't understand how that outline hung together before. So I don't really know what that experience was. And I think a lot of my continued study into this topic is rooted in that. You know, I am fully open to and respectful of ideas that people have about this being like a psychic download or communication or a, I don't know, to be honest. I don't know what happened to me. But I know that that, I know that when that was finished, like I started the website that day. Like I outlined within two months, the web, the, the podcast was live and I have just, I don't know, it was the craziest thing it's ever happened to me, to be honest with you. And it's kind of the last thing I ever expected to do with my time.

But here we are. Wow. That's, there's got to be something, especially with your UFO sighting, where you say you were almost drawn or pulled to, to it. There's, there seems to be, I think it was one of my first episodes within my first five episodes. I spoke to a woman named Susan Demeter St. Clair, and she talks all about the parapsychological aspects to the UFO phenomenon and how a lot of people are just, you know, whatever, sitting around in their house or driving on the road and something just tells them I need to look out my window or I need to go outside right now. And then something happens. So I can't tell you how many stories I've gotten over the years where that was the case. And I do truly believe there's something to that. And then, again, you know, with this, this experience you had, you know, sitting on your bed and all of a sudden, boom, here you are with the UFO Revit Whole podcast. It's, I know that feeling where you feel like this was supposed to happen in some way, shape, or form. I don't know. Do you, do you believe in destiny? Is that something you, you would ascribe to? Or what do you think? I'm not sure. I, I, I'm not sure what I believe, especially right now, because I feel like I'm kind of in an expansion mode where I'm taking it a bunch of new ideas and I haven't necessarily like whittled them down to decide what I, what I think. I will say that I'm writing a book that I'm hoping will be out next year

about this very phenomenon. I think that there is something about, it's very weird to me how the more I learn about the phenomenon. It actually really fits into the work that I was doing in marketing. Like, for instance, I was teaching, I've been teaching the hero's journey to my teams and doing corporate trainings and stuff like that for years as a way to kind of like leverage. I really see the hero's journey as being a kind of technology that like interacts with the software of consciousness that can, you can use to drive certain action. You know, I've always said marketing's kind of like psychology for sociopaths in a way. But there's something about that call to adventure that happens in the

hero's journey. There's like this initiating event and the and paranormal experiences, the UFO phenomenon, things like this. Like seeing a UFO is a great example of like an initiatory experience that that starts that cycle and that journey and that seeking within someone. It's the recognition that your life is, that the world is more than you thought it was. That there's, that there's more out there that there's, that you are somehow more important than you thought you were, that the world is some, or there's more meaning or significant. than you thought, like that, or that there's some kind of a secret, right? Like, that's what starts the hero's journey. And so, you know, that's something that I think about all the time. And so I don't

know what that is. And I don't know what causes that. But I do know that it's probably the thing that I find to be the most interesting of all of this is how it is not just what the UFO phenomenon is, but how it changes people and how it transforms people and how it because to me part of the reason that I even like I was afraid to tell my story before and I still tell it with a degree of hesitation now but the reason that I'm so open about talking about it is that once I started telling my story other people started telling me theirs and I realized that so many people like you said have had this story is like a very common story it's not and I'm in no way unusual for having gone through something like this and so I I think that, you know, for me, UFOs are kind of the doorway into this whole topic and kind of hoping to expand people's minds to new possibilities.

But the work that I think I'm going to be most focused on moving forward into the future is probably going to be around this idea of storytelling as a technology and how that impacts human consciousness. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV. Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is our city.

It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. Interesting, yeah. And storytelling has been around since the beginning of time. So the evolution in that, of course, it's going to, it will lead, I think, to some sort of convergence as we move forward. I love that.

I love that road you're going down. I can't wait to see what comes of that. Well, I have to ask, you know, for a lot of the people who are kind of new to the topic, a lot of that has to do with, boom, New York Times, 2017. This article explodes and goes viral. and the whole world is now talking about UFOs. And I know that that was kind of how you started the podcast was with this whole Tom DeLong to the Stars Academy thing. And, you know, say what you want about Tom DeLog

and how that all ended up playing out. But we do have him to thank for a lot of where we are today in the conversation, whether it's in the halls of Congress or, you know, TV shows. or the mainstream media covering the topic, it was not like this before 2017. Nobody was listening to us except one another. And now the whole world is listening. And it's really changed everything. So I guess for you, what was that moment like when you first read that article?

And why did you decide to start the podcast kind of talking about this whole post-2017 euphology, I guess? Yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, I think part of it is because that's the story. That was quartered at my entry point, although I didn't get there in 2017. It took me a couple more years. But also because what, okay. So in marketing, right, if you're going to introduce people to a new idea or like something

that they're like not super familiar with, there's something that we talk about a lot, which is mental availability, which is basically that someone needs to, when they identify that they have a need is when they're going to think about your product. That's when you have the opening to kind of get in there and potentially like make your message heard is when they when they are able to connect that need with the thing that with the thing that you're offering. Right. So they use this example of toothpaste. It's like marketing 101. It's in every it's in every book. So they invented toothpaste like back in the like 1820s, but it didn't catch on for decades until marketers came along and made it popular. And the way that they did that was by,

they talked about the film on your teeth. Now, before that, people had never, it's not that there wasn't plaque or that there wasn't tartar or that people didn't have a film on their teeth before. It's that like before toothpaste and before, you know, toothbrushing was a regular thing.

Everyone just had that. And so it's like air. It's just there. It's just part of your life. It's not something of which you are conscious, right? But these marketers then put it into people's heads. There's a film on your teeth. And once people attach to that,

now there's a need, right? Now there's a reason for that information to penetrate. And so in some ways, 2017 was like that. 2017 was for people who may have been open to this topic but weren't, but would have been if they were like, well, if there was any kind of evidence, like give me any kind of evidence that this is actually real, that, you know, that they would. And 2017 was that. 2017 was enough noise, enough smoke that you almost have to say there's a fire here.

right like that there when you and when you really dig into the story i think tom delong in particular i don't think that we've talked i don't think we talk about him enough i've seen even just in the time that i've been in the community that's sort of like moving away from tom delong in a way and granted tom delon's back doing blink one 82 is i don't think he's like waiting for our attention or anything but i don't think people i think a lot of people coming into this topic aren't even like aware of how much proof there was backing up everything that tom delong said and how crazy the things he was saying in 2016 and 2017 were leading up to this development when we know we have proof from the people themselves and through the pedestrian emails that were leaked by WikiLeaks, we know who he was talking

to and it's the exact people in government who would have known about UFOs. And when you go back and listen to the stuff that he says, and even he says, go back and listen to those interviews, I'm not allowed to say that stuff anymore. I've gotten a lot of trouble for it. Go back and listen to what he said. It's crazy. And so like that for me was the entry point because I feel like, it gives people a place where you can look at Lou Elizano, you can look at Chris Mellon, you can look at the people who stepped forward and you can look at the test emails and you can go, oh, crap, something happened here. I don't know exactly what it was, but clearly something happened here and it was real. Yeah, right. It's crazy. I have gone back, you know, and everyone always

alludes to the Joe Rogan interview that Tom DeLong did, which everyone considers like a complete train wreck. And yeah, that was Tom DeLong pre, you know, having someone telling him, dude, like, just calm down a little bit and, you know, bit in parcel. But you could hear, he had clearly been told things that completely

blew his mind and altered his perception of reality, as I'm sure any of us would if we were talking to the people he did. I can't even imagine being in his shoes. And, and, And mind you, like, he got himself there. So many people in this field just expect like, oh, yeah, let all these government people come to me and tell me the truth. No, he banged on doors. He did what he had to do.

He used his influence. He used some cutting. And he got his way, his foot in the door. And man, it's astounding, you know, what he was able to accomplish. And a lot of people think, you know, they were kind of dead in the water, like to the stars, disappeared, everything they had planned kind of fell apart. But if you really look at it, they accomplished pretty much everything they set out to do, except build a spaceship out of UFO parts and put it into space. But I mean, come on. Come on. I don't think anyone honestly thought

that was going to happen. No. And I think that's, and I think it's not even fair to really fault him for that, especially because everything else he said he was going to do also sounded impossible, but he did accomplish those things. Like, if it wasn't for his kind of over, overblown ambition and his just like, it's almost like he doesn't connect with the reality of the situation and so the reality of the situation has not impact him. Like he's just, it's like the cheat code for life is you just have to believe in yourself. Like Tom DeLon believes in itself. I don't know if I'll ever get there, but I do admire it. Yeah. I don't know if any of us will ever get there. But hey, hey, we happen to thank for a lot of things. So yeah, I mean, those episodes were really interesting.

it was great to go back and appreciate, I think, all the things that they accomplished. You know, when I first started listening to your show, I was kind of in that phase of, is Elizondo like a disinformation agent? Like, was this all a big ruse or a lie? And it was so, again, refreshing to go back in here step by step what had happened and how it kind of rolled out where we are today. literally congressional hearings, literally a new office opening to investigate UFOs. It's insane. I don't even think they thought it was going to get to this point.

But that's what happens. You put the ball in the air and other people are going to pick it up and enroll with it. And now we're seeing Congress members getting involved. We're seeing, you know, a lot of people getting involved, both in government and in the civilian world as well. You look at someone like Avi Loeb, too, with the Galileo Project. Once you light that fire, it's going to inspire other people to do things. And again, without whatever Tom DeLong did, I don't think we would have what Avi Loeb was doing. I don't think we would have these other independent organizations now investigating UFOs. It's just, it's a, what do you call that, like a chain effect?

And it's awesome. I can't wait to see where it all goes. I'm blabbing. Let's let's talk about the podcast, Kelly. You know, you talk about everything with Tom DeLong, the Pentagon, and then you move into probably the meat of the problem. And the problem being nobody knows what the hell UFOs are. And if they say they do, that's when I kind of run away because if they think they know, they have another thing. coming. But you pose these really interesting theories on the podcast in your new book as well of what UFOs could be. And I love, if you don't mind, would you maybe break down some of those theories for us? I know there were kind of some like bullet point ones in there in the podcast. So yeah, give it to us. What are or what aren't UFOs, I guess? That's such a big question. Right, right? Let me just get this. I'll just sort this out and then we'll be done, right?

Yeah, get ready. Yeah. Well, obviously, I never, I never rule out that they're, that they're human technology. I think that until we have a reason to take something off of the table, we should leave it on. And so that means that probably could some of them be hidden human technology? Sure. I think that there's certain things like in the Nimitz incident where you see something go, you know, 80,000 feet and under a second and it's observed by multiple people and by multiple weapons systems, you know, suddenly some of those, it's very hard to say, oh, that's hidden human. That's hidden human technology. So, but I think it's important to keep it on the table. It's also very boring. So I like to move on. I'm bored of black

budget projects. That's lame. I think that, so there's a lot of other things that it could be. One is that, obviously, it could be aliens. And I don't think that's crazy. We go through, I go through in the podcast, all kinds of different, you know, thought experiments, you know, from the Fermi paradox to, you know, all sorts of different things about how that might be happening or where they might be coming from or what that might be like for us. And I wouldn't rule out the ET hypothesis either. I will say the thing that makes me most suspicious of the extraterrestrial hypothesis is that it's the one that's crammed down our throats. Is that that is the one that every single movie and television show and, you know,

everything that we see in the media is basically suggesting that it's aliens. And so that is something that makes me a little bit suspicious of it because we know that the government has engaged in some very significant misinformation around this topic. And so it's, it just feels a little suspicious to me. But, you know, it is still very much in play and very much on the table. From there, you kind of move into the weirder stuff. So there's the future human hypothesis that they could be coming from the future. I actually also like to remind people that they could be coming from the past as well. We actually actually, don't know for sure that time travel into the past is possible. And there's some reasons. It's theoretical. Some people think you can. Some people think you can't. The second law of thermal dynamics may keep us from moving backwards in time. But we do know a way to move forward in time, which is basically with a theory of relativity through time dilation. So if you, you know, interstellar style, if you go really fast or if you like slingshot around a black hole or something like that that, you know, where it messes with time, you can, you can move into the future where, like,

only a few minutes passed for you, but like years have passed on Earth, that sort of thing. So I like to remind people, they could, if they are time travelers, people always say from the future, but I wouldn't, it actually in some ways would make more sense that they were coming from the past, which is a little bit of a little bit mind-blowing. Go ahead. This is my favorite theory, by the way. That's when you said, when, as soon as you said us from the future, I got super excited. I was like, oh, yes, yes, let's go there.

I want to talk about this. Yeah. And I know on the podcast, you did some research into the work of Dr. Michael Masters, I believe it was. Yeah, absolutely. And the extra tempestrial model, I think, is what he calls it. Yes. Yeah, would you mind maybe breaking that down a little bit for us? Because I have heard there's so many cases where people have said they've come into contact with beings from these sedentia.

UFOs and they said, yeah, where are you from the future coming back to warn you of something? We've been hearing this since the 60s, the 70s. So yeah, what do you make of this whole idea of us from the future or past, I guess? Yeah, I mean, I find it really interesting. One thing that I find really interesting about time, the time travel stuff and also with any kind of interdimensional theory is that here's the thing. If time, if humans ever crack time travel, they're coming here now. That's the weird thing about how time travel works, is that if any point in the future we ever crack it,

the chances of them come in here right now are almost 100%. Right. So if it's possible, it's happening. It's one of those kinds of things. So I find, so to me, I think that's one of the more compelling arguments. I also think what's really interesting about it

is that you don't, with future humans, you're not introducing anything. Time travel is really the only thing that you're introducing and we still have some theoretical models for that. But you're not creating a whole new paradigm of reality or introducing beings of which we have no conception or direct proof, right? We know humans exist.

We're already right here. We have theories for how this could be happening. And so in some ways it's sort of almost like an Occam's Razor situation where it's kind of, in some ways you could really make the argument that the future human hypothesis is the simplest and most kind of intuitive. answer. But I think there's other evidence as well that I find very compelling. One thing is that the nature of the UFO phenomenon changes over time in terms of how it's observed. And we tend to think of UFOs within like the more modern and current paradigm. But, you know, there is a whole

flap of airships back in the 1800s in the United States where people, and you could actually see it because it would be in like one newspaper one day. And then you'd see it like another town in a newspaper a few hundred miles away and another like day. You could see this like wave moving across the country. And it was being reported that there were these like very well spoken, well dressed, but human people who were landing these sort of like weird Jules Verney kind of elaborate airships in in towns and villages in the American West and just hopping off.

and introducing themselves, taking people for rides, talking to them, and then like leaving and being like, bye. And these stories were all over the place. And what I find interesting about that is that those sorts of airships and dirigible and that sort of thing didn't exist at the time, but they had been conceived of. They were kind of the next thing that was on the horizon. And so, you know, it makes you wonder about about the time travel nature of it and the time, you know, how those things might be, how those things might be. related, you know, and if it's not time travel, maybe there's a set of people who have access to the future, information from the future, something like that. I think it's a really interesting,

a really interesting perspective. Yeah. And, you know, I remember speaking to a history professor at Penn State who has been looking at the UFO topic for a while from a historical perspective. and I vividly recall him saying UFOs are the ambition of what we could be, what we aspire to be. And that always stuck with me because you're right. You know, airships in 1800s or, you know, saucers in the 50s. And you've got these triangles in the 80s and the 90s. And it always seems to be something that's just out of grasp of what our current technology is. So, of course, we're going to look at it as alien or, um,

non-human, when in reality, maybe it is just, you know, future tech of humans and they're giving us a little glimpse of what we could be and maybe trying to push us along. I don't know. I don't know. It is fascinating, though, that you kind of see these distinct waves happen throughout the decades of the airships, the saucers, triangles. Now we're seeing all these weird light phenomena and orbs and things like that or things coming in and out. out of our waters, which seems to be pretty popular right now. So now everyone's kind of looking below the surface of our own planet instead of up in space. So I don't know.

I don't know what to make of all of it. Do you? I don't. And I love that. You know, I love not knowing. Not that I wouldn't love to know. I would love to know. But I think what's really interesting in all of it is that, like I'm doing,

my next episode is going to be about the occult origins of the space program. in the U.S., in Germany, and in the Soviet Union, and also how those influences sort of continue through this day. And I think that what's really interesting is how UFOs and the occult and just strangeness, right, is really associated with progress and with our, you know, us taking that next step. And so it does suggest that potentially whatever intelligence is behind the phenomenon is in some way invested in our development and in our evolution. For better or for worse, it's hard for us to know, right? But there's an investment.

And going back to the future human hypothesis, who would be more interested in our own development than us, right? So it does, I do find this kind of intersection of UFOs and the occult and technological development to be extraordinarily interesting. And I think that there's, I think that there's a lot of gold to be mined there. Interesting. I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, we had Mitch Horowitz on the show a couple weeks ago now,

talking all about UFOs and the occult and kind of the convergence of the two in today's modern world. And I do believe there's something to it. I mean, you even go back to, you know, the days of like Alistair Crowley. And the dude's trying to, like, summon. spirits and what does he do? He ends up like summoning a alien instead. So you're like, what is going on here? There's definitely some sort of connection. But I think you're right. Yeah, the occult literally just, and we give it so many bad connotations when in reality, all it is

is, you know, not what we know, not normal. It's there for progressing our entire state of mind and rebel against everything we've sort of been conditioned to believe. And I think that's what UFOs have always been. They're the punk rock of like the unknown, whether it's cryptids or ghosts. Yeah, that's why I've always loved UFOs. They rebel against everything you think they are or the minute you think you have an answer to what they are. They just kind of punch you in the face and say, yeah, nice try. Like, I'm going over to this Mosh pit now.

So I don't know. I don't know. It's fascinating. Well, okay, so we have these different theories on what UFOs are or aren't. Interdimensional and ultra-terrestrial is another one you tackled. And you did touch on that a little bit, but I was wondering if you could expand upon that. Because for me, whenever I hear interdimensional or ultra-terrestrial, it's not that I tune it out, but my mind just can't wrap around what that actually means.

You know, we've heard like Elizondo and these other people saying, yeah, like, what if UFOs or the intelligence behind them was right next to you and you never even knew it? And that just, that always gives me chills thinking about that because I don't quite know what they mean. I don't even think they know what they mean, but it's a theory. So what is this idea of UFOs could be interdimensional? I mean, yeah, I mean, listen, it breaks my brain too. I struggle with it. I think a lot of the issue is that what we don't have is sort of a consensus on what a different dimension even is, right? There's a lot of different models. We can't prove that other dimensions exist, but we do have a few different branches of science

and like, you know, quantum computing and that sort of thing that definitely, um, require the assumption that there are other dimensions. So we have, but we have like indirect evidence at best. But there's, But even there, there's like different models. Like with string theory, I think there's like exactly 11 dimensions, right? And they're, and they kind of fold in on each other. So like the third dimension exists within the fourth dimension and the fourth dimension exists within the fifth dimension.

You know, and I have a hard enough time imagining the fifth dimension that the fourth dimension would reside within, I can't get to 11. I just, I can't. You know, there's also the many worlds theory. So that really has to do kind of with an interpretation of quantum mechanics and the double split, the double slit experiment. Basically, the idea is that they explain the weirdness of the double slit experiment by saying that everything that can happen does happen. And so basically, there's an entire universe constructed around every decision, not just every decision, but like

every quantum system, whether it's a cup of tea that you're steeping or a planetary system or a virus or, you know, any of these or a person around each one of these things, all the things that they could ever be or do. There is an entire universe constructed around each one of those things. And I, that's too big for me. I can't. It could be true. But what do you do with that? And it also kind of, it brings up some interesting questions about free will. Because if you're going to do everything that you could possibly do, then like what meaning does one any individual decision make. You'll be the best person you can be and you'll be the worst person you'll be and none of it will really have to do with your decision making. All of those will exist.

And so I think there's something about that that I kind of like naturally rebel against, but it could technically be true. And then there's just sort of like a more nondescript kind of interdimensional idea or like where you were talking about where there could be, you know, what if there are multiple civilizations living on the earth at the same time, but we're all just sort of like viable. and on a different frequency. Who knows? And so that's a weird one. And that's where it sort of starts to overlap with the ultra-terrestrial.

It's just the idea of, okay, so if there are from here, if we consider the possibility that there is an advanced intelligence on this earth, where the heck are they? And why aren't we aware of them, or at least more aware of them? And that could be everything from a breakaway civilization to, you know, some sort of, you know, an interdimensional being that shares, like, they're in this space, but not really in, like, there are certain circumstances in which they're sort of bleeding through. You know, or it could be that they live underground. I mean, I don't know.

You can go crazy at this point. I'm personally still rooting for mermaids. Got to tell you. Hey, it's just as viable as any other. It honestly is. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so many roads they could go down with that.

I do want to touch on probably one of the most controversial aspects of the podcast that you covered and controversial television shows out there. And that is the show everyone knows what it is, even if they're not into UFOs. And that's Intern Aliens, a show that I'm actually on quite frequently and will be on again. And I know the pitchforks are out for me. and I completely understand it. It was a very hard decision for me to agree to do that. I had my stipulations.

I would not talk about ancient alien theory. I would talk about what's going on in the UFO world today because I have no basis for ancient alien theory. I haven't done the research. I would find it irresponsible to even go on television and talk about those things. But a lot of people do. And a lot of people do ascribe to these theories. And you tackle this topic of ancient aliens in the podcast and in your book.

So what do you think? What was your take on the whole ancient alien theory? And why did you decide to dedicate some of the time in the podcast to it? Yeah. So a couple of reasons. One is that, number one, I'm like the biggest ancient aliens apologist and I won't apologize for it. Like I like ancient aliens. and I don't, I understand.

It's not that I'm, I am unaware of or don't understand the criticisms. And I think that in a lot of ways, I agree with the criticisms. I just take a slightly more nuanced view. Number one, ancient aliens has been on now for like forever, right? At least over 10 years, I think. 18 seasons. Holy cow. Yeah, right here.

That's insane. So in some ways you have to look at it as a product of the time, right? This is not a product of the world that's been created. since 2017. This is a product of a time before. So if you were going to get anything like this on television, there almost has to be this kind of like absurdist angle to it or else they're not, if you take it too too seriously, they're not going to put it on television. And so I think being someone who's worked in the media and with the media for my entire career, it just makes, I just look, I think I just look at ancient aliens with like a slightly more forgiving eye.

I do think that ancient aliens goes a little too far and that they make connections. that aren't necessarily there and they kind of, you know, pigeonhole things to make the story. And, you know, it is what it is. We know what ancient aliens is. But it does expose people. And for me, it exposed me to ideas that I hadn't been exposed to before. And some of them I investigated and I was like, well, that is complete crap. And I can't believe they put this on television. And some of it I investigated and was like, holy, there's really something here. And to me, what it opened up was, number one, an understanding of the fact that there truly are archological sites around the world that are not being reckoned with fully by mainstream

archaeology. And so the whole first episode that I did about this, I really dove into that into, it's about archaeology and epistemology. It's about how archaeology works, what we know for sure in archaeology and what we don't. And so I think that people go into a lot of this with this idea that like we're questioning some sort of like established science. And it's not established science. It's like an interpretation of these sites that could change given a shifting understanding of human history, which is shifting all the time. Just in the last 10 years, the history of humanity on this planet has gone from 100,000 years to over 300,000 years. And we're only one discovery away from finding out the humans could potentially have been around

for even longer than that. And so we're always interpreting these archaeological sites in the context of what we know at the time. And I think it just takes a little while sometimes for things to catch up. Because in particular, in 1990, there was the discovery of Gobeckli-Tepe in Turkey. And to me, that's the linchpin. Like, that is the place. Because what Gobeckley-Tepe tells us is it was built this phenomenal archaeological site in Turkey that shows clear understanding of things like descriptive geometry and complex astronomy and just like art in history and just engineering that should not have existed at the time. This was 6,000 years before this sort of civilization. was supposed to be able to exist.

And it happened right at the end of the last ice age. And so you have to ask yourself during a really tumultuous time on Earth, like that ice age where for a thousand years, it just sucked on Earth. Like it was a bad place to live. 40% of the megafauna just like completely died out. And we saw like, you know, population decline kind of across the board.

Like this was not a time to thrive, right? And so how did they come out of the last ice age with that kind of really deep, developed knowledge. And so that to me answers, like, opens up a big question about our history, which means that now we can start to look at these things in a different way and start asking new questions. I don't think that we then go in and say, it was aliens, you know? I think an interaction, the deeper into the past that we find evidence of advanced civilization, the more we have to ask the question, where did this come from? And how did it manage to? exist when everyone else was seemingly hunter-gatherers.

And in non-human intelligence interfering in some way, is like a possibility that you have to leave on the table. I just don't think it's the only possibility. But I do, I don't think it's a ridiculous proposition. It's only getting every customer's order right. It's only a point of sale system connected by Spectrum fiber-powered business internet, helping you track hundreds of secure transactions. And it's all backed by 24.

7 U.S.S.-based customer support and local technicians. It's only everything. Get business internet advantage free forever when you get four mobile lines from Spectrum. Visit Spectrum.com slash free for life to find out how. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. Interesting. You know, my first guest ever on the podcast was UFO historian Richard Dolan.

And he is kind of known for coining the term breakaway civilization, which I had no idea what the hell that meant when he said it on the podcast. And I still have trouble thinking, is that even possible? Do you think it's possible that there could be pockets throughout the world throughout time that have sort of broken away and are developing these highly advanced craft? Yeah, is this why we're seeing them come in and out of the ocean? Do we got people down underwater doing stuff preparing for something that we hear on the surface don't know about? I know that's going a little too far.

But yeah, what do you make of this whole breakaway civilization theory? I mean, that was an idea that I think when I started, I found to be a lot more ridiculous than I do now. I would actually say that this is probably one of my, it shifts all the time. What is the thing that I think is like most likely, right? But I'd say for a while now, breakaway civilization has been way up there. I think the more that you really dive into some of these anomalous archaeological sites, what you start to recognize is that, number one, civilization seems to pop up real suddenly when it pops up. And it pops up like kind of fully formed. And like all of these different, you know, empires and dynasties that built megalithic structures all around the world. The thing that you see over and over again that's super weird is that the earliest stuff. that they build is the best stuff, right? And why is that? Like, why does it? It's like they build their, they do the best thing. And then after everything after that is kind of just like a copy of a copy of a

copy until it finally kind of. And the other thing we have literally around the world and basically every culture on every continent is this story of knowledge and writing and how to use fire and like coming from either the gods or from some strange visitors or from, you know, it's always a story of someone coming and giving them this knowledge. And so when you see that same myth all over the world and you see these kind of strange patterns, it does make you kind of, and when you, especially when you consider, as I, I personally believe that there isn't, that there is significant evidence to the point that I believe it, that there were pre-ice age human civilizations on this planet. Not like a technological

global worldwide society, but I think that there's evidence that there was like advanced, as we would consider like dynastic Egypt advanced. You know what I mean? Existing before the ice age. If that's the case, and then you have these stories, like, it almost feels like there's, there's something that's persisted that's been seated coming for, you know what I mean? Like, it just seems, I'm not saying I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. for sure that's what's happening, right? But if if those ice age civilizations existed, could that could some pocket of humanity have persisted? And could they, having gone through some major cataclysm, understand the importance of like protecting some like core of human knowledge and accomplishment,

you know, and could they potentially have, you know, could they still exist? Yes. Like, I think they could. And they would be, you know, 10,000 years or more ahead of us, 12,000 years or more ahead of us. exactly so. Interesting. Yeah. And I like the point you made of we are gradually discovering that human civilization existed longer than we first thought it did. And, you know, that kind of brings us up to modern day with Graham Hancock. You know, the highly controversial television show that he just had on Netflix.

And a lot of people were like really upset with a lot of the thoughts and theories he brought forward, while others were like, huh, there's something to this. And I'd actually, if you don't mind, I'd love to move to one of my listener questions has to do with what we're talking about now. Cool. Let's see here. Gareth on Facebook, he says, hi, Kelly, just finish listening to your three-part series on ancient aliens. And I just watched Graham Hancock's recent series, ancient apocalypse. And this is interesting. He brings up Bob Lazar, if you buy into any of the stuff Bob Lazar has said.

I know a lot of our listeners do not. And some do. He says Bob Lazar has also stated that one of the craft at S4 was an archaeological find. Do you think any of these ties, any of this ties together, knowing that evidence is pointing to a global catastrophe on Earth around 12,000 years ago? I do find that fascinating that Bob Lazar stated, yeah, one of the craft we had was an archaeological find. It wasn't like it crashed and in Roswell and we were working on it. Like this was something we dug far into the earth and found.

If that is true, like, man, again, that just changes everything in terms of the conversation, both archaeologically, historically, and I guess euphologically. So, yeah, long-winded question, but I guess Gareth is asking, do you think all these things could be connected? I do think they all could be connected. I don't know where I stand on Bob Lazar. People ask me that often, actually. And I think I've gone back and forth on it so many times that I've just, I'm agnostic on Bob Lazar. I'm interested in what he has to say, but I don't assign any definite truth value to it.

Something strange is going on there. right? Where there's, I just don't feel like we have the whole story, but that doesn't mean I necessarily don't believe him. I would love for that story to be true. That would be very exciting. I do think it's possible, right? Like I said, I don't, I'm not sure that, I'm not sure that UFOs and ancient human civilizations

are connected. I think they probably are. There's a lot of smoke there. And there's a lot of, you know, even when you look back, just the story. stories that are recorded on all these megalithic structures of beings that are coming from the sky, that are in craft, that are, you know, these are the same story. It's essentially the same story. So I tend to believe that there's a connection there. I don't think that we have found the smoking gun that our civilization was seated or that there was some sort of intervention by a non-human

intelligence. I don't think we have that smoking gun yet. And it may not, it may not be related. You know, it may just be another weird thing that we didn't know, that we didn't realize was true and turns out to be true. I think their, my every instinct tells me that they are related, though. Okay. Last question on theories, because I've got some closing questions. And guys, if you have any questions for Kelly, put them in the chat now. As we sort of start to wrap things up, Kelly does have a life and we'll let her give back to that soon. So I appreciate your time, Kelly.

Oh, of course. theory wise. I guess this idea of pansephirmia, you mentioned the word seeded. Are we the aliens on our own planet? Is that something you would entertain? Totally. Yeah, I think there's a couple reasons for that. One is just something that when I started diving into the UFO topic,

something that for me was like a red flag, like clearly this isn't real, is that so many stories involve beings associated with these craft that are humanoid. And to me, I was like, that's stupid. Like, there's no possible way that they're all humanoid. But then the more I looked into it, my thinking on that started to change, right? And so it makes me start to wonder, is there a reason why there are humanoid? Is there some connection potentially between us and them? And we don't know if what we're seeing is even really them, you know, could it be?

be an avatar of some kind, but I do think the fact that they're humanoid is really significant. The other reason, humans don't totally make sense as a species. If I just dropped you in the forest and even like a temperate zone by yourself, you'd be screwed, man. Like, I mean, a super outdoorsy person can make it for a while and there are certainly people who are out there homesteading or whatever. But like, like, we're not made to be left outside. We have to put clothes on you. You put us in the sun and we burn. We get too hot.

We get too cold. If we get too hot, we start sweating and just like immediately dehydrate and die. Like, we are not that we are so poorly designed for this planet that it makes you wonder if we, you know, and also just the way that we, you know, we act like an invasive species. Like when you look at what happens when you take an animal. or species from outside of an ecosystem and introduce it. You know, when something develops within an ecosystem, it evolves to work in symbiosis with its environment because it has to, because it's a give and take. You can't just go in and take, take, take.

There's, there has to be a balance that's maintained there. And we evolve to fit in, well, we things tend to evolve in such a way that they create these kind of symbiotic relationships within their environment. But when you take something out of the environment in which it evolved and you put it into a whole new environment, it wreaks havoc. It screws up everything because it's not supposed to be there. And it's messing up the balance of that ecosystem that evolved without it. And we, when you look at humans, it makes you wonder, are we an invasive species? Yes. I mean, I know it's kind of hypothetical. But, you know, it's kind of hypothetical. But. But I do agree. I think, you know, it, yes, we've evolved a lot of ways technologically, perhaps consciously, physically, but it does seem that we are constantly in a battle

with our own planet of why we're here, what we're doing to this planet. And I do think it's highly evasive, especially this very hot topic of climate. change in the world today. Like, we've gotten to the point where we cannot any longer really argue that the planet is kind of fighting against us at this point. And we've made it that way. Now, whether you want to be a part of the solution or continue the problem, like, that's up to each human being.

And I just hope and pray if you believe in a higher power that we will all come together and try to figure it out before the planet takes itself back. But getting off my soapbox, I do think it is a theory that we need to entertain. And it does seem like we're not the most adaptable species to live on this planet. We really aren't. So no wonder a lot of us are trying to get off this planet, I guess, is another good way to put it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

What else? I know we've covered a lot of what was in the podcast, Kelly, but you also just came out with a book that was kind of inspired by the podcast, which I love that idea. What else did you cover in the book that we didn't mention tonight that you'd like to talk about with our audience? I think we actually covered everything that's in the book. So the book is basically kind of an intro top to the topic, what's going on now, all the different possibilities. And then I take on the ancient aliens thing. I felt like some people might think it was weird to sort of lead with that. But I thought that I really felt like the conversation, number one, to establish that this is a phenomenon that's been potentially influencing humanity through all of time.

And that this kind of 1947 start date isn't necessarily when it started. But also I think just the thought process of looking at like, here's another area in where we have been sort of told that this is subtle science. nothing more to see here, folks, you know, and then we find out that there actually is a lot more to see here. And so in some ways, it was kind of like a thought experiment also in terms of kind of showing people how you can, how you can kind of deconstruct some of this, some of this thinking. I think that especially given everything that's happened over the last few years, there are a lot of people who are very defensive and rightly so of science and of academia and, you know, and who want to say trust the science. You know, that's sort of been a mantra for a lot of people for years. And I can,

you know, contextually, I can completely understand where that's, where that's coming from. But I also wanted to sort of open people's minds up to the idea that like, sometimes academia moves more slowly when it comes to major leaps and innovation. Like when you, you know, peer review is so important. And I'm so glad that we're starting to see people in this space create putting forth peer-reviewed work. It's critically important. So I am in no way questioning or criticizing the peer-review system. But we know about the peer-review system, you know, and I talk about this a lot in the book, is that it's very good at keeping the overall quality of the science that's appearing in journals at a certain level. But when it comes to something that's truly

innovative or outside of the paradigm, it tends to kind of like brush those things to the side. That's how you increase the quality of something, right, as you eliminate outliers. And so, you know, just trying to help people understand that like questioning the mainstream narrative of archaeology right now is not the same thing as not trusting the science or not trusting experts or not trusting academics. Then that there is a certain amount of accountability that we need to bring to those people as well, respectfully. But you know, you can't, you don't want to put your total faith in anyone. You need to be able to be an independent thinker.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. This is a great listener question we got for you. As content creators and artists, do you see similarities between art and how it invites both the artists and the observer into unknown realms in the UFO phenomenon? Very eloquently put. Yeah, why do you think it is? that artists seem to be sort of pulled and drawn to this topic. You hear so many different

types of musicians or artists or everything in between getting involved in this topic, whether it's creatively or having had a personal experience. Why do you think that is, Kelly? I love this question. Hi, Nathan. Hi, Nathan. Yeah. So this is a fantastic question. And I'd also So shameless plug, Nathan and I actually have a podcast together about AI art. It's called perturbations. And you can find it on YouTube. So we talk about these things all the time. Yeah, I see a lot of similarities there. A book that actually has nothing to do with UFOs, but that like really cracked open a lot of kind of the consciousness side of it for me is a book by J.F. Martel. He is part of the Weird Studies podcast.

which I highly recommend. And he wrote a book called Reclaiming Art in the Age of Artifice. And it is one of the most eloquently, beautifully written books I've ever read. And it speaks to exactly, you know, kind of what we touched on before, the sort of the ways in which both UFOs, well, I guess it doesn't talk about UFOs, but the way in which art can sort of connect us to this other deeper realm, this sort of more this realm outside of our daily everyday lives and our consciousness and our reality the sort of deeper reality from which this reality kind of springs you know and i

something it's so incredible to me about the creative process is that i i start this thing and i outline it and i start to prune it and i start to build it and i and it begins to grow but with any work of art, whether it's a podcast or a book or anything else, there comes this point where it kind of takes on a life of its own and where it kind of starts growing towards some unseen light, like the way a plant grows towards the light. It's starting to take on a path that's not necessarily being guided by me and where there's sort of an interactive element to it, where there's a give and take. And suddenly this work of art becomes something separate. from me and becomes something of which, like, I am intimately tied, but that also has a life of

its own. Like, I love people, send me pictures of them holding my book and I think about it. It's out in the world. It's having a whole life and existence that has nothing to do with me. And people are understanding it and reading it and perceiving it and processing it in ways that have nothing to do with me. You know, it's, it's, it has become its own, its own thing. And I think the mystery of that, the confrontation between the human mind and the human mind. And the human, human spirit with something that is unknown and that points to something bigger and greater than ourselves of which we get to play a small part. I think that, you know, there is a lot of overlap between art and UFOs and both of them seem to play a really important role in this

sort of initiatory experience that people tend to go through at the beginning and then kind of throughout this process through their own hero's journey. Yes, bringing it back to the hero's journey. Always. I knew you would be able to book that. I love that. Oh, you bring up somebody. You know, I don't talk about it often on the podcast or on social media, but my primary focus

for the past 15, 20 years is I'm a playwright. I write plays. I've recently written movies as well, but like that's kind of where my, artistic abilities I find really late is in the world of theater. And, you know, I've written maybe a dozen or so plays, and I've had those moments, like you said, of you are so involved in the creative process that you almost feel like you're channeling something or you're co-creating something with an unknown force or inspiration.

and it does start to take on a life of its own. I will lose hours of my life writing one scene of a play and have no idea where that time went. Or I'll start taking on the characters not just in my head, but like literally in my physical space and acting things out. And it's just like if someone saw me from my window doing what I do creatively, they would think I was insane. But that's how an artist works.

And I think there is something truly powerful that kind of takes over when the creative process is happening. And then, like you said, once it's done and it's out there, it's like giving your child away and just trusting that they'll be okay and that whatever you taught them will inevitably help the world somehow. And it's crazy. I spend so much time trying to make an episode every week and get it out on time and adhere to these deadlines that I have or expectations. And you don't always think about who is actually listening or watching this right now. You're so focused on keep getting stuff out, keep doing what I'm doing. You don't take those moments to really sit down and I'll get emails being like, hey, I listen to episode 76. I'm like, oh my God, that was like three and a half years ago.

Like, that's so crazy that people are still finding things. Or I had someone say that listening to the show got them through an extremely hard time in their life where they literally did not want to continue life. And I mean, holy shit. That just brought me to tears. Here I am creating a podcast about the craziest stuff out there, UFOs, but it can help somebody. or it can impact someone's life in so many different ways. And as an artist, you don't always realize that or, I guess, appreciate that in retrospect. So, yeah, so anyone watching or listening, thank you.

Yes. Thank you for just trusting us with this topic and for having these conversations with us. I'm done talking. I love this question that Nathan brought up, and I loved your answer for it. I guess, Kelly, to kind of wrap things up, we have to talk

about the conference that you're going to be co-hosting and going to in New York City. Let me get the title right. An inquiry into anomalous experiences and the phenomenon. This was created by

James and J. Christopher. And it's going to be the second one that I believe you were at the first one as well, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Tell us, if you don't mind,

I know this is in a few days. You must be getting ready and eager to get over to New York. What is this conference in whatever details you want to give us about what's going to be going on there? Yeah, absolutely. I am very, very lucky and honored to have been asked to co-host again. All credit truly goes to Jay Christopher King and James Ian Doley, who have run point on organizing this. And, you know, New York City, that's their stomping ground. So they've really been running point.

they have done an absolutely incredible job. I'm so excited about this series of conferences because I think that it's something that has been so desperately needed in our community for a couple different reasons. One is just the level of credibility and academic rigor that the speakers that they've managed to put together bring to this topic is absolutely vital. You know, no judges and about any other kinds of conferences that are out there. I think that there's nothing wrong with like some U.S. and having a good time talking about UFOs. I have no issues with that. However, where we're at with the topic right now, we really do need these people who are experts and at the top of their field who are creating peer-reviewed work and that sort of thing, you know, to bring credibility

to this topic and to share the cutting edge work that they're doing. Something like this just hasn't existed before and I am, I pinch myself every day that I get to be a part of it. This upcoming coming, well, before I move on, the other reason I think this is so vital for our community is that, you know, this is bringing back to the hero's journey. You know, you, you come into this topic. And some of us, like you have been here for, you know, decades. And there's some of us who have just been here for months and years. And, but regardless of where you are, this is a journey you really shouldn't take alone. You know, you, there's a lot that comes up as you start to grapple with the complexities of the reality that we find ourselves in. And it's better to be. And it's better to

travel in a group, you know? And unfortunately, all of us are so spread out. And like, you have Twitter. I feel so connected to everyone and we talk every day. But there's nothing like getting people into the same room and to just be able to have those conversations and just give people a hug. Like it was, and I have to say, like you said, this is the most supportive community I've ever been a part of. Everyone was just like brilliant and fun and wonderful. And I could not have been more thrilled. Coming up, though, on Saturday, I cannot deal with the lineup that we're going to have. Live stream tickets are still available if you would like to check that out.

And even if you can't watch, we send you the video afterwards if you've bought the live stream ticket. So, you know, even if you can't attend, but you would like to be a part of this, definitely get your ticket. We have Jeffrey Kriple, Whitley Striber, Leslie Keene, Ralph Blumenthal, and Christopher Mellon is going to be there, which is like still blows my mind. So I could not be more excited. And I really hope the people are going to tune in because I think it's going to be incredible.

It's awesome. Yeah, there should be a link down there in the show notes, guys. If you want to attend the live stream version, I know I will be for sure. Actually, spoiler alert, my college roommate is going to this thing, which is insane to me. This dude I used to like, you know, get drunk with and go chasing skunks around the quad at my upstate New York college is going to a, UFO conference to see Leslie Kane, to see Whitley Strever. So talk about like full circle moment for me. This guy who didn't even know I was really into UFOs in college is now going to a

conference. And I told him, yeah, just tell people I sent you. And either either they'll run away or they'll be like, oh, yeah, I know who Ryan is for sure. So yeah, totally. It's just insane to me that we're at. At this point, the UFO conversation. Yeah. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see what everyone's going to be talking about. I know Leslie Kane is going to be doing kind of like a cool Q&A with Chris Mellon. So, I mean, what a rarity to get those two in the same room together to have these conversations. I can't even imagine. It's going to be wild. It's going to be crazy. So are you personally speaking, Kelly? What are you going to be doing at the event? So I'm co-hosting. I'll deliver some like short remarks. I did last time as well.

I'll probably be like less than five minutes. So nothing, no one's there to hear me. So I am very happy to sit down and listen along with everyone else. But it's going to be, it's going to be just a really special time. And the venue is really cool. It's like only 125 people. And so, you know, we're all able to just kind of, I don't know. It was very like cozy last time, which I really enjoyed. It just felt very kind of familial and community, like a community, and I had a great time. That's how it should be.

And of course, like, UFO conferences in New York City were never a thing when I lived there for 11 years. And now the minute I move out of the country, we've got like this amazing event happening, such as life. I know. I'll definitely have to make it. For sure. I think they're going to do a few more next year.

I think it's going to be three. Don't quote me on that. but I'm actually going to try to make it out to the UK for a conference, at least next year, because I feel like there's, we got so many great people in the UK. You've got to come say hi. Absolutely. We've got the whole UAP Media UK group over here, which I'm an honorary member now as an American. They've, for some reason, let me in.

I don't know what they were thinking. I love that. No, love those guys. I know a few of them are going to be attending this New York event, Dan Zetterstrom and Graham Rendell. So again, so cool. Like this event is getting people from all over the U.S., all over the U.K. So I highly, highly suggest people.

Check it out if you can in person, but if not, the live stream link should be right there in the show notes, guys. So check that out. Last question for you, Kelly, before we go. I always like to get people's opinions or suggestions on this. You are somewhat new to the topic. there's people far younger and far newer to the topic. Every day I'm getting new emails from people, you know, in their late teens or early 20s who are getting invested and interested in UFOs.

And I'm like, where was this when I was growing up? This is amazing. And, you know, I always try to help them, try to guide them towards the literature or, you know, shows like yours or stuff like that, documentaries, whatnot. But what would you suggest for anyone just getting interested in UFOs? Where should they turn? What should they do? What pitfalls should they avoid, I guess?

Yeah, what are your suggestions for anyone watching this tonight and being like, whoa, like, I didn't know UFOs or thing, but apparently they are. What would you suggest for them? Absolutely. So, well, first of all, I have to get the shameless plug out of the way. If you start with episode one of the UFO Rabbit Hole podcast, I've written it, so that if you know nothing about UFOs, you can come to the topic and by the end of season one, you'll be pretty much up to speed and at the level of someone

who's been studying this for a much longer time. So that's kind of the goal of how, you know, I put that together. But putting my shameless plug aside, I think there's some amazing resources out there. I would say that the two books, that I think if you want to knock it out, There's so many incredible books.

Once you get started, you're going to want to read them all. But two books that will kind of get you up to speed with an understanding of the topic right now, besides mine, obviously, is Ross Colth Hearts in plain sight. I think that that is kind of like the most sober, unflinching look at just how we've gotten here and what the evidence is that UFOs exist. And then the second one would be American Cosmic by Dr. Diana Walsh Pasilka. And I think that that just sort of takes what you learn. from Ross's book and just recontextualizes it and helps you understand from a slightly

different perspective what this might be and how it might interact with human consciousness. And that's just enough to like kind of crack the door open. From there, I would say to people, follow your interest. Follow the thing that sings to you. I think that in all of this, we each had kind of our different avenues that brought us into the topic and brought us close, you know, that really sparked that interest in us. And the more I learn about this process, I mean, the thing I'm going to write about my book next year with kind of these initiatory experiences, that I think that that initial spark of curiosity around a topic is actually very crucial. And that in some ways, it's like a big green light saying, like, go this way. And so, you know, I would say those are two books that I

definitely recommend. But for people, I think for anyone approaching this topic, get your toes wet and see what speaks to you. And as you start to go down. any one of these rabbit holes that are associated with UFOs, you always kind of find yourself back at the beginning. So don't be afraid that you're going to get lost. Just follow what's really interesting to you, and you will find your own path and your own understanding. And I really think that that's kind of the most important part of all of this.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I know, you know, when I listen to your show, I find myself taking the journey with you. And I always kind of envision myself like going down and then clinging and going back up the hole and they go back down. And I love that. And there's different tunnels to take when you're down there. It's like Alice in Wonderland. It really is. And it's absolutely fascinating. Well, Kelly, last question for you, obviously. Where can we find the book? Where can we find the podcast? And what comes next? So you can find the book or the podcast. All of the information for my website. You can find everything at UFO rabbit hole.com. Or you can follow me on Twitter, which is UFO underscore rabbit underscore hole, which is harder to say than I thought.

So you guys can follow me there. Either of those places, you'll find all the information. It's all linked up. The book is on Amazon. And then as for what comes next, I'm wrapping up season one. I just released episode 15. I think it's going to be about 20 episodes by the time I'm wrapped. There will be a slight hiatus.

Once episodes 20 is done, I'll release another book. It tackles basically episodes 11 through 20. I'll probably take a short hiatus because I'm working, I'm already working on season two. It's going to be a lot more collaborative. And I have a lot of different people that I will be partnering with for that. And I, which I'm very excited about. I want to continue to tell the story, you know, in the way that I have. But it's time to bring in some new perspectives and voices.

So really excited about that. And the big thing that's going to be different about season two is that I feel like season one was really about acquainting people with, the lore, the reality of the phenomenon, you know, just the fact that it's real, what all the different possible hypotheses are and sort of where we are right now. And season two, though, is going to start tackling the thing that we haven't really talked about yet in my podcast, which is experiencers. What do we do with experiencers and with this wide and vast array of kind of anomalous and strange experiences that people have with these UFOs? You know, you see a whole lot of people who are like very into UFOs, but not necessarily. It's harder to know.

it's like yeah okay I believe in UFOs and I think there's probably a non-human intelligence but then I've got this person telling me that like a purple man just came to their bedroom like what do I do what do I do with that and how do I and so I really want to um kind of deconstruct that whole thing and give people a framework with which they can start to understand these sorts of experiences whether they're hearing about an experience from someone else or maybe they have their own experience um you know I don't have the answers to any of this but I think that there's just there's just there There are many other avenues to explore in kind of ways that I feel guilty, to be honest, profiting off of the topic without bringing in the experienceer angle. I think it's, like, vitally important. And that creators, it's important for us to create a world that's safer for people who are actually experiencing and being impacted by this phenomenon that, like, we have so much fun and, like, have our livelihoods around talking about, right? I want to make sure that we're also making the world safer for the people who are really

being impacted by this on a on a daily basis. I love that. Yeah. And for anyone who knows, like, that's, I'm all about the witnesses and the experiencers and that human angle. I honestly believe that the more we deconstruct these, quote, unquote, alien phenomena, the more it's going to tell us about ourselves than whatever the phenomenon actually represents. So I love that. I love that you're going to bring in the experiencers and give them a voice in a platform, we need more of that. And as the conversation continues, you know, now we're talking UFOs and the military and this and that, this and that. But for every one of those Nimitz, Tick-Tac events, there was a hundred people out there from all

over the world who've had experiences too. And their stories have just as much value, I think, in the overall conversation and trying to figure out what the hell is going on in our skies and and possibly even here on our planet. So I love that. I love that. The future looks bright for the UFO rapid hole. I can't wait to see what comes next, Kelly. I'm going to let you go. I've kept you far longer than I told you I would.

And I'm going to have a slight debrief for the audience here. But I want to thank you for your time and for your insights tonight here on Somewhere in the Skies. Thank you so much for having me. This was an absolute delight. I had a wonderful time. That was amazing. You know, a lot of the times with the podcast, I'm a slave to a script. I'm a playwright.

I love to know what's coming next. You know, I always have my questions lined up. But with Kelly, I knew we could just come on and have a conversation. And that's what happened. And I think that's where you get some of the best conversations, to be honest, when you don't know where the road is going. And that's kind of what the UFO rabbit hole represents is. going down these different roads and avenues and clawing your way back up when you think you have

the answer. And it's exciting. It's frustrating. And it's a journey that we all continue to take. So again, I want to thank Kelly for coming on tonight. It was a fascinating conversation. I hope you guys enjoyed it. As for what comes next, we're in the holiday season. And I don't know if any of you were following my Instagram, but I posted a little teaser that I have a very, a couple actually, special holiday themed episodes coming up of somewhere in the skies. So be on the lookout for that, get you in the festive spirit. Oh, we also, here we go. For those of you who don't know, I'm also a crazy wrestling fan.

I grew up with the WWF, the Hulk Hogan's, and the, you know, the Sean Michaels, the Rock, Stone Cold, Steve Austin, blah, blah, blah. And I'm actually going to be, I shouldn't say I, this was set up by my co-pilot, my co-host, Chrissy Newton, we're going to be talking to Lash Leroux, who was a professional wrestler for the WCW and the WWF, now called the WWE. And we're going to talk all about, you know, what it was like being a professional wrestler and growing up in that world. But not only that Lash is an experiencer and has a keen interest in UFOs in The Unexplained. So we're actually going to talk a lot about that with him as well. I'm going to be the one asking wrestling questions. So I apologize in advance to Lash and to Chrissy and all of you.

But hey, how often do you get to talk to someone who literally is like a superhero in real life? Pretty, pretty cool. So be on the lookout for that. Be on the lookout for our holiday themed episodes coming up very soon. And be on the lookout for a new season of ancient aliens coming to you, hopefully soon. You're going to see some familiar faces on there. Some new faces as well. I ran into a couple friends and colleagues during filming, which was really cool.

So look for some new faces on the upcoming season of ancient aliens. And again, please, if you can, December 3rd, the inquiry into a novelist experiences and the phenomenon conference in New York City. Please check that out. Kelly will be co-hosting that. And a link should be right down there in the show notes. If you can't make it in person, the live stream is available as well. So be sure to check that out. Other than that, guys, I want to thank you for hopping in tonight and for asking your questions and in all of your comments.

Truly, truly, truly appreciate it. Check out the socials. And I also just created a TikTok. So you can join me on TikTok as well. Link is in the show notes. And you'll see a different side of me over there. Some fun, funny stuff that I got planned for my TikTok. God, I feel so old, the TikTok.

And yeah, yeah, that's going to be my kind of casual, informal social media where I'm just going to go nuts. So be sure to check me out over there as well. And that's it, guys. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. And as always, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.