Somewhere in the Skies - Leslie Kean & Diana Walsh Pasulka: COSMIC CONVERSATION

Episode Date: March 2, 2020

On episode 150 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan welcomes first-time guest, Leslie Kean, and past guest, Diana Walsh Pasulka to the podcast. The UFO topic has gone mainstream like never before, and these two individuals were at the forefront of that huge cultural shift. Leslie Kean is the author of the New York Times Best-Selling book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record. She also co-authored the 2017 bombshell New York Times article, Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious U.F.O. Program. This article immediately went viral and showed the world that the Pentagon, against all public knowledge and statements, were investigating UFOs. Diana Walsh Pasulka, a professor of religious studies, is the author of the groundbreaking book, American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which follows several high tech entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley who are deeply entrenched in the UFO topic and are spending a lot of time and money investigating the Phenomenon. The book also shows how the topic is gradually becoming a new age religion as more and more people start to believe in an extraterrestrial presence both in our skies and possibly even here on our planet. In this episode, Leslie and Diana dig deep in to the hard questions and the fundamental shift in our way of thinking when it comes to flying saucers and an extraterrestrial presence. Ryan will be speaking at Contact in the Desert this Spring. For tickets, CLICK HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As the crispy chicken sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby, I'm a whole meal.

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Today is a very special day for Somewhere in the Skies because somehow and some way I was able to get two of my biggest inspirations in the UFO field in one digital room together for what is going to be an amazing conversation. I have no doubt. I have with me past guest, professor and author Diana Walsh Posoka, and first-time guest journalist and author Leslie Kane. Thank you so, so much to the both of you for being here. So before we sort of dive in here today, I wanted to give those in my audience who may be new to the whole UFO thing or just hopping in on this episode, sort of a refresher for the UFO buffs out there and a little crash course for the newbies in the work that you two are primarily known for in the UFO world. So I guess, Diana, would you mind telling us a little about who you are and what you're? your book American Cosmic was all about? Sure. So I'm a professor of religious studies at the University of

North Carolina in Wilmington. And I wrote American Cosmic, Religion, UFOs and technology. And it's a, it's kind of a crazy journey through Silicon Valley's entrepreneurs or technopreneurs, really, and how they believe in UFOs and even have, believe that they have UFOs. heart and back engineer them and things like that. But it's also about technology and it's an impact on us and the creation of religions and things like that. And it is also a huge contributor in the last few years, I would say, to the overall UFO conversation and bringing it to the mainstream. And I don't think anyone really knows that better than Leslie. You've done so much amazing work in and out of the UFO research world. But if you wouldn't mind, could you maybe

tell us a little about your book, UFOs, generals, pilots, and government officials go on the record, and also the co-written article you released through the New York Times, which in my opinion, I'm sure others agree, along with Diana's book, has moved UFOs more into the mainstream than ever before. So yeah, can you give us a little bit about all that you've done, Leslie? My book was New York Times bestseller, and it had a forward by John Podesta, and it included chapters written by a lot of really impressive people who I was fortunate as well, where willing to contribute to the book. And it just presents the kind of hardcore best evidence for the reality of the phenomenon. And I think it really established that in a very solid way. So case studies

and interviews and analysis and all of that. And these chapters written by the people themselves, which make it really powerful. It was sort of the culmination of 10 years of reporting that I had done on UFOs prior to that. And so fast forward another 10 years to the present, I co-authored two stories for the New York Times, which to me was like the pinnacle of my career because I would have never expected to be able to do that. And if I could have picked one paper, that would be the one. So December, September 2017 was the first story. And I hear listeners are probably familiar with it, where we both the news about the Pentagon UFO program would have been secret until then. And then in 2019, we did another story about Navy pilots who report.

sightings of UFOs off the U.S. as Roosevelt in 2015. And we also included videos with those stories, official Pentagon videos, which made them particularly, I think, that's a lot of what the drawl was for people. So that's my work in the nutshell. And I mean, once this story hit, Leslie, it just, it completely changed the way we talk about UFOs in and out of the mainstream. And even for the UFO community in general. So I'm sure some of our listeners would be curious. to know how did the New York Times article come about? And what was it like after the article went live? Were you expecting to get the sort of response that you did?

Or how did this all come about, the origin story, as it were? Well, what happened was I was invited to a meeting with Lou Elizondo, who was the person who was the head of this program, or whatever designation you want to call it. He sort of led the program the whole time from 20, 2007 until the time he left, which was in 2017, so it was 10 years. And literally the day that he resigned from that position, I was called down by some of his associates to Washington, D.C. to meet with him. And so I met with him and three other people

who were close to him. These were, two of them were people I had known for a long time, and people who were associated with the program and worked with him. And was shown, the videos, was shown a lot of information. I got to talk to him for a long time to Elizondo. And I think part of the reason for that was to see if there might be something there that could go to the New York Times. And I was, without doubt, I recognized immediately the power of the story. And I was completely blown away by having that opportunity and by realizing what this meant,

that, you know, what we were going to be able to expose if we could indeed get it into the New York Times. So without taking any information with me, but I was seeing stuff that has since been made public over the time period between men and now, and even more stuff that hasn't been made public. I went to my colleague Ralph Blumenthal, who I've worked with before on New York Times stuff, and he was on the staff there for many years. He's now a freelancer for the time. So he's the one that had the door into the Times. we took the story to a lead, the editor for investigations from Washington, D.C., who happened to be in New York, sat down and had a meeting with him. His name is Mark Mazetti and just laid everything out on the table for him and pitched the story, basically. And he said, I'm taking it to Washington.

I'll get back to you in a week. And we got the call in a week. Let's go for it. So that's how it all started. And our editor was the head of the Washington Bureau. So she's a really prominent person within the paper. And we were assigned to work with Helene Cooper, who is a prize-winning reporter for the Times who covers the Pentagon.

She is the person who knows the Pentagon. So we couldn't ask for a better person to work with. And so that's how it started. And then we spent a couple of months doing the work you have to do to make a story and lots of rounds of editing. It was a difficult process. we just kept our goal in mind. And then it came out.

And so that's how the whole thing happened. And the videos were provided by a source that I'm not in a position to name right now. But I think pretty soon that source's name is going to, I mean, he's going to probably reveal who he is because everything else is coming out. But I don't want to be the one to do that. That's a big part of what the two of you, the information you're bringing forward isn't easy to get access to. And you are getting this information with the, you know, the firm deal with these people that they will not be named. And that's how these things work. And I think that's what

makes what both of you are doing extremely vital to what gets out there. And also the fact that Leslie, I mean, the article came out and it really caught the Pentagon by surprise. And they didn't really know what to say. And now we see their statements changing constantly when it comes to this. UFO question and where they lay in all of this. So whenever you look for articles on what's going on with ATIP and the Pentagon and all these different people involved, both your names, Diana and Leslie, keep showing up in the same articles. And I think for those out there who read all those, we've noticed that the work you two do, it intersects in really unique and interesting ways. So what I kind of wanted to do today with the both of you is just stretch out, have a conversation.

You know, we're so used to these interviews where it's question answer, question answer. But I'd rather just kind of open it up to the both of you and see where we lay now in 2020 when it comes to the UFO question. So maybe, Leslie, could you maybe tell us a little about how you and Diana first got connected and maybe a little about why you think the work that you two are doing compliments, one another in the overall UFO question. I think Diana, we first, Ralph and I actually contacted Diana because we were given advanced copies of her book, completely recognized the importance of that book right away. We were trying to find a way to maybe be able to do a New York Times story around the book. But, you know, and then I remember, too, as this journalist, before I'd even met Diana, I was, of course, trying to figure out who some of these anonymous characters were in her

book because we thought to write about the for the New York Times, we would need that. But then I realized there is no way, even if I find out who they are, that I would ever, ever put their names out there. And then gradually, Diana and I just started having conversations and emails and we know some of the same people. And we just got to know each other better and better over time. And we met in New York for the first time. I forget when it was, Diana, not too long ago. So, So, yeah, I think, I mean, one place, you know, one issue that you raised, Ryan, that is very similar for both of us, is having to deal with very high-level people with a lot of knowledge who will not be named. And of course, Diana's book was based on two characters like that. So that might be interesting for you, Diana, to describe what that was like.

It's against what I do as an academic to not reveal sources. I mean, what's what we do is academics is we reveal sources. So I had to get used to just being, you know, I've been doing this since 2012. And so I had to get used to not to actually being okay with not revealing people's names because it could get them in trouble. You know, I don't want to do that. But I also want to write about the topic. I do remember the very day, the very where I was, it's one of the. those things for me when Leslie and her friend at the New York Times came out in 2017 during Christmas,

you know, the Christmas holidays. And it was giant. I mean, I couldn't even believe, well, first I already knew about Leslie's book. And I, um, when I taught courses, I have a section called New Religious Movements. And I would use her book as text in my classes. And the students loved it. You know, it's like it's one of the top five books ever written about UFOs. And it's, It's just such a concise book. And there's no BS in the book. You know, it's really straightforward. And you can't really argue with it.

And so this is the book I would use. And so then I read this. I remember the day I read, I remember just reading it and reading it again. And then everybody, of course, who had anything to do with UFOs went crazy about it. And the general public, I got phone calls from people from Harvard who used to dismiss what I did. And all of a sudden were asking me about my sources and things like that and how they could get involved in the research. So, you know, it opened the door for legitimate scholarship into this area. So Blumenthal and Leslie did this.

And so it was huge. And I couldn't believe it. And everything changed after that. I mean, my book, I don't even think had come out yet. It came out in 2019. So, yeah, my book wasn't out. advanced copies had gone out to people. I didn't know that Leslie and Ralph got an advanced copy. And we had a series of conversations in which we talked about, you know, the question of sources and why they can't be known. And we also knew that this is something that a lot of people would critique us for and get angry about and that type of thing. But we can't ignore the fact that this phenomenon, which I'm looking at, at from the religious studies angle in which Leslie looks out from the investigative journalist

angle, you know, once we understand that, we also have to understand there will be things that we can't know. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident

Restoration is guaranteed. Pour your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com slash Spotify. Terms apply. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point, Diana, that while we're getting these breadcrumbs here and there and the people that the two of you are willing to talk to

can only give you so much, it's a step in a direction that I don't think we've really ever seen before. And this kind of brings me to an interesting question from one of our listeners on Twitter that I would love to interject here that has to do with both of you. Diana, after being immersed in, you know, UFO fight clubs, you know, for a while, do you feel that Tyler and James, these two people who, you know, remain anonymous to most of the public, do you believe that you were sort of when they came forward with the information they gave you? that this was all sort of planned or that American Cosmic was used to reveal certain things that they wanted to get out to the public. How much do you think the people that were in your book, how much you were in control and how much they were in control of what was going on, if that makes any sense? Oh, it does. It does. It makes a lot of sense. And I actually talk about that in the book because, you know, James is an academic and I bring him to the desert with me, you know, when we go there to an alleged crash site of UFO.

And we kind of confer. Well, we don't kind of confer. We confer. And we say, are we being set up? You know, is this a setup? And the question is that, I mean, the answer is that in a sense, this is, this is information that was, that needed to get out and that a certain group wanted to get out. However, I am an academic with integrity. I've never done anything in my career so far that has been something against my own academic ethics. And so I agreed, like I agreed to say, okay, you can be pseudonym. You know, you can have a pseudonym and I won't reveal who you are and you will let me into your world and show me things. And I think that they wanted the public to see. I don't think they thought that,

this would get out as big as it got out, honestly, and go in certain directions that it's gone. You know, there's the unintended consequences type of thing that happens. But I do think that, you know, this was a collaboration with people, and we all made agreements. Even Oxford University Press, you know, we made agreements that we would keep certain things that they wanted us to keep and we would reveal certain things. And the only reason we would keep certain things quiet is to protect human beings, you know, to protect people. And so I agreed to be part of the whole project. And this kind of, this ties into a question I have for you, Leslie. This actually comes from a scientist that listens to our show, the Mad Scientist podcast, Chris Cogswell. On Twitter, he asks you, Leslie,

do you have any further information on how Bob Bigelow's team was vetted by the government during their bidding with ATIP and AOSAP and all these programs were learning. about how much do you know about how Bob Bigelow was connected to all this and where they stand today with what's going on and the information that's been brought forward? Basically, you know, Bob Bigelow was a colleague and friend of Harry Reid's and Senator Harry Reid was instrumental in setting up the program. But as I, what I was told, as I understand it, was anyone could have applied. So what happened was they had a budget to hire an independent contractor who was going to sort of oversee all the research that was going to be done in connection

with the ATTIP program. And any number of people could have applied for that. It was an open deal there. And Bob Bigelow applied and he ended up getting the contract. And I've actually seen the document in which he was granted that contract. And, you know, there was nothing kind of strange or weird about it. He just went through the process that anybody would go through who was applying for that. And he was very well suited for it because he had a background in this field. He had facilities that would have allowed him to do a lot of work. He knew a lot of people. And basically what he did once he got the contract was he sort of stepped aside and hired a kind of an executive director to run everything. And then they got these papers that everybody's

probably heard about these, I think it was 34 papers, research papers that were done by various scientists over the world and covering different aspects of areas that they thought should be investigated in relationship to this phenomenon. And so being a little one, what's the contract came in? He wasn't that actively involved with everything. So Holm Keller, who people may have heard of, was the person that sort of oversaw how everything was going on. So, and I think the main thing was those papers. And what's interesting about the papers is that a lot of the scientists who were asked to do that research did not know why they were being asked to do it. So it's not like they were approached by somebody who said, I'm working for a government program that's studying

UFOs. We want to know this, this, that, or the other thing. They would just not tell them that, but tell them we want to know something about whatever this particular area was. And it didn't have to, they didn't have to disclose the fact that it was concerning with the UFOs. So that happened for a lot of the papers too, which I thought was kind of interesting. Yeah, and I think everybody knows that Bigelow has a history of interest in this topic and also they know about NIDS, the work he did the National Institute of Discovery Science for many, many years. And the work he did at the ranch, which is, of course, in Utah, the Skinwalker Ranch, which is fascinating. So that's, that's basically what I know about the history of his relationship to all

of this. There are a lot of connections that Leslie and I, there are a lot of aspects that are similar in terms of our research, because we're both in a sense, we're outsiders who got let inside for a little bit and not completely inside, but we did get a view of what's going on. And something that Leslie said is something that I encountered a lot. Only certain scientists knew what they were working on. And they would have a whole bevy of other scientists who would not have a clue that they were working on things that had to do with the phenomena. And I think that's really interesting because that goes into what I call the UFO fight club phenomena, right? The compartmentalization of this information so that it would not get out. And I think that that's something that the, I think

euphologists would find that fascinating. I'm not making it up. You know, Leslie just confirmed that this, that again, these people didn't know what they were doing a lot of times. You know, they were working on it. Colm actually, before my book came out, he actually asked, he didn't even know my book was coming out about my work in, with angels, you know, and like the physicality of angels, which I have written about in the Catholic tradition. And I thought, who is this person? And why are they, you know, this is, this was before I was hip to what was going on, you know, and I thought, why do these people want to know about angels of all people? So it was a kind of a confusing time for me to understand that. that, you know, what they're doing is they're looking at the history of this type of phenomena and what they can glean data, basically, from what they can glean from this stuff historically. And this brings us to an interesting facet to all this that we've heard rumors about when it comes to how the, you know, this government with a capital G, I guess, has dealt with the UFO topic. And we've heard that there are those in the classified world who sort of worship the quote unquote, phenomenon. This is a Twitter question that we have from Eric. From the both of you, have you ever come

across these instances where people in the government have looked at the UFO topic from such a religious fashion? I guess, Diana, let's start with you. Sure. Nick Redfern, you know, wrote about the Collins elite. And I've actually, I know that they do actually exist. And I also, I think that they look at this phenomenon. religiously. Okay, that doesn't mean they worship it. It means that they're looking at this from the perspective of a religious framework. You know, a lot of people have really spiritual experiences when they have, when these events occur. And so I think that within the big G government, it's kind of like the Catholic Church. And I'm not a spokesperson for the Catholic Church or the government. But when you

look at each of these institutions, they aren't coherent. You know, there are different factions and aspects of each that don't agree. And so, you know, you have really conservative Catholics, you have really progressive Catholics. They don't agree. Yeah, exactly. We always have to keep in mind that, like, the people within the government, they're, they're individuals, you know. They're not all under one mindset. Everyone has their own agenda, their own motives, their own beliefs. So, Leslie, I guess if you, if there's anything you can add to that in your work with discovering all this with ATIP and the programs with UFOs, that, Did you ever find anything that had religious undertones to it when it came to all this?

Actually, yes. I learned that there are religious Christian fundamentalists within the Defense Department and within the Defense Intelligence Agency way back when the thing started that I believe that UFOs are connected to the devil, literally, that they should not be studied there for. That it's, you know, it's just something evil about them or, dark about them and it just goes against their religious beliefs. And these fundamentalists have done a lot of damage. Initially, they played a role in sort of forcing the original director out of position at the, you know, when he was involved with all of this. Since the program

became more of a DOD program as opposed to a DIA program, there have been people within that, within the department who have pushed back a great deal on this program and caused a lot of trouble, only because of their religious beliefs. And I just found it so hard to believe this when I learned it. Maybe it's not as difficult for Diana to believe this, but for me to believe that, that, to recognize and to learn this, people in positions of power who think that their personal religious beliefs should govern what gets investigated, and especially when these are physical things that are happening and that can potentially be a threat or, you know, an air safety issue. And yet they believe that their religious beliefs, which are really just a belief system that they happen to have,

that they somehow have the right to feel that they should stop all of these studies because of that. I found that to be really shocking, but it's prevalent and it's true. And it's been an issue for the people working on the program. I have to echo what Leslie says here. So I've met many people who, and I even registered this, I remember once on Twitter, when I was on Twitter, that they have, as she said, shut down some of the programs. And I think that part of it is motivated, here I am a religious study scholar, so it's kind of speaking to this, because not every experience is a pleasant one. You know, and people do get like burns and, you know, hurt through this. And I think that they believe that this is evil.

And so they think they're dealing with something that they can't really, you know, they can't get their mind around, right? But they can understand it religiously. So I agree with Leslie. That was a shock for me after my book was finished. And, you know, it's not like the research stopped. The research is still there. And so I was literally shocked to know this.

I think just as Leslie was too. Right. And I think one of the things we have to keep in mind, too, is this recent article that came out where we learned more about the individual studies that were going on during Bass and Ossap and ATIP and all these UFO programs is they were looking at the physical effects that UFOs were having on people. And that's huge. We're not just talking about lights in the sky that, you know, military people are reporting. We're talking about straight up physiological effects. that these things were having on people. So that was a big surprise to me. I mean, was this anything that the two of you were aware of that they were looking at? I was aware of it. It scared me, yeah. I actually had a section of it in my book where I'm with Tyler and James.

And James is talking about the physical effects. He's actually studying them. And during that time period, it scared me, it kept me up that whole night because it was so disturbing. So there are positive physical effects and there are also some negative. They happen to different people. And I think what they're trying to do is find out why they're happening to different people. Like why do some populations have have good effects, right, or interesting effects? And why do some populations have really negative effects? Yeah, I think it really comes down to perspective. Leslie, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I was just, I've been aware of the studies that have been

going on very quietly they've been going on for a long time. And it just to me is one of the most important aspects to study because they're looking into what features of the brain, how features within the brain relate to the paranormal experiences that people have after encounters or whatever, whatever, you know, whatever draws them to having those experiences. There's a whole realm of research that can be done there that's completely fascinating. And I think, you know, what's really interesting about Diana's work. This might be something really interesting for you to comment in Diana is, you know, we've got this, the physicality of the phenomenon, which is so well documented and which you are totally aware of, obviously. And yet you're also looking at it from

this other perspective of its context within religion and mythology and culture. And I think some people misunderstand your work and that they think you're saying that UFOs aren't physically real if they fit into some religious context. So it might be really interesting for you to clarify that for people. Oh, yeah. So basically what I'm saying is that we have someone like Tyler who believes that he's in direct contact with at least benign ETI, right? And he has excellent benefits from it.

People during the Nimitz episode, some of those people have had some very fascinating after effects or, you know, they're basically contact event after effects. And somebody made a list, it may have been high neck of these effects. And they include things like what appears to be precognition and, you know, knowing things and things like that that are, that would be considered kind of like superhero effects, right? And then some people don't have those effects and have opposite effects and, you know, become ill from it. So the question is, is that, and Leslie brings it up, you know, is there something physiologically different about these people? And I think that that's a question that's lots of people are asking right now. I know the Navy is actually do, is asking for

proposals to study people who do have what they consider, they even call it a sixth sense, you know, And they're trying to kind of help develop that. And my question is, I mean, I know why they're trying to do that because it helps soldiers, right, in battle and things like that. But, you know, kind of creating a super soldier. But what's been found out is that through some of these encounters, this is like this part of somebody's brain is like supercharged somehow. And that's fascinating. and I didn't expect it. I'm sure Leslie didn't expect it. Once you get into the research, it's just mind-blowing.

And people just then, I know after my book was published, a lot of people contacted me who were part of different military programs and basically said, this is what happens to me. And I just have so many of these people now, who I correspond with. The whole remote viewing project comes to mind for me, and how serious they took this for so long with SRI or the CIA, like using people with these six cents, as it were, to either weaponize it or use it as a benefit.

So it is a very interesting way to look at all this. And I think when we really look at at ATIP and everything at the surface, these government-funded UFO programs, yeah, that's fine, and that's interesting. but when you really dig deep into what they were exploring, that's when it just blows everything wide open. And the truth is far stranger than any fiction we probably could have thought it was going to be. Definitely.

Hey, y'all, Ryan Spreck here. As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume. But it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the show is worth. be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growing. So please help Somewhere in the

Skies now by becoming a patron. To contribute and to learn more, visit www.com.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. Well, we talked about, you know, these things harming people, the effects on human beings when in relation to UFOs. I got to ask you, too, with a tip and with sort of the way the narrative is being painted today with those controlling what is getting out there to the mainstream, we're seeing UFOs as a threat. This is a threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, threat. We can't stop hearing about this. So I got to ask between the two of you, what are your personal thoughts on the threat? this sort of one angle or narrative that seems to be painted by the way the military looks at all this.

I mean, I just, I think it's important for people to understand that the Department of Defense, the job of the Department of Defense is to protect the American people. And that's what they do. And so if there's going to be a program set up within that department to study this, it has to fit that framework. It has to have some kind of agenda, at least as it's presented officially that will fit into the mandate of the Department of Defense. So naturally, this has to be associated with some kind of a threat in order for them to be able to operate a program like this. And I think, I mean, I remember that was one of the first questions I asked Elizondo about during the time when he first left the Pentagon was his whole thing about, you know, the name

threat being in the title of the program and his concern about these options. Objects could be a possible threat or they are a threat. And we all know that there have not been incidences. I mean, there's been a couple of cases in which pilots were potentially, you know, anyway, there's two cases in my book involving pilots doing sort of battle-type things with UFOs. But in general, UFOs have not been a threat. They have not harmed anyone. And so he explained to me that the word threat, and that's in the scenario where there's,

in the scenario within ATIP is only the potential threat, that anything that we cannot explain that's operating in our skies that is completely foreign to us and that demonstrates extremely sophisticated technology that interacts with our aircraft, and for instance that the Roosevelt comes very close to them, has to be considered a potential threat. But I think the potential is really important.

It's only a potential threat because we don't know what it is and therefore we don't know what it might do sometime in the future, or we don't know what kind of accidents might occur with it. Non-intentional things could happen. So that's why they have to frame it that way, and I understand the context of a potential threat. And I'm talking not so much about what Diana was talking about, about effects on individual people.

I'm talking about interactions in the sky involving interacting with the physical objects. The whole other level of this is the impact on individual people. people, but that's not what the ATIP program is dealing with. It's more physicality of it. Things fly around the skies. And they have to see that as a possible or potential threat. But that doesn't mean that Elizondo where the people involved with the program, or the people even involved now, look at this as some kind of a threat and are trying to paint it in that way because they don't. That's interesting. Yeah. I think that is sort of the biggest debate now is why are the people involved with ATIP and these government programs?

looking at it that way, Leslie. So I'm glad you could clear that up for us because I think you're right. I think the potential threat is the problem. When you look at the Nimitz event, you have the radar operators and pilots saying this could have started a war or you look at the case in your book, Leslie, with Parviz Jafari having a dog fight with a UFO. These are potential threats to the people who are up there to defend us. And it could cause harm to them at their own hand. So it might not be that these UFOs want to harm us or hurt us, but it's our reaction to them that could really do that. That is the reason that this, I mean, that's one of the main reasons why this needs to be made public. What you just said about our reaction to them, because, for instance, commercial pilots, if they're not allowed, first of all, they're not even allowed to talk to them at risk, but they should be encouraged to report these things because, and this was a point that the generals and others made,

in the French report called the Commetta Report, which is what got me started all of this in 1990. They made the point that if pilots aren't educated about these things, there's a risk of an accident happening because of their reactions, not because of anything that the UFO is doing, but because the pilots could react in ways of fear or they have a knee-jerk reaction to do something dangerous. And the only reason for that is that they're not informed. They're not given information about the phenomenon. And they're not even allowed to talk about it. So I just wanted to add that that's a big reason why this needs to be made public and why the commercial aviation world needs to become, you know, have a better relationship to it and to encourage their

pilots to be educated about it because it's going to lead to some kind of accident someday if we don't do that. Okay, Diana, sorry for jumping in like that. No, no. Leslie articulated it perfectly. In the beginning of my book, I think in the introduction, I quote Eric Davis, and he basically said, you know, the fact that we have unknown things flying around that, you know, don't look like they're foreign and don't look like they're ours is a case for the Department of Defense. It's a military situation. And I think that the DOD is doing their job. I mean, I, I, you know, met so many military people who were involved. And, you know, it's not conspiracy against the American people.

I think that what they're trying to do is actually help and defend us. And they're doing their job. But I agree with Leslie. I think that at the time, you know, there are too many people who see them. And there are too many people who encounter them for it to stay status quo. I think it's time now to acknowledge and also to move on and to say that, you know, You know, we're not in a fight here. The American people are not in a fight with the military regarding this.

And, you know, if they're keeping something, it's, it's, they're doing it for a reason. You know, we don't ask them to share information about people that were, you know, at supposed war with or something like that because we know that they're doing that for a reason. So we trust them in that respect, you know, so I agree with Leslie completely that, that the people that I met at least, they were, they believe they were doing their job. and I believe they were doing it too. Well, this kind of brings me to something that really, I think, melds both of the worlds together of what you two are doing in terms of investigative journalism and research.

And that's the Vatican. The Vatican has become much more vocal, I'd say, within the last year or so, about their stance on the whole alien question or even UFO cases specifically. So I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on mixing. the largest religious, you know, organization in the free world and, you know, governments around the world when it comes to these topics. So I guess, Diana, yeah, would you mind commenting on what's going on with the Vatican somewhere you've actually gone to into the secret archives and looked at their stuff? Okay, so I'm not a spokesperson for the Catholic Church, and so I always have to, you know, qualify that. I do work with them, though, on projects having to do with biolocating saints.

and Levitating Saints and things like that. And I've been there. I was there with Tyler. I report about that in my book. And I have seen, they have a space observatory, by the way, where they house all information that has to do with space and space research.

And that's in Castle Gendulpha, which is about an hour and a half outside of Rome. And it's run by Brother Guy Consolmagno. And he is, I believe his, oh, what does he do? He's, oh, he's a, they're really looking meteorites a lot. They have a huge meteorite collection. And so they have a giant telescope there, but they have a bigger one in Arizona where they actually do a lot of their work. And so what's up with the Vatican and UFOs? I think that there is no official position on

UFOs with the Vatican. I know that's the case. And just again, like the government, there are different positions within the Vatican about UFOs. I know some people who believe in them and believe that they are, you know, created by God and that they exist. But you do have the space observatory. They're basically running conferences and inviting people from SETI and from, you know, all over the world to talk about the potential once, you know, it's out that UFOs exist. How is that going to impact religions? How is it going to impact beliefs and things like that?

So they're actively studying it. And in terms of their historical records, they're fascinating and as one who has seen them, they do actually have a whole, what would you call it, a whole wall of search for extraterrestrial intelligence. So they do have that. I've seen it. And I don't know if they're going to open that up. I would be surprised if they did, but maybe they will. So a lot of people out there, they believe that there could be a kind of. connection between the ideas of miracles or otherworldly beings or angelic beings, this all somehow

being interconnected. And I would love to get your thoughts, both of you on this, since, Diana, you are a professor of religious studies, and Leslie, you wrote a book all about the afterlife. This and past lives as well, this is a really interesting thing that a lot of people haven't explored in depth, but this idea that they could be one in the same, that these things we think are supernatural or paranormal or spiritual are connected to ET. So have there been any sort of cases or things that either of you have come across where this could possibly be the case? I could first say that in my book, I do explore that. I explore, especially with, I think that if you're audience is aware of UFOs. They're aware of Ray Hernandez and his experience with his wife

in scene and flying saucers and things like that. And how his wife, whose Catholic, interprets it as angelic, while he, agnostic, former atheist, interprets it as, you know, more of a technological UFO type of thing. So you've got, you know, two people married and two interpretations there. Chris Bledso goes and, you know, re-examines his own Christian religion and identifies that it's really about kind of like the history of UFO contact. And so he believes that these things are angelic. And then you have a character in my book who becomes, you know, from believing their UFOs, but there is a more complicated question than for him as the book goes on and starts to see them in a different light. So yeah, I see that. And

And I know that Leslie's research goes on from what she had done to something completely connected, but in a different way. Yeah, it's interesting you say connected because when I first started researching the book, my book Surviving Deaths, came out in 2017, which deals with issues related to consciousness and near-death experiences and a lot of stuff exploring the possibility that consciousness survives. death, I actually didn't see that to be at all connected with UFOs when I started. I thought, it's just something completely different than I'm doing now. And in a lot of ways, it was very different because my work with UFOs always focused just on the physical aspects of it, although I knew about other aspects of it. I didn't really bring them into my professional work. And so as I went along with this, I started to sense that there was some connection.

And then Diana's book really opened me up to that reality that there is a connection. And I'm really interested now in trying to find out more about what that is. I've been exploring the work of Jeffrey Krippel from Rice University, who writes a lot about issues that show how they all interconnect, how experience. People have UFO experiences are similar to all kinds of other kinds of paranormal experiences that people have. So I think that's sort of one of the cutting-edge questions right now, and I think Diana's book set this off, really, is finding the way that all of these things interreact, that UFOs relate to consciousness, that UFOs in some way relate to near-death experiences and other aspects of consciousness existing without a body and all the kinds of paranormal experiences that people have.

And I'm really new to looking at it all that way, but I'm interested in exploring that connection a lot more. And, you know, one thing that does come to mind is that UFOs seem to be some kind of interdimensional thing, at least for a lot of the sightings that are reported, not just the beings, but also the craft themselves and the way they behave, that they can just disappear, for instance. Almost people describe them as almost going into some kind of a portal or something. And Whitley Streber has written about the fact that the UFOs exist in some other dimension, which could potentially be the same one that people go to when they die or the same one that people visit when they have a near-death experience where they die and have an experience of the afterlife and then come back. So the interdimensionality of all of it is sort of an interesting place to start. I think Diana's gone way beyond that, but I'm just sort of beginning to learn more and more about this.

And I think it's really, really fascinating. Yes. So I have to agree, when I first started to talk to people who've had experiences, a lot of them would also have these experiences at a place, a location where one of their loved ones passed away or died. And this was incredibly poignant to hear. Chris Bledsoe comes to mind. He lives near me, and I know his experience inside and out. He had, before he was married to his current wife, he had a wife who,

passed away in a car accident. And he had an experience of seeing a UFO right where she passed away. And this is something that I've seen as a pattern in UFO experiences. And don't ask me if I know what it means. I do not. But you have to take it as data because it happens so frequently. And Whitley Streber and Jeff Kreeple actually, Whitley Streber actually writes about it a lot. And it was his wife, Anne, who basically said, I think that this is, this phenomenon has something to do with death. And I've never forgotten that. And their book, The Supernatural, is really interesting. And Willie is a funny guy. He actually is, he's got a sense of humor and about this phenomena. And he writes about, you know, having these experiences and seeing people who were passed away while he was having these experiences.

And he said, and, you know, list me with those who have had UFO experiences and have seen the dead, right? So, I mean, it's really very strange. And I agree with Leslie that it's most a lot of the behavior of the crafts look interdimensional. And what does that even mean, you know? So that's where we have to talk with scientists and bring them in. It's an interdisciplinary research project here is, you know, what we're looking at. biological as well, you know, because the way it and do certain people with certain brain characteristics are they the ones that have that connection to all of this as opposed to somebody

else who doesn't have that kind of a brain? So that's, it does, it is, it's like a massively huge question for all these disciplines to come together on. And it's just so unfortunate that there's this taboo still exists. And so that there isn't money provided by the, you know, by the standard sources, at least for scientific research, to allow these things to happen. People just have to take them on on their own and they're very private about it. And so maybe someday there will be a recognition of the value of all of this and it can be funded and we can really learn a lot from that. I think, you know, hearing that both of you are exploring these other avenues along with other scientists, journalists, and even the military, this idea that when we're dealing with the UFOs, it's

not just aliens. I have grown so tired of, you know, mainstream media outlets always going back to this. Like, we're dealing with little green men. We're dealing with spaceships from Zeta reticula. It's one tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what this all could be or represent. So it's fascinating to know that there are still avenues we can go down to try to find answers. Because look, what has it been since the modern UFO era began, 70 years, whatnot, of us looking at this as alien and finding absolutely no solid, verifiable evidence that that's true. So I think it's exciting to know that we can look at it from different ways. We have people looking at it as humans from the future with future technology. We're looking at it from a consciousness level where maybe this is the only way

we will someday interact or communicate with the phenomenon at large. Who knows? knows, but it's exciting to hear that these things are being explored, and we can only venture a guess as to where it's going to go. But sort of wrapping up the UFO side of all this. I love to get some ideas or advice that you would give some of our younger UFO listeners who are kind of just getting in to all of this. You know, we have this whole TTSA thing that is kind of out there in the media. And do you think there's room for the rest of the UFO world to continue their work separately

from what these guys are doing? And what advice would you give those who want to study UFOs and are looking for answers to these huge questions? Diana, what advice would you give to those looking into this topic? I would start with field research. So that's what I do. So I started with talking to people, who have had the experiences. And then from there, be ready to be incredibly shocked and,

you know, have your mind open to things that you never thought were possible and to synchronities and coincidences and, you know, and to having, you know, your worldview changed. I mean, that's, I think, what you have to be prepared to do. I wasn't prepared for that. And it happened anyway. So I loved Leslie's book because it was a grounder for me. And, you know, read people's books like Leslie's books like Jacques Valet's books like your book, Ryan, that talks about the human experiences, you know, of this. You need to read those books and listen to interviews and podcasts of people who are doing it. And you'll naturally find your way. Leslie, how about you? Is there any advice you would give those who are trying to find answers to

all of this? Yeah, I mean, what Diana said makes complete sense to me. I think I would advise people to be very careful about exploring this on the internet because there is so much stuff out there that's just based on supposition or conspiracy theories and people making all kinds of assumptions about what they are and you know you've got to be very careful to be listening to the right people to very reliable people I think the experience around is different because people are sharing their own personal experiences but when you come to it comes to sort of data about what UFOs are and stuff like that. You've just got to be really careful. I think people probably know that. You know, it's interesting too when we were talking about

the issue of UFOs expanding well beyond just the physicality of it and how I'm interested in that. I still have to say that in terms of the work that I do and what I'm going to put out there and continue to put out there through places like the New York Times, has to be focused on that level because the only reason that the story in December 2017 had such an impact and allowed like briefings to occur within congressional committees

and things like that was because it was just so purely factual and government oriented. And so my job is to continue to put things out there that are just like that, that are simple and physical and data driven so that I can continue to get people in the policymaking world

and the scientific world and the governmental world and all of that to take the subject seriously because the work that Diana does goes way beyond just sort of the simple like level UFO 101 which is hey there's physical things out there that exist that's basically the message that I have to keep giving out through my work and I'm going to continue to do that so that I can't bring a lot of the elements of this into the articles that I write. But that doesn't mean they're not extremely important

and that they're not the future of where we need to go. It's just that I have to be careful what I say so that I can keep doing the job that I'm doing, which is to reach important people with very basic, unarguable facts about the fact that the thing exists in the first place. Right. I think what's really important is in our world today, 2020, post New York Times article and mainstream really starting to take this topic more seriously is that we can now say UFOs exist. And I think that's, you know, can't even be argued at this point. Now the question is, what are they? What do they represent? What do they want? And that's a huge shift since, you know, we started looking at this topic and phenomenon some, what, 70 years ago, even dating way, way back

before that. But this question of, you know, do UFOs exist? Yes, we know that now. There's definitive proof and documentation of that by our governments. Now, where do we go after that? So I want to ask you both sort of wrapping the bigger questions here. With all of your research and your, the relationships you've made, the stories you've heard, what are each of your personal best-educated hypothesis on the nature of these phenomenon? Or is there even one answer to it? I would guess not, but I'd love to hear both your thoughts on that. You know, that's a giant question there, Ryan.

To end with? I know. I know. I want just to take a moment here and credit Leslie with, you know, changing the direction of UFO research here. What she's done is momentous and unprecedented. And I just want to, you know, acknowledged that because, you know, it came out, you know, the article it blew everybody's minds.

And I was like, wow, Leslie Kane has done something incredible. And I think we need to acknowledge that. So before I answer, you know, what the next type of thing is, I think that that has to be acknowledged. And, you know, she really made the way for my book to come. And my book was, you know, published. So, you know, the timing was impeccable right after she opened the gate. And my next book is just going to be focusing on people that I met that are along the same lines as Tyler and James. And I'm going to be focusing more on the cognition that seems to allow for contact. Leslie, do you have anything to add to that in terms of where you lay personally? You know, we have your investigative journalism that we've seen throughout the years.

But what are your personal thoughts on the nature of the phenomenon? if that's something you're comfortable sharing. I basically feel that it's something huge that we don't understand. We don't know what it is. And I think all the questions are really compelling. We've been discussing what those questions are that need to be studied. And it's just this massive, big mystery. That's what makes it exciting.

But I'm just aware of how big it is and how much we don't understand about it. I mean, there's the physical element of it, the at-tip element, which is what I focus on in my professional life, but there's also a way bigger element to it, which Diana has written about. And people like Jacques-Ville have written writing about it for years. So it's just, I don't know what it is. And I hope we can just keep learning more about it. The more we know, the less we know, really comes into play with this phenomenon. And that's exciting.

You know, I think the journey is far more rewarding and trying to find answers than possibly finding those answers. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But I want to sort of close up here and ask, you both are going to be speaking at contact in the desert. I'll be there as well. This is going to be in Indian Wells, California. Is there anything you're willing to share with us about what you both will be talking about at this event? I'm going to be doing a lecture about, I've,

called it UFOs, journalism and the New York Times, just about my career covering this as a journalist, what I've learned along the way, and then I'm going to discuss the whole New York Times story, how it happened, what it meant, what the process was like, and allow people to ask a lot of questions about it. And then my second presentation is on surviving death, the book that I wrote that came out in 2017, which covers a whole lot of aspects of consciousness in relation to the question of whether we survived death, a lot of evidence for that, as well as my own personal experiences, which I'll share about that. Yeah, so that's basically what I'm going to do. I just wanted to thank Diana for her comment about my story in the Times, which is not my story.

It was a three-way story. Three people were involved in writing it. But I also wanted to say, you know, I think that her book is just, I think it was so important her book because it opened up the door to the academic community, the scientific community, the government community, the door to the sort of weirder aspects of this, and the bigger questions about it, and the historical context for it. And all of that was presented in a way that made it accessible to very, very high-level intelligent people. And I know that it's being read at those levels. And it was a game changer in that way, because we've had discussions about these things off and on for a long time, but she pulled it together and added a level of insight to it that's never been done before.

So I don't know, we're kind of the mutual praise society here, but I just had to acknowledge that. I think that Diana's book is really, really, really significant. And I hope that people who haven't read it will do so because it's a brilliant book and it's a game changer in the same way the New York Times was just in a different way, but it's a game changer. See, that's amazing. I mean, I think if more people took the time to build each other up and work off of each other's work, we'd get a lot further in this field. And this goes for any scientific field, academic field. You know, we challenge one another and we ask new questions. And I think that's important or we're not going to get anywhere. So I have to agree, the contributions you two have made to this field in the past few years have outshone so much that's, comes before it. And that's not to say that the work by many other people isn't appreciated, the work of Jacques Valet, the work of Whitley Streber, everyone, all these people that have looked

at the UFO phenomenon in every way possible. Every story, every hypothesis, every opinion, I think, holds some value in the greater question to all of this. So I want to first and foremost thank both of you for taking the time to do this with me today. We somehow pulled it off and got got together and made this happen, this digital roundtable. And I can't wait to see what the two of you come up with next. So yeah, let's sort of end here with. Diana, where can we find out more about what you're up to? Oh, I'm going to talk a bit about it at Contact in the Desert, actually. The next book is I'm writing up the proposal right now. And as I said, I'll be redoing my website and kind of talking about what I'll be doing on my website.

And that's probably if people want to look. It's not up yet. But that's if they want to find out what is next. That's what it's going to be. And it's also going to be kind of a historical look at people who have made use of this type of cognitive talents, I guess you could call it, in the past. You know, there have been people in the scientific community in the 1600s, 1700s, 1700s, 1800s on up that have actually known about this thing and used it. So that's another thing that

people don't realize and don't, you know, it's like a part of history that's untold. So I think that's fascinating. And my book looks at that and brings it up. I'm going to spend some time on a soldier, a Marine, and his training into this. That's very exciting. I can't wait to learn more about that. Leslie, where can we find out more of what you're up to? I would say my Facebook page, which is, you know, an author page so you don't have to be a friend, you just go on. And I have a website which is surviving death cane.com. My last name is K-E-A-N. But I think the best place is probably my Facebook page.

This has been a dream come true for me. So thank you to both of you for coming on Summer in the skies today. Thank you, Ryan. It's been great. Yeah, really good. I hope maybe we'll do it again sometimes. It's great. That's it for this week's episode.

my special thanks to both Leslie Kane and Diana Walsh Basilca for coming on the show. It was truly an honor talking with two of the people who I personally believe have moved UFOs to the forefront, both in the worlds of journalism and academia, like never before. Be sure to join me next week where the conversation continues with Leslie Kane, where we will be discussing in-depth her new book, Surviving Death. We'll be joined by another special guest for what turned out to be one of the most powerful and compelling discussions I've ever conducted on the podcast. If you have a few moments, please subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts, your Android apps, or wherever you get the show.

It helps us gain visibility and find new listeners. We're on Twitter at SummerSkies and Instagram at Summer SkiesPod. Be sure to get your tickets now for Contact in the Desert. They are going super quick. To learn more and to get your tickets, visit Contactinthesert.com. If you have a UFO story you'd like to share or to contact me personally, use the contact tab on the website, somewhere in the skies.com. My special thanks to the E1 Podcast Network, Roke Planet, and especially to you for listening. I'll see you here next week, and remember,

keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching, Somewhere in the Skies. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network. To learn more, Visit Entertainment One Podcast.com.