Somewhere in the Skies - Love & Saucers with Brad Abrahams

Episode Date: February 26, 2018

On episode 45 of the SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES podcast, Ryan speaks with Brad Abrahams, director of Love & Saucers. This is the story of David Huggins, a seventy-two-year-old who lost his virginity to an alien woman-among a hundred other E.T. encounters- and chronicled it all in surreal paintings, few of which have ever been seen. Until now. Ryan and Brad discuss the film in depth, diving deep into the bizarre accounts of Huggins and what the people in his life think about it all. No matter your thoughts of alien abduction, the film examines one man's struggle with reality and the world around him, culminating in a very human story about an otherworldly lifetime of experiences. Guest Bio: Brad Abrahams is a director from Canada, currently residing in the U.S. His work has been seen on CNN, Fast Company, Wired, Vice, Huffington Post, Cosmopolitan, Gawker, LA Times, The Verge, Indiewire, and film festivals around the world. His first feature-length film, Love & Saucers, has garnered multiple awards and recently received worldwide distribution. Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Official Store: CLICK HERE Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with eOne Entertainment Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific Time. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here. As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume, but it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the show is worth. You'll be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growing. So please help Somewhere in the Sky's

now by becoming a patron. To contribute and to learn more, visit www. patreon.com backslash somewhere skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's Brad. Why did these beings choose me? There is an orange, yellowish light comes on. David is looking at the light and doesn't hurt his eyes. He is aware of the beings. They are standing over him. They are touching. his body. My name is David Huggins. I'm 72 years old, and I live in Hoboken, New Jersey. I was living a perfectly normal life until I started remembering things. It was just like image upon image upon image. It wouldn't stop. I was so scared. The eyes were just glowing.

They hit the ground running straight toward me, and we floated up to some type of craft. You hurt me, you hurt me. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is the woman I never told anyone about. When I was 17, I lost my virginity to a female extraterrestrial. That's all I can say about it. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprague.

So I've been researching the UFO phenomenon for about two decades now. God, that makes me feel old. Anyway, I've watched plenty of UFO phenomenon. UFO and alien abduction documentaries throughout those years. They come and go. Some being alluring in terms of content. Some being complete bullshit. And some that stay with you for years to come.

Begging the question, did this actually happen to this person? And that's exactly what happened when I first watched Love and Saucers, the far out world of David Huggins. The documentary is the story of David Huggins and not assuming 7.5. 22-year-old who claims to have had a lifetime of encounters with otherworldly beings, including an interspecies romance with an E.T. woman, with whom he lost his virginity to, and chronicled it all in surreal impressionist paintings. Are his experiences a dream, a hallucination, or could they be real? Today I discuss the story and the process of filming with director Brad Abrams.

We dig deep into how the documentary came to be. The incredible story that Huggins brings to the table and just exactly what Brad thinks of the entire abduction phenomenon through the lens of his first feature film. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Brad Abrams. Brad, thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. I'm happy to be here. So your film has been making the rounds both in and out of the UFO community lately and with good reason.

It is a stylish, extremely well-made and compassionate film called Love and Saucers. And immediately after viewing this, man, I had to reach out to you to get you on the show to talk about what the experience was like filming this. But before we even get to that, I would love if you could sort of give our listeners, who may not have seen the film yet, maybe just a little elevator pitch about what this film Love and Saucers is all about. Sure. So at its core,

it's about a totally normal, 70-something guy who lives in Hoboken, New Jersey, works one day a week at a local deli, does some painting, loves watching sci-fi movies, and also lost his virginity to an extraterrestrial woman. And that's one of over 100, encounters that he claims to have had a lot of them sexual in nature or romantic in nature. And he

has chronicled every single one of the encounters that he remembers in these stunning, sort of surreal, impressionistic paintings. And this film is his story, trying to tell it as matter-of-factly as one can tell a story like this. Yeah. And, you know, as we'll get to, he's pretty, pretty blunt about it. He didn't really tip-y-toe around, you know, oh, I think I was maybe taken or this or that. Well, we'll definitely get into that. But how, I have to ask, too, like, how did the idea for the film come about? How did you even get involved in the UFO topic and get connected with David?

Well, it was not UFO specifically, but just sort of esoteric, paranormal, just these hidden, little-known stories have always been a passionate mind, just personally, like reading about them, because who isn't fascinated by, you know, discovering a lost city. or ancient culture, but as a way to, you know, as a, as a filmmaker and I did commercials before this, just as a visual storyteller, what better way to expose people to these stories that they may never have heard about or heard about in a particular way than filmmaking and documentary filmmaking. So that's how I got into this niche of filmmaking, not necessarily like UFO, but I, because of this, I was always listening to podcasts.

And about five, six years ago, seven years ago, there were only a few of these sorts of paranormal-ish podcast. And I think I was listening to the paracast. And I had just quit my full-time job in advertising and was sort of had my ears pricked up for any ideas I could do as an independent filmmaker. And they were talking about the abductee experience and sort of listing different cases. and offhand as something like too ridiculous for them to discuss was this guy, David Huggins, who claims he fathered 100 space babies across the galaxy. And then they laughed and moved on. But for me, that was like the thing I remembered out of everything from the podcast because,

you know, does this guy exist? And if he exists, how can he not be anything but crazy? Or, you know, is he somehow telling the truth? So I tried to track him down and I couldn't because he has no internet presence, which is pretty rare these days, even for an older guy. So I had to track down a neighbor of his, Farah Yerzzu, maybe some people in the UFO community have heard of her. She has had some extraterrestrial experiences. And when she found out her neighbor, David also did. She made a little photo book of some of his paintings. And I found that online, got her email,

and she gave me David's home phone number. And I just took it from there. That's really interesting story. Like that's, that's, determination of, you know, a budding project. You're like knowing you had to talk to this guy and go into those lengths to track him down. That's extremely admirable. That's awesome. Well, what do you, what did you think of when you first, you know, connected with him? And I know you had to have that first face-to-face contact and be like, okay, where are we going to go from here?

What was that experience like meeting, David? Well, the first, I'll talk about the first phone call. because I opened the film exactly how the first phone call started, which was like once, you know, hi, I'm Brad. We introduced ourselves. He just said, well, Brad, I don't know much, but what I know for certain is at 17, I lost my virginity to an extraterrestrial female. And, you know, what a way to start a conversation.

And it just more cemented my desire to try and pursue something with him. And so we had many phone conversations before I met him because I wanted to get the whole story and really have a focus for when I visited. And he actually invited for me to stay at his house for the first filming, which, since I was self-funding it, it was welcome, even though I knew it would probably be a little strange and awkward. And it was, I ended up sleeping in his ex-wife's bed, who actually still lives with him, but she was away on vacation, thankfully.

And from morning to night, I filmed with David. And for every single, like, bizarre thing, you know, like the, you know, 100 plus paintings stacked up in his studio to his 2,000 strong VHS film collection, there was his personality that completely balanced it all out because I'd never met someone who was so, like, immediately, like, grounding down to earth, simply spoken, matter of fact, about the most, like, bizarre things you'll, you'll, you'll, ever hear. So it immediately creates this, this conflict in your brain where you're like, I shouldn't be like believing what he's saying, but because of who he is like his character, I sort of have to. Because he's not some like ranting lunatic. And everyone that's met him will say like, David just seems like the nicest normal guy. So it makes you stop and pause and consider listening. And so that was really what made it worth it for me to pursue, like, over the years to finish this film. Well, I mean, that over the years comment, Brad, I'd love to know this wasn't like shooting for a week with this dude, hearing his story and then never talked him again.

Like, this was a pretty rigorous process. How long did you film David when you were shooting the film? It was over, over a few years with, like, long breaks in between because just the reality of independent filmmaking is you, You don't have much money, and when you do have money, it's still not a lot. So you can only go shoot for a few days at a time. But what's good about that process is then it takes much longer and you get to know your subject much better. You see them over a greater period of time.

It actually helps to flesh out the story as opposed to, you know, I'm just going to go film with you for two or three weeks straight and then have a finished film. So it was really just like a weekend. or three or four days every maybe year or six months or so. And then it started accelerating as we had more support and knew that we had like a pretty good film on our hands and opened it up and started filming, you know, Jeffrey Criple and some of David's friends and colleagues. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, you did mention the, you know, the VHS as you saw when he went into his house, which was really cool, by the way, as someone who grew up on VHS. Like, that was, it was a very nostalgic moment seeing those stacked, you know, ten high all across the room. As for his paintings, did you know that, I mean, you had mentioned that you saw the book that Farah had created about all of his experiences, but did you know walking in there that you were going to see like these massive huge paintings that this guy had made? No, not at all. And I only found out about the painting part, like, a little deeper into my research on him. And once I saw some of the images, they were very low-res what was online, but I could still, like, immediately tell, like, they were very arresting. And they're all painted in a way that there's a story being told in them. They're very cinematic, which is unique, especially for someone who's mostly self-taught.

And so they're like, as a, you see, you pick up, like, these are little scenes from a film, the composition, the lighting, the action in them. and but no I was not prepared for when I actually stepped into that room because just the sheer volume of them and and then the size like some of them are like eight feet tall it really it really sort of grabs you and you're almost like jaw dropping and it was the same effect when I we returned with some crew like a cinematographer and sound guy and producer they were just like oh my god and every time we went we would find more paintings that we we hadn't seen like Like I thought, like, the first time I photographed, like, 75 paintings. And then each time we'd come back, there's like, oh, five new ones.

Yeah, and in person, the effect of them is even more eerie than the photos. Yeah, they're extremely arresting. Like you said, like, you know, he was self-taught. So they're a bit amateur at times, but I mean, I'm no art expert. But they're so engaging some of them when you look into the eyes of like the creatures or, you know, just the action. you see in each painting. Like, you can tell that this dude is struggling to get this out onto the canvas. And I think that's extremely alluring and something you use as a really cool technique throughout

the film when he's telling his stories. But before we even get to, like, what he claims happened, you do go into, like, a deep dissection of this man's life, which I think it was very important. I wanted to know where he came from, you know, what brought him. to Hoboken, New Jersey, and what essentially became this incredible story. And it was pretty interesting to hear that he fled a very religious upbringing. And belief seems to be a big part of the alien abduction phenomenon. So I have to ask you, do you think that his rejection of religion early in his life, do you think that had anything to do with how he sort of perceived

or wrapped this whole alien abduction thing in his life? It's an interesting angle because, yes, he did. He did reject the religion that it was forced upon him. I think like a lot of people or especially creative people may, but he's also a very spiritual person. Like he meditates. He does the Chinese like I Ching, which is sort of like their taro. He does yoga.

He reads a lot of like sort of spiritual practices. He's not new agey. But there's definitely, I think, was a void and maybe to a certain extent in all of us of, of like wanting to believe in something like other than just the flesh. And but Jeffrey Krippel took it one step further in suggesting that the alien, it was really this mythos and in universe of the aliens that that helped fill that void or among other things became his like a new sort of thing for him to believe in or a new religion. for him. Yeah, and Jeffrey Krippel is definitely someone I want to talk about. I've been following his work for years, so we'll definitely get to his thoughts on all this. But in the film, Brad, there is this, I guess, quote unquote, woman that David constantly brings up, and that her name is Crescent. Could you give us a little background on who Crescent may be? Sure. So there was a,

there was a consistent cast of characters that would visit him. The little hair guy, the insect being this tall, skinny guy with a nub on his head and the grays. But the one that was more consistently there and that had the biggest impression on him was this a female. And he calls her a female hybrid because everything about her seemed so human physically, except for the face. And the face had an almost classic gray look, except more feminine. and she had human-like hair.

And at first, when he was younger, their relationship seemed she was almost like a caring guardian-type figure, maybe even motherly. But once he reached sexual maturity, and at 17, that relationship changed into something sexual and romantic. And she took more of a role on as almost like a significant other. but she was one of many of these hybrid females. She was just the one that he interfaced with the most and connected with. And he gave her that name, Crescent. I don't think any of them actually had names as we know them. And the idea that Crescent was, I guess, sort of manipulating David's mind and his body throughout all this.

It's very controversial, and we do hear this a lot in alien abduction lore, but David also stated, and this is one of my favorite lines in the whole film, and kind of gave me chills was they were always invited. And that was really interesting. There seems to be this willingness to let them do whatever they wanted with him, even though he seemed to have, like, you know, pretty much no choice in the matter. Do you think that if he didn't want these events to happen, that he could have somehow stopped it? That's really tough to say because, well, one small detail was that, like, we noticed that,

in the paintings where they're they're having sex, she's always on top of him. So we just asked like, why is that? And he said because I was always, I felt paralyzed. And it was just easier that way. So he wasn't really, didn't seem like he was really able to move when this was happening. And he didn't say it was unpleasant at all, but it's an interesting fact. And whenever, especially when he was younger, whenever he was like upset about what was going on or scared or didn't.

like it, they would be able to placate him. You know, like make pain go away or make the bad feelings go away. So, so it sounds like there was some psychological or telepathic type of influence. And I, but I don't think that that was everything because you still have, I think the majority of abductees don't consider their, their abductions like positive experiences. So even though, even if they were controlled on some level, they still didn't end up liking it. But with David, I think there was coercion, but he still liked it. He still, you know, it was still a positive in his mind. Maybe that's why it kept continuing, too, because he didn't have any resistance.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. And, yeah, I mean, despite the whole idea of it being, you know, pleasurable or wanting to continue, there seemed to be like this overall mission, you know, by these creatures of why they were doing it. And I found it fascinating that David was so sincere in that idea that he was, you know, somehow being used for this almost like hybridization program. We hear this by many women who claim abduction experiences, but not often by the men, you know, they claim, you know, maybe there's some sort of semen extraction, but not, you know, not the act of actually holding or being in contact with a baby that might be like half yours, you know. So what do you make of that whole claim by David that there was some sort of hybridization program that seems to be going on? Just stepping back a little, in an abduction story, just the idea that someone is abducted is alone sort of like a difficult leap, you know, to believe and to sort of suspend belief over. And then adding that you then procreated many times and created many times and created many.

babies with them is a whole other level of belief. So that took a lot of like thinking over for me just to to be able to like accept that. And I think for David too, like when he first talks about learning about that, he was he was, you know, in shock and couldn't believe it. Again, I'll go back to Jeffrey Criple. He says, you know, the idea of hybridity is, it's not so strange in the historical record, you know, just going back thousands of years with with the beliefs of the Greeks and Greek mythology, gods, and, you know, beings from the sky intermingling and breeding with humans was like a normal part of the mythology. So it's not without precedence, but getting into more of the why, at least what David thinks, he never was able to get an answer, is that, you know, they

lost the ability somehow, or maybe never had the ability to procreate like we do. And they need a human in some way man or a woman to make this happen and so it wasn't like the act of sex at all that was what was really necessary it was more getting his his like sperm

and then using that to hybridize and make these children and it was he noticed that as they grew up over time they looked more and more human still not quite 100% human like they still had the odd eyes but he never saw them here

he only saw them when he was there with them, either like on a ship or somewhere else. So I don't know if it wet the whole point of the, if it's a program, if it's for them to come here, or if it's just to keep their own race going. It's difficult to muse on. Yeah, yeah, to be determined, I guess. Well, the paintings, Brad, I want to get back to that for a second, because you were able to use these throughout the film to sort of, you know, propel his story, to elevate it in a way, I guess, which is, in essence, what he's trying to do as well to kind of get it out there without using words so much. Did you always plan, you know, when you decided, yes, I want to tell his

story. Did you know you were going to sort of use those paintings as a technique to tell the story throughout? Yeah, definitely. And without them, I probably wouldn't have made the film. I did experiment very early on with the idea of maybe recreating the experiences that were in the paintings, like the key ones, live action. And like I did a test of that. And I soon realized, like, what's the point? One, it skews the documentary into a place I don't really want it to go in that, you know, it's already such a fantastical story.

And by showing it, I think it pushes it over the top. And two, I already have the paintings and the paintings are sort of incredible in their own right. So why not just use them? as the gift that they are. And it also helps just being on a low budget, having that as a storytelling device as opposed to recreating everything. And I think we see a lot of recreations

and without a lot of resources, they end up looking mostly very cheesy. And that's the last thing I wanted for this film. So instead just was able to, like, shoot the paintings in an interesting way, like very macro with moves. And also we did an interesting technique where I hired this guy

in Eastern Europe to he painted depth maps. He's like one of the only people I think that does this. He paints these gray scale almost like maps of the paintings that show their depth. And then I can plug that into After Effects and put really subtle like camera moves and other effects on them that they're not over the top, but they really add to the immersion and that sort of unsettling feeling of the works. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, that was one of the first things I noticed. I'm like, I'm so happy he didn't just do like a flat aerial view of the paintings. It did. It was just enough, I think, to make it come to life. And I think that was really a really interesting technique. I'm so happy you decided to do that. And again, it helped enhance the story. And one of those paintings, Brad, that really caught my attention was that of an owl.

Now, going back to sort of abduction lore, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Many experiencers claim to have seen owls prior to. or after a contact experience. And we see this throughout movies, throughout the UFO abduction literature. Is this something you've ever explored at all in your research into the abduction phenomenon in making this film, the whole idea of the owl being present? Not specifically the owl, but more like the eyes of the owl. And that was something that David, David, in retrospect, was thinking, like, when he thought he saw that owl in the tree, then started to think that the eyes looked exactly like that of the hairy, the little hairy guy.

Yeah. And that maybe it wasn't an owl and maybe it was that being or maybe the being that he saw, you know, wasn't a little hairy guy, but was an owl. So that, yeah, I hadn't thought too much on it. Just like, it's such a pervasive image as well, like in David Lynch's work, like with Twin Peaks. The owl's always sort of there when something very strange is going to happen. Like it's something that that ushers in these sort of. multi-dimensional experiences. Yeah, it's an interesting, you know, sort of sub-topic that I think

has sort of made its way into the abduction phenomenon or lore, whatever you want to make of it. It is interesting. The whole idea of screen memories, too. Like, maybe this is what they use to, like, give us something relatable. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what to make it either. It's that, I think, I think it's really like eyes that that seems a common denominator of a lot of these experiences, like the lasting impression is of eyes. And it may be that the screen memory is, you know, the closest thing that we can think of of sort of glowing, creepy eyes in the dark is an owl. Yeah. I think you're right on that. It's definitely like the most human connection we can make, I think, for sure. In terms of humans, Brad, the people in David's life, you know,

whether it's just like a neighbor, a coworker, a friend, a lot of them, a majority of them, they do believe him just because, like you said, he's such a genuine person and actually pretty down to earth. Did you find anyone that didn't believe him that you were able to get on film? No, this was the problem. Like, I thought I would. Like, I thought his boss, for example, who's this real salt of the earth, like Italian immigrant who owns a deli, I thought he'd be like, you know, I like David, but this alien abduction stuff is wacky. But instead it was like, no, you know, because I know David and the type of guy he is, I believe him. And I might not have seen or had an experience with aliens, but I have no reason to disbelieve David or to judge him or be cynical about it. And then same with his neighbor who's known him for 30 years and didn't know about the abduction experiences when I told him about it. He was like, well, yeah, you know, again, like it's even less likely that we're completely alone on the universe. Who knows if they're visiting or not? But, But again, I've known David for 30 years, and he's the nicest guy that I've ever met.

So I'm not going to disbelieve him out of hand. And on and on. And same with Jeffrey Kriple, who's this pretty much world-renowned expert in his field of comparative religious studies. And he believes David. And the one person that I'm pretty sure would have been the dissenting voice and would have been the most important one to get would have been his ex-wife, who, whom I think, you know, they got divorced over this whole subject. But she just did not, with all of her heart, did not want to appear on film. And I tried, I asked her, you know, separately 10 times in every different way I could.

And even though she's a super nice lady and, you know, we got along really well. Outside of filming, she just, you know, I could not convince her to get on film. I think she just did not want, it's too painful for her to talk about. And she didn't want to feed into this story anymore than already had. Yeah, I get that, man. I've spoken to many experiencers who, like, you know, their significant other is, you know, supportive and is there for them. But when it comes to actually, like, broadcasting it out to the world, that's a whole other kind of worms that a lot of people don't want to get, you know, involved. Yeah. And also, you know, further on the disbelieving scale, I feel like there's not much of a point.

I mean, this is your average person on the street is going to be the one that's like, dude's crazy. You know, and you can just tell from, like, YouTube comments and other things, that's the general populace. And those are the, you know, a lot of the people watching the film. So the, I think it's the audience that's the skeptic, rightfully so, and in a, in a situation like this. And sure, like, it could have gotten, like, a psychologist or sociologist to talk about how it's linked to trauma or it's linked to personality disorder or seizures. But none of them actually know David or, you know, he's not a patient of there. So that is, I don't think, the most responsible thing either. Right, right. It's just a little too disconnected from the story, I think, for sure.

Well, you were able to get his son on film, which I thought was really interesting, his son, Michael. What were his thoughts on all of this about what his father was bringing forward? Yeah, Michael was a big surprise, too. So, like, I sat him down and I started asking, like, you know, what was your childhood like? And he's like, oh, it was, you know, a normal childhood, nothing out of the ordinary. and like, really, nothing out of the ordinary in your childhood compared to other of your friends? And he had to really think about it. And I was like, what about, you know, the fact that your father was abducted by aliens? He was like, oh, yeah, that.

Yeah, I guess that's a little out of the ordinary. And that was how it sort of went. Like, for him, it was just like this matter of fact part of his life and upbringing. Like his dad made these weird paintings and talked about being abducted, but he never passed judgment. and he just believed him without any sort of, you know, criticism. And he never, I don't think, had an experience as support or evidence, but he just was like, well, I don't have a reason not to believe my dad. And I think David sort of shielded him from the more explicit paintings until he was older.

And like in the film, he said Michael would say, like, dad, who are these people your paintings? He's like, oh, these are just, you know, some people that I know from somewhere far away. And I think that was a pretty good way to lightly introduce his son to it. Yeah, absolutely. I can't even imagine. Like, that just becoming like a normal thing throughout your adolescence is, yeah, my dad's an alien abductee. Yeah, his friends are from France or something. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, you know, we've mentioned him a lot throughout this interview so far, Brad, the man of the hour, Jeffrey Kreifled. Now, this dude is like a superhero to a lot of us, I guess, you know, younger, maybe more progressive UFO researchers because he looks.

at it from a completely different angle. And I think it's one that is essential, necessary, and may give us a good clue on what we might be dealing with. So for those who don't know who Jeffrey is, could you sort of give us a little background on who this guy is and how you were able to get him on camera, which is really rare? Yeah. So he's a professor of comparative religious studies at Rice University in Houston, which is like a very sort of exclusive liberal arts college and its faculty is well known throughout the world. So he's a very well-respected academic. He focuses on paranormal phenomena and people who have experienced paranormal phenomena and tries, instead of dismissing them out of hand as crazy or having a psychological or brain

chemistry disorder, tries to put it in a historical context. And what he found was, you know, doing what academics do by going back into the literature over. thousands of years found that alien abduction experiences, for the most part, not all of them, they share a lot in common with mystical experiences and religious experiences and, you know, psychedelic experiences and that maybe these things are the same thing. So 2,000 years ago, you know, someone in Greece or Mesopotamia having an experience that involved the, you know, the gods or spirits or someone in the 1500s, having, you know, visions of apostles and angels and Jesus, and then someone in our times having

visions of these odd-looking aliens, that these are the same things and that they're real experiences that we don't understand and don't know what they are, but we, just because of how our brains work, we then fill in the holes and fill in the gaps with what we know or what we've seen or what we've heard so that they get colored by popular culture. So what he's saying is it's sort of like the metaphor is like light through stained glass. So we see all these beautiful colors and patterns and symbols of the stained glass, but that there's actually a light shining through it. And that light is the experience.

And what we're seeing is what's being filtered through all manner of things with our brain and the world that we live in. So that's his sort of theory in a nutshell. And he's not saying that aliens don't exist and that aliens aren't necessarily even coming here, but that he believes that that abduction phenomenon isn't this literal story of beings that are actually abducting and experimenting on people. He thinks that it's something sort of much more universal and non-literal than that. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. And I mean, he even, you know, within all of that, he admits that he had almost like a mystical experience

himself. Am I correct in that? Yeah, exactly. And what's interesting, again, is It took the form. It was very much like what you might call an abduction experience, but it took the form of more like Hindu mythology. And he's not, he's not Indian or Hindu. But that was his focus, academic focus at that time. So he wrote a book about sort of the erotic content of Hindu mythology. And it actually got him banned from India and harassed by Indian Secret Service for years later. But so his, his uh content of it if his paranormal experience was had all this sort of like there's you know i think collie was in it or shiva and it had it had uh this sort of imagery but if you swapped in gray's and um alien spaceships it would have been you know exactly your your typical UFO abduction experience yeah it was extremely interesting you know especially since he's he's willing to come forward and talk about this having had his own personal experience somehow with it filling in those gaps, I think that's essential. And, you know, like you said, like sort of what we put

our own lens on what the experience might be. So many people think it might have been a religious experience or this or that. It's very fascinating. We can go down so many different rabbit holes when it comes to these experiencers. Yeah. And it's, it's, in some circles, it's blasphemy to say it's anything other than, you know, very specific sequence of events that happened. You know, that it's a UFO from another world coming and doing these very specific things. And you can't see beyond that. And then there's all of the events as of late that are being revealed with, you know, the military and observing these craft. And that could be like a totally different thing than alien abdacti experiences.

They might not be related to these craft or ships that they're seeing, which is a very, you know, this is a very, like, studied, analytical real thing that's being, like showing up. on like cameras and radar, which is a little bit different than how people, you know, experience alien abductions. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point, too. Well, my favorite, my absolute favorite part of the film, Brad, was when you had a showing of David's work in New York City. And this was the moment I'd sort of been waiting for in the film where we really got an

an outside eye on how his work was perceived and then learning that this dude says he actually experienced these things. So how did this all come about the idea of doing an art showing for David? I love this part of the film. Yeah, well, you know, after we had a cut of the film earlier that didn't have that. And it felt it felt just too almost claustrophobic. Like we needed to get out of his house, get out of his block where he lives in Hoboken, and actually see him interacting with the outside world and, you know, people other than his immediate sphere.

So we thought, you know, perfect would be a gallery showing. But, you know, no one knows him. And he hasn't really shown his work, especially a solo show anywhere. So we had to engineer the whole thing. So, you know, we rented a gallery space. And it came along with, like, a curator who helped us, like, pick the works and put them up on the wall. And then just through word of mouth, you know, like Facebook and other things, we started to spread the word. And it ended up, you know, being, you know, much more successful than we thought.

It was like perfect amount of people. We had a great cross-section, you know, young and old. And it was just so, so fascinating just for us to see David juxtaposed with this old guy from the South, juxtaposed with these, like, young New York, like, hipsters, basically, art hipsters. And just how they, like, totally embraced him instead of, like, judging and snickering and making fun, they were all like, wow, and this is so cool. This is so weird and interesting. And they were almost like in awe of listening.

to him talk and tell his stories like, like, it was almost some, like, sort of like guru type of experience is really, really odd. Yeah, absolutely, man. And, like, the whole time he was sort of, you know, telling his story behind each painting, I was, like, watching the person listening. That's always fascinated me more, like, how they're going to react to it. I love those moments of, like, you know, hearing something, you're clearly not used to hearing. and then being like, oh my God, he actually, like, believes this happened to him.

This isn't some dude, like, just creating a story to make a painting. It's very interesting. Yeah, this, like, jaws dropped. Yeah. Throughout the whole galaxy, the gallery. Right. And then, you know, there was even another, like, I guess, quote, unquote, experiencer there who said, oh, yeah, I've been abducted, but nothing like this.

That was a perfect moment of just, like, normalizing this thing. know, for the experiencers, it's like an everyday occurrence. Yes, it's profound and probably life-altering to them. But like at the same time, it's like they have their own community. And it's like, oh, yeah, I was taken last week. How about you? Blah, blah, blah. Right. It's fascinating. In terms of that, like, in the years of filming this, in getting to know David and, you know, I'm sure doors were opened in your own mind of like what you think of all this. Do you believe David's story? I think it's two questions, really.

It's like, one is do I believe David? And that's a yes, because I don't think he's making anything up at all. He's describing experiences that he experienced. But then the next question is, do I believe aliens or other beings from maybe other dimensions are visiting Earth and taking people and having sex with them and making hybrid children with them. And so that is, I can't say yes, because that's a really big leap, right? From believing David or then believing this sequence of events that happening. But I also, you know, just as fervently will say that I don't disbelieve it because I have also no evidence

that it's not happening as well. And the evidence we do have that it's happening is that a lot of people talk about having these experiences so that something is happening. So I'll say that I believe David and I believe that something really odd has been happening for a long time that we don't understand and may not be as as straightforward as these are people from another place coming down and experimenting on us. You know, maybe it's maybe it's some interdimensional thing that like Jacques Valet and others have talked about. Maybe that's more believable or not. I don't know. But I just can't I can't like call myself a believer just because, you know, I don't have the answers to give myself over to that.

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I watched it a second time with my girlfriend. And at the end, she said, do you believe him? And, you know, my answer with your film and with any person I've ever interviewed about this topic is, you know, I wasn't there. That's kind of where I leave it. I was not there. I cannot say no matter how much evidence or lack of evidence there is.

I was not there in the room when that happened. So, yeah. Well, how is the overall response been, Brad, since the film came out? What do viewers think about it? I know it's screened in many different cities. It's on every streaming service you can possibly think of, which is awesome. Like, what do you gather about what people are saying about the film? It's been great.

So far overall, it's been really great. And it's so neat, like being a filmmaker and being able to attend film festival screenings, like around the country because each city has its own culture and and vibe. And so each audience would react completely differently. Like in Austin, Texas at a genre film festival, like people are so into it. And, you know, they love the paintings and the parts about VHS and they're having like a great time. And then in a place like Utah, it's like, you know, like they still like it. But it's, they're really weirded out and creeped out.

like, oh my gosh, especially the sexual content. And then in a place like Miami, they're more sort of like laughing at David, like, oh, look at this. It's a little bit of like a freak show. So everywhere was totally different. But what was universal is that people would come up afterwards and say, you know, I came into this thinking I would watch like a film about like a wacky, crazy guy. And that, you know, that would be it.

But by the end, I don't know anymore. And I actually, against all my like better judgment, I want to believe. this guy because he he's a believable guy and there's you know there's there's there's little evidence to think that he would make any of this up so that and that's what all i hope for all i hope was that people would suspend their judgment and start to think that you know there's something that can be gained from not dismissing these stories out of hand and maybe it's as simple as like learning more about us about humans and how we work and and on the far end it you know maybe they're our people or beings that are visiting us from afar.

And we even had people that admitted that they'd seen UFOs or had experiences during the Q&A. So, like, in front of, like, hundreds of people, they're getting up and saying this, that the film made them feel comfortable that they could talk about it. And then since it's been released, it's been getting pretty, like, overall pretty good reviews. You know, I'd say, like, 80% positive, which is really good for, like, the online trial by fire. Yeah, exactly. So it's been doing well and it's going to go, it's going to be on Hulu soon, like late in March, which is going to be really big to get like lots of eyeballs on it. Similar how Jeremy's film, Patient 17 is on Netflix now.

Like it just being on one of those big subscription services, like basically like opens, opens up your market by millions. So I think that'll be the real interesting task. Because right now I'd say like, you know, thousands have seen it, but soon it will be much, much more. than that. Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay.

Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at storesotails.com. Yeah, man. And what's exciting about that, too, is like that just you're giving a voice to like a really sort of niche community that that is afraid to talk about it outside of like their friends or their support groups because like no one's going to believe them but now that it's out there to literally to the world to both judge or accept like that's exciting and that's kind of the risk you take when you come forward with these things so i think it's great that you've given

david that platform and now it's up to the public you know to come out with our own conclusions but um do you know like offhand has david even seen the film or like what he thinks of this whole process of working with you Yeah, so it actually took a long time for David to see it once it was finished because, you know, his preferred viewing format is VHS. Right. And it's more difficult than you think these days to get something dubbed onto VHS. So it took, you know, eventually I gave up and sent him a DVD. But even before that, when the film was finished, he, he called me to say, you know, Brad, I had like a message from from the beings that,

about the documentary. And I was like, oh, God. What, you know, what did they say? Erased them all. And he actually said that they, yeah, they approve of it and that they support it. And even though it's sort of like a ridiculous statement, like that the extraterrestrials approve of the film, it actually made me feel really good because if they are real, the last thing I want is to be pissing them off. So then shortly after that, I send him a DVD and he was able to watch that. And he, again, I was, I was worried.

I didn't know what, you know, it's his life. It's very personal, you know, but he called me back and said, Brad, I just want you to know, like, I really like the film. I think it's really well done. And that was it just like how, that's how, you know, simply spoken he is. That was his review. He really liked it and thought it was very good. So, so I'm glad. I'm glad about that. It's been very different for him. I think, thankfully, he doesn't have the internet. So he can't go on to, like, you know, Twitter or YouTube and read all these, like, very childish comments that you see. Yeah. So he's sheltered from this. So he's sheltered from the internet. So he's sheltered from. that, which is really helpful. But now he's getting calls for radio shows. He was on Britain's biggest morning show, you know, viewed by millions every morning. They had him come into the studio in New York to be patched in. And yeah, that's, you know, that's totally new experience for this, you know, mid-70s guy who never had any sort of fame before. So I think he's actually enjoying it. Yeah, I mean, The dude is in his 70s. Like, let him ride that wave for sure.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. And to know that the film has been approved, the first UFO slash alien abduction documentary to be approved by the beings abducting the man. That's pretty, pretty bragging rights right there, man, for sure. Well, I know you're working on another film that's, you know, kind of relates to this, kind of doesn't. Who knows where we're trying to make those connections right now in our two different camps

have thought, but you're working on a film about cryptozoology, which is another big interest of mine. Can you tell us a little bit about that project before we wrap things up here? Yeah, I think it's a very different film. Like, it's about a big field. But what's similar about it is, again, it's something it's done in a very non-judgmental way and taking it seriously. So instead of the typical discovery channel or like reality TV, hunt for monster, sensationalize, piece. It's actually taking the field as just for under serious consideration. Like Cryptozoology is actually something that that's important. So we're interviewing all of the most credible in the field like Lauren Coleman, Linda Godfrey, Lyle Blackburn, Scott Martis. We're

staying away from from anyone on the fringes. And still, I mean, it's still going to be fun and quirky. Like you can't get around that with Cryptozoology. I mean, all these people were interviewing are all characters in their own right and and um the beasts themselves are kind of funny and weird but it's it's not about finding creatures we're you know we're still going out in the field but we're not going on expeditions hunting for something because that's when i think you get into into trouble but instead it's it's like the legitimacy and history of it basically and and considering it like an actual field of study so that that's cryptozoologist and we're we're in the fundraising phase right now but have have shot about probably like 15% of the film so far.

Well, that's good to hear, man. It's invigorating to know that, like, there are filmmakers out there who want to lend credibility to these topics. And that's what we strive to do constantly is, you know, give these things a place in, you know, the mainstream to be like, look, something weird is going on. No, we don't know what it is, but we're trying to figure it out. So I think that's really cool. I'm really looking forward to that film.

Lauren Coleman is, again, like a hero to a lot of us out there. So awesome. Yeah. Yeah, and if anyone is interested in more like sort of serious or like almost scholarly cryptozoology films, there's the Seth Breedlove, you know, small town monsters. Have you heard of him? Absolutely, yeah, I had him on the show a couple, yeah, months ago. Oh, cool.

Yeah, so he, yeah, he, you know, breaks down basically like individual crypted stories. And that's also refreshing that he doesn't do it in a, in that reality TV style way. Yeah, and really shines a light on these small towns and like the lore behind what has happened there. Yeah, love it. I can't wait to see a hybrid film between the two of you at some later date. Well, the paintings. Before we go, Brad, these things are so incredible. And I know we can't get our hands on the originals, but they are available in some form, right? I believe I saw this on your website. Where can we get those? Yeah, so we made prints available because it's hard to actually buy an original. You have to be in New York City or Hoboken and pick it up directly from David. And if you want to do that, get in touch with me and I'll try and work that out. But because a lot of people aren't in that position, we decided to sell limited edition, like very high quality prints of six of our most favorite of his paintings. And if you just go to leaven saucers.com, you'll see a shop link up there or store link. And you can pick from those paintings.

That's awesome. And again, the DVD of the documentary is available at your website as well. And it's available on countless streaming devices. And you said, Hulu coming up. That's awesome, man. I can't wait for that. Well, Brett, this film, it's, I can imagine it would be polarizing for those who simply have no room in their lives to believe something like this. And I can't really fault people for that. But the way you weave in and out of David's life and like his genuine nature. it makes it something truly to ponder. And like, no matter what did or didn't happen, I think you treated David with compassion, with, you know, objectivity and with this lens that allowed us to peek in on this guy's life. And it was very grounded, you know, with a story that could be truly out there. And I'm just so happy you did this, man. So again, I have to. Of course, of course.

I got to thank you for coming on the show to talk about all this. We only scratch the surface. I can't wait for listeners to see the film. So again, thank you for coming on today. You're welcome. It was a blast. Thank you so much. All right, that is it for this week's episode. Again, you can find Love and Saucers on DVD or on many different streaming services. Head on over to love and saucers.com to learn more.

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