Somewhere in the Skies - Medieval UFOs: Mythologizing Aerial Phenomena

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

On episode 161 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, the Time Lord himself, Micah Hanks, returns to guide us through time and space back to the age of antiquity to speculate what UFOs looked like, or how they were perceived throughout the ages. Tracing aerial phenomena in ancient times, the middle ages, up through the modern era and today, we hear the incredible ways that Hanks and other UFO researchers are using modern-day technology to investigate aerial phenomena of centuries past. From cosmic anchors being dropped by celestial airships to luminous crosses, shields, and yes... even saucers being recorded throughout time in our skies. Are these truly visitors from beyond or a gradual myth in the making? Visit Micah Hanks at: www.MicahHanks.com Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms apply. Something strange is happening on May 30th. Rogue Planet presents All the Strange 2020. A virtual online expo highlighting and celebrating UFOs, extraterrestrial life, ghosts, Bigfoot, you know, All the Strange. Join us on May 30th as we showcase a series of fun presentations delivered by a lineup of awesome humans who are fascinated by The Strange. And get this, All The Strange 2020 is a 100% free event. So jump over to All The Strange.com and register now. Today on the show, we've got Micah Hanks, and we're going back, way, way back, to discuss medieval UFOs, solving millennia-old aerial phenomena cases.

And then we ask the most important question. What exactly is for teen hip-hop? Strange light shot from cloud like blood dropping from Eye of Dragon, wind blue, blood rain, blood rain, blood rain. This is somewhere in the skies. with Ryan Sprague. Tonight is going to be really special. This is a somewhere in the skies that we're actually calling somewhere in the medieval skies. Now, we won't only be talking medieval.

We're going to be talking a bunch of other things with my very special guest tonight. And that is the one and only Micah Hanks. How you doing, buddy? Brother, it is so good to be here. Hopefully you guys can hear me. And then I'm coming through loud and clear in this patch, this social distance dispatch. match. So strange times, huh? I mean, stranger even than usual for guys like you and me. That is a very good point. We are living in probably a scenario not many of us ever really

pictured unless it was in the movies. But you know what? Epidemiologists have been saying for years we were long overdue for something like this. Now, that does not mean anything good. But at the same time, it means, you know what? It was bound to happen. Unfortunately, it was now. and that's how these things come when we least expect it. So we're making do. We're trying to stay positive and do stuff like this, just to distract ourselves for a few hours a day, you know? That has been, and again, thank you for inviting me to join you here tonight, Ryan,

because this is, I think, so very important right now. I've said on my own shows several times over the last few weeks that just because we have to maintain distance, that doesn't mean we have to fall out of touch. And the benefit really has been. I'm going to be redundant to people who listen to our shows and things because I have said this many times and I'll continue to. The one benefit, because like you, I try to see the positive side of all this sort of stuff, has truly been that it has afforded us some unique opportunities to get in touch like the last we did with Shannon and Lyle and our friends the other night, Rob, everybody, Derek. So it's always great to be able to get together and share discussions. I have been able to increase my reach and even get to know some people who I've been in touch with already better as a result of the lockdowns,

including you speak of epidemiologists. And, you know, I've gotten to know Dr. Thomas Glass PhD very well. He's a retired epidemiologist who's interested in, guess what, UFOs. So it's been a very unique experience. And again, I try to see the positive side of it, ma'am. Yeah, I think we're learning a lot about ourselves right now, about humanity, about our governments, just everything. You know, I think there's no going back from this. We're going to come out of this in a whole new world.

We're going to pick up the pieces, build it again. And I think that's kind of what the UFO topic represents to a lot of us, too. We build off of what we've learned and we try to look at it in a whole new light. And that could not be more true than what we're going to sort of be talking about today. We're going pre-Eufology tonight. So this is going to be fun. This is something I'm going to admit, man, I've never looked into. So you are going to be the conductor of this train tonight for sure.

But I will definitely chime in. I know our viewers on YouTube and Facebook will as well. I will try to get to as many questions or comments as they can. But before we even get to that, I do want to warn everyone, you may at 7 p.m. Yeah, 7 p.m. E.S.T. You might hear a lot of cheering and clanking of pots and shouting, at least here in New York City, every night at 7 p.m.

New Yorkers have been sending their cheers and thanks in the most, the best way they know how. And that's the yell, scream, and make a lot of noise for our first responders, our frontline workers. And I do live near a hospital. So if tonight at 7 p.m., you hear a lot of ruckus outside, I just know it's for a good reason and that I'm sending all my thanks and gratitude to everyone out there working right now and keeping us safe. We'll join right in. We will.

We will. Once I hear it, you'll know, trust me. New Yorkers, they make themselves known when they want to. But before we get to that as well, my man, what do you drink in? I did ask you to bring something to the table tonight. That is true. And if you know me, you know I get a grin again and again. Here I have.

Yes, straight from St. James Gate, Dublin, if I can speak here. I have my Guinness in my goblet that was given to me by my archaeological cohort, Jason Pintrail, who might be listening at home. I don't know. I know he just called me. So if you are out there listening, Jason, that's why I missed your call. And brother, I'll call you back later. Wow. My goodness in the glass that he gave me.

And, yes, and I believe you have a ceremonial beverage of some. Yeah. So I'm going local tonight. I've got original sin black widow cider. It's delicious, man. It's got a black raspberry taste to it. Very light, very refreshing. Hey, I wish I could be having a Guinness right now.

That's silky, smooth, dark. The only thing better than having a Guinness would be if we could have a Guinness together, Ryan. And, you know, I think so fondly of when you and I and our friends up in Canada, of course, Paul Kimball and Holly Stevens, and then folks from here stateside, Greg Bishop and Walter Bosley, a bunch of us were up there together. Tim Bonal, you know, just having a fantastic time with, by the way, the late great Stanton Friedman. He made an appearance that weekend. So the last time you and I actually got to imbibe together, it was in the presence of greatness, quite literally. And do you remember Stanton gave his first speech for the last time that night?

That's right. the first lecture he ever gave in front of a public audience he gave to the people of Nova Scotia, which was, I mean, it blows my mind that we were able to see that and experience that. And, you know, unfortunately, not long after is when we lost him. So to have that opportunity and to hear what started him on this path, it's just, it's a memory I will hold dearly, I think. It's probably to my own dying days. Yeah.

Oh, by the way, let's see, Bacon, Cheta Bam there in the chat has said, I'm more of a Modelo Negra guy. Well, I too. Let me tell you. I enjoy the Modelo Negro. That's also, I think it's just dark beer. If I'm going to drink a beer, it's going to be a dark beer. Yeah.

And yeah, that's definitely a good one as well. You know, on the subject of Stanton, that's maybe kind of an interesting place to begin because the beginning here at the end. There's Stanton giving his first lecture on UFOs close to the end of his life. even though no one, you know, saw, per se that Stanton was that close to, you know, the great trip, the great euphological trip into the ever after. We sensed it. I think you would agree, Ryan. We sensed it.

He had announced his retirement. And, you know, he was beginning to, you know, slow down the pace was, was, wasn't as quick as it had once been. And yet the incredible thing was the knowledge. He could still give those lectures and he could still, you know, get up there and. speak, even if slower, I mean, as well, I think, as he ever did. You know, I think Stanton really kind of brought to public attention at a time when the UFO phenomenon was a very nebulous kind of a thing. What is this?

Are we looking at Russia? Are we looking at, you know, another world power? Who else could it be, if not Russia? But, I mean, is this secret U.S. technology? The Air Force is investigating it. That much we know. Okay, great. In that era, again, the UFO investigators were largely, I mean, you had Donald Kehoe, you had Edwards, of course, behind the flying saucers, you had many riders, Gray Barker, people like that.

But Stanton becomes this, the first guy as a civilian researcher, but as a scientist and a nuclear physicist at that who starts doing the lectures, the lecture circuits at the colleges. And he starts bringing to broader public awareness, you know, guys, euphology is. is something that seems to be far different from weather balloons and, you know, secret planes and things. And the Blue Book Boys and what they're studying. And again, I think we can kind of credit Stanton for bringing into the modern dialogue, you know, the UFO phenomenon. As we know it today, I think he was instrumental in shifting and shaping the way that the public perceives that. And even though he was a scientist, of course, becoming a historical archivist, spending a lot of times at the national. National Archives looking for a paper trail that gives us an idea of not only if there is a phenomenon, if there's a reality behind it, but what role government has played in that and whether or not certain information has been withheld from the public. So again, really, I can't think of another researcher who in their lifetime did quite as much as Stanton Friedman did in that regard. And what I take away from all that is the way that the very meticulous at times has to be, but the chronicling of the history of the phenomenon is essential to understanding it

and being able to see the big picture, so to speak. So I have to thank Stanton, you know, here at the outset of this conversation we're having, for really laying a lot of that groundwork and kind of driving home from me how important history is in relation to the study of this, topic. Absolutely. And I mean, if anything we take from what Stanton taught us, and we can either look forward or look backward. And what I am finding most unique about this research that you're doing currently within the UFO field is going back as far as recorded history, basically, which is amazing. And it kind of came to light to me with a recent inciting this past February of a, I guess we could call it a symbol or a, if you want to get

religious a crucifix of such seen in the sky. And this actually propels us much further back. So could you tell us a little about how this current event kind of influenced your research in now moving backwards when it comes to not just UFOs, but aerial phenomena in general? Right. I'm glad you said that right there, aerial phenomena in general. is important to understand. I think that there are a lot of misconceptions about this. Now, it's almost difficult to phrase it. I'm going to do my best here. When we talk about UFOs, generally we have an idea of, you know, what we mean. We mean a spaceship, a flying saucer, or something along those lines. The thing about UFOs that is so perplexing and so difficult

to reconcile with is the fact that a leading theory has been since the dawn of the, the, modern UFO era, which, again, I don't think anyone would dispute that this begins in the summer of 1947, you know, with Kenneth Arnold, also with the famous Roswell incident. You know, even if you prescribed to the idea that that was just, you know, a mogul operation that at the time the Air Force couldn't come clean with and they had to say weather balloon, and then we find out many years later, of course, having read the government documents on this Roswell case closed and, you know, seen both the approach by the hopeful uphologist to once hopeful uphologists, guys like Kevin Randall, who then years later they kind of have to say, you know,

after studying Roswell for so long, I don't see as much there in note, of course, right behind me here. Yep. Got my copies of the Roswell Daily Record. If I had to guess, I mean, I'm not really so much in the, of course, actually, you know, you being one who has done a lot of work with Roswell in modern times with your television program. But, you know, I kind of treat the Roswell subject as, you know, one of these, one of these landmark cases, but one that, you know, it's probably not going to be the smoking gun that we

once hoped it would be, because after all of this exhaustive research, whether or not there's a phenomenon represented by it, we are left with the reality that it has not convinced, you know, many of the doubters, and it hasn't offered us that, you know, the final reality, right? it's an interesting case in that regard, especially historically speaking. But when we go further back, again, you know, we look at Roswell and we look at the evolution of, you know, disc landed, you know, on Roswell Ranch the next day. Actually, it was a weather balloon. Years later, the government, you know, changes the story again. We're looking at a, you know, a project that for national security reasons couldn't be talked about at that time.

When we go further back, what's interesting about what I call pre-euphology, pre-eufology, Pre-1947 is, first of all, we don't have terms like flying sauce or disc or the later UFO, which, as you had pointed out, they interviewed you on camera, of course, for Seth Bredlove and Shannon Legrow's fantastic on the trail of UFOs. And you had said, you know, again, that term UFO comes from the government. That comes from Edward Ruppolt, you know, who's trying to institute a more ambiguous term for the wide array of things that are being seen. And going back further in time, what has to be remembered about the study of UFOs, especially from antiquity up until the modern period, is that people have, again, since time immemorial, it has been part of the human experience to see things in the sky and to project onto them human attitudes and to search for and assign agency to them. that all occurred prior to modern euphology. And I suspect strongly, this is going to be a theme, we'll continue to touch on throughout the night. I suspect strongly that in modern times, people still do the same things. And that essentially when people see things in the sky that they cannot explain, whatever that may be, celestial phenomenon, an aircraft at a distance, you know, an experimental technology, an actual flying saucer, a spaceship from, you know, who knows where, is 82 reticuline? I strongly suspect that when people see something in the sky, they cannot explain.

We still go through this reckoning process of trying to interpret it. What have I seen? What could that be? Did it appear to interact with me? Did it try to communicate? And, you know, how did this reshape my thoughts about existence? You know, these are all very, you know, existential questions. And so a lot of the modern nuts and bolts UFO researchers kind of look at this and they're like,

this is not euphology. What are we talking about here? This is like psychology. And on my program this week, the Micah Hank's program, I was joined by an interesting guest, Ryan, who you might want to talk with at some point, too, really interesting guy. Retired Professor David Halprin,

and he is the author of a new book called Intimate Alien, The Hidden Story of the UFO. Halperin's contention is he actually doesn't believe in the UFO phenomena as a physical, tangible phenomena. He calls it a modern myth, but he says that being a myth, makes it no less real. Now, let's be clear. I differ from dear Dr. Halpern on that point. I do think that there is a very good case to be made and that there is enough evidence in support of the idea that

physical, tangible objects do represent many UFO sightings, and that's maybe the biggest takeaway from the big post-2017 New York Times, at-tip, UFO culture bomb that occurred. You know, in addition to, you know, with Lou Elizondo, who I've only had limited interactions with, but he's a wonderful guy, and also seeing the way that there's been this sort of, again, to borrow Halperin's term, a renaissance, similar to a renaissance. You know, UFOs are big again. They're popular. This is something that many people are interested in. Well, that's really culturally significant, but for, I think, us in the UFO community, we see these three pieces of video footage, utilizing the Raytheon's targeting pod, the ATF.

clear. And we appear to have something on camera, vague and fuzzy though that is, that is behaving unlike any technology we know, and yet which appears to represent a technology. So again, I'm in that, yes, I think UFOs are a real tangible phenomena in many instances. I don't know. And this is going to sound really weird too, Ryan, as we're about to dive into the antiquity stuff. I don't know if people saw flying saucers in ancient times. But the point I want to try and drive home, as we're talking about this is that I think that to understand UFOs, you have to understand the levels of interpretation that humans apply to them, and that is not something that is modern. That is not a modern phenomena. People seeing things they can identify

and then interpreting and projecting onto it. And as we're going to see, people did that in the ancient past. Now, okay, you touched on something. You'd mentioned this cross from February 2020. I'll give you a quick recap here. This was reported by the Star Online

just in February, a mysterious cross has been captured, appearing above the Holy Land in Israel in what some have called a sign from the heavens. The image by an uploader known only as the rabbi, other appropriate name, and sent into YouTube conspiracy theorist Mr. BB333, shows what seems like a dark cross in the clouds with the number seven next to it.

Now, in the video, what you're seeing are clouds. All right, they're clouds. It's not a cross-shaped object. it is not an actual crawl suspended in the sky. It is purely clouds. And I think most of us have been outside, you know, laying on a blanket looking up at the sky on a, you know, a pretty day and you see things in the clouds. What do you see? I see a rabbit.

What do you see? I see a puppy dog, you know, peri. Yeah. What was that called again, Micah? Paradilia. There we go. Just that is just the faculty of the mind to essentially assign significance to or to see images in random. constructs where no actual image exists.

Well, how appropriate, of course, over the Holy Land. People look up and they see a cross. Now, granted, there was a cross-shaped, undeniably cross-shaped cloud. But is that a cross? Is that a symbol? Is it a sign? Or is it just a cloud?

Now, this is really interesting to me, especially in the context of looking at UFOs in antiquity, because throughout ancient times, you will find report after report of clouds or crosses or stars or other objects that resemble a cross hovering in the sky or sometimes just a curious apparition that is like an luminous cross hovering over a city like Constantinople. Throughout time, there have been so many instances where a religious symbol appears in the sky hovering over a battlefield or a cultural site or a city during a siege like Constantinople.

and I have to reference the incredible work, and this is a book I'm sure that you're probably familiar with as well as many of our listeners, wonders in the sky that Jacques Valet and Chris Albeck co-authored a few years ago. That book, you know, some have criticized it because some feel that, well, a lot of these obviously religious, you know, symbols and signs and things, these are not UFOs. Why are these in this book? Others have said, you know, if these guys are trying to prove that aliens were here in a long, you know, long time ago, they're doing a very poor job, you know. And yet I would say to people, I noticed you put up on social media earlier, somebody asked what kinds of things should I read in preparation for this and you put a copy of Valet's passport to Magonia. Anyone who is familiar with Valet's reinterpretation of the state of euphology with that book will know that he at that point was becoming kind of dissatisfied with the extraterrestrial approach. to studying UFOs. And although he does not come out and say it is something else and here is what it is, he never offers explicitly another interpretation. But what he does say in that book is essentially,

does anybody else seeing the curious similarity between fairy folklore and the traditions associated with the Faye going back throughout history and many of the modern UFO contact experiences? Is that to say that they are one end the same? maybe not, but one cannot deny the similarities. And that's what Valet was trying to point out. Here again, one interpretation of that may be that whatever stimuli is actually there or not, the human interpretation of the phenomena causes us to assign an agency to it.

And I think that that's true whether or not we are looking at a cloud that's shaped like a cross or we're looking at an actual flying saucer and we don't know where it's from or who's in that craft. But we have ideas. it must be this or that. So Valais, I think, and Albeck, what they're trying to do is they're trying to point out, look, the similar, you know, nature of that human experience of seeing something wholly miraculous or unexplained and the significance that we assigned to it, that is not something that began with UFO research. It's something that has been with us since ancient times, and the UFO phenomenon, whatever it represents, is a modern manifestation of that. And man, I tell you, again, I think a lot of people who read the book, they're like, oh, wow, look, you know, UFOs have been flying around since, you know, before, you know, Christ. Well, that's one interpretation. I think, though, that Valet is trying to inspire people to look a little deeper and say, you know, again, there's something here about the human experience. So now, coming back to this cross, again, this occurred in 2020, man. This isn't 850 BC, but I make a comparison between this case and actually a similar one that occurred. on May 7th in the year 351 AD.

I'm going, I'm going way back, and we might as well take it all the way back. Now, and take that TARDIS, man. Let's jump in the Tartis, ladies. Now, this is, I believe this example was touched on Bivalet and Albeck in their book, but they cite a different version of the source. But the report nonetheless comes from Salminius Hermius Zosuminas in his ecclesiastical history. Now, again, we're going to a religious text. and an account of something that occurred on May 7th in the year 351 looking for UFOs.

This is going to be a wild ride. What occurred was the appearance of a cross in the sky. It wasn't just on that date, in fact. It stayed in the sky for, you know, many nights, and they say remained in the sky and people were able to see it. But the account that Zossumannis gives us is at the time, and I quote, that Cyril administered the Church of Jerusalem after Maximus, the sign of the cross appeared in the heavens. It shone brilliantly not with divergent rays like a comet, but with the concentration of a great deal of light, apparently dense and yet transparent.

Now, again, he is apparently not a firsthand observer. He actually collects this from other observers. Note, we have a guy who is giving a history of an account of something strange seen in the sky, and he's collecting eyewitness accounts from people, very similar to the way that modern euphology is conducted. Isn't that interesting? The account continues. He goes on to say its length was about 15 stadia, and that's significant. We'll come back to that in a moment. Its length was about 15 stadia from Calvary to the Mount of Olives, and its breadth was in proportion to its length.

So extraordinary a phenomenon, excited universal terror. Men, women, and children left their houses, the marketplace or their respective employments, and ran to the church where they sang hymns to Christ together and voluntarily confessed their belief in God. The intelligence disturbed in no little measure our entire daughter. dominions, and this happened rapidly, for, as the custom was, there were travelers from every part of the world, so to speak, who were dwelling at Jerusalem for prayer or to visit its places of interest. These were spectators of the sign and divulged the facts to their friends at home. So, again, there are some interesting clues that Zossumannis gives us in this account, including, for instance, he tells us that the emperor was made acquainted with the occurrence,

partly by numerous reports concerning it, which were then current, and partly by a letter from Cyril, the bishop. It was said that this prodigy, and that's an important term, we're going to come back to that in moment also, that this prodigy was a fulfillment of an ancient prophecy contained in the Holy Scriptures. It was the means of the conversion of many pagans and Jews to Christianity. Now, we cannot be 100% certain what this object was, but what is kind of novel is the way that people use landmarks to or where this thing appeared in the sky. And we have the date. And with modern star tracking technologies, astronomical programmings,

or programs rather, like Starry Night Pro, for instance, that's a great one, although it's a little costly, but you can, anybody can purchase it. There's also a, I think there's a free version of it, and then there's also like a student version. But with programs like this, what we can do is we can plug in the date, give the location, we can actually see if there would be a bright celestial object that would have appeared at that time. Then there's also, I think, Gary Kronk, I believe, is the author of the

Cometology series where he has gone through history and he is noted where, you know, famous instances of the appearances of comets occur as well. There's actually a lot we can do. Many would say, well, we'll never know what that was. For the contrary, there are a lot of things that can be done to help us understand what exactly we might have been seeing. But I want to kind of go into this because this is, again, this very well may have been a object, who knows what it was.

But to say that we'll never know, that's where I think the historical UFO researcher kind of goes, well, maybe not. Let's look at some of the clues. This is where it gets fun. Let's see what we can actually discern about this, all right? Now, we can see that the object appears to have been only a nighttime occurrence. That much seems pretty evident. Zaljuman compares it to other known celestial phenomena from that time, primarily that

we're only visible at night. For instance, he notes, and I quote him here, it shown brilliantly not with divergent rays like a comet, so he compares it to a comet, with the concentration of a great deal of light apparently dense and yet transparent. I mean, that's a great description that he gives us. But I was really interested by the fact that he

noted that the length of the cross was about 15 stadia from Calvary to the Mount of Olives, and its breadth was in proportion to its length. Now, from this description, of course, this gives us a pretty good idea of how much space in the sky, the so-called arms of the cross,

actually occupied. And, and And, you know, the idea of the one of the problems, I guess, that we have here is he mentions the Mount of Olives. We're pretty sure where that is. Calvary, of course, there's, if we're referring to the Bible and, you know, religious texts, you know, there is some dispute about where Calvary would have been, i.e. Golgatha, essentially, the location of Christ's crucifixion. But what's really interesting is, historically speaking, we know exactly what he was talking about. And the reason why Ryan is because Helena, Helena, the mother of Constantine the Great, had actually just 26 years prior. to when this occurred. She had designated the site known as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as the location of the crucifixion. It's still there today. Okay, so we know the actual monument that Zossuman was referring to when he describes Calvary. So I went on with little maps. And I'm like,

okay, cool. We know exactly between this location and that location, how much of the sky was occupied by this, that's a fair amount, but we also have to take into consideration, where would one have been standing when they're observing? I would presume probably that they would have been in, you know, town center, okay, which I think I've got it plotted out to being from Jerusalem town center. It's about 1.1.17 miles due northeast as the crow flies to the church of the Holy Sepulchre or Calvary. So I'm able to guesstimate that he's probably over there from, you know, somewhere in the main town center from Jerusalem looking east, he would have to be to be able to observe these two locations. So now we know what region of the sky it's occupying too because he's looking east. Some additional details I've gotten my notes here. Further distant to the east and slightly south beyond is the Mount of Olives at a distance of 1.98 miles from Jerusalem proper,

according to Google Maps. From the perspective of an observer, again in Jerusalem looking east, that distance across the horizon between the two locations we're talking about would appear to be roughly 557 meters or 1,827 feet. So, whatever this object in the sky is that they were seeing at night was occupying quite a large region of the sky. That brings us to the question of what it was.

Actually, I don't want to touch on stadia because that's the measurement that he's using when he talks about this. The plural form of the Greek stadion, of course. Now, scholars disagree about what that length actually would have been. and some measurements range from 157 to 209 meters. But what's really interesting, what I found is that we know the exact distance between the Calvary he referenced and the Mount Olives. If we multiply the higher estimate of around 209 meters, okay, we multiply that by 15, which would have been the number of stadia that he actually gave us in the account he wrote. We get 3.14 kilometers or 10,290 feet.

and that's very close to the modern distance between those two locations. So what that tells us is not only do we have a good idea of what the stadium meant, but Zoshman gave a very good estimate of that length, that distance between the areas. Yeah. So I know I'm geeking out here a little bit, but the point I'm trying to make is that there's a lot of information that can be gleaned from historical texts and sources and documented sightings of things like this. The problem is, again, at this point, I'm not certain what exactly the object would have been, Although if I had to guess, I would probably say that there was a bright star or some similar celestial phenomena that was producing what are called refraction spikes.

Now, often you'll read that refraction spikes are something. If you're looking through a telescope, you're certainly going to see a star producing those. You see them in photographs, too, because a lens is involved. But the naked eye, you're not going to see that with the naked eye under the right circumstances you can. And so the question that remains unanswered in what's going to be a little more difficult to get access to, to Starry Night Pro is probably not going to give us this, is what the atmospheric conditions were around Jerusalem at the time that this siding occurred.

If only we had an account, and there may be a historical account that would give us some information about that, that might help us clear up what exactly conditions would have been conducive to refraction spikes occurring. But since they describe, again, a cross shape, and one of which occupies this distance relative to objects on the ground, again, my best guess would be a bright star. And again, somebody out there who might have the pro version of Starry Night Pro, if you're hearing this, I'd love to talk because I bet we could figure this one out.

Now, maybe not all historical UFO accounts can be solved in this way. And I'm by no means the only researcher who's doing this. In fact, there's some who do it far better and who've been doing it for much longer. Chris Aldbeck, who we already mentioned is certainly one of them. But I'm very interested because, again, did they say a flying saucer? No. They saw a cross in the sky. And here again, I'm very interested in the idea that if some of these objects in these accounts from antiquity are identifiable, utilizing modern astronomical software and other technologies, then we go back and we read what kinds of accounts they give and what interpretation was given in those days.

And here again, I think that the fundamental premise I offered at the beginning that people will see things, which we may understand very well today, but which in that time, in that context, they did not, we are able to see. exactly what I'm describing. They project onto it, meaning, a holy vision, you know, something of religious significance. And we have to take that into consideration as modern UFO researchers. Sometimes people see things, but in this technological age, the space age, we've gone to the moon, we've sent probes out beyond our solar system. It's only natural that we will also interpret unusual aerial phenomena today through that technological lens. Now, some of these things, like I've mentioned, I think do represent a technology. But the skeptic in me also has to say, we've got to be very careful.

And the more that we can rule out, the better prepared we are to understand the broader phenomenon. The fact that we alone can even begin to guess size, distance, possibly even atmospheric conditions, that's astounding that we're able to do that and that people like you and Chris are looking into these things. Now, here's something I want to bring to you on. the skeptic side of Micah Hanks. And again, this is just a story. So we have to take that for what it's worth. But I was doing a little digging before we got on here. And I found this really interesting story from 1211 AD. And it was brought to us by an English chronicler of historical events. And I just want to read this to you quick, if you don't mind, Micah. Please.

Okay. Quote, there happened in the borough of Cleora one Sunday while the people were at Mass of Marvel. In this town is a church dedicated to St. Kineris. It befell that an anchor was dropped from the sky with a rope attached to it and one of the flukes caught in the arch above the church door. The people rushed out of the church and saw in the sky a ship with men on board, floating before the anchor cable and they saw men leap overboard and jump down to the anchor as if to release it. He looked at it as if he were swimming in water, for it might kill him. Excuse me. He looked at it as if he were swimming in water. The folk rushed up and tried to seize him, but the bishop forbade the people to hold the man, for it might kill him. The man was freed and hurried up into the ship where the crew cut the rope and the ship sailed out of sight. But the anchor is in the church and has been there ever since as a testimony. Now, first of all, I want to find that anchor. But second of all, we have lights in the sky.

We have paradolia. We have interpretation of someone maybe from a religious standpoint. But when it comes to something like this, where we have a physical craft or vessel in the sky and some sort of being coming out of it, where does this lay in terms of interpretation? I mean, this is such a literal thing. But again, it is just a story. So, yeah, what would you make of something like this? I'm glad you asked about that one. That's an all-time favorite of mine, Ryan.

What's interesting about that encounter, that legend, if you will, is that that's not the only account of that essentially exactly, you know, the same scenario. There are numerous accounts. One of the earliest, I think, that I found actually was from a Norwegian document, which was called the King's Mirror. The King's Mirror is fascinating. I mean, I've written articles, actually, for our pales, Ben and Aaron over at Mysterious Universe, about the King's Mirror over the years.

And I've referred to it as medieval Fortiana at its finest. And the reason is why is because in the King's Mirror, you've got the, you know, again, one of the classic accounts of the Kraken, which it doesn't describe as anything, you know, squid-like, although most modern scholars, you know, would contend, and I wouldn't disagree that, again, many of the early accounts of what we recognize as the Cracan. actually were references to things like the giant squid, which we now know to exist, archituthos, you know, which I've been fascinated with since I was a child. In the wonders of Ireland, there's a section in the King's Mirror that discusses Ireland and things that have been discovered there, and it gives an account of a hairy wild man that's a very unique account, which I won't go into details about right now, because I want to come back to what you're talking about.

The same account that you just gave us appears also, a version of it in the king's mirror. And there are other versions of it that appear elsewhere, too. And when I actually, I went to Leeds a number of years ago and actually gave a lecture there at an exopolitics conference where I talked about that case and some of the similar traditions of not only ships sailing through the sky, but also this broader idea of, you know, storm wizards. I always liked that, you know. And this very much plays into that idea, the belief in the idea, as debunked by the Bishop Agobard of Lyon, back in the 800s, of a sky realm from which people like this came, which they had a name for. They called it Magonia. These accounts of the ship sailing through the sky are interesting to me, but the fact that that story is retold and retold in so many different ancient texts suggests to me that it quite obviously didn't probably happen.

Some of the variants describe that the anchor was preserved in the church. Some say that it was left in the graveyard because it got hung on a actual gravestone. Some of the versions tell that the people rushed out and tried to grab the man and hold him, but either a bishop or a priest or whomever, you know, the holy man in the version of the story may be given the narrative in question. He will stop them and, you know, tell them, let him go. And then he is able to escape so that he can go back up to his ship. because presumably he can't breathe air when he's off of his ship. I mean, again, there are all these very colorful interpretations.

What's also interesting, though, about that legend is their conception of people who pass through the sky, but what are they in? They're not in some sort of marvelous technological contrivance. They're in a ship. They're in a sailing ship. And that you might say has some similarities to another very classic pre-euphology flap, actually what many have actually acknowledged as the first UFO wave over America, which was the 1896, 1897 airship wave. Lauren Gross, highly underrated UFO historical researcher, who has, he actually self-published a number of chronologies of UFO events that occurred up

through about the time of Betty and Barney Hill. He saw that event as being so shifting in terms of the UFO phenomenon because it introduced all these elements that were so unique to and also absent from UFOology prior to that point that, you know, it was just a game changer for him. And for various reasons, he kind of got out of the UFO historical habit. But up until about that time, Gross published these remarkable self-published, you know, histories of the UFO phenomenon. And he gave a very authoritative account, which I believe the Center for UFO Studies is made available at their website as a PDF that anyone can download. but he looks at the 1896-97 airship wave. Now, again, I would say that the 1980s airship thing would just be like what you're describing there.

You know, the ships in the sky and everything. This is just another legend. But there are some very unusual reports from that period. And being an old newspaper hound, I love to get on newspapers.com and try and dig up as well as the Library of Congress chronicling America, you know, this particular UFO wave and also pre-UFO. Uphological reports from prior to 1947. Some of the accounts that were given were quite interesting during the airship wave, and it does cause me to wonder one of a few things. Could some of the actual sightings of airships have involved real physical,

tangible objects? One, for instance, siding in the very early days of the flap actually involved nothing similar to an airship, but it was an account from south of Sacramento where a man said that a fellow had been walking by and had asked for a glass of water from his water pump, just kind of a town vagrant or something along those lines, but that he looks up and out of the corner of his eye sees something passing through the sky. And he says that the man who had asked for the water saw it to, and they both observed something that was like a square,

roughly the color of parchment, passing through the sky, heading in the direction of Sacramento, but in broad daylight. I mean, they got a very good look at this. And it didn't sound like an airship. It didn't sound like, you know, anything else that was being described in the newspapers at that time. but this man said very matter-of-factly there was some weird craft or object flying through the sky that he had observed.

So some of those reports from around that time, yet again, were they fell outside the whole airship, you know, mythology. And I say mythology, not to try and dismiss it and say, this is all nonsense. I mean, what happens when you have people that start seeing strange things in the sky? And then it gets reported in the newspapers. And you've got everyone, including, you know, Mayor Sutro's, you know, staff and, and people in town who had been among the members. I think the town constable had also seen it. You know, policemen, business owners, people had all said, oh, yes, we saw the great airship

as it passed over Sacramento. We observed it, you know, and the descriptions that were given, very vague, mostly just a bright light as it was passing, kind of maybe drifting back and forth as though the wind was blowing it, but something moving through the air. Again, it leaves a lot to the imagination, but I have little doubt that based on some of those news reports, people were seeing something. And the nighttime reports essentially described it as a, like they said, it looked like an arc light. Imagine like a great bit of light bulb with the filament there in the center.

The light's up really brightly like an old-timey light bulb, something akin to that. So I'm kind of intrigued by some of those reports, but again, I wonder if people were actually seeing something, do they project onto that, this idea of the sort of sailing vessel that even as recently as the 1890s most people would have been familiar with? But again, they didn't describe a ship. They were saying an airship. They were seeing propellers and things along those lines. All of this in anticipation of the actual development of dirigible and airships as we know them today. So, you know, again, in the pre-euphological context, I don't know what to make of those cases.

I think that there may be something to it. I do think, though, that the sky ships from the Middle Ages and the anchor that was dropped more in the realm of legend in that case. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free.

The truth is ours. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 N-EX files, may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. What's up guys, Ryan Sprag here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create.

So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. Yeah, I would have to agree with you. Just hearing you say that you have heard this story, different iterations throughout time, shows how much these things can make it to a different culture

and then take on a whole new lens. That's why stories are so powerful, I feel. They're so malleable. And that's good and bad. When it comes to UFO research, it's a little challenging because we're trying to narrow in, on a physical craft being seen. But yeah, I want to move back, I guess, back to medieval times that I took us out of there briefly. But you also look a lot into classic art. Now, a lot of us who think of Middle Ages or ancient aliens or, you know, the idea of UFOs being seen during BC times

or early AD times, we see these images of Mary with Jesus, with a UFO in the background, or these, what have you, hieroglyphics on the pyramids of men in spacesuits. I mean, this is going really all over the place. But what about when it comes to classic art? Yeah, I know. We might as well, let's just do it, man. When it comes to art, what do you make of these interpretations of literal, like, saucers being painted into these portraits?

I mean, it's astounding to me. This isn't a photo that caught something, and we looked at it later on. Like, this took hours for someone to paint. So they had to have been seeing that object there, possibly. Maybe not. Maybe not. That's one interpretation. So the interesting thing about art is when it relates to the idea of UFOs appearing in classical art,

admittedly, some of the objects that appear in the paintings are convincing enough, of course, that it had caused me to have to say, look, I mean, are these things flying saucers? I mean, that's what these things really look like. but the problem is that when you look at certain Renaissance period paintings especially that depict actual scenes from the life of the Savior, for instance. If we're seeing actual representations of the life of Christ or Mary, often what we have is we have a representation on a canvas

of a narrative from an actual text. And what is often left out in the, again, not to present it as a pejorative, but again, in the ancient astronaut interpretation, What is often left out is they look at a painting and they'll see the superficial image or the resemblance in the image of an object to a flying saucer and say, my gosh, that's a UFO. But if you look at another painting that depicts the same scene or the same passage from the New Testament, for instance, often what you will find is a very different representation. What may look superficially sauced like in one image and another painting by another painting. may actually look nothing like a UFO.

It may very clearly look like the clouds opening up and light shooting down from an opening in the cloud. Sometimes an angel is actually visible in this opening in the cloud. And, you know, again, that seems to be the issue. I think that everyone wants, everyone has an idea of, you know, what they're after, whether it's proving UFOs, maybe disproving UFOs, disproving any kind of extraordinary claim, you know, or endorsing one. Unfortunately, what I do find is that often believers and, skeptics tend to cherry pick. In this case, when we see people looking at paintings and saying,

that's a flying saucer, man, come on. Raphael was painting a flying saucer. If we look at other paintings, you have to acknowledge that not all the artists were painting flying saucers. And then we look back at the flying saucer in this one, and we realize, again, what we may actually be observing is his interpretation of a hole in the sky, the light shooting down, but we see a disc with a ray or a light being produced by it or something along those lines. Similar to this is the idea of cave art. You know, my love for archaeology. And, you know, in a lot of, for instance, I think Tassili Cave and is it Algeria, I believe, where it's seen, we see this very interesting, many different, you know, representations there and elsewhere of, you know, what we could only call men in spacesuits, you know, what men appear to have, you know, globes, you know, or.

of some kind, almost like a fishbowler on their head. This reminds us of some sort of helmet, some sort of uniform or some sort of a space suit perhaps. And the problem is when we really look at that art, when we really look at that cave art, we have to kind of ask ourselves, as detailed as this cave art is, is it really detailed enough that we can, with certainty,

say that is a guy in a space suit? Furthermore, how certain are we that aliens are going to show up wearing space suits that look like what our astronauts would wear when they went to the moon in the 1960s. Ask yourself this. In the modern reports and accounts of abductions or contacts, it's not to say that they don't ever occur, but how often do you hear about aliens wearing retro-looking, you know, space suits like, you know, Apollo-era NASA stuff? Quite evidently, when the books about ancient astronauts began to really become popular in the 60s and 70s, what had been happening with the U.S. space program at that time, what kind of

spacesuits were being worn, you know? You have to realize that. that that is an element of this. And again, it's not to disparage the idea that there could have been visitation to Earth in ancient times. Because despite all of my skepticism, you know, Ryan, I spoke to an arch-skeptic physicist at one of the regional universities here. Actually, he's an astronomer, who I don't think he would mind me naming him. I either, Dr. Daniel Caiton, used to write a very skeptically inclined column for the Charlotte Observer. I remember in a radio interview that we did years ago, Dr. Caten, who is very down on the idea of UFOs in the modern context, said, if Earth has ever been visited, I think it happened a long time ago. And I'm like, what?

He says, well, but if you think about it, you know, the Earth, in the billions of years that this planet has existed, you know, I mean, humans, remember Neil deGrasse Tyson saying humans have been here, you see the tip of my pinky, not even that long. well, in all of that time before we got here, and in all of that time that civilizations could have come and gone, and utilized technology that could help them traverse the stars, the likelihood, actually, if we're speaking in terms of probability, would be that in that period before us coming along, that would have been the period that there's so much more time for Earth to have been visited,

and in likelihood that's actually when Earth would have been visited rather than when we're here right now. So again, we start to see that there's this sort of anthropocentrism. Well, if UFOs are coming to Earth, if Earth, you know, space fairs would have come here, it's got to be while we're here, right? Not necessarily. I mean, again, if a civilization billions of years ago existed and then a supernova destroys their planet and all memory of them is lost from the universe,

what's to say that they didn't rise to a position to a point of technological sophistication that brought them to a place like here at some point long ago? So, again, there are some skeptics who would actually contend that if Earth has been visited, it actually would have occurred a long time ago, which, you know, it's a fair point. But one more point that I'd like to raise in relation to ancient art about this. Again, I mentioned the discussion with David Halperin recently, which on the Micah Hank's program, my podcast, that is this week's episode. And so you can listen to the entire thing there for free. he had had a colleague bring to his attention the fact that what is known as this is a piece of art, I believe it's called the pre-dionika mask from Kosovo.

His colleague said, you know, that alien that you showed a picture of in your presentation, the alien, by the way, in question, Ryan, was the famous depiction of a gray that appeared on the original cover of Whitley Streber's book Communion. And I don't even call it a guilty pleasure. I've always enjoyed that book, and I think that it should be essential reading for anybody who's interested in studying modern euphology, whether or not you take all the ideas and the claims presented it as being pure reality. The point I think I'd make about that, which is a topic for another conversation, but I'm not sure Whitley did. And if you read that book, and he has pointed this out himself, he never said that they were extraterrestials that he was having encounters with. He said, for instance, what if there were time travelers? What if they were our ancient ancestors somehow communicating with us?

My favorite idea that he presents in the book was what if this is what evolution looks like to us as it's happening before our eyes. Incredibly forward thinking. I love that idea of aliens being either evolution or, let's be honest, de-evolution of humanity. Are they time travelers coming back to see how we once were? I find that fascinating. I think you're right. He never once says alien. He always calls them visitors, which could mean a thousand different things.

So I'm glad you brought that up, yeah. He did speculate about what he thought they might have been, but more in a poetic way. And then when he went on Larry King, you know, and they've got some, who was it? I can't recall who the skeptic had been at that time. But during that live panel, I remember Whitley saying at one point, you know, I never said that these were extraterrestrials. He doesn't describe ever being taken aboard a UFO. He does describe going into an environment and he goes out into the woods. He describes some things that are somewhat UFO like, but he doesn't describe,

I saw the saucer hovering outside my window. Again, that is something that very much we could say, the UFO community eager to find an answer to all of these reports at that time, they may have projected their own desires on to Whitley's story. Now, coming back to the pre-Dionika mask from Kosovo, this, again, this is a very skeptically inclined, researcher, or not a researcher even so much as a professor, probably of religious studies, and a colleague of Dr. Halperin, who, again, is a retired professor of religious studies from

UNC Chapel Hill. And he says this pre-Di Annika mask rubles is the thing on the cover of that book remarkably. And again, what we have is we have slightly slanted, ovoid wrap-around eyes, slight peek at the top of the head, but essentially an egg-shaped head. And I looked at it and talking with Dr. Halper, and I said, that image in the mask that you see there is also remarkably similar to other artistic representations from all around the world since time immemorial. I mean, I've seen them in, you know, from Mesopotamian art. I've seen them a lot in Mesoamerican art. And see, this is where my interest in archaeology comes over into this. You know, I'm able to recognize, not that

others can't, but I mean, I certainly see those similarities myself. And that brings some interesting questions to mind. Obviously, we could interpret that as being, well, these people knew what these things look like, and aliens have been visiting us since time immemorial. Maybe. I don't know. But what Dr. Halperin suggests is that whatever this experience is, it's not an outer or an upper, you know, it's an inner experience and that this, whatever this is is something that we see from here. And I've always thought about, for instance, this brings us back to Tasili Cave and some of these representations of strange beings and personages that appear in cave art. things. Some of them very literally, Ryan, have mushrooms growing all over them.

It couldn't be more spelled out for us right there. These probably are gods or deities or images that people may have experienced when in altered states of consciousness. And I've always thought, you know, if you were an extraterrestrial civilization, or let's say more importantly, if we as humans conceiving of an extraterrestrial civilization, we always think they're going to have some sort of a real high-tech walkie-talkie. You guys down there? What if their methods of contact don't involve dropping down in a flying saucer on the front lawn of the White House? What if their version of contact is direct to consciousness type contact?

And, again, take them for whatever they are. But, I mean, I will make the, I will raise the point that in many cases where people have described alleged contact with occupants of UFOs. There's one of two things that's usually present. Curiously, they are able to understand what the aliens say, and they take it as they were speaking English, or some observers say, actually, I don't recall ever seeing their mouths move. It was though they were, Barney Hill said this, Betty Hill said this,

it's as though they were directing thought to me, and it was thought transference. Barney Hill, by the way, at the time that he used that to describe it, he wasn't familiar as far as we know with the term telepathy. And so, which I thought it was very novel that he actually used such a interesting term, thought transference to describe it. That might be better than telepathy in my opinion. It was too far off.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, and that's a fascinating case in itself. But again, the idea that the mind is some component with the idea of contact is already present in many alleged claims of contact already. And so I can't help but wonder, you know, rather than spacemen and space suits on cave walls, we very well may be seeing aliens, but again, non-human intelligences that were contacted through other methods of contact, and those probably involved altered states, in my opinion. So, again, I think that there are all kinds of mysteries and art from antiquity and even further back, but got to be really careful about saying they're for flying saucers, right? Really good point. I mean, I know some people in the chat brought up Alexander the Great seeing flying shields in the sky before battle or the Hopi Indians also seeing something similar to flying shields in the sky. May I touch on that?

Absolutely. Please do. The motif of shields flying through the sky or falling from the sky, that is a common theme in many texts. But again, if you read, for instance, especially in the old world where on the day of the day of the, the great battle, a shield fell from the sky. Yes, the shield would have a superficial appearance to a flying disc or saucer, but again, culturally what that seems to represent is the idea of favor shown toward one side of the battle, you know, than the other. Now, I raised that point to make the observation that in historical accounts, there are references to a number of things.

For, you know, a portion of the day, we observed a great disk in the sky. The disc, the sky, the disc of the sun, especially in Egyptian texts. They refer to the disc of the sun. I strongly suspect that going, you know, a good ways back, you know, the ancient mind could conceive of the idea that the sun was a globe, but I mean, even today, superficially, it appears almost like a flattened disk. And so we have to be very careful when we think about flying disks in the modern sense of what that means versus when we read translations of ancient texts that were written in different languages, which in the translated form, describe the disc of the sun or a disc in the sky or a shield in the sky or something along those lines,

those words and the interpretation of those things could and often did mean very different things to the ancient mind than they did today. However, as someone there in the chat had certainly pointed out, there are yes references to the idea of flying shields in some Hopi traditions, which again, I wouldn't begin to understand fully the cultural lens through which they are looking when they describe something like that. But I would nonetheless maintain that we've got to be very careful in projecting our own willful desire to find a flying saucer in American Indian folklore.

That may be what it is, but maybe that's not what it is. You know, again, then again, there are also some fantastic writers, you know, who have indigenous heritage, RD6 Killer Clark, who has written some very interesting books that provide cultural narratives on the UFO subject from a Native American perspective, which I would recommend for those who are interested in this subject to read.

Some of the stories are, they border, they find an area between myth and folklore and reality that is hard to, it's a hard line to walk at times, but it makes for a very interesting reading. She's a very interesting writer. Yeah, another one that comes in mind

would be Clifford Mahoudi from the Sunni tribe. I met with him recently to talk about petroglyphs that he'd found in Arizona. and just hearing the stories of the star people, the sky people. Again, it comes down to culture and what's past and what's interpreted. What we're talking about right now really brings me back to the work of Carl Yagui as well. And you even said the word anxiety or stress or anticipation. This idea that what we're seeing is either aspiration of what we want our technology to possibly become

or anxiety at the time. He argues that a lot of the UFO sightings post-World War I before World War II, these were anxieties we had of another invading or the possibility of an invasion in our skies of literally bombs being dropped on us. So what do you make of this whole thing, the idea of stress, anxiety, the cultural mindset at that time, maybe even a collective consciousness of something either a symbol or a harbinger of like death or doom. I mean, we're having mass UFO sightings right now like never before in the middle of a pandemic.

So what do you make of this idea, the stuff that Carl Jung talks about a lot? Well, no, Carl Jung, it's so funny that this came up because this is something that Halperin and I were talking about yesterday. And I've always been interested in Carl Jung. For instance, in some of his essays on phenomenology, he described some of his patients who, described dreams from which they woke up and saw, you know, grotesque hobgoblins and cobalds standing around their bed. What does that sound like? You know, it's interesting. Again, there are always more than one interpretation of something like that, but some might say that his patients were describing alien abduction type experiences.

We also might say he was identifying a variety of dream encounter that many people in modern times interpret as being alien abduction experience. whatever one makes of it. Again, there's some fantastically rewarding reading in Carl Young. Even though he's often disparaged in modern times, Ryan, people these days often kind of write him off. And they think all of this discussion of archetypes and things is nonsense. To the contrary, if you look at some of the psychological jargon that he actually is responsible for introducing into the not just archetype, but again, I think that the idea, the concept of individuation, which is essentially, sort of like a coming of, it's not quite a coming of age.

Individuation often occurs later in life, but he, in describing that, also seemed to describe even though he didn't use this term for it. He seemed to describe the midlife crisis that many men go through. So the point I'm making is that Young was actually very ahead of his time, and even though a lot of people, a lot of people, got really dismayed with the fact that toward the end of his life, he starts writing at length about alchemy, and yes, flying saucers. I actually found him to be deeply insightful. I think he was a maverick.

I think he was a genius. He wasn't right about everything, and at times he's been proven explicitly wrong, but I don't think that because you can prove that somebody's wrong, if one of my fingers is wrong, that doesn't mean that the whole hand's got to go, right? Actually, we hope not. But, I mean, the thing is, is that with Jung,

yeah, toward the end of his life, he starts writing about flying saucers, and he produced an essay, which, yet again, I think this should be required reading for any serious euphologists, flying saucers, a modern myth things seen in the skies. Here it is.

I came prepared, buddy. I may not know what the hell we're talking about, but I got the literature to prove I will. I'm all over it. Here's another one just to add it in there. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, I've met him a number of times over the years. And the last time he and I and his wonderful assistant,

who is a dear friend of mine, Romon Zercher, of Switzerland. They're wonderful guys. you know, really quickly about Von Denick, and he's kind of disparaging toward UFOology. He says, the UFOologists, they make this ancient astronauts look very bad. We cannot take the UFOs seriously.

Everything that they see in the sky is a UFO. We are looking at the archaeological record, and this is very real. So he's very, at times, dismissive of what he sees as being a bunch of hucksters and charlatans in the UFO community. he's not entirely wrong, right? Then again, I just won't tell you what some of my friends in the archaeological community think of him. But, you know, I mean, I believe in talking to everybody and sitting down and getting to know what they think.

And I love when I have that kind of experience with someone. Anyway, coming back to Jung, I just wanted to interject that since you showed Von Aniken's book. Oh, yeah. But Jung wrote about UFOs as a modern myth of things seen in the sky. And, you know, yes, people get very offended by that idea of, you know, what do you mean, a myth? UFOs is a myth. But, I mean, what he meant, and I think that this is the fundamental takeaway that one must glean from any reading of young or for that matter, Joseph Campbell, is that myth is part of the human experience. And humans are all, I don't care who you are, we're all trying to find, you know, ourselves.

And we're all trying to understand what it really means to be alive. We may not go about our daily lives thinking about those things overtly all the time. But, I mean, that's part of the human experience to try and find a sense of meaning and belonging. And we could go back into ancient times and suggest strongly that politics and religion and all these sorts of tribal behaviors, some of them, I mean, they aren't all bad. You know, I'm not saying it's bad to go to church on Sunday if you're a religious person, but I am saying that, you know, again, religious observances, political attitudes. these are all, okay, behavioral aspects of what it means to be human that at times have been beneficial to us in our survival. I highly recommend the book, The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Hyatt has nothing to do with UFOs, but it will give you some really interesting insight into politics, religion, and yes, now apply that to believers versus skeptics.

You know, it's a phenomenon in itself these days that, you know, the skeptics, are the ones who are the only ones who are quoted on Wikipedia if you go read on Wikipedia pages about UFOs. And yet many times, I think it's actually demonstrable that many of the skeptics are no more right and often are quite wrong than, you know, than the so-called believers who are the crazy ones who never get quoted. So I argue this middle path. And I think that Young did too. And if you read a modern myth of things in the sky, you know, his conception of UFOs, yes, throughout the duration of the book is looking at the psychological and the mythos, the psychos symbolic or the mythos psychological, he has different terms for it,

but he looks at the mythical component, okay, how a human myth and how those ideas of archetypes, you know, these recurring themes that seem to be something that the human mind possesses, which are evidence of past experience. If we were to define an archetype, essentially it is a recurring motif in human culture that is essentially a vestige of an earlier human experience. And those archetypal ideas are become, they become often indelibly a part of our mythology. And there is similarity in mythologies from different parts of the world

that presumably had no contact with one another, which is strongly evocative of this idea, that the mythic portion of the human mind, evolutionarily speaking, this gets kind of out there, but bear with me, the mythic element of the mind, the language of myth or archetype, bears a continuity because of the idea that deep down there was a shared common experience. Think of flood myths from all around the world in different cultures, right? Even Native American legends describe those.

I mean, think of, for instance, this is a weird one. The idea that when it rains when the sun is shining, so many cultures around the world interpret that as being a fox wedding. They say foxes are getting married. All over the world, there are cultures that have this tradition. So Jung was very interested in the reasons why those similarities appear. And so he's looking at UFOs as being a projection of, you know, our collective concerns. I mean, it's no surprise that these things start showing up right after the Second World War.

And so war nerves and all of this causes this sort of mythical aspect of the human mind to communicate. and we began to have this collective experience of the UFO as a visionary, mythical, modern mythical kind of a thing. So there you go. There's a psychological perspective. The last chapter in that book. Now, I mean, I don't know if you, we can't speak for Halperin. We can't speak for Young, obviously. But within their writing or from interviewing Helper, someone brings up in the chat, Brian brings up, you know, Young thought this was all some big mass hallucination.

the circle being that of oneness to bring us back together. It's fascinating. Now, would Halperin, or do you think Young would admit or at least acknowledge, I guess, is a better word, that there is an actual physical phenomenon happening? They can't all be mass hallucinations, right? Young didn't think so. And thank you, Brian, for bringing it up. That's a great point. That last chapter that I began to mention there, yes, in the last chapter of the book, Young, he said,

says, look, you know, if these things are just purely psychological, I've never seen a psychological thought projection that can be detected on radar. And therefore, and here's the thing, Jung was something of an amateur eophologist himself. He says in the book, I've been in, I've corresponded with Edward Ruppled, I have corresponded with Donald Kehoe. He was in touch with all of the leading researchers in this field at that time. And he acknowledged, look, some of these things show up on radar. There are multiple witness sightings. And again, that's the point I want to drive home here, too. We have to look at the human faculty, because really everything we've been doing tonight, looking at the cases from antiquity up to the present. And even, I think, in modern UFO sightings, too, we have to look at that Jungian side of this. But I don't present that as a pet theory that explains all UFOs. And I'm very thankful that Jung, despite being the the eminent psychologist of his time, and arguably the most influential of all time, even more so, in my opinion, than Freud, although some may dispute that. He also said, look, guys, we cannot deny some tangible reality to some of these sidings.

And I absolutely agree with it. Now, Dr. Halperin does not, he said, as I spoke with him, and again, what a wonderful interview, wonderful guy to talk with. But I asked him, I said, now let's talk about something you mentioned in the book, Lonnie Zamora and Socorro. Dr. Halperin said, I still cannot reconcile with that one. That one, you know, there were physical traces left at the landing side. If we'll actually, a deep reading of that case, I mean, there may have been other witnesses other than Lonnie Zamora. The skeptical interpretation, too, I've seen over the years. One had been that it was an experimental landing module that had been tested. But if that's the case, again, I don't see an identifiable propulsion system. The skeptical angle on the landing module would have been that it was actually being carried alongside a helicopter and that Lonnie just didn't see that it was on a helicopter. I'm like, come on, come on. The interpretation is that it was a candle balloon, in the words of one local scientist who had argued this, he said it was a candle balloon, not sophisticated.

It sure don't sound like what Lonnie Zamora saw to me, okay? Heineck took such interest in that case. Again, I think at times, and this is the only, being so skeptical myself, it's funny, I actually catch some ire from certain skeptics, but I'm friends with a lot of them, too, including a shout out to my man, Eric Woljikowsky. You know, he's a writer for Skeptic Magazine, and he and I have corresponded over the years, and I've had him on my show.

I appreciate the skeptical interpretation, as well as that of many believers. But when anybody starts claiming that they can explain 100% of the time, something that there is so much varied debate about, as the case with UFOs, I immediately become skeptical of that skepticism. The feedback loop, man, I know. Well, okay.

So let's move ahead, I guess, a little bit to more of the modern UFO era, build upon what we just talked about in terms of interpretation and everything. We move to the work of Charles Ford. Now, I know this is a huge inspiration for you in your work and many other 14 researchers out there. And you brought to me the 14 Society and UFOs, a survey of the UFO mystery, going all the way from, you know, the late 1800s up to the mid-40s,

when presumably the modern UFO era really started. So what did you take away from this, the work of Dr. Fort when, excuse me, Charles Fort when it comes to this? Yeah. A doctor in his own mind. His own mind, yes. And many others, yeah. I like that. Yeah, doctor.

You know, so Fort had a lot of interesting ideas. And to call them interesting is maybe in the minds of some a little too nice. Although I don't know if you ever wrote anything offensive. but I'm trying to think of, oh, it was Heineck. Heinek had spoken pretty dismissively about Charles Ford. I think Heinek acknowledged that Fort anticipated modern euphology, but he did not seem to approve of the way that Fort wrote about it. And actually, Fort's writing style in and of itself was just damned bizarre.

Do you remember? Yeah. You know, like, let me see if I can freestyle rap, you know, an example for you. here. Here we go. Do it. Strange light shot from cloud like blood dropping from Eye of Dragon. Wind blue. Blood rain. Blood rain. Blood rain. I mean, he wrote in this bizarre kind of rambling kind of, I guess it was prose, but it was almost poetic at times. I was just like, man, what is, you know, it's very difficult, but yet it had an effect and obviously a lasting one, you know. So, So, Jung, but now what's almost said Jung, I would love to know what Jung thought about Fort,

and I'm sure probably it's mentioned somewhere, but the big takeaway from me with Fort, he did two things. Fort got people thinking outside the box. You know, Fort, Fort was the kind of guy who he didn't mind the ridicule. He wanted to go up there and smack science around and say, you know, what's this? What's this? What's this? This isn't from, you know, some crackpot, you know, novel or some journal. or some scroll I found in a cave.

This was from, you know, the minutes of the royal society. This is from the journal Nature. I mean, he was going and he was harvesting reports that fell outside of conventional fault. He was harvesting them from science literature. And that was, I think, why what he did was so effective? Because people were like, what is that? And it inspired, I think, a whole generation of similar thinkers. So that's the one thing that he did that was so important.

But the other thing, and this is really key for UFO researchers, Fort was cataloging anomalous aerial occurrences well in advance of 1947. And what's really interesting, and again, the late historian, Lauren Gross, who we mentioned earlier, did fantastic work with this, in chronicling the continued interest after Fort of the Fortean society leading up to the age of the saucers that begins in 1947, the 14th Society was very much involved in documenting alleged reports of aerial phenomena before things were called flying saucers or UFOs of any sort. So in addition to getting people thinking outside of the box and really having this cultural impact that he did,

for good or for ill, you know, Fort also seemed to have anticipated, he and the 14ians that followed after him, they anticipated the modern UFO era. And a great example, well, first I should note that Fort actually wrote pretty extensively, not only about the airships, but he also looked at astronomers and their observations of unusual objects. And there's this fantastic kind of corollary we can make here, which ties back in with the report, the legend of the sky ship dropping the anchor and everything that you mentioned earlier. Lauren Gross in writing about Fort talked about the famous observation. of the German,

I guess he was actually in Switzerland at the time that he observed this. But the astronomer, this is, of course, in the book of the damned where a strange object, a spindle-shaped object is observed over the sun. And this, again, I think, occurs in the middle 1700s, right? And Fort was of the mind that this was, he gave this thing a name. He said this was a super Zeppelin. He said somebody else's zeppelin that can fly between planets. was seen and this this is what was observed out there as it was orbiting the sun or as it was passing between earth and the sun.

And he gave it a name. He called it Monstrator. That's what called this. Lauren Gross writing about Monstrator said for Fort they had arrived. Someone had dropped anchor. And I just, I love that interpretation. Again, we don't know what this thing was. This very well may have been an early astronomical observation of an Omuamua-like object, you know, in our own solar. system or something interstellar that came from outside that was passing through.

We don't know. I doubt sincerely that if Omuamua is an interstellar visitor, that it is really the only, the first one, rather. It's certainly not the only one because we've got this other comet, now a fragmentary comet that is split into two, but which is believed also to have been of interstellar origin. But the point I'm making is that our observation of interstellar objects passing through our solar system is limited by the technology that we are able to utilize in observing them. and prior to the existence of that technology,

who's to say there weren't other Oumuamuas that came through. Now, to give a non-Fortian example of the anticipation of UFO-like literature, like what we're discussing there, I referenced this article by Vincent Gattis, visitors from the void, which is a fantastic article that appeared in the same issue of Ray Palmer's amazing stories as the introduction of what became known as the Shaver Mystery. I'm sure a lot of people know.

Yeah, at least my listeners know, are, familiar, yeah. Yeah, Richard Sharp Shavers, you know, crazy ramblings about detrimental robots or darrows, leftover. Yeah, the insane robotic remnants of a lost civilization that was here on Earth. Palmer tried to keep it at arm's distance, but Palmer definitely, Ray Palmer, the publisher of amazing stories, seemed to really think that in likelihood this was all true. He thought Shaver has explained, and what's fascinating is that Palmer also,

had claimed that he was receiving reports. He wrote prior to 1947 that he'd been getting reports from servicemen and women who had been in the Pacific theater or in the, you know, who had been over, you know, Europe during the Second World War. And he says, I think that Schaever, Mr. Schaever will be vindicated here in the years to come. And that the reports I'm getting from some of our folks who have been flying over Europe, they've been seeing things that I think will will vindicate Mr. Schaever's story. Well, lo and damn behold, I mean, again, Charles Book. Charles Ford's book of the damned being the whole thing. He says these are the damned facts that science won't allow. In that issue that introduces the Shaver Mystery,

Vincent H. Gettis publishes the article, Visitors from the Void. And I want to just read really briefly here from the beginning. There have been signs, symbols, and objects in the skies of Earth. Like we've been discussing all night, Ryan, described as snakes, swords, lights, and rockets, Slow-moving so-called meteors have zigzagged their way above the clouds, and stratospheric explosions have rocked the land below.

Mysterious rays, stopped airplane motors over the world's largest city as unidentified phantom planes puzzled the war departments of four nations. Ships and men were observed to drop from the heavens in isolated areas only to vanish. And he says, this is the startling story of bewildering events that have occurred in the last few years. what relationship, if any, exists between these varied reports, who or what lies behind them. And then he goes on to give a story of a mystery airship that was spotted over at this. Point Pleasant West Virginia. Of course.

In October 1931, years before any mothman business. Or Flatwood's Monster. Or Flatwood's Monster or Kenneth Arnold, for that matter. Vincent Gattis is laying out, you know, mysterious aerial visitors over the Americas. Later that same, actually, I think that the issue in question went to print in June that year, I think. So later that month, this pilot from Boise, Idaho is flying out over Mount Rainier and sees these objects that are moving very strangely. He likens their movement to saucers skipping across the water and the rest is victory. So to say that the flying saucers arrived in 1947 with Kenneth Arnold, no.

You know, there had been a long history of researchers looking at weird. things in the sky, whether or not they were saucers or UFOs as we know them. Yet again, even Kenneth Arnold, he said that what the press began to refer to as his siding of flying discs, he said that they were more like Chevron shaped or they almost had like a batwing kind of appearance. He didn't necessarily describe flying discs or saucers at all. So we have to ask ourselves in that regard, coming back to Young, is it really fair to say that although UFOs may exist, this idea of flying saucers, is a bit of a modern

mythology, something that we project onto the UFO phenomenon. Now, I've also interviewed people as you have who have seen actual disks, too. It's hard. It's such a chicken and egg thing. And that's the most frustrating thing about the modern UFO era is a misquote in a newspaper is what ushered in the term flying saucer, and then everyone started seeing saucer-shaped craft after that, when that's not even what he originally reported to have seen. So that's, that's hard. That's hard to debate. That's hard to argue. But at the same time, going back to antiquity times and the fact that people were still seeing disc-shaped objects or shield-shaped objects, it does show that this form, this, whatever you want

to call it, saucer shape or disc-shaped luminous object or solid object, have been seen much longer than when the first misinterpretation of Flying Saucer came to be. You know what else is really interesting? That expression, I didn't know this until fairly recently myself, Flying Saucer, those two words paired together in reference to disc-shaped objects flying through the air, did exist before Kenneth Arnold. Really? For decades.

And it was actually, I learned this from Chris Allbeck, who I've, he and I have actually emailed over the years, but I've never really had a good chat with him. And I hope to, in fact, when I was in Portugal last December, he resides in Spain. I looked at the possibility of trying to get in touch with him and head over there, jump on a train. If time allowed, it didn't. I had so much going on while I was traveling, but I would really like to get to know Chris better. But Chris had pointed out that indeed, if we do archival newspaper searches, we will find the appearance of the expression flying saucer, Ryan. But it wasn't with reference to any kind of anomalous phenomenon. It was in reference

to what are also known as clay pigeons, which, you know, wound shooters, you know, if you're taking a shotgun, you shoot, you know, like a frisbee-like, kind of a made of clay that you throw and you shoot. They were from time to time referred to as flying saucers in early newspaper accounts, which is interesting because it very well may be the case then

that the first newspaperman, he might have gone to the gun ranges on the weekends or something and had been familiar with that term, but it's very likely that he had borrowed, not created the expression we know today as flying saucer. Oh, that's interesting. No. I love that. Demystifying the term flying saucer. No, tracing it back to its origins. It's true origins, which are even deeper than we ever thought.

Yeah, yeah. Wow, man. Well, this has been quite a journey. I'm not going to lie. We went all the way to, you know, BC in this conversation up until the modern UFO era. And what's happening today with UFO studies in, you know, since the story broke in 2017. So kind of, I guess, bookending this, where do you think we stand today as, let's take the UFO community, zoom in a little bit. Where do we stand today when it comes to UFOs? I mean, that's an extremely broad question. But we have these Navy encounters. We have new reporting systems within the military. We have the Army working to analyze UFO stuff with, you know, former intelligence officers, this that, this, that.

where do we stand today in 2020 when it comes to the UFO question and how it's being perceived by the mainstream? Right. Well, now, what's really interesting is the mainstream seems to have kind of warmed up to the idea, haven't they? Yeah. I do have to thank somebody and acknowledge somebody who you got to meet and speak with recently, and I'd love to talk with her to. Leslie Kane, I think Leslie is, you might go so far as to say she's largely responsible. for the cultural shift in relation to UFOs.

I mean, yes, she co-authored the article with Helene Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal in 2017. But, again, a lot of people don't pay attention to the fact that she also, one month before that, she had also written a Huffington Post piece. I mean, the day after Lou Elizondo left his position at the Pentagon, after he resigns, Leslie goes to Seattle, Washington, I believe it was, and she met him and spoke with him and Chris Mellon. Chris Mellon, whom she already knew because she and Chris were on the board of the UFO data project together, and she had interviewed him in 2016 for the Huffington Post. Leslie, before all of that, of course, back in what was it, 2010, authors this groundbreaking book, UFOs,

you know, generals, pilots, and government officials go on the record. And ladies and gents, I mean, in my opinion, there's no better book that summarizes the modern situation with UFOs than that one. So I would just want to say right here, you know, for all to hear, Leslie is, I would love to talk to her at some point because, and you got to recently, I saw that and I was so excited that you got to spend time with her because, man, she is a trailblazer. And really, she's spearheaded so much of this shift in cultural. It's not just the media is taking it seriously. Ryan, this is a shift in an entire cultural approach to an attitude toward this phenomenon. So thank you, Leslie Kane. First and foremost. Absolutely. She's just remarkable. To Leslie. To Leslie, indeed. I hope she's doing great, you know, up there in New York, all you guys up there.

I checked in on her a couple weeks ago. Everything seems to be good. So, yeah, she's not going anywhere. When this all blows over, I come up there again, you and me and she and old Peter Robbins, we're going back to the Euphoria diner. And we're going to have a breakfast. Everybody will remember. Absolutely.

But as far as the current state of things, it's no big secret. Anyone who listens to my shows, you'll recall that, to my knowledge, I think the first interview that Brett Tingley, writer for the war zone, gave after he began the series of articles on the mysterious Pais patents that the Navy has published, that appeared on my program. And the reason why is because Brett is a very good friend. And Brett and I spoke today on Skype, which is a real shame because he lives about an hour that way. He and I live in right here in the same region. And although the other guy I'm about to mention lives across the Atlantic, he's about as close to me as Brett is. Both of those guys and you, in fact, I call them brothers just like I would you.

And that is Tim McMillan. There's a wonderful threat over on Above Top Secret right now. You know, where does this guy come from? Just comes out of the blue, you know, this retired police officer. And I'm like, look, y'all want to know where Tim McMillan came from. Go back to the 2019 February episodes of my podcast, which was still called the Graelian report at that time. Tim was on my show way back in February. We didn't talk hardly at all about UFOs because he wasn't involved in it at that time.

If you want to know where Tim came from, I mean, he's been around for a while. He'd been emailing me since November of 2018 and just, and it had been in archaeological interests. Tim is just a seeker and a very interested and very highly intelligent guy, just like, you know, anybody who studies this sort of stuff, he has questions. By Joe, he goes after it, and he goes and finds answers. he and Tengley both. So being close with those guys like I am, having featured, I think maybe Tim had gone on an interview with John Greenwald because we're all pals and he and Greenwald have done a lot of live streams together.

But Tim might have gone on John's show before we went online. But the point I'm making is that these guys have been involved in this stuff. And then they start taking to it and they do reporting. I think they were in large part inspired by a lot of the reporting that we've been discussing and the cultural shift. And they're like, let's go and let's try and get answers. to all this. I've got some projects in the works right now, and that's part of the reason

Tingley and I were talking about it today. Tim and Tingley and I are working on a UFO-centered project, which I haven't talked about very much at all publicly. You're getting the exclusive here, guys. Little teens. You sort of are, yeah. And I'll be able to debrief you more on this in the future.

But the point I'm making is that, you know, this has been a project that has been like Tim and Brett's fine work, a response to UFOs and a modern one. If you notice anything from what Tim and Brett are doing, they're looking at Navy patents in Brett's case. Tim is literally getting inside information from Bigelow Advanced Space Studies, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies.

They are providing more details even than guys like Lou Elizondo were able to do to certain restrictions with relation to his job. And thanks to Tim, I've been in touch briefly, though it is, with Lou Elizondo, and it's really clarified a lot of questions that you, I, me, everybody in the UFO community that had about ATIP and Elizondo. But if I see anything going on percolating with the modern UFO situation, especially among younger researchers, because I think Brett's just a year and a half younger than me,

and Tim might be a little less than a year older than me. You and I are very close to the same age. What people right now are trying to do is we're trying to utilize good historical research methods, as we've discussed tonight, technology as simple and as accessible as Google Maps, you know, and it helps us prove that Zossuman in what was it, the year, the year 351, he had a very good idea of what a stadia was. You know, we can, we can now utilize astronomical software to determine what objects might have appeared in the sky when people were looking in a certain direction at a certain time. We have data at our disposal that the late great Stanton Friedman didn't have and yet look what he did.

But by Jove, if he could do what he did, and he had to drive up to Washington and sit there at the National Archives and pour through documents, you and I, it's even, These days, we fire an email off to the FBI or the Air Force and we submit our four-year requests on. Never leave our kitchen. That means there's no excuse because we have all of this at our disposal and ease of access and a sort of fluidity, you know, a liquidity, if I'm to use an economic term for it. It's incumbent upon us as the new era of UFO researchers with all that we have at our disposal now to do everything that we can and to follow in the footsteps of the Leslie Cain's. and the Stanton Friedmans and the Edward Rupports, you know, and the Charles forts. And limited though they were, look at all what they, look at all that they were able to accomplish. We have no excuse.

Let's get to work. I couldn't think of a better way to sort of wrap things up there, man. Let's get to work. We have all the time in the world now. So honestly, I can't tell you how much research I've been doing since this lockdown. It is a blessing in disguise in many ways. But, you know, we look forward. and however we come out of this entire crisis on the planet right now,

I think we'll have a better understanding and a better appreciation for humanity itself. And I think that's what's most important. So in terms of work, I got to ask you, both the Micahanks program, Middle Theory, seven ages, give it to us, man. What do you got coming up? Is there anything you can tease with our audience? And where can we find everything? Boom.

Go. I'm working on a couple of. of book projects. There's a short documentary project that has entirely to do with archaeology and some of the fine work that our friends in the University of South Carolina

archaeological program have been involved with at a plasticine era natural lake which is called White Pond. So Jason and James and I were recently down, right before this pandemic broke, we were actually down there at the White Pond site filming and speaking with our

dear colleague, Dr. Christopher Moore, a PhD who is yet again a trailblazer in a very different realm, that being archaeology. But in addition to that forthcoming documentary and, of course, the weekly podcasts I put out, which every podcast, everything I do, you can find it all at micahanks.com is my name right here. And so that.com. But, you know, and I put out a tremendous amount of podcast. It's almost mind-numbing because there's the Micahanks program and Middle Theory, which is news and current events.

I am non-partisan. I try to approach it. I mean, I have political, you know, attitudes, beliefs, you know, values, you know, whatever. But, I mean, I try to present, that's what the name means. It is a attempt at trying to present a non-partisan view on current events without the spin that you often see in the mainstream. And which could be hard to do at times, but I attempt it with the show. So that show in the Micah Hank's program, which deals with all of this that we've been discussing, go out every week. And then we also have the monthly seven ages.

We put out once or sometimes twice a month, depending on how busy we are. And there is a forthcoming podcast that has been slightly set back due to the stay-at-home orders. There's been a stay-at-home order with this pandemic in my county now for several weeks. And so that has limited the ability of some of my colleagues and I'd actually get together. But we do plan to, even if we have to record it remotely, which was never ideal. but we have a cryptozoologically themed program that will be forthcoming as well, which I hope to put out at least on a monthly basis as well. In addition to some writing projects and the aforementioned mysterious project that Tingley and Tim McMillan and I were looking on.

Yeah, we got some good stuff. Maybe I'll reach out to you on some of these projects in the future too, Ryan, because again, let me just close by saying, I respect the hell out of you and your advocacy for research, your research that you yourself do, the contents you produce, and, you know, your willingness to engage in dialogue with people and, you know, all around, really just to try and further knowledge of the UFO subject and other subjects.

And so you're doing all that and you're up there in the middle of, yet again, ground zero. I think it's appropriate to use that term. So I really appreciate you. And I thank you for all that you're doing right now. There aren't easy times to be doing it, man. So you too, my friend. Thank you.

You're in the Trailblazing Club. Thanks, man. My first club I've ever been initiated into. I'm very honored about that. Well, Micah, I have to say the same. I respect the work you do. I'm sure for anyone new to your work tonight, they're now going to be checking up on everything you're doing.

This was a fascinating conversation. Open my mind to how far we can actually go back with this topic, pre-Eufology, as it were. So I have to say, be safe. be healthy and brother i will see you on the other side when this is all over just imagine how much revelations we're going to have once we're able to go outside and look at the sky again i'm i'm excited i can't wait you tell leslie and pete we got a breakfast date it is a date all right my man thank you for joining us on somewhere in the skies and we will talk

soon my pleasure brother somewhere in the skies is produced by third kind productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network. To learn more, visit Entertainment One Podcast.com.