Somewhere in the Skies - Nick Redfern: The Roswell UFO Conspiracy

Episode Date: May 29, 2017

On episode 07 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan speaks with author and researcher, Nick Redfern.  In 2005, a book hit the shelves that completely shattered the Roswell UFO incident into pieces, and caused quite a stir in the UFO community and beyond. Rather than a crashed UFO piloted by alien beings, a new theory was brought to the table: a highly confidential, U.S. government-sanctioned program to conduct medical experiments on handicapped, disfigured, and diseased Japanese POWs, exploited as "expendable" victims by their captors and flown at high altitudes in advanced balloons and possible aircraft over the New Mexico desert. That book was Bodysnatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story. Now, author, Nick Redfern, has stirred the pot once more expanding on the information in a follow-up book, The Roswell UFO Conspiracy: Exposing a Shocking and Sinister Secret. Ryan speaks with Redfern about the new information he's uncovered concerning his original theories on what crashed in 1947, and who may have been responsible. As we head toward the 70th anniversary, is it possible that the most famous UFO incident of all time may, in fact, have had nothing to do with UFOs and aliens at all? Guest Bio: Nick Redfern is the author of more than forty books. They include Men in Black; Women in Black; and 365 Days of UFOs. Nick has appeared on many TV shows, including the BBC’s Out of This World; the SyFy Channel’s Proof Positive; the History Channel’s Monster Quest, America’s Book of Secrets, Ancient Aliens UFO Hunters, the National Geographic Channel’s Paranatural, and MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann. He can be contacted Here. Guest and Topic Suggestions: [e-mail] Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Ryan's Book in paperback and Ebook: Here Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan Sprague. Headline edition, July 8, 1947. The Army Air Force has announced that a flying disk has been found and is now in the possession of the Army. Army officers say the missile found sometime last week, has been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico, and sent to Right Field, Ohio for further inspections. Colonel William Blanchard of the Roswell Air Base refuses to give details of what the flying disc looks like. In Fort Worth, Texas, where the object was first sent, Brigadier General Roger Ramey says that it is being shipped by air

to the AAF Research Center at Wrightfield, Ohio. The disc also appeared too flimsy to carry a man. I got a letter from 13-year-old Ryan from Belfast. Now, Ryan, if you're out in the crowd tonight, here's the answer to your question. No. As far as I know, an alien spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

If the United States Air Force did recover alien bodies, they didn't tell me about it either, and I want to know. We're confident once the report is out and digested by the public that this will be the final word on the Roswell incident. The conclusion of the first report left no doubt that what was recovered near Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947 was debris from a formerly top secret Army Air Force. Force's research project, code name Mogul. Mogul was an attempt to acoustically detect Soviet nuclear blast and ballistic missile launches. In 1947, it was the misidentification of these

radar reflectors that is most likely the famous flying disc. The final voice you heard was that of Colonel John Haynes of the U.S. Air Force in a press conference given at the Pentagon on June 24th, 1997. In this briefing, Colonel Haynes gave what the Air Force considered the final determination on what crashed in the deserts of Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. After decades of first-hand witness testimony and endless theories on what happened that night, it became official that Project Mogul was to blame. But the public was not convinced. Countless inaccuracies rose from the Air Force final report,

and the UFO enthusiasts remain steadfast that what crashed was and remains in alien craft with alien occupants aboard. But in 2005, a book was released that brought forth a new theory far more complex than crashed UFOs or weather balloons. The book in question, Body Snatchers in the Desert,

contemplated a highly confidential U.S. government-sanctioned program to conduct medical experiments on handicapped, disfigured, and diseased Japanese POWs, exploited as expendable victims by their captors, and flown at high altitudes in advanced balloons and possible aircraft. When one of these missions failed and crashed to the ground, the Roswell incident may have seemingly been born. Today, I speak with Nick Redfern, the author of over 40 books on a wide range,

range of topics, both body snatchers in the desert and a new follow-up book, The Roswell UFO conspiracy. Expanding on his original theories in the Roswell UFO conspiracy, Redfern brings forth more credible information and individuals to back up his ambitious claims and sheds a whole new light, though rather dark, on the entire Roswell controversy. Could the most famous UFO event in modern history have been a sinister? top secret project gone awry? And if so, does this shatter the entire UFO mythos

that has wrapped itself around this case for over seven decades? These questions, and many more, are laid out with today's guest. So, without further ado, let's get to our interview with Nick Redfern. All right, guys, today I am here with Nick Redfern. I have been following this man's work for so long. my library here at home consists of his name. He is one of the hardest working people I know out there in Uphology and everything in between. So, Nick, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies today. Thanks, having me up. Yeah, of course. The reason I'm having you

on today is because we have the 70th anniversary of the Roswell incident coming up in July. And, you know, there have been so many explanations given as to what happened in Roswell in 1947. But you truly took that ball and ran with it with your new book that will get to shortly. But I want to start with your first book on this topic, if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've heard many explanations about what crashed in 1947. But none is controversial, I would say, and is scrutinized by the UFO community is what you brought forward. in 2005. So for those who may not be familiar with your first book on the Roswell case,

can you tell us a little about body snatchers in the desert? Yeah, well, this was basically based around, was in the medical, polluted way in which I got into, you know, good involved, man, in some case, going on. And in the same way, the same way that that hindsight is over, because lifting body cut type of posy type, everybody knows that they point out in the new book, there are so controversial. Right, right. And in the new book, the Roswell UFO conspiracy, exposing a shocking and sinister secret. This is, like you mentioned, a follow-up where you get more in depth. You bring these people forward more than you did before.

Could you give us sort of the impetus of why you wanted to do this follow-up book and what new information we can glean from these scenarios that you've brought forward? Well, yeah, there are a couple of reasons why I wanted to write the book. One was because, you know, the book came out, body snatches came out in two, So we're talking 12 years ago. I was able to get a lot more material. Body snatches came out. And I wanted to sort of long before me of this sort of people used Leonard Strings in 1990

and published it in 1991. In 1997, Popular Mechanics Magazine published an article, Japanese, Japanese, using these experiments. I go through all my book, not only before, before my book was patient where, regardless of whether people accept the reason why people kind of tied it to me. Right, well, let's break down that idea of bodies being found. This has always been one of the most controversial aspects of the case. Many first-hand, second-hand, third-hand witnesses have said they saw, you know, mangled bodies that looked like they'd been deformed or destroyed in this crash.

So in terms of these high-altitude experiments that you said about Japanese people, Where did this information actually come from, Nick? Well, what happened was, and this is what I talk about in the new book, it's a little bit convoluted story, so I'll keep it kind of brief rather than sort of ramble on. But in 1998, I wrote a book called The Act. A lot of those files concerned UFO scientists, through Simon and Shuster, who were the best. And, you know, it got quite a bit of life. I was living in the UK at the time.

And it came from an elderly woman who said she was back in the 1940. She wouldn't put, it was, you know, back in the best. And I said, well, you know, I live in England. So it's kind of tough if you're not willing to put it in paper, not willing to talk on the phone. You know, it was early years of internet, and she wasn't on the internet. And so it kind of stalled.

But then when I moved to the US in 2001, actually by then living in... I came over, evancies then. But we sat down, she told me this story where a lot of, you know, radiation has an effect on the human body and so on. Again, bear in mind, you know, the 40s was when a lot of this research was going on and, you know, solved as far as, you know, things like high altitude, flight, radiation exposure, that kind of thing. And she told me that on several usual bodies, or unusual looking bodies, you know, headbones,

and used in, you know, she told the story, but, I mean, I'm not exaggerating when I say, you know, she was, I said to, well, you know, this isn't in the book. I never was able to, all knew each other, but worked in this. particular field and had knowledge of it. Granted, it's Speculpt 1,001. So random, who now runs the anomalous, but at the time he was working on a new project of book. And he pitched the idea, too, that had I not written the book? Oh, yeah. And we've heard that random chance aspect with this case more than any.

I mean, most of us wouldn't even know about the case if, you know, Jesse Marcel Jr. Didn't happen to run into Stenton Friedman. So, I mean, it's incredible how what has come forward about this case. clearly having it have happened 70 years ago we have very few individuals still alive to talk about it now there are uh there's files nick that you brought forward in this new book that were revealed in the 90s could you tell us about these missing files that were um about the rosmo base and what these consisted of well yeah really 1993 and what happened was that the then congressman of new mexico He wasn't sort of reacted what passionate, and they pretty much were any files that they might have.

And that included everybody. It came up other than the one or two Scrapamation Act that, to be none. They initiated their own, included that what came, essentially monitoring for Soviet atomic bomb explosions. You know, they'd fly high and that they could detese Soviets. It had actually messages. Now, messages from the base for that six-year period, one could figure out the amounts of files. I point out in the book, it gives, you know, and somebody quickly are gone. But as I point out in the book, 45, 46,

now what's interesting as in a one, point out, you could make all the files from 45 and 46. But if, as the people I interviewed, said when you follow you, but when you say that it's actually the files from 45 to 50, then it actually presents like a... Exactly, yeah. And in terms of that, the secret experiments, could you tell us, Nick, these two individuals, Sheridan Cavett and Bill Rickett, how did they fit into this story of the secret experimentation aspect?

The most intriguing characters in the Roswell story. You know, the main went to the local police and in no time that at one point, after Marcel had gone back, Cavett and Rickett went out and then reported a change of some sort of vehicle. Over the years, Rick about his knowledge of Roswell and all careful not to bring up the issue of bodies. And when it was brought up, interviewed by the Air Force, as part of it. its investigation into the the mogul report, and in a huge Air Force report, which runs to about a thousand

a million, and the interview is, you know, you could probably put it on the front seat if you folded it up, you know. The balloons were massive. They were like gigantic massive feel. I don't have any of that. Even when he was speaking, he would not say and find anything at all relative. What they felt was the best, and honestly

did, would not even endorse that. No, sorry, it doesn't make any sense. Right. Everybody else talking in the 90s, that Cavett refused pain medicine because he was fear of something, you know, in sort of like a foggy, he was worried or scared, actually, that he might say, you know, you think of something in the 90s to... Wow, that is, uh, that is dedication beyond anything I can imagine. And it's very telling as well.

In terms of that, Nick, there was also a Australian informant who shared what he knew about these experiments in Roswell that you put in the book. Could you tell us a little about this individual? Yeah, well, this, what happened? was that, again, to give you like a timeline, the manuscript of body snatches in the desert was handed over to Simon and Schuster. Simon and Schuster, in fact, I don't think anybody in euphology apart from, you know, sort of unbeknownst to me before, I think it was, before intelligence, specifically MI5, and MI5 is the British equivalent, what he knew about Roswell, which had actually

come from, interestingly enough, files that MI5 had on the case. So that kind of suggests that maybe they were sort of given to me way back on in New Mexico, which involved these gigantic some cases that these lifting body from the historical record that animals, small animals like mice and rats were flown in some of these balloon flights. In other cases, they even used larger animals like apes. Doing those experiments, they crossed the line, started using human subjects. But of course, the problem was, volunteer. No one's going to volunteer. Want volunteers. story. So what they decided from wouldn't be missed, you know,

psychological illnesses, you know, physical handicaps were sort of, people didn't want to talk about it, you know, and placed in hospital took a number of people and used them in Guinea Peak, the one that came down on the ranch. And that kind of makes sense because

everybody who's dug into Roswell deep by Keith Source was that whatever this calamity was that kind of happened high in the sky, it resulted in the explosion. So when I say a balloon, you know, I'm not talking about like a 30-foot kind of thing, we're talking like a giant balloon. Then you have all this raining down like, you know, you've got the weight of the vehicle slamming it down vertically into the ground. Then you have very light coming down.

It's just light anyway. So it would clearly have come down at a somewhat different. At the one location went out, you have this huge gigantic balloons of weight and trajectory, you know, when you've got a craft versus balloon wreckage. Right. And then, of course, what Keith's source said that one of these survived. And also, you know, the UFO side of things, everybody pretty much, again, that one of the people happened was that when body snatches came at some point after that, Keith read the book. And he was like, well, you know, this sat, you know, a year before. And the ones I interviewed, had read something that was sort of then developed into going up on that story.

Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about that survivor aspect, Nick. I mean, in the new book as well, you bring forth the work of Kathy Kasten, a UFO researcher, and that location being Fort Stanton, this was extremely compelling. And while you drew many connections, this was the most telling for me. Could you tell us a little about Kathy and her work in this case? Yeah, well, when Body Snatchers in the Desert came out in 2005, and which I get, you know, I knew what it was going to happen,

But I mean, I'm not someone who, you know, sort of war me. You know, that's not my character. You know, if I find something I think is important to get out, I put it out. And, you know, what the cons – a lot of people in not just euphology, but particularly in the Roswell field, read the book. And that sort of months and months of debate and comments and posts on UFO update, you know, I'd wake up every morning and after breakfast, you know, I'd log on and there'd be like 20 more comments. Yeah. And there's a lot from people. people like David Rudy. And some of the comments and posts were quite rational. You know, I did my best to us.

And yeah, that they got like, my response to them was like the middle finger, you know. I just ranted at them. They ranted at me, I ranted back. For a while. And see, one of them, someone who was quite in that conversation that unknowingly to me, that Kathy, as far back as 2001, had been following this Japanese. angle of Roswell and the sort of human ex-in next couple of years being published. And we used to chat a lot and, you know, send... Fortunately, Kathy died at the age of 72 in 2012. Before she died, she sent me quite a bit of stuff and said, you know, if you want to use

this, when she died, her family got in touch and basically because they knew we were friends, they offered to send me and allow me to use Kathy's files. And, I mean, literally, what happens is mind control research. to be a lot of findings and discoveries on the case, which I'd never seen before, but which were all relevant. For example, she had a number of sources who claimed to know what had happened, critically injured. Now everything came down, a critically injured state,

told her that the ones who were killed on impact, the bodies were taken back to Roswell to try and figure out what went wrong, or to preserve them so that down the line they could be examined more fully. These files suggested that the one survivor was taken to a place called Fort Stanton. It's an old military base. It actually goes back to the 1800s. While it's not, you know, actually no distance at all from the ranch. Now, what's particularly intriguing is enemy aliens, Japanese enemy aliens, as they were known in the Second World War, you know, people who were Japanese, but who lived in the U.S., and those people were put into kind of like detention camps.

On top of that, Fort Stanton was also, at one point, home to physically handicapped and psychologically affected people as well. So, you know, you have psychologically affected people, Japanese people. And is, as I said, you know, stone boats, you know, was no distance away at all. And the most outrageous, I mean, it is outrageous, but, you know, if it's true, and to hush it all up, he was actually buried. His body was buried in the huge cemetery, which overlooks. And, you know, many people died. there's more than a thousand graves in that cemetery. So, you know, there's a, but I mean, you know, no one can kind of, you know,

go around digging up all the, all the graves. Right. That's not going to work. But, I mean, it was a fascinating story. And, and again, it wasn't just sort of, to me, wasn't just important because it was a fascinating story, but it was because Kathy had uncovered this extensive amount of material. And this was all done without her telling anybody in the,

community for the most part and yet what I know one of the people that Kathy focused on significantly was a man named Randall Lovelace who went on to and Kathy had a number of sources why he died and you know

what had caused the injuries that Lovelace was within like how he's opinion such as it could be you know under the search but Lovelace was someone who was based you know no distance away someone who was at the forefront of early research you know, but what's interesting is that there've been rumors over the years of a love lace

can again, you know, cat, as to what she'd found, in the lines, future problems, what we can, and then, of course, integral to nearly all of those issues. All of this, Nick, all of this is extremely compelling, and personally, I feel very logical. But there are those who, I'm sure you've heard from, and within the UFO community, who will argue the artifacts that were found at the crash site. hyroglyphics, some sort of alien writing found on this, or even the memory foil that many say that they found on the site. Could you tell us a little about these artifacts and not your argument, but the controversy surrounding what you've brought forward and the original testimony? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, one of the main issues that people talk about is, you know, this, you know, on it, we've made it for them for no particular reason.

They put a lot of interest in the whole could it be alien writing? you know, if aliens crashed, it was Japanese writing. And I said, well, you know, how does that equate? Wouldn't they not realize that? And Cigley said, well, it's kind of almost like descending up, insulting way, but basically saying that, well, people who lived out there wouldn't have known what Japanese were, whether or not that's true. Would there be Japanese?

They basically gave me an answer, kind of similar. You know, in the second word, Germans or whatever, you know, they would take chalk on board the plane, and they'd write, take that ad off on the, on the bomb, you know what I mean, that kind of thing. And the kind of trademark messages, see what I mean? So, you know, you could, I mean, well, no, it was, you know, it is a fact that when bombs were dropped in the war, you know, the guys on the planes did put, we write little messages, you know,

or they'd put them, you know, that kind of thing. German, when you wadded it up, it would sort of spring. For a lot of people, is the one thing more than anything else that really kind of, that what came down, you know, was some, what it was. 46, 40, by the military in New Mexico, by early 40s, laminated with aluminum paper, and you wadded up in your hand, it stays as like a ball of paper, you know. But they had this sort of rigid coating on them.

When they were, when they wadded together, they did spring back. Now, granted, they didn't crease at the Roswell wreckage, its original shape, because it was so springy because of the aluminum. Co. Whether or not that explains it, you know, when you look back that some of this testimony came from 30 or 40 years later, and they remembered wadding this up and then it popping open, do with me or not. But it is interesting that those polythene aluminium laminated. So if anybody had seen that these aluminum, not only the military, would not be familiar with, you know, you could make that argument that that might explain the legends, you know, of the memory metal of 45 and 46. It was, it was know after. See, that's really interesting, Nick. I mean, we always hear extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary answers. And it seems that with all of this, you've been able to cover every aspect of what it possibly could be.

And the fact that, let's say hypothetically, this had nothing to do with aliens in ET presence crashing on the planet. Where do you think with all this information that you've been given, that you've brought forward, forward, where do you think this leaves us today in terms of the Roswell incident? One of the most prominent cases we have to depend on in uphology. There are a lot of potential, you know, even I have to admit, because we don't have solid proof. We don't have proof that it was a UFO. And even by the Air Force's admission,

they've never found a single file to suggest it was a mogul balloon, any particular theory. But it was proved, and Roswell, as a UFO event did collapse, I think it would have a major effect on uphology. And as I see, that's euphology's own fault. And the reason why I call it a fault is because I think Roswell should always have been treated,

excuse me, as just another case, number one events upon which much of the whole UFO history and lad is, you know, you put all your, you know, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, that kind of thing. move tomorrow that say the Socorro case in 1964, uphology wouldn't collapse. Prominence would say, well, there's still plenty of other good abductions. But if Roswell collapses,

and because it's been so tied to things like MJ12, Area 51, back engineering, you know, dead aliens are right, patterns, lapses as a UFO of an infology and crash. Roswell was just considered just another case. But Uphology, I think, made a mistake, a number one case, because when you have a number one case, the stakes are really high if something goes wrong, you know. So I think that be, I wouldn't say it'd be bleak to think

it might push people more down away from the idea of, well, if Roswell wasn't a nuts and bolts UFO after all, maybe the nuts and bolts angle isn't the one we should be following. And I think it could sort of push things more down. You know, the path of people like John Keel and Jack Vallet went down, where you're dealing with paranormal based, you know. But I really don't. changing their minds because it would be such a situation that they wouldn't want to deal with

and so consciously or they will continue to deny it. We like with any, as I said, we don't have any proof. We have, you know, supposition. We have the, we don't have, you know, the smoking gun documents. Although some people say we do, and they talk about the so-called Ramey memo, which at Fort Worth, but he's holding this bit of paper and part of it is sort of, well, actually most of it is, technology, it is clear what the words are, but the most controversial aspect is one little section. Now, follow the UFO. And maybe that is what, you know, exactly what happened. I, you know,

I cannot prove otherwise. But what I point out in the book, you know, if the right is correct, victims of the wreck, and it was a UFO that the memo would have said, not the victims of the point in the book, the trust has like a human emotional tone to it, you know what I mean? Exactly, yes. And, you know, victims kind of makes, you know, as if they were victims, they were victims. I don't mean like the victims of just a crash, but victims in the sense that they were used. You don't sort of see much emotion used in government documents. You know, it's just straight to the point.

To me, does put, as I said, this emotional human quality on the nature of what's still wide open as to what could happen or what did happen. But it's whether or not we find a smoking gun. dictate Roswell, Nick thinks this, Stan thinks that, Kevin thinks this, the situation that we never solve it and he gets up further and further down the line and it becomes like a euphological Jack the Ripper. You know, it's an old mystery, fascinating story, but it's so long ago there's nothing we can do with it. So maybe one day something will surface and that would be my hope regardless of what the answer is. You know, I think we should all, I don't think any of us should be upholding belief systems when it comes to Roswell. We should all just be looking for the hard

fact. More people are going to be right and one more people are going to be wrong. And I would hope whatever they, whichever camp each of us fall in, okay, you know, it's this and or it's that. But don't get caught up in beliefs. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when it comes down to it, Nick, like you said, we're all searching for the truth. And with bringing these, these theories forward. We are, we have to admit that they are just theories, but if we don't come up with new theories, we're never going to get anywhere. So I think that's a very good point. We're all searching for the same thing, and that's the truth behind what happened in Roswell. Yeah, but emotions get involved, you know, and I mean, I mean, which is normal, you know, because, you know, none of us

are sort of, you know, emotion-free, robotic and ideas, so that will never go away. And I don't think to a degree it should go away. We're not trying. Nick, you are going to be attending the Roswell Festival on the 70th anniversary, am I correct? Yes, I'm going to be burned in effigy down the main street. I was just going to say, how are you feeling about that? Oh, I don't mind. I was there for the 60th anniversary. And like I said, you know, I'm not the sort of person who, you know, panics or worries about things like this. You know, I have a, I'm happy to format. You know, I'm happy to, you know, I'm happy to, you know, you

in one of you, in the sense that, again, regardless of whether that's good or bad, because I like to know, you know, where the community's head is at, you know, the collective, you know, I'm not some, I think it's important. I don't, but on the other hand, I don't care, you know, I'll just fight my position. You know, I don't lose sleep thinking, oh, if I write a book about Roswell as a secret experiment, are people going to stop booking me to speak of their conferences? My mind doesn't think like that. You know, I don't worry about those out of me, and I'll say, well, I'm skinny,

field and if you're going to go against the token, the people, you know, defend their term. Yeah. Well, and I mean, the fact that you are open to feedback is primarily the reason we have a follow-up to body snatchers. So I think that's a very good point. And I'm glad to see that that you take that, that you're open to that because many are not in this field.

So that's very... No, they're not. But minds are made up. And a mind made up is fine if you're on the right track. If you're on the wrong track, a mind made up. a mind made up is a disaster because you'll never... Yeah, very good point. Well, Nick, what's next on your path, my man?

What do you got going on? It seems like you're pumping a book out every day. We hear that cliche whenever someone brings up your name. But it's true. What comes next for you besides the 70th anniversary of Roswell? Well, actually, two very different books. I've got one coming out in September with Llewellyn called Shapeshifters, which is a study of, as a title suggests,

sort of shape-shifting creatures throughout history there on that, but also like Native American stories, right away through this year, being kind of like a Matrix world. Glenderman has narrated in the movies, you know, they almost have Matrix, you know, reality, made out into the real world's sports as well of...

Oh, very interesting. Yeah, the idea of thought form has always really been interesting to me, so I'm definitely looking forward to that. Well, Nick, the book is The Roswell UFO Conspiracy exposing a shocking and sinister secret. Where can we find the book and where can we find out everything you're up to? Well, I have a blog which I update most days called World of Whatever, and the address is Nick Redfern, R-T-E-A-N.

Nick Redfern from the new book, Roswell UFO Conspiracy, Bons and Noble stores, or also... Excellent, man. Well, you know, all things considered, if you survive this Roswell anniversary, I'd love to have you on again, my man. It's been an immense pleasure. Thank you so much for training me.

Yeah, I can let you know how it all went. Please do. Any updates would be great. Live tweet the event. All right. All right, cool. Thanks again, Nick. All right.

Thanks a lot, Ryan. That's it for this week's episode. Again, to read all of Nick Redfern's work, you can find him at nickredfernfortion.blogspot.com. As usual, if you haven't already, please consider rating and reviewing the show on iTunes. It makes the show more visible to gain new listeners. If you have a guest or topic suggestion,

reach me at Sprague at somewhere in the skies.com. Episodes can always be found in all formats, such as Stitcher, Google Play, iTunes, and YouTube over at somewhere in the skies.com. I'll see you next Monday when we go big, exploring UFOs over Texas with researcher Jane Kyle. It's going to be a hell of an interview. Have a great week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. This has been a third kind production. To learn more, visit thirdkind productions.com.