Somewhere in the Skies - OMNIBUS 01 | Nick Redfern: Roswell, Rendlesham & Russia

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

We've been going for over 400 episodes now with the main episodes of Somewhere in the Skies. Some of you have been here from the very beginning. Some met us halfway, and some are brand new. So I'm taking a page from the book of That UFO Podcast with our good friend, Andy McGrillen. And I've decided to do some Omnibus episodes that feature collected interviews with a singular return guest or themed collections. I thought this would be a good way to introduce new listeners to some of our fan-favorites and for a walk down memory lane for the veteran Somewhere in the Skies listeners out there. Today, you'll hear 3 different interviews we conducted with prolific author, Nick Redfern. You'll first hear his controversial research on what the Roswell UFO crash may have actually been. We then move to his equally controversial research on the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. And then we end with a fascinating in-person interview where Nick discusses UFOs and the Kremlin. Find Nick Redfern's books by CLICKING HERE Please take a moment to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple. Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Discord: https://discord.gg/NTkmuwyB4F Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ryansprague.bsky.social Twitter: https://twitter.com/SomewhereSkies Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somewhereskiespod/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Store: http://tee.pub/lic/ULZAy7IY12U Read Ryan’s articles at: https://medium.com/@ryan-sprague51 Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Copyright © 2025 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, Ryan here. We have been going for over 400 episodes now with the Summer in the Sky's podcast. Some of you have been there from the very beginning. Some of you met us halfway. And some of you are brand new, which is just so cool to me. So I'm taking a page from the book of That UFO podcast, hosted by our good friend Andy McGrillon. And I've decided to do some omnibus episodes that feature collected interviews with the singular return guest or themed collections.

I thought this would be a good way to introduce new listeners to some of our fan favorites. And for a walk-down memory lane for the veterans somewhere in the sky's listeners out there. Today, you'll hear three different interviews that we conducted with prolific author, Nick Redfern. You'll first hear his controversial research on what the Roswell UFO crash may have actually have been. We then move to his equally controversial research on the Rendezham Forest UFO incident. And then we end with a fascinating in-person interview where Nick discusses UFOs and the Kremlin. If you like these types of episodes, let me know who or what you would like next in our new Omnibus series. And again, special thanks to Andy over at That UFO podcast for letting me borrow his idea.

and be sure to subscribe to that UFO podcast wherever you get pods and on YouTube. But for now, here's our omnibus episode with Nick Redfern, covering UFOs, Roswell, Rendlesham, and Russia. Enjoy. You are now somewhere in the skies with your host, Ryan Spray. Headline edition, July 8, 1947. The Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disc has been found and is now in the possession. of the Army. Army officers say the missile found sometime last week, has been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico, and sent to Right Field, Ohio for further inspections.

Colonel William Blanchard of the Roswell Air Base refuses to give details of what the flying disc looks like. In Fort West Texas, where the object was first sent, Brigadier General Roger Ramey says that it is being shipped by air to the AAF Research Center at Rightfield, Ohio. The disc also appeared too flimsy to carry a man. I got a letter from 13-year-old Ryan from Belfast. Now, Ryan, if you're out in the crowd tonight, here's the answer to your question. No. As far as I know, an alien spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

If the United States Air Force did recover alien bodies, they didn't tell me about it either. And I want to know. We're confident once the report is out and digested by the public that this will be the final word on the Roswell incident. The conclusion of the first report left no doubt that what was recovered near Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947, was debris from a formerly top-secret Army Air Forces research project, code name Mogul. Mogul was an attempt to acoustically detect Soviet nuclear blast and ballistic missile launches. In 1947, it was the misidentification of these radar reflectors that is most likely the famous flying disc. The final voice you heard was that of Colonel John Haynes of the U.S. Air Force in a press conference given at the Pentagon on June 24, 1997. In this briefing, Colonel Haynes gave what the Air Force considered the final determination on what crashed in the deserts of Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

After decades of first-hand witness testimony and endless theories on what happened that night, it became official that Project Mogul was to blame. But the public was not convinced. Countless inaccuracies rose from the Air Force final report, and the UFO enthusiasts remained steadfast that what crashed was and remains in alien craft, with alien occupants aboard. But in 2005, a book was released. that brought forth a new theory far more complex than crashed UFOs or weather balloons.

The book in question, body snatchers in the desert, contemplated a highly confidential U.S. government-sanctioned program to conduct medical experiments on handicapped, disfigured, and diseased Japanese POWs, exploited as expendable victims by their captors, and flown at high altitudes in advanced balloons and possible aircraft. When one of these missions failed and crashed to the ground, the Roswell incident may have seemingly been born. Today, I speak with Nick Redfern, the author of over 40 books on a wide range of topics, both body snatchers in the desert, and a new follow-up book, The Roswell UFO Conspiracy. Expanding on his original theories in the Roswell UFO conspiracy, Redfern brings forth more credible information and individuals to back up his

ambitious claims and sheds a whole new light, though rather dark, on the entire Roswell controversy. Could the most famous UFO event in modern history have been a sinister, top-secret project gone awry? And if so, does this shatter the entire UFO mythos that has wrapped itself around this case for over seven decades. These questions, and many more, are laid out with today's guest. So, without further ado, let's get to our interview with Nick Redfern. All right, guys, today I am here with Nick Redfern. I have been following this man's work for so long.

Half of my library here at home consists of his name. He is one of the hardest working people I know out there in Uphology and everything in between. So Nick, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies today. Thanks having me up. Yeah, of course. The reason I'm having you on today is because we have the 70th anniversary of the Roswell incident coming up in July. And, you know, there have been so many explanations given as to what happened in Roswell in 1947. But you truly took that ball and ran with it with your new book that will get to shortly.

but I want to start with your first book on this topic, if that's okay with you. Yeah, we've heard many explanations about what crashed in 1947, but none is controversial, I would say, and is scrutinized by the UFO community is what you brought forward in 2005. So for those who may not be familiar with your first book on the Roswell case, can you tell us a little about body snatchers in the desert? Yeah, well, this was why in the new book. And basically, yes, going on, wide sands.

in scientists over because in the closing stages of the war, in knowledge for these little incidents with these flights in New Mexico, but one of them, everybody knows that the ranch had got there. Now, as I point out in the new book, there are cases so controversial because there are so many theories, but this is the one more than any other that I've spoke. Right, right. And in the new book, the Roswell UFO conspiracy,

exposing a shocking and sinister secret. This is, like you mentioned, a follow-up where you get more in depth. You bring these people forward, than you did before. Could you give us sort of the impetus of why you wanted to do this follow-up book and what new information we can glean from these scenarios that you've brought forward? Well, yeah, there are a couple of reasons why I wanted to write the book. One was because, you know, the book came out, body snatchers came out in 2005. So we're talking 12 years ago. And in that 12-year period, a lot more material to say, well, you know, this is a lot, or just flat out,

long before me of this sort of people used. Leonard Stringfield in 1994, he was given the story in 1990 and published it in 1991. In 1997, Popular Mechanics Magazine published an article, Human Bodies, using these experiments. My book, not only before, before my book was, so in other words, you know, it's a situation where Right, well, let's, let's break down that idea of bodies being found. This has always been one of the most controversial aspects of the case. Many first-hand, second-hand, third-hand witnesses have said they saw

mangled bodies that looked like they'd been deformed or destroyed in this crash. So in terms of these high-altitude experiments that you said about Japanese people, where did this information actually come from, Nick? Well, what happened was and this is what I talk about in the new book, it's a

little bit convoluted story, so I'll keep it kind of brief rather than sort of ramble on. But in 1990 I wrote a book called Simon and Shuster. And, you know, they, you know, I got quite a bit of, you know, I was living in the UK at the time. And it came from an elderly woman who said she worked at Oak Ridge back in the 1940s through the information with me.

Because she'd read the book, and she referenced Kagey. She wouldn't put to tell me it was, you know, back. And I said, well, you know, I live in England. So it's kind of tough if you're not willing to put it in paper, not willing to talk on the phone. You know, it was early years of Internet, and she wasn't on the internet. And so it kind of stalled.

But then when I moved to the US in 2001, actually by then living, I came over and I was over here, made it sort of the, she was in her sort of late 70s then. But we sat down, she told me this story about how, where a lot of research was done into,

like, for example, how, and so on. Again, bear in the mind, you know, of going on. And, you know, solved as far as radiation exposure, that kind of thing. And she told me that on several occasions, unusual bodies.

Others were Japanese people, and some of them were kept, you know, had guns, and used in. And I spoke to her, you know, she told the story, but, I mean, I'm not exaggerating when I say, you know, she was very concerned as to not just, you know, what should she actually knew three, never was able to build and acknowledge of it. Granted, it's speculation, but so, who now runs the anomalist, but at the time he was working on a new, project and he pitched the had I not written the book the FBI files random chance events more than anything else wow yeah and we we've heard that random chance aspect with this case more than any I mean most of us wouldn't even know about the case if you know Jesse Marcel Jr. didn't happen to run into Stenton Friedman so I mean it's incredible how what has come forward about this case

and clearly having it have happened 70 years ago we have very few individuals still alive to talk about it. Now, there are, there's files, Nick, that you brought forward in this new book that were revealed in the 90s. Could you tell us about these missing files that were about the Rosmo Base and what these consisted of? Well, really, 1993. And what happened was that the then congressman of New Mexico, by the, you know, the sincere, decided to look. That's exactly what that.

And they pretty much ordered every government. agency of over any files that they might have, and that included the air chain into Roswell. Now, nothing came up other than the one or two scraps of us anything. But during the course of the investigation, two interesting things happened to the files that they might have, which turned out actually to be none, they initiated their own investigation, and because it was one of these gigantic balloons for essentially monitoring for versions. You know, they'd fly in Mogul, which they thought was the answer in the Air Force, that all 40, Now, I mean, that's not, you know, rumor here, say, or can some messages from the base,

but when they spurned files that are kept shredded or just files were gone. So, you know, I point out in the book, it could have been 20 years ago, or it could have been, you know, the day behaves, you know, and somebody quickly grabbed them at the last minute. We just don't. UFO angle. Well, yeah, the files 45, 40s got there first. Talked about these events going on from 45 to about 49.

So, you know, as I point out, you could make, why pull the files from 45? and 46. I interviewed said when uphologists say, well, a missing, which when you say that it's actually the far from 45 to 50, then it actually presents like a... Exactly, yeah. And in terms of that, the secret experiments, could you tell us, Nick, these two individuals, Sheridan Cavett and Bill Rickett, how did they fit into this story of the secret experimentation aspect? The most intriguing character, Jesse Marcell, you know, the main military, Klee, strange wreckage, went to the local police, and in no time, you know, and they just went out there.

Marcel had gone back. Cavett and Rickett went out a couple of miles from the site where you have all this strange of some sort of vehicle. It kind of totally clamped off. He was almost like a deal of security relative to, more than Marcel, because he just, you know, all hitched, and then he drove back. In 1994, part of its investigation into the pot runs to about a thousand pages. I'm not kidding. And the interview is, you know, you could probably know. Yeah. The problem is that gigantic, organic balloon, he said, nope. He said, even Marcel.

Even when he was speaking, he just would not say any. Some people think is that the Air Force find anything at all relative to Roswell, but came up with what they felt in, honestly, would not even endorse that. He wouldn't even go as far as it doesn't make any sense. Right. Everybody else talked. Tony Brigalia, a risk in the 90s that can't. And because he was fearful that he might say something.

you know, in sort of like a foggy state, you know, on powerful pain meds. He was worried or scared, actually, that he might say something. You think of somebody who's in the 90s to say... Wow, that is dedication beyond anything I can imagine. And it's very telling as well. In terms of that, Nick, there was also an Australian informant who shared what he knew about these experiments in Roswell that you put in the book. Could you tell us a little about this individual?

Yeah, well, this... What happened was that, again, to give you like a timeline, the manuscript was handed over to happen was that because I was even writing the eight or nine months, I think it was, before British intelligence, specifically MI5, and MI5 is the British equivalent, I did in him what he knew about Roswell, which had actually come from that MI5 had,

that maybe they were sort of limited material on it, and to me, way back in 2001. And it basically involved, and he said, was that there were a lot of these in New Mexico, in 47, or in bodies attached to from the historical record that animals, small animals

like mice and rats were flown in some of these balloon flights. In other cases, they even used larger animals like apes started using. Problem was, how do you get people to do this to volunteer? No one's going to volunteer. They didn't want volunteers. So what they decided to do

reportedly was to asylums from hospital, psychological illness. People didn't want to talk about it, you know, and placed in hospital. Took a number of people and used them in Guinea Peak, the one that came down, almost like an identical story, two devices, like a balloon. And that kind of makes sense, because everybody who's dug into Roswell deeply, you know, believed by Keith's source, was that whatever this calamity was

that kind of happened high in the sky, it resulted in the explosion. So when I tell a balloon, you know, I'm not talking about talking like a giant. So what you have, then you have all this, which is much lighter, of course, raining down like snow from high above. But because, you know, you've got the weight of the vehicle slamming it down vertically into the ground, then you have, it's very light coming by the wind and the fact that it's just light anyway. So it would clearly have come down at a somewhat different. That's why at the one location where gigantic balloons is of weight and trajectory,

from the wind, you know, when you've got a craft versus balloon wreckage. And then, of course, possibly one survived. That's what Keith's source said that one of these survived. And also, you know, the UFO side of things, everybody pretty much, again, that one of the people, you know, there were a lot of happen was that when body snatchers came out in July, and he was like, well, you know, this actually sounds just like the story that I was given, sort of, you know, a year before. even points and the ones I interviewed, ethical files, which I include.

Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about that survivor aspect, Nick. I mean, in the new book as well, you bring forth the work of Kathy Kasten, a UFO researcher, and that location being Fort Stanton. This was extremely compelling, and while you drew many connections, this was the most telling for me. Could you tell us a little about Kathy and her work in this case? Yeah, well, when Body Snatchez-in-the-Dencers in the desert came,

out in 2005. I mean, I'd been a, and do what it was going to happen, but I mean, I'm not someone who, you know, sort of me, you know, that's not my character. You know, if I find something I think is important to get out, I put it in, not just euphology, but particularly in the Roswell field, read the book. And that sort of huge months and months of debate and comments and posts on UFO update, you know, I'd wake up every morning and after breakfast, you know, I'd log on, and there'll be like 20 more comments to reply to you. And there's a lot from people like David Rudiac. And some of the comments and, you know, I did my best to allude.

And yeah, that they got like, my response to them was like the middle finger, you know. I just ranted at them. They ranted at me, I ranted back. For a while, commenting one of them, Kathy was someone who was quite in for quite a long time, that unknowingly to me that Kathy, as far back as 2001, had been following this Japanese angle of Roswell and the sort of human experimentation angle. And she sent me over the next couple of years being published. We used to chat a lot and, you know, send each other stuff over. And unfortunately, Kathy died at the age of 72 in 2012. Now, before she died, she sent me quite a bit of

stuff and said, you know, if you want to use this, but when she died, her family got in touch, and basically because they knew we were friends, they offered to cells. And I mean, literally, what happened was this. And some of it had nothing to do with UFO. Some was on mind control research. There's a lot of findings and discoveries on the case, which I'd never seen before, but which were all relevant. For example, she had a number of sources who claimed to know what had happened, he critically injured. Now, you're critically injured. Now, you're a critically injured. States told her that the ones who were killed on impact, the bodies were taken back to Roswell, helps him to try and figure out what went wrong, or down the line they could be examined more.

The information suggested that the one survivor was taken to a place called Fort Stanton. Now, what's particularly interesting about Fort Stanton, it's an old military base that actually goes back to, while it's not, you know, within spitting distance, it's actually no distance at all from the ranch. Now, what's particularly intriguing is that during the enemy, aliens, Japanese enemy aliens, as they were known in the Second World War, you know, people who were Japanese, but who lived in the US, and those people were put into kind of like, you know, detention camps. On top of that, Fort Stanton was also at one point home to physically handicapped and psychologically affected people as well. So, you know, you have the physically handicapped

people, if you like, at Fortington is, as I said, you know, stonically injured. And the most outrageous, I mean, it is outrageous, but it's true, particularly injured, and that's to hush it all up. He was at, you know, many people died, and there's more than a thousand at cemetery. So, you know, there's a, but I mean, you know, no one can kind of, you know, go around digging up all the graves. Right. It's not going to work. But, I mean, it was a fascinating story.

And, and again, it wasn't just sort of, to me, it wasn't just important because it was a fascinating story. Kathy had uncovered this extensive amount of material It's all done without her telling anybody in the community for the most part And yet, very much what I know One of the people that the Kathy focused on significantly Was a man named Randall Lovelace who went on to And Kathy had a number of sources of military to understand You know what had caused me that Lovelace was within like our offer his opinion

But Lovelace was someone who was about someone who was at the forth, understanding the NASA. Over the years of a love again, you know, capping between the lines, name names, and, you know, people, but will never re-can see, you know, which is sort of integral to nearly all of those issues. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light,

and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is ours. It's just so beautiful.

On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials, no credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. All of this, Nick. All of this is extremely compelling, and personally I feel very logical. But there are those who I'm sure you've heard from, and within the UFO community, who will argue the artifacts that were found.

at the crash site, having hieroglyphics, some sort of alien writing found on this, or even the memory foil that many say that they found on the site. Could you tell us a little about these artifacts and not your argument, but the controversy surrounding what you brought forward and the original testimony? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, one of the main issues that people talk about is, you know, like it made it for them, like hieroglyphi. Justed then, well, well, you know, if aliens crashed to, said it was Japanese writing, and I said, well, you know, how does that equate?

Wouldn't they not realize that? And it's kind of almost like condescending, it was said to me like in a condescending, insulting way, but basically saying that, well, people who lived out there wouldn't have known what Japanese, whether or not that should be Japanese writing on some of these, but basically gave me an answer kind of identical, you know, in the Second World War, when Germans or whatever,

you know, if they would drop a bomb, before they drop it, you know, they would take, chalk on board the plane and they'd write, take that ad off on the bomb, you know what I mean, that kind of thing. And the people I spoke to basically said they were working, although they were brought over to work on these programs in New Mexico, they were still kind of trademark messages, you see what I mean? So, you know, you could, I mean, obviously the people, well, no, it was alien writing. But on the other hand, you know, it is a fact that when bombs were dropped in the war, you know, the guys on the planes did put,

we write little messages, you know, or they'd put into, you know, that kind of thing. It was a German, and they were building these balloon, these devices. Now, the other angle is the whole issue of the so-called, when you wadded it up. It is the one thing more than anything else that really kind of, that what came down, you know,

was some sort of, is another 46, 47 in New Mexico, things like that. They're laminated with aluminum. to laminated with aluminum, when you squashed them together, you know, if you took a sheet of paper and you wadded up in your hand, it stays as like a ball of paper, you know.

But the rigid explains it, you know, when you look 40 years later, and they remembered wadding with me or not, but it is interest, aluminium laminated balloon. So if anybody had seen typically a year or so late, only the military would not be familiar with this. You know, you could make that argument that that might explain the legends, you know,

of the men. See, that's really interesting, Nick. I mean, we always hear extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary answers. And it seems that with all of this, you've been able to cover every aspect of what it possibly could be. And the fact that, let's say hypothetically, this had nothing to do with aliens and ET presence crashing on the planet. Where do you think, with all this information that you've been given, that you've brought forward, where do you think this leaves us today in terms of the Roswell incident, one of the most prominent cases we have to depend on in uphology?

Well, I think, you know, there are a lot of that it's a theory or a concept because we don't have solid proof. We don't have proof that it was a UFO. They've never found a single file to suggest it was a mogul balloon. But if the entangle was proved and Roswell as a UFO event, did collapse, I think you would have a major effect on uphology. And as I see, that's euphology's own fault. And the reason why I call it a fault is because I think Roswell should always have been

treated as just another case. But what's happened is the number one event upon which much of the whole UFO history and loss, you know, it's like that old adage, you know, you put all your eggs in one basket and you drop the basket, everything goes with it. You know, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, that kind of thing. Move tomorrow, let's say the Socorro case in 1964, they're prominence, still plenty of other good abductions. But if Roswell collapses, and because it's been so tied to things like MJ12, Area 51,

back engineering, you know, dead aliens at Wright, Patterson, collapses as a UFO of anthology and crash u. If Roswell was just considered just another case, but uphology, I think, made a mistake, A number one case because when you have a number one case, the stakes are really high if something goes wrong, you know. So I think that be, I wouldn't say it'd be bleak, it might push people more down away from the idea of,

well, if Roswell wasn't a nuts and bolts UFO after all, maybe the nuts and bolts angle isn't the one we should be following. And I think it could sort of push things more down. You know, the path of people like John Keel and Jack Vallet went down, where you're dealing with something more paranormal-based, you know. But then on the other hand, they really don't see change in their minds because it would be such a shock.

It would be such a situation that they wouldn't want to deal with, and so they will continue to deny it. We don't have any proof. We have supposition. We don't have undocumented. Although some people say we do, and they talk about the so-called Ramey memo, you know, this out of Fort Worth,

but he's holding this bit of paper, and part of it is sort of, well, actually most of it is technology, the pictures being sort of expands, have been used to, some of it, you know, it is clear what the words are, but the most controversial aspect is one little section, follow the UFO, and maybe that is what, you know, exactly what happened. You know, I cannot prove otherwise,

but what I point out in the book, if the right is correct, also pointing the book, the tone to it. know what I mean? Exactly, yes. And, you know, victims kind of makes things of something. I don't mean like the victims of just a crash, but victims in the sense that they were used, you know, in, see much emotion used in, you know, it's just straight to the point these year or is that. To me, does put, as I said, this emotional human quality on the nature of whatever these entities were, you know.

So I think, I think Roswell is still wide open as to what could happen or what did happen. it's whether or not we find a smoking gun is going to dictate just going to be talking about Roswell, Nick thinks this, Stan thinks that, Kevin thinks this, case scenario, that could be the situation that we never solve it and it gets up further and further down the line and it becomes like a euphological Jack the Ripper. You know, it's an old mystery, fascinating story, but it's so long ago there's nothing we can do with it. So maybe one day something will surface and that would be be my hope, regardless of what the answer is. I think we should all, I don't think any of us

should be upholding people are going to be right and one more people are going to be wrong. And I would hope whatever they, whichever camp each of us fall in, stand up and say, okay, you know, it's this, but don't get caught up in Bally. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when it comes down to it, Nick, like you said, we're all searching for the truth. And with bringing these, these theories forward, we are, we have to admit that they are just theories. But if we don't come up with new theories, we're never going to get anywhere. So I think that's a very good point. We're all searching for the same thing, and that's the truth behind what happened in

Roswell. Yeah, but emotions get involved, you know, and I mean, I mean, which is normal, because, you know, none of us are sort of, you know, emotional. And I don't think to a degree, you know, that other scenarios, you know, we're not trying. Nick, you are going to be attending the Roswell Festival on the 70th anniversary. am I correct? Yes, I'm going to be burned in effigy down the main street. I was just going to say, how are you feeling about that?

Oh, I don't mind. I was there for the 60th anniversary. And like I said, you know, I'm not the sort of panic or worries about things like this. You know, I have a strong character, and I'm happy to format. You know, I'm happy to the sense that, you know, I like to know what people think of the theory, obviously. Again, regardless of whether that's good or, you know, where the community's head is at, you know, the collective head is at. In the sense that I'm always grateful, you know, when people, I think it's important. I don't, but on the other hand, you know, I'll just fight my position.

You know, I don't lose sleep thinking, oh, if I write a book about conferences, my mind doesn't think like that. You know, I don't worry about those kind of things or what are people going to say about me. People can say what the hell they like about. I'm skin in this field and if you're going to design five. So, you know, defend their turf. what it was that happened. Yeah. Well, and I mean, the fact that you are open to feedback is primarily the reason we have a follow-up to body snatchers. So I think that's a very good point.

And I'm glad to see that that you take that, that you're open to that, because many are not in this field. So that's very... No, they're not. But minds are made up, and a mind made up is fine if you're on the right track. If you're on the wrong track, a mind made up is a disaster because you'll never, ever go down... Yeah, very good point. Well, Nick, what's next on your path, my man? What do you got going on?

It seems like you're pumping a book out every day. We hear that cliche whenever someone brings up your name. But it's true. What comes next for you besides the 70th anniversary Roswell? Well, actually, two very different books. I've got one coming out in September with Llewellyn called Shapeshifters, which is a study of, as a title suggests, sort of shape-shifting creatures throughout history, mythology, folklore.

I mean, everybody thinks of chapters in there on that, but also, like, Native American story, things like this. Baskerville's not too far away, I guess, halfway through this year, about mysteries. And it's like a Matrix world where, you know, the agents, you know, things like that, toll ports as well of... Oh, very interesting. Yeah, the idea of thought form has always really been interesting to me, so I'm definitely looking forward to that. Well, Nick, the book is The Roswell UFO Conspiracy Exposing a Shocking and Sinister Secret. Where can we find the book and where can we find out everything you're up to? Well, I have a blog which I update most days called World of Whatever, and the address is Nick Redfern for calm,

the new book, Roswell UFO Conspiracy. You can get it on Amazon, and you can also order it through Barnes & Noble stores and UFO or also at Facebook. Excellent, man. Well, you know, all things considered, if you survive this Roswell anniversary, I'd love to have you on again, my man.

It's been an immense pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, I can let you know how it all went. Please do. Any updates would be great. Live tweet the event. All right. All right, thanks again, Nick.

That's it for this week's episode. Again, to read all of Nick Redfern's work, you can find him at nick Redfernfortion.com. As usual, if you haven't already, please consider rating and reviewing the show on iTunes. It makes the show more visible to gain new listeners. If you have a guest or topic suggestion, reach me at Sprague at somewhere in the skies.com. Episodes can always be found in all formats, such as Stitcher, Google Play, iTunes, and YouTube over at somewhere in the skies.com. I'll see you next Monday when we go big, exploring UFOs over Texas with researcher Jane Kyle. It's going to be a hell of an interview.

Have a great week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching. Somewhere in the Skies. Somewhere in the Skies is part of the Somewhere Podcast universe. Please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. To learn more about all of our shows, visit thespu.com. Greetings everyone, Ryan Sprague, our host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Skies podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create.

So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your somewhere in the sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies HQ and help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support and keep looking up. Today on the show, prolific author Nick Redfern returns to talk all about his latest book, the Rendlesham Forest UFO conspiracy, a close encounter exposed as a top secret government experiment.

This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's bread. Nick, thanks for joining me once again on Somewhere in the Skies. Absolutely. I think the last time we spoke was face-to-face actually in Michigan for the UFOCon. So I'm excited to catch you up, man. Yep, yep. And you had a controversial book come out around that time as you do today. So we're going to be talking today about the Rendell Schumforist UFO conspiracy, a close encounter exposed as a top secret government experiment. That subtitle, I think, is going to be the contention today with many people in the UFO field. But I'm really excited to talk to you about this one, man.

Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's what you seem to be good at. Yeah, absolutely. And this is definitely one of those cases where I think there is a wide open. field of alternative theories because just like most UFO cases, we don't have a solid definitive answer on what happened. And we are kind of left with, you know, what the majority think.

Roswell was aliens, Randolphin was aliens. But when you start to really look at these things and look at it with a fresh perspective, I think these theories you're bringing forward have a lot more truth to them than I think a lot of people are willing to accept as true believers of a E.T. kind, I would say. But before we even get to that, Nick, you're probably sick of answer in this question, but for some of my listeners who may not be too familiar with the Rendlesham case,

could you maybe give us kind of the, you know, the 101 rundown of what Rendlesham is and what the original event was all about? Well, it began to the United States. And so although a mission where you've got both sides, the UK and the U.S. in varying ways, to say, well, you know, something else happened on the third night and on a fourth night and there are stories about

over the Suffolk, Norfolk, and there were rumours of another experiment going on there as well on one of the same nights. So, admittedly, after 40 years, you know, there are some things we don't know. The case was almost unique because most UFO events, you know, if somebody sees something and they take a picture or they just see it and, you know, tell somebody, this is one of the reasons why It's really stuck in people's minds. And the fact that it's become known as like the British Roswell, not because anything crass. So that's essentially the story and what they eat as well in the woods.

So everything about it was sort of really weird and atmospheric. Right. Super trippy almost. And I mean, that kind of comes to the territory of Rendell Shum Forrest. So before we even dive into some of these theories on what could have landed there, if anything landed there, I know you've done a lot of research into Rendoshaum forest itself, with a lot of the folklore and history to this place.

And I was wondering, would you mind touching on kind of the stranger aspects of this forest before even dive into the event? One of them is sort of the people who are in World War, secretly invade the UK on fire as they started to get onto the beach. In 196, Oberimist, which hit it out of there as well. And also Mark O'Ne had a presence in the same. same area. Now, reality of it all, the cobra mist, shingle streets with the strange deaths, and all the various other radar programs and so on, and the Marconi company as well,

and all of these facilities, all of these classified programs, all took place less than 11 miles. So in other words, regular forests and something once happened there that was weird, this middle name, you know, going to the other side of it, which is more of a, supernatural side, I guess. There are legends of sort of like phantom black dogs, as they're known in the UK, sort of ghostly phantom black dogs roaming around the woods and large black panther type cats and ghostly figures. So everything about Rendellsham Forest is kind of weird. But for me, you know, the most important thing, I guess, in terms of the historical aspect. If it or not, the fact is that that entire area has been subjected to top secret.

I think that's an important thing when you look at the location and you look at the history. Say, well, you know, if they're four or five top run a similar program in relation to like a... Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and all birds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash special offer.

Right, right. And, you know, this idea that, you know, when you think of 11 miles here in America, that's not that far. So, I mean, there's so much evidence that this is an area where you would do these types of experiments. And one of the earlier ones you cover in the book is Edgewood Arsenal. This was really interesting. It's significance with Rendell Schult Forest and this idea of ball lightning. You know, one of these excuses we heard later on during Project Blue Book for many UFO sightings as well. So, yeah, would you mind kind of running us through this theory, Nick, of what ball lightning is, first of all?

because I still can't really wrap my head around it. And this idea of the Edgewood Arsenal, yeah. Well, I said it's kind of just like, imagine like a globe dies and giving off these sparks of light. Now, in the 1950s, but particularly so more in the 1960s, term, if this all went along at the Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland, that's where the name came from. And possibly one of the reasons why it was called that,

was because some of the scientists who worked on it 20 years earlier, they'd worked on some of the so-called paperclip, the scientist silver at the end of the Second World War. So a lot of controversial and top-secret research was going on at the Edgewood Arsenal. And as I said, the plan was to try and see if ball lightning could be weaponized, that's to say, could it be directed using technology, including laser beams, to direct ball lightning at the enemy. In other words, you know, you could do away with tanks and missiles.

You could literally use ball lightning and, you know, arguably create even more damage to the enemy. And this particular program went on for years. The Kugel Blitz one, by that name, began in 1965. And I've now got some files which show it was going through to the 1970s. Now, the reason why I mention this in the book is because what the guys out in Rendlesham Forest saw in Rentlesham Forest that night on the first night, some of the material that was described in the skies by the guys in the woods parallels what ball lightning is when you see it moving along. As I said, it's like a spherical ball anywhere from the size of like a soccer ball up to like a beach ball. maybe sometimes a little bit larger,

and it gives off these weird sparks and glowing particles. Now, what's intriguing is that that is exactly what Colonel Holt, who wrote the famous memo about what happened on. Bolt had to say, and the work being done at the Edgewood Arsenal, it sounds very much like that in December 1980, somebody had perfected of replicating or controlling and weaponising ball lightning and they were testing it out

over Randlesham Forest. Now, it gets more intriguing because the Edgewood Arsenal was also where a lot of early mind control similar to the CIA's M-K-U-RTRA program of the 1950s onward.

So when you've got a facility that is working to create ball lightning which in the sky kind of looks just like a UFO, and at the same place, they're also doing top secret research into MK Ultra-type investigations and experiments to manipulate the human mind, et cetera, et cetera,

as well. And the 1980, when it sounds very much like what the guy's responses were, you know, to see how they reacted to the idea, could these be UFOs, when actually it was a cold and weaponized ball lightning, mind alteration, and also with a third category, that of the use of sophisticated polygrams. Right, yeah, and we'll definitely get to that.

I do want to move back to the idea of using the mind with this, Nick. Now, we go from, okay, fine, ball lightning in the sky. This could be what Halt and the other officers witnessed. we've heard the audio tapes of them describing this. And you're right, it sounds, no pun intended, strikingly similar to this bald lightning. But then you get to this next level of mind alteration. We do know a lot of the officers said they felt like they were either, you know, going in slow motion, or they felt like they were almost in this, like, weird altered state. And some of the officers even said they felt like they were drug. And we moved to a different place.

that I know you've done a lot of research into, and that's Port and Down. So, yeah, I was wondering, could you, maybe we go from Ball Lightning to this next idea of now on the ground, where officers said this thing possibly landed, and other things happen. So what does Port and Down have to do with all of this? Research into MK. Ultra and Mind Manipulation, hallucinogenic, LSD, BZ, all these other mind-altering phenomena. The UK, of course, has always had a good relationship with the US, and when Port and Down decided in the 50s to get more and more involved in the field of things like LSD and how it could be used on personnel to see how the sheer extent that it could alter the mindset. Well, one of the things that they decided to do UK military personnel, what the response was. Now, you know, people have said to me, well, there's no way, you know, that the British government or the British military would do that.

But they actually did, and the files, some of the files at least, have now been declassified. And film footage was taken, which you can now actually see online. And basically what it was, they ran this experiment, scientists from forest, interestingly enough, you know, another forest, not too far from Port and Down. In this case, the guys were asked if they would be willing to go along with an experiment, but they didn't tell them anything about the experiment. They just said, you know, we're going to give you something, and we just want to see how you respond. And within minutes of being dosed with a small amount of LSD,

they started to, some of them were climbing trees, and some of them were just laughing. One guy in the footage looks like he's about to have a severe panic attack, and there's a female nurse hanging on to his wrist and trying to reassure him. And this demonstrated, you know, that the British government was quite willing. And some of the guys, you know, they were only sort of 20, 21. But for years later, it sort of stayed with them in mind and why I'm between what went on in Mendelham Forest.

We have some of the guys, as you said, you know, they weren't able to walk around properly. Some of them felt, you know, they were walking in like walking. water. There was sort of a lot of bright lights, you know, more visual than before, or they should be. And this was 1964. And if you Google British Army 1964, you'll find numerous websites about this. And one of them, it'll take you to YouTube where you can actually what of this experiment. But the important thing for me, you know, this 1964, that was only sort of 16 years before Rendelsham, British soldiers, battery Marines, were exposed to mind-altering phenomena in a forest and the military, the superior, so to speak. And there are rumors that the guys in Rundlesham Forest were also filmed by at least dogs.

one within 1980, is so close that I had to put it in the book. But I wasn't the only one to sort of look into the port and down angle. Another one of them, one of the most powerful and influential military, just in UFOs. But in mind, you know, he was retired by then, so he was kind of out of the, though, you know, back in the 70s he held this. But he heard rumors through his contacts in government that, yes, a team had been secretly brought in to Randallson Forest almost certainly the night before the series of events, so everything could be

set up, you know, late, deep in the woods, late at night, nobody would be around. He learned that, as I said, that in almost certainty, that had got up into Randallson Forest the night before everything was prepared along with the technology that was needed

for the holograms. And that might sound like a lot of things going on, but some of them wouldn't have been that difficult. you know, holograms can be projected quite easily. And, you know, and if your mind is already warped, that's going to make it even easier. And with the ball lightning as well, if you add that to it, you know, we know for sure that that program had been going on from 1965 and certainly through the 1970s.

So, in other words, the guys who are running this program were already primed, you know, to know what to do. Right. Yeah. And, you know, the word staged comes to mind a lot when it comes to this. A lot of the people felt like this was some sort of performance happening. Moving to the hologram thing, Nick, this, I don't know if this is just really good timing on your part. But within the last few weeks, I think it was, the Department of Defense and the Navy came forward and said they were looking into patents for plasma lasers to sort of, you know, for air defense purposes. shoot a hologram out there, the enemy will fire at that, and meanwhile, our plane will go away. And we know that in the past these things have been rumored as well, you know, shining holograms of God in the sky and whatnot.

So, yeah, what, was this really good timing on your part that your theory came forward the same time these articles started to come out? Or what are we dealing with here? This is insane. You know, all the old. But, you know, and I'm just, you know, but around, you know, so. So, you know, it's what's filled with weirdness. It wouldn't surprise me if somewhere there's a connection, you know, between coming out at broadly the same time. Yeah, and I mean, like you mentioned too, we've attempted these things in the past, right?

I mean, you came across some files and whatnot that stated, you know, we have tried to use this as a psychological warfare thing in the past, right? of the mind and staged events and absolutely believe that. Now, whether it is extraterrestrial or multidimensional or extra-dimensional or just something we cannot fathom what they are. I do believe there is a real UFO phenomenon. But what I think has happened is scientific agencies, military agencies, intelligence agencies have realized that, yes, phenomenon that we don't understand, but they can essentially,

or they decided at some point, probably in the 50s, 40s, 50s, they decided to sort of hijack the real phenomenon so they could use it as a means to their benefit, so to speak. So we'll be talking about creating UFO events to test mind-altering technology, see how the human mind response to this or to that, and then, you know, say, then the military can have a sort of a way out, by saying, oh, well, it was just UFOs. It was nothing to do with us.

So I think, you know, there has been this intriguing angle of government agencies knowing there's a real phenomenon, but also experimentation on people as well. Yeah, I think the government is very good at being opportunistic when it fits their, you know, their motives. And yeah, like you said, pushing that alien narrative,

even if that's not the source of what's going on, has probably been used a lot in the past. And the whole hologram thing, it's very fascinating to me, Nick, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I know some of my listeners have wondered as well. Holograms of the officers being possibly drugged and looking at these things in the forest is one thing. But what about catching these things on radar?

We know the radar operators were tracking these objects into Rendell Shum Forest long before it even arrived there. So, I mean, is this just a number? another whole part of this staged performance? Or, yeah, what are we dealing with when it comes to these things actually being tracked on radar? You know, he's sort of a beat. And he did a lot of expertise, you know, very good expertise in the field of Randallsham, which Ray very generously let me use in the book themselves in the book.

And it was after he and various other figures. that in 1991, two Department of Defense whistleblowers, and they said that they wanted to share with him the truth of what happened. It's important to know that Ray wasn't the only one. He was the first one to hear this story, but various researchers have followed this particular quotation from Ray when I interviewed him about this angle that concerns the hologram. And he said, I found it interesting that they,

that's the two whistleblowers, would mention Rendlesham at our meeting. They said there was a sense that this was maybe, in some sense, staged, or that some of the senior people there were more concerned with the reaction of the men, how they responded to the situation, rather than what was actually going on. And he said basically, he said that even if it was a type of hologram, they said it could interact with the environment.

The tree marks at the landing site were in, of that. But how can you have a projective thing like a hologram that also has material, physical, looked into this as well, was Jenny Randall's. And I'll just give you Jenny's words as well. She's a, for people who explain to her was, this is a device, this is her words now. This is a device which manipulates the subatomic basis of matter at a quantum level and builds a bridge between mind and physical substance. If I understand it correctly, he added, this supposedly stimulated the mind into having vivid hallucinations, but at the same time, creating physical effects in the real world, which could take on a semblance of the appearance of the hallucinated images.

So this sort of gets into, you know, sort of really, you know, scientific concepts, you know, when you start talking about quantum levels and things like this. But basically the idea, the theory that was given to all of these various pieces, approached by Departre that yes, it was holographic, but it had this sort of connection with a physical reality. In other words, you could be sort of given an image and it would actually have some sense of physicality to it as well. It wouldn't just be an energy. It would almost feel something that you could feel. Now, some people might say, well, that could be disinformation as a way to explain that, you know, to give an alternative theory and say, well, it really was alien.

you know. So you have to be very careful, and particularly you have to be very careful when you're dealing with whistleblowers because you don't know, you know, what their agenda really is. But what I would say, in some cases, you know, the people who are left them out that they asked me to, but there's no doubt the mid-90s, anthology, who were looking into Rendlesham, we hated to hide the fact that aliens really did land, you know. And if it was just that, you know, I'd say, well, you know, it could. be. But when you add the fact that components, we know that seeing sounds eerily like what was being tested at Edgewood, you know, you put all those different aspects together, then I think it still

sort of pushes it down the secret experiment angle. Absolutely. There's another aspect to this, and I was really interested to hear about this in the book. You bring up a guy named Ralph noise. Now, I recently interviewed Kevin Day, the radar operator during the Tick-Tac UFO event. And back in, I think it was 2009, he wrote a fictional book about the Tick-Tac event just to get it out there. And like, this is what I experienced and make of it what you will, but in a fictional context. And now I see this almost play out identical to something you found with this guy, Ralph, in terms of something he wrote. Would you mind maybe running us through a little bit of this and

what his book might represent? In the 70s, when it was became... Investigations in the 50s and 60s of UFOs, but he's interestingly off. He said he never saw anything... So in other words, you know, the story that's rather than, you know, paralleling what happened at Reynoldsham,

apart from one intriguing thing. And that is, in the novel, a top secret program and hallucinations. And again, it's being done to determine, you know, the effects on the military personnel. And when you put all of those pieces, those segments together, you know, you've got a guy who actually did work on a UFO program for the British Ministry Defence. And also he wrote this novel, which almost identical to what happened in Rendlesham, apart from the fact the imagery, you know, the so-called craft by imagery. and by like a superior technology,

which the government is trying to get its grips around. And I think, and a lot of researchers think, with hindsight, after they read the novel, is that Ralph Noyes knew exactly what happened at Randlesham Forest, but because, you know, he was an old man, he was on a military pension, he didn't want to go too far, you know, and come out in the world of fact as a whistleblower.

So he chose to tell, what he actually knew in the form of a novel in my book. I think, you know, if we ever do get the false noise as one of the key players in knowing what really happened. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, welcome to Uphology, right, Nick. I mean, it's always fiction with a little truth somewhere in the middle. Well, in terms of, let's go back to the witnesses for a moment. Now, I know you've spoken personally to John Burroughs, who a lot of our listeners know, received medical treatment from this event from the VA recently.

And then you have on the flip side, you have Jim Peniston, another person who claimed to have had a close encounter with the object itself. And they're on very different paths when it comes to what happened out there. But have either of these guys reached out to you and given their opinions on what you've brought forward here? Or university, operation, credible technology, which luckily isn't, such as, for example, weaponized and controllable lightning, you've got mind-altering technology, you've got sophisticated holograms. When you put all that together, what you remember, what I rely on

your own imagery, can you rely on your own memories when you were potentially messed around with? I mean, for example, by his own admission, you know, that the military used sodium pentothal on him, you know, the so-called truth drug. And, you know, this angle of drugs goes through the whole story, you know, whether it's like sodium pentothal, you know, to try and find out, for example, Penniston recalled in his mind. And then you've got the Port and Down connection. You've got the fact that Porton has had a connection back in the Cold War with Porton Down. That's the way I look at it. I think all the guys are completely honest. They reported it as I saw it, but when you're dealing with all this mind-altering phenomena and, you know, highly advanced technology, can you actually fully rely on your own memories, you know?

Right, yeah. And, well, you mention the word honesty, Nick, and whether you like him or not, he's forever attached to this event, and that's Larry Warren. Do you think any of your alternate theories make any of what he has said more reasonableness? or possible, or do you dismiss this guy outright like a lot of people have? Yeah, where does he play into this entire alternate explanation thing? Yeah. You know, I've known Larry. This was when there, with the book that he wrote with Peter Robbins, left him out in the summer of 1997, essentially sent them on like a tool, you know, because he didn't have any sense of, you know, you've got people, you have people who don't believe Larry's story. And then there's this sort of,

a grey area. I call it a grey area. The interesting things is that although over the years, Colonel Holtz, Charles Holt, didn't really have, you know, too much time for Larry, sort of say Larry's approach, Holtz, you know, did say on a number of occasions that he felt that Larry, whatever the truth was, had been, he had his mind in some way meddled with, and that was almost sort of the, you know, the exact words. Well, the reason why I mentioned this is because early, last year, I spoke at a conference down in Edinburgh, Texas. It's called the Outer the World Conference. It's on every year. And not only was I, one of the speakers down there, but Charles

Holt was as well. And we had a good time, you know, he's a nice guy laid back and, you know, chatty and funny. And we got talking about various aspects of Randall Schum, because we were there from like the Friday, or Thursday possibly, right through to the Monday. So we're all there sort of hanging out together for about four days. And I asked him, you know, what he thought about the old gruses surrounding his views and what Larry had said. He still felt that Larry had his mind messed with. So I find that interesting that, you know, you've got a lot of people in euphology who don't like Larry. And yet just a year ago, when I spoke a year ago, when I met Holt for the first time down in Edinburgh, Texas,

he was still saying that, well, you know, there is still something I think that... Choice hotels get you more of what you value. Here's a little tune to help you remember. Same drive, different day. Don't you wish you were getting away? Pack your bags and come on through. Texas, Ohio, Alaska, we're up there too. Comfort Inn.

It's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh. And free waffles are. yours to claim well i hope you like my little song book direct at storieshiltails dot com right and you know a lot of the uh i would say discounting of larry's story was always he was the only one to say that he saw alien beings in the forest and i mean you look at the cover of your book and boom there it is right there and you know it is possible that either hallucinogens or uh holograms or something had to do with that and you know

Larry did see what he thinks he saw. So, I mean, yeah, he is a very contentious person when it comes to this. Yeah, it would make sense. Yeah, I think one of the by euphology focusing more on that middle ground, you know, this hazy, weird, you know. Yeah, I would have to agree. It's always somewhere in between. And, I mean, someone who really looked at that, Nick, was Nick Pope, you know, former UFO desk person for the MOD.

He brought something interesting to the public, not to be. too long ago, and that was Project Condine. You know, basically the UK equivalent of, I guess, sort of like atyp here in the United States, where the British Defense Intelligence Agency, you know, for 97 to 2000, they looked into UFO reports. And if I'm not mistaken, I think they went back to Rendell Shum at one point in Project Condine. So what do you think this, this, your alternate theories, does this play into anything that Nick Pope is brought forward about the case, or have you spoken to him about what he feels after doing all this research in Dorendelsham? Where does he lay when it comes to these theories he brought forward?

What that began in the title was unidentified aerial phenomena in the UK air defense region. You know, it's like a typical kind of government's program title. An UFO in the document, you know, it keeps it away from the media and people in the Royal Air Force. He worked on RAID, Electronic Warfare. You know, he was somebody who was really in the prime place to look into this. Now, one of the angles of these plasmas that Condine, the Condyne project, looked into, was to see how, you know, it could actually be affected. You know, the human mind could be affected by some of these plasmas that the MOD was really interested in.

Now, this is a quote from Nick Pope in relation to the Condine report. And Nick said, and I'm quoted him directly here, one of the areas that will be most contentious relates to what the report refers to as plasma-related fields. Electronically charge atmospheric plasmas accredited with having given rise to some of the reports of Vash Triangular-shaped craft, while the interaction of such plasma fields

with the temporal lobes in the brain is cited as another reason. Now, this is where it gets important, another reason why people might feel they were having a strange experience, but strange experiences and plasmas when the condine report came out. Those were his exact word, like in 1980, that maybe the MOD, you know, didn't fully get a hold on it properly in the early 80s and brought it back again in the 90s and looking at plasmas. And like Nick Polk himself said, you know, as to,

but it may not. Right, right. And I think, you know, the important thing to remember, too, is, you know, while Condine might have looked back at Rendelsham, all the files on this case were actually never found when people tried to get, you know, Freedom of Information Act requests filed on this case. They just mysteriously disappeared. So, I mean, you've got that whole angle to it all as well. You can find the files like that in case it comes back. Right. And another example, Luschen Forest, there's a prison called Hollisley's

Bay and it's for younger offenders in loosenagenics into the woods. There was some concern that if the weather changed, the wind changed, the aerosol base to loosenagenics could actually head towards through the forests and head towards Hollisley Bay Prison. And there were rumors that the prison, Norton actually heard through some of his sources about that story, this prison angle and the evacuations. And again, the government didn't deny this happened. What they said was they couldn't find the prison governor's journal from that particular of Rendlesham, namely documentation. Right. Plausible deniability all the way. That's great, Nick. Well, I'm going to move to a few listener questions here with you. Michael on Facebook asks, given your research relating to the

potential non-extrrestrial cause of Roswell and Rendell. Two cases you've covered. Would you say that the government or military benefit from UFO mythology overall to keep secrets? And if so, in your opinion, can disclosure from the government actually ever be trusted? Well, that's what I think where we cannot trust and which ones are the fabricated ones for things like psychological warfare. You know, the more and more our technologies develop, the more and more difficult it becomes to differentiate between one the question as well. It's a very good point.

Most people think either disclosure's coming or it's not coming. Question. I mean, that's a very important point, the idea that can we actually trust disclosure if and when it comes? Disclosure is going to be something where, you know, well, we've seen UFOs in the skies and we think they're dangerous, et cetera, et cetera. And it could easily be sort of used as a means to take away. you know, more privacy and

etc., etc. In other words, yes, UFOs are a threat and so, you know, we need to do this and we need to do that to control you even more. You know, I think that is one of the disturbing aspects is that the UFO subject could be used

as a means to essentially bit by bits, you know, sort of be, so to speak. And we would not, I cannot say for sure, in some of these high profile cases that we all know about, I cannot say for sure, if they are real. Well, they're real in one sense, regardless,

but I mean, are they the fabricated UFO events? And that's where it kind of gets into a disturbing realm of manipulation and, you know, sort of having an effect on. Right. And then, I mean, you look at the overall picture. If any of the explanations you brought forward are true, and this was some sort of top secret experiment, to what ends?

And who's at the top kind of pulling the strings? downward and downward when it comes to this and why. So I think you're right. I think it is dark and disturbing. I mean, you look at things like the Patriot Act here in America or conspiracy theorists thinking that this global crisis we're dealing with is a way to finally microchip everybody. You know, you have these really far out there conspiracy theories about our government using crisis or events as an opportunity to get what they want out of it. So is this the same when it comes to certain UFO events, we'll probably never know. Well, we won't know unless, you know, somebody comes forward with hard evidence.

And I mean, more and more, I mean, it's called an iPhone. Good point. You know, you don't know, for example, all information, you know, when you've got your next checkup or whatever, it's got information on, for example, when you're going to go for, you know, ladies, have your oil changed in the card or whatever, you know, you know the the holiday the vacation to the Bahamas that you've just you just arranged you know all that is on that phone is when we there could have been somebody might have made an argument for you know for microchip think about the fact that we actually do have the equivalent it's not

literally you know a microchip but it's the equivalent of it and we most people can't put the thing down yeah and I think it's important too um let's if we go back to something like atyp, this aerial threat identification program with the Department of Defense. Luis Alizondo, the former head of the program, has even said, you know, we could care less if these UFOs were aliens. We were there to monitor if it was a potential threat to our skies and our national security. So, I mean, right there, you've got a very clear stance that even the program investigating UFOs here in America, this secret program, didn't care where they came from. Was it a threat?

And I think that's kind of the angle that this certain group is taking now in terms of looking at this phenomenon. You know, is this going to be a threat to us? How can we make our military stronger to fight back if we ever have to? So, yeah, you're right. There's so much politics and economics and beliefs that go into this quote unquote UFO phenomenon. and it's hard to tell up from down, left, from right. But, I mean, if we don't ask new questions like you have, we're just going to be stuck in the same rut like we have for 70-something years.

But, I mean, there are too many. Yeah, there is a huge difference between belief and proof for fact, and I think you're right. Belief often blinds a lot of people when it comes to this stuff, especially when you bring something forward like you have here. Well, this one is not so much a question, but a fact, which you might find interesting, the orphaness lighthouse that many said was the explanation

for what Halt was seen, is actually being scheduled for demolition after 220 years of functioning. Isn't that crazy? Maybe one or two people. Big lace. In a concise terms, that's the best way I can describe it. Yeah, I would have to agree with you.

Well, in terms of Rendlesham Nick and Roswell, two cases that you have clearly brought some controversial theories to, are there any other UFO cases that you'd like to really, you know, shake up and bring forth some new stuff? Anything you're working on in terms of these alternate explanations? Where would you like me to start? Oh, no. That's the perfect answer. At the 1970, on the edge of the Mississippi River fishing late at night, you know, on a Saturday night just hanging out, having a good time. And they saw this strange light coming towards them, the craft, and then it was followed by seeking to a nearby military base after and questioned all sorts of questions, you know, what did you see, etc., etc. It was almost as if the people who were going to interview them were primed and ready.

Now, what's particular Hickson and Parker, when they had experienced, a lot of people don't know this, but where they were abducted from and whoever they were abducted by was not too far from a place called Horn Island. And Horn Island in the 1950s was a place where a lot of the early hallucinogenic mind-altering technology was on Horn Island not too far. from where the two men were abducted. Now, what's particularly intriguing is Horn Island was cancelled for one particular reason, and that was because some of the experiments involved aerosol-based hallucinogenic, and they couldn't guarantee that the winds wouldn't blow in the wrong direction and head towards civilisation, so to speak, you know, populated areas. That sounds almost identical to what happened in Rendell Shumphorri.

with the prison, the young... So in other words, Parker's story, which... I feel like only you would be able to make a connection between Pascagoula and the Renderset Forest incident, Nick. That's amazing, wow. Well, actually, about Parkinx and Horn Island

was a guy named... I should say he was, he still is. A guy named Hank Al, who was one of the early MK Ultra guys, and controversial circumstances. He was either pushed about it now. Mistake. the Hickson Parker case and Brum,

well, I mean, if we've got time, you know. And the time frame and what Villis Bowes actually said versus what so many people in Euphology have said. Now, one of the people who spoke about this was a guy named Ned. He was someone who was connected to the US intelligence community. And before his death, Ned Lovic said that the Villisboas case was kind of like an M.K. Ultraprone. program and he claimed that the copter. And some people might laugh at that, but I mean, if you

actually read, Willis Boas's very own words, in his own words when he was interviewed, he said that the kind of like an elongated tie on top of it and something was going, making like a boop, whoop, whoop kind of noise. Which sounds to me just like a helicopter, mirror where you could see both sides. And they would use, for example, LSD. was taken on board a helicopter, hallucinogenics, and he may well have even had sex with the woman, you know, if she was a hooker together. And it sounds very much like a staged early, and a very, very early staged alien abduction event.

Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. You know, it just reminds me, I always go back to my theater roots, and who said it better than Shakespeare? All the world is a stage. Yeah, who cares? He was just happy to have some fun, you know. That's so true.

At that point, hey, who can argue? Yeah, let's be honest. But one other thing, I mean, one important thing, and I talk about this in the book as well, which is highly controversial program. He was friends with them, and he even had insiders who, you know, what was going on with MKL. Search into that field was, and some people think that he may actually even have been an abduction angle to try and create that. Yeah, I mean, you just keep tracing back further.

further and connecting these dots and yeah, it makes perfect sense you know, creating a mythology and using it to... People in euphology, but the fact they want to hear aliens, that's why this works so brilliant, you know,

is in my book. They want it to be extraterrestrial, but I mean, I can only present it as it is, you know, it's, you know, one of the most famous, actually. That's euphology, and hey man, it's not an easy road to take. So I respect you for doing that. I think the field needs

that desperately when it comes to this topic. The power of belief outweighs everything for some of these people. And I think without asking these questions, we're not going to get anywhere. And I know there's a lot of people who told me, like, you shouldn't be doing that interview.

He's just spreading more disinformation. But I argue to those listening to this and who told me not to do this interview, I think the disinformation comes from blind faith and belief in something that we have absolutely no definitive proof of. So, yeah, for anyone who does go with the alien theory on Rendlesham or any of these other things you've brought up, that's fine. That's perfectly fine.

But then you've got to think to yourself, maybe that's what they want it all along. Well, you know, I mean, I would, I mean, argument and a fight, you know, I don't care. And, I mean, you know, not to mean a lot of religion. and, hey, a dictionary, you know. Yeah, it's a really good point. Well, I mean, Nick, in terms of moving forward with all of this, you have a really good afterword in the book, which I don't want to give away here.

I think people should read it about your continued efforts in work into looking at Rendellsham. But what comes next? I know you're always working on something. So is there anything you can share with us on what we can expect next from you? Yeah, and how the legends and the myths of the Cracken developed.

And so anything that's sort of monstrous and living deep in the waters, that's what the Martians, old legends and stories and some of these strange photographs that NASA itself even have taken, you know, what looked kind of like the remnants and the, you know, sort of the crumbling remnants

of buildings on Mars. So it looks at the idea that possibly thousands of years ago, maybe hundreds of thousands of years ago, have been some sort of ancient race on Mars itself. So that one will be out in October. So it's Monsters of the Deep in August and then the Martians in October. Hey, I love it, man. There's two things we explore on this planet.

It's what's below us and what's above us, and you're covering both angles. So I absolutely love that. Before we go, Nick, where can we find the book and everything else you're up to? Amazon and you can get it in me at my blog. You know what I mean? Right. I don't have to be in there. Awesome.

Well, once again, the book is The Rendlesham Forest UFO conspiracy, and this has been Nick Redfern. Nick, thank you so much for joining me again on Somewhere in the Skies. All right. Thanks for that. Thanks. Yours too. What does Ravs stand for anyway?

To me, it's the remarkably advanced vehicle. Really? To me, it's the runway approved vehicle for its amazing style. What about remarkably adaptable vehicle? because of its versatile cargo space. Or really admired vehicle? Oh, or really awesome vehicle. It really is the recreational activity vehicle.

The stylish 2026 Toyota Rav4 Limited. What's your Rav for? Somewhere in the Skies is part of the Somewhere Podcast Universe. Please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. To learn more about all of our shows, visit the SPU.com. Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague, your host of Summer in the skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support

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You are now somewhere in the skies with your host, Ryan Spray. You've heard him on the show in the past, but this was personally my first time meeting him face to face. And I had the opportunity to sit down with him for an in-depth discussion about his book, Flying Saucers from the Kremlin. The book is a study of how and why Russian intelligence used the UFO phenomenon as a means to try to create fear, hysteria, and paranoia in the United States and beyond. From the Roswell Crash and MJ12 documents to Area 51 and the contactees of yesteryear, were and are UFO researchers being monitored by foreign and domestic intelligence agencies. And how far does the manipulation and meddling truly go with the UFO topic and beyond in today's internet age?

We dig deep into how and why Russia use the UFO phenomenon and keen interest in it as an advantageous weapon of belief. It's all here with Nick Redfern. All right guys, Ryan Sprague here once again for Somewhere in the Skies, and with me right now is a gentleman that I have been dying to meet for years now, and finally it's happened. That is Nick Redfern. Nick, how's it going, brother?

Hey, Ryan, it's good. Thanks, having a good time. made you want to write this book in the first place? Well, over the years, you know, I've got snippets here and there, and sometimes far more than snippets, of how the Russians were perceived by U.S. intelligence in the Cold War as trying to infiltrate the United States, and manipulating the mindset of the U.S. population, and to try and sort of seed and indoctrinate communism into the U.S. and find alternative ways to do it.

And some of those alternative ways actually involved flying saucers and UFOs in a really weird way. For example, in the early 1950s, we had the whole contact team movements, the Space Brothers, you know, these peace, you know, sort of friendly, peaceful, long-haired aliens,

kind of looking pretty much like us with a few slight differences, you know. and typically they would meet people out in desert locations, California, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah and so on. And, you know, it's sort of typical day of stud steel flying saucer comes down and, you know, this human-looking aliens come out and target certain people and say, you're going to help us on our road, if you like, to help your planet from destroying itself.

And so it was very much like a peaceful kind of approach. It wasn't abductions, you know, where people were traumatised and the memories are wiped and so on. And a lot of these people kind of went on that path, like probably the most famous one, George Adamski, whose first book came out, well, not his first book, but his first non-fiction book, if it was non-fiction. Yeah, that's so good to be. came out in 1953. Now, a lot of people don't know that Adamsky, he was heavily involved

in sort of spiritual mind-body-spirit stuff going way back to the 1930s and actually had written a couple of books as well in that kind of theme. Now, when he started to get involved in the UFO subject, most people probably don't know that he had a deep interest in communism

and in some of his early lectures he talked about how the aliens, the Space Brothers, were probably communists, which sounds like really weird and crazy. But that's what he said. He said that they were probably were communist,

and then people said, well, what do you think about that? And he said, well, he actually said communism is a good thing. And he said almost certainly Russia's going to rule the world for a thousand years and there's going to be peace throughout that period.

And he actually said that. That's actually recorded in the FBI's files on Adamski. Now, if Adamski was just someone lecturing to five people and somebody's dog, you know, on a Sunday afternoon in a local library, nobody would have cared if it was just him, you know, talking about this. But that's not what happened. His first book, Flying Sources have landed.

The first publication, the 125,000 copies were sold just about. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it was a huge seller. So you've got this. who's selling his book in six figures of sales and he's talking about how aliens are communists and communism is good. And that's why the FBI got involved

because their concern was that Adamsky, whether his claims were real or not, the FBI began to suspect that Adamsky was essentially spreading communism but doing so under a... a UFO banner and so you know he could kind of go under the radar oh I'm just you know doing a UFO

lecture if the FBI comes along which they actually did several times they visited him oh wow and um and so you know he his argument was well I'm just a UFO researcher well no actually you're not you're a UFO researcher talking to hundreds of thousands of people and spreading communism that was the FBI's approach you can understand and they actually

suspected that although he obviously wasn't a Russian spy quote they did they did suspect on many occasions that he was actually sort of hired or agreed to sort of further this communist angle and to you know to target the UFO community which was actually huge back then because I mean some of the conferences like at a giant rock in California where George Van Tassel would put on these contacti events. They had on weekend events of like 10 to 12,000 people.

Oh my God. Which, you know, and today we get like 3 or 400. Right. So back then, you have to sort of look at it for that perspective that, you know, 12,000 people in, say, 1953, 54, all of those people listening to communism's great, you know, peace-loving hippie types and all this kind of thing. and you can see the big difference between today and now back then uphology was seen not by euphologists but by the FBI and some of the agencies as being a potential community that was ripe for manipulation by the Russians and so the FBI watched Adamski for a long long time in around about 1982 they declassified about 75,000. pages of files of FBI files

on Adamski and by probably I think about 2,000 I think it was about 150 pages the final file so as far as we know at least was actually declassified about three months ago and that's just over 400 pages

a surveillance paper document on Adamski 400 pages long spanning about 1949 to about at the time of his death, 1967. So, you know, you can see how easily

and why the FBI had these concerns. Now, whether or not he actually was, you know, being used by the Russians as a means to try and spread communism, or was it just him saying it himself? We don't know. But the important thing is, the FBI did recognize his,

his ability to, if you like, real people in and say, this is good, that's bad. So that was really the kind of the start of it all. When US intelligence sort of started to get their head around, wow, you know, there are real UFOs up there, but there's a possibility using like psychological warfare and disinformation that the Russians are now using this real phenomenon as a means to kickstart communism within the UFO field,

which was important because at that time it said it was a huge movement. Yeah. You know, it wasn't. And they were talking the Cold War quite a bit. Yeah. And they tried a lot of other different obscure ways as well. You know, euphology was just one of us. Just one way.

Yeah. No, in terms of, you said, we're not just talking using psychological warfare in terms of false information or disinformation or just, you know, pure fantasy. We're talking also actual events. I mean, you even talk in the book about going back to Roswell being sort of, in Kenneth Arnold even, being a part of this manipulation that the Russians may have been doing on the US. Could you maybe touch on that?

Yeah, I mean, there's this, I mean, this is a very strange story concerning Roswell, you know, I mean, the idea that supposedly the Russians faked the Roswell event as a means to sort of create hysteria in the US. Now, it's a very bizarre and extremely controversial story, and it comes from a woman named Annie Jacobson, who wrote a book on Area 51 and various other books, and also on like Operation Paperclip when they bought the German scientists over at the end of the Second World War.

her area 51 book it's actually a really good book I mean it's a really thick book you know long book and it's filled with a lot of fascinating secret material on area 51 but it can say it contains this bizarre story of how supposedly Joseph Stalin did a deal with Joseph Mangelay who was one of the most deranged evil men who ever lived who did all these terrible experiments on people in the Second World War, the story is that supposedly Mengele had the ability to take a number of children and physically alter them,

to make them look like what we would call aliens today. As well as supposedly genetically or physically altering these children, the story is that the Horton brothers who were aviation people who designed a lot of futuristic, looking aircraft. Supposedly they were brought in to design the craft. And the plan, allegedly, was that this particular craft with a strange looking kids inside would be remotely piloted from Russia to the United States. And the stories, it was supposed to come down in like a highly populated part of the US. But as it was going over New Mexico, something went wrong. It may have been a storm or a lightning strike and it came down in Lincoln County, New Mexico, not too far from

the town of Roswell about an hour's drive. Hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast's Work Life. For over 20 years, Paylossity has been simplifying work with innovative solutions that teams love, like on-demand payment, which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features, which enables staff to clock in and out through their mobile device and numerous other cutting-edge solutions that simplify collaboration across HR, finance, and IT. Learn more about how Paylossity can help streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your organization at Paylossity.com slash simplified.

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little OCD. I like things neat. That's not OCD. I'm Howie Mandel, and I know this because I have OCD. Actual OCD causes relentless, unwanted thoughts? What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about no CD. No CD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for OCD. Their licensed therapists provide specialized therapy virtually,

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That's when I reach for fume, not to numb, not to chase a high, just to breathe, to choose. Fume works because it gives your hands something to do, your mind something to focus on, and your body a calming rhythm to return to. No nicotine, no vapor, just the power to interrupt a craving without relying on willpower alone. This isn't about quitting. It's about replacing, rewriting one breath at a time. go to tryfume.com slash acast that's try fum.com slash acast to start your journey today no smoke no vapor just the good habit and so in other words the plan to have the aircraft come down these altered kids come out and then everybody would say oh my god the martians are invading

and it would sort of be like a parallel to the orson wells story of war of the world you know, when people who listened to Awesome Wells' radio recording of this in 1939, people who turned on the radio halfway through or whatever thought the Martians really were invading. They didn't realize it was a radio show. So that was this, supposedly the inspiration for all this. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Now, the story gets sort of more controversial when, if you look at it, the idea of having,

one futuristic aircraft being remotely flown from all the way from Russia by another one, I don't think that kind of technology was around then, you know, just to strap four kids in a weird looking aircraft and then remotely piloted it all the way from Russia to the US. Now, on top of that, and this is actually in the book, it talks about how they found Russian writing inside. And that's probably the stories, you know, that that inspired the tales of like hieroglyphics on the...

Yeah. But, I mean, but any kind of experts on, you know, Russia and Russian language would quickly see that it was Russian. And the idea that the Russians, you know, were in cahoots with the aliens. And, I mean, the idea that, just the idea that they would put, you know, Russian writing, in the craft makes no sense if you're trying to pull it off as being extraterrestrial. That doesn't make much sense. So my view on all of this is that if you read Annie Jacobson's book, as I said, it's a really good book, and I would recommend it to everyone who wants to learn about Area 51.

It's not like a sensationalised book. It's a good, solid, non-fiction book. But it has this Roswell story inserted into it. and I think possibly people out at Area 51 working there now thought well you know this book's got a lot of top secret stuff you know that we don't want getting out how about we insert a really sensational story and have the press predominantly focusing on this controversial story about Roswell and the story that was about this you know this Russian Roswell thing was given to Annie Jacobson by a guy named Alfred O'Donnell who had ties to Area 51 and the military intelligence community and he provided that story. Now my view is that it was done deliberately

because it was such a sensationalised story I think the hope was that the media would forget most of the good stuff on Area 51 that was in the book and focus on Roswell. And for the most part, that's what happened. A lot of the coverage and publicity for the book focused on Roswell and this Russian story. So I think it was designed to veer the book away and the media away from the legitimate real material. So if there was any truth to it, you know, that would be like a psychological warfare manipulation involving a bogus story.

but also creating, you know, literally a craft and literally creating aliens in a very strange way. So I think, but again, much of the story falls down. So I actually think, you know, it really probably was a fabrication designed to, as I said, steer people away from what's actually going on Area 51 and having gotten all excited about this Russian story. And I'm sure from the Russians' perspective, they were probably quite happy, and they probably still are, to have people think or some people think that they were responsible for Roswell.

You know, it kind of beefs up their image from their... Absolutely. From their perspective, you know. Right, you know, and, you know, you take, for instance, you know, I'm not comparing all of Russia to terrorists. I'm not that. No, no. URA American to say something like that. But, you know, a terrorist group will take.

any opportunity to take the responsibility for something. You know, say some pissed off kid in America does a pipe bomb in the middle of Times Square in New York. Of course, some terrorist group is going to say,

we were responsible for that, you know? And again, just that idea of psychological warfare and fear. So, of course, the Russians are going to say, yeah, we totally concocted this genius plan and changed euphology or not just

Uphology, national security in the United States forever. Yeah, you're right. And I mean, one of the things about euphology and what I've found over the years and the decades

is that a lot of people in the field are very susceptible to sensational stories and leaked documents, things like that. And so many people view these documents as real

because he's got a top secret stamp and the story sounds really cool. And my mind, of you is well how do you actually know this is real just because it's a photo i mean it's a photocopy probably for the most part and just because somebody got their hands on a 1950s typewriter put a stamp on doesn't mean it's real it just means somebody has gone to a fairly good length to try and make something look like the real deal right but the problem is within uphology so many people want these documents to be real i know they do because when people get disappointed about

in a fake UFO document, if they're disappointed by it, that means they wanted it to be real. Oh, yeah. Because you're not going to get disappointed if you're just blaze about it or whatever. Right. So, and that is a good pointer

because it demonstrates how easy it is to manipulate UFO people. Because that whole X-Files, I want to believe factor, just plays into it all. and we all get questionable stuff now and again and mysterious characters you know I want to speak to you and I always tell people

well yeah follow it but don't go into it with your head thinking okay this is the real deal just see where it goes maybe it is the real deal maybe it's going to turn out to be garbage maybe it's going to be hazy somewhere between the two

and then reveal your results but don't get overly excited just because somebody says they once worked on an alien autopsy. Maybe they did, but then instead getting all excited and telling everybody before you've done the investigation get them to tell you the whole story, research it, or give me the name of the other doctors, you know, that kind of thing.

And I think that's sometimes the problem. Euphology is so easily to mould and manipulate because so often people in the field jump the gun. And they put a story out before it's finished researched and everybody then jumps onto it. And you've got the hoaxes who said, oh yeah, I worked on that program as well. But no one else had talked about it until you come out with it.

Yeah. I think one of the things that really stuck out to me, you and I were discussing this yesterday, when UFO researchers, we've all been there. someone approaches you and says, I've got this groundbreaking information that I want to share with you and only you. And you brought up something that I'd never really thought about either is not so much who is this person, what is the information they're giving you, but why? Why are they coming to you specifically? And I found that really interesting.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to sort of look at the bigger picture of things, you know, the why and when of how you got this story. And I mean, I always say to people, well, is it? Is there anything else that you're looking into at this particular time? And, you know, maybe the person was looking into, this is hypothetical now, but, you know, somebody's looking into the history of atomic energy in the US. And then some of the old guy comes along, hey, I've heard about you doing this research, I can help you. But that old person may actually be inserted to actually find out, well, why is this person looking into this? whole story, you know, of atomic energy history in the US.

So sometimes, you know, again, the UFO subject can be used like that. If somebody thinks you're doing something else, well, let's tease them. And, you know, we'll learn what they actually really are doing. You know, it's kind of like the dangling carrots, you know, give me something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have all these stories of, you know, the Paul Benowitz is and the, you know, using people. people to see how the public will react.

A lot of people think the stories of Bob Lazar were another attempt to throw a couple carrots out there, see how people react to the information. Well, I mean, on the issue of Bob Lazar, I mean, 30 years, well, more than 30 years, 31, 32 years now since he came out and talked about all this, I mean, it's still debated. You know, it hasn't gone away regardless of whether you buy into it or done. But again, I mean, for me, I think whatever the reason was, that whole plan, if you like, the whole program was initiated to achieve the end game that it has achieved. Now, why it was done, I don't know. Now, I don't believe Lazar was a liar.

Like, you know, there are people in euphology who do think he's just an outright liar. I remember Stan Freiband famously said, this is bunk, bunk, bunk. You said it three times like this, this is bunk, bunk, bunk. And he had no time for Bob Lazzar at all. But to me, Lazzard doesn't come across like your average hoaxer. You know, I mean, you think about it, 88, when he came out under an alias when he started in with the radio,

89 we got his name. And now, you know, it's almost 2020. and if although his autobiography is coming out very soon the fact is pretty much up until the last couple of years he didn't do anything with that story he told people this is what happened like it or not and if you don't like it whatever you know and so you know he at that time 80 to 8 89 90

when he was like really huge he didn't write a book he didn't have a movie he did a few lectures but he wasn't like someone who was on like a 70 city tour of the US no he was doing it very underground yeah now that that isn't really

how the average hoaxer comes across in euphology I mean I've met unfortunately you know more than a few hoaxes out of the years and you know money comes up almost immediately a lot of stuff that can't be proved and when the

initial core story sort of goes quiet after they finish their lecture circuit thing for three months then they say oh you know I've had some more experiences so they can get back on the lecture circuits you know that's how so many euphologists excuse me UFO witnesses I mean um who may have fabricated something that's how they work but Lazar didn't work like that it really was well I've told you my story if you don't like it and you don't believe me, there's the front door, you know. And that's not how most hoaxes have worked. And I mean, if he was a hoaxer, in that period, 89, 90,

he could have, you know, sort of dominated euphology for years, lectures, conferences, TV shows, movies, the whole thing. And I don't see what he gained back then for doing that, because he didn't really gain anything other than notoriety and people saying you're full of crap, you know. So that's why I think he was part of it, but he was like an innocent Patsy used as a means to, for whatever reason, I think somebody, probably in Area 51,

wanted to get the story out that, yes, there are aliens at Area 51. Now, why somebody might do that, that's a big question. I think the possibility could have been, you know, this is hypothetical, but maybe if there were sort of fears that there were Russian agents in the US and looking into our defense systems or, you know, pretending to be tourists, that kind of thing, well, if you put a story out,

there's something really weird and sensational is going on out at Area 51 and they get someone involved who can essentially vindicate it like Lazar. And you've got all these Russian spies looking into it. And because it's so sensational, there's no way they're not going to invest. The Russians aren't going to look into it. Well, maybe that's just like the fishermen reeling in the fish. But US intelligence reels in the Russian spies because they're all hovering around Area 51

because they've heard all these stories about, sensational alien technology and weapons and oh my god the Americans have got this and we haven't we need to find out what's going on yeah and if I recall weren't some of our first images ever of Area 51 from Russian satellites yeah wow

so the Russians knew something was going on and if they were trying to find out more and more somebody in Area 51 might have said well let's give them the ultimate fish in the river you know and they'll catch it and then we'll catch them. Isn't it funny?

Let's say for just a moment that the Russians were responsible for Roswell, whatever happened, they crashed. Whatever was involved with that was brought to Area 51, and now, in return of them trying to create a hysteria in America, now we're creating a hysteria for Russia,

thinking we have the same technology. Yeah, and I think so many people in euphology don't recognize those weird sides to the phenomenon or the subject. You know, they think it's black and white. It's aliens. It's government cover-ups. And that is, you know, that is a major part of it.

But so many people don't recognize the full nature and the scope of how the subject and the people in it can be so easily manipulated and sent down this path and that path. Not even realizing that somebody's pulling their strings. And all they see is the excitement factor. And it is exciting, but you can't just focus on that factor. You've got to, you know, tackle every aspect of whatever it is you're doing. Right, right. Well, I knew we could connect Area 51 to Russia somewhere. So I'm glad we found our way around that one.

Greetings, everyone, Ryan Sprague here, host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your Somewhere in the Sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies HQ and help us continue to grow

by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. and keep looking up. Sort of wrapping up that, this part of it, Nick, like the history of Russia and even America influencing its own people when it comes to the UFO topic. You brought up something in the book,

this strategy to diffuse the UFO hysteria, using the Walt Disney Corporation. Oh, yeah. That was a really interesting part of uphology that a lot of people don't really know about. Could you maybe sort of wrapping this section up, talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, both sides recognised the way in which the UFO subject could be manipulated as a means to alter people's views on just about anything, really.

But the Robertson panel was this prestigious panel set up in the early 1950s, essentially to not so much investigate UFOs as sightings and encounters, but how predominantly the phenomenon could be used from psychological perspectives. And one of the fears was that the Russians would use psychological warfare. And so the plan with the Robertson panel was to sort of try and diffuse the hysteria and the mania and the interest that was developing in terms of UFOs. And they had a lot of strange plans. One of them was to sort of enlist. the help of the Walt Disney Corporation

and have them make sort of of little movies kind of, you know, putting it in like a tongue-in-cheek perspective but also, you know, making the point that, well, there's not much to this really at all. It's just a bit of entertainment and people like it and, you know, pop culture

and diffuse the idea that, you know, there are Russia, or there are communist aliens coming. Or that there are just aliens coming. period, you know, that the idea was to just try and lay this all to rest and people will just go back to, you know, their regular lives before flying sources surfaced in 1947. But again, the Robertson panel very quickly realized that, you know, just with a few tweaks and turns here and there, you know, they could actually alter the mindset to a degree.

And, I mean, if you think about it, whether this was due to. to the Robertson panel or not, but although the UFO subject definitely obviously continued after 1953, 54 when all this was going on, but the political side of it, with like the Space Brothers, you know, the contactees,

Adamski and the FBI watching all these people, that really did go away after like the late 50s, you know, and it was all just about aliens and UFOs. But if you'd go away, back to that 50s period. He was filled with politics and just about all the contactees had files opened on him.

George Van Tassel's file who created the Integratron. And lived out at Giant Rock. His files, his FBI files more than 400 pages. Gray Barker, his was about 75 pages.

George Hunt Williamson, he's about 65 pages. And it goes on and on. So there was this period, for sure, sort of 47 until about 59, 58, that politics and the Russians and all this stuff, you know, was going on. And then to a large degree, in terms of the FBI angle and the Russian angle, went away. So, you know, you could make a case that part of it that may have been influenced by, you know, people like the Russian, excuse me, like the Robertson panel.

but, you know, it obviously didn't take away the UFO subject. It just meant politics largely went out of it. Yeah. But although the politics side went out of it, you know, the disinformation and the counterintelligence programs against the Russians, that didn't go away. But the, you know, the idea of people talking to communist aliens, that did kind of, you know, sort of go away,

sort of turn of the 60s thereabouts. Okay. Yeah. It's fascinating to think of how you can use the UFO topic to mold and manipulate a certain narrative. You could look at it now with this whole To the Stars Academy thing. You know, they've got all these former intelligence officers, counterterrorism people, military people, telling the public, these things are being seen by our military, our Navy, our Air Force, and they pose a national security threat. So right now you've got the most visible UFO group out there to the Stars Academy hitting every major media news outlet, reaching the biggest public platform we've really had in the UFO field for a while,

saying these things are dangerous, we need our military to take care of this. And then boom, I'm sure our military budgets are just skyrocketing. Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good point because I think, you know, if you look at the history of uphology in terms of the US government, you have Project Sign, Project Brudge, Robertson panel and Blue Book. And, you know, we were told that after 69, it was all canned, you know, it was all over. And we learned, you know, at the end of 2017, it wasn't over. And I think why that whole timeframe, late 2017, early 2018, was important.

It was because, you know, the debunkers, skeptics said, well, the government's not involved in uphology anymore. but it actually was, you know. And I think, well, I don't think I know, you know, that the mainstream media in New York Times, CNN, everybody covered this story. And they still cover it now when bits and pieces of new material comes out. So I think regardless of how much research is going on with this program, I think another part of it is to see what the response is.

not just on the 5,000 or 6,000 people in uphology, but also the general public and the media. I see how all three communities, if you like, respond to this. So I think that's part of it.

I think it is legitimate in UFO investigations, but it's also like a psychological study of the mindset of what different people think about this program and is it affecting them or are they thinking about it so there's way more to it there's way more to it i think and although i'm not a big fan of um disclosure mainly because it for me it's almost like the the story of the boy who cried wolf you know

cried too many times and nobody came and i think that that's the main issue i have with disclosure is not the concept of disclosure. I got tired of hearing certain people at conferences saying I've got a high-ranking source who told me, you know, that disclosure's coming next Thursday at 2.45 after whatever shows played out on the particular TV channel. I mean, a big sarcastic there, you know, but I mean, you get the point.

People in the disclosure movement were saying, I've got a contact and I think it's coming out this year or it's coming out later this year, if not it's a year after and that's what sort of pissed me off with the whole disclosure movement I was like if you've got nothing to say that's solid

well go away and come back when you're for sure know that disclosure's coming so that is my issue now could disclosure happen well it could but for me it's been smeared with all these stories of yeah it's coming next week

it's coming next month it's coming next year but in saying that's Again, I mean, there could be legitimate disclosure and we all finally get the truth. Or it could be like a fabricated, manipulated disclosure where, for example, you know, people believe that something has happened when it could have been kind of like with the War of the World. You know, that was just an entertainment, but people bought into it. You know, I sometimes wonder if disclosure might be like a fabricated thing that would be. a way to take away more of our rights. You know, somebody sees a fleet of UFOs over each city.

Yeah. Who's to say they were created on that star system? Yeah. Maybe they were created by us as a means to create fear. You know, we all get up one morning. And let's say, you know, there's a 200-foot-wide saucer over 20 US cities. That's all it would take to put the country in a state of like, like national security issues

were just sore you know and I mean that might sense I mean some people might think that sounds like really conspiratorial

and paranoid which to a degree it is but you know it would not take any time to you know create a few sophisticated weird looking

spaceship type things have them hovering each over a bunch of cities and you know the city the the country of being locked down

within hours it really would so maybe disclosure you know and then you've got some prominent figures saying yes the aliens have finally arrived we don't know what's going on

they're just sitting there in the sky and we've got to do something about it so we're going to initiate new national security laws because we don't know what's going to happen and before you know it it's like you know more rights are going Right.

More surveillance. More surveillance. By doing nothing other than fly a few craft in the sky, which gets everybody in a state of whatever. It's really interesting the idea of just the psychological warfare that's been enacted probably on both ends, either America or Russia. And I think the book sort of encapsulates this idea,

this, you bookend it so well in the beginning and the end, of going from one time in history when this could have happened up until now where we have Russian meddling happening in our everyday elections here in America. So I kind of want to ask you, closing this out, Nick, what is the internet done in this new age to really show that it's so damn easy to influence people now? Well, one of the problems is,

with the internet is that I think so many people just you know they read the headline or the first couple of paragraphs and you know it could be like a multi-page article you know done by a reputable news

outlet but people say I haven't got time but they just read the headline whatever and so they don't sometimes that happens I think people do that all the time I can admit that yeah yeah I mean that does happen and I think there's also this tendency see when people read in uphology, they read stuff on the internet.

I think what's on the internet, so it's real. You know, that does happen. Oh, yeah? I mean, it does. And so, you know, I think we need to be more careful and tentative about what we say and when we say it.

And that's like, you know, if I write a book, like that one, you know, that took about 18 months from beginning to end to get all the data, research, interview people, and then to be published. And in that period,

I didn't tell anyone about the book. And I always did that because something could happen in that period that could blow one of the cases completely in the different direction. And if I start talking about it too soon, you know, then so that's why I think it's important to do all the research

and stay as quiet as you can. And then when you've made a case, then put it out. And I think if more people did that, we would have a community that isn't unfortunately, we're not infiltrated, but filled with, you know, controversial people, hoaxes, somebody who we find out, you know,

spent five years in the slammer or whatever for this, you know, or they've got a background in this. You know, we could have, we could have wrapped some of these people up if somebody had, instead of following their story, follow their background and if it turns out to be legitimate that's great if it turns out

you know they were busted for this and busted for that there's a good chance their story's bogus but you know we need to focus on the alternative sides I think of the euphology to get some of the answers or why government agencies are looking into things

you know and it's not always for the reasons that it isn't always because they're looking into aliens. Yeah. Sometimes it's politics, it's mind manipulation, um, uh,

belief systems and then it all comes into play. And, um, and sometimes I think people just don't realize the sheer depth that sometimes that, that sort of connection of different things come to a connection.

Yeah. It's, um, and it's sort of fascinating, aspect that actually tells us more about people and the UFO community than it actually does the UFO phenomenon itself. Yeah, it's putting that mirror back on ourselves often, I think. That's a really good way to look at it. Well, can you tell us a little, Nick, about what comes next for you

and where we can find all your work? Well, yeah, flying sources from the Kremlin. You can get that off the shelves in Barnes & Noble. or they can order it in in a couple of days. You can get it from Amazon as well. And the next book I've got coming out is a little bit of a departure, assassinations. And it's like an a to Z of historical assassinations

throughout history. So it actually goes back to like the Egyptian times, the Romans. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then through to, you know, English kings and queens in the Middle Ages. And then through to like Abraham Lincoln.

And then through, of course, of the 20th century, JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, things like that. So there's about sort of 70 or 80

assassinations looked at and there are different theories who may have been behind them and things like that. Oh, interesting. Yes, and that's actually some UFO stuff in there, people in euphology,

who've died under mysterious circumstances. And so it's all conspiracy stuff. No, is this, all deaths. Oh. Yeah, probably the most morbid book. Yeah. Is this part of the series that you do? Because I know you've done other books that are like, you know, 50 cases of this.

Yeah, yeah, it's done by Visible Ink Press. Oh, cool. The Flying Sources from the Kremlin, that's just written in a regular style. But Visible Ink Press, they have their own way of doing all their books. And they're all 400 pages long, 150,000 words. And sometimes they're done in A to Z. style and sometimes it's chronological and things like that.

But they're sort of written from like an encyclopedia type perspective. Not where it's like dull and dusty to read but it's the style is where you know you could if it's A to Z you know you could look up K for Kennedy John F you know

and then you could jump back to the start of the book for Julius Caesar that kind of thing. So you're not forced in other words to go from page one to 400, which can be a bit daunting for, you know, it's daunting for me sometimes. You know, when I'm reading a huge book, it's like, oh my God, I'm going to get through this, you know. But I think people like it when, you know, just take the book to the beach or whatever, and take the Kindle to the beach and just dip into it here and there.

You're not, you know, it's not like you've got to keep going from page 1 to 400. And I actually like that style. Me too. I mean, I remember reading your book where you, recorded a UFO event from every day of the week for the year. And that was so cool

because you literally could wake up every morning with their coffee and be like, what happened in uphology today? So I think it's a really fascinating structure that anyone in the public, not just those interested in UFOs,

can really digest, you know? Well, actually with that book, the 365 days of UFOs, a few people actually said to me, they didn't know each other, but they, They said the first one that I did was actually to see what happened on their birthday. Oh, of course.

Which makes sense. You know, everybody would probably do that. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to have to go back and look at what happened on August 8th. Nick, thank you so much for doing today, man. That was an absolute pleasure. That's it for this week's episode. Be sure to check out the prolific Nick reference collection of books at any bookstore or online.

And be sure to get Flying Saucers in the Kremlin right now through Lisa Hagen Books and on Amazon. You may have seen me put a call out for this on Facebook or Twitter recently. That's right, it is time once again for another volume of witness accounts. If you have a compelling UFO sighting, encounter, or experience, you'd like to share on the show, this is your chance. These episodes consist of only listener accounts, and they are by far some of the most popular episodes to date. So if you'd like to be a part of it and to discuss further and submit your account, reach out to me personally on Facebook, Twitter, or use the contact tab on the website, somewhere in the skies.com. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Somewhere in the skies on Apple Podcasts, your Android

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