Somewhere in the Skies - OMNIBUS 02 | The Roswell UFO Crash

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

In another omnibus, we bring you a collection of interviews from Somewhere in the Skies that all had something to do with the famous Roswell UFO incident. Whether it was the history of the event those involved to the analysis and conclusions of possible metal debris left behind by the object that crashed. We even dive into the pop cultural phenomenon that was the alien autopsy! Sit back, relax, and celebrate the anniversary of the Roswell UFO crash! Please take a moment to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple. Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Discord: https://discord.gg/NTkmuwyB4F Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ryansprague.bsky.social Twitter: https://twitter.com/SomewhereSkies Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somewhereskiespod/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Store: http://tee.pub/lic/ULZAy7IY12U Read Ryan’s articles at: https://medium.com/@ryan-sprague51 Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Copyright © 2025 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific Time. Today on Somewhere in the Skies, we talk to military veteran, retired police officer, and UFO investigator, James Clarkson.

You know, they would tell you, well, their job is to protect us and that there's some national security or intelligence reason, why they need to conceal this story and or use it to manipulate the situation. See, we are also part of the game. Everybody, you and I, everybody in the UFO community, we are also subject to manipulation. And that's one of the hardest things is to know when you're being played. You are now somewhere in the skies with your host, Ryan's brain.

He had been researching UFOs for decades. He'd spoken to hundreds of witnesses uncovered once classified documents and had interviewed individuals connected to perhaps the most famous UFO event of all time. The Roswell UFO crash. After speaking at a

conference about the secret government involvement into the UFO phenomenon and subsequent investigation of it, an elderly woman approached him and told him, you're right. The government does know much more than it ever says publicly about UFOs. He asked her how she knew. She told him, because I worked there. What followed was a highly extensive interview with June Crane, a woman who worked. at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, presumably where the wreckage of the Roswell UFO crash once ended up. But this wasn't the only case that Wright-Patterson found itself wrapped up in.

And as June Crane's story took light, it was clear that it was a story worth hearing. His interview with her was transcribed into a book titled Tell My Story, June Crane, the Air Force and UFOs. And today we talk to a retired police officer turned UFO investigator, James Clarkson, about his time with June Crane. And what she witnessed, touched, and was told to keep secret about in relation to the Roswell incident and beyond. James, thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. Oh, it's an honor, Ryan.

Sort of the reason I wanted to have you on today, our main focus, is your involvement, with the June Crane story. But before we get to that, I want to sort of paint a picture for our listeners of you, James. So can you sort of tell us a little bit about your background and law enforcement and how it sort of evolved into your investigative work into UFOs? How the, your origin story, as it were. Ah, my origin story. Well, I guess I would describe myself as someone who came out of the, the turbulence of the 1960s, grew up in a middle class. home south of San Francisco, California. I ended up attending a high school in San Francisco, a prep school. I went on to the University of California, and to be honest, I was really sort of lost. And there were full-blown riots going on on the Berkeley campus on occasion. I watched cars overturned and burned, police firing tear gas, all that good stuff. And yet, as a young man, I always had an interest in law enforcement.

But that was not a popular thing with my peer group. So I was kind of torn in two directions. And things were not as clear to me then as they are now. I ended up doing the one thing that I thought I would never do, wanting to get away from everybody and everything that I knew. I decided to make a clean break, and I enlisted in the Army. And fortunately, this was when the Vietnam War was winding downs. So they didn't have any money.

And I ended up going to basic training at Fort Ord, military police school in Fort Gordon, Georgia. And then I was sent to Fort Lewis Washington, which is now called Joint Base Louis McGord, outside of Tacoma. I was a plain-closed military policeman, and I loved my job in the military. I have to say it was really intense, lots of hours, but I learned basic criminal investigation skills backwards, forwards, and sideways.

I ended up getting out. I became a reserve deputy sheriff. I was then hired by a police department on the coast of Washington State, the Aberdeen, Washington Police Department. I did a 20-year career there. During that time, I was promoted to the rank of sergeant about halfway through the 20 years. I was a detective sergeant. I supervised field training officers. I was in charge of the fatal accident team.

I wore a lot of hats. I blew out my knee. I became a child abuse detective for two years. They were never quite able to fund the program, although the work was really intense, very difficult, but also very satisfying if you were willing to put up with a lot of frustration and heartache. I ended up moving to a little bit of frustration.

Olympia, Washington, and I became a fraud investigator for the state working for the Department of Licensing and their professional licensing division. Ten years later brought me to retirement age. And in the meantime, throughout this whole progression of investigative experience, there was another aspect to my life that was there ever since I was little. and everyone always asked me, well, what is your UFO experience, you know, expecting me to tell them what I saw or which extraterrestrial I met? And the answer I always give people kind of jokingly is, always a bridesmaid, never a bride. Love it. I have been swayed by the evidence of all of the fields of study that there are. I cannot think of one that has a more fascinating history and cast of characters than euphology.

I mean, it really does. We've got the good, the bad, and the ugly. We've got wild speculative fantasies that are put forth for a variety of motives, people who want to make money, people who are convinced of their own story without any evidence to back it up. And then we do have a group of, fortunately, highly educated, highly experienced and professional people. These are people like the gentleman you mentioned a while ago, Peter Robbins, people like Richard Dolan, you know, Dr. J. Allen Heinek from a long time ago. We have so many people that are bright lights in this field. And they are the people that are worth studying.

I'm sort of taking a street detective approach to uphology and all my involvement really started because of a radio program. And I think if you've ever had the experience the first time that your parents leave you alone for the weekend in charge of the house. And I happened to tune in KGO radio in San Francisco and this was in the mid-60s and a man named John G. Fuller was day. debuting his brand new book called Incident at Exeter. Ah, yes, I'm very familiar.

Oh, that's one of the greatest UFO stories ever. And the part that I loved, I was utterly fascinated, is the encounter that the policemen have, where the officer is called back to the station and picks up this traumatized hitchhiker and takes him back to the scene of his UFO encounter, they pull up into the driveway of a farm and everything is painted white. The fence is white.

The buildings are white, et cetera. And all at once, everything lights up blood red because of this 50-foot disc with scintillating lights that it's going around its perimeter. And it comes down so low that the officer shoves the witness down. He drops to one knee and starts to... to draw his sidearm. At the same moment that the backup officer is arriving, who yells at him, don't, you know, don't, like don't shoot. And fortunately, he doesn't.

Well, then, of course, the Air Force comes out with the explanation that these were just strato-tankers that were flying high overhead and refueling jet planes as part of some military exercise. And the longer I thought about it, I thought this is really interesting. We put a policeman out on the street with a loaded weapon and we let him drive a car and his eyesight is so bad that he can't tell the difference between something that's coming down out of the air that might flatten him like a bug and a jet airplane flying overhead at 30,000 feet. Right. So what's wrong with this picture? And sometimes in this field, we get more information out of a denying. than we do out of an admission.

And in law enforcement investigation, that's frequently true. What a suspect tells you to deny that they were involved in the crime is often way more interesting than anything that they might tell you in an admission. And so that would be my first reference, indirect reference to Roswell, because we have the U.S. Air Force, I forget how many explanations we're up to. to at least six or seven official explanations for Roswell. It's kind of like literally having the elephant in the room and someone has draped a bed sheet over him.

Yeah, I always go back to that Shakespeare quote, you know, the Doth protest too much. Precisely. If UFOs are not real and there's no, why do they go to such absurd lengths to deny the validity of the story. If we're just a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing nuts, then nobody should care what we have to say. You know, you brought up Roswell, and this case never goes away, James. It seems to be making a resurgence again. You know, we have a new, I shouldn't say new, but a reboot of the Roswell television show coming out, a fictional version, I must say, about the supposed aliens that crashed and, you know, assumed human identities and integrated into society. Again, this is all

fictionalized, obviously, perhaps fictionalized. We'll get to that a little later, but we have this case that never seems to go away. We have endless, you know, explanations by the Air Force, the military, even the government about what happened there. And it keeps changing, which fascinates me is we can't, nobody wants to let this one go, even the people who might have been involved with it. That's right. I guess that can sort of lead into what I really wanted to focus on with you today, James, is this fascinating story with June Crane. So before we even get to who she is, how did you first come into contact with this woman?

Well, that's a function of the fact that I was an Aberdeen police officer. On the southwest coast of Washington, there is a large harbor, Gray's Harbor. And you have to imagine a giant triangle. You have Aberdeen, Hoquium, and Cosmopolis are three cities that are at the mouth of two rivers, Wichka River and the Hoquium River. And there's like a triangle on each side, there's two more legs. 25 miles to the north you end up in ocean shores, 25 miles to the south, you end up in Westport, Washington. Well, in the interim of becoming a policeman, I had kept secret the fact that I was interested in UFOs for the first several years of my employment, because it's really not a good idea to come right out when you're a new policeman and tell people that you're interested in UFOs.

Probably not going to give you a great reputation. But after a few years, I was established and I was able to give as good as I got. And policemen are the worst gossips and the worst kidders in the world. I mean, to the outside world, they try to present a solid front. And if you threaten one of them, obviously they lock up really quick to protect each other. But amongst themselves, they're vicious gossipers. Never let it be said that women gossip, men gossip just as bad as women do, if not worse. And policemen are the worst.

and I say that because when you think about it, they get paid to dig up dirt on everybody and they're merciless with each other. So I eventually, though, let people know that I was interested in UFOs. And the classic conversation occurred that has been repeated a bazillion times. I'm sure you've had this. You insert the subject of UFOs into a conversation either deliberately or accidentally and watch what happens. Oh my gosh, man.

I've lost so many second dates because of that conversation. Yeah, I probably did too. That's all right. In the long run, that's a good thing. Exactly. What usually happens is there's the giggle moment. And everybody, you know, makes jokes about little green men, people with tinfoil hats, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there's a calm and everybody, somebody will look around nervously in the group, and then they will

say something like, well, I had a relative or someone that they know really well and they trust them who had an experience and then they will go on to tell you a UFO story or they'll come right out and say that they did. And the conversation, it's like gravity, it always comes out the same way. And there is just too much smoke for there not to be some fire in all of this. It's way, it goes way too deep. It's way too common. Now, having said all that, though, I'm not going to tell you that I still understand what the underlying forces are in this field. Even after studying this for over 30 years, you know, we could spend hours speculating on the various primary explanations.

Well, eventually, I ended up meeting Joanne, who fortunately is still my wife, and we were together off and on for five years, but at the time that I met her, she was the Children's Library for the Timberland Regional Library System. And one of the things that they always tried to do is to get more people to come into libraries and what they call adult evening programs, programs that are aimed at teenagers, and above are very popular and will usually draw in numbers. And UFOs turn out to be the hottest kind of program that you can have in a library in terms of getting people in the door.

So she got me going on the notion of lecturing about UFOs. That's kind of funny because we originally got together because I helped her carry a box that was filled with odds and ends related to a Sasquatch program. Of course. to include a giant plaster cast sticking out of the box. And when we got to her car, I saw that she had UFO books in the back seat, and I thought, I've died and gone to heaven. This is just too good. If I can't make a conversation with this woman, I'm going to give up.

So, fortunately, it all worked out. But along the way, she got me to do library programs. and one of the places that I went in 1993 was the Ocean Shores Library. And I gave my lecture. I had slides. I mean, this is backwards. I was still using 35 millimeter slides and thought I was hot stuff because I had managed to supplement it, you know, with some well done pictures of UFOs and all of that.

Now, of course, everyone is digital and nobody remembers what a color slide is. Right. So after I was all done, a very stern, serious-looking elderly woman approached me and said, You're right. The government knows all about UFOs, and they're keeping it a secret. And I said, how do you know? And she said, because I worked there. And I could tell.

I mean, I was into, I'd been a policeman for quite a few years by then, and you kind of get used to reading people, trying to decide, are they serious? are they faking, are they joking, you know, are they telling the truth? Are they lying? What's going on here? Well, this woman seemed to be very truthful and she was dead serious. And I said, well, would you tell me more? I tried to draw her out and she looked at me and said, I can't. They'll come and arrest me. And I think she was afraid that I might do the arresting because I did not keep it a secret that I was an off-duty detective sergeant. giving a presentation in a library about UFOs. And so it was entirely possible in her mind that I could arrest her if she disclosed the wrong thing.

Well, I gave her my business card and I kept track of her because I was curious who she was. I found out that she was a well-known figure in the community. She had led the charity drive to build a brand new library. There were some hot community issues out in Ocean Shores. This was originally they were trying to promote legalized gambling, and this was going to be a huge real estate project. Well, the legalized gambling never happened. And eventually it turned out to be a great place for people to have resort homes, but it never took off the way they had planned. But there were very wealthy people out there.

And June had stood up and gone toe to toe literally with somebody who was connected with the mob. she got in this guy's face. Wow. That's the kind of lady that she was. She didn't back down from anybody. But what nobody knew was what her life was like when she was young. So we have to flash forward to 1997. 1997 is a really important year for UFOs.

It's extremely important. Not only because of the UFO events that occurred that year, but because of back to what I mentioned earlier, the government response is so interesting. And you've got to think back and remember that July of 1997 is the 50th anniversary of the Roswell UFO crash. I didn't go, but I know from people that I've met that it was so crowded with UFO people

in Roswell that they had to hire off-duty policemen from all over New Mexico to do traffic control. So, I mean, it was a big, and you couldn't get a motel room anywhere. If you didn't already have one, forget it. I wanted to re-contact June, and in 1997, the opportunity presented itself. But you've got to think back to earlier in the year, March 13th of 19, 1997, we have the Phoenix Lights. The Phoenix Lights is another event that I put on the same level of magnitude as Roswell in UFO history. And there are many reasons for that.

One of which was that I attended the UFO conference in McMinville, Oregon, several years ago, three or four years ago. And it was devoted entirely to presentations by people who had key knowledge related to the Phoenix lights, and I was absolutely spellbound by that. It was, that was a great, that was as much of a revelation to me as Roswell has been. So I, I don't think this point was lost on the secret keepers that on March 13th of 1997, an extremely large, real UFO triangular shaped, flew over the central corridor of Arizona, and I believe that there was a government response, a very strong government response. In fact, Peter Davenport from the National UFO Reporting Center, his theory is, that happens to be

the same night, by the way, if you go back and check the news, you'll find out that President Bill Clinton supposedly tripped on some stairs and then was grabbed by the Secret Service and rushed back to Washington, D.C. for emergency knee surgery. Peter Davenport's theory is, if he ever met Bill Clinton, the first question he would ask is, Mr. President, will you please raise your pant leg? He thinks that there's no scar because there was no surgery, because it was just a cover story. And the cover story was that the UFO event in Phoenix was so major. and it was clearly obvious that this was an unearthly technology on a grand scale that they had to scramble jets,

they decided not to, you know, fire on this thing. And as a result of their military assessment of the potential, they moved the United States up the def-con scale. And that meant that by protocol, they had to grab the president and get him into a secure facility. A Lego set is a gift that always clicks. And clicks. And clicks. For kids who love to save the day, choose a Lego set. A gift that always clicks.

Interesting. Oh, it's fascinating. I mean, this is a big deal. Now, of course, a lot of this is pure speculation. We can't document it. But it certainly plays out. All right. So we have.

We're back to that being the kind of backdrop for the year 1997. For some reason, along about June of that year, we're going to end up with too many June's in this story, but I can't. So in the month of June, 1997, the Air Force announces that they are publishing a book. the book is titled Roswell Case Closed and you can still get copies of it I've got one over here on the shelf pretty thick book from what I remember

yeah it's something like that well interestingly enough I actually interviewed the guy whose work supposedly was the basis for their new explanation and he is angry because he was a career Air Force officer who took his work with parachute dummies very seriously.

And they used the whole parachute dummy thing to explain alien bodies at Roswell. That and Project Mogul. So that's the text of this book. So the book comes out, and of course because it's the Air Force, and because UFOs are really a hot subject that year, the X-Files was also going full bore.

So the X-Files had now become household word. You've got UFOs on everybody's mind. You've got the Phoenix lights. The secret keepers know they're in trouble. They're coming up on the 50th anniversary of Roswell. So when they publish their book, Roswell case closed, it's blasted all over CNN. It's the big story. Yep.

I remember. Well, out in Ocean Shores, Washington, an elderly lady named June happened to be watching the news. and she got really angry. And I also think that the other backdrop to this is that her cancer had come back. And she never did quite admit to me how precarious her health was until the very end. But she called me on the phone with no warning. I have not heard from this woman in four years. The phone rings.

I pick it up and it's June's voice. And she goes, It's a damn lie. And I said, well, June, good to hear from you. Quite a hello, yes. Yes. So we exchanged pleasantries. And then she explains to me, she says she had been watching the news.

She wanted to know if I had been watching. And she wanted to talk about Roswell case closed. And then she said, the balloon story is the same story that we used to use when we wrote letters to the public telling them that they hadn't seen what they said they saw. and this went on for a while and finally I said, why are you willing to talk to me now and you weren't willing to talk to me then? And she said, I'm 72 years old. I've outlived two husbands and my cancer's in remission. What are they going to do?

Shoot me or put me in prison. I can do either one. Well, that was good enough for me because I was already convinced that she was serious. And so I asked her if I could come and visit her. And that began a whole series, mostly late night meetings, because she was kind of a night owl. I was on a swing shift, so I would get off duty and then drive the 30 miles to her house out in ocean shores. And we would sit up half the night, me listening to her life story. Eventually she showed me her personal papers that she later gave to me.

and finally I got her to go on audio tape. That was not easy. She was not real happy with that, mainly because I think she was so concerned about being careful. It was very important to her that she would only tell me things that she was sure of. And that, of course, is kind of a good news, bad news thing. I only wanted the facts from her, but it made her extra careful. In other words, if she didn't know, she didn't know, and if she didn't remember, she didn't remember.

That's gold when you're interviewing witnesses. The worst witness is the one who knows everything about everything. And we have them in the UFO field. They never met an all-encompassing theory of extraterrestrial presence that they didn't like. So I gradually also, it happened to be, as a personal aside, This happened to be during a time period when Joanna and I had one of our breakups. And so June and I became friends. And, you know, I don't mean in a romantic way, but I mean she was a lonely person.

I was a lonely man. We talked about our lives, where we were going, where we'd been. I would have loved to have heard her story even without the UFO part because she grew up in Dayton, Ohio. She worked for the United States government three times between 1942 and 1952. She worked in classified laboratories. She had a Q-level security clearance eventually. She was steadily promoted talking to June. The more I got to know her, the more I got to respect her.

And, you know, little anecdotes like this. She told me, she said, if you grew up in Dayton, Ohio and you wanted a good job. job. You went to work for the government. That was just the way it was. And you got to remember that when she went to work there in 1942, the war had just begun, of course, on December 7th of 1941. They had Wright Field. Right Field was the one place where they had wind tunnels and they were doing experimentation on aviation. But there was no Air Force then. The Air Force did not exist until afterwards. World War II in 1947 as a result of the National Security Act. Right, right.

So when she went to work there, I actually have papers by her that are on war department stationary. And it's, you know, the Army Aviation, the Air Materiel Command, things like that. Because, you know, none of the things that we take for granted even existed. So it was fascinating to hear like the night of Pearl Harbor. Before Pearl Harbor, there wasn't even a fence around Wright Field. And she told me that that night that occurred, they sent out trucks of soldiers, sentries with rifles to surround the entire base where each sentry could see the other one.

Because nobody knew whether or not the United States was about to be invaded. by the Japanese. There was panic and chaos and confusion. And so Wright Field being a very important facility, they had to secure it. Right. And then, you know, eventually, James, when it

becomes Wright Air Force Base, which we'll get to, you know, this place becomes synonymous with the Roswell UFO case. I mean, again, that's a little fast forwarding. I would love to hear if you don't mind.

A little bit more about June Crane's clearance, this cue clearance. And then also what really caught my attention, now this is all transcribed by you for the audio. And there were some really key points that stuck out to me. So I guess maybe we'll sort of focus on those. So the first two would be this cue clearance. And June's experience with catching a spy, this really fascinated me. Would you mind running us through these two things? No, I wouldn't mind at all.

The Q-level clearance actually has an interesting evolution, and the way that I confirmed it was from a completely unexpected source when it came to figuring out what a Q-level clearance was back then. And it came from my father. And the reason being that when he got out of the Navy, he ended up going to work for a nuclear fuel processing plant in Paducah, Kentucky. It was the second one in the United States after Oak Ridge. And actually, I think there was, of course, they were making weapons grade up here, but we had Hanford here in Washington State. But in any event, when my dad worked there in the control room, he had to have a Q-level security clearance. And back then, you literally wore a cardboard letter Q that was pinned to your clothing that you had to wear at all times. when you were in this high security environment so that everybody there would know that you were cleared to be there.

So that's literally what acute clearance was. Now, of course, it's different, you know, with key cards and, you know, fingerprints and retinas and all the other ways that, you know, a high security facility can operate. Right. But back then, that's all they had. And acute clearance meant that they would send the FBI to interview all of your friends. and relatives to verify your identity, to see if there was anything in your background that should bar you from your clearance. So my dad actually went through that. So when I was telling him about the work I was doing on June's background, he was immediately

able to explain to me what the process was. And I do know that June worked on classified projects and one of the ways that I know that is that she talked about Project Caucasian. And she did not remember all of the details, but she remembered things like, you know, what are the things I've learned along the way in interviewing people is that the thing that most people remember most strongly

is not the event, but their emotional reaction to the event. Right, right. I focus a lot on that with my work interviewing witnesses. So I couldn't agree with that more. If people remember how they felt. And she remembered that there was like a lot of nervousness and tension whenever she worked on something called Project Caucasian. She recalled that her boss would become very, you know, he was like skittish because he was worried about the security around this particular project.

Well, June passed away in 1998. I had all of this information, and I eventually was able to get it to a team of researchers in 2000, quite an illustrious group of people that I never expected to meet. But there were no military historians that I was able to contact who could tell me anything about Project Caucasian. It was a complete mystery. Nobody had ever heard of that as a code name for a project. Well, three or four years after that, I believe it was like 2003, 2004, they declassified Project Caucasian from top secret down to a public disclosure document. It was the parachute harness. It was the code name for the project to create a parachute harness for a hydrogen bomb to be dropped out of the back of a

a B-36 bomber. No wonder everyone was so nervous. Yes, no wonder everybody was so nervous, and no wonder it was a highly classified project. Of course it was highly classified. And June worked in these laboratories doing what we would now call office manager work, but a woman could not have a title like manager. So she was doing all the clerical work. She was also doing security work, which meant she told me that she was in charge.

of multiple safes. Now you've got to think back and remember this is before anybody even imagined the internet. So people are using manual typewriters. Everything is on paper and in folders

and files. It had to be logged in and out of safes. And it was her job. She told me that she had a full bird colonel who was her direct supervisor who was in charge of the security of these documents in this laboratory where she worked. And so she routinely associated with scientists and engineers.

And in order to do her work, she had to have the same security clearance as the people who were working on these projects. So she told me, for instance, she kept using the phrase she said that Kanaki wrote the Bible on parachutes. Well, there wasn't a whole lot on him at the time that I was talking to June, but later on I learned that there was a Walter Kanaki, who was one of the paperclip scientists who was brought over from Germany at the end of World War II and given a cushy job in the United States in return for his assistance in building parachutes to drop payloads onto battlefields. In other words, he was an engineer who could design parachutes to drop vehicles and military equipment from an airplane. So this is all highly classified work. This is military science being applied, as it were.

Well, she was also tasked with writing letters to people related to UFOs. And back then, they were actually, in words, if you wrote them any kind of a letter at all, they would actually send you a real letter back, saying that, you know, we don't investigate UFOs or we think that what you have presented is impossible from an engineering viewpoint, etc. She was also privy to conversations. In other words, she works amongst scientists and engineers and military people, and they talked about some of their experiences in the Southwest when they would go down there to do some of the early rocketry research. This is after World War II. We are now trying to benefit from the V2 technology. She mentioned the AeroB rocket, which if you go back and you look at the history of rocketry in the United States,

you'll hear that the AeroB was one of the first heavy lifter rockets. One of the first rockets that could carry a substantial payload. And, of course, that's the beginning of the space program. But then there's a personal side to this whole story. And it goes with the times that June lived in. And it deals with issues that are still important today. June was an attractive, intelligent young woman. She gets a good job.

She's steadily promoted. She is praised by her coworkers and her supervisors. She marries one of the base security policeman. all he wants to do is to get out of the Air Force and go on with his life. And he does not want her to have a career. They eventually have a child. And there's a point in June's history that I could tell where she was always sad. And every time she would mention this one particular event, she would get tears in her eyes.

and the event was that she was recalling the night that she was ordered to stay very late and to take dictation from a German rocket scientist she believes that it was Werner von Braun or she did believe that it was Werner von Braun except that there is no historical record that I have ever been able to locate that places Werner von Braun at Wright Patterson

but interestingly enough The person who pointed that problem out to me was June. When I first started talking to June, she had two or three of the key biographies of Werner Bronbron that she had been looking through trying to find some reference to him being there. She couldn't find it. I couldn't find it. It's also possible that he may have sort of written out that part of his history because Werner von Braun of course became a very famous scientist and kind of a spokesperson for

our early space program. Right. And so references to the time when he was an involuntary guest of the United States government may have been sanitized from his history because he probably wouldn't want to talk about that time period. And the last thing he would want to talk about is the work that he may have done under the Third Reich in Germany. Also, because some of the places where he worked use slave labor.

This guy just gets worse and worse. Oh, it's Project Paperclip is, I mean, that's one of the most controversial things that ever happened in U.S. history, and you could debate endlessly. Was it right that we did that? Was it immoral? Did we aid in a bet people who were involved in genocide? I mean, you know, you could go on and on. And if we hadn't taken those scientists, the Soviets probably would have taken them.

And we would have been behind in the space program. I don't know how you argue that. It is what it is. But Project Paperclip is fascinating history. And the thing about June's story is she's not a smoking gun witness to many things. But because we can so firmly establish who she was and where she worked, much of what she has to say is. is what I would call key corroborating testimony. And that's what makes her story powerful.

And her honesty makes her story powerful. She didn't claim to be all-powerful or all-knowing in the UFO movement. She had certain things that she was certain of that she had experienced that were very important to her. And I mentioned that she had to stay late because of this dictation. Well, when she was told that she could not go home until it was done, this military officer who had escorted her to where this scientist was being held told June, he said, June, if you succeed in this project and we get the money from Congress that we're trying to get based upon partially the work you're doing here, transcribing this man's testimony, you will have had your moment in. history because he believed that this was going to be part of the foundation of the space program. So June was very patriotic and she was really honored to be, you know, even a small part

of something as historic as that. And yet they wanted her to stay with the program doing her office managerial clerical work, but her husband wouldn't hear of it and told her that she had to quit her job, and so she did. And she always regretted that. Her husband was killed on their 10th wedding anniversary. And this is weird, too. By then they had moved to Portland, Oregon, and June and he had had kind of a rocky road, and she thought they were going to break up, and they were just getting things back together,

and they were going to go out to celebrate their 10th anniversary, and he went out front of the house to put new license plate tabs on the car, and a drunk driver came around the corner and smashed into the back of the car, and he was caught in the middle. And he was killed in that auto accident. Well, you know, I'm an investigator, and I was also June's friend, So I actually dug up the newspaper article in the Portland newspaper that documents that traffic accident. Even as wild as that story sounds, it sounds like something out of a novel.

It's real. And then June gave me all of her papers that proved where she worked. And then independent of that, I made multiple applications to the National Records Center in St. Louis, because June was a civilian employee of the U.S. government. And at first, they told me they didn't have the records. There had been a terrible fire. The records were not available, et cetera, et cetera. I made multiple tries.

And finally, without warning one day, I got a huge envelope in the mail that was like two inches thick and someone had photocopied every paper in her file and sent them to me. I already had about a third of those documents anyway because I had June's copies. But all that did was fill in the blanks. Right. And James, I should add here, I mean, a lot of the contention when it comes to, quote, unquote, whistleblowers or people who bring this information forward is documentation of they worked where they worked. I mean, this is probably the biggest debate about the whole Bob Lazar controversy, which I don't want to get into now. But I think that's very important that you had it from June and you had this third party who was able to corroborate that as well. Right.

And that really, you know, that puts you a long ways up in terms of looking at this as an investigation as opposed to just thinking that it's a, you know, a whistleblower disclosure statement. And, you know, everything just screamed at me that this was the real deal. and June told me all the details like the office where she worked. I, of course, am old enough that I remember what a manual typewriter is. And it had an inked ribbon, and you actually had keys that mechanically struck the ribbon and made a mark on a sheet of paper. When they went home at night, they had to lock up every piece of paper that they worked on in a safe. And that included the typewriter ribbon, because they were afraid that,

enemy agents would get a hold of the typewriter ribbon and would be able, by studying the ribbon, be able to reconstruct some portion of what they were writing. So they went to those links. Wow, that's pretty fast. It was their equivalent of preventing somebody from hacking your computer. Yeah. Only this was done, you know, with manual typewriters, paper, all that kind of thing. So there was a woman in June's office who was suspect.

of espionage. And she ended up being a, I think she was used as some sort of a decoy. It was never clear to me exactly how it went down, except that June was walking home one night, and she was very afraid because she was worried that something bad was going to happen relating to this woman being suspected of espionage.

And she remembers that at a certain point going home, suddenly there were all these, cars and federal agents. And then when she went to the work the next day, every trace of that woman was gone from the office. And she never saw her again. And of course, espionage was a very real threat in World War II. The strangest part of it was, of course,

and I guess a sad commentary on how people judge each other, the Japanese were put in internment camps in California. and I believe in other places in the southwest, we were actually under far more espionage threat from the Germans than we were ever under threat from the Japanese. Right. And nobody... We were not rounding, you know, German immigrants up in camps

and then making them fight our wars, right? Exactly, exactly. And, of course, we don't like to admit it, but there was actually some people in the United States were advocating either that we stay completely out of World War II, or even that we should be on the side of the axis. I mean, we forget that. We want to think that, you know, eventually, obviously the country was united in World War II,

probably at a level that it has never been united since. But it wasn't always that simple. So June was part of all of these times. And so I loved all these little anecdotal stories that she told me about what it was like to work there, what it was like to live there. You know, she told me about how you couldn't, you know, you couldn't take your spouse to an office party. Why is that? Well, because the people might talk about something classified.

Very good point. Yeah, that didn't even dawn on me. So simple. Now, everybody has to be, have the same level of security clearance and access. And she took that very seriously, and you had to. And she showed me, I have a copy of a document that she signed. that said that, you know, she could be sent to prison or fine $10,000 for disclosing anything that she had seen or heard while she worked there. And so, you know, in point of fact, June did take a risk by telling me what she told me.

Now, of course, one of the reasons that they don't go after people like this would be that if they went after June, because she disclosed things about UFOs, that would be like proving that what she had to say was real. Exactly. The lengths in which they went would, again, like you mentioned at the top of our conversation, you know, almost the actions and the denial is almost far more voluminous than June something else. Yeah. So they're smart enough not to fall into that trap. Right. Well, James, let's get to some of that UFO information that June brought to you. Now, the first one that really stuck out to me, what she touched, this piece, this metal, this material. Yes. Would you mind running us through this sort of first key point? As I recall, she thought that one of the people who the person involved might have been named Lieutenant Rose.

Unfortunately, there are too many Lieutenant Roses, but she was, you got a picture, June, tall, intelligent woman in a predominantly male environment. She's doing her work, an officer stops by her office, starts kind of flirting with her and making casual conversation. reaches into his pocket and pulls out something about the size of a business card and it's metal. And he says, June, you're a good worker, tear this up. And meaning take the scissors and do whatever damage you can. Well, not too surprisingly, she can't cut it, she can't pierce it, she can't dent it, you can't do anything to it. And if you wad it up into a ball, it returns to its original shape.

like water flowing back and there's no wrinkling, there's no anything, and the metal weighs almost nothing. This, of course, is the memory metal, the holy grail of uphology. So she says, what is this? And the guy looks at her and says, it's a piece of a spaceship. And she goes, oh, come on, what is it really? And he goes, it's a piece of a spaceship. and about that time somebody else starts to walk through the area,

he gets fearful, grabs it, sticks it into his pocket, and then does one of these, we weren't really talking-type looks, you know, and then he leaves. So that's, you know, that's the whole story. It's tantalizing because of how it fits into the rest of the history of uphology. She told me the way that it fits in, is one of the first bombshells that she dropped on me that I had never heard from anybody else, although I later heard this several years later from key researchers.

June said that by the time she left the government's employ in 1952, the Air Force had been involved in not one, but three crash retrievals of UFOs, Roswell being one. Only one of them. Okay. And that's, you know, that's one of the bombshells that came to me. Well, then, of course, we have some other interesting anecdotes. Probably the best one is, aside from the memory metal incident, is that one of the things that June gave me was a very faded polaroid of some test pilots. And she said that they became friends with these pilots.

And they would talk to people that were aviators that were going in and out of, of, of, right. And of course, most of the planes are cargo planes. You know, they're carrying people and freight in and out of this increasingly important base. I mean, you can go back and look at the statistics that, you know, in the beginning, by the time World War II was over, right Patterson Air Force base on an average day was as big as a medium-sized city in terms of thousands of civilian employees, a hub of military activity related to aviation research and development. I mean, this became the heart of the Air Force. It still is in many ways. I would also add parenthetically, have you ever been to the right museum?

Life experience is an excellent teacher. It's time you get the recognition you deserve for those hard-earned lessons. Purdue Global values the experience working adults bring to the table, Whether you're interested in a rapidly growing field like cybersecurity, business, nursing, or any of Purdue Global's other 170 programs, earning the credentials you need may be faster than you think. Try our experience calculator to see if you could be eligible for course credit and start your comeback today at Purdueglobal.edu. No, I have not. I passed through Dayton briefly, James, but I wasn't able to actually stop and go there. I got to go there and I wished I would have had a couple more days. But I will tell you, and this is free, this is the finest aviation museum I have ever been in. It was awesome on a level that I didn't even imagine.

I mean, I got to look at a reproduction of the plane that the Wright brothers flew and later on in the tour, you actually get to stand next to a stealth bomber that's parked on the floor. I remember I went to an air show in my hometown of Syracuse, New York once where there was a bomber. And we got to actually go up the little step ladder, you know, and look inside. And that moment changed my life, James. Like seeing this stealth technology for the first time, having had a UFO sighting only a couple years prior to this, when possibly what I'd seen that night was a stealth bomber, possibly. You know, I'll never know what I actually saw.

that was a pivotal moment for me as well. So being next to something like that, I can't imagine. Going from the Wright brothers up to a stealth bomber, that history gap is incredible. Well, they fill in all the gaps. And I have to say that that gives you. And that, of course, is just the museum that's attached to this huge, critically important Air Force base. But interestingly enough, from the get-go, almost every Roswell researcher, says that the key pieces of wreckage and bodies went to write.

Right. That's what we've been told, yes. And June's story fits right in with that because she talked about how one day one of the pilots came in, and he was looking very distraught and very tired out. And he was telling them during their kind of coffee room conversation that he had flown in from New Mexico with bodies and wreckage. So when he said bodies, they started questioning him about who had died, thinking that he was going to say the name of someone that they knew.

And this conversation goes on far enough that this pilot realizes that they're not understanding him at all. And he says, you don't understand. They're not human. And we're talking about, you know, child-sized bodies, big heads, the classic description. And, and I mean, James, you've personally spoken to Glenn Dennis, am I correct, about the whole body thing as well? Yes.

This might be a good tie-in here. Well, that's an interesting thing, and it actually relates to June. I ended up going to New Mexico at first because my wife and I wanted to go someplace that neither one of us had ever been before, and we ended up settling on the southwest, and that has been one of the best decisions we ever made. Well, we ended up going to Roswell, and along the way, I decided that I was going to donate a copy of the June Crane transcript. I had not written the book yet. I just made up a really well-printed, precise copy of the transcript. By the way, I used a off-duty prosecutor's office secretary, who I paid to do the transcription, because she's a

She's a legal transcriptionist to get her to transcribe the interview. That's how I got it for the book. I'm not good enough at transcribing, nor do I have the patience to sit there and type every word. But these people do it for a living. So I wanted to get everything as precise as possible. And getting that part was essential. Right.

Absolutely. Okay. So we have, let's talk a little, I guess, you know, in terms of the bodies, Now, this is interesting because we have the whole test dummy theory that came out with Project Mogul in 1997, and June actually had some knowledge on this whole test dummy thing too, right? Having worked on parachute projects and whatnot, could you maybe sort of run us through that whole aspect? Well, the number one thing, the number one reason why there's, well, actually there's several really good reasons. The main reason why that's not an explanation for Ron.

Oswell is that they didn't start doing the dummy drops until the mid-50s. And the other one is the dummies that they were dropping, if you imagine an articulated mannequin that looks like a six-foot-high GI Joe complete with a steel pot helmet and has a little tag on it that says, if found, please return for a reward. Now, if you think that that looks like an alien, well, I don't know what to say. but that's what the dummies look like. They were doing entirely legitimate research to test out various kinds of parachutes. You know, that is completely correct military research, and June spent a lot of time with the parachute division.

So she knew a lot of the ins and outs of it. I ended up, when they did Roswell case closed, I've got a file in here where I actually contacted the officer who is now retired who was in charge of the Parish, the Dummy Drop Project. And interestingly enough, he is angry at the Air Force for not giving him credit for the work that he did because he says that they misused his work by using it as the explanation for the Roswell UFO crash. Whereas he's saying, I did serious work for you guys. You know, I was doing research.

I was in charge of a project. And instead of honoring my work, all you've done is use it as an alternative explanation for a UFO crash. That's a pretty powerful statement. I mean, that pretty much proves the cover-up right there, amongst many other aspects to the cover-up. Oh, yeah. It's clearly a cover-up. But anyway, June had this story about this test pilot, and, you know, they were all shocked when he said that. But later on, what was even stranger was that on the same day, later on in the day,

they're going back and they're doing their usual clerical tasks. Here comes a courier with something that was called, and June had the right phrasing. I had never heard this phrasing before, but it came back at me from another source, something called a too hot memo. A too hot memo meant that this isn't like having the base commander send out an email because you've got to bear in mind there are no personal computers and email did not exist back then. So how would you do a very important mail message back then? Well, you send a courier to every single employee

and they are required to stop what they are doing and immediately read and acknowledge this memorandum from the commanding officer. That is a too hot memo. And it said that some irresponsible person had been discussing bodies and flying saucers, and you will cease and desist immediately or face imprisonment and fines.

So, I mean, that raises a whole bunch of questions. How would the base commander know about the conversation that June had with the pilot? How many conversations were going on? Maybe there was more than one person I mean, obviously, he didn't fly back by himself. He was part of a flight crew. And maybe his wasn't the only plane.

We don't know any of that. Yeah, yeah, good point. Why would all the wreckage be on one, you know, one cargo? It probably wouldn't be. Yeah. Like, let's even to make it even harder for anyone to trace, let's spread it out. Let's put it at different places. Like, you just don't know.

We don't know. And that's the problem. So, you know, I always, I like the word tantalizing because that's what describes a lot of the information that I got from June. I mean, I wish that she had lived longer. I wish that I could have asked her about 10,000 more questions. I don't know that she would have known any more than what she gave me. I mean, there's no way I can ever know that. But, you know, like I said, she was very careful to always say, I don't remember that.

or, you know, I didn't know that. Like she told me that the bodies, people said that the bodies from the crash went to the Arrow Med Lab. I asked her, I said, well, did you ever go there? She said, no, I had no reason to go there and you couldn't get in. Whereas you not only have to have the right security clearance, you have to have a need to know. Right, which, you know, even our top officials and presidents standing presidents don't even have the need to know many times. compartmentalized security. Yeah.

Yeah. So I would imagine, yeah, why would she have the clearance to, especially, you know, there's a big difference between possible wreckage, metal alloys, anything like that, and victims of a crash or bodies of a possible ET. Yeah, the gap is huge when it comes to that. Well, I mean, another thing that really stood out for me, James in the transcriptions, was June's talk about Project Blue Book. and what this actually was in terms of kind of a smokescreen, I guess, would be a good way to put it.

Would you mind sort of running us through your conversation with her about Project Blue Book? It's relevancy and, I guess, irrelevancy when it comes to actual UFO investigation. Well, she verified for me what many others had long suspected, which was that the best cases were shunted off somewhere else. there were already regulations in place. As I recall, the acronym is Janap, J-A-N-A-P, there's a regulation that goes with that, that already had established a protocol for reporting UFOs to higher and higher levels of command. You've got the Twining memo. Nathan Twining ended up retired, I think he was a three- or four-star general.

He would have been June's boss. multiple levels above her in charge of the Air Materiel Command. And he wrote a memorandum to his boss that at the time that he wrote the memorandum, that memorandum was top secret. It has since, of course, been declassified and is one of the most interesting of all of the documents that are available from that period of time. because in there he says that the UFO phenomena is real and not fictitious. And then he goes on to describe that the craft are frequently described as circular and metallic,

and that they exhibit a performance technology that they can't duplicate and they have no idea who could. And so when you think about who this man was and the fact that he's writing to his boss, he would have been extremely careful about what he drew as a conclusion. So that's pretty solid evidence that something was going on or may still be going on. What do you make of her entire claims? Now, you know her now better than anyone in the field probably did. You were face to face with this woman.

You heard all of her stories, having the knowledge and experience as an investigator. with law enforcement, other Roswell investigators, you know, some of them don't put so much stock into the whole June Crane affair. So what would you say to those people who sort of detract this story? Well, I don't think that they've really studied her story, and they probably have not studied my claims about her. I don't make more or less out of her than she would have wanted. She was a very honest, sincere woman who went through some very important times, and she knew. bits and pieces of this entire puzzle, but not the whole thing. She never claimed that. She didn't claim, other than the time that she handled the medal, she didn't claim to be a smoking

gun witness. And when I met her, I went into her home, and she did have the biographies of Werner von Braun and whatnot, but she did not have two shelves of UFO books. She didn't know any of the rest of this. She was telling me based upon what she learned while she worked there. And I think that she tried to the best of her ability to give me a sincere and honest account. And I think I could have gotten her sworn in as a witness in any court of law. So that would be my answer. She is what she is. Her testimony stands, as do the testimonies of numerous other people. who know parts of the cover-up with a capital C. Right.

And it's just piecing those together that we're still trying to do up until today, which is challenging because all of our firsthand witnesses involved are pretty much gone at this point. You know, not exactly firsthand, but someone you met was both Glenn Dennis and Frankie Rowe. I would love to hear about those experiences. Well, when I took a copy of the June Crane transcript and I donated it to the UFO Museum, which is a converted theater on Main Street in downtown Roswell, I went in there and I explained who I was and that I wanted to donate this. They have a big research library, by the way, a very complete one. And I was met by Glenn Dennis of all people. And I was, you know, I knew the Glenn Dennis story, so I was like in awe that I would meet him.

And so I gave him the book and he told me that he really, he looked at it and he said, well, this has obviously been very carefully put together. And we will certainly put it in the library. And as his way of saying thank you, we got to go into an office and sit down and have coffee together with nobody else around. And that was fascinating to me. I got a chance to do the, you know, what kind of a witness is this? The saddest part of the Glenn Dennis story is that he admitted to me that he had lied to UFO researchers. And you will still hear UFO researchers who will swear up and down that this never happened.

I don't know. I wasn't there. I freely admit that. But here's how it was told to me. Glenn Dennis says he was a young man. He worked at the Ballard Funeral Home, which still exists on South Main Street in Roswell. And he gets a phone call from Walker Army Airfield. That was the name of the base there in Roswell, wanting to know how many child-sized coffins they had in stock.

And he said they only had one. And they said, that's not enough. Can you get more? and he said yes but it'll take a couple days. Later on that day, he gets another call where they wanted to know about how you would preserve a body that you found out in the desert without contaminating it. And he told them dry ice would be the best way to do it. The next part of the story is in small towns like Roswell was back then, they did not have a parametial. ambulance service.

If you called for an ambulance, you got the hearse. Because if you think about it, the hearse is the only kind of a vehicle that's set up to carry somebody on a stretcher. So he ended up, there was an airman who was injured in a motorcycle accident. He drives him back to the base after the guy's been treated at the hospital. When he gets there, there are like way too many vehicles in people beyond normal. And everybody is really upset. There's like a busy beehive, a hornet's nest that's been stirred up.

He goes in there and he had free access to the place. This is, you know, this is 1947. It's a small town. Everybody knows everybody. He's been on and off that base many, many times, dropping people off, picking them up, you name it, et cetera. He goes in there and there are all these people that he's never seen before. He goes by this one particular room.

The door opens, and there is this young nurse who he has friends with. Now, I don't know. Glenn was married for many years, and I have no idea whether he was unfaithful to his wife, had an affair with this woman, whatever. No, that's been speculated on too. All I know is that he really cared about this woman and he was friends with her. Okay. She comes out of this room and she says, Glenn, you've got to get out of here right now.

And he says, well, what's going on? He says, you just got to leave. You've got to get out of here right now. And he takes her advice and starts to leave. And he gets confronted by some military people who want to know who he is and why he's there and everything else. And he basically tells him off and says, you know, I'm a civilian and I can, you know, do whatever I want. And I don't have to answer to you. And there's some officer in charge who makes the comment, you know, you can.

can be taken out in the desert and your bones will bleach in the sun like anybody else's. So he leaves, needless to say, and a few days later he finally gets to socialize with this nurse. And I think they're back on the base and they're having a beer and she is really, really upset. And she said that she did not get the phone call telling her not to report to work and that she had gone into work. and when she was there, there were all these people that she didn't recognize, and she ended up being ordered to participate in an autopsy. And it was an autopsy of an alien. And she actually sketched some things on a cocktail napkin.

And when Glenn wanted to keep the napkin, she set fire to it in the ashtray. And the part that gets complicated is she resigned her commission and left the service and literally became a nun. Glenn swore to her that he would never reveal her identity. Glenn's story is that in the, I believe, the early 80s when the Roswell story started to break, he felt that he was being harassed by UFO researchers. And in order to get rid of them, he made up a name for the nurse, instead of just saying, I'm not going to identify her because I promised her I wouldn't.

And he told me that that was one of his biggest regrets was that he told that lie. He said he should have never done it because it just made everything worse. So that was the Glenn Dennis story. And I walked away with a whole new level of respect and appreciation. And I guess it was the same kind of feeling that I had when I was. would sit up late with June and I would hear these stories about what it was like in 1947. It was like getting a little window into another time period.

He was a what you see as what you get kind of a man. He was a gentleman who grew up in the southwest. A man's word is his bond. You know, you make a promise, you keep a promise. Did he lie? Yes, he lied. He admitted that he lied. I don't know what to make of that.

I guess history will have to decide. Frankie Roe was an unexpected, wonderful event that happened in 2017. It was sad that she passed away not too long after we met her and got to know her, but I never expected to have this experience. I had met Frankie Roe a couple times because there were about three years there where we went back to Roswell every year for the UFO festival. And then, of course, while you're there, you present, and then you also have a table, and people come by,

and they look at your books, and you get to talk to everybody, and it's kind of fun. Well, I had met Frankie Roe because she had, everybody loved her. She was a friend of the UFO movement and of the museum in particular. Well, they always have a parade every year during the Roswell UFO Festival, festival, and they take all the speakers and the key people and they put them on a float, and you drive around with thousands of people on the sidewalk, and there's fireworks and lights and kids in alien costumes.

I mean, it's a big deal. It's a lot of fun. I sat next to her while we were in this parade, and we got to swap life stories, and I told her, needless to say about June. Well, this woman is in her 80s, and just recounting the story of what happened to her when she was 12 years old, you could still see the fear in her eyes and feel how terrified she was because of this event. And back when she was 12 years old, her father was a fireman for the city of Roswell, and they lived in town. And while she was coming home one day, she stopped by her father's place of work to get a ride.

She had been to the dentist. And there was a New Mexico state policeman there who was showing off this weird metal that he had found somewhere. And there was talk about a crashed vehicle, et cetera. Well, this was extraordinary, and she got to handle the medal, and she was very impressed by this. She was not quite so impressed when not too long thereafter. She was home with her mother, and a military officer and two other soldiers showed up at her home and basically pushed their way into the house and started telling her mother and her that under no circumstances would they ever discuss anything about a crashed UFO or the metal.

and he, this man, look right at Frankie Roe. Bear in mind she's a 12-year-old girl and says that if she ever talked about it, he would come back and murder her and her entire family and take them out in the desert and get rid of their bodies. Now the weird part is that years later, that one of the places she lived, the phone company came out to do a repair and the repairman came to her afterwards and showed her that somebody had put a tap on her phone. I mean, this is strange stuff.

Very strange. And I've heard this from other members of prominent families involved with this case as well. Exactly. And the part that was a good part of this story is that one day a man showed up on her door with a bouquet of flowers. And he said, I am the son of that officer. who threatened you when you were 12 years old. And he said that his father was a very brutal man and that he was there to apologize and make amends.

And so that, you know, that's just a whole fascinating piece of history. And it turned out we were all staying in the same hotel there in Roswell. And the next morning we all had breakfast together before we went our separate ways. and I got this wonderful photo of my wife Joanne and Frankie sitting together at a table. And that may be one of the last, if not the last photos that was taken of her because she passed away peacefully in her sleep just a couple of weeks later. And she was an amazing lady and a lovely, bright spirit. And I felt really honored to meet her. and there's see when I hear you know you you mentioned the word Roswell to some people and they

kind of laugh and they talk you know you'll hear all the usual cliches about little green men blah blah blah and then to me when I hear the word Roswell aside from the fact that I love that town it's a wonderful little city I think about an investigation that has been going on for over 30 years that involves over 600 witnesses with interlocking testimony. You know, do we have the smoking gun? Well, if somebody does, I wish they would bring it out. We probably don't. But we know that something really extraordinary crashed on Mac Brazel's ranch on the July

4th weekend of 1947. And we know that the military went to extreme lengths to recover. everything and to cover up all trace of that event, threatening people, picking up wreckage, monitoring citizens for years illegally. I mean, it goes on and on and on. We know that that's a real event. And I think in particular that's thanks to Don Schmidt and Tom Carey, who themselves are not free of controversy.

You know, people expect all of us euphologists are. UFO researchers to always make perfect decisions and always know everything and whatnot. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint people, but all of these people, myself included, we are also living our lives. And we don't always have total knowledge, and we don't always make the correct decision. And I'm speaking in reference to, you know, Tom, Terry and Don Schmidt, the Roswell Slides debacle. Yes.

Which we could, you know, you probably did do one show or more about that. Yes, I have. You know, that was a UFO horror story from one end to the other and a valuable lesson that we apparently have still not learned. That should not take away from the wonderful, detailed, extremely exhaustive research that was done by those two men to, to put together the Roswell story. I'm very honored that they included the June story. But again, just, you know, having that story now a part of the Roswell history, I think, is very important. Because yet it is.

It's one more person willing to come forward. Like you said, while a lot of people perceive the Roswell case as, you know, this festival they have every year, little green men, this quirky feeling to it. This was life for death for a lot of these people, James. The way they were planning, the cover up everything. So I guess I want to sort of wrap up Roswell with this one question for you before we move on here of, do you think we still have a chance of knowing what happened out there? Do you think there's still material out there somewhere hidden in that desert that we can find that can be that smoking gun?

Or is this going to be the case that mystifies us until, you know, we all part this earthly plane. What do you think? I know that's a big hypothetical. Boy, that's a huge hypothetical. In terms of finding wreckage out there, I would defer to my good friend, Frank Kimbler, who does tremendous research out there and is thoroughly a scientist. And so far, he has not found any wreckage that would pass the smell test.

And I think if anybody's going to find it, will. Did they make a mistake somewhere and maybe they left something behind? God, I hope so. I don't know that we're ever going to get the truth about Roswell or about UFOs until one of two things happens. One thing is if some other event is so overwhelmingly obvious that they have to come clean about contact with non-human intelligence, in other words a an arrival day, something that is so big that they can't put it under wraps. And they managed to do that pretty well with the Phoenix Lights, so it would have to be pretty spectacular.

The other thing is if in the process we get evidence that they cannot get rid of or dispute because it is in their best interest to disclose it, then they will tell us something. You got to remember, they're not going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They're going to do it because there is a political, strategic or military reason to disclose. That's their job. You know, it's not, they don't see

things the way we do. You know, they would tell you, well, their job is to protect us and that there's some national security or intelligence reason, why they need to conceal this story and or use it to manipulate the situation. See, we are also part of the game. Everybody, you and I, everybody in the UFO community, we are also subject to manipulation. And that's one of the hardest things is to know when you're being plagued. So, no, I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon, but I'm not giving up on it. I'm excited for the future of investigating Roswell and beyond, but at the same time, it is sobering as well to know that possibly we never may get that answer. So many researchers have left this world not knowing what happened at Roswell or not getting the truth they sought for so long.

So it is a game, a game that we don't know really who is in control of, whether it's a non-human intelligence, whether it's, you know, military, governmental. It's all just one big game that we're all playing and trying to figure out. So, well, where can we find out more about what you're up to, James? Well, I do have, I'm pretty active on Facebook. I would also invite people to go to James Clarkson, UFO.com. I have two email addresses, UFO reality, all one word, at comcast. dot net or UFO detective at hushmail.com

Perfect. Well, James, I can't thank you enough for coming on today. You know, this has been an interview I've been wanting to do since I started somewhere in the skies. And after meeting you in person, I knew you were one of the good people out there fighting the good fight, looking for, like we said, that beef in the burger. if we want to go that way. And it was such an honor to get you on to talk about June Crane, Roswell, the future of euphology. And just with this conversation alone, it shows me that the future is bright.

So again, my friend, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Ryan, sincerely, for the work you're doing too. Thank you for joining us somewhere in the skies. Please take a moment to rate and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever possible. You can find us across all social media. by searching for Somewhere in the Skies. Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague here, host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes,

the Summer in the Skies podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your Somewhere in the Sky's feed. To become a premium Apple, subscriber or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options

give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies HQ and help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. And keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome everybody to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprague. And today we're going to be talking to two very important people who are starting on a brand new television series that is premiering on the History Channel on December 12th. And that is history's greatest mysteries narrated by Lawrence Fisher. And

within the context of this series, there's going to be a few mini-series, and one of those is about a case near and dear to my heart, as I know it is many of yours as well, and that is Roswell. And it is Roswell First Witness. And with me today is the lead investigator of the show, Ben Smith, who is a former CIA operative, which we will definitely touch on, and also the granddaughter of the first military witness to step foot on the Roswell crash site. And that is Denise Marcel. So guys, welcome to somewhere in the skies. Thanks so much for being here. Hi. Thank you for having us. Yeah, this is a trip. Thank you, Brian. It's great. My pleasure. I mean, like I mentioned, this case means so much to so many people out there.

It's kind of their gateway drug into the UFO world. And I know it was for me as well. The first book I ever read on UFOs was by nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman who wrote Crash at Corona. So, you know, not only were UFOs supposedly visiting our planet from somewhere else, but they were crashing. And that terrified me as a 12-year-old. So it's been a tailspin for me since there. But I'm sure this has been a crazy experience for the both of you as well. So I kind of just want to dive into the show and your investigation, Ben, what you guys uncovered. We won't give away too much, obviously.

But, Ben, for my audience, you know, I don't think they've really ever seen you before. or heard from you unless you've been tapping their phones in your previous life and everything. But I'm just kidding, brother. I'm just kidding. But yeah, can you tell us a little about yourself? You know, the work you did for the CIA. And yeah, what led you to want to investigate the Roswell case of all things? Yeah, it's a long story. I'll try to keep it short. But my name is Ben Smith from the Pacific Northwest. I joined the CIA out of graduate school to, you know, serve my country. to learn about the intelligence process, do my best to prevent terrorist attacks and, you know, before an espionage against our country. I was what's called a case officer for a number of years.

Case officer in Hollywood parlance is the undercover field operative. So I largely worked overseas, recruiting and handling sources. We call them agents or assets to collect intelligence that might be useful to the U.S. government, you know, preventing terrorist attacks or for, affording espionage against our businesses and governments or weapons of mass destruction, right, global danger. So I really cut my teeth in the field dealing with a lot of individuals claiming they had access to pretty fantastic information. You know, it could be somebody approaching me and saying, hey, I know where some radioactive

material is. Hey, I know there's a terrorist attack coming. You need to listen to me. And sifting through all of these kinds of people, right, who sometimes want to help and sometimes want to hurt me or others. And getting to the bone, you know, is this really true and is it useful and can we do something about it? So I really cut my teeth doing that kind of work for the CIA. I resigned from the CIA a couple of years ago to just pursue other interests.

One, my wife, now wife, and two, to really explore really what else is out there. And to ponder those big questions. And one of the first things I turned my eye to was, okay, UFOs, what's it? about? Why do people all around the world have these experiences and is there really any there there? I'd grown up in, this is already too long, sorry, I'd grown up in the 90s when awesome fiction like The X-Files and some of the programming on Unsolved Mysteries kind of captured my imagination and it took off from there and it's still a passion of mine to figure out what is happening. Is this a real national security threat? Is this a real national security threat and global security threat that we need to be

seriously. And we know, you know, recently within the past few years that the, the Pentagon has looked at that potential threat of what UFOs or what they're now coining UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomena, what they might be. And could they pose a potential threat? And I mean, talk about a threat when something crashed in the desert in 1947 that a lot of people, including your grandfather, Denise, couldn't figure out what it was. And this guy was a trained observer. He knew what to look for in the skies. It was his job. So let's kind of get your background, Denise. I mean, I'm sure some people recognize you from the show that I was a part of in looking at Roswell. But yeah, could you tell us a little about your connection

to all of this? Even though I kind of spoiled the big part, you are the granddaughter. Yeah, surprise everyone. But yeah, tell us a little about yourself. Well, like you said, my grandfather was Jesse Marcel Sr. He was a lieutenant colonel when he retired. And he was the first military officer at a crash site in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. And he found that the material was just so intriguing, and it just didn't make any sense to him, that on his way back to the base, he decided to show the material. to my grandfather and, or excuse me, to my father and to my grandmother.

And he did say these words to them. He goes, I think what we have here are pieces of a flying saucer. And he believed that until the day he passed away, that what they found out there in the desert was a flying saucer, just because the material just didn't make any sense to him. Right, right. And I mean, the story kind of just unraveled from there. We know about the famous headline that came out in the newspaper.

You know, R-A-A-F finds flying disc in desert or something along those lines. I know I have it actually right here on my mug. I should probably show that to everyone here. That's wonderful. I'm no poser, I promise. This case needs a lot to me. But let's talk a little about the investigation, Ben, that you guys did. And it kind of starts with the first episode of the show,

which I am very thankful to have been, to have screened recent. you talk about the journal. And this is something some of us have speculated and maybe rumored throughout the years that there could be this written account or something to do with this in the journals of Jesse Marcel. And lo and behold, boom. We won't give away too much. But yeah, tell us a little about what this journal meant to both of you. Ben, as an investigator and Denise, as something tangible and first person from your

grandfather. I guess, Ben, let's start with you if you don't mind. Yeah, I mean, an intelligence business, the first thing you want is the best thing you can get is is firsthand documentation, right? Whether that's, you know, the secret, the secret plans of, you know, the enemy or the terrorist group or what have you. And here I had a chance to give my hands on a firsthand document belonging to a military member or in the possession of a military member who was the key witness, the first witness, government witness on the scene in Roswell in 1947. So there's a lot of importance there. You know, when I got a chance to open that book, it really fascinated me.

I'm someone who has used subterfuge and, you know, clever, who's used clever techniques to hide sensitive information to carry out my own operations. But here I have a book, and as soon as I crack it open, I can see already that there's a lot of room and it follows a lot of the procedures that I've been trained to use in terms of hiding information. potentially. So that immediately caught my eye and, you know, that became the foundation of my investigation. Can I authenticate the prominence of this document? Is it real, legitimate? And what does it tell us? So that kind of was the, yeah, it was the basis for the investigation and really expanded from there. And fortunately, I got to work with Denise all along the way. Right. And I mean, the examination in a done on the journal is something we won't get into. You have to see it.

But it packed a punch. I mean, you guys went straight to the top with people to analyze the hand writing and to possibly decode some stuff that could be a little more mysterious side within the contents of the journal. But Denise, what was it like looking at this and hearing about it as Ben was also investigating it? I mean, I mean, this came straight from your grandfather. Well, you know, the journalist, it's a very, it's very intriguing. I guess that's the best word to describe it because what's written in there sort of just doesn't make sense.

So with having Ben look at it from a different perspective of, you know, of a CIA background, it lends to, I think it makes it even a little bit more mysterious because it just, some of it just doesn't make sense. Maybe it was meant to be cryptic and that we weren't supposed to understand what it was saying because there's just some odd stuff in it. It's, yeah, I don't know how else to describe it. I'm just really happy that we have somebody taking a different look at it, you know, other than our family and having somebody from the CIA actually who has a knowledgeable background about looking at analyzing something that's kind of cryptic. Right. Yeah. You know, it looks like regular, like, little poems or something like that, but then it's like, what, why was he writing this?

It kind of doesn't make sense. Right. And this was from a standard, you know, provided journal that the military gave to him. So, I mean, that lends a lot of credence, too. And, yeah, we will leave the audience to figure out and try to decode some of that stuff has Ben tried to do as well. But I want to move to. kind of the core of this investigation, which I have done personally, so many UFO researchers

out there, like Stanton Friedman or Don Schmidt, who was featured in your show as well, have gone out to the debris site. Now, that's a whole story of its own. There's so many proposed crash sites that people have claimed to go to out there and whatnot. But I mean, Ben, when you were out there, man, it looked very, very similar, as similar as a vast desert Ken look to me as the actual place, which was awesome. So I'd love to hear what was it like, man, for you stepping foot on what could possibly be where a UFO, no matter what that UFO was or wasn't, where it possibly crashed and was subsequently covered up, which we'll get to.

But yeah, what was that experience? Like going out to the site and what did you guys do out there? I got to ask, what kind of tools did you bring? This is a very high-tech investigation, which we're not used to, which is, really exciting. So yeah, let us give us some teases on that. You don't like. Oh man, it was a thrill to be out there. I'd never been to New Mexico before. It was my first time, especially to the debris field. You know, I've read about it. I've read many of the works that you cited by Stan Friedman and Don Smith and Kevin Randall and all the other great

researchers who put a lot of work into piecing to this puzzle together. But being out there for the first time was pretty incredible. You know, whether or not a UFO crash year or not, it really is the genesis of neufology in the United States and a global culture for UFOs and government conspiracy. And so you have to give it that space, that kind of reverence. It's beautiful, it's desolate. You know, you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone like Jesse Marcel or Mack Brazzell to be out on that field and really be alone.

with this strange debris and it really takes you there and kind of haunts you in a way. But yeah, we took, you know, we tried to give this a really thorough investigation with all the resources. We didn't want to just turn over new leaves and say, oh, this is a potential new lead and not take it, right? We need to follow every lead and chase it into the ground and then see what shakes out of it, what evidence can we present, what can we find. We wanted to change the conversation. And so we brought every tool, I can't give away too much about what kinds of tools, but we brought every tool that we could to the debris field to see if we could find, A, any potential degree, B, evidence of a cover-up, and C, and or see evidence of

a large-scale cleanup. So, you know, over time, even after 70 years, with the right technology, you can tease out some of those details. So that was our goal in bringing out some of the heavy-duty equipment and, you know, unprecedented technology to the field. Right. Right. And again, that's... what I found so refreshing about this. You know, when I did a televised investigation as well, you're always hesitant with these things. And Denise, I mean, you've seen and heard it all. If you can't bring something new to the Roswell case, what's the point? And so, you know, we did our best to bring new stuff to the table, as you guys did as well. And I think that's

amazing that after 70 plus years, we can still look at this case with fresh eyes and hopefully someday get an answer that I know, Denise, you have wanted. your father wanted, your grandfather wanted. So it's awesome. I think it's so cool that people are still willing to look into this case and uncover things as they happen. And you did bring up the word cover-up, and I would love to touch on that with both of you.

I mean, Ben, you know, you know after looking at this thing, like there clearly was a cover-up of some sort. And I'd like to get your observations on that. But Denise, first, what was? was it like, you know, with your grandfather and your father also having touched this debris at one point, the cover-up and what the military did to your father, or excuse me, what the military did to your grandfather in all this from a personal standpoint. You know, as I, this has been a, actually, this show has been a real journey for me.

It's gotten me in touch with some of my relatives a lot closer than I was previously. that actually knew my grandfather, their family knew my grandfather, and he had talked to them about what he experienced and everything. And from a personal point of view, I just feel like in some respects the government really let down my grandfather. I mean, he was made to be the fall guy. And I think it was more of a burden on him than what I realized. I think it affected him. And I know what affected my grandmother too quite a bit. It was just, I think that there was no, I don't know if redemption is the right word for it. But it's just, you know, when you have people calling you names and saying that you're crazy and that you don't know what you're talking about when he knew exactly what he was talking about and he knew that he was telling the truth, it's hard to live with that.

And I just want somehow for my grandfather's name to be really clear of this, because I believe what he found out there was something that wasn't from here. And I think it's time for our government to come out and tell us what exactly did happen out there. Now, Ben, what does that mean to someone like you in the intelligence world when it comes to this, covering things up? I mean, there are those out there who argue, yeah, there was probably a really good reason for this to be covered up. And others who say, no, we deserve to know the truth. And it would be vindication for someone like Jesse Marcell who knew, well, this was not a weather balloon, as it's been quoted. So for you, what would a cover up of this level? Why do you personally think the government would do this when it comes to the Roswell crash?

It's important to keep in mind that this is the center of national security and the entire country in 1947. All the most important secrets, all the most important technological developments of the World War II and the immediate aftermath happened here in New Mexico. So anything that happens here is going to cause reverberations across the U.S. government. Now, intelligence services around the world have flimsy and sometimes damaging cover stories to cover their operational requirements or missions. or when disaster happens to sweep things under the rug, I myself have used cover stories in the field, and they're very effective at protecting national security sources and methods. And so I don't have too many,

I don't have a bone to pick with the government for covering up whatever crashed out there, because obviously it was important, whether we'd go with the mogul explanation that this was an alien-de-sine device for Soviet atomic testing, or whether it's an alien spacecraft, or some other experimental craft. There's a good reason to have a cover story,

but that comes at a cost. And here it came at, you know, Jesse Marcel's immediate health and the health of his family members. And his grandchildren as well are still dealing with the cost of this cover-up. Why the government decided to lead with, if it's not real, if it's not a UFO crash, why would the government decide to lead with an alien, a UFO crash cover story? That to me sounds explosive, counterproductive, because it would draw more attention to whatever crashed out there.

So there's some lingering questions. If that was your go-to response, it wasn't a very good one, and it certainly wasn't effective, because here 70 years later, we're still dealing with the aftermath. And, you know, to my mind, the government still hasn't convincingly come out with a credible explanation of what really crashed there. So there are a lot of questions. I commit this as a neutral euphologist. I haven't had any close encounters of my own. I have spent a lot of time working or talking to individuals who have,

but I think it's definitely a possibility, and as long as it's a possibility, we need to take it seriously. So that's the lens that I view this at. I haven't arrived to any decisive conclusion yet about what happens there, but I know that there are still lies being told. And how do we get to the truth of that? I think by continuing to investigate and continually to pressure our government to respond effectively. Right. And I think, you know, data and evidence is the strongest thing we can have. And it's good to see that's still happening. At this point, we have third, fourth hand stories that we cannot verify or fact check. I mean, unfortunately, many of the firsthand witnesses are gone at this point.

So all we really have to rely on is strong witness testimony and the data. And, I mean, this reverberated throughout not just your family, Denise, but I mean, so many in the town as well were told to keep silent. We're threatened. Mac Brazzell, the rancher who found the original debris. I mean, this ruined this guy's life from what I was told. I mean, he became depressed and kind of an alcoholic after that. And like you said, Ben, this has real world effects. on the people involved. And I think your show really touches on that human aspect to it as well in

bringing in all of the children and once children, I should say, right, Denise? And I mean, it's such a powerful case and the fact that we can still look at it. I keep saying this is incredible. So kind of wrapping up specifics of the first episode that I saw. We won't get too deep into it. Again, we want people to figure it out from themselves. But There's also been rumors that there was wreckage possibly stored somewhere else. Someone had their hands on this, and it's been hiding for years. I've heard it. Don Schmidt, everyone involved with this case has heard this at one point or nothing,

but nobody has been able to find it. So I have to ask, is this something that you guys are looking into? And what can we expect on the front of possible records still being out there somewhere? I mean, I personally think that there's, I mean, something came down in the desert, so there's got to be a trail of that stuff somewhere. Somebody's got to have a piece of it somewhere. And I think it's very important that we try to find out where this is and bring it to light and examine it and have it studied. What do you think, then? Well, first I'd like to kind of pick a bone with Don Schmidt.

And I've done this to him to his face, and maybe we'll have this discussion next week at AlienCon. But he makes a lot of editorial assumptions in his research. Somebody knocked on the door and demanded the materials, right? Backbrazzle, Bill Brasel, a number of townspeople who said they had a piece was confiscated by unknown people at the door. And my one point that I would like to raise in this investigation is, well, do we know who they are? They didn't identify themselves. And if this really is a UFO crash, every government of the world is going to want a piece of this.

So those with operatives in the United States at the time, and there were, we know there were in New Mexico, providing information to the Soviets may have also been impersonating government personnel to get a piece of this. So if we don't have it here, we need to broaden our scope and really challenge which government might have a piece of this

and do our best to track that down because it's still an open question. And like, I agree with Denise 100% that there is a piece of this aircraft or there is a piece of this craft somewhere. And that's a key part in kind of solidifying for me personally in deciding or making my best guess what happens i'm still i'm still in search of that evidence uh we have some real good leads at the end of season one and um you know the journey

is not over as far as i'm concerned but it's a it's convincing and we and we give it the due diligence the rigorous analysis that it deserves awesome yeah and i mean again this is that carrot being dangled in front of us for 70 plus years so i mean i guess kind of bringing it to current day. UFOs are kind of in the mainstream like never before. New York Times, Washington Post, you know, various other news outlets around the world are covering this topic. In a way, they never really have before. You're not hearing the X-Files music played behind news broadcasts or, you know, the side-eyed glances and giggles. This is serious stuff. And our Pentagon created a task force to now look into it after being kind of forced in a corner to admit they had been

secretly investigating UFOs for, you know, eight plus years within the Pentagon. So I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on that. What does your show on the Roswell case and bringing forth all this new evidence, what does it mean for the world today when it comes to the entire UFO question? And it's kind of how this topic has been perceived throughout the years with a lot of stigma. whoever wants to jump in with that. Well, I just, I think it's, personally, I think it's being more well accepted today because it is more in the mainstream. I think that, I think it's just because there's, I don't know, I always, you know,

our national security is involved here too. So I think that we do need to know if we're being monitored or being watched from something that isn't from here. We should know that. And I think that as a citizen of earth, I want to know if we're being visited. I mean, after all, that is one of the biggest questions we can ask ourselves is, are we alone? I mean, I don't know the bigger question that we can ask ourselves. And I think that I'm just happy that it is coming out more in the mainstream media.

I'm glad that the Pentagon is coming forth with showing us stuff that, yes, if they have been, there was a task force. involved in this. Yeah, yeah. And again, you know, if, uh, if, if all comes to light someday, maybe we'll finally get those lost files on Roswell. But Ben, what do you think about this kind of new world we're living in with the UFO topic? I mean, I, I was afraid to talk about this with my friends for so many years that I was into this stuff. I, uh, I lost so many second dates after saying I was a UFO researcher. Um, but things are changing, man. They are changing all over the world with this. So yeah, what do you think your show has to contribute to the overall conversation

that we're having today about UFOs? Well, I'm continually surprised by the positive feedback I get from people across all spectrums who are curious about UFOs, who are reasonable, intelligent, educated people who have ideas about what is happening in our skies that I think deserves more credibility and more excitement about, honestly. These are questions that we should be pondering and preparing for. But I think it's exciting. You know, the U.S. government had denied these programs for a long time to come out and say that it is seriously researching

and putting together taxpayer dollars to investigate these topics. Really, really will do wonders for the field, but also I think they should be open to citizen engagement, right? We see that NASA is doing it, now with amateur data scientists sifting through, you know, mountains of terabytes for, you know, exoplanets and anomalies in space to find out. And I think the citizens can be a force multi-mortifier from the Pentagon and for the intelligence community. Probably a lot of bad apples and bad information, white noise, but also in there are some credible sightings, some

credible details that could be the key to really figuring out what is that craft in that video or what did that person see or why do we have this activity over this certain part of our country? Could do wonders for moving the research forward. Right. And I think what kind of sets apart what's happened today from something like Roswell in 47 is the government and the military didn't really know how to deal with this back then. And, you know, it's almost understandable that they would try to keep a lot of it under RAS if they didn't know what it was or what what's going on. Whereas today, like you mentioned, we have like citizen astronomers and just people sitting at home sifting, like you said, through data. And that goes for the UFO field as well.

Some of the most tenacious people out there are in shadows. Never, you know, they're not on television. They're not on podcasts. They're not in the mainstream media touting things. They're doing hard research and really making headway. I mean, there's new companies coming out. There's one we just started, the debrief, where we cover defense and technology. And, I mean, we broke a story yesterday about two of the reports that were leaked within the intelligence communities about what they're looking into in the current Pentagon Task Force. So, again, you know, whether I don't know your thoughts on stuff like that, then we were not the ones to find it.

It was provided to us by intelligence leaks. That's a whole other story. kind of, I guess, wrapping that up. Ben, what is it like as a former intelligence officer? What are your colleagues, former colleagues, your friends, your family? What do they think about you now looking at Roswell? I had to ask and put you on the spot about that. You know, it runs the gamut. Some intelligence colleagues, community, I see colleagues, are just wondering why, what am I doing?

Because it's not on the register of the spectrum of threats that they deal with. right now and to some degree. And others like, hey, run with it, man. You're always weird. You do you. So the feedback runs the gamut. And that was a professional question I had to ask myself. Like, what damage am I doing to my credibility by entering this space?

And I just thought it's important enough. It's interesting enough. The wonder, the possibility of intelligent life out there was enough to overcome those reservations and just dive right in. I think the field needs a voice like mine to really sift through and make sense of what we're seeing on the national security perspective. Can we rule out this event? Maybe it was a training exercise legitimately. Maybe it's an experimental aircraft, but maybe and possibly it's something else entirely.

We need to really own up to that possibility. Right. Yeah. And, you know, that maybe is what kind of keeps us going. And I mean, I'll say this, man, we need more people like you in this field. because we've kind of fought against people like yourself and vice versa for so long. And, I mean, I can't blame either side of that debate. To be honest, it is what it is.

But, I mean, that transparency within government, I think, is something that's really important for the world right now, especially here in America, you know, where a lot of people don't trust the government. They're not even trusting science. And, you know, we won't get into that sort of debate, but it is, it's hard. It's a challenge. And it's kind of been gradually happening where we have a mistrust in our government. And things like the Roswell cover up are reasons for that until we find out why it was covered up. And like you mentioned, there could be very good reasons for that.

So kind of wrapping that all up, guys, what can we expect in future episodes of Roswell First Witness? I know we dug into what was going to be in the first one, but anything you could tease for us about what's coming up on the show? That's dangerous territory It is, I know And I don't want to get you guys in trouble There's some different people that they've interviewed on it For the show I don't know

There's a gentleman that they interviewed That claimed to Have known my You know, met my grandfather And we're discussing pieces of the material That was a lead that followed down. It's very intriguing. I don't want to give anything away about that. We'll leave it at that, yeah. I'll add to that and say that, you know, if there's an important

piece of evidence to this story, we take a hard look at it and we bring new technology to interrogate it. So you're going to look at some of the established pieces of evidence, whether it's the rainy photo, whether it's the Marcel, you know, some of the Marcel photos or as interviews, we're going to get as investigative as we can and really look for that evidence in those hidden corners and see if we can learn something new. And we do. I feel like we do. The show really is exciting and it carries it through the end. It's worth watching all the way through the end. And I've been on TV before and I can't say that about other shows even I've been involved in. But this is one that I really feel passionately about. And I think it's going to be

successful. Awesome. I mean, if the first episode was in any indication, I think it really will. It's, it opened to my eyes to a lot more ways to look at this case, which is, like I said, so refreshing when it comes to the most famous and controversial case of all times. So I can't wait to see what comes next. And before we give the specifics on the show, this is always an active investigation. Even after the camera stuck rolling, I know, Ben, you're still looking into this. I am, Denise. I know. I know. you are as well because you want answers more than any of us for your grandfather especially who deserves that. But is there anywhere that people can reach out or connect with either of you if they have any leads or things to follow up with what you bring forth in in the show? I'm not sure, Ben. What do you think? I'll have a personal website. It's not up today, but it will be up soon, aka Ben Smith. You can find me there if you have any leads. I want to be a contributing partner, voice researcher in this investigation going forward,

and any leads would be super helpful. You can always contact the History Channel as well, and they can get a hold of us. And if we convince History Channel, and we can get more money to really investigate these things, which is where a lot of the magic happens. But it's been a trip regardless. And I think, as you mentioned, as you said, this is just, for me, it is just the starting point of an entire investigation into the UFO phenomenon and based around the Roswell incident. Yep, it all starts at Roswell and hopefully it'll come full

circle sooner than later. But once again, the show is Roswell First Witness. It premieres Saturday, December 12th on the History Channel at 9 p.m. Eastern Standard and Pacific. So everyone, please go check out the show. I can't wait to see. comes next and Ben and Denise, I have to thank you so much for joining me today on Summer in the Skies. Oh, thank you for having us. Thank you, Ryan. It's a treat. Real pleasure. Thanks, yours too. What does Ravs stand for anyway? To me, it's the remarkably advanced vehicle. Really? To me, it's the runway approved vehicle for its amazing style. What about remarkably adaptable vehicle because of its versatile cargo space? Or really admired vehicle? Oh, or really

awesome vehicle? It really is the recreation. Activity Vehicle. The stylish 2026 Toyota Rapp 4 Limited. What's your Rav 4? Greetings everyone, Ryan Sprague, our host of Summer in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create.

So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of, or Somewhere in the Sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content.

Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Sky's HQ and help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere's sky. or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. And keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies.

I'm your host, Ryan Sprague. AlienCon Los Angeles was one of the craziest experiences I've ever had. I met some amazing individuals who I'm sure you'll be hearing on the show in the very near future. While I didn't have time to get any interviews at the event, I did take part in several panels and live podcast recordings, one of which you're going to hear today. I was honored to both moderate and take part in a panel titled The CW's Mysteries Decoded, Roswell, and Beyond. Joining me in front of a live audience was consulting producer Alejandro Rojas,

executive producer Gary Tarpinian, my co-host and co-investigator, Jennifer Marlon Marshall and Denise Marcel, granddaughter of Jesse Marcel, the first military officer on site at the Roswell UFO crash. We give you the inside story on how the show came to be, our ongoing investigation of the Roswell incident, and then we discuss the upcoming series, Mysteries Decoded, premiering this August on the CW. That's right, you haven't seen the last to me just yet. Thank you to everyone who came out to Los Angeles for AlienCon, and a special thanks to those who attended the panel. And to all those listeners who introduced themselves,

I was so unbelievably touched and honored to finally meet you face to face. And I hope to meet more of you this October for AlienCon Dallas. To learn more, visit ThealianCon.com and be on the lookout for an exclusive Summer in the Sky's discount very soon. outro this week, so follow us on Twitter at SomewhereSkies and Instagram at SomewhereSkies pod. Subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever possible. And be sure to check out the merch store and represent the show in style. Go to tpublic.com and search for the Somewhere in the Skies store. That's teepublic.com. Last but not least, be on the lookout for a very special live recording of Somewhere in the Sky's witness accounts. That will be coming to you soon. In the

need time, enjoy this panel discussion, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Hi, guys, my name is Ryan Sprague. I am one of the co-investigators and co-hosts of that little clip you just saw there from Roswell Mysteries Decoded, which we're going to be talking about today with our panelists. We're also going to be talking about what was spawned from Roswell Mysteries Decoded, and that is a new series that's going to be premiering on the CW called Aptly Mysteries Decoded. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to our panel today.

First, we have Alejandro Rojas, and he is a consulting producer on the show. Alejandra. And for anyone that knows anything about the Roswell UFO incident, you're going to know this next person. This is the granddaughter of Jesse Marcel, the first military officer on site at the Roswell UFO crash. That's Denise Marcel. Denise? All right, next up, this is the man that made this all happen. the reason we're all standing up here today. One of the most caring producers I've ever met of the UFO phenomenon

and how it is treated in entertainment. And that is executive producer of Roswell, Mysteries Decoded, and creator of Mysteries Decoded, Gary Tarpini. And last but not least, my partner in crime, my co-host and co-investigator on Roswell Mysteries Decoded, and the host of Mysteries Decoded, Jennifer Marshall. All right, guys. Let's do this.

So we're going to start off with Roswell Mysteries Dakota, the one-hour special that premiered on the CW a few months ago. And all of you were connected to this project. So I think I'd like to start with Gary. How did this all come about? Where did your interest in UFOs start? Roswell, how did this project come to be? Well, I've always been interested in the topic, and it seems that it's never been more popular. and what really helped me get the show off the ground is I went to the show last year in Pasadena

and heard Ryan Sprague speak, and he sort of had me at hello. And I thought, all right, we need to do a UFO show, and it was a matter of figuring out what it was going to be. And then we had this wonderful opportunity where we brought it to the CW network, and the rest is history. Yeah, it happened so quick, and that's often how these things happen, and that's how we all get involved with it. And one of those people was Alejandro. Now, for those who don't know, I've been working with Alejandro for many, many years. He gave me my big break in the UFO field, working for his magazine, Open Minds magazine.

So Alejandro, how did you get involved with this? And what was your role with Roswell Mysteries Decoded? Yeah, I've been talking with Gary for quite a while for a few years now. He's been talking about his UFO interests. We've been talking about, you know, different ideas that he's been pitching out there. So I was very happy when they got this deal with CW to work on Roswell. And, you know, when we talk, they, of course, when they're producing shows like the research is the most important part. And so I felt it was important that we show two different things, that first of all, Roswell was a conspiracy and I'll explain why.

But second of all, that there's research, ongoing research that can happen. And I think that's what's important because a lot of people are like, Roswell, why do we need to talk? about Roswell. That was so long ago. What new is with Roswell? On the show, you saw what was new. There are people looking for metals and materials out in the desert. Any day someone could find something and we might, you know, prove scientifically that there's something out there that's truly mysterious. So that's important. Also, there's that image, you know, that was in the show with the memo that that general is holding. And what's on that memo? We still don't know. So hopefully the technology one day will

show us what's on there. But the other part, people don't realize, is that it is a conspiracy and the Air Force has admitted that. In their own documentation, they show that it wasn't the weather balloon. They know it wasn't the weather balloon. They admit, we don't know why.

They decided to cover it up and say it was weather balloon when it wasn't. Of course, we have this theory. It was a Moga balloon. That's not necessarily proven yet. But the point is, it was a conspiracy. So, if they're upset about people calling it a conspiracy, it's your own fault. Too bad.

All right. Now, Denise, when Gary approached me with this project, I was a lot like Alejandro. I was very skeptical. I'm like, what's new that we could really discover about Roswell? And I knew we were going to be going out to the crash site, which we will get to. I knew that we were going to be talking to a Earth scientist and geologists about metals we'd found. He had found out there. but when he said that we're going to be speaking to you,

one of the descendants of the Marcel family, that's when I was like, let's do this, let's do this. So how is that when Gary approached you to do this show? I'm sure this isn't the first time you've been approached with things like this to cover the legacy of your grandfather and your father, who were both directly involved with the Roswell UFO crash. You know, I was really happy when I was contacted about this. You know, anytime that I can get an opportunity to talk about what really happened out there,

I'll jump at that opportunity. And I was just really lucky that it was you guys, because you guys did an amazing job with this. You portrayed my grandfather and my father in a really good light, which I really appreciate, because it's, you know, it's a touchy subject. You know, like Alejandro was saying, you know, if you don't agree that it's a conspiracy,

it's definitely a conspiracy. My grandfather 100% said that was not what was in that room what he found out in that field. And my father saw the same material. He was like, no, this is definitely not. not what was in that picture there. So, it was real. I want to say something, too.

I think by participating, Denise, you really made our show something special. Thank you. And I think you really honored the legacy of your father and your grandfather, who I believe is an American hero for speaking up. So thank you. My partner in crime, you're so far away. Jennifer, when we first started this project and I knew I was going to be going out to investigate Rosso, I was like a kid in a candy show.

job, but you coming from a background of what you do, if you're willing to share with us, what was it like knowing that you were going to be investigating a UFO event? Oh, my. So for those of you who don't know, I am a military veteran and I am a licensed private investigator in the state of California. So things that border on the paranormal can be really looked down upon in our community. So I had to explain it to my colleagues in a way that focused on the conspiracy of it, because we knew that it was not as the government had portrayed.

And then after I had spoken to some of my colleagues and I have actually gone to a state conference this past month, people were very supportive. Because when you're dealing with a historical investigation, PIs, we don't make a living with historical investigations because who's going to pay the bills? So they were really excited that I got the chance to work in that realm because it's not something often that we have the opportunity to do.

Now, had you known anything about the Roswell UFO event specifically before you got involved? I had definitely read into it. Not nearly as much as when we started shooting the show and we did all the research that we did, but I had always known that there was something a little off about it because I think if you poll everybody in the room, does anyone here really think it was a weather balloon that crashed?

Right? But I feel like society nowadays, we... Maybe. See me after. We live in a society where it's Twitter-based, it's 160 characters. People just know what's put out there. So the government says it was a weather balloon, and 95% of people will say, weather balloon, I believe it. So I applaud that you guys are here and looking into this and saying, no, maybe it wasn't what was fed to us.

Right. And that's another really good point that I'd like to throw over to Alejandro is this idea that when this event happened in 47, the military themselves put out a headline saying that they had captured a flying disc. a day later, that headline was taken away, and it was nothing but a weather balloon. So our own military were the ones to first come forward and brag that we may be the first country to have recovered an alien spacecraft. Next day, that was completely a whole different story. So Alejandro, being like the preeminent researcher on this case and many others, what do you make of this, the military's involvement and the switch around within a day? I think there's a couple really important aspects to it.

And by the way, there's a lot of researchers who have done a lot more work on it, but thank you. There's a couple really important things that I think we have to keep in mind with it that people, I think, overlook. So, for instance, it was the military who put out that press release. It was Denise's grandfather who had gone and looked at that material, reported it back that this is not a weather balloon. This is something that we don't understand and we don't know what it is. the colonel on the base decided, wow, we really got something here. UFOs were in the news. So this press release said, you know, we might have caught one of these flying saucers.

We recovered a crash disc. The radio reports as well, you can hear these online. You hear we may have an answer to these. You have a flying saucer issue. I don't know why they talked like that back in the old days on the radio. But yeah, and so this was a thing. So they very boldly put out this press release that we captured a flying saucer. The next day, you know, your grandfather, Jesse Marcell, was flown to Fort Worth, Texas,

where he shows up and the general, he goes and sees, says, well, we're going to tell people it's this weather balloon, and he walks in a room and there's weather balloon pieces. And I was good friend with Denise's father, who was an absolute wonderful person, one of the most incredible people, kind and just a wonderful person. And the way he puts it is, you know, he was a patriot. They both were. They both served in the military. And his dad did not question it.

He said, yes, sir, that's what I'll do, if that's what I'm ordered to do. So that's what they did. End of story. And it wasn't until years later when St. And St. Friedman talked with her grandfather that the story really kind of became famous and got out there. But Colonel Blanchard, the guy who put out that person, press release, he didn't get in trouble or reprimanded. In fact, he went on to become a general, a brigadier general, I believe. So he raised through the ranks. He wasn't in trouble for saying,

what are you doing, telling people that we caught a flying saucer. No, it was more like, you know, he was doing his job. And you would think that if he told people, we caught a flying saucer when it was just a weather balloon, obviously they'd get in a lot of trouble and he'd probably be demoted. But that's not what happened. So, you know, there's a lot that support that there was something, to this and that those guys were not mistaking a weather balloon, that they really encountered something unusual. Denise, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. When your grandfather did what he was told to do, as any military person would do, I know this story must have been completely different at home.

So when this all happened, when he has shared things with you, how did that make you feel knowing that your grandfather believed that we were not alone and that there was possibly something from another planet that had crashed here? Yeah, you know, I had a very, I guess you could say, interesting childhood. My father, he was raised in Louisiana after they moved away from Roswell. And when he was in the Navy and when he got out of the Navy, we moved to Montana. And one of the main reasons we moved to Montana was so my dad. dad could build a huge telescope in a backyard because all he wanted to do was look up at the

stars to see if he could see anything out there. My grandfather in my, we didn't talk about it a lot because we were told, my grandfather was told he's never to talk about it again. And my father really, really kind of stuck to that as far as friend-wise. I've been finding out recently that my grandfather actually was talking about it a lot more than what I, I think even what my dad knew to some family relatives. And these family relatives are saying, no, your grandfather was actually very upset. He felt he had absolutely no recourse. And he felt he was kind of done wrong.

Even though he was a military man and he was doing his job, I think he expected, like, years later something like the truth would come out and, like, you know, let's not make him look like he was a bumbling fool, you know, saying, oh, you know, he couldn't tell what a weather balloon was, but that never happened. I think for me, though, it really opened my eyes up to, there's so many possibilities out there and so many, gosh, it could be so much life out there. And we just don't have, know that it's, I mean, we just don't, you know, it's amazing to me.

Absolutely. I mean, the first book I ever read about UFOs was Crash at Corona by Stan Friedman. And I was just getting into this thing And the fact that I was now seeing UFOs may be visiting our planet, but they're also crashing on our planet. That was enough for me to be like, there's something to this all.

And Jennifer, I know when we first started, we had just met each other. It was very, you know, brief introductions. Let's go, let's go investigate. And I knew a lot of sort of the things we would be covering. I had heard rumors that there were possible material. out in the desert and everything. So I'd like to know from you,

what about this investigation into Roswell really stuck out to you in terms of evidence? Well, it was funny. When you called me and you asked me if I wanted to work on this with you, once we started researching and digging in, I was really appalled at how sloppy the cover-up was. So if you're going to cover something up,

do a good job. Just do a good job. If you look at even the pieces of the weather balloon that were found, those were shiny, straight out of a package. It hadn't been sitting out. There was no mud. There was no dirt.

I mean, this is a dusty place that it was sitting. And it was just kind of insulting that they said, well, this is what we found, and you guys just have to accept that. Because there were so many things that it was like, guys, really, this is the best that you can do? And then I think when the Air Force released the report saying it was Project Mogul, it was this big long report, that was kind of a lot to do about nothing. It was this huge report to kind of get people to shut up because how many people are actually going to read the report? Not many. I mean, this thing was, what did they say? 994 pages long, I think.

Exactly. So nobody's going to read anything that's, you know, over 50 pages. Exactly. So I think that's what struck me about it. And then kind of just how it went away. It went away and the government said, okay, if you think that it's aliens, I guess people are going to think it's aliens. we'll just let you think it's aliens. And I think that's just kind of a lazy way of allowing it to go to the side.

It's just by making everybody think, oh, we're crazy because we think it could be aliens. Now, I'm not saying that that's exactly what happened. I don't know if that was extraterrestrial in nature, but it's undeniable that a cover-up did occur. Okay. Now, for anyone who's seen the special, we did go to the crash site, and there's been a lot of speculation and rumors about where this actual crash site is in Roswell. Everyone claims to have been there. We got out there and there's this like placard in the ground that says this is where something crashed in 1947.

And a lot of people go there and they're like, cool, this is where it happened. That's awesome. We found out with Frank Kimbler, a geologist that we had worked with, that, no, the actual crash site was something like 50 miles away, I believe. and that astounded me. I never knew exactly where this thing had happened. Of course, Roswell is like that case that we all hope we can someday investigate. And the fact that we got to go out there and the way that this geologist found the crash site itself was astounding to me. Would you mind maybe giving us a little bit about how Frank was able to do this?

He succeeded where so many have failed. So Frank is a teacher at the New Mexico Military Institute, and he's a geology. by trade. So he was able to look at the maps and determine where it was using topography. So he had several maps and he took him a long time. He basically laid the maps over different areas and eventually

he found one that was a perfect fit. So there's no way that you can fake the topography and say here we're going to build a mountain and here we're going to build a valley and here we're going to build a hill. So the way that he found it, I was really impressed and to me when we started talking about that, that gave him a level of

credibility in my mind because he had done so much research and had ascertained exactly where the location was. Right. And then the next step from there, after finding this location, was he would go out there for weeks and weeks on end with his son, God bless his son, for doing this with him, out to the crash site with metal detectors, trying to look for anything they could find. And we were all out there. Gary, you were out there too. Within 100 miles of where this crash site is, there's nothing, absolutely nothing. No life. no, there would be no reason for anyone to be out there. So I know Jennifer and I were like, oh, we're going to go out there.

They're just going to be like trash left over. Some kids are probably partying. Not a single thing. But this was where Frank was able to find a ton of metal buried beneath the ground. So that was a whole other aspect of this thing that I wasn't expecting going into it. I don't know about you. But what did you think about the whole meta material thing? Well, just to be clear, when they said that they found the location,

At first, I was like, sure, you found the location. Everybody says they found the location. I mean, in my line of work, I'm very skeptical. So once Frank had convinced me that that actually was the location, and we went out there, I said, for sure, there's going to be something that we can tell that people have been here. There were not animals. There was not trash.

There was not a string on the ground. And in the military, we do a thing called a Fod walkdown. So we look for foreign objects that could get stuck in an aircraft and potentially blow the engine. So I basically looked at the ground and I walked, turned around, looked at the ground and walked, and I did this for about a half an hour. There was nothing out there. There were barely any insects out there, which I thought was very weird. So I think that I think the fact that Frank was able to find metal out there, it was very odd to me.

And not only did he find the metal, but he also found buttons from a military uniform that date back to that time. Yeah, we weren't able to get that on camera, but we did find out later on. He did find, he found military buttons out there. They were dated and they were back in the 40s. So why was that out there? We sort of thought, probably if these military people were out there, they were sweeping the area. Hands and feet down there trying to find every little bit of whatever this thing was

that impacted on the ground and dragged for miles after that. So imagining that cleanup, it's unfathomable that they would actually find every single piece. Oh, absolutely. And I've done cleanups when we're looking for something, not when a UFO crashes. I've never done that. But we've done cleanup and you put everything that you find in a particular bag, and they bag and tag everything. So is it possible you can find every little piece? No, that's generally not possible.

So I'm not surprised that he was able to find something, but I'm also surprised, given how barren it was that he was able to. Gotcha. You know, it's not a very scientific, you know, observation. but I was there in a place just seemed eerie, like spooky and weird. I mean, didn't you guys feel that? I don't. Oh, yeah. For me, it was like Disneyland.

Like, I got to step foot on the actual crash site. So for me, I was like all excited and euphoric. And yeah, I know for you, though, Gary, you did share that with me. It was eerie. There was a ominous feel to it, this history behind it. And I love that the way you pointed out that even the marker for the crash site is part of the cover-up. It's not the right place, which is kind of. interesting. Right. Now, Denise, I know

a lot of people are probably wondering this, myself included, and I think I asked you this one point. I don't know if it made it on camera or not. There's been so much speculation that when your grandfather brought these materials home to show your father and his wife, that he said this was from an alien spaceship. And a lot of people have heard that maybe he held on to a little. something. Is this something you could clarify for us? You know, as far as I know, he never kept anything.

But what's really interesting, though, is in that Roswell, that 994-page report, there is a lady, I think her name was Mary Cavett. She was married to Sheridan Cabot, who was the person that went out with my grandfather to the field. And she did reference that he, they saw a piece of it afterwards at their house, which, you know, I found kind of shocking. But the one thing that made it like, well, you know, this kind of sounds in a way real, because she called my father little Jesse. Nobody, unless you know the family really well, would know to call him little Jesse. So it was like he was out there at the same time. My dad said that as far as he knew nothing was ever kept either. Okay. But you know what I was going to say about that the out there in that field?

Wasn't the Bureau of Land Management trying to get those pieces back from Frank? Yes. So during the process of our filming, I'd say a couple weeks before, during and after, we had worked with Frank, and the Bureau of Land Management had found out that he was going to be doing this. And they contacted him and brought him in for a special meeting to discuss what he had and what they found out there. Now they own the land. So that's really interesting. My question is why. My question is why, if it's a soda can, like people have said it is, why are they trying to get it back? That doesn't make any sense. Unless it's something that they don't want revealed to the public, why would you waste government resources and time to contact some quack, which is what they're alluding to, to get pieces of metal back? It doesn't make any sense. They were moderating his Facebook page, too, because I got caught up in that.

I did too. Yep. Yep. We both saw through a Freedom of Information Act request that we were being monitored on Facebook, conversing with Frank Kimber, the man who found these materials, they had screenshots of our conversations with him, and these were released. Well, what's interesting, too, is the kind of loophole that Frank used was that you can take the material off of the Bureau, off the land. However, unless it is culturally or historically significant. So if that material is found to be something mysterious, then that may classify it as such, and then the Bureau of Land Management would,

be able to compensate skate that material. So we'll see what happens. This is all, you know, unfolding and will for years. Absolutely. See what happens. That's kind of what I wanted to get to. Now, Jennifer, when we were out there, we spoke to a lot of locals and whatnot about bodies. This is a very contentious part of the Roswell mystery.

So we heard some pretty interesting stories off the record while we were out there. But we also heard some really intriguing things from the, the, the, the, family who headed the Roswell Daily Record, the people who broke the Roswell story. Right. And we heard some interesting stuff about that. Do you want to elaborate, sort of wrap up our Roswell part here with that? You know, we heard a lot of things when we were there speaking to the locals. One of the things that stuck out to me, of course, is, you know, they ordered four child-sized caskets.

So if there are no bodies, do you need caskets? And if they're crash test dummies, which we've disproven that theory, because those were made. made after the fact after Roswell happened. Who puts crushed his dummies in a casket? Have you ever heard of such a thing? So we talked to several people and a few things that didn't make it into the show. I had talked to someone who was at the New Mexico Military Institute. He's a retired colonel and he had said that there was a woman who, her husband was a veterinarian.

And he was called in to vivisect some beings that were found. And he went into the room and he immediately freaked out. and started screaming and was shaking and was uncontrollable. They removed him, and he did not touch any of the bodies. And later, he had some visitors at his house saying, if this were to ever happen, if you were to ever be contacted about this, none of this happened. Everybody will think you're crazy, you'll be run out of town.

And his wife told my acquaintance this decades after, after her husband was dead. and it was never spoken of again. So again, if it was a weather balloon, there's no bodies. If there were no bodies, there's no need for caskets. It's very simple. It is. And the important thing to also keep in mind is,

we're not the investigators who are out there saying, Roswell was definitely aliens. That's not what we were about. We wanted to seek the truth. We wanted to go where the facts led us. And in terms of the research Alejandro brought to us about Project Mogul, after we had spoken to him, I did some digging, and I found out that the person who wrote the manual for Project Mogul

was really pissed off that the U.S. Air Force was using his project as a scapegoat for some UFO event. So before he died, he did make the statement that Project Mogul was not what happened at Roswell, and that is the last answer we've been given by the government. So I guess the mystery remains. Well, I think you said it so perfectly at the end of our show that there's definitely a cover up here, but we don't quite know what they're covering up. And then the other thing that I loved is when you said it's really raised more questions and answers after we did the sex. Unfortunately, it did. And we went in thinking, we'll be able to figure out what happened.

But there was just so many things that came up during the course of the investigation. And if, you know, when you're doing an investigation, you can't just decide where you want to go and follow that path. You can't do that. That's piss poor investigation, to put it lightly. You have to look at everything. And so when we were investigating this, there were things that took us off this way and this way and this way. And things that we didn't even think would happen ended up happening. And we really had enough for three shows.

But we had, you know, you only have 40-something minutes to have a show. There was so much that we uncovered that ended up not in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And since we're wrapping up Roswell, I'll add one thing that I think is really interesting. I've been pretty skeptical. You never know, like these guys looked into it, not assuming that this is aliens. But we've heard a lot, and it's been part of this event, you know, unidentified, this Pentagon program that we now know exists.

Well, many of us have interviewed people involved with this program, and a couple of the people, including one of the contractors, Dr. Eric Davis, a physicist, and Lou Elizondo, the guy who ran the Pentagon program, They have both said that they have heard there really are crash retrieval programs inside the government. They haven't been able to get access to these programs. They're just rumors, but they're looking for those answers. I asked Lou, well, you say that. Can you prove it? Or I said, I'm assuming you can't prove that. And he said, no, I'm not saying that at all.

So it seems like if pressed, he believes he could prove there actually are programs like that. It's pretty telling that the head of a secret Pentagon program would say that. That's really interesting. Well, Jennifer, I know we're definitely just scratching the surface of Roswell. So many have tried to crack this case, and we're doing our own thing, and we're going to keep going where the facts lead us. So I'm looking forward to keep doing that with you, getting out there back to Roswell. If we meet our untimely demise? Yeah, yeah.

Riot. I saw some meaning for us. All right. So switching gears a little. Guys, when this one hour of Roswell Mysteries Decoded special aired on the CW, it far exceeded expectations of a lot of people. And the CW came to Gary and said, let's keep doing this. And from Roswell Mysteries Decoded spawned Mysteries Decoded, a series that you're going to see premiere on August 13th on the CW. So I want to sort of get an idea of where we're heading next.

We've done Roswell, UFOs. but I know Jennifer has such a vast experience in investigation that it's not just UFOs that you guys want to cover with this. So as the executive producer and the lead host of Mysteries Decoded, what should we look forward to with this upcoming series? What are we going to be investigating? I want to throw us to the man. Nope, you got it, Kerry. All right.

He's the boss. First of all, we're so excited to have this opportunity, and I can't thank the network enough. Thank you, Kyle, for this chance. They've really given us carte blanche to look at stories that we find really fascinating and interesting and to really delve into them. And what we wanted to do from the very beginning is to see if we could find the truth and tell a great story. And in a lot of ways, I would have to say Alejandro, I've been inspired by you in open minds.

And I think they are the preeminent source right now for any information about UFOs. And what I like about them is that everything isn't a UFO. It's like we're going to look at it, we're going to investigate it, and maybe 90% of the time we even come up with an explanation. But then there's that five or ten like, we don't know what this is, we need to take a closer look at it. So when we decided to do the series, we want to use that same technique. We're going to look at everything and see where the facts lead us.

We don't come to any conclusions before we begin the shows. We don't tell anyone what to say. not that Jennifer would listen, but we go and we look for the facts and the truth and wherever it takes us, that's where we go. One thing that was difficult for me when I first signed on was, you know, some of the topics are a little more paranormal than I'm used to. And I am a skeptic. I work in investigation. I don't deal with ghosts and paranormal things. So that was really important to me. And I explained to Gary that I'm not going to go into something necessarily believing. it. I need to be the skeptic and I need to really look at the science behind things and the proof behind things. And I have to admit, there's been a few episodes where things have happened

and I cannot explain why or how. And of course you're going to have people watching a show and they're going to say, this is fake, that's fake. No, there's been some things that have happened that I called my husband that night and said, this is what happened and I don't know how to explain it. I have no idea and months have passed and I still have no idea. Interesting. I know I was going to add to that in terms of Morning Star Productions who produce the show and the CW. It's extremely rare for both a network and a production company to give such control to the investigators. I've been a part of other projects where they're telling you what to say verbatim.

They have a narrative that they want. for their show and you got to do that or they will edit you to make it seem that way. That was not the experience with this project from the very start. And we both went into that asking for that. Like let us do what we do best and that's to investigate. And that's what I really enjoyed about Roswell Mysteries Decoded is you let us do what we wanted to do. There was never an agenda. It was let's just go do this. So in terms of Mysteries Decoded, you mentioned there were some pretty paradigm shifting moments for you that really made you think. So I know Jennifer and I went out to investigate Area 51, which again, Roswell and Area 51, like no UFO investigator gets that opportunity.

So I'm extremely thankful for that. We'll get to Area 51, but what else are you going to be covering? And maybe what is one or two of those pivotal moments where you were like, there is something to this and the world is not what I expected? Well, I'm not going to give away plot points, of course. but two episodes stick out to me. One was an episode we've shot about Lizzie Borden. Did Lizzie Borden, in fact, murder her parents, or was it someone else? There were things that happened during that episode that can't explain. When you guys see it, you'll understand why.

And then when we were looking at the Bermuda Triangle, I went into it thinking, it's a clever manipulation of statistics, the number of ships, and planes that have disappeared there. But the more that we looked into it and the science behind it, it really blew me away. We talked to physicists. I mean, anybody who deals with naval ships, aircraft, we talked to pilots.

I really wanted the science behind it. And it was just incredible, some of the people that we talked to in the knowledge base and how deep we were able to dive. Yeah. One of my favorite moments is when we were doing the Lizzie Borden story, her home where her parents were killed is now a bed and breakfast

wonderful place to stay and they made me stay overnight at that bed and breakfast she slept in Lizzie's bed which I would have never gone near so oh my god thank you why I told her

people would be disappointed if she didn't spend the night in the place but then I went to the motel down the street nice it sounds about right Yeah, yeah. But, you know, one of the things that you say, I really take it as a great compliment that, you know, you said, we didn't tell you what to say. We didn't come up with a theory or a thesis to prove in any of these shows.

We went into them thinking, let's look for the facts, let's tell a great story, and see where this leads us. That's the way to do it. And should we talk about some of the shows we have coming up? I love to. I mean, we have, one of the ones I was really excited to learn about was the Montauk Project. Now, Jennifer, for some who may not know, you have not just a connection to investigating Montauk, but you were part of something pretty, pretty prominent in pop culture today that was directly inspired by this case you covered. Yes.

So could you tell us what your connection to that is? Sure. So I've been working in television and film since I left the military, and I have, I'm an actor by trade. So I have, you know, several roles that coincide with, ironically, some of the episodes. as we've been doing, but I play Max's mom on Stranger Things. And so when I was in Montauk, which is great because if they have a show, they can hire a private investigator who understands television. That's always, you know, great. But most of my living is, as a private investigator, I can help people, and that's really what drives me is helping people get closure to the things

that they so desperately need closure for. But it was strange. When we were in Montauk, the whole Stranger Things series, who watches Stranger Things? Okay, so you You guys know. Yeah, it's a great show, and it's inspired by what happened at Montauk. So it was so odd being in Montauk and investigating this and seeing my two worlds kind of come together. Montauk was interesting because you have people who say, I believe in the Montauk project. It's like, well, what does that mean? There's so many things that go under the Montauk project.

So the more that we looked into it, there's certainly things that I believe have merit. And then there's some things that are just kind of thrown in there for conspiracy theorists. but that was one of the episodes that I replay in my mind over and over the things that we experience there because it is, if you've never been to Montauk, New York, I would say just go, just for the experience. It's super creepy. Yeah. Yeah. Another one that I was excited to hear about is Mothman for any John Keel fans out there.

We know Mothman pretty well. So tell us a little about that. Did you know anything about the lore behind you? this beforehand? You know, I had only known about Mothman because the man who directed it directed my son in a commercial. So that was my only connection

to it. I wasn't very well versed in it. And Mothman was very interesting. One, because of the geography and the culture of West Virginia, Ohio. When we went there, I'm sure most of you guys live in California, if you're filming anywhere, people say, where's your permit,

sir? People don't want you filming. People find it to be a pain in the butt. In West Virginia, everybody was so welcoming and they were so open. And it was interesting talking to everyday people and seeing this belief permeate the culture. It really permeates the culture. And you have people from the very old to the very young residents of this entire area who either know someone who had an experience or had an experience themselves. So that really blew me away. I never thought we would go into this area and talk to so many people with a direct connection. Yeah, I think you don't realize the impact these events have, not just on the

individuals experiencing it, but the community that grew up around this. It's the same with Roswell. I mean, when you go there, Denise, you know, it's a very small town. Like, no offense to Roswell, I love it, but there's not much going on other than this event and the military base is there. So you don't really realize what kind of a cultural impact these things actually have. Mothman, the Flatwoods Monster, things like that. this, they permeate and they become bigger and they become bigger than sometimes the incident that actually occurred. And I think it's important to remember that most of the Mothman Law centers around the

collapse of the Silver Bridge and you look at how many people, I mean, imagine, I stood at that spot, imagine you're in your car on a bridge and it starts to collapse, the fear, the terror. And so many people died in that. And people we talked to said, my grandfather died. my cousin died. And this is very much a town that, yes, it does profit from Mothman lore. I mean, let's address the elephant in the room. Of course it does. It's a very small town. But at the same time, this stemmed from a tragedy. And when we were there, it was just so sad when we talked to people and they would explain that, yes, this person died, that person died. This person was maimed horribly.

This person had such bad post-traumatic stress that they couldn't hold a job. They became homeless. It really made it real. So regardless of whether or not Mothman exists in any form, this bridge collapse and the appearance of Mothman that people believe they saw has impacted the community. Yeah. Yeah, it's, again, we're also really thrilled that we got one of the last living survivors who saw Mothman in the show. Okay. Yeah, so we're very excited. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. She saw it and she even describes it to our artist. who is going to depict what she saw. Nice.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. Cool. I know we're going to do a little Q&A here, but I do want to wrap up Mysteries Decoded talking about our other investigation that we went on, and that was Area 51. Now, the government recently, within the past decade or so, finally acknowledged that this thing existed,

even though we all knew it for so long. But, Jennifer, what did you think about Area 51? Ryan and I were in the car. I don't know if this will make the show, but we were in the car saying, we're rolling down the windows, if the government has any software to read our lips, we will not breach the barrier. We are here just to see.

We will not tell your secrets. We were just so scared that something was going to happen because a few months ago somebody had been shot. Now he crossed the barrier and he had a cylindrical object in his hand, not too smart. And he was shot. So we were very, very careful, how far we went to the gate. and we were very cognizant that there are cameras everywhere.

Oh, yeah. And I mean, again, we had some weird stuff happen when we were in the car heading to the base. I'm not going to give that away. But there was absolutely no doubt in my mind. We were being surveilled within 10 miles of the gate. It's definitive proof, in my opinion, what happened there. So, yeah, we sort of tie in Area 51 to a lot of what's going on today, this modern Navy story that is broken.

with all these pilots coming forward, the A-Tip Secret Pentagon UFO program. And we talked a lot about Bob Lazar, the person who sort of put Area 51 on the map, along with George Knapp, the investigative journalist who broke Area 51 to begin with. And we found some really interesting similarities between what Bob Lazard had to say in terms of the technology this man supposedly worked on when he was employed at Area 51, and this gimbal video, if any of you have seen this video, of this cylindrical craft that seemed to rotate in midair and shoot off, it was strikingly similar to this testimony back in the 80s by Bob Lazar.

So Alejandro, I know you've looked a lot into this too, sort of wrapping up Area 51 for us. What do you make of all this, man? What's going on today? Are we living in a new era of UFO disclosure? and how does that match what we were told 30-something years ago by Bob Lazar? Yeah, I think that Bob Lazar's story is really hard to verify. I mean, it's one person with anecdotal information.

I think that a lot of the lead investigators question is educational background. It's impossible to verify that. And so there are a lot of questions there. But what's really interesting, you know, talking about what's going on today with Area 51, is that two of the members of the Two the Stars team that Tongued along, the Rock Stars, started that Louise Elizondo, the guy who ran the Pentagon program, this team is made up of two people who have worked at Area 51 and been there quite often. One of them used to be the Assistant Defense Secretary of Intelligence, Chris Mellon. The other one is a former, you know, executive with Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. And Lockheed Martin Skunk Works is the organization that was tasked with finding the location for Area 51 and building Area 51 for the CIA.

And now this guy, you know, is one of the guys at Area 51 is working with Tom's Long and these others. So they're the guys who would know if anything's there. They've spent a lot of time. But one of the things that I found really interesting about Area 51 is that, you know, it is a real base. You know, Lockheed, CIA have all been involved. But as uphologists, you know, and we luckily lately have been finding this, we get vindicated. And there were a lot of people, once the news hit that the CIA admitted Area 51 existed, you know, we got these phone calls. Hey, Area 51 is real.

No kidding. We've been telling you that for years. So it was shocking to me. Some people speculate that they attach this idea of UFOs and aliens with Area 51 to keep people from realizing what goes on. there. And if that is the case, it was very effective because just because of that relationship, people did not believe it even existed. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to sort of wrap up what is going to be investigated on Mysteries Decoded. But we did want to leave a little time if anyone had any questions about, you know, the process of our investigation, what we uncovered,

stuff like that. Yeah, please, I think there's a mic on either end here. If you could go up there. We've got about 15 minutes, so if you could just make the questions a little short and concise, we would really appreciate it. I don't think they do have mics, actually. Oh, there's nice. Yeah. There you go. Hello. So, came in a little late, so maybe you already covered this, but I had a question about the analysis of the metal from Roswell, or allegedly from Roswell from the crash.

Did you put it under isotope analysis, isotope ratios? Yes, we did. And to be honest, we tested about five pieces of metal. It was inconclusive, but we have more pieces we're hoping to test in the future. Although, if I could, this is one of the stories. Luckily, we got to break as early on, the hard part is there's several small little pieces and they're very tiny. And he can't save for certain, you know, every piece is something anomalous. And we have to look at several different pieces, which is difficult. Now, one of the early analysis he got on the isotopes, because that's very important. Essentially, you can look at the isotopes and determine if something was created here on the planet, essentially. And he did get from one lab a very strange result that said, essentially, that it wasn't made on the planet. It was within what's called an error range. And he got a hold of them and said, you know, it looks like in the error range. So do you think you made a mistake? And they said, we do not make mistakes like that. It is way off on the out there. The lab itself was doubtful that that was a mistake. Now, that experiment has not been able to be repeated.

You know, they attempted to, and unfortunately they didn't get the same results. But, you know, one thing that Frank likes to make a point of is in the analysis done in the show, those who are metallurgists, and they were not able to determine that the metal was something anomalous, but they did receive, you know, some chemicals that were part of the analysis that weren't. able to be investigated. So there's still some possibility that something mysterious could be found. Right. Yeah. It's still

open. There's still so many tests that we could do. Again, this was just a metal test. And honestly, I hope that Frank holds on to at least a few of the pieces, because who knows where technology will be in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. Yes. And Frank's well aware that with a lot of these pieces,

they unfortunately have to be destroyed in order to be tested. So Frank is a very careful, responsible scientist. He's got pieces of this stuff locked away that nobody knows about, which is very smart, in my opinion. And he's still looking for more. He's still looking at it. He's still out there all the time.

Yeah, I participated. This was weird, too, if you don't mind me sharing this story where we got a hold of this very prominent USGS scientist who wanted to get involved and help him do research. We got that material sent to a lab that was very prestigious, a university. and I can't give the details, but it broke down because when that university opened up the box, the materials were gone. And I told Frank, do not mail those. You have to go hand-deliver them.

And they talked them into, you know, the logistics just wasn't going to work for him to hand-deliver them. But, of course, when that lab got this material open the box, they thought, oh, Frank's a jokester. This is all, we shouldn't have done this goofy UFO thing in the beginning. he was upset because he thought they stole the material or lost it. But it was still a mystery. We never found out where that material went. Yeah, and I think Frank learned from that. So he handed them to me, and I handed them to the metallurgis

to make sure nothing like that happened again. Yes. Thank you for your question. Thank you. Yeah, let's go right here, if we could. Questions for Jennifer. When you went spent the night at Lizzie Borden's house, did you, I've been there.

and everything. I was offered to spend the night also, but I declined. Smart. Very smart. Did you make it to Maplecroft? We did. We did. So Maplecroft, for those of you who aren't aware, that is the house that Lizzie, after her parents were murdered, she wanted to go by Lisbeth. So it was the house that Elizabeth Borden bought with her inheritance. Exactly.

And it's a large estate, and it's in a very ritzie part of town. And it's not open to the public, but we were actually able to go there. and it's quite lovely. Yeah, I was there in Fall River, and we not only took the tour of her house, we went to Maple Crop, and then we went to her grave site. We did too, yes.

I got a picture of me standing over her grave site with an axe. Oh, my God. I'll show it to you if you're willing to want to see it. Yes, please show me later. That is a morbid sense of humor, sir. Let's go over, anyone over here? Hi, how are you doing? Thank you guys for doing what you're doing.

My question, there is a photo out there of a high-ranking military official, perhaps it's a general. He's kneeling down next to this balloon, supposed balloon, and he's holding the little matter. And what I understand, someone tried to zoom in on this and decipher what it is. One, do you know about it? And two, can you share any contents that you might have found? Jennifer, that's all you. Yes. So that's General Ramey.

And what he's holding is referred to as the Ramey memo. And we knew that it had been deciphered by other sources. We did not want to have that color our perception of it. So we went in and we had a forensic photo analyst who used to work for the FBI. He blew it up and we went through line by line. My issue with the Ramey memo is if this was in fact a weather balloon, why do you need a memo? Why do you need a general there? why do you need a photo session?

There's a lot of things about that memo that just don't make sense. Now, it has not been definitively translated word for word, or deciphered, I'll say, not translated, but deciphered word for word. But there's enough on there that it's clear there's something else going on. Yeah, and I have to add to Denise's grandfather, he was brought in, taken out of the room, brought back in, and they laid the weather balloon out, and you said. Hey, it's Call and Chip from the fellas podcast and we are

currently working with Audible. Mate, I'm in some serious need of spicing up those everyday tasks badly. Ah, so easy, man. There's so much more to imagine when you listen and Audible is your fix. Audible? What's the deal? Audio books, podcasts, aboriginals, you name

it. All in one app. You can turn those mundane moments into an adventure. I'm literally in Lord of the Rings right now. You know what? When you're listening, it's so much easier to imagine your right There. You've convinced me. I'm getting involved. I'll see you in middle air, fella. Listen on Audible now. Subscription required. See, audible.com. UK for terms. what the hell is this he said that's what you saw out there

no it isn't and he said yes it is that's exactly what I heard he was briefed on what it really was still had the letter in his hand and then they laid out the balloon and did the photo op yep that's what we did

you should watch the show you can see it still on CWC'd and you'll see the whole section I think you'll enjoy it yeah there is another gentleman in one of those photos to Colonel Du Bois who was General Ramey's right hand man and he has come out

to some of the Roswell researchers and said it was a cover-up. It was not a weather balloon. I was aware that what we took pictures of, what are in those photos was not what was found in the desert. He says I don't know what was found, but it wasn't what was in Ramey's office during those pictures. Yeah. Gary brings up

a good point. If you do want to watch the special, it's available for free to stream on the CWC.com whenever you'd like. Please check it out. There's so much more we didn't talk about that was in that. But I think we have time maybe for one or two more questions.

So if we don't get to you guys, I do apologize. We'll be available after if you want to ask us some more questions. But yes, sir. Yes, I do. My name is Ralph. I'm from the Atlantic City, New Jersey area. And I'd like to thank all of you for enlightening us on all these subjects. But my question is, do any of your episodes feature any information on the Kexburg, Pennsylvania, UFO incident?

The Bell and all other stuff and not be ties to it and everything else? It's so funny that you bring that up. We don't specifically talk about Kexberg. Ryan and I are actually acquaintances with a filmmaker who's making a movie about Kexburgh right now. And surprisingly, he had asked me to be in the film, and I said, this is getting too weird. Too many of my roles are crossing over into investigation.

So he's actually doing a film that's called Kexberg, but it's not in any of our... We're aware of it. We've looked into it, but it's not in any of our episodes. But if we get picked up for season two, that's definitely something I would love to look at. Thank you. That's a dream come true.

for the dream pocket list number three Yeah Yes sir Yeah with the Roswell crash I know you mentioned that There was four You needed four caskets But is there any evidence or proof that any

of the greys or alien bodies Were still alive So the one So the colonel The retired colonel that I talked to Whose source Was the wife of the veterinarian She said that when her husband

saw them that one of them was still alive which is why I said that he wanted it vivisected. After that, because he ran out, that's all that I've been able to tell and that's a very, very credible source. He's a retired colonel now

and that woman is long since deceased. I haven't seen the show yet. Is that part in the show that... No, because... No, so what happened with that was I was working as an advisor for another show,

show when I ran into him and he said, how have you been? And I said, you know, I just shot this Roswell show and he said you should have talked to me because I went to New Mexico Military Institute and that's when he told me and he gave me the woman's name and I've looked up the woman. Her husband did in fact have a veterinary practice in

Roswell at that time. So it is a legitimate source but unfortunately they've both since passed on. And I also heard that, I don't know if this is true or not that the U.S. government is also working with the aliens actually at area 51.

Like a lot, is any of that true? I mean, I've heard stories through the years, but I don't know if it's fantasy or actually any base in any kind of reality. Right, right. I mean, there have been so many claims that there's these alien human hybridization programs going on, that the military is working in cahoots with the aliens. I'm a huge fan of the X-Files. It's probably my favorite show of all time.

But it's science fiction. I'm not saying, I'm not discounting any of the claims that that, that is happening. But to my knowledge, to the many military officials I've spoken with and governmental bodies, retired people I've spoken with, I haven't come across any evidence myself that that is happening. There's definitely some exotic stuff happening at Area 51, not a doubt in my mind. In terms of aliens working with humans, I think that's a whole other show. And I think, well, other show. Ryan, you know, Ryan's an expert in this field. I have the advantage of being a veteran and talking to other veterans, and people are more likely to open up to me as a fellow veteran if they're

speaking off the record. I have spoken to many veterans, naval aviators, pilots from all branches. I've spoken to people who were a part of the incident on the USS Nimitz in 2004. And they tell me things off the record that I cannot go into, but I will say definitively nobody, none of my sources has ever said to me, yes, there are humans and aliens working in tandem at Area 51. That's never come up. And I've heard some pretty outlandish things. That has never once come across my radar. Thank you. You guys, I do apologize. We did run out of time here. We're going to be available after if you want to ask us our questions. I know. I wish we could go a little longer. Want to do one more? One more.

Oncore. Gary Zabon. We're at a rock concert. Okay. One more. Yes, sir. And thank you for that one more, Gary. I'm going to direct this to you. Gary's your best friend. Who knew? My name is Mick Flair, and ever since 1980, I've been interested in following the Billy Meyer story from Zurich, Switzerland. You did such a wonderful job, all of you, on Roswell, that I think this is a mystery that needs to be decoded by you.

Thank you so much. We'll learn more. Thank you so much for that. I want to thank all of our panelists. I want to thank all of you guys for coming. please check out, Mysteries Decoded, August 13th, that premieres on the CW, and I know it's only just beginning. So, guys, thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. This is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network. To learn more, visit Entertainment One Podcast.com. Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague, our host of Summer in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your somewhere in the sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can

join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies HQ and help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support and keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Brian's bread. All right. It looks like we are live. Welcome everyone to another episode. of Somewhere in the Skies Live. I am your host, Ryan Sprague, and today we're going to be talking about something that probably a lot of you are familiar with, but if you're not, we will try to catch you up to speed. It is the 25th anniversary of the alien autopsy film, and I've got a funny story about my first time seeing it. I know my guest will today, so without further ado,

I'm going to bring him in. You know him best from Rogue Planet and the Unknown podcast, my buddy, my colleague, Jason McClellan. How you doing, man? Hey, I'm wonderful. Ryan, how are you? I'm good, man. I'm good. I reached out to you, what was it yesterday?

About doing this? Yesterday, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's just like me, right, to give you so much time to prepare. Yeah. That's how it goes. That's how it goes. I know.

Well, I guess, man, we roll with it. We do, we do. And we make it work. Speaking of making it work, for those of you watching on Facebook, I literally just push send on. this. Let's see if it goes, yes, if you're on Facebook and you want your comments to be seen today, click that link that I just put on the Facebook feed, and it gives us access to your comments. So we can put it right up on the screen here. If you're watching on YouTube, you know it's right

there on the right hand side. Put your comments there. Hopefully we'll see them. I see them pouring in already. So this is going to be fun. But before we talk about the main part of this, Jason, the alien autopsy, I got to talk to you about your later. episode of the unknown podcast. I listened to it last night. And look, it's something that a lot of us don't think about and was a huge hypothetical some 20, 30 years ago, but it's becoming a reality. So I want to get it from you. You wrote a huge expose or article on this for Open Minds magazine in the past, but it's space law. So tell us a little about this most recent episode. Yeah. So space law is something that's fascinated me for a long time because I'm a space geek. And, you know, space is really the

wild west. And you think about all of these, you know, private companies in this modern space race we're in where private companies want to go into space and set up bases and mine asteroids and the moon and other celestial bodies for resources. And, you know, really, we know on Earth there's all sorts of regulations regarding business activities. So talk about going, into space, who owns space, who owns the moon, who owns asteroids. So these are all fun questions and existing space law, the way it exists right now, you know, it was formulated back in the 60s, back during the original space race. And back then, space was, you know, it was thought of as this science fiction type thing. Like, yeah, we were going into space, but a lot of the things being

contemplated were thought of as these far-off things that were never going to happen or we're going to happen far in the future, so we don't need to worry about them now. So, you know, there's a lot of ambiguities when it comes to space law, to laws in space. And we're also dealing with a lot of different countries, right? I mean, we have enough issues getting people here on Earth to follow, you know, shared laws. And when it comes to space, how do we get all countries on board to follow the same laws when it comes to space? And that's proving to be a problem, right? Because now we do have companies like getting really close.

to mining asteroids for resources. And the current space law, all space law, is primarily based off the Outer Space Treaty, which was created in 67. And, you know, not every country signed onto this treaty. Not every country adheres to this treaty. And in recent years, other countries and United States, notably, has basically said, you know what?

we see your treaty. That's all fine and good. But we're entitled Americans and we don't recognize your treaty. Like you have fun with that. We're going to go do our own thing. We don't recognize that space is for the greater good for, you know, viewed as an international commons. We're Americans. So we have the right to take our own resources from space. So that's causing some problems. And there's been a recent It's a reason outcry asking the UN to step in, basically, and take the lead on trying to establish some form of uniform international regulations that everybody can agree to and abide by. It's tough. Space is the Wild West.

And again, I mean, even with the laws, who's going to enforce them, right? I mean, unless you want to believe that there is a secret military in space right now and they have the ability to, like, zoom and shoot people for doing that. things. They're not really going to be able to be space police and go and enforce laws in space. I mean, people are going to do what they're going to do. It's a crazy wild time right now. People are kind of making things up as they go. Right. And I think that's the big part of it is every country has their own agendas and motives when it comes to trying to draft these laws. And, you know, like you mentioned in the episode, a lot of countries have never been to space.

They don't have space programs. Yet, what I think is interesting, is they do get a say in this. Apparently, you know, when it comes to the UN's involvement, it's good to see the UN doing something. That's the idea. That's the idea behind this latest push to give non-space-faring countries a voice when it comes to establishing these policies that really affect everybody. And going back to the Outer Space Treaty from 1967, that specifically states that, you know, space and activities in space are, for the benefit of all humanity. And that's always been the contention here

with companies that want to go and make money in space. They want to mine asteroids for resources. They want to mine the moon. How does it benefit all of humanity if a private company is profiting, you know, making money? How is that benefiting all of humanity? Some have made some interesting

and creative arguments. But yeah, it's interesting. Business people are good at making creative arguments. Oh, yeah. Well, that's part of business. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It shows good business. The other kind of, there's two other things I found really interesting in both the article you wrote and this episode of Unknown.

One was this idea of property versus, you know, actually the celestial body, let's say. Like, let's say you go to the moon. You know, can you lay stake on the moon as property? So this law was pretty interesting. Would you kind of maybe mind kind of running us through this whole thing, the moon treaty? I'm with you, man. Well, there's certainly the moon treaty from 1979. And most people don't pay any attention to it because only a handful of countries really signed on to it.

So most people don't view it as being anything worth of note. But when it comes to the Outer Space Treaty touches on this and we're talking about property ownership in space. because, you know, people want to go and, and lay claim to a, you know, a piece of property on the moon or a piece of property on Mars. And even now, this is, this issue's come up because you've got so many companies out there. You can look online and find companies that will sell you property, you know, sell you deeds to, to land on Mars and on the moon. And legally, can that be done? And the answer is no with current space law with the outer space treaty. it prohibits anybody actually owning a piece or an entire celestial body.

But when it comes to structures, like bases on the moon or on an asteroid or, you know, landing rocket ships or having gas stations or things like that on these bodies, the current law says that that's okay. You can do that. But here's where it gets interesting. So you can own the structure. You don't own the soil beneath. it. And that's again, another strike against people who want to own the minerals, want to mine

and own those resources. You can't lay stake to the ground below, but you can own the structure that you put there, but all structures, all structures, all like moonbuggies, you know, any transportation devices, whatever you have there has to be open and available for any astronaut. So, You spend the money and build this colony or settlement or whatever you want to put up there. That's great. But then you have somebody from another country come knocking on the door. You've got to like open it up and let them stay there if they want. It's really weird and makes it very complicated from a business standpoint, right?

I mean, if you're trying to operate a hotel or something where you're charging people on Earth to, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars to come up there and stay in your space hotel. but then like an astronaut from another country just like come up and you're obligated to let them stay there for free. So right. Interesting. Kind of interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Again, it's just like we're stumbling along as we continue to. Stumble is a good word. Yep. You know, explore the stars. And yeah, the Wild West I think is the best way we could possibly put this. And everybody's just interpreting these things the way they want and the way that fits their individual motives. Yeah.

Well, what I thought was really interesting, too, is you referenced several books. So there have actually been several books written about this already, which, you know, yeah, we've had these things going on since, like, the 60-70s. But the fact that, like, there have been full books and, you know, attorneys who've looked at this. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Space law is a very...

Oh, there you are? Yep. We glitched for a little bit, but we're back. But, yeah, space law is a very specialized area. There are people who specialize in this field. And in fact, NASA is currently hiring for a space law attorney, interestingly. But, yeah, I think back when I first started looking into space law, it was when I was doing research for the article I was writing for Open Minds at the time.

And that's when I really loaded up on my space law books. So I added to my library with some good space law books. But, you know, I mean, that was a long time ago, and there's certainly many more by now. And I also did some additional research. I think I even wrote about this when I was with Two the Stars. So space law has been, again, it's just something that I find incredibly fascinating. It's developing. It's a budding thing, even though it's been around since the 60s.

But we're just now seeing people think about this as a serious thing that because of of the current space race and all of commercial space activities happening right now, this is something that needs to be revisited and revised to have some working, from some legal framework that actually works. Right. And here's the thing. Let's say it's implemented. We're all on the same page here on Earth about space law. But then, you know, there's that curveball that could be there. And that's the possibility of extraterraterally. So again, I want people to go listen to the episode because you get deep into all this. But let's talk a little about where does ET play into all this?

It's one thing for us to create space law on our planet and colonizing and property and drilling. But then, like, boom, what if we get to a planet, let's say Mars and it's already inhabited? Does our space law even count anymore when it comes to another civilization? Yeah, where do you, what do you think about all that, Jason? Yeah, see, these are all big issues that a lot of people spend time thinking about and things that need to be addressed. But just like we see here on Earth with issues of jurisdiction and extradition, it's a mess. And, I mean, bring other planets into it, other worlds, other civilizations. It would be a nightmare.

Yeah, if we're on Mars and we lay stake to, you know, some area on Mars or, try to establish a colony or a settlement, and there are some native Martians there. They come and say, hey, you put this stuff on my land. Sorry, it's mine. What are you going to do? Can you take them to court in the United States? If it's a United States company, why would Martians even blink an eye at United States law from some civilization on earth?

It's, you know, just a complete mess. And I'm glad the UN is involved because it does need to be an international effort here on our planet when it comes to thinking about these issues and establishing these laws because it is any any sort of intergalactic legal issues that arise are going to affect the entire planet, all of humanity. So it needs to be a unified effort because we're then on a global scale, a planetary scale when it comes to the laws and the issues. And then, you know, I mean, we can't even fathom some of the issues that we'd face. Our laws are written to deal with. humans, with people.

Yeah. You know, and we're dealing with issues related to that now here on this planet. We're, you know, trying to get some of those laws that specifically only apply to people to apply to animals as well. You know, so then thinking extraterrestrial, it gets wild. And I love, I love reading some of the stuff that even goes down that route. But it's all just thought at this point. Yeah, until it becomes real, right?

Yeah. I think it's too far off. Right, exactly. Look at how rapidly we're moving. It's insane. Gary Voorhees is in the chat. He was one of the gentlemen that was first to witness the TikTok UFO event. So, you know, he has a lot to sort of to suggest with all this. And he says, Space Force. I mean, I remember talking to an Air Force guy recently. And I asked him, hey, why is the Air Force not really getting involved with all this UFO stuff? The Navy is, the Army is, the Army is. and he told me flat out, we are. We created an entire new branch of the military to deal with this. So now you've got the idea of space law, but then militarizing space too. I mean, did you watch the Netflix series that came out? I didn't.

I had high hopes for it, but I was turned off because of all the negative comments about it. It was, I liked it. I actually, I watched the whole thing. It was cheesy at first, but it actually got pretty deep and interesting. And it did show you kind of like, all right, new branch of the military, how do we make ourselves known? How do we make ourselves important enough to get the military budget we need as the new Air Force slash Space Force? So I thought that was pretty interesting. You know, they were training for battles on the moon or, you know, what would happen if we got there and China already had something there that we didn't know about and how do you deal with these sort of things.

So, you know, for as much as it might have been cheesy and a comedy, I thought they brought up some really interesting stuff that maybe will come true someday. I don't know. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. I'm hopeful. I am too. I am too.

Well, everyone, go check out the latest episode of the Unknown Podcast to learn more about space law. It's very interesting. But let's see. What else do we got, Jason? We've got, oh, the UAP Task Force. Now, this is something that we've known about for a while now. It's been making headlines all across the world. So, yeah, man, what do you think?

I know you're kind of on the side of you don't think this bill is going to pass necessarily. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. But a lot of people think it's going to pass with flying colors. Some think it's not going to happen. And we're talking about the Senate Intelligence Bill, not necessarily the UAP task force. That's happening. But let's go back for a minute to the bill. What do you make of this bill and is it going to happen?

What do you think? Well, that's the thing. I mean, we, everything we know about the task force is really nothing at all. You know, we've been given a sentence or two directly from the Pentagon. And that tells us some general things about what they're going to do. I mean, they want to understand UFOs better. but we still don't know what exactly they're going to do, how they're going to do that. If they're going to work with other agencies, we just know that it's going to be led by the Navy.

And that's really it when it comes to the task force. Everything else that people are assuming the task force is going to do is based on the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021 that has been attached to another bill that still has yet to pass the House. and we'll see if that does. The likelihood that it will pass has gone up, but still, because this was attached as an amendment, we don't really, we can't really see the final wording that was attached. So we don't know if a lot of the stuff about the requested report about UFOs, the assessment of UFOs, is even included.

And if it is, if it's been changed at all from what we initially saw in the original comments listed with the Intelligence Authorization Act. So again, we're just doing a lot of assuming. And in that, that is where we get the comment about information being collected or being given for this report by the task force, but not how the task force is doing that or what the task force specifically is doing. And people keep talking about the task force as this big thing that's going to be this open government giving all the information to the public.

Again, we don't have any concrete evidence that that is going to be the case. That's all coming again from the comments that were listed in this bill that say that this report being requested will be, they want an unclassified version of the report submitted. That's nice. That doesn't mean we want to broadcast something in a press release to the public. It just means it's unclassified. There are lots of things unclassified. You know, most things related to UFOs are unclassified, but it takes people like John Greenwald doing strategic and crafty digging

with cleverly worded FOIA requests to get those unclassified files released. So, again, we don't have any guarantee or even a mention that we're getting information from the task force released to the public. We just go back to the intelligence authorization. Act in the request for a UFO report, and that report is supposed to be given in an unclassified form. So everything after that is just speculation. Exactly. Exactly. Well, okay, so moving to the task force, I guess. What do you think? Are we going to get anything? I mean, again, that unclassified part of this is where we're all excited. Hopefully, maybe we'll

get some new videos. You know, Luis Alizando, Tom Blong, have sort of teased, like, there's more to come in terms of like what we're going to be releasing, whether it's through the New York Times, working with them or their television show, whatever it might be. What is this,

is this Project Blue Book as someone mentioned in the chat 2.0? Or you think we're actually going to get some information out of this? So, I mean, I would like to, I would like to see project. like Blue Book 2.0, but from what we've heard of the task force, this is completely different. This isn't a cast your net wide type situation where they're looking into, you know, citing reports from the public, from even the FAA or commercial airliners, commercial pilots. This is specifically looking at the military primarily.

There's hints that it's looking at other things as well, but it's primarily looking at military sightings and incursions over military installations and specifically focused on the Navy. So it's far from Blue Book in that it's not casting a wide net. It doesn't really seem to be wanting to take in a full picture of the UFO mystery. I hope that's not the case. And my biggest hope here and the biggest positive that I got excited about with the Intelligence Authorization Act, the comments, and the request for the report was this desire, seeming desire, that they want to improve communication. They want all these different agencies to communicate on this issue and share information. That's something that doesn't happen.

And obviously, if you want to get any sort of answers related to this, you need to be sharing information. But you're dealing with branches of the military. Branches of the military all have their secrets. they've got all of their, you know, individual, you know, projects they're working on. They're not necessarily going to be very excited to share all that with other branches. I mean, yes, we're all on the same team, but at the same time, they're their own branches, and that's number one. So it'll be interesting to see.

I want to see the communication lines improve. I want to see them establish, you know, a formal way of these different organizations communicating with each other, sharing that information. and assigning somebody to head that up, to be responsible for making sure this information gets shared. And then, you know, hopefully we can get some answers from that. But it's a long shot. Been down this road before.

And that's something that frustrates me with the task force. I mean, I hope they're looking at history and seeing what has been done before, seeing what didn't work before, and trying to overcome those hurdles and get beyond, you know, what Blue Book accomplished. I mean, there are lots of roadblocks here, and I hope they can achieve something that's worthwhile. But as you know, Ryan, I always say,

I support people doing all the things all the time. So good on them. Transparency, too. I mean, this is an opportunity for the public to trust our government again when it comes to this topic. So I'm hoping that we can build that relationship again. I think that's what people like Luis Elizondo are trying to do. is like show the public that you can trust the government, you can trust the military.

Completely, never, never going to happen. But it's a start. And I think the other really good thing you brought up is this idea of the intelligence agencies kind of coming together and figuring this out together rather than stovepiping and having different agendas in terms of what they're going to do with this information or how it can be implemented into certain branches of the military or stuff like that. So yeah, if anything, hopefully this will build a trust between us and a government who a lot of people think have lied to them for 70 plus years on the UFO topic. So, yeah, we'll see what happens.

We'll see. But it is interesting, you know, the push to change the narrative, change the mindset when it comes to military and UFOs. Yet some of the people leading that charge are saying, look, the military screwed all this up. The military's hiding all this information. Military didn't work, you know, when it came to this effort. So we love the military, yet military's good. Let's get back and have the military facilitate all of this. Yeah.

I love this by Audrey. She says perhaps the release of new information will come in the form of the new animated X-Files comedy. Oh, Audrey. So for those of you who don't know, Jason was the first to actually pick this up. and put it out to the Twitter sphere from what I saw. Fox is possibly developing an animated X-File show. Jason, what do you think, man? Are you going to watch it?

What can we expect from this? I know it's super early. Well, if it does come to fruition, of course I'll watch it. How many episodes that's to be seen. But going into it, again, with anything UFOs, you have to know what you're going into from the start. And, you know, if it's not something, knowing what you know going into it, if it's not something that would ordinarily appeal to you, don't bother with it. You're just going to be frustrated. But, you know, I think if you've been in the UFO field long enough, and I don't know, you just learn to not take yourself too seriously, first of all. Number two, don't take the subject of UFOs too seriously. Yes, it's a serious issue, but you've got to be able to laugh at it, too, and have some fun. I mean, this is not only our serious passion, but it's also our entertainment.

It's a subject that we're passionate about. It's a subject we like. So I like it in entertainment form as well. Now, when it comes to the X-Files animated show, it sounds like it could be really bad because this is, the way they build it is these are like flunky agents who take the cases that like even Mulder won't take. So it sounds like it's going to be really bad, but I like the X-Files. I like UFOs.

I like paranormal stuff. So I'll give it a chance. I need some mindless humor these days. We all do. We all do. And, you know, if the Simpsons episode, the, what is it, horror nights or whatever they do,

Tree House of Horror. There we have. Their X-Files episode was freaking awesome. So if it's anything, like that. I'm totally going to watch. I, hey, Gary Voharhe says the, the, what was it, the reboot of the X-Files was horrible, so he doesn't have much pain in whatever comes next. I'd have to agree with Gary on that one, unfortunately. But I guess moving on to the main event of the day, what we're here to really talk

about, man, we've been going for almost 28 minutes now, and we haven't even touched on it. So let's do it. Well, we'll have to wait until next time. Yeah, to be continued. Bye, guys. Yeah, yeah. We're going to be talking about the alien autopsy. Let's see if this works. Oh, there we go. I see it. Good job, Ryan.

Awesome. Technology. I'm trying to get better at it. These images probably bring back nightmares to a lot of you like it did me. This is from the alien autopsy film. Originally aired on Fox in 1995. with host Jonathan Frakes, I believe it was, from Star Trek. Yeah. Dude, I don't remember.

So 95, I was 12 at the time. And I had just had my UFO setting like months prior to this thing coming out. So I was still very huge. I know. And I was terrified, man, when I first saw it. I remember sitting down with my parents, you know, talking to my dad about like, UFOs and we have to watch this thing tonight. And we started watching it in like 20 minutes in.

I was like too scared to keep watching it. Yeah, dude, definitely. It's like, it's like when JFK was shot and we learned the news. I have to ask Jason, where were you when the alien autopsy first came into your personal zeit, I guess? So I was in high school. but I remember it was big news. It really was.

I mean, it made this random splash. And I remember seeing them teasing it in the periodic teases for the 9 o'clock news or whatever. They talk about how they were going to be talking about the alien autopsy coming up on the 9 o'clock news. And there were commercials leading up to it. I don't remember how far in advance, but I remember seeing it. I was like, what the hell is this? Alien autopsy. Are you kidding?

and it was being presented as this big event that was taking place and it was real and people were very serious about it. Yeah, I thought, I don't know, I was 15, so I guess I didn't think I was drunk, but it was weird. It was like an alternate reality. I was what's going on? But yeah, I just remember how big, big of a deal the media was making it. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I guess we should kind of dive into the whole story behind this because there's a lot to it. It's a little convoluted, but I should also mention, I think I mentioned this on my last stream. I actually, I recorded this Fox special off of our VCR back in those days when you could do that. And I brought it into school eventually.

And yeah, I brought it into school. And it was that time of the year where like the teachers were checked out. They would do anything to just not teach. And I was like, pop this in the VCR, let's watch this. And the minute I put it on, like half the class was like glued to the TV watching. And half the class was like scared. I remember this one girl, Liz, I won't say her last name, but she was petrified after we started watching it.

She was crying. She left the room, went to the bathroom, came back and said she got sick because of watching this. this alien autopsy. And my teacher never forgave me for that. I never, I did forewarner on what it was. And, uh, but hey,

she let us watch the entire thing. So that's her fault. Um, but yeah, those are my memories of the original airing of this thing. But, um, let's talk a little about how this all came to be.

Now we know it was a hoax. Uh, we know that this was made, uh, that, you know, um, I lost you again.

There you are. He's back. We know that this was made in England. So what do you know about the timeline of all this, Jason? I've got kind of the bullet points here, but Ray sentilly. Let's start there with this dude. Yeah. So Ray was a London businessman and he claims that he stumbled across a U.S. military cameraman in 1992 and he was in Cleveland, Ohio. And he was looking for like archive footage of Elvis and other rock and roll stars, I guess. And it's when he found this cameraman. And he claims that the film that he got from this guy showed the autopsy of a dead alien recovered from the crash in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. So he contacted this guy named Spiros. And Spiros was a filmmaker and Ray wanted to make a

documentary about this footage of a real autopsy of an alien. in. And Spiros wasn't having it at first because he claims that when he went to meet with Ray Santilli, Ray showed him the footage and Spiris was like, are you kidding me?

Because again, Ray was presenting this as being this real film and everything and Ray's all, this was obviously shot on video and it just like caught Ray off guard that Spiros could tell this right away and he saw, well, shit, the jig is up. So like,

Spirose left and thought it was done, but he talked to his friend, John Humphreys, who's a sculptor, really talented sculptor, and they decided that, you know, doing this might open doors for them. They had ambitions of like working for Hollywood movies and stuff like that. They thought this would get great exposure. So they decided to do it. So they did. And really, Spiros is the one who did almost everything for this film. He designed and directed the film.

He was the cameraman on it. His girlfriend did most of the research for the film. And there was a lot of research that went into this film, making sure that everything you see in the film is period correct, you know, from the clock to the telephone, to the instruments that the doctors use, to the procedures that the doctors are doing. A lot of research went into it.

And apparently that was his girlfriend who did that. She also played the role of the nurse in the film. and the set was built in her apartment or in her house in London. It was being renovated and they had like an empty floor. So they built a set right in her house. So, you know, they put this thing together and John Humphreys created the alien. He molded it from his 10-year-old son. And this thing came together.

They made their film and, yeah, came out in, yeah, 95. 95. And I think we, let's put this thing into numbers. Now, besides the Zabruder film and the Patterson, Gimlin, Bigfoot, this is probably in the top three video hoaxes. I mean, they're not hoaxes. The JFK assassination was not a hoax. It might have been a conspiracy. And same with Gimlin. We don't know. But in terms of controversial videos out to the public, this is like one of the top three. For two billion people have watched this footage. We've watched it three times already, just in this stream. But your history is great on this, Jason.

You know, the guy who made the alien, Spiros, the filmmaker. He is an interesting guy. And I've been listening to a lot of interviews with him lately. This guy is a magician, like a professional magician. And he used a lot of those techniques in making this film. You know, you look over here why we do this. this or your mind is thinking this. Well, and you mentioned the research. And I thought that was one of the most fascinating parts of all of this. The way they created the alien is they created an entire

backstory to this alien, where it came from, why it had six toes and six fingers. And I think it's amazing that they went to these lengths to try to fool the public. And that was their goal, was to see if people would believe this. So I thought, that was really interesting, too, the amount of research that went into this, this dead alien that we're seeing getting cut up. So they actually made two films, too. There were two alien autopsies. I talked about that.

Yeah, yeah. Would you mind covering that a little? Sure. So, yeah. After they shot the first one, Spiros' girlfriend apparently noticed a couple of mistakes in some of the medical procedures that they were doing. So wanted it to be redone. So they made another second alien.

alien. And in the second alien, the foam latex used to fill the dummy didn't work right. It developed an air bubble and left this hollow space in the leg. And so on the second one, that's why you have this leg injury. And they just like filled that with some bone and other stuff from animals and then took a blowtorch to it and made it look like a burned area. And there you have a leg injury. So that was in the second one, not the first one. So the second one is the one that you see. But Rodrigo asks here about, do you have any insights about the debris footage that came along with the alien autopsy? Now, from what I remember, this was part of the Spiros one, right? Yeah. So I think, I'm trying to remember. I think John Humphreys also designed all that stuff. Yeah, I think so too. Again, this is so

convoluted this entire story. There was, you know, the original footage, and then there was the tent footage, and then there was this, and then the remake and this and that. And the funny thing, too, is Ray Santilli, we mentioned the guy who kind of put this whole idea together to sell alien autopsy footage to networks and whatnot. He claimed that he had, he got the footage from a military person. who gave it to him. And he kind of stands to that to this day that,

oh yeah, I have the original footage. Yes, this is a remake, but I have the original footage. But from what I can tell is we've seen the original footage now, and that's what made Spiro say, this is a piece of shit, and this is horrible. No one's going to believe it. We have to remake this. So, yeah, there's, again, I'm trying to piece all this together,

There's so many different versions of this film than what we saw on Fox and all across the world. Well, and, you know, Spiros wanted to, the idea, the original idea was for them. And one of the reasons Spiros got behind it and John Humphreys as well is that the idea was to create this original film, fool everybody, and then later release a sort of how we did it video to show the world how they did it. because it is really, really, you know, especially for the time, it was really well done to create this period piece. It's pretty remarkable what they accomplished with that tiny set and one alien and, yeah, it was kind of fun. But then Ray decided that he couldn't do that because the story he kept giving Spiros was that he needed to recoup his money. Well, little did Spiros, no, this guy was making money left and right.

Right. So, and Spiroz was bound by an NDA, so he couldn't spill the beans, you know, but he felt comfortable speaking after the 2006 Warner Brothers movie came out called Alien Autopsy that Ray Centilley did. Yeah. Because the story was essentially told on that. And around that time, Ray started talking publicly, too, about the whole thing. So that's when Sparrow's came forward and basically told the entire story of it. Right. And now you've got these conflicting stories by both of them. From what I can tell, the Spiros guy is his story seems to check out. I mean, everything from, you know, showing how they made everything. And Ray Centility comes out of this thing, not looking too good.

Because like you mentioned, the idea was, like you said, to make a documentary about how they made it, how they fooled the world. And that's what Spiros wanted to do. Little did he know that Santilli was going and selling this footage all around the world, except for in the UK, where Spiros would find out that he was doing this. Because the deal was, we're going to give it for free to the news in the UK and see what they do with it. And that was the deal they made. And they did that. They gave it to the media in the UK for free.

But little did Spiros know Santilli was going all over the world in selling this. and said, here's the footage, do what you want, make a special, investigate it, do your thing. And making all this money. And Spiros had no idea that he was doing this. And he also didn't know that a movie was being made by Warner Brothers on the making of this film. And Spiros was left out of that as well. So I feel horrible for this guy. Like, yeah, he didn't help in fooling the world.

But, like, he's a magician. He does that for a living. and he poured his heart and soul into making this thing. And it fooled the world. But he saw nothing from it. He made no money off of it. He got duped by the guy who kind of spearheaded this whole thing. And I guess the rest is history.

Yeah. Yeah. And we also have Philip Mantle, one of the researchers in the UK, involved with all this too. Are you familiar with Philip Mantle and his work, Jason? I absolutely am. I absolutely am and, you know, I direct anybody to Philip Mantle to, you know, hear the full story about this. He's done so much research into it. He's, you know, interviewed all these people and met with them personally and continues to follow the case.

I mean, Philip is the guy, you know, to follow for this. And, you know, we certainly had him write stuff for us at open minds, you know, covering this story. And, yeah, his research is awesome on this whole case. And I should say that the whole impetus for this live stream today in this episode on the alien autopsy was because I just watched a documentary series that Philip Mantle made with a documentary crew about this entire affair. So if anyone is interested in watching that and hearing the expanded version of all this, I believe it's called Alien Autopsy, The Search for Answers. It's very well done.

And it goes through all of this, you know, step by step. That's what brings us to current day. All right. So, Jason, I know nothing about this part. I'm going to admit, I know there were emails that were part of the whole, you know, Admiral Wilson leaks and emails and Eric Davis, blah, blah, blah. Right. Yeah.

Let's, if you can, give us the concise version of how Kit Green is involved with this and why the alien autopsy is back in the news today. Yeah. And that's really all I can't give because, you know, I don't, I don't. I don't bother to follow most of this anyway, but yeah, it does go back to really Eric Davis memos. And Eric Davis memos being revealed to the public from Edgar Mitchell's estate. And this is just another one of those. And this is from a 2001 memo that Davis sent to Robert Bigelow and Column Kelleher about comments from Kit Green.

And Kit Green is a former CIA scientist. and Green apparently claimed that he was briefed at the Pentagon about an alien autopsy and shown photos that he says were consistent with Santilli's alien autopsy video. So he believed that the film was genuine. Now, this has been buzzing lately because allegedly, and I say allegedly, because I haven't seen confirmation of this, they just know it's been talked about, so I can't verify it. but allegedly Green now believes that he was being played by the Pentagon, being fed disinformation.

So I think that opinion has changed. So that's the word around the block. But, yeah, that's why this all came into discussion talking about this crappy alien autopsy film because of the Eric Davis memos. Yeah, yeah. And you know, Ryan, none of this matters because it's so ridiculous, again, because the alien autopsy film, to me, is very much like Billy Meyer photos, right? Because Billy admitted that his photos weren't real because the men in black switched out his film

with fake reproductions. But with the alien autopsy film, Ray Santilli, he did essentially admit in 2006 that the film isn't real, that he claims the real film was so badly damaged that it was unusable. So they shot this recreation of what was allegedly on the,

the film. So saying what you see is fake, we recreated what was real, but that is fake. So yes, the alien autopsy film is fake. But you know what? I'm super excited because, and this has been a long time in the making, but Spiros is still working on his tell-all book. He's going to get to reveal everything, you know, down to the backstory that you were talking about, how they came up with, you know, the backstory for this, this E.T. And every, you know, step of the process of how they did everything and how they they fooled everybody so i mean that's a book i'm definitely going to read absolutely i think it actually released releases this week if i'm not mistaken oh really yeah spiris is on he's on facebook so you can you can shout to this guy um i

highly suggest people do it he seems like a cool dude and hey he created one of the biggest hoaxes of all time. And, you know, if that doesn't give him some clout in the, the magician's alliance or what have you, then I don't know what will. Let's be honest. He's probably outdone every magician he's ever worked with. The best, best magic trick ever. Yep, yep, is to fool the public and to keep the UFO community hungry for that truth they want so bad. But Jason, this has been awesome brother. I'm glad, you know, despite our technical glitches, we're going to clean this up. It will be available as the audio version of somewhere in the skies very soon. But it's always a pleasure, my man, to chat with you. I'm happy we finally got to hear each other's stories about how we first

saw the alien autopsy. But yeah, before we go, what are you up to? What can we expect over at unknown and everything you're doing at Rogue Planet? Well, you know, now after this conversation, I want to do an episode about the alien autopsy because thinking back to my days at open minds, I've got got some other tie-ins there because, you know, we had some pretty good connections to some people who were involved with that film. And, you know, including one of my former co-workers actually saw the first version of the video. Really? Yeah. So I might have to get into that more on an episode of Unknown.

So you've given me an idea there. But yeah, the biggest thing I'm working on now, I'm working on my next book. I'm not ready to shed details on that yet. But another book is in the works, making progress slowly on that, but certainly more progress than I have for a long time. So another book is hopefully coming by the end of the year. I know that feeling well, my man. Well, before we go, I do have a really good question here from Rodrigo.

He asks Jason, Ryan, do you want disclosure or do you enjoy the UFO mystery? as it is. This is a question we get a lot. Do we actually, as UFO researchers, want that truth we've been seeking all along? Or is it the journey that matters? So, yeah, Jason, what do you think? I think this is a great question, and I think it's one that can't really be answered, because disclosure is such a complex thing and a confusing one at that, because, in my opinion, there isn't a single answer, right? And I don't think anybody has a single answer or multiple answers. that would definitively end, you know, our quest, our individual quests. I think if the government does make some announcement and reveal some information about

something they might know or about even about a specific race of extraterrestrials, a certain civilization, that doesn't end everything, you know, and in fact, that might just even signal a start of a brand new quest for us. fuel the fire because, you know, we know the universe is infinite. And I believe that life in the universe is also infinite. So just because we have one person or one group giving us one answer, that doesn't answer everything in the universe. And it's that quest for the unknowns in the universe that keeps us going. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think the journey is way more rewarding than the destination because we're never, I don't think we're ever going to solve the UFO mystery.

There's probably a million different answers to it, and it's probably far weirder and stranger than we ever could imagine. But hey, look, we're living in an age where we're getting acknowledgement by our governments, and that's more than we've had in a really long time. They've denied it for so long. So I think it's important to find those baby steps and those small accomplishments and move forward with it. The mystery keeps Jason and I both going. The mystery of the internet has been with us all day today. But thank you, everyone, for your patience. I know there was a lot of glitches and whatnot.

But we got to what we really wanted to. Again, I'm going to cut and splice this together and make a smooth podcast for you guys to listen to. But before we go, Jason, where can we find everything you're up to? Rogueplanet.com. That's our home for Everything Strange and on Twitter at Acentric. Perfect. And everything we can do is found at somewhere in the skies.com. Go listen to Unknown. Go learn about space law. And we'll see you guys on the other side. Jason, thank you for joining me again on Somewhere in the Skies, buddy. Thank you, brother. And thank you to everyone out there for watching. Take care. Keep looking up. Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague, your host of Summer in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer of

This guy's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your somewhere in the sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access, to the main show and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies H.Q. And help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com

slash somewhere skies. Or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. And keep looking up. Right here is some of the places where I had found the material where it had washed down from the hill slopes and against the sides and all down into this sinkhole area, concentrated by the action of erosion. This is where the runoff came down.

So we're talking the impact site. How far would you say up this way that would be? Okay, so the impact site started basically right at the base of that little hill right there, and it came down this way. It's the furrow, the gouge mark left by the object that was dragging across the ground. Being here and seeing the actual site, seeing the levels, seeing how everything runs down here, it makes complete sense to me what Frank has come up with. It's perfectly logical.

So it is this Arroyo? Yes, it's this one right here. This is the one where it came in and left the gouge mark. So it skipped the hillside. You know, I was really skeptical when we first came out, and I expected to see a place where humans were and that you would see evidence of humans. You would see trash. But now that I've been out here, there's no trash.

There's no proof that anybody's been out here, so it's really surprising that Frank found metal here. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Frank Kimbler, welcome, I believe, for the very first time to somewhere in the skies. Oh, hey, no kidding. Miss talking to you before, but not this time. You've got me right here, right in person, right? Right here. Right here in the crash site.

If you're watching this episode, guys, Frank has a. wonderful background for us about what we will obviously be talking about tonight. And that is the Roswell UFO crash, a case near and dear to many people's hearts. But, Frank, I mean, there's been a lot of talk recently of UFO crash retrievals, wreckage, this huge story that just exploded into the mainstream, which we will touch on later in the show. However, those are just stories until we actually, you know, see, touch, feel these things that they're talking about. And you are one of those individuals who's actually done that, who's gone out to a UFO crash site and found things and had them analyzed. So we're going to talk all about that tonight, obviously.

We're even going to talk about the materials that you handed over to me and I had tested. And the results were, let's just say, interesting. We have developments on that as well. And some new things you found out there at the Roswell crash site. But I'm getting ahead of our entire conversation, Frank. Let's go back. Let's rewind. For those of our audience who may not be familiar with you,

what made you want to become a geologist and what actually brought you to New Mexico? Give us the origin story, if you don't mind. You know what? It's an interesting pathway. We all lead like pathways to certain things. And when I was younger, I didn't really think about being a geologist. I started out being kind of like a pre-veterinary medicine person. But I got interested in the geology side because my parents would take me out. We'd go rock collecting. We'd love to drive on old back roads and explore ghost towns and everything in the desert southwest. And I love going out panning for gold and looking for, looking for things like that. So it was really, it was, that's what led me down that path to, to be a, to be a geologist. And then when I moved out to Roswell, Roswell, Roswell was kind of interesting for me. I always, I always loved the stories about Roswell, but I didn't know that much about it. But when I moved out here to work at the New Mexico Military Institute as an instructor,

teaching geology or sciences for both college and high school, I took a keen interest in doing the Roswell story. And I wanted to apply some of my scientific knowledge to try and find some touchy-feely stuff out there, not just pictures, but some things that might have been left over in 1947. So I guess my question to kind of play off of that is, did you have any knowledge for knowledge of the Roswell UFO crash? I mean, I would imagine moving to Roswell. He must have known something about the case or heard the mythology behind it.

What was your interest in UFOs prior to moving to Roswell? Yeah, interesting thing. Prior to moving to Roswell, it was just films and documentaries. like a lot of people have seen before. And I just took a more of an interest to it. Since I moved out here, I'm going, well, this is cool. And I'll have to admit to this, that it was probably at least six months

after I moved to Roswell before I went into the International UFO Museum. And I was walking through the museum there. I'm going, you know what, there's lots of eyewitness accounts. There's lots of information here, but there's no physical evidence. And I'm going, oh, I've got a little project that I'm going to be working on since I live here now and I work here. So I spent the time, I bet I probably spent two or three months sitting in the library, reading every book, watching every blasted documentary that there was on Roswell.

And I'm going, you know what, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to use my knowledge as a geologist. and some science. And I'm going to see if I can find some debris that was perhaps left over by the military back in 1947. That's the story behind that. It ended up being a quest. It's like looking for a treasure, like looking for a lost treasure. You get kind of obsessed with it. And I still am because I want that proof. And then at a younger, when I was, long before I moved out here, I was traveling across the United States. And I saw. saw a UFO here in New Mexico. It was far up in the sky.

A friend of mine, we were camped out at, I'm trying to think of the campsite. It's up by Las Vegas, Ute Lake State Park. It's where we were camping out at, and the Ute Lake State Park, we were camped out there. And my friend of mine, we were sitting by the campfire, and he says, hey, Frank, he says, look at that. And I looked up in the sky,

I says, oh, that's a satellite. You know, you see them all the time. A little point of light just drifting across the sky. He says, no, watch what it does. And I watched it for about another 15 or 20 seconds. And this thing made a perfect zigzag across the sky. And I'm going, it was making right angle turns. And then it disappeared over the horizon in the blink of an eye.

And I'm going, oh, I just saw my first UFO. So that was pretty excited. And I, you know, I think since since that time, I've had an interest in UFOs. I know that a friend of mine was into Project Blue Book when I was like 12 or 13 years old, 14 years old, whatever. I really enjoyed looking over, he subscribed to various UFO magazines when they were really popular, and I just got into it at a young age. It's fascinating. Tell me about it.

Yeah. Age 12 for me, brother. So I'm getting up there in Uphology. I'm no longer one of the young guns, as they call them. But that is what it is. Well, okay. So you moved to Roswell, you hear the story, you start going out. How did you find the site?

I mean, you know, my first time being out there was in 2018 with you. And let's be honest. I mean, throughout the decades, there have been, you know, rumors of where the site was. People say it's here. People say it's there. This, that, this, that. How did you personally triangulate or find the actual crash site? I'd love to hear how that process went. Okay. So it's well noted as to where it is now. It's documented fairly well. However, back when I started, it wasn't well documented as to its location. So what I did was I watched I watched some documentaries, especially that and read about the two sci-fi channel digs that were out there. And I read the documents that were related to that.

And they didn't give any locations to it, but they had, they made one tragic mistake. They put some pictures in there, some aerial photographs. And so being a geologist and knowing how to look at aerial images, and such, what I did was, call it back engineering. In fact, this picture that you're seeing right here, which actually helps a lot, that was one of the pictures that I originally saw. And I took that image, and it took me a day or two to sort of triangulate where it was out there, and then I had it.

Once I zoomed in with Google Earth is a marvelous piece of research material, but I was able to zoom in on the site. and find the exact location. And then the researchers like Don Schmidt verified it for me that I was actually in the right place. So that was the hard part. It didn't take me long to find it. And then I just went out there and started exploring is what I did.

Right. Well, and the image you're seeing here, and if you're just listening to this episode, guys, I would highly suggest watching the YouTube version. I do have visuals tonight. because, Frank, this is a screenshot of the television show Mysteries Decoded that you and I took apart in. And this was at your military institute. And this is you showing me these topographical and aerial shots.

And if I remember correctly, another interesting bit to this, how you kind of discovered this, there was two images you showed us. One, I believe, was from something like 1946 and then I think 1952. And there was a 54, excuse me. Thank you. Thank you. And there was a huge difference between the two that kind of led you to also believe that this could be the site. Is that something you could share with us?

Oh, absolutely. Looking at before I went out there, I did lots of investigative work, of course. and I compared the 1946 images with the 1954. I couldn't get anything after 47 other than the 54. So comparing the two images side by side led me to believe that there was definitely some disturbances out there and that was worth taking a look and sort of honed in on the specific area because of what was showing up in the pictures. This image right here is from 1950. It's the first aerial photo I could find of this area after 1947.

There's something that I kind of honed in on in this picture pretty fast, and you'll notice this white area right here. There are a series of steps. Can you see the little white steps? The little steps. I refer to them as dozer tracks. It looks like the sharp edges of where bulldozers have come in and sort of scrape the land.

The military was cleaning the area up, And they were very systematic. Now, if you come over here on the 1946 picture, that line is gone. So this has been changed between that. The damage that was done to the area happened after 46. Now, what happened to the land between 1946 and 1954? I have actually found metallic artifacts within this area and along the edges of those dozer tracks, small pieces of material.

Those are easy to do. When you can compare and sort of flash the images back and forth, same resolution, same size pictures, it's kind of like they do to find planets up in the new planets. It's the way they used to do it. You could flash the images very quickly and watch for very subtle changes and movements on the film. And that's exactly what I did with this. Right, right. And then the other interesting thing while visiting the Institute with you that you showed us

was this state-of-the-art augmented reality sandbox. Describe this for us. I was stunned when I saw this thing. I think I have an image here. Let me pull that up. The sandbox is absolutely amazing because you can project topographic landscapes on top of it and draw in the sand

and have it recreate the location. So what I did was I built the crash site. in the sandbox so that I could show where the object came down and where it traveled to, basically, or not travel to, but call it the fur or the skid marks that it left. And that's, it's a fun tool. I use it in my classroom for basically topography and geology-related things, and it gives the students, they go crazy when they see it. I love it. And again, this kind of showed, you know, for me at least, and you can see the furrows that you've created in this image that we're looking at here of the water and how the runoff would eventually lead anything from the supposed impact site of the Roswell UFO.

Yeah, the greens and the browns are, of course, higher ground and then that light blue. is the lower terrain. So it makes it really easy to sort of highlight and show people what's going on. So what I used to teach school with here, it's called an augmented reality sandbox. And this is a nice digital representation of the crash site. And you can make it rain simply by holding your hand over the top of it like this. You can make it rain. So you can actually get a picture of how the water actually rolls off the land and where it accumulates,

which is what I use to help locate some of the artifacts. So utilizing this, can you explain the crash site to us? Oh, absolutely. The object came in out this way, and it came in this direction, and it made what's referred to as a furrow. It spread out kind of in a V shape, and then according to the eyewitness accounts, there was also a gouge mark.

And it's kind of an interesting thing, because the metal artifacts that I have found seem to be centered right on the area where the gouge mark is. How big was this crash site? This area is probably maybe twice the size of a football field. But the debris was scattered for a distance of more than half a mile. So, okay, so you use this, you find what you believe is the site, you go out there.

So that's where I think a lot of people out there want to know. what did you go out there with? What sort of instruments or tools did you use to start looking for wreckage, for debris that might have been left behind? Yeah, give us an idea of what was kind of your arsenal. Yeah, my arsenal of tools. Of course, it was the maps, but I went out, and in fact, this is the location right here.

It's just in the background behind me. I went out with a Fisher gold bug metal detector. it can find it was an older one. I still use it. The thing is amazing. I think it was like the second gold bug that ever came out. That thing is so powerful and so sensitive that it can detect a BB-sized gold nugget down to about three inches. And I used it.

I used that exact same metal detector in Arizona and also here in Arizona to find thousands of dollars worth of gold nuggets. So I'm very good at using it. And so I took that out there and I started sweeping all of the runoff areas. In fact, you can see one of the runoff areas directly behind me in this image. So I started sweeping the area with a metal detector. And I got news for you. I was out there for a good solid six or eight hours swinging that metal detector and didn't find a thing until the end of the day. And then I got this beep in my headset because we're in a headset at the time and got pretty

excited. I was in an ant hill, so I dug down about an inch into the ant hill, and here was this tiny little piece of metal. And the scary part about it is, when I held the piece in my hand, I'm going, oh my gosh, is this a piece of an alien spacecraft? It was so lightweight, it blew it out of my hand. And then I had to go and spend another three, four minutes trying to find where it had hit the ground. that's a true story. So that was the first fine, but it was not easy. Like I said, it took six or eight hours of sweeping the metal detector. And I didn't find anything during that time.

So my arm was about ready to break off. And it was getting towards the sun was going down. I'm very persistent, very tenacious when it comes to looking for things. Because I knew something was there. And then I found. that piece. And that's what started. I named it A.H1, stands for Ant Hill 1. And that's what started all of this, the whole thing, because then I came back at later times. And that's when I found the buttons. It was following week, following day. I can't remember that was a long time ago.

But I found the buttons. That's them right there in these pictures. So the military buttons were found, and there was three of them spaced a couple of feet apart, they have been identified as basically military fatigue buttons dating somewhere between like the late 40s, early 50s. So I know they were out there. This stuff was buried three, four inches deep and hard pack clay. So they were old, really, really old. And these are cool.

I think this is probably one of the coolest things that I found, which is, you know, if you want to think of smoking guns, You know, military can't say we weren't out there because these buttons are military fatigue buttons. And I found three of them out there. So they were on their hands and knees, maybe digging up stuff or I don't think they had an orgy out there ripping the buttons off. But there's definitely military buttons. So they were found out there. Right.

Well, and the big thing about this to you is I was stunned when you showed me these buttons. and you were able to, you know, get them analyzed that they do date back to when the actual crash happened. I think a lot of people's question is, well, they got everything. They recovered everything. And these things, you know, they would have found everything out there and cleared it. But, I mean, come on. For anyone to believe that they got every single tiny piece that was out there, it makes perfect sense. especially when you said these military officers sent out there to clean up the debris site were on their hands and knees.

It's very possible. So a button or two popped off and they'd never notice. The other big thing is you said that they were found, you know, below the surface. And this would make perfect sense since so much time has passed, right? Deep. You know what? I don't know whether anyone has ever seen. And I'm sure lots of people have seen pictures of aircraft crash sites.

The debris is scattered everywhere. And it makes a mess. And the pieces, yeah, some of the pieces are really big, but some of the pieces are so tiny that they're going to get buried. And you have to understand that back in July of 1947, that was, it was raining. It was storming. Stuff could have been washed down animal burrows, carried down slope, washed into the little gullies, covered up by gophers. all kinds of things can happen. And so the idea of the military finding every scrap, I think, is kind of bogus.

They could not have found every scrap. So I've been to other types of like super secret sensitive, well, not really secret, but things that were military origin. One of them was the outside of Albuquerque, there was a broken arrow event where on a approach. The aircraft literally the Bombay door opened up and they dropped a hydrogen bomb on basically as they were coming in for a landing just outside of Albuquerque to Kirkland Air Base there. And when that thing hit the ground, of course, if it would have exploded, there would have been no Albuquerque left because it was in fact a hydrogen bomb. But it had some some detonators on the inside that essentially blew up.

It scattered stuff over maybe half a mile or square a mile. Military went out there. They supposedly cleaned it all up. Of course, that was a top secret piece of equipment there. They didn't get it all because some acquaintances of mine had gone out to the location, which was documented and with metal detectors, and they found pieces of the hydrogen bomb. I have pieces of that as well. So they, you know, the government claims to find things and even the SR-71A crash sites,

which was a top secret, you know, spy surveillance plane, when those things crash, they scatter stuff everywhere and people to this day find stuff with metal detectors. It's, you can't, you can't not find stuff. If you know what you're doing and you have a good metal detector, you can find stuff. Not an issue. Right. Right. And so we're going to get to, kind of my portion of this investigation with you. But I do want to mention, you know, this area is vast. And I think my investigative partner that looked into this with me, Frank, a Navy veteran, Jennifer Marshall, extreme skeptic, went into this thinking, oh, this kook is going to bring us out to some random part of the desert. and there's going to be

Coke bottles out there and beer cans and that's what he found. But man, we got her on camera, literally admitting this is not what I anticipated. I had no idea how remote

this area was. No life out there whatsoever. There'd be no reason for anyone to be out there, partying, drinking beers, shooting off guns. I know there was ammo found out there at one point, military ammo as well. So, I mean, just going out to the site, man, it changed the mind of an extreme skeptic in my partner almost immediately.

You know, up on the ridge, actually it would be to mine, let's see which way it is, to my left. So actually, yeah, to my left in the picture. up on the ridge, I was out there with Hansen from Factor Fick. And we, yeah, Ben Hanson. We were out there with metal detectors. And we, and it's a good distance from this. It's probably quarter, half a mile away. We found some snuff cans, tobacco cans up on the ridge. and some, of all things, a button from coveralls, but they were modern around what appeared to be a camp thing up there.

But that was a good distance from this. This particular site, which is directly behind me, there's nothing out there. There's no, there's zero trash, nothing that you can see, you know, that people had been out there. Now, interesting thing, the little white area, that is behind me, if looking at the image, if you look to the right, just below that hill,

there was something kind of odd back in there. And what was odd is that, and these are old, it looked like somebody had taken several cartons of nails and just scattered them all over the hillside. Now, this is an old trick. It's used to basically throw people off when they're looking for things. I know that when I was hunting gold nuggets, when people would find an area that had some gold nuggets in it, they would frequently go back to keep,

if the information got out, they would frequently go back and throw a bunch of nails and odd things in to discourage people from finding anything. So that's really the only thing that I have found out there that might be considered trash. But, you know, as far as like the buttons and the little bits of metal, they were buried deep. So it's remote. You can see in the picture. There's not much out there. Well, okay.

So I guess my next question, Frank, would be, before we get to the first initial testing of some of these metals, in total, how many pieces have you uncovered out there at the crash site? To the best of your memory. Over the years, probably 20 or 30. of which I don't have very much of it remaining, probably less than half, maybe a third of it. Some of it was destroyed during testing. Some of it during the little misunderstanding I had with the Bureau of Land Management,

some things were distributed around the country to make sure that they didn't get taken away. So that's, but I have a little bit of it, yes, in safekeeping. Okay, good. That's very good to know. Because, yeah, a lot of people don't understand that for a lot of these tests, things do need to be destroyed, broken down, dissolved in order to do a proper analysis. So it's unfortunate, but, you know, that's sometimes the only way to test these sorts of things. Am I correct?

Yeah, no, no, it is. there are ways to do testing on this material that is relatively non-destructive, but there's only a handful of labs that can actually do it, and it's very, very expensive. NASA is one of them. You can take a tiny little piece of something and analyze all the isotopes in it and everything without really destroying it. The tried and true method is using ICPMS, and it's a fancy name for basically, You dissolve the metals or whatever you want to look for in a liquid and could be an acid, whatever.

And then you put it in the machine and analyze its spectra. You can get down to parts per billion with that. But it's also in the process you end up destroying the entire specimen while you're doing it. Yeah. The sacrifice of science, right? Well, okay, I want to get to the first testing of some of your medals, but you mentioned the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management. This was a very interesting story that kind of happened. This is actually, I had met you at a UFO conference years prior.

However, this was the first time I had seen your name out there, like, in national news. And this was because the Bureau of Land Management actually wanted to have a meeting with you and possibly even confiscate some of your material that you had found. Do you mind running us through this story? You know what, that whole thing, and I'm not going to be. beat up the Bureau of Land Management because that whole thing was a was a misunderstanding more than anything else. They wanted to see it. They wanted to talk to me. I don't believe their intentions were to confiscate the material at all. And I can't beat them up. I think maybe that,

well, you've known me long enough to know that sometimes I get a little excited and, but as I get older, I've come to the point where I don't. I try to think through things a little bit, and this was something that, let's just put it this way. I misunderstood their intentions, and they didn't mean to do, they didn't mean to scare me.

That's essentially what it boiled down to. So it's all, everything's fine. And it's, you know, it made a big splash because I made a big splash. out of it, but if I would have let it alone, it probably would have been okay. There you go. That's what we need to hear, man. I wish more people would kind of take that very, you know, very, how would you even say it? Mature route when it comes to this, because there's so much conspiracy theory that goes with a lot of this. And look, your involvement with this?

You know, Ryan, I've made a lot of, I've made a lot of mistakes, Ryan. And we learn from our mistakes. And one of them is I've got to learn not to be quite so hot-headed about some of this UFO stuff and just apply logic and some science behind some of the stuff that I do and kind of think through it before I engage my big mouth. Welcome to Uphology, my friend. I wish, again, I wish more people would use you as an example for that. But besides the BLM thing, there are.

there is another sort of conspiratorial angle to a lot of this. You got tests done with some of your materials. And I want to kind of walk through the process of your first tests with these. And what ended up happening with some of these materials? So, yeah, can you kind of walk us through the first time you got these and got them testing? Yeah, tell us who, what, where. All right. So the very first test.

that I had done was on this sample called AH1. And the AH1 sample, I basically contacted the New Mexico Tech over in Socorro, and they analyzed it with a scanning electron microscope, and they gave me some elemental stuff on it. And it came back as being a rather interesting alloy. Might have been an aircraft alloy, might have been unusual, just looking at the compositions of it. So I elected to have some magnesium isotopes done.

And let me explain what that does. Magnesium isotopes are like a fingerprint. They will tell you where this stuff comes from. It can tell you whether it came from the moon or whether it came from Mars or whether it came from some extraterrestrials, some other star someplace. It can even tell you what part of Earth that it came from. Did it come from out of Africa? Did it come from the ocean?

Because we did a lot of mining, both in Africa. And it can narrow down exactly where this stuff comes from. So I had some magnesium isotopes done through Evans Analytical. It's EG&G. And I didn't tell them that it was Roswell stuff. I told them that it was some aircraft, crashed aircraft, that I. found and I wanted to find out where the magnesium possibly came from. So they analyzed it for me. And when the results came back, I can't say that I was stunned. I was pretty close to it. When it came

back, I'm going, well, this is, this signature is not, it's not Earth. It's someplace else. But then, going back and looking at the data very carefully, because I took a lot of scientific flack on that, I looked at it. And what happened on that is the resolution of their instrument was not very high. And it was right at the margin of error. And I'm going, yeah, it's at the margin of error, but it's not dead center. It's on the outer margin. So I elected to have some more work done.

And this is where some things got very interesting. That some arrangements were made with ASU. Arizona State University. And there was only three people that knew about the research that was myself, the lab technician, or the lab manager, and a geologist that set it up for me, who was also a UFO person. And so we made arrangements to, I wanted to hand-deliver it, but I elected to send it out. So I sent it to them. And this is another thing that I've learned to deal with now. You always take pictures of things, you always like make, you do, you document everything very, very well before you send it out. So I sent this material out FedEx. It was essentially double packaged. It was,

or triple packaged, and even tape was around the object. I put the object, my family saw it. My family saw me put the, the fragment of H1 in the plastic container, and then it was all sealed up and sent FedEx. Well, when it arrived at the lab, I get this telephone call that said, where's the sample? And I'm going, the samples in the plastic container that's inside the FedEx package. And the lab manager looked at it and said, well, there's a plastic container. The plastic container is all wrapped up with tape, but there's nothing in the plastic container.

And I'm going, I put it in there. and then we started going through all the steps. She says, well, it sat in our shipping receiving area for a little bit more than an hour before I got it. And it got there and it was sent FedEx. They even paid for the FedEx shipment to go out there. What happened to that sample, I don't know. I blame them for it because I think when they opened it up, static might have lost it or something.

This is another one of these things where I was putting the blame on them, ASU, you and because of that they said, oh, you know, we're not going to do anything for you again because this made kind of a splash and I should have just kept my mouth shut. But it was one of these things where I got pretty upset about it because that was 30% half of that specimen gone. And that is not a good thing because that one was a very small specimen. To this day, I don't know what happened to that sample. It just completely disappointed. appeared. At least that's what the lab manager told me. And ASU was not, not happy with me for making a big stink about it because I said it was their fault. It may not have been their fault,

but who knows? That was all over the internet, all over, all over media that was available to me at the time, and it disappeared. Now, I did have somebody email me. It was Alejandro, Rojas. So Alejandro sent me an email and he said, Frank, he says, did you know that you can open up a package using ultrasonics? And then you can seal it back up again and nobody knows that you've gotten into it. And I'm going, really? And I did some research on that. And that's actually a fact. You can use some ultrasonics to open up packages, sound waves, and take the material out, seal it all back up again.

It doesn't even look like anybody's touched it. Way cool. Just adds to the conspiracy on this. And to this day, that package has, the package is there, but the contents of it have disappeared. Now I'm careful. Now I either hand-deliver the specimens.

And it's always better to hand-deliver and be present when analytical work is done to make sure that it's done the right way. And if there's no mistakes on it, because I know enough about it now so that I'll realize what goes on if there's mistakes. Now, and yeah, I have shipped some things out before, but it's all been photographed and documented by multiple people. So now I haven't lost anything since then, not a single thing. So that's the story of my now.

Yeah, yeah, very interesting to say the least. Now, were there any other test done between that one and the one that I did in 2008? Had there been any other testing? Yeah, there's actually there's one other isotope tests that came out as being inconclusive. It's another one that didn't quite show up right. And it was essentially on that same specimen. Another one. So there was two tests done and they weren't exact enough to get the answers.

And then some of the other fragments have been analyzed and they have come back as being granted. And I will admit to this. There was one or two pieces came back as being aluminum can material. That's easy to recognize because that stuff was found essentially on the surface and it's very shiny. So the material that is found on the surface and is very shiny may have been trash and how it got out there and shredded up into little pieces. I have some scientific speculation on that that it was probably whipped up in cow feed or something, and the cows ate it and essentially pooped it out. Don't know for sure.

But the rest of this stuff, the old gray stuff is different. It's thicker. It's not shiny. It's corroded aluminum. And it's been out there for a long time because it's been buried really, really deep. So that's the – and anyway, getting back to the analytical work. Some of it, like I said, a couple of pieces came back as being trash. I will admit to that where it came from.

I don't know. But there are some people, and the people, there are some people. Great, there's people out there. There are some of the fragments that came back as being alloys that are mysterious, if you want to think of. In other words, I can't figure out what they are. Aircraft alloys. maybe how they got there, I don't know. There's also some unknown, some unknown alloys.

There's like a catalog. You can plug these chemistries into a catalog online, and it'll tell you what alloy that it's made out of and what the designation of that alloy is. And some of the pieces are unknown alloys. Can we make them on Earth? Yeah, if we put the right chemistries together, we can make the stuff.

But other than that, That's what I found. Yeah. Right. Okay. So let's fast forward to 2018 when I was working with this television production company. And we went out to the crash site with you. I think I have.

Yeah, I got an image here. This is you bringing, yep, Jennifer and I out there with your son. One of my bucket list moments of my entire life, Frank. That was just incredible. I will never ever, ever forget that day. And yeah, you kind of ran us through, you know, why this was the site. You showed us the Arroyo's where the impact was. The area kind of where we're standing is where some of the debris was found.

And you entrusted us to bring these somewhere to get some of these tested. And I'm just going to be frank. Not you, Frank, but Frank in general. I'm going to be frank. I was extremely disappointed in not only the initial results given to us by the lab, but how the entire thing was handled. So I kind of want to walk through that with you, if you don't mind. Going up to 2018, this is me.

holding one of the pieces that you showed me. And again, these materials were so light. It just astounded me. You know, when I was holding these, I was, I just couldn't believe that whatever this was, was as light as a feather. Inside this container, they are the material that I picked up out at the debris field. You can see how they're all twisted and mangled up. These specimens are untested. But these are some of the things that I would like to have some really good science done on these things.

Would you mind if we held them? It's fine. Go ahead. Sure? You're not going to get some kind of disease off of them or anything. This one, to me, is interesting. It looks like it's almost curled back. It's bent. When metals are subjected to a lot of stress, they fold and bend and twist around.

And not only that, they usually end up being small pieces with jagged edges or the edges might be melted. It seems to fit a scenario that something crashed at a high speed. And that is the kind of thinking that I went as well. This is insanely light and very, very strong. You're right. It's incredibly strong for its size. But not only that, it was bent, it was curled back, which kind of deduced to my partner and I that whatever these things were, were under high stress and some sort of, you know, really extreme. either heat or some sort of pressure or impact, if I'm not mistaken. Is that kind of what you deduced as well?

That is true. Under a microscope, you can see that some of these have, they're melted. Some of them have what are called explosive curling. So when you look at it, they're curled up. That looks like it's been like when you shoot a, when you shoot a can or you shoot a piece of metal, as the bullet goes through, it kind of curls up on the backside. And this shows explosive curling. It also shows some rather interesting things.

It shows explosive impacts. So there are several of these specimens that have holes punched through them, and these holes are generated by explosives. How do I know this? Or it's been through an explosive event because it makes that same, when you flip it over, it's end in it on one side, but on the other side, you can see where the, whatever projectile was exited. It literally curls the metal back and folds it back on itself. So, yeah, it's been through, for lack of a better term, a lot of these pieces have been through hell and back.

So a little unusual. Unusual. And does make you wonder, you know, had they been through some sort of explosion, which could mean a million things, but could also mean some sort of craft making an impact and essentially exploding. It could. I want to get to what we showed on the television show, which was very little. Again, something I wasn't too pleased with in terms of the work done by the lab that I worked with. And I'm not casting shade.

They did what they did. It is what it is. I wish there was more due diligence and follow up with that. But between you and I, we were able to get the results of the tests. Now, in the show, we showed the two of the individuals who worked with us, very nice guys who did the tests. And it came back that most of it was just aluminum, which on the surface seems very normal, prosaic. But the further you dug into the actual results, the more it wasn't so simple. none of this ever is. So if you don't mind, Frank, I'm actually going to pull up the results that we got.

Oh, absolutely. So this is one more image I'm going to show. This was Atlas testing laboratories. This is where they were dissolving or had dissolved the specimens and they were getting ready to test it, which is what the little vials are for right there. That's the liquid itself that they did the testing on. Yep. So I believe it was six samples we gave. Three were in conclusion. due to organic material being found on them. Yeah, that was interesting. I didn't quite understand that. Could you demystify that for me? Is there a logical explanation for that?

I can try to demystify that. So three of the samples came back. They said they couldn't analyze it because there was too much organic material. When they dissolved it, there was a bunch of organics that showed up in the liquid. So here's two scenarios on that. Number one, they didn't clean the samples because the samples were semi-clean out of the ground directly from me. So they should have cleaned them. They should have cleaned them with maybe alcohol or benzene or some kind of organic solvent just to clean the surface to get any contamination on them off.

So possibility, the organics might have been from the site. Now, the other scary thing is that if the samples were cleaned and they dissolved them, that means there was organic material within the metallic structures, and that becomes a problem. And I'll tell you why. Yeah, what is that? I don't know of the technology. This falls into the realm of essentially organometallic or organic metallic alloys, which exist.

But why they would be out there, I don't know. And if the fact that they couldn't analyze them because it was organics tied up in that aluminum kind of alloy, that is pretty exotic. So it was either a legitimate mistake or it's something exotic. And now we have a mystery on our hands because we don't have any analytical data to go. because those sent to go along with this because the samples were destroyed. This is just me living in regret. There you go. There you go.

You know, if you remember correctly, I said, hey, can we get the liquids back? Right. Never got the liquids back. And that's because they were considered hazardous materials. So they could not ship those liquidy things to us. And that is really tragic because we could have taken that liquid and had the liquid analyzed even further. So that would have been amazing if that could have been done.

So that was, I wouldn't say fishy. It's just they're following the rules and regulations for analytical laboratories and through the mail system. But I think if it was sealed properly, they could have sent it through UPS or something ground. I would have gone over and picked it up by hand if that would have been the case, if they would have given it to us. So that's neither here nor there. Those are the only two scenarios. Either there was something really weird in the samples or the samples were not clean properly before the test. Got it, got it.

All right. Well, for the other three samples, we do have those results. So I'm going to go ahead and pull those up here. Give me one sec. Let's see if I can do this. All right. There we go. So we've got the official results here.

And I kind of just want to run through this. There's four pages, Frank. Let me know what's important and what's not as I'm scanning here. I know it might be a little hard to see. Let me see if I can zoom this. There you go. That's good. Oh, now I can read it myself.

There we go. So I want to go ahead and start with the first page here that we see there. Is there anything interesting on those top or something? results there of NH1 and DF315B? Actually, there is. The one that's the N1-1-1, this just basically what it's showing is it shows the amount of molybdenum in there, which is, was this particular one,

we wanted to have it analyzed because there was some analytical work that was done at another lab. showed a very high concentration of molybdenum. And this just basically showed that there wasn't 3% maledinum in this. There was 0.004. So that lab, which was up in Canada, and I wasn't present during the analytical work on that. That was another documentary on another TV show. This is what happens when a scientist, meaning myself, is not there to question the results as they come out.

And it took me a while to get those results back. So there was no molybdenum in it, which means that they made errors or basically made errors in their isotopic work that they did when they said it was terrestrial and not extraterrestrial in origin. Anytime you make a 3% error in the concentrations of stuff, that means your lab techniques are not very good. So anyway, so this this was good. The N1-198.6%. It just shows the major concentrations of elements. And then as we scroll down, there's more. And then the DF-315B, once again, shows very little molybdenum in there, but it shows that it has a high aluminum concentration, 92.5.

And then we kind of boil down. Now, this one is interesting. The one called Magstress. Magstress says 0.04 aluminum, 0.002 malibdom. and this one was, the reason why it's called Magstress is because this was a piece of iron that I found buried three or four inches deep. No rust on it, not a speck of rust. Something buried in the ground that long should be rusty. This thing was not rusty.

So we analyzed this, and when we scroll down, I'll tell you there was a problem with this when they analyzed it. Now, here's the other part. SH1 couldn't be analyzed. That was the one that was really weird because SH1 was, that's the top one on this. SH1 was one that we were looking for molybdenum. They didn't study it. Roswell Sink, once again, organic material and untested. Could not be analyzed because of organic material.

Basically, the lab said that they couldn't touch these because the organics would clog up their little atomizer nozzles that they had, and they couldn't do it. The rest of this is just they were using the National Institute of Standards traceable elements in that as a standard to compare against. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Now comes the fun part. Okay. Yeah, this is the page I was looking forward to. Now we really get in the weeds of what was found in these. Yeah, and N1, the N1 sample, 0.05 copper, 0.5% iron, small amounts of gallium, more than half a percent of magnesium, some manganese in there,

nothing in nickel, silicon, it's got 0.29 silicon. The rest of this is sort of insignificant that's in there because it's very small. They basically came back and, oh, back up to this. Oh, sorry. Scroll back up. Here we go. Yeah. They said that this was basically a 304 aluminum alloy, similar to a 112.0.000.

They were wrong on that because I sent this over to, I sent this data over to, well, they used to be Alcoa. And I had one of their, they've changed their name because the business changed. So Alcoa is an aluminum manufacturing company, and they make all kinds of alloys. And I had those people looked at it. They says, well, no, this is not a 1100 series alloy, and it's not a 304 alloy. And they gave me some examples of what it might be. So they were wrong on this. A 304 is definitely an aluminum can, but it doesn't match an aluminum can.

And so it's not an aluminum can alloy. It's basically end up being kind of an unknown alloy. We have no idea what it is. Could we make it here on Earth? Yeah, we could make it. But it's an alloy that is not common. And that's what it basically come out to when I did more research on it. Interesting.

Now, when you did that research and you said, you know, it could be made here. But what would it, would something of that, series, that high of a series, I guess. What would that be made for if I could ask? It's not even a 11, it's not even a 1,000 series alloy. It's something else. Thousand series are used for pie plates and basically aluminum foil. So they were completely wrong on that because to say that it's a 304 aluminum and that it is a 1-1-00 is, the two don't even match. You can't even put those in the same, the same area. So they were wrong on this. And I caught that real, real quick. Right. I remember getting the voicemail from you.

Yeah, that was the interpretation. That's the one I got rather hot about on that. I'm going, these guys are all washed up. They have no idea what they're talking about. Let's see. Okay. Anything interesting here? Yeah, this one was, this one was interesting. this one, you know, one of these, this one came out as being, and I don't have that, I don't have that, I made a graph. And I, you know, what I should do is, Ryan, is I'm going to send the, I'm going to send the graph to you where it compares these things. Oh, great.

You don't have that graph. I'm going to send that graph. And that graph actually compares some known things to some unknown things. and it's a very colorful graph done with. And as soon as we get done with this, I'll send it out to you. Okay. Because to try to explain what's going on here, this was another one that basically ended up being kind of an unusual alloy. So it might be an aircraft alloy of some kind.

Don't know why it's out there. I don't know. But this was another one that was scroll up a little bit. And let me see what they said it was on this one. Ah, they didn't have any information. You can just keep going down on this. This one was, yeah. So this one ended up.

Oh, let me see what they got. Now, this one, this one is, this one, they were correct on this. So I stand corrected on this. This was a 304 alloy. But notice, notice, they compared it against the 3.004 aluminum standard. And it matched. however the 1,100 series and a 304 doesn't match. So this one, I will admit to the fact that this one was, in fact, similar to a 304 alloy,

which is used for the sides of aluminum cans. That will I admit to. This one, they did right. Okay. The other one, the 1100 series, wasn't right. But when you look at these, like I said before, and I'm not trying to hide anything or loot to anything, there are three or four different kinds of material out there. Some of it is bright and shiny, and that's modern stuff.

The stuff that's buried is the stuff that's really old. Oh, the mag stress. This one, do the math. Take 88.9% iron and add in all of this. Where's the rest of it? That's all I've got to say. Do the math on this. Interesting.

Something is not right with this. I have no idea where. the rest of this is. But anytime you weigh up this, it should be really, really close to 100%. It might be 98 or 99, but if you do the math on this, I don't think this comes any. I mean, look at the numbers. You've got 88.9 iron. The rest of these are really tiny. The other one is 0.7. Okay, so that takes us up to 90, give or take a little bit. Point three. Yeah, they did something wrong on this because it doesn't add up. It's not there. So the results on this were bogus, completely bogus.

Okay. And see, like this is a learning process for me because I, you know, going into this project, like I was told this was a very prominent metal testing lab. And I'm sure they have done great work in the past. However, it seems like they did make a lot of kind of amateurish mistakes going into this. Well, I don't know. What do you think? You know, one of them was not cleaning the material.

And granted, some of this stuff was folded over, but they could have unfolded it. They could have stuck it in some, like, organic solvents to, it's not going to hurt the metals any to get rid of that surface stuff that's on it. And they could have done, been careful. The one that's really disturbing is this iron one. This iron one just doesn't match. So they put wrong numbers in there. And I don't know why. I mean, it's pretty easy.

Anybody that looks at this, you can add up all these numbers. They do not come out to anywhere near, not even 95%. I don't think it comes out to even 95%. So where's the missing percentages of this? It's all gone. Right. So it's a big chunk that's missing. So we're missing data on this.

Either that or I'm missing something. Look at it yourself. I mean, you can just glance at it. I know the math. We're talking 89% roughly and then add up all those small numbers and they don't even come anywhere near 95 or 100, not even close to it. Right. And whatever those other numbers are, what are they? Is the real question too?

Well, yeah, that's the thing. I don't know what the others are. It could be all the rest of the elements. If they are, what elements are making this up? Yeah. You know, we've got copper, we've got iron, we've got nickel and silicon and titanium. There could be carbon in it if this was a high carbon steel. There could have been quite a bit of carbon sitting in there, but they should have noted that.

Of course, then they would have come back and said there was organics in there, which would have been weird. So I don't know. There's some stuff missing on this. And like I said, the missing stuff is in. intriguing. It doesn't have anything here that is just looking at it because I've looked at a lot of, being a geologist, I've sort of turned into a metalist, a well as well looking over this material and in the concentrations of stuff. There's, like I said, there's stuff missing on this, but there's nothing in this that looking at it the way it stands, there's nothing in it that's

unusual. So, you know, it should have small amounts of copper. It should, have, of course, it should have large amounts of iron. It's going to have some silicon in it. So it's unknown to me. I have no idea what they did on this. Okay. Mystery. It's a mystery.

Yep. And, you know, I take a good portion of responsibility for that. And I just wanted to kind of clear the air on that, because I think a lot of people were bummed when, like, we didn't find, you know, interstellar spacecraft. But, you know, these. These production companies have a budget. And I wish that, and this is what I wish upon any production company that I deal with,

I wish that I could have gone there and witnessed what was going on, because I would have caught the things that are going on. Same thing happened with the material that was sent to Trent University during another show, not one that we were on, but a different one that was through the Discovery Channel. they made mistakes up there and I would have caught those mistakes firsthand if I would have been there to see what was going on. So this is why somebody with some scientific knowledge needs to be there. Now, I will have to mention this. Bless their hearts.

Ancient aliens. All right. So they, on their relics of Roswell, I'm going to have to say that they did good work. good analytical work, except the really sad part about that is they left out some of the best parts. It would have extended the show and would have made some interesting things, but they did some good work on that. And I was there when they did a majority of it, and the rest of it was done off-site, but the off-site work was through a trusted friend, not mine,

but the gentleman that did the original analytical work, which was DataPlate, name of the company, they are a plating company. He's got some nice equipment for analyzing stuff because he does government contract work. His good friend did the work on it, and I've got the analysis back, but some of the cool things that they found,

they didn't talk about, there was barium found in some of the samples. So what is that? It's an element. It's similar to, the barium, you know, when people do like barium animals or whatever or swallow barium to have their intestines looked at for x-rays. Barium is very heavy. But barium is also a byproduct of nuclear testing. And the interesting thing is several of the samples had a relatively high

barium content. And the cool thing about that is even if it was not part of the alloy itself, it would indicate that the metals came from the time frame of the, it might have been a fallout that was left on the ground. So it came from somewhere near the same level or not level. In other words, it got contaminated from fallout from our first nuclear test, which would be significant because then that would help to date the material sometime. closer to the crash event. So that's what Spark is being.

And they found some other things too. They also found some weird silicon tubes and stuff under the SCM. And they even admitted that it had been through an explosion. I'm going, what the heck is this stuff? They didn't really talk too much about that part. They left it out, which was sad. They should have done more work on it. But they did good work.

What they had, they just didn't do enough. But they sent it all to me, every scrap of it. There you go. Hey, that's all you could ever ask for. God bless. I was talking to Giorgio, actually, right before we got on here, Frank. And he was still excited to hear that I was interviewing you. So he sends his best. And yeah, yeah, I got to watch a little bit of that before we got on here. And they did really good work. So I definitely give the credit for that. People out there in the UFO community have a tendency to sometimes bash ancient aliens, but you know what? They have, if they have the right person telling them the right direction to go in, they do good research on some stuff. Say what you want. I was impressed by what they did.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, okay. I guess, Frank, I do have some really good listener questions for you. Oh, I'd love these. Yeah. Sometimes they get me off guard. I'm waiting for that.

Oh, yeah. We're going to get to those. Two last things I want to ask you before we get to those, however. The first one being with all of the materials you've had tested, even the ones that we worked with, Atlas Lab and everything, what do you think is the most compelling or intriguing thing that has been uncovered so far with all of the metals? Does anything really stand out to you as highly anomalous?

I think you, you know, being a scientist, I cannot come out and say, I have extraterrestrial material in my hand. I can't do that because you need to have, in order for something to come out right, you need to have three independent laboratories that are good laboratories confirm the exact same information across the board. I've never been able to have that done. We get onesies, maybe two zies, but not the third one. And it's usually something goes wrong or things disappear or whatever. So, and it gets to be kind of scary on that. So here's what I've got. I have material that is odd.

It's anomalous. Does it have the magical properties that people, the Holy Grail, where you like, you know, hold it in your hand and let it unfold? No, it doesn't have that. do we have some things that are intriguing as far as metals that are sitting out in the desert? Yeah, we do. They are intriguing things. They are, some of them are different, different in that they're essentially unknown types of,

they're unknown aloys, but once again, they can be made on Earth. They're just different combinations of elements, and it might have been errors in the work that was done on it previously, but some of the work was really good. So it becomes, it's still a mystery in that I would like to say, yeah, these are extraterrestrial on origin. But mainstream science needs to look at this stuff and they need to look at it very carefully and say, hey, yeah, you know, you've got trash from out there or you've got ET material out there or you have pieces of stuff from airplanes that blew up on the sky or something.

People need to look at it, not just a geologist that works at a local school in Roswell. You need to have some good scientific evaluations of this material, and that has not been done yet. That's fair enough, man. I love that. That's, again, a responsible answer. Okay. So in terms of new stuff, new discoveries, within the last few weeks, you've been out to the site with a fellow colleague of ours, Chuck Zuckowski, actually. And tell us how that experience was. We found more stuff.

Is this correct? You know, yeah, no, this was a whole crazy trip. And what I mean crazy, it was, for one thing, it was dead quiet out there. There wasn't any noise, a very little breeze. I think the breeze was like maybe five or ten, five miles an hour at the most. And I know that because there was, Chuck was flying, trying to fly his drone. And I'll get to that story. and he did fly it eventually.

But started looking for things out there and had problems with what's called the ground balance on the metal detector. So the ground balance is that the ground makes a lot of noise. I call it static, and you can correct for that. So I had to manually correct for static more so than I've ever done before. Yeah, the ground, it probably had rained a few days before because once you get down about three or four inches, the ground was a little damp, not wet, it was just damp. And every time the ground has been damp out there, I've actually found material. However, looked around for a while and we found some stuff.

But we found two metal fragments, space probably two, three feet apart, buried once again a couple inches deep. This is a picture of one of them right here. but here is the ground balance thing was bugging me so digging this stuff up was pretty exciting but we directly behind where you see the truck up on the ridge over there there was an interview that lasted maybe 10 or 15 minutes and the camera guys basically they hadn't turned their cameras on this was new. The batteries were brand spanking new. They mentioned this afterwards,

but we went up to film, and during the interview part of this, not one, but if I remember correctly, two cameras failed simultaneously. The batteries drained, and they were gone. And as we were walking back, they said, we're going to have to reshoot this because we lost information.

We lost film. And I'm going, this is crazy and L.A. was with us and he's the gentleman standing there with the, with the light colored cap on. And he basically said that, no, we got, we got the material that we needed for the film. But it was just, that was strange. So we started in, we started walking towards where the buttons were found. And we walked and there was one camera rolling. They had audio one and everything. And we were walking out direction of where the buttons are.

In about two-thirds of the way to the buttons, the camera guy goes, we lost all audio. It's gone. And I'm going, what? They said, yeah, the audio is gone. And they lost audio until we got to where the buttons were located. And then the audio came back on. And he had marked the area where the audio loss was. And then we went back and there was no problem with it.

So Chuck had a tri-field meter, and a tri-field meter shows magnetic fields. It shows electromagnetism. It shows all kinds of things. But it shows three. It shows magnetism. It shows electrostatics. And it shows one other thing. It's just called a tri-field meter.

The ghost hunters use it a lot. It's a nice meter. And he says, hey, Frank, take this and just kind of walk around and see what you find. So I was walking around. And that thing was doing bizarre stuff. It would be all quiet and then it would make a jump, a real jump over to, it's got a scale from one to 100, but it would make a jump to 10 and then like instantly, almost within the blink of it. And then it would go back down. And then it would creep up to maybe like onesies or twosies and it would stay there full of it.

And then we'd go back down. And while I'm doing this, Chuck is trying to get his drone to fly and he says, I can't get the drone to start. So I'm going, what? He says, no, the drone will not start. I can't get it to fly. Eventually, it did fly. So between the tri-field meter stuff and the ground balancing and the missing, the whole, I've never had experience that out there, it was bizarre, to say the least. And I'm an open-minded scientist.

I'm going, you know what, this is to have all this electronic stuff going on out here is strange. I've never had it happen before, although I've had the ground balance issues out there before. So I don't know. Maybe it was all the rains that caused some disturbances or maybe there was something going on. It was odd. It even felt odd, which was kind of interesting for me because my son's been out there with me before. He won't go out there anymore because he said that it creeps him out because he gets odd feelings. Well, when I was out there this time, I've got odd feelings like I haven't had before.

So I'm going, all right, this is strange. I don't know why I was doing that. Maybe it was alien ghosts or something. I have no idea. But it was a very strange day. It was a fun day, professional film crew that's out there. I can't wait to see this. It's a little documentary that's going to come out here probably in August.

And I can't wait to see. see it because it was it was all well it was done very very well and they they they got the discovery of the metal on film which is only the second time that that's ever happened so it's all very very well documented in even some talk about the strangeness that was going on out there and it was it was all shot live so I'm going this is this is pretty wild so I'm hope I'm not disclosing any too much of anything on this but it was an amazing trip that was out there, and we found two pieces of metal. Now, as far as analytical work, I'm trying to get in touch with some labs right now.

They have not responded to me, which is kind of interesting because a lot of times when I make requests, they don't respond, and I have to send out multiple, sometimes even have to call up. Sometimes they won't respond. But usually universities are good, so I'm trying to contact universities to have the work done, because they do some of the best. And if worse comes to worse, I will contact the folks that did some work with ancient aliens and I'll say, hey, how about analyzing this for me?

And now I'm sure they'll be glad to do it, and they won't charge me much. But I wanted to get a university to look at it. That's where it stands. Nothing earth-shattering yet, although this is the piece that you see here is one of the two pieces that were found. I found them both.

And it looks identical to this one's really dirty. I hasn't been cleaned up. That's what it looks like when it comes out of the ground. It was buried two, three inches deep. Lots of ground balancing static all in the area, like I said. But it was a fun day. And I didn't expect to find anything at all. So this was kind of a neat little discovery out there.

More things to be found. Exactly. More things to be found and analyzed. That's all we can really ask for at this point. Awesome, man. Well, hey, let's move to these listener questions. I promised you we wouldn't be here for four hours like coast to coast a.m. as much as I admire their work over there. But I do want to get you out of here. Four hours is good. I know we could talk for four hours on or off camera. Let's start with this listener question from Ryan on Facebook. And he asks, have any of the pieces you found been looked at by Gary Nolan? And if so, what did he make of them? Have you ever worked with Dr. Gary Nolan?

No, I have not worked with Nolan. And as far as I know, he has not looked at this material at all. I don't even know. I don't even recognize the name. If I did, maybe it's my COVID brain cells that are short-circuited or something. but I don't remember the name at all. Okay, that's fair. I know he worked on some materials with Jacques Valet and possibly to the Starz Academy when they were still.

Oh, in which case, no, but I can tell you that Howl put off looked at some of this material early on. Basically, the answers that I got back for them were kind of sketchy and inconclusive, so I didn't trust the results that I got back. It wasn't to the start. That was Hal put-off that did the work at his Earth Tech lab. Didn't like the analytical work that was done. They had an error. Hard to explain. I don't think they did it right.

But later on, when I got the isotopes back, Howl put-off contacted me and said, hey, if you want to get some more work done, I'll pay for it. I never followed up. I hate to say this, didn't trust him at the time. Interesting. God's honest truth.

So that's where that stands. That's fair. That's fair. Okay. Eric on Twitter asks, why was there remaining evidence? Oh, this is a good question. Eric says, why was there remaining evidence to begin with? We kind of covered that in terms of why there will still be stuff out there.

You know, it's interesting thing. All right. So the story behind Roswell and the recovery, many, many days, military, basically walking side by side. Some of them, according to the stories, on their hands and knees, just crawling, criss-crossing this around multiple times, picking up every single thing that they could possibly find, putting it in a bag. You know, if it doesn't move, put it in a bag. I think that's, Don Schmidt mentions that a lot in his thing. So, yeah, they picked up, they picked up everything that was laying on the surface.

they could see. Now, the issue at hand comes with a typical crash site is that there are, there's probably tens of thousands of tiny little pieces that, like I said, get washed into the burrow holes, get carried away, blown in the wind or whatever, and recycled. Now, it was raining out there and it was storming at the time that this took place. And so I suspect that a lot of things, a lot of the smaller stuff was washed away. And the only way the government could have gotten it all is that they would have taken, gone in here and scooped up a quarter of a mile of land

and maybe a foot deep and carted it all off. That I didn't see. So they did the best they could with what they had and they could not have gotten all of the little pieces. There are little pieces left out there. Still need some work done on it. That's fair. All right. Last listener question here, Frank. UFO detective on Twitter asks,

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com. It's a good question. These days, you don't keep, if you keep stuff like that secret, it's going to, you're liable to lose it. the absolute best thing to do is to contact the media instantaneously, get press releases, get the newspaper, get the media, get everybody, get YouTube, get you, get all of the UFO people in the world, jumping on the bad wagon and shove it all out on the media as fast as possible, get the information out there as quick as you can't.

You got to be one step above anybody that might want to take the material. So, yeah, if I had, let's say I was to find a piece of that wonderful material that folds up and then unfolds in your hand, that would be an instantaneous in the media as fast as absolutely possible. And that's the way to deal with this. If you beat around the bush, things are liable to get confiscated. Maybe. Maybe not. But basically, you need to open your big mouth and run with it on that case. That's exactly what you need to do. It's my honest opinion.

I love it. I love it, man. Well, that kind of brings us to literally today, the last few days. We had this explosive story come out in the media for. through the debrief attack news website and also through News Nation and the investigative journalist Ross Colthard. And they sort of simultaneously came out with the story of this gentleman, David Rush, who is now being coined a military whistleblower who was given information about UFO crash retrieval programs that have been going on for even earlier than 1947. So before I get to the Roswell question of that,

what did you make of this when this information first came forward, Frank? What was your sort of knee-jerk reaction? And where do you stand right now on that entire story? It's crazy if any of this is actually true. You know what? The very first time I saw that and I'm going, yeah, I like that. I like the knee-jerk thing because, you know, I have a tendency to jump the gun on a lot of things. I said, oh, great. Here's another one of these things where there's no proof, no pictures,

no video, no nothing whatsoever. And I even mentioned that on a couple of Facebook posts. And then I thought about this for a little while and I'm going, you know what? I said, this guy's got a lot of guts. Not only does he have guts, but we need more people like him to come forward and basically tell the public what's going on because the more people like the whistleblowers that come out that have verifiable credentials that have seen this stuff that know about what the government is doing. We need more of those people to come forward and to talk about this without people coming back and saying, oh yeah, show me a piece of it. And that was my very first reaction. But when I got to thinking about what this gentleman had gone through. I'm going, okay, you know what, this is,

this is pretty amazing, pretty startling stuff, and we need more like him out there to come forward. On that note, speaking of Roswell, real quick, I'll mention this. You know, Ryan, a lot of people back, and people still do this today, when they go on vacations, when they find little trinkets, they stick them in their jewelry box. They stash it away, little bits of pieces. I mean, it used to be people, oh, I have a little piece of a mummy from Egypt, or I have some sand from whatever. You know what? I'm going to take a wild guess that there's some people out there

that could very well have some fragments of the Roswell crash that are sitting in their jewelry box that they've never disclosed for fear that they would get shot or killed or drug out into the desert or something like that. And they probably show it to family members and things like that. that. I'd love it if those people would come forward with this stuff and say, hey, you know what, this is what sits in my jewelry box. I would love that. That would just delight me to know it. Absolutely. You know, and there have been those rumors that Jesse Morsell had some stuff stashed away in his house. I know as if that's true or if we'll ever see it. But talk about like, you know, OG original whistleblowers. That was definitely one of them for sure. But, I know. Yeah. So these, you know, the whistleblowers, we just, we need, we need to have more like them. And they, they need to come forward. They need to do this. You know, I, I don't have any books out there. And, you know, a lot of people don't know who I am, except within the UFO community. People know why not, because I do good research. At least I think I do good research on this. No books. I have lots of little documentaries out there in such, which I dearly enjoy doing and things like this. and I give talks and stuff like that,

but you know, it's the people that, the people that are going to make a difference are like the whistleblower that came forward. And there's been a couple of those that are out there. And they need to speak up. And they need to do that because, you know, the people of the world need to know is think of,

think of the technology. You know, we always like to go on the premise of national security. but think of the energy sector. Think of what it would do to society. Yeah, you know, they're going to say, yeah, could disrupt society, but I don't think so. I think it would propel us into the timeframes of like Star Trek or something like that.

Maybe I'm a dreamer or whatever. But, you know, it all started in that, in the Star Trek movie First Contact, where the Vulcans landed. And that's what started our whole exploration of space was that deep space because, you know, hey, they saw our signature from our first warp drive. So, and that's what, and then they shared all their technology with us because they knew that we were ready for it. I think we're ready for a lot of things. And I think we need to do that.

If we could just take enough time to stop fighting with each other on the planet, pay attention to some stuff that's going on out there. I think it would delight the world. I think it would make it a much better place than it is right now. Absolutely. I could not agree with me more on that, man. Well, in terms of this story and Roswell, so this David Grush, he claims that at least 12 UFO crashes and retrievals

that he's aware of of intact or partially intact craft have occurred. And he was asked by Ross Colthart, when asked if one of those was Roswell, This was the exchange. Colthart said, what can you tell me about the Roswell craft? Grush said, unfortunately, those details were not approved for me to talk about right now. Colthart said, it seems ridiculous to me how the U.S. Air Force changed its story. Grush said, yeah, and they added additional elements over time and tried to conflate additional programs to explain some of these events. So what do you make of these, Frank? A lot of people want to know, oh gosh, why can he talk about it?

about Rosswell? Well, he doesn't know. And this is like speculation on my part. He does know that the government will expand things and hide things. He knows that. And he mentioned that. He was very careful about his wording on that. So he may not know, but he knows that there was stuff that was covered up. And he knows that. And that is, that's the exciting part about the information that he gave. that he could give out that he knew about. I think it was honest about what he said. He basically made it known. They says, yeah, you know, the government hides things and the government tries to twist the truth around, and that's what they do, call it to protect national security. He may not have mentioned that specifically,

but that's what they do that for. And he was just laying out the facts that the Roswell information has been distorted and contorted over the years, and it was essentially manufactured by the government, not the crash itself, but the stories that come out and what they found, which was they found stuff that they covered up as fast as they could. That's my take on it.

Yep. I can't agree more. Well, that kind of flows right into kind of my last two-pronged question for a, Frank. The first being, what do you personally, as Frank Kimbler believe crashed in Roswell in 1947. And on top of that, do you think we will ever truly know, the public will ever truly know what that was? Okay, so what crashed in Roswell, this is, it was something of unknown origin.

We didn't know where it came from. So you know what? Let's take a look. I'm very open-minded. It could have been extraterrestrial, could have been interdimensional, Null, which is always an interesting story on that. So something crashed out there, something unusual in the government covered up. That's my thoughts on this.

And I have no other, I don't think anyone can convince me otherwise that it was not something unusual that crashed out here. E.T. Interdimensional. Maybe it was from our future. Who knows? Mystery to me. Something got our people riled up, our government people riled up. And that's the story behind that. And then the, well, we ever uncover, I think we will.

I think if we have sufficient evidence right now just in testimonies alone that would actually hold up in a court of law about people that have said, hey, you know, something crashed out there. The government did this. The government did that. So that would actually hold up. The testimony would hold up. And I think it would hold up very strong. And I think that Roswell, the future of it is, it'll come out. You know, I think everybody's dead now that had something to do with the original crash.

It was the vast majority. So now we're getting secondhand and third hand accounts of what happened that's passed down from generation to generation. But now, now I think is the time for that information to be let out. I'd like to see it all let out. I really would. I think the population of the world is ready for it. And I think I think Roswell is one of those things that if it's not Roswell, it could be other ones that are out there that we know about. And so, yeah, crash retrievals, crash recovery. I think that we should disclose the information. And then people have been asking for that for a long time. It's coming. It's. seems to be fed to us a little bit at a time. I mean, with the with the tic-tacks and, and those cool videos that are out there that those were. When I first saw those, I'm going, okay, this one's going to be a little bit, a little bit hard to just blow off. Okay, you just can't do that. We've got stuff that, that basically stumps our pilots and stumps our military. We

don't know what the heck it is. And yeah, that's, that's the bona fide truth on that. So, proof is in the pudding. I love proof like that. Yep. Yep. It seems like we're entering a new phase, man, of acknowledgement that there are UFO crash retrieval programs and that hopefully we'll find the truth behind some of these. And I think you're right. I think the public is ready and can handle the truth of what these things are. We've been through a lot in the world, especially in the past few years. I think we can handle anything that could possibly benefit humanity and give us. That's a greater understanding of kind of where we lay in this cosmic agenda, I guess. So I look forward just as you do to hopefully more these whistleblowers coming forward, feeling empowered to do that and to show that, you know, the truth will out someday, somehow. And maybe it'll be within your lifetime in my lifetime. Oh, I would love.

Absolutely love to see it. Would love to see it in my lifetime just to say, ah, knew it. Okay, that's cool. Exactly, man. Hey, let's leave on that hopeful note. The future looks bright. I can't wait to see what comes of the new metals that you guys found out there. Hopefully we'll get those tests and analysis done.

I just want to say, you know, no matter what happened with the results of the tests we had done, working with you was one of the greatest pleasures of my life. You gave us a tour of the International UFO Museum. I got to see where you work. You brought me to the UFO. The mecca of UFO sites. It was just an incredible few days that will literally stay with me until my dying day. So no matter what was found out there, what it is, what it isn't.

It enriched my life more than I could possibly ever convey on a stupid television show. So I do want to thank you for giving me that opportunity. and trusting me with that. And yeah, yeah, I want to thank you for coming on somewhere in the skies today. So, yeah, if you have any last words, please. My pleasure. I enjoy, I enjoyed working with you, Brian. I really have.

And it was, I freely share whatever I know. Anybody that asks, I give it to them. Same to you, same to everybody else. So Godspeed, that's all I can say on that one. So thank you very much. your kind words. Thanks, Frank. And for any of our listeners or viewers who might want to reach out to you,

is that something you're willing to give any contact information for? Oh, no, that's fine. You know what? I'm open to that if they just don't like blow me out of the water. They can go through Facebook Messenger. That's fine. That's always kind of a safe way to go. Or we can, sometimes they're a little reluctant to give out emails.

But people can find my email. easy enough if they want to. So, you know, I'm out on Facebook. You can, you can message me and it'll come through and I'll see it and I'll say that's probably the safer way to go. Otherwise, who knows what kinds of things that'll come in. I mean, it's easy to get emails. Some people can, since they know I work at the New Mexico Military Institute, I shouldn't say, I should just give it out because they can contact me there as well. But my information is out there. But, you know, go through, go through messenger and Facebook. I mean, you've done that. Everybody's done. And it works.

And it's kind of a safe way to go without divulging everything. And I would say, oh, this looks like a pretty flaky person. I can just kind of know. Absolutely. And guys, if you want to reach out to me, I'd always be willing to relay something to Frank if you need. Oh, absolutely. As well, if you have any leads on crash debris or people he can speak to or even laboratories that would be willing to work with him, reach out to me.

I'll reach out to Frank. Let's work together on all of this. That's what I always tell people. Absolutely. Yeah. It's the way to go. All right, my friend. I'm going to say goodnight.

Thank you so much for your time tonight. And thank you for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies. My pleasure. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network. Greetings everyone. Ryan Sprague, your host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast is

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Or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. And keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Guys, we are here right now with, one of the gentlemen who found the metal alloys out in the Roswell Desert at the famed crash site. We have with us once again returning guest, Chuck Sikowsky. Chuck, welcome back to somewhere in the skies.

Hi, thank you for having me back. This is pretty exciting, right? Yeah. It's something that I've been doing for years and years and years. One of the first investigations I was doing was on Roswell, gosh, 35 years ago. And I was one of the lucky people that actually met and became friends with Glenn Dennis, who was the mortician and Walter Hott.

And I used to go by the museum so many times. I lived in California. So every time I took the family on vacation, it was always routed around Roswell. I'd go say hi to the guys. And they got to the point where they were comfortable seeing me. They knew who I was. And so they started feeding me more and more information.

And it was Glenn Dennis who actually gave me the GPS coordinates to the debris site. So it was like one of the guys from 1947, rather than getting it from another investigator, I got it right from, you know, the proverbial horse's mouth. And then, you know, a lot of the stuff that, you know, when I interviewed them that I learned is pretty cool stuff. And some of it was published and some of it wasn't. But it's cool because, you know, you would talk to me as a friend, you know, rather than an investigator. So we got down to the meat of things a few times. A lot of fun.

Yeah, I know. And of course, Roswell is that case. You know, so many UFO researchers sort of hang their hat on it. Whereas more skeptical people will say, what's their left to discover about the oldest UFO case out there? And then lo and behold, you, Frank Kimber, who we'll get to as well, have developments in the story. Not only developments, I would say more evidence than anyone has ever been able to actually find that has anything to do with the Roswell incident. So I guess let's kind of get to the meat of it. What brought you out to the crash site with the geologist, Frank Kimber, who I've also had the

pleasure of going out there and looking for stuff. I never found anything. So I'm extremely envious of the both of you. But yeah, can you sort of run us through the few times you have been out there with Frank and kind of walk us through what some of those discoveries might have been if you don't mind? Well, it was interesting because I think the very first time I was out of the debris. I was around 2000. And I had a metal detector out there. and I was, you know, looking for, you know, anything. And then 2002, I did a TV show with the Sci-Fi Channel, and we did an archaeology dig out there.

And after they were done shooting the TV show, I convinced the archaeologist to let me and my sister come out one day later after the production crew left and do our own dig. I didn't like what they were doing. They were digging into the drastic period. I only wanted to dig back to 1947. So we did strip digs. And in 2002, my sister and I actually found a piece of debris.

And then I had it analyzed here in Colorado on an SCM scanning electron and microscope. And it was an aluminum alloy. We did a press release a year later. And lo and behold, you know, we did a press release on it. And we were asking for a lab to pick it up. So you do more analysis on it, and lo and behold, it was Bass, Bigelow Aerospace. Now, at the time back then, I didn't realize that Bigelow was actually working for the Pentagon. We learned that back in 2017, years later, that he was under contract with the Pentagon looking for UFO materials and investigating UFO sites.

So it was kind of exciting later to find out that when he was analyzing the piece that we found in 2002, it was probably funded by the Pentagon. on. So they know a little more about me than I kind of want them to know about me. What happened to those pieces, Chuck? Were they still in possession of them? Yeah. What happened was, was the Maxwell Museum in New Mexico's had archived it. And it took me about three months to find it. And then I had to write a proposal up to the board of directors to be able to release it. So Bigelow Aerospace would be able to analyze it. And But I threw a caveat in there. I said, okay, we're not going to give them the whole piece.

We're going to cut a piece off and send them a piece of it because, you know, this stuff, you never know. So Dr. Bill Doman was able to cut a piece and we sent that piece to Bigelow. Within one week, I got an email back saying that it was an unknown polymer. I swear, okay, this is what the email said. It's posted on my website to go way, way back and look and search, you know, Roswell, debris. And I actually have a clip of it.

But it said some, you know, it said that it's like really nothing, but it's still an unknown polymer based on the catalog polymers that we have in the lab. And right there was a red flag for me stating that, okay, it's not common.

Because if it was a common polymer, then, you know, obviously we would have been able to identify it. And then I said, so what's next? And they said, isotope analysis.

And I said, oh my gosh. I said, okay, I stopped analysis. Let's see if this thing's even from this planet. And that was the last I heard of Bigelow. And I tried numerous times to get a hold of them. And it was about a year later, I finally got an email back saying, oh, it was nothing.

We sent the piece back. Well, I can't guarantee what they sent back to, you know, the museum was the actual piece. But it didn't matter me because, you know, I know that we have an actual piece still, you know, still archives there. Smart. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And all that stuff. you know, for anybody wants to know, Ben Mesrick had wrote a book called The 37th Parallel, and it's all in that book. You can find it now on Amazon Use Copies for $2, $3. But it kind of talks all about that. And at the very end of the book, I had speculated that, you know, Bigel was a big part of this. And at the very end of the book, there's a lot of stuff that's retracted, you know, black lines going through here and there.

In other words, I was insinuating that Bigelow was part. Now, you got to understand this was still before it came out in 2017 that he was part of it. You know, he's a billionaire. I'm a hundredaire. I have a couple hundred dollars. And, you know, there's no way I can compete with, you know, all the money he's got in his attorneys. So, you know, it was kind of like on a DL, kind of poking fun, but not actually saying that I think he was involved in it. So that kind of started back in 2000.

too. Now since then, I've done a couple of other archaeology digs there, but the issue is, is, you know, when we're doing digs, we have these, these big screens that are like four by four screens on two by fours. As you dig, you kind of sit through the dirt, and we're looking for pieces of metal. Well, the stuff that we're finding now is really, really tiny and would have slipped through the pieces of metal. We would have missed it. And because you're doing this out in the middle of the desert, and it's windy, and it's, and it's, and it's, you're doing. sunny, it's 100, you know, 100, 105 sometimes if it's during the summertime. So recently, beginning of June, you know, went out to the site.

And the whole purpose for that was for me to get some drone footage and do a little bit of digging, or not digging, just, I've been digging as in digging around, but not actual archaeology digging, just using a metal detector to see if we'd find anything. And that material I was going to use for the Roswell Festival that I was going to like, I'm lecturing or a lecture to add in July. And so I had my metal detector, and then Frank had his metal detector, and we're just kind of like sweeping around out there. And Frank started getting hits.

My metal detector, I wasn't. And so I kind of dropped that and started watching Frank. Now, I have to tell you this. This is really exciting stuff. Okay, so I'm going to go ahead. Well, I was out there with a person. I took another person out there that was shooting a little documentary for, you know, his website. And I had asked Frank if he wanted to go out to the website or I'm sorry, to the debris site, you know, with me.

And, of course, he said, you know, I was going to ask you if I could go. So he was pretty excited. And I've been dealing with Frank for a few years. looking at some of the stuff that he had found and trying to figure out where it came from, especially the buttons and all kinds of cool stuff. So we're out there and see if I can remember exactly what was going on. Okay, so we're out there with a, I'll just mention his name because he's a cool guy, L.A. Marzula.

So I was out there with L.A. Marzula, and he had his cameraman, he had his audio guy, and he was interviewing Frank there, and I'm kind of like, you know, watching the whole interview. And then the cameraman says, hey, something happened. I didn't catch the last 30 seconds of this, you know, of this interview. I don't know what's going on the camera. Let me go figure it out. And at that time, the audio guy goes, yeah, you know what? My battery died.

And it was charged earlier. And so it says, I'm going to go back to my truck because I took them all out there in my truck. And I looked over at Frank. And Frank looks at me going, okay, something's going on out here. Because as you're investigating, there's been a lot of times when we've been. in an active places where there's a high electrical magnetic field and your batteries go out and, you know, there's all kinds of interesting things mucks with your, you know, your technology. So he looked at me and says, hey, Chuck, did you bring your EMF meter?

And I said, yeah, it's in my kit. So we brought it out and Frank was walking with his, with the EMF meter. And I'm going, okay, well, I'm not picking up any. Oh, actually at that time, we weren't metal detecting. And so I said, I'm going to get my drone set up so I can film him. you know, doing EMF sweep. So I'm going to use that, you know, in my conference, my lecture in July. And he comes back and goes, I'm going to get my mental detector.

I go, what's up? Because while as I'm walking, it's like waves. So as I walked, there was a wave of EMF, and it would spike a little bit. And then you'd walk and spike again. So he goes, I'm going to grab my melody detector and check this area. I said, great. So I grabbed my drone, and I put my drone. And my drone's in a kit.

So I'm putting the props on and getting it ready. And I'm right there where Frank is, metal detecting, because I don't want to miss anything. If I hear a tone on this mental detector, you know, I want to be there to see it. But when I got my drone set up and it powered up, it wouldn't lift off. It said battery air, battery air. I'm going, there's nothing wrong. I just charged this battery air. And then, and then so I pushed the battery back in, took it out, back in, you know, reset it.

Reset my app. And then it said, take off air. I'm like, okay, what's going on? And I was getting frustrated because I thought it was something I was doing wrong. So I just took the drone back to where my truck was. And I said, well, I'm going to try it one more time. And then everything worked fine. And it dawned on me, oh, my gosh, that was the high EMF area that we had issues with a camera and the audio guy.

And now the drone went off. So I got the drone up and I was shooting some shots. and then at that time Frank was using his metal detector was getting hits. After I finished my drone shooting, I grabbed my metal detector and I went out there too, and I wasn't getting anything. But he was picking up hits. So he found a couple of pieces of material.

And that kind of started this whole thing of analyzing. He found one piece. And then he says, the next piece I'm going to give to you. And, you know, I'll test it here. New Mexico, you can test you. years in Colorado, and we'll do two tests, two separate labs, two separate states, and see if we get the same results. And that's what you kind of want to do, because if you use one lab and their instruments are not calibrated properly, or they have older software, or whatever, you know,

you never know if you're going to get, you know, if the results you're getting are going to be the results that anybody was getting, right? So this was the best way of doing it. And that's when we came up with a little bit of malady. Now, we went back again towards the end of June right before the, you know, the Roswell Festival. And this time, I was a little smarter. So the metal detector that I had originally was designed to look for coins and stuff like that. A frights metal detector is a fisher, and it was designed to look for gold. And so the frequencies are different.

when you're looking for specific metals. He was getting hits. I wasn't getting anything. So within the time frame of the beginning of June to the end of June, I got on eBay and I found a new Fisher Gold Bug Pro metal detector that's designed

just to look for gold nuggets. We went back out there end of June and within 20 minutes I got a hit with this new metal detector. So now it does me now that you need a gold hunting metal detector. Yeah. So look for this anonymous

this, you know, material. Now, you have to understand that in the past 20 years, we've been out there with metal detectors and got nothing. And then at one point, even, I think, Move on it had shot a show or something out there, and they had a slew of people out there with metal detectors. But as it turns out, I think, that they were using the wrong detectors,

because depending on the detector, you know, depends on what you're looking for, the frequencies are a little bit different, adjusting the ground, the whole bit so different. But it seems like the fisher, you know, a gold hunting metal detector seems to also be a Roswell hunting metal detector, and it worked really, really well. So when we were out there at the end of June,

we found probably a good, see, 4, 8, 9, about 10 pieces. Now, what's interesting about these pieces is it's some we found up on the ground, closer to the surface and some was six or so inches in the ground. Some of it was shiny. Some of it had some patina on it. And depending on which ones we have analyzed, the ones that had some patina, some dark coloring in it,

were thrown into like a 6,000 series. Frank can explain this more because he's a geologist and he's who I look to really explain. the science behind it. You know, my background is microchip design. So I know that aluminum alloys is using microchip and it's, you know,

it's very conducive of electricity. So we use it all the time in designing microchips. It's one of the higher metals that has, that we use as power buses in microchip design. It's a little higher in resistance,

but it's a great conductive of electricity. So current flows really easy through that. So this is stuff that technology now uses in Microtube design because you know, it's like I said, you can pump current through it.

So it's interesting though. So we have two different types of metals in this area. It's kind of confusing why we have it, but the 6000th century when we tested it not only on the x-ray spectrometer or the SCM, the scatim, the scanning electron microscope, we're getting these results that it's falling into like an unknown

polymer. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's falling into an unknown aluminum alloy. Now, what I mean by unknown aluminum alloy, the polymer was the first one in 2002. These were falling into an unknown aluminum alloy. Now, it's not unknown to the point where it couldn't be created here. it's unknown to the fact that it hasn't been cataloged as a commercial alloy.

So you go through the thousands of alloys that have been cataloged that people are, you know, that the industry is using. And this one falls into a 6,000 series, but it hasn't been cataloged. And that's another red flag. Well, why? I'm sorry I get out excited about this because I'm kind of going through it all my head. Yeah, I know. I mean, just last week, you know, I had the SCM done over here in Denver and a couple of days before that. Frank had his done over and Albuquerque and all of a sudden we're getting the same results.

Oh, my God. This is ridiculous. You know, this is, we're getting this aluminum alloy that is not, you know, registered or cataloged in any of the alloys that, you know, we have right now. So what does that mean? Okay. Could it be an alloy that was with some top secret project at one point that never, you know, or never or still isn't going to be cataloged, you know, for commercial use or is it something else? You know, it's really hard to say what's going on?

And then what about the other alloys we're getting out there? The stuff that's very similar to aluminum cans, we're getting that too. But when I took the first piece to the lab out here in Denver that we had found, you know, at the beginning of June, I took it to Colorado metallurgical company. And their expertise is aluminum alloys. And this guy, the general manager there, Sean, is looking at this under microscope. And he said, I can tell you something right now that if I'm looking at a piece of an alloy for customer of mine, who's using it for whatever project, I would tell him this was a fail.

I said, well, what do you mean by a fail? He says, whatever this was used in, experienced extreme trauma. He said, explosive in nature. That's what he said. And he says, when you get right down to, you know, 500 microns or so, you're, this thing, it experienced something explosive that just destroyed it into such tiny little pieces.

And I haven't seen that before. But he saw, he said, whatever it is, he was pretty excited. Whatever this metal was used for, exploded. Like a crash, right? Like an impact. There you go. And so that's another one of these aha moments where, okay, now we're finding evidence. Now, Frank and I can't say that this is extraterrestrial.

We can't say that because, you know, These are baby steps. This is, you know, this is the beginning of going through all the steps of trying to identify this material. So far, we have a couple different materials. And this is really good, though, because we have material that we kind of can identify. And then we have some material that we can't really identify. So now we can use those two materials as comparison, you know, in all our, you know, lab analysis to, okay, try to figure out what the anomalous metal is.

Because when you talk to people, I go, well, there could be a little of a can. Well, guess what? We've kind of found that or something similar to that. But then now we found something completely different. So we can compare the two. So you can't say this is an aluminum can because we can say this resembles it, but this doesn't. So we can compare the two. So that kind of throws the skeptics out the door at that point when they're saying it's something

that's common. We found some common stuff. And we found even more common stuff out there. Actually, pieces of can and some other things. Let me say I can find this real quick. Yeah. And even when you find, you know, little pieces like this, which are just pieces of rusted can, you know, can tops and stuff. So we can find stuff out there that we can absolutely identify.

But it's the pieces that we can. we can identify that's making this really, really excited. And so what's next? Well, you know, obviously more testing. You know, we want to, you know, eventually you jump into isotope analysis to see if it's from this planet. The issue with that, though, is it's based on technology of how the piece was put together. Now, pretty much if you look at the periodic table, everything on the periodic table,

is what we've picked up in space so far. There's some little microscopic type balls that, you know, that they found recently in the ocean, that who, you know, the scientists who found is saying could point to extraterrestrial. We may know more about that in a couple of weeks. So we're still learning there could be materials and, you know, coming from meteorites or something, you know, from outer space that may not fall into our periodic table. But so far everything on a P.E.R.R.T.L.T.L. is from space. So the metals themselves are, could be common to other planets. But it's how it's put together technology-wise and some other things that would make it unique of whether or not we would have the technology to do that here. But, you know, if isotope analysis comes back and says, this is unidentifiable, then we've nailed it. Then we have. something completely unusual anomalous and really exciting.

So like I said, it seems like every step we take, we're getting closer and closer to, you know, hopefully, you know, finding something that's completely unknown, you know, material-wise, not material-wise, but, you know, how it was technology, how it was put together. And but still at that point, we can't say. as extraterrestrial because it could still be something that could be, you know, some top secret, you know, project, something, you know, because I work in a microchip industry. So I've been involved in a few military programs where I've signed non-disclosures and, you know, now it's just a technology, you know, that I worked on and not the actual material.

so I really don't know too much about the materials used in it. But if you're looking for something, you're looking for an answer of what this stuff is, and you're pointing to like current technology, you can't do that because we found it under six inches of dirt, which means it was a few decades ago. I was just going to ask that, Chuck. You know, what is a 6,000? series alloy, like you mentioned, that could be part of some, let's say, aerospace manufacturer.

What is it doing under the ground if that was the surface level like three, four decades ago? That makes no sense. And you're absolutely right. And so it's really easy for people to say, well, we can do that now. You know, fine, but explain why it was under. inches of dirt at the middle of the New Mexico desert, and we found it there. Okay. Now, the aluminum canned stuff that's very similar in 300s, that wasn't registered until

the 60s. Okay. So it's not something very recent either, and we found that. Now, for all your viewers out there, if you know who Lieutenant Colonel Philip Corso is, you know, the day after Roswell book, he wrote that book before he passed away. He said, I can't remember, I hope I get this right. I think he was working for General Trudeau on reverse engineering Rosal Debris. Now, you have to understand, this is all stuff.

You know, as investigators read, I've actually read some of the transcripts from Philip Corso when he was interviewed by Peola Harris. And he seems very, very credible. as a military individual, he was very, very credible, and the Army never really discredited him after the book came up. But here he says, we got this material from Roswell, and I got it, and I'm working for the foreign technology department and reverse engineering, and we're going to take this material, and we're going to push it into industries here in the U.S.

that have government contracts, and let's see if we can reverse engineers and use it as, you know, in our technology. And that's what they do. And companies do it too. Other companies, they'll take a competitor company piece of technology, and they'll reverse engineer trying to figure out why these guys are their products working in this. There is it. Nothing new.

And we've been doing it for years and years. So if he's right and some of this metal was found in 47 and was folded into our industry, then it kind of makes sense that if we're finding some of the, 3,000 series, that could be closer to a limb can, but it wasn't registered until 60s, mid or mid-60s, I think it was. I think Frank was saying, and you can ask Frank about that, then that would make sense. But still, why are we finding it there? And why is it kind of still resembling, you know, the pieces of material that experience,

you know, experienced trauma, a very explosive in nature, but it's confusing. And then there's also the thought that maybe it was seated to throw the aggregators off. I mean, so you kind of have to think about all different types of possibilities why we're finding this. You know, one thought is whatever, whatever exploded, whatever crashed there, had two different types or multiple types of alloys, which makes sense, you know, associated with it. And we're finding some pieces now. Why are we finding now? Because of metal detectors, the technology. now is way better than it was back in 2000, way better than it was in 1947.

And the metal detectors back then were used to look for mines, big pieces of metal, and that little tiny fragments, right? And the Fisher Goldberg Pro that I bought has only been out for a couple of years. And one of the specifications was that they altered the frequency a little bit to find gold. So the metal detectors are getting better and better and better. technology is getting better and better and now we're hitting the jackpot when we go back to the brief back so when people say well why did you find it then technology's better in it yeah and it'll be better in five years and you know who knows we're going to find in five years but right now with current technology we're finding stuff now it's not easy okay so frank and out there frank the last time frank and i were out there we're both using fisher metal detectors and we're after a good four or five hours. So it takes a bit, you know, to look for this.

And it's painstaking and, you know, swinging back and forth real slow. And you get hits and you got to dig into the hard ground and sip through it with your fingers because the pieces are so small. It's easy, very easy to miss this stuff. So you really got to be patient, which is tough for me because I'm not that patient. and, you know, patience. They go, yeah, how long does that take? Yeah. To learn patience.

Exactly. I will wait as long as I have to, to find an interstellar piece of a spacecraft, Chuck. I'll tell you that much. Two last questions for you, actually. I guess the, I want to go back to that idea of seating for just a moment. So that would technically mean someone actually planted like pieces there

for what purpose or motivation do you feel? Let's say it was I'll just throw it out there. Let's say it was a flying soft or UFO. I mean it was extraterrestrial technology. And of course you know

as investigators I've been doing this long enough that a lot of my stuff is being monitored a lot of stuff that goes public is being monitored and they're watching this and they're going okay if these guys actually find pieces out there that point back to the 1947 crash, maybe we should kind of throw them off.

And how they can throw us off as if, as if, you know, they, whoever they is, you know, create these, you know, little pieces of known alloys or something and throw that out there. Under the thought that we find those and say, hey, it's extraterrestrial. And they go, no, it's not.

because it's this, you know, but they don't know me and Frank, because me and Frank, or Frank and I, we don't do that. All we say is, look, you know, we're going to analyze this stuff. We don't, we're not very quick to judge. We don't, you know, we just don't assume it's all, you know, because we're both analytical thinking. So everything step by step by step to step to see what this stuff is, hey, look, some of it is an anomalous,

alloy in the 6,000 series. Some of it is very similar to the 3,000 series. Now we can compare the two and that kind of messes up if it was seated that we're not that ignorant that or stupid that we would just

look up in the sky and say, that's a UFO when it's really you know, Mars or Jupiter or something, you know, or the ISS going by. I mean, you have to really know what you're looking at and know what you're doing. you know, to make these extraordinary claims.

If you're going to make an extraordinary claim, you demo very have extraordinary evidence to back it up, or you're going to get, you know, chewed up by, you know, the skeptics, bunkers and the media, too. So Frank and I are being very, very careful with this. And as I, as we're releasing this, releasing it, and we're showing the data so people can look at the data and say, I can, you know, and it finds.

At this point, I haven't had anybody since the first time I started releasing this, you know, come out and say, oh, I can identify exactly. Here's the, you know, here's the sheet, the alloy sheet that says that's what it's that. You know, and okay. But, you know, if we were trying to hide something, we wouldn't put the data out there for damn stuff. You know. So, you know, we put it out there and say, look, guys, this is what we're finding. Here's the data, you know, you tell me.

Yeah. So, yeah. Sorry, Chuck. I'm just like the gravity of these results really hit me when you put out this post recently of this 6,000 ally. I mean, this comes back highly anomalous. Like you guys mentioned, there was a high level of barium found as well. I don't think people realize like how important this discovery could actually be and what could happen after this in terms of more testing. It's crazy.

It's really funny, too, because the first piece I had tested, and I didn't post it because I didn't say that it had barium in it. And we were thinking, what the hell is barium? There must be an issue. And we're poking on. But you see, you know, when you do an x-ray spectrometer or SCM, you're looking at a very, very small, small piece of, the large, you know, very tiny. And I mean, if you look at the picture on my website where it shows an extreme close-up, and it looks like you're looking inside a cavern, you'll see a little scale right there.

It says, I think does it say five microns or something? It's really crazy. Let me just scroll down there and see that one piece. But let's see. I think, yeah, so it says five microns. If you go to my website, UFO nut.com, you'll see that. that image there. And so it almost looks like you're looking.

Yeah, that's it right there. So on the lower right-hand corner, you'll see five microns. So five microns, I explained it, you know, what a micron is. And it's one times 10 to the minus six. And this is microchip size, you know, structures is what we're looking at right here. And so when you get down and you're poking around, you may pick up a little bit. bit of barrier. We may not be. See, we were using an x-ray spectrometer, so we were getting down to this level when I first had to test it, you know, the piece in the beginning of June.

Now, if you look at the color pictures to the right there, that whole speckled pattern, each color now, this is using an SCM, scanning electron microscope, and this particular one, what it does is it shows you on the elements, you know, how it's, how that element is, scattered within the metal. And if you see blotches, like with silicon, I'm sorry, silicon, there's two different types. One's on microchips and ones in people's bodies. You might see splotches.

And that could just mean it just could be a contaminated metal with silicon from being out in the middle of desert over decades. But if you see speckled pattern like you're seeing here, that means it's part of of the metal itself as part of the alloy itself. And when you're looking at that end, so we did get barium hits from the first metal. I thought, okay, maybe the x-ray spectrometer was picking up something unusual, maybe not. And I was focusing more on the aluminum alloys.

But Frank being the smarter of the two when it comes to geology, focused on that and saw that that was the case. next time we'll look for Berium more. I mean, we're learning with this. Exactly. You're learning as you go. And I think that's what's most important. And, you know, I can be fully transparent.

I am working with an individual and with Frank on hopefully assisting you guys in getting those isotopic tests done. That's in motion right now. I can say that. There's communication happening where hopefully we can get more tests, whatever we can do in the public research community to help you guys. I mean, you did the hard part. You guys discovered these. You did the initial testing.

Let the rest of us take some of that weight off your shoulders now. But you get all the credit. You get all the credit, Chuck, when this does come back extraterrestrial. Well, the thing is, I mean, we're the initiators. But by opening it to the public and releasing all our information. Now, if anybody's ever been to my website that passed, any time I do an investigation, I throw it all out there. Because, you know, I don't hide anything. Well, I mean, there's certain things I can't say because it may be military-oriented

and I don't want to, you know, muck with crossing that, you know, proverbial line or anything. But when it comes to the olfology, I throw everything out there and I throw it out there for people to look at themselves. and make their own decisions. Now, just, you know, I see things my way. I try and I have tons and tons of books behind me and more books and boxes. And I'll use some of those books as reference, but I don't treat it as a Bible. Because a lot of those investigators that are writing these books, well, every one of those investigators have never found proof of an extraterrestrial, you know, technology.

It's all speculation. So you have to be very, very careful if you're an investigator, You don't want to follow someone else's investigator or investigations because they haven't found anything yet. They may have some good information, but you got to take your own road and you've got to do it yourself. And you may pick up information here and there. You want to try a couple different things. I've done with catamulations. And I found that stuff that I was doing on my own, actually I was getting better results.

And so even people out there now that are following this, you can pick up some of the information from me. You throw it out there. and if you take your own little route, that's good too, because you may come up with something that we missed. You know, we only know what we know. And if you ever listen to anybody on anybody's podcast, it says, well, that guy's wrong, I know that. No, you don't.

No. You just think you know. I just think I know. Nobody knows everything. There's an idiot. Anyway, scientists out there recently. that I don't want to mention his name, but I know everything and there's no extra trestles.

And this is, you know, he's just a physicist and everybody knows who this guy is. But he only knows what he knows. And he's got these glasses on. I think we all know who you're talking about. Yeah. You can't do that. You have to completely be open. You have to be open to everything.

You don't want to follow that one guy's thought pattern because he's going to lead you to a rabbit hole and you're, and you're not going to go anywhere. You follow the people that say, hey, look at our evidence, go your own way and try and find things. Now, exactly what you're saying here about, you know, you helping us out with isotope analysis. That's what we want. We don't want to. Because, you know, like you said, you know, if more people are involved in this, they get involved. The faster will get information done. The more avenues we can hit at once.

These investigators, some of these investigators, you know, you know, they've been going on for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years, you know, they've gone one way. And they haven't really, I mean, look at the Linda Moten Howell, right? She's really good at what she does. She's an investigative journalist, but has she proved extraterrestrials that existed? No, just because she stays on her own road. And you've got to be able to splinter off. You have to think way, way outside the box.

Sometimes you'll hit a block wall, you know, other times you can keep. keep going and, you know, that's what we do. But that's what makes it exciting. The more we do is, the more exciting is. And now with social media out there and talking to people like you and getting out to the public, really exciting now. I'm really happy about it. It's awesome, man.

Well, hey, I want to end on kind of a joke question, but maybe not. because recently we had this UFO congressional hearing with the House Oversight Committee. Very bold claims were made that the United States is in possession of crashed UFOs. There's programs being conducted to reverse engineer the technology. Again, very big, bold claims that have yet to be proven, but the investigations are going on right now. And this kind of led to something very interesting. in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2024. Bipartisan senators in the United States are calling for legislation,

where if there are intact spacecraft or even pieces, and that's the important part here, pieces of non-human craft in either the government's possession or in private possession, the United States government will inevitably have eminent domain over that, over that material, over those craft. If that law passes, that's going to be really interesting to see where all of this leads. We will see if any of what this UFO whistleblower says is true. But my big question for you is, this is kind of the jokey part, but I am serious too. Are you and Frank ever worried or concerned that the work you're doing and the pieces that you're discovering will eventually be swallowed up by the United States again if a law like this passes?

I mean, you look at like the materials that to the Stars Academy had or Linda Moulton Howe. And eventually those pieces went off to the United States Army to be tested and they were never heard from again. So somehow these materials always find their way back into the military industrial complex, it seems. So yeah, that's kind of my soapbox moment there. But do you think that these pieces could ever be taken from you guys before the ultimate tests come back? I can tell you this because I've talked to Frank about it. You know, it's interesting because I've got people asking me all the time, you know, well, you know, what are you going to do if you, you know, if you find out that it's extraterrestrial. What are you going to do? I go, I've been doing this for 35 years. That thought has only crossed my mind about a million times. And I've gone through every scenario. I have to tell you this. This is absolutely true. Polygraph, if you want to pay for polygraph. In the past couple decades, I've been contacted twice by someone, it appears to be within the government asking me specific questions. They would call me. When cell phones first came out, and I,

Our phone numbers weren't as, you know, as easy to get as it is now. I got a call from an individual, and he was asking me about the piece of metal that I found, you know, back in 2002. Very specific questions. Mr. Zukowski, can you tell me about this, what you found? What are your results? That-da-da-da-da. And I said that, and I was very open with them, very truthful. And I said, if you need any more help, give me a call.

You know, I'm not here to keep anything from our government. and I'm not here to keep anything from the public. Everybody gets all open. And he said, thank you very much. And that was the end of that, very polite. A couple years later, I got another phone call. And it was, I can't tell you if it's the same individual because it was years later. But it was another male voice.

And Mr. Zucoskid, can you tell me about the animal mutations? And some of the investigations and what have you found on that? And that was very, you know, very specific questions. I answered the questions to the best of my knowledge at that time from what I knew. And he said, thank you very much. And so they do, I believe. you know, they do come in from time to time and poke around and see what you're doing and look at the websites and stuff. Now, if someone popped up to my door and says, okay, we've got to confiscate your material.

And I said, fine, you want to sign to work? I'll give it to you. It's perfectly fine because now I can say, hey, guess what? The government came over and took this stuff from me. That means it must be important enough that they took it. Right. And that's a big red flag out there for everybody because now they're interested in this stuff and they want our material. And here's the point.

Frank and I'll just go back out to the brief sacrifice more. Exactly. Yeah. Or keep some hitting somewhere, please. Actually, I shouldn't say it. And then we'll just go back and we know what to look for. We know what to look for. We know what material is 6,000.

We know what's 3,000 because we've done this. enough now so we can identify it, visually identify it, you know, take it. Run with it. We'll just go out there and find some more. Yeah. What is that old saying? They doth protest too much, right? They take it to try to keep the story under wraps and of what it is. And in reality, them taking it is showing us there's something to it. There's something important. You know that I would just I would just roll on that and throw that out there like the Nobody's tomorrow. Now here's something Frank and I told, talked about. If they came to us and said, we don't want you to talk about this anymore. Okay, now that's a scenario too. Then we would say, the only way we'll do that is if you fill us in. That's fair. That's a good deal. And, you know, and we would sign non-disclosures. Now people after going, well, why would you do that? Well, because we've been doing this so long. long that it's our obsession, you know, and it's, you know, it's something that that we want to

figure out before we leave this planet, however we leave it. But yeah, I'm not going to turn down. I'm not, you know, if someone comes in and says, hey, you want to work for us? I'm not going to turn that down. If it'll lead me to the truth of, you know, extraterrestrials living on this planet or visiting this planet or whatever, because, you know, that'll, you know, that'll satisfy find me. At this point, you know, everything goes out. But you have to think about all the scenarios too, because they get just off you.

You got to think about that too. So, you know, and that's happened. Remember Max Spears? Yeah. Yep. The black vial they found. Yeah. So he told his mom a couple days before he

died. No, Max Spears was an investigator was. And he crossed that proverbial line. And then he taught you, I guess he text his mom or something. It says if, you know, something happens to me, go public with this and he was found dead with some type of a black liquid or something coming out of his mouth. It was in his lungs. So he was very strange. So this isn't, this isn't a business you want to go into that you think it's all fun and games.

It really isn't. You know, when you get phone calls from individuals that could be working for the Pentagon, you get followed. I've been followed once. My sister's investigator. Missouri. She's been followed a couple times in investigations. So, you know, we're being watched, basically, and they're watching us and seeing what we're doing. And, you know, if we go in an area that they don't want us to go in, they're going to let us know. Hopefully they're going to let us know ahead of time and not just run us off the road or, you know, something.

But I think that's not going to be the case now because there's a lot of people within the government and a lot of people within the military that want this stuff to go public. And I think it's the perfect time right now. It's the right time, like you said, with legislation, you know, in development that gets us out there. So, and then social media. You know, now, you know, we say something and it, you know, just like a speed of light. It's out there. And everybody has access to it. And it's because of your viewers, you know, that are helping this become a reality because they talk, they see it.

It's because of you with your podcasts. But you're getting the information out, the people are watching it, and it's a multiplier effect that trickles out. You know, it's a virus, but it's a good virus. A good virus. A good virus. That's a virus that you definitely want. Yes, for sure, man. Well, hey, you mentioned people watching you.

While we don't want the men in black watching you, Chuck, where can everyone else watch you, find you, keep up with your work? Give us all of that information, man. Well, that's a UFO nut. So it's UFONUT.com. The reason why it's UFO nut is because years and years ago, you know, I was called a nut. People said, you're just crazy doing this. And some people still do. They're so, you know, tunnel vision.

They can't, you know, they can't see anything outside of wherever they're going. And they said, well, you're crazy or not or whatever. And so instead of getting mad, I decided to go with it and just kind of flow with it. And I created an acronym where it's unconventional flying objects, non-human, unrecognizable technology. So that's UFO nut. But the license plate in my truck, UFO bikers on my Harley, UFO Lab is on my trailer. So let's guess this is right here. UFO Nut, my Harley and UFO bikers stuff.

So, you know, I'm very open and public about it. And it's really cool because people will see it and they'll stop me. And they'll give me, you know, their own, you know, reports of sightings and stuff. So it's pretty cool. Uofonut.com. At the very top, it says email, Chuck. That's directly to me. So please, you know, if you have any questions, email me, depending on how many emails I get,

it may take a couple days for me to, you know, to get back to you. But I do get back to every one of my emails. And look at the website. You know, it's all out there. from cattle mutilations to lights in the sky that I've filmed to the Roswell stuff going way, way, way back. It's all out there for everybody to look at it and make your own assessment. Make your own judgments. Just because I'm a UFO investigator, I'm not saying that I know at all.

I don't know it all. Like I said, this is a learning experience for me and Frank and how we do this stuff. You got some great ideas? Let us know because we don't know everything. But don't ever, ever trust any investigator out there that says, I know it all, I know everything, and you don't know what you're talking about. And no, that's not true. You know, you got to leave everything open. Absolutely, man. It's a mystery we all continue to chase for our own reasons, our own purpose, our own meaning. And, hey, in terms of your meaning and Franks, I can't wait to see what comes over this. It's very exciting. and we'll have to have you back on when we get those isotopic ratios back for sure. Well, I guess, you know, it's funny because we were talking to, I'm not going to mention the other individuals,

but, you know, they wanted us to go public with them, and they were going to do a big press release and a press conference and on and on. And it turns out that they were kind of exploiting what we were doing, you know, for their own benefit. That's okay. I understand. Everybody's got an angle. and that's not a problem. But then they come back at the last minute, and this was just Friday,

you know, because I was going to hold off until this week coming up to do a press release and a whole bit. And they said, well, we want you to have more data. And we have enough data and Istop analysis that it proves that it's extra threshold. Come back and we'll do the press release

and we can guarantee all this and all the TV spots you want. And I go, I don't need you. If I can come out, and say this is extraterrestrial. Everyone's going to be coming to me and Frank. That's top analysis different, though. You know, when we get our, you know, as we go through the process and,

and we do more lab results, absolutely. We want to come back on this podcast and tell you exactly what we're finding, you know. But you'll know if it's extraterrestrial, it'll be everyone. Oh, yeah. We'll tell us that. Asatopo analysis will be another big sense. step. You know, and then after isotope analysis, if it says it's anomaly, and we go out on your

podcast and releasing this information, isotop analysis, now we have to go to the science community. And now the science community, or even, you know, Congress. And we will go to Congress and say, look, we got something, we got evidence, proof. What's our next step? So something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, the steps are gradual, but they're baby steps. And we're in the infancy of disclosure. And we'll get there, man. We'll get there. Wow. I just, there's so much more I want to talk to you about, Chuck. But we'll save it for the next show.

This is a huge, huge development. And I can't be happier for you guys. And I have to thank you once again for coming on somewhere in the skies today. Well, you know, like I said, it's shows like yourself that gets this information out of public. And if we didn't have people like you that host these shows and then your viewers, listeners, if it goes audio or video, you know, it wouldn't help us. And the whole purpose of this is to get the information out public. But you guys, you're the driving force. You know, we're the ones that started it.

You know, we'll start the car, but you're going to help us drive it. And that's what we need. We're not going to be able to get from A to B without, you know, the support of your viewers and listeners in these podcasts. And you're the first one. So you're going to be jumping off the floor and starting that car and getting it around. I am revving that engine. I'm revving that engine, brother.

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