Somewhere in the Skies - OMNIBUS 09 | Alien Abductions: Part 2

Episode Date: September 13, 2025

👽 In this episode of Omnibus, we dive into the mystery of alien abductions, exploring the groundbreaking work of John Mack and Budd Hopkins, and revisiting famous cases like Travis Walton, Betty & Barney Hill, the Brooklyn Bridge abduction, and the Rua, Zimbabwe school encounter. From missing time and hybridization programs to transformative spiritual experiences, we examine how these stories connect, why governments and intelligence agencies remain entangled in the debate, and what these encounters might reveal about UFOs, UAPs, and the human experience. Please take a moment to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple. ANOMACON 2025: http://www.anomacon.com Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Email: [e-mail] Discord: https://discord.gg/NTkmuwyB4F Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ryansprague.bsky.social Twitter: https://twitter.com/SomewhereSkies Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somewhereskiespod/ Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Store: http://tee.pub/lic/ULZAy7IY12U Proud member of SpectreVision Radio: https://www.spectrevision.com/podcasts Read Ryan’s articles at: https://medium.com/@ryan-sprague51 Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Copyright © 2025 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #AlienAbduction #UFOpodcast #JohnMack #BuddHopkins #TravisWalton #BettyAndBarneyHill #UAP #Extraterrestrial Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Spector Vision Radio. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your host, Ryan Sprague, and we have a very special guest of the show today. We're going to be talking to Ralph Blumenthal, the New York Times writer, the author of the new biography on the life and career of John Mack, The Believer. We're going to dive into the book and everything else that Ralph has been up to you. So for the very first time, Ralph, thank you for. joining me on Somewhere in the Skies.

It's a real pleasure, Ryan. Thank you. I got the book about, I'd say maybe two and a half, three weeks ago, and I could not put it down, man. I thought I knew everything about John Mack, but that clearly was not the case. So this is going to be fun. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Well, you know, before we, I guess before we get to the book, I have to ask, since this is my first time actually being able to interview you, we got to start with the 2017 article. I know you're probably sick of talking about this at this point,

but the article heard around the world. It changed the entire conversation about UFOs in the mainstream. So I'd love maybe if you could just run us through your experience with that, the process of the article, how it came about, how you felt about the whole thing when it finally came out. Yeah, could you give us the origin story of the article? Sure, absolutely. So I was working on the John Macbook.

at the time. I've been working on it for actually for 16 years. So I was working on the book, and Leslie Kane, my colleague in UFO Matters and distinguished writer herself and now with a series on afterlife experiences on Netflix. Anyway, she came to me with a great story that she had been at a meeting in Washington, D.C., with some Pentagon people and others, And there was a secret Pentagon program to monitor UFOs, which nobody knew about because the government was keeping it, you know, really sub-Rosa, very secret, while pretending, of course, it wasn't really interested in UFOs. So this was really exciting. Leslie came to me with this story. She was at the meeting. It was on the record or soon to be on the record. And we went to the New York Times through my contacts. I'd been at the New York Times for 45 years, and I retired in 2009. and started just contributing to the times.

But I was not on the regular staff, but I still had a lot of friends among the editors there. And I pitched them. I said, this is an amazing story. The fact that the Pentagon has a secret program to monitor UFOs. And a guy in charge of it is quitting because he's unhappy. And they went for it.

They were all excited. The important thing is that, which really changed the paradigm, as you said, we got this all on the record. There were no anonymous sources. There was nothing secretive about our reporting. It was all straightforward.

We had the documentation. We had the letter resignation. And people talked us on the record. So we really didn't have much trouble getting it into New York Times because I was experienced in what it took to get a story into the paper. The Times not only went for it, they put it on the front page, as you know. and it did cause quite a stir because here was the New York Times

giving credence to this phenomenon which had long been in the shadows and a lot of things followed from that. The Navy videos came out after that. We got access to, actually the first ones came out with the story itself in December 2017. We had actual Navy videos of encounters

with objects. they don't know what they are, where they come from, who's behind the wheel. Nobody's talking about that because nobody knows. But it was the first time, really, it established that UFOs were real, that they were not figments of imagination, they were not metaphysical, metaphorical, you know, objects, whatever, which people were debating for a long time. Now, people like you and experts in the field know that they've had a reality to them, for a long time.

But scientists have been hard to convince. There have been a lot of skeptics out there, as you know, who kept saying, well, we don't know what they are and are they real, and if they're real, why don't we see them land on the White House lawn and all that stuff? So we were able to show conclusively that at least our government thinks they're real.

And Navy pilots who encountered them think they're real. And so that was the story of that. And then since then we've come up with some other stories interviewing the pilots. We got other videos, and that's been the story with the New York Times. Yeah, it's been quite a journey. And I definitely, I have a listener question for you towards the end here about one of those follow-up articles. But before we get to that, you're right. This completely changed, I think, the landscape of this topic when it comes to the public overall. Like you said, us in the UFO field, you know, we've known UFOs exist.

It's those next harder questions, like you said. What are they? Where do they come from? What are the motivations? What do they represent? And I think that's what our government is now, you know, trying to dig and look into, just like you guys are at the Times and in civilian journalists and researchers as well. So it's exciting. Yeah, well, they want to know what the technology is because.

Right. But first of all, if another adversary nation, let's say, has this technology, we're in a lot of trouble. Now, it does not appear to be the case that anybody has this technology, any other earthly power, because if they did, we'd be way behind. So it is a race, not only us, the Russians, the Chinese, trying to figure out what this technology is, how do we duplicate it, how do we reverse engineer it?

So that's probably the next step in the reporting that everybody's chasing. Exactly. And so I guess, Ralph, the sort of the, sort of the, gap we have here. You know, UFOs in the government is one thing. Aliens and possible abductions in close encounters are another. And, you know, I struggle in the UFO field every day of this one extreme of nuts and bolts scientific study of UFOs and this whole other side of the spectrum. It is a big leap. You're absolutely right. And you'll notice we did not go there in the New York Times because the level of verification is not there with aliens and alien abduction.

It was hard enough to get the videos, the Navy videos, of encounters with these objects, Tic Tacs, so-called, some of them resemble giant Tic Tacs. So, you know, we try to stick very closely to the facts, what we can verify, and not in areas of speculation. People are always asking me to speculate. Well, what do you think they are? What do you think? Where do you think they come?

from? And I don't speculate. I mean, I'm just trying to get people to talk on the record and figure it out and report what we know. So there is a big leap. And the book, of course, deals with aliens and alien abduction because that's what John Mack was concerned with. He, if you want to know a little bit about, as you say, the new generation may not be up on John Mack. Yeah, give us an idea of who he was, if you don't mind. And I guess how you got involved in writing all about him. Okay. So first of all, John Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist, very esteemed. He had written a biography of Lawrence of Arabia, which won a pillet surprise. You know, he went to the movies like everybody else to see the movie, Lawrence of Arabia. And unlike everybody else,

he decided, I'm going to learn about this guy and see what makes him tick. So he studied Lawrence, went to England and tracked down Lawrence's family and, you know, recreated, did a whole psychological workup of Lawrence Arabia, T.E. Lawrence, and wrote a book that was a masterpiece. He was a surprise. So he was very highly regarded. He was a peace activist. He met with Yasser Arafat in the Middle East to try to establish a peace with the Palestinians and the Israelis. He protested nuclear weapons. He did a lot of things very well grounded on planet Earth. And then through a series of circumstances, which I can go into later if we have time, He became aware that people were reporting encounters with alien beings.

They were seeing UFOs. They remembered either under hypnosis or even often without hypnosis, recounting these strange meetings with alien beings who captured them, captivated them, took them aboard spaceships for bizarre experiments, sometimes reproduction related to create a hybrid. race of, you know, hybrid babies. Crazy stuff. I mean, really extraordinary, not grounded in our reality, as we can, you know, understand it. Well, my experience has started when I was very young. I can remember as far back as six years old, you know, being in my room, being, you know, just going to bed.

And then aware that there were six light shafts coming down through the ceiling and would stand around my bed and start turning into a human-like-looking form. They do seem to be able to walk through walls and materialize. These beings materialize into a physical form. So it's hard to say they might be from another dimension, so to speak, or anything like that. This being rushed at me across the bed. She had a tool in her hand and she was performing some mysterious. procedure on me.

What did it involve? I wasn't allowed to lift my heads. What I could see was what I could see looking down across my face. And I saw the tool. I don't even want to know what she was doing. It was horrible. It was frightening, and it lasted a long time. And he was taken by this.

He was a psychiatrist, so he knew when people were making stuff up and when people were lying to him. And certainly he... knew when people were crazy. And he concluded pretty quickly that these people were not mentally ill. They came from a broad cross-section of humanity. There were even young children, as young as two, who told them flying up to the sky, you know, being taken up by alien little men to their spaceship. And you can't say that these children were affected by the cultural milieu or movies or books that they read. So he was taken by all this.

Some of these people had scars on their body. They didn't remember getting in life ever. There were indications that wherever they saw a UFO landed, sometimes there were physical remnants. The ground was different. It measured somewhat differently in various tests. Grass didn't grow properly afterwards there. Anyway, for all these reasons and many others,

he came away believing that what these people encountered was true on some level. Probably these people were suffering from some new form of mental illness. But in the past four years, I've worked now with approximately 90 people who've had these experiences, and they tell a very similar story. And initially, at least in the early years, they hadn't been in communication with each other. They were deeply distressed by their experiences. The experiences were reported in great detail.

They were complex narratives of being taken by alien beings into UFOs on beams of light. They were embarrassed, ashamed to come forward about it. And you think these were wild dreams, hallucinations? Not only. These are very solid people, healthy, mentally healthy people. And the only thing I knew that behaves like that is real experience. This is not the way dreams behave. This is not the way mental illness behaves. It's not the way fantasy behaves. Some kind of real experiences occurring to these people.

But if this is a real experience, that is some kind of entities, beings, intelligences are entering our world and affecting hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people, according to polls, then this is something really worth looking at. So that's what I've been trying to do is get people at least look at it, think about it. Something happened to these people. He didn't know what it was. Nobody knows, to this day nobody knows what it is, what the phenomenon entails.

That doesn't mean something didn't happen somehow on some level that we don't understand. Anyway, so that's John Mack. And then he wrote two bestselling books. He went on Oprah. He met with the Dalai Lama to discuss his theories. He really got around. And then when he was about to turn 75 years old, he went to London for a conference on Lawrence of Arabia. He was being, you know, lionized for his book years later.

And he got run over by a drunk driver in London. He looked the wrong way. It was not a conspiracy. It was not an assassination. A lot of people thought, ah, they're getting him out of the way, you know. He got bumped off. Not true. I checked the police records.

I did a lot of reporting. That's my business, you know, hard-nose reporting. So anyway, so that was the trajectory of his life, basically. And I was fascinated by his story, that he, that a eminent scientist, a physician, a psychiatrist, would get so taken with this question of aliens. So that was my interest. How I, you know, got into it, I mean, I picked up one of the books one day. I was the New York Times correspondent in Texas. And, you know, I was reporting on Texas, and I, you know, picked up in a used bookstore somewhere, a copy of a second book, which is a,

called Passport to the Cosmos. And I said, wow, I mean, a Harvard psychiatrist who's, you know, investigating aliens, this is amazing. So I said, I'm going to write a story about this guy. I had no idea how famous he already was. I was very naive. I thought I discovered him. He was very famous. As I said, he'd been on Oprah. He'd been written up countless times, including by the New York Times. And I said, I got to call this guy up and get an interview. And just then he was run over. So that, you know, that put an end to that. Right. That's how I got into it.

Interesting. Now, so you decide to write this book and you start digging into, you know, his personal files. I assume talking to friends, colleagues, family members. I guess the big question, as many of us in the UFO field get, Ralph, is how did his family react to him getting involved in this? his colleagues, I would imagine that was pretty interesting in terms of his responsibilities as a responsible psychiatrist, also working at Harvard. And then this whole other life he was leading in this alien abduction thing. So yeah, can you give us a little idea of how he was perceived by those around him?

A lot of people couldn't understand what he was doing. I mean, his colleagues at Harvard, a lot of them who liked him personally, thought he'd done off the deep end. you know, science is a conventional science is a pretty close field. And head, people have to, they feel they have to follow a well-trodden path. They can't be too out there. You know, science is as close-minded often as every other field in terms of not being open to new discoveries. Remember, there were people who refused to look through Galileo's telescope. You know, he invited them.

He said, look what I'm seeing. And no, we're not going to look because, you know, we don't believe it. we have that counterpart today. So a lot of his colleagues at Harvard thought he lost it. But he had quite a few friends also who respected him as a scholar and thought he must be on to something. His family also didn't always share his enthusiasm for this field. His wife, his long-suffering wife, Sally, put up with a lot, including Max's interest in other women, which I go into in the book.

He was a pretty freewheeling spirit, loved humanity, loved women, loved life, loved a lot of things, and got him into a bit of trouble with his marriage. But she supported his work because she realized he was serious. But his family couldn't make much of what he was doing. So he had battles on a lot of fronts, including particularly with, Harvard, with superiors at Harvard, who thought he was giving Harvard a bad name and put him under investigation. But I mean, as I point out in the book, the believer, Harvard has a long history of engaging with fringe subjects. I mean, William James, the father of psychology,

was investigating seances and ectoplasm and, you know, all kinds of weird stuff 100 years ago. Now, of course, we have Avi Loeb, the Harvard astronomer who's reporting on this object. Nobody knows what it is or was. It passed through our solar system. And it might have been a man, you know, not manmade, but intelligent object. Man made. So Harvard's going through it again in a way. But, I mean, so Harvard's superiors at the time were quite put off.

Max research and they thought that he was a little too enthusiastic, which he was. He got caught up. He was very passionate and their titled Passion is in the title of my book. So they wanted him to be more judicious somehow, more distant from his subjects. And that wasn't his style. He threw himself into everything he did. And he kind of admitted this when he was under investigation by Harvard. but that didn't take away from his rigorous methods. He interviewed people, studied them. He tried to see what other explanations there might be for this. He was not close-minded.

He really was open, and he attended a lot of conferences where these ideas were battered around because people were always trying to figure out what the hell is going on. What the source of this is, who these beings are, where they come from, what creates this intelligence? I don't know. but there's something profoundly important going on here that is authentic and real.

Anyway, but Harvard in the end found he was doing nothing really wrong. He was a little too enthusiastic, but he was not committing any breaches of, you know, Harvard rules, and they basically exonerated him, and we had wonderful lawyers defending him. He had Danny Sheehan, who had investigated the Iran-Contra scandal in the government, he investigated the Ku Klux Klan. He investigated Karen Silkwood's story about how she was possibly assassinated at her nuclear plant. He was a really red-hot lawyer. And the other lawyer was Eric McLeish who investigated the Roman Catholic priest scandal.

He broke that story, basically. You know, that became the movie spotlight. So Mack had three big lawyers who were very aggressive, and they made Harvard. you know, prove or try to prove charges against Mac, which they couldn't do. Wow. Yeah. And I know, you know, there's even points in the book where you pointed out, people like Mac's stepmother saying never run away from a fight. And it's small things like that. Ralph, in the book that really caught my attention that give Mac this humanity that we don't have to see. You know, many of us see him in these interviews on Oprah or, you know, the, the, the

famous Rua Zimbabwe documentary videos, which I'd love to get your opinion on in a minute here. But I guess were there any of the actual abduction stories in the book that you cover that really stood out to you? So one that like, you know, you just couldn't wrap your mind around. You know, there's so many. Yeah. But one of the ones that stands out, I mean, you can't really talk about Mac, by the way, without talking about Bud Hopkins, who was the one who got involved.

And Bud was a real pioneer. Bud was involved in alien abduction investigation before John Mack. He was an artist who, through a whole series of circumstances, he spotted a UFO once, and he got interested. He taught himself hypnosis, which is not always the best thing for a non-professional. Anyway, he did his own investigations, and he came up with some phenomenal stories. because he interviewed people, you know, coming forward with these abduction stories. And he, by the way, basically invented the concept of missing time.

People who, you know, encounter a UFO, you know, alien beings, and then can account for, you know, two or three hours of missing time. They arrive home late and they don't know why they were delayed. And then later it comes back to them that they have. had all these experiences on a ship and there were subjective experiments and all. So these stories come to them later, but the missing time is common. And Bud Hopkins sort of investigated that. Anyway, Bud's most famous case probably was the Linda Cortile, so-called case,

the Brooklyn Bridge. I laughed just thinking about the name, the Brooklyn Bridge abduction. I know, considering you and I both live in New York, this case, just like, yeah, it's amazing that a case. Yeah. You know, yes, we got cases that, I mean, that case has never been solved. It's a mystery to this day. But basically, they were witnesses.

We don't know who exactly they were, but some have come forward, who saw a woman being levitated out of her 11th story window over the Brooklyn Bridge from her apartment and going into a spaceship, of being escorted by three little beings. And traffic came to a stop on the Brooklyn Bridge. And I mean, there's all kinds of accounts. And Bud wrote a whole book about this. The problem is there were two people, two security guards,

who basically told Bud the story originally, the original witnesses. And Bud could never track them down to the point where he knew who they were. He got videos from them, audio tapes, He got letters from them, but he would never able to find out who they were who actually saw this. Now, later, you know, different witnesses have come forward and said they saw this. But the case had some holes in it. But it was really the most extraordinary story you could ever imagine because we who live in New York know the Brooklyn Bridge.

And we can imagine, you know, what it would be like to see someone levitating out of their, you know, 11-floor window into the arms of three aliens into a spaceship that then fly, over the Brooklyn Bridge and over the East River and plunges into the river. Even for New York, Ralph, that's pretty crazy, right? Yeah, that case is insane. I mean, as you know, Ryan, there's a lot of stories about underwater craft. And, you know, the UFO phenomenon is not limited to the skies. There are many accounts, including Navy accounts that we have reported in the New York Times, of objects going into the water or coming out of the water and operating in that medium,

you know, the water, which really blows your mind. You can sort of imagine something up in the sky, you know, like a plane, but operating underwater, you know, very, very strange. So anyway, that's one of the crazy, you know, cases that obsessed Mack and Bud Hopkins and everybody else who's ever, you know, looked into it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Bud was kind of max, I guess, entrance into this whole topic. You know, I know they met up in New York at one point,

started corresponding, and that kind of got Mac on the path he led. But Ralph, I know in the book, you kind of show that just because they had a similar interest and whatnot, they had very different views on, you know, a lot of what was going on. They butted heads a lot. Is that right? They did. They did. Bud Hopkins and a third member of their group, David Jacobs, who was a professor at Temple University, who became a really a noted historian on UFOs. He wrote a book in the 70s called The UFO Controversity in America that became a bestseller. And he really traced the history of UFO sighting. A real scholar in the field. and he also, he was attracted to the questions of alien abduction through Bud Hopkins and ended up using hypnosis to investigate his own cases of people. He attracted and collected.

But as I point out in the book, in the believer, Hopkins and Jacobs seemed much more wedded to the idea that, these were real events, that they happened in a reality that we have to, you know, accept, a physical reality. They were real events. And Mac, who started off thinking that that may be the case, more and more began thinking that it must be happening in some other dimension, some other dimension, some other plane, because it's just too hard to accept that it's happening in everyday reality. So they did have a parting of the ways. They reconciled later before Mac died.

And Mac always respected, you know, the research that Jacobs and Hopkins had done. But Mac became much more spiritual and philosophical about it and began thinking, well, there are all these other paranormal or anomalous events that have to be reconciled with this. And that actually was Max's big mistake in the beginning, that he focused on alien abductions as something, you know, singular, let's say, special. And later he began to realize that it's really only part of a whole spectrum of anomalous experiences that the old Haig syndrome, for example. And basically, a lot of people in Newfoundland, according to the research by David Hufford, a great scholar of this field, they would encounter these evil presences that would come

upon them at night and sit on their chest and strangle them. And it happened to Hufford himself, the guy who wrote the book, a scientist, crop circles, near-death experiences. There's a whole, spectrum of experiences that are not classic alien abduction. Whitley Streber, for example, who really was another pioneer in this field with his book Communion, his experiences don't match the classic experience. They were totally wild and, you know, sort of atypical, if anything, he said to be typical in this field. And so it's a much more complicated question than Max started off seeing. So but Jacobs and Hopkins sort of went along a different path.

Right. And again, like you mentioned, I mean, none of us, including those three researchers, truly know what's going on. And, you know, you have to hypothesize and go down these roads because this UFO topic seems to just be so malleable. You know, you can look at it through every lens. Like you mentioned, spiritually, psychologically, historically. And then, you know, one of the historical aspects, Ralph, I wanted to touch on too, was that part of your book. It was almost a kind of an interweaving of two different stories,

the story of John Mack, and then tracing the history of UFO phenomenon. on throughout the years and how they kind of intersected. So I'd love to get your thoughts on why did you decide to structure the book that way? Yeah, I needed to, I mean, people who studied the field like yourself for a long time don't need to be reminded of Kenneth Arnold in 1947 and how he spotted, you know, nine objects over Mount Rainier. So there's sort of classic stories of UFOs of Roswell, for example. What happened at Roswell or some kind of crash in 1947?

A lot of things happened in 1947, by the way. It kind of an interesting year. But, and, you know, the war years and the post-war years are very important. But anyway, I felt for people who are not conversant with this field, they needed to know. some history. And the hard thing was, frankly, to put in enough history so that, first of all, you didn't want to put in so much history that it would bore people to death, because you could write a whole book on, you know, the origins of the UFO story. So there had to be just enough of it to bring people up to speed, not too much to take over the book. And it was kind of

grafted on to the Mac story because Mac himself didn't really study UFO history. Once he got interested in, you know, alien research, et cetera, I think he informed himself. But he was not a person who, you know, got into it after studying the history. He studied some of the history after he began looking into it. But I felt it was it was actually hard to blend in the story. for example, the story of Betty and Bonnie Hill, the most famous UFO abduction, you know, in New Hampshire in 1965, I believe. That story I had to go into because that's sort of the load star of alien abduction. That's the story that brought alien abduction to, you know, the attention of the world through the book and later the movie.

so I had to tell that story at some length. So for people who are not familiar with, you know, the whole phenomenon, I think they needed to be told what, you know, what the origins of this whole thing are. For other people who know the story well, it might be a bit of a book, well, we know that, we know that. But I wanted to, you know, position the book for people who needed to have that background. What's up guys, Ryan Sprague.

here and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the skies is always free to consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere Thank you and keep looking up. It gives us context of what we're working with. Again, people are going to read your book that have never looked into a UFOs or their history,

but then the next level of the abduction phenomenon. So I think it does kind of, it gives the full picture of just how unbelievably weird and strange and possibly interconnected this all is. But I guess kind of wrapping up the book, Ralph, specifically, I definitely want people to go read it. What do you want people to take away with the book and sort of the legacy of John Mack? Like I mentioned earlier, we have these small snippets of him and interviews and everything. So unless you knew him in your life, you don't get that full picture of who this guy was. So what legacy do you think Mac really brought?

That's a really good question, Ryan. Well, I think what I take away from it is a story of, first of all, as I say at the end of the book, Mack exemplified the best of our species, meaning the human race. He was a human being who insisted on following clues to a mystery and would not be put off. In that sense, I call him, he, he, And I think he went on a hero's journey, the classic hero's journey, of initiation, obstacles, and eventually, and reluctance to shoulder the task. And finally, some kind of triumph where he returns with a gift for humanity, which is the knowledge that he acquired. So in that sense, I consider him a hero.

He was a flawed hero. He made mistakes. He was very much of a human being. He had warts. He was too enthusiastic. He had problems with his marriage. He played around with drugs to enhance his mind. He was not perfect. But I think he was a model for people who encounter a mystery and are determined to run it back to its source. Whatever the obstacles, whatever the ramifications, the penalties. He paid a lot of penalties. He was laughed at. He was ridiculed. He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees during the Harvard investigation. But I think there was something very much admirable about the way he went about not turning his back, you know, on this mystery. And because it was, it subjected him to the ridicule factor. And it was like the third rail, you know, touching the third rail for a distinguished academician to take on this field, and yet he did it anyway. So I think that's what I take away.

And, you know, it is a mystery. And, you know, again, I have very little patience with the so-called skeptics and debunkers who think they have the answer to everything, and they know exactly what this phenomenon is, you know, it's mental illness or it's sleep apnea. And all these things can be debunked. They have an answer. It's not sleep apnea necessarily because a lot of it doesn't happen during sleep. People are awake. Not, you know, a function.

That doesn't come out through hypnosis because people have conscious memories of these things. It's not a cultural artifact because little children have this. So you can, Mac was very meticulous in knocking down all these straw men that were being put up by the so-called skeptics who are not really skeptical because they don't approach it with an open mind. They're just determined to knock this down. So I would say that if you're going to go into this field, the first thing you owe it is to devote some time to reading the literature by experts. Read the MIT conference with the experts eminent scientists of all walks of life, all fields, debated this subject seriously at an academic forum like MIT. So at least give it that. Learn the arguments. And then you can figure out why you think it's not true or knock it down. But don't go into it as, you know, ignorantly and say, ah, this is nonsense, it's crap, it's, you know, because that's not fair. A lot of people have devoted a lot of time to this phenomenon, a lot of expertise. It is a genuine mystery. If it was an easy answer, someone would have found it by now. But it isn't. And I think that's what I take away from it. Yeah, I like that. And you're right. You know, so many of the people who have looked into this topic their whole lives, someone like Stanton Friedman, you know, who passed away just a couple years ago, left not knowing the answers. And we probably won't get them either. But I think you're right. It's working off, building off of that and respecting the work that came before that and having an appreciation that people risked a lot to look into this. You know, when I first got in,

interested, all my friends and family and coworkers said, don't do this. Like, don't get involved with this. But, hey, I mean, again, Ralph, you were a big part of that story changing and that acceptance changing. And now UFOs are more mainstream than ever. And we can start asking those harder questions. The government is much more open, as you know, there is a mandate to release report within a few months. If they do that in the Defense Authorization Act, the UAP Task Force is

supposed to report. Some of it will be public. Some of it may not be. So the government has come a long way. I think they are genuinely puzzled as well as are we out there. And so it's good that we're asking these questions, and it's good that we're devoting attention to this. And it is people like you who've taken the risk of going public with it and studying it, who really should be commended. Well, thank you. The same could be said for the work you've done. And I know we have a lot of appreciation from the listeners. I've got a couple listener questions. Everyone to stick around for those. Cool. I'll run right down the list here. So Mike C through email asks, Dr. Mack's book Abduction, Mac painted a picture of something far more transcendent,

and just little scientists visiting Earth and metal flying saucers like we talked about. Did you feel any need to avoid or underplay the strangeness of the personal accounts that Dr. Mac collected? I know when I first started interviewing witnesses and experiencers, I would often tend to leave some of the more weirder stuff out until I realize you're not doing a service to anyone by doing that. That's part of the data. That's part of the story. So, yeah, what do you think? Anything like that? That's a very good point.

That in a lot of the accounts, the strangeness is left out because people are so eager to preserve the core story, the so-called core narrative of alien abduction. They lose sight of all the things that don't fit. Not everybody is subject to reproductive experiments in the spaceships. Whitley-Wittly Streba is a perfect example

of very strange things. encountered that had nothing to do with being taken up in a spaceship. And what I'm glad this caller brought up this point because where Mack really differs from Hopkins, probably the most important difference, is that he found in the accounts he got from his experiencers a transformative element in their lives, that they were apprised of the threat to the planet. They became more environmentally conscious, more spiritually inclined. They were not just traumatized, and many of them were not traumatized at all.

They felt transcendent that they were connecting to the source, to God, to some great power. So this went against the abduction narrative that you were taken aboard by, you know, evil little men and, you know, subject to horrible experiments. and some of that, you know, it was true that women came, particularly women, who said they were forced to give up their babies and their pregnancies were removed, which has never been scientifically proven, but it's certainly what they reported. But Max said, yeah, but there was another aspect to it, people who felt transformed by the experience,

whose eyes were opened up to the, you know, the beauties of the universe and the power of the universe, et cetera, et cetera. So that was also an aspect. And I put that in the book. I didn't feel I had to leave that out at all. I mean, that was an important part of Max research. And that is often lost, really, in the stories of alien abduction. That you're right, that people stick to a core story,

and they lose sight of all the things that don't fit. But the real scholars in the field say those are even the most important things, the things that don't fit, because why don't they fit? That's the answer to the mystery. And I know we glossed over the whole Zimbabwe case with Mac. We won't go into it here. I know a lot of listeners are familiar with it. I'll probably put a couple clips in from those famous interviews Mac did where, you know,

60-something students, children had a close encounter with something. And just like you said, had transformative experiences. It was scary myself. It was scary because you saw something yourself. Yes, I saw a little object hovering. It was quite big, actually, and then there was little ones all around it. It was silver, and the ring around it was red. It was red.

The light come from the whole thing? There were lights around here. Lights along the edge there. How many of the strange beings did you see? I saw one over here. They had eyes like that, and they were kind of just like looking at us. They were like kind of astonished. Was he near the silver object or was he far?

No, on top. On top of the silver object. Okay. And did you look at him? Yes. Did he look at you? Yes, then he gave me the creeps. Then I stopped looking at.

Actually, in your drawing, you showed him standing up, didn't you? Yes, I had to do him, standing up, was I couldn't dream sitting. I spoke to Selma Sadiq, one of the experiencers that was a child when that happened. And now, you know, she's a civil rights attorney, I believe it is. She's done incredible things with her life that she attributes to this thing that happened when she was a kid. Tremendously. And, you know, again, what I said about the children, these were, you know, young kids. I mean, they weren't two years old.

They were, you know, eight and nine and ten. But too young to really make up stories, you know, to conform with movies they'd seen. So they were good witnesses in the same. that they were pure children. And Mack found it some of the most powerful evidence he had ever encountered. And he took videos of it and the videos are on his website. And I found it very persuasive, I must say. I have some of the children's drawings in my book.

And I think people who are trying to explain this phenomenon away and say that it's crazy, it couldn't happen, you know, mental illness, et cetera. They have a very hard time dealing with the facts of that episode, the Rua Zimbabwe, you know, episode because it does not fit anything that can easily, you know, knocked down. Exactly. It's definitely a case everyone should look into. Well, Kevin on Twitter asks Ralph, kind of playing into the abductees, seeing how deeply traumatized many of them were.

In your research with Mack, did he feel that? that the truth was owed to these abductees to learn what happened to them? Or should it just remain a mystery? Well, he was very insistent that they should at least be validated, that what happened to them is worth investigating. As he told the Harvard committee, he didn't tell people, yeah, you were abducted by aliens. He never said it that way. But he said, he felt they were, oh, serious studies. And he didn't, and other psychiatrists who had treated some of these people before they

got to Mac did, you know, blow them off and say it's some fantasy of yours, it couldn't possibly be true. How can you can't believe this? And they left very unhappy because they were really puzzled because they knew

what had happened to them. What happened was for me, the conscious memories that I had, was in the middle of the night I woke up, very conscious, walked over to my living room, saw something in the room, felt the white light, felt the paralysis, and then I fell asleep. Several hours later, I woke up and had these intense emotions associated with the experience that just I couldn't fathom. Like, why was I so scared? Why was I terrified? What was... You had a bad dream? That's what I thought. That's what I wanted to believe. That's what I wanted to believe for years. And I think that's what most people want to believe.

What do you think this all means? Well, let me explain first. Why I concluded this is not psychiatric, why these people are not psychiatrically disturbed. What? Because I was concerned, when I first heard about this, I thought it must be madness. But when I heard that hundreds of thousands of people all over the country. Why not a publicity stump? Why not just? Because these people, like Peter, I can't tell you how difficult it is to get people to go on television to talk about this. People are not interested in being before the public.

They're very ashamed because they get ridiculed, humiliated about it. This is not something anybody does. This is not a club. anybody wants to belong to. This is not something people do because they want to be filmed or get on publicity. It's very difficult to get people to come forth and acknowledge they've had these experiences. Yes, and I've read interviews with people who have come forward years ago who wish that they hadn't. When I heard of it, hundreds of thousands of people all over the country from various polls, we know maybe even millions of people, have had very similar experiences. They don't know each other. The details that they're describing were not in the media.

They have nothing to gain by it. They feel ashamed of them. about it. That's number one. When I also heard that this was occurring in children, as young as two or three years old, that ruled out personality explanations. It's associated with UFOs, independently observed by witnesses, by media, by neighbors. It's also associated with physical findings, and, as said before, that people, when examined, are not psychiatrically disturbed. So the only thing that behaves like that is real experience. Yeah, you say that it's trauma, that it's trauma. It's traumatic. Real experiences are the only thing that occurs like that. that. Psychosis is not like that. Madness is not like that. Dreams are not like that. Fantasy is not like that.

Now, if these are real experiences, what is going on? What's the source of these experiences? Yeah, that's the question. What's going on? So these people somehow, whatever happened to them on whatever level, they knew what had happened. And when someone would say to them, well, that couldn't be true. Or that couldn't have happened the way you remember it. There were all kinds of experiments they did to try to implant memories to see whether people could make up, you know, abduction scenarios. But I think Mack showed pretty conclusively that these people had deep-seated memories, actual memories, of something that happened to them on some level. And what level that was is the mystery, because it's not on an everyday level because we don't see it happening in the street

all around us, obviously. When this had happened, it always happens when other people are switched off or no one else is around. It's not happening in a reality where you catch it on film, there's videos of it. Everybody has a video camera today.

If people are getting abducted off the streets with UFOs landing, someone have a video of it. I mean, come on. But it doesn't happen that way. So something else is going on. It's happening on some other level, whatever it is that defies, you know, recording or defies evidentiary, you know, procedures. It's subtle, it's subtle, Matt kept saying, you know, and whenever he was asked in interviews

us so, you know, what is this thing that's going to, it's subtle, it's subtle, we don't know, we don't understand, but that doesn't mean it's not real to the people who encountered it, and very real to them. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you can see the empathy with Mack. These aren't just, you know, patience or, you know, numbers to him. These were actual people who he felt genuinely had some sort of either mystical or consciousness experience or physical kidnapping aboard a ship.

So, yeah, it's really fascinating. And the entire abduction phenomenon, I think we've really only scratched the surface of what it could possibly be, Ralph, even Mack did as well. But I have to thank you for writing this book. I think it was needed and it was necessary for a name that is so big in the UFO field. It never got, he never got, you know, I feel the credit he deserved. So, yeah, this was the right time, I think, for this book to come out. Well, it took 16 years. Wow. There you go. I mean, I had a lot of material to go through.

It was not an easy book to write. I've written books before, but this was one of the toughest because just putting it, fitting all these pieces together, it was very complicated. And he was a complicated guy. I mean, he was not a simple character. He operated on many levels. But I think you put your finger on it when you said

he had the empathy that allowed people to come forward to him. And whereas some of them had gone to other therapists and psychiatrists before and were blown off or they didn't feel they got the proper attention, he communicated that willingness to hear their story and to fight for their right to be heard, to have their stories examined. And that took a lot of courage to be out there. with them and to be laughed at. And so that's why I do think he's a worthy, you know, someone to follow and study. Well, I mean, yeah, sometimes it's just someone there to listen. And our last listener, question, Ralph, this was our most popular one. If you're willing to discuss this at all,

I'm just going to read this here. There's been rumors that the July 2020 article you co-wrote with Leslie Kane was edited down drastically by the New York Times. I'll leave it to you to either say that's true or not. And that there was a lot more that you both wish to cover. Are you willing to share if that's true at all? And anything you wish had made it into that one, the off-world vehicle, as everyone has called it. It's probably time to stop calling people who believe in UFO's crackpots. After the recent revelation that there's actually a Pentagon task force looking into them, One astrophysicist who has worked for the Pentagon's UFO program since 2007 told the New York Times that he gave a classified briefing to a Defense Department agency

about retrievals from, quote, off-world vehicles not made on this earth. Are we on the brink of full disclosure about visitors from outer space? Well, there was a lot of speculation about that article before it ever appeared. People knew exactly what we were doing, what we were reporting, what we were holding back. They didn't know what they were talking about because, you know, they were not there. Look, I'm not going to discuss, you know,

the backstage at the New York Times and, you know, the editing process. I'll say that this was a very difficult story to report. It was a story on materials. And, you know, to what extent material may have been recovered from crashes are retrieved, you know, objects. It required a lot of backup and reporting.

As often happens with difficult subjects, a lot of material that is gathered by reporters, is gone over by editors and it's winnowed and, you know, editors and reporters together decide what is worthy of reporting, what can be backed up. So it moved the needle. It may not have been everything everybody wanted to hear. But it was what the New York Times could back up. And I'm happy with it.

I think there's room for more reporting. Certainly Leslie and I are continuing to, you know, poke around and to see what else we can do to move the story forward. There's a lot to be said still. It's not the end. But, you know, that's all I'll say about that. There was a lot of internet chatter about that story, which made our lives difficult because

every time we call somebody, you know, the word was already out that we were working on this. And so that didn't make it easy. And I actually said that. And afterwards, I said people made our lives more difficult because of the gossip. But it's a difficult field, and it has to be handled in a way that is responsible. and, you know, with proper sourcing, and you can't just put in everything you feel or think you know until you can, you know, can establish it, verify it.

So something's easier to report another. The first story was probably easier than stuff that was coming out now. So that's all I'll say about that. I'm happy to hear that, like you said, this isn't the end of the story. This is a subtle thing. It's a developing story, as it always is. So that's exciting. And also your most recent article, we got to touch on this right before we go, if you don't mind, your article about Robert Bigelow in his formation of the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies.

Right. Anything I want to share about that one? Well, Robert Bigelow was one of the supporters of John Mack. He financed a poll that became very central. to the study of abduction experiences to try to figure out how many people have been abducted. This is a very difficult thing to establish

because you can't just ask people have you ever been abducted. You have to find some trigger experiences that might indicate that. So anyway, Bigelow financed that. He's been very out front with financing research into paranormal experiences. You know, he bought Skinwalker Ranch,

which is, it was, is still a hotbed of very strange things. There was a movie and a book about it. George Knapp did a wonderful book and study of what was going on there. So Bigelow, again, is got to be commended. He's a scientist. He's got, you know, a module attached to the International Space Station.

He's, you know, he's very solidly founded, you know, founded in science and research. but he's got an interest in the paranormal. And now he's interested in what happens after death. And Mack was interested in that too. That was his last project, really, life after death. You know, what happens? And as I say at the end of the book,

there's some experiences people reported that they thought he came back to them after he died. And I said, look, I'm not vouching for that in the book, but these are stories that people are telling. And I think it's kind of interesting. that it became part of the mythology of John Mack that he reappeared afterwards to various people who were dealing with mediums and seances and stuff.

So Bigelow is interested in that. And, you know, near-death experiences are a well-known phenomenon. It's not just science fiction. It's real that people have encountered. counted strange things as they physically actually died. And then they were able to come back. Leslie Kane's series now on Netflix, you know, surviving death points that out.

So, you know, I said somewhere the other day that John Mack had two billionaires supporting him. He not only had Robert Bigelow, he had Lawrence Rockefeller, who was very eminent and very supportive. and Lawrence Rockefeller gave a lot of money for his, you know, research. And Lawrence Rockefeller was, again, very brave for a member of the Rockefeller family to support research in, you know, UFOs, alien abduction, very courageous. And he was also involved in conservation and a lot of other things. But he gave a lot of his money to research into strange areas.

And so I said, John Mac had too. billionaires. It'd be nice to have one. Oh, you're right. A boy can dream, right, girls, maybe someday. But he attracted that support of people. And he, you know, he, people reached out to him because they trusted him. Absolutely.

And I think the work speaks for itself. He clearly not only had a passion like you have in your, your subtitle, but he had an understanding and a care for these people who are going through this. Again, I always say this topic, these issues with UAP, UFOs, alien abductions, they say more about us than I think they say about the phenomena itself or what we're dealing with. That mirror seems to always come back to us as human beings and how we perceive it. So I really do think that Mac was onto something.

And now it's up to the next generation to build off. that and they now have this amazing book to do that. But of course, the most important question, Ralph, before we go, where can we find the book and where can we find everything you're up to? Well, it's officially being published March 15th, but it's already making its way out. Amazon has it, Barnes & Noble is taking orders, bookstores. We're going to be making appearances at bookstores. Leslie Kane and I are doing a virtual. Everything is virtual today. So it's a virtual appearance at Shakespeare and Company on Lexington Avenue in Manhattan. So they all have the book stocked. So Dan Aykroyd, by the way, who gave me a nice blur. He and I had doing an event at a bookstore in

L.A. on St. Patrick's Day, Dan Aykroyd is a, he wrote a book. He actually wrote the forward to his grandfather's book about ghosts. So he doesn't just do busting. He actually has stories about ghosts in his family. And he was very supportive of my book. And so Dan Aykroyd and I are going to do an event. But the book, it's easy to find out. If stores don't have it already, they're shipping it. And Amazon is already taken up people have ordered it. They've already received it. Of course, on Kindle, it's available instantly for people who can't possibly wait to have it, you know, access it.

So it's available already. Awesome. And again, you know, you're the guy who's tackled everything from the mafia to, you know, Nazi war criminals and everything in between. And now you have abductions on that list, Ralph. And I think it's awesome, man. So again, thank you for the book and thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you, Ryan.

Real pleasure. Thank you. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app.

Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com slash special offer. Terms apply. Somewhere in the skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network. UFOs seem to be invading both our skies and our news outlets like never before, and more people are starting to look up and are wondering. who or what might be out there. In 2016, Ryan Sprague introduced the world to countless UFO

encounters that had never been made public before. And now, in the second edition of his book, he revisits these events and introduces brand new UFO cases, in somewhere in the skies, a human approach to the UFO phenomenon. How have these events changed the lives of those involved? And what might it tell us about the phenomenon? With in-depth follow-ups, brand-new chapters, and detailed testimony from credible witnesses and insight from those in the psychological, academic, and scientific fields. Somewhere in the Skies, a human approach to the UFO phenomenon, weaves together a story of stories, attempting to get to the heart of these mysteries one experience at a time.

Available now on Amazon in both paperback and ebook. To learn more, visit somewhere in the skies.com. This was the first time I ever consciously seen those things. I mean, when I opened up my eyes before I threw that pillow, this thing was standing at the foot of my... Do you know what that's? Well, we put locks on our doors to keep outsideers from coming in. How did that thing get in my apartment? And it was standing there, just standing there staring at me.

I was horrible. This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan's bread. Despite the controversial nature of the UFO phenomenon as a whole, there's one sibling to its anatomatic family that remains the black sheep in the corner. Alien abduction. From the strikingly human story of Whitley Streeper in upstate New York to the mysterious case of Travis Walton in the backwoods of Arizona, abductions have made headlines around the world.

Most shrug abduction allegations off with a skeptical shoulder, chalking it up to sleep paralysis, concocted hoaxes, hypnagogic hallucinations, and suppressed memories of childhood trauma. But one man dared to take the phenomenon to heart, with a compassion, unlike most. That man was Bud Hopkins. Well, the first thing I like today is I have been dealing with the phenomenon for a long time, and I know that when people come back from an abduction experience, very often what they remember is not exactly what happened.

It's as if their memories have been altered, played with. with what not through some sort of hypnotic means. We don't know what happens. And we know that they have been told certain things sometimes, which is obviously not true, and there's a certain degree of deception. Hopkins encountered many abduction stories that may be explainable as a result of the aforementioned reasons, but some would stick with him as genuine and deeply complex. And in the case of one woman in New York City,

the abduction account would change both her life and that of Hopkins forever. Bud Hopkins was coming off the heels of two very successful books concerning his hypnotic regression work with individuals spanning the globe who claimed to have been abducted by beings from other worlds. Missing Time, the publication that would ultimately revolutionize the abduction phenomenon had instantly become an international sensation. Soon after, he released his second book on the abduction topic. Intruders, The Incredible Visitations at Copley World.

But in his second book, Hopkins focused more in depth on an individual case concerning Kathy Davis, a multiple abductee who would recall her frightening encounters with small beings, who would literally float her out of her bedroom window, take her aboard their craft, an experiment on her. It all began with this photograph. After the publication of his first book on UFO research called Missing, Bud received this picture from Kathy Davis of Indianapolis. Kathy claimed that the circle and strip of dead grass had appeared in her yard after she had seen a UFO in the area,

and she wondered if the damage had been caused by a UFO taking off and landing. Oddly, she also mentioned that both she and her mother had similar scars, and neither of them could remember the causes. Her curiosity opened a floodgate of revelations. Under hypnosis, Kathy recalled not just the terrifying events of the night she mentioned, which culminated with her abduction, but several other close encounter. that had occurred throughout her life. At the age of seven,

she had apparently become an unwilling participant in a long-term genetic experiment. Kathy remembered none of this consciously. Hypnosis revealed that a sample of flesh had been removed from her leg during that first abduction by an alien creature she described as having a large head with huge black eyes.

Now, if Kathy were the only person describing these encounters, one would be inclined as she did herself to doubt her sanity. But these drawings have been done by dozens of different people from various locations claiming similar experiences. Now, over the course of many hypnotic sessions, the purpose of these abductions became clear. Kathy had an over-removed from her body and was eventually shown a hybrid child, apparently part human, part alien. She was told that she was the mother, but could not keep the child.

Obviously, this revelation, whether real or imagined, was devastating to Kathy. Kathy's story had a huge impact on others who claimed similar experiences, but none more than that of Linda Napolitano. Napolitano had previously been working with Hopkins on hypnotic regression sessions. She had written Hopkins a letter, stating that she had an implant put into her nasal cavity during one of her abductions. The cavity was examined by a physician who insisted that she must have undergone some sort of surgery when she was younger. Napolitano never remembered ever having such surgery, an assertion confirmed by her mother shortly after.

Hopkins, a New York City resident, lived only miles from Napolitano. So he decided he would work with her directly, having her attend his abduction support group meetings and checking in with her every now and again. But it was Napolitano who would contact him next, and the story she had to tell would ignite a flame that still remains burning today. It was in the late morning of November 30, 1989, that Napolitano called Hopkins in a daze and sounded like she was in complete shock. She went on to tell him that she had been abducted earlier that morning. A few days later, she went under regressive hypnosis with Hopkins, and details about the abduction slowly began to trickle in.

She remembered literally floating out of her bed and being carried through a solid window of her 12th floor apartment. in Lower Manhattan. Colors of blue and white enveloped her eyes as she ascended into a craft that was hovering over her apartment building. Three small beings accompanied her up to the craft. The beings then began swiftly partaking in what seemed to be a protocol of examinations. She was returned to her bed sometime later. I tried to wake my husband. I still closed and there was no response from my husband.

and that's when I did open my eyes and I looked straight ahead. And there was this thing, this creature, standing at the foot of my bed. And it was the first time I had ever seen that consciously. I was awake. I hadn't gone to sleep yet. I was saying my prayers. And so by this time my legs were numb. And I sat up in bed dragging my heavy legs with me.

turned up behind me and threw a pillow, big pillow that I made. You would think that I stuffed them or rock was heavy. And I hit him too, that creature. And my next conscious memory, fragmented memory, was seeing white fabric flow up and over my eyes and then down again. And then I felt something, perhaps little fists or maybe an instrument, pounding on my back. And that was all I remembered. And then my next conscious memory was that of falling into my bed. I could have fallen anywhere from two inches up or two feet up or whatever, but I was conscious and I felt myself falling to bed.

Time progressed and Hopkins continued to dig deeper into the regression sessions. He was looking for something solid that could help put Napolitano at ease or bring some sort of closure to her. Then, a letter arrived in Hopkins mailbox that would break the case wide open and confirmed that not only did Napolitano have a genuine and physical experience, but there had in fact been witnesses to the entire event. It wasn't until February of the following year that Hopkins received a shocking letter regarding Napolitano's abduction.

In reading it, Hopkins was convinced that he was getting closer to some sort of of answer to the abduction phenomenon. But first, he had to figure out how to approach Napolitano about the letter. For so long, she had tried to convince herself that it was some sort of continuous nightmare or hallucination. But the story Napolitano told under regression matched so strikingly with this letter that Hopkins had no other choice but to share the letter with her. The letter was reportedly written by two New York police officers under the assumed names of Richard and Dan, who were working undercover on the night of the event. They sat in their car under FDR Drive in Manhattan and watched as a large red object with green lights wrapped around its cylindrical exterior, hovered in the dark sky. They sat in the car terrified, and soon they saw the figure of a woman in a nightgown, crouched in the feet.

position, floating in mid-air. Three small beings surrounded her in a triangular fashion as they ascended into the craft. The craft then headed towards the Brooklyn Bridge and disappeared out of sight. The officers couldn't process what they had just seen and sat there, dumbfounded, not quite sure how to proceed. They were deeply concerned about the whereabouts of this woman and wanted nothing more than to know that she was not only safe, but alive. Hopkins confronted Nabolitano about the letter and warned her that the officers were planning a visit to her apartment. They had, in fact, remembered the exact location of her apartment building, and even the floor she was mysteriously taken from.

They were only two blocks away, and they were sitting under the FDR drive in their car, and they used binoculars, and that's how they identified. me because they realized they knew what building and window that I came out of. It was only a few days later that Napolitano phoned Hopkins, confirming that the men had visited her and that it was a strange interaction indeed. The meeting was emotional on both ends. Meeting with each other confirmed that something impossible had been witnessed and experienced in real time, and that Napolitano was physically taken by something.

possibly extraterrestrial. Richard seemed a bit more relieved, although Dan was clearly distraught and bluntly asked Napolitano, quote, how did you do it? How did you make it happen? End quote. Napolitano was completely taken back by his questioning, defending herself by explaining that the entire event occurred against her will. Dan just didn't seem to accept that she hadn't had a part in the events that took place that night. Napolitano requested that the men, meet with Hopkins to further the investigation of her experience. The men immediately said they wish not to meet in person and said they would contact Hopkins

via phone. After more conversation, the officers left her apartment. Weeks later, Hopkins received a phone call from Richard, which threw a new curveball into the case. Richard admitted that he and Dan were in fact not members of the police department, but were hired security officers who were escorting a client to a helicopter pad in Lower Manhattan that night. This client was also a witness to the events. There was now a third person involved who Hopkins hoped to speak with, although doing so would prove difficult, because the third person was a prominent figure in the political world. It would be some time before the name of this individual was leaked to the public. Hopkins eventually was

able to meet with the man who confirmed this story. And after close deduction by many researchers and investigators, the name of the individual was divulged as Javier Perez de Quaylor. Hi, Javier Perez de Quaylor, solemn is to exercise in all loyalty, discretion, and conscience. The functions entrusted to me as Secretary General of the United Nations. The identity of this witness definitely heightened the stakes of the case immensely, but nothing would heighten them more than the actions Dan and Richard would soon take. Although Napolitano had been kidnapped by what seemed to be beings from another world, it was a kidnapping by humans that would traumatize her even worse.

On October 15, 1991, Napolitano was walking the streets near the South Street Seaport in Lower Manhattan. When she spotted Dan jogging in the area, they both came to a complete halt. And suddenly, Dan grabbed her and forced her into his car, all the time spouting incoherent assertions that Napolitano was what he referred to as a half-breed, and that she belonged to him. Clearly, Dan had been affected dramatically by the original event, and he was having a complete mental breakdown. Dan began driving, and Napolitano slowly calmed herself down and tried to talk with Dan in a civilized manner, hoping that he was having a complete mental breakdown. Dan began driving, and Napolitano slowly calmed herself down and tried to talk with Dan in a civilized manner, hoping that he would let her go. But Dan had different plans. They drove quietly to Long Island, where Dan would bring her to a beach house near the water.

He presented her with a white nightgown and demanded she put it on. After a debate and concerned for her life, Napolitano reluctantly put it on over her clothes. Seeing Napolitano in the white nightgown was confirmation to Dan, that it was indeed Napolitano that he had seen floating out of the window that night. As Dan fiddled with a camera to take pictures of her, Napolitano was able to escape. A few photos were taken by Dan of her running away from the beach house. Dan caught up to her and was able to capture her again. This strange behavior of Dan was interrupted when Richard finally arrived, putting things into perspective.

He drove Napolitano home and apologized profusely for Dan's odd behavior. Why Napolitano didn't report the incident to the police was beyond comprehension. One can assert that perhaps she felt threatened, having discovered that these men were working with some sort of intelligence agency, and that the police would do very little to help her. Or perhaps she still had hope that some sort of conclusion was inevitable, thus proving that this was all seemingly connected, and all, for a reason. Whatever that reason, no one would ever discover. Some time later, Dan sent Napolitano a letter,

stating that he was in a mental institution and that he was indeed in love with Napolitano. As if things weren't hard enough for her, she now had a rogue agent of an intelligence agency professing his love, for what he claimed was an alien human hybrid. Napolitano couldn't catch a break. Until she discovered, that Javier Perez de Quollar wasn't just a witness of her event, but may have been an abductee himself. Napolitano remembers that after her abduction that night, she was returned to her bed. Her husband lay asleep completely oblivious to the situation. Napolitano would later admit that her husband laid so still that he appeared to be dead. Shortly after the abduction, she went into her son's room, and the same was true for him.

He laid there with small breaths, slowly escaping his body. Napolitano put a mirror under his nose just to make sure he was in fact breathing. After confronting her son about the incident, he said that he remembered being comforted by a man while his mother was being examined during the abduction. Hopkins would show over 20 different photos of different men to the boy, and without hesitation, he identified the mysterious man is Javier Perez. Hopkins now believed that this event didn't just involve the abduction of Napolitano, but perhaps multi-abductees.

He confronted Javier Perez about this theory, and he would neither confirm nor deny the accusation that he was somehow involved or part of the abduction. That same year, Hopkins received another letter from a retired telephone operator, claiming to have been on the bridge on the morning of Napolitano's abduction. She requested anonymity by Hopkins and... and was given the pseudonym, Janet Kimball. Kimball claimed to have been driving on the Brooklyn Bridge when her car stalled and the lights went out.

I'm standing at exactly the spot where this very strange event was seen at 3 a.m., really, on November 30th, 1989. A woman was driving from Brooklyn to New York, right down here in the outer lane. Her car engine died. The lights went out. and she looked over to this building, the one in the distance was a little pointed roof, and at that point she saw a burst of light as a UFO hovering only a few feet above it, turned on all of its lights, and then from a window below, small ball-like figures rolled out, they unrolled in the bright light, and there was a woman in the middle with a long wide night down, and two small figures below her and one above her.

And the figures floated up into the UFO, and then the UFO changed its lights, zoomed out across the river, and across the bridge it disappeared. And the woman's car lights and engines started back up again. But this is the way it started for her that night. Kimball went on to write that she would never return to New York City again after this experience. She felt compelled to look up Hopkins in the phone book

after one of her family members had mentioned his work in abduction research. With the letter she sent him, she included a drawing of what she had witnessed that night. The drawing matched the stories of Napolitano, Richard, Dan, and Javier Perez down to the color of the craft, and the fetal position Napolitano seemed to be stuck in as she disappeared into the craft. After Kimball came forward, other witnesses began trickling in. Hopkins was both excited and completely overwhelmed at this. point. With a number of claims, the accusations against Napolitano and the sheer weight of this event happening, he found it very challenging to decide how to move forward with the case. He decided

that there was really only one option, and that was to bring the entire case to the forefront and let the public decide. This decision would become his third book. It was titled Witnessed the True Story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO Abductions. It was released in 19. The book would bring the case to a wider audience and cement Hopkins as the prominent researcher in a field that he had ultimately created. The Brooklyn Bridge abduction case is hard to swallow at first glance. Obviously. It almost plays out like a science fiction novel. In fact, some investigators have gone so far as to claim that Napolitano borrowed the story from a book entitled Night Eyes, written by science fiction writer Garfield Reeves Stevens.

The book bore striking resemblances to Napolitano's story. It was also published in April 1989, a few months before her supposed abduction. But even if she had fraudulently taken the story as her own, how would that explain the multiple witnesses? Again, one could make a bold theory that it was all a giant hoax perpetuated by Napolitano, Richard Dan Javier and even Hopkins himself.

While this seems like a grand conspiracy theory, crazier things have happened in the UFO field, and the skeptical inquiry in Napoleon's case has to be acknowledged, for several reasons. The first would have to be the entire affair with Richard and Dan. The events with them seem ripped directly out of some sort of thriller or even soap opera. And the fact that they never agreed,

to meet with Hopkins in person is cause for concern. Today, the Linda Cortill case website claims that there have been 23 witnesses to the events that night. A staggering amount of people who can't fully be accounted for or identified. And skeptics continue to claim many loopholes to the story, arguing that many details of the case could be too good to be true. The apartment block that Cortille lived on was a stone's throw from the active loading dock of the New York Post.

Not a single worker on duty that shift reported anything unusual at the time. Now, that could be due to their own schedule at the time in question. A more telling fact that counts against this abduction taking place could surround Quedlar and his limousine. Security personnel insists that transporting a dignitary such as the Secretary General of the U.N. is an enormous logistical process. security teams often prepare high-ranking officials travel well in advance. A huge part of this is the timetables given.

If the car that is transporting the Secretary General is even a few seconds behind schedule, then UN forces would have to move in and determine what, if any, action is required. Checkpoints are also set up and used to help determine whether or not lateness is an issue. So one really has to wonder, how were these men out there? there at 3 a.m. in the morning, and there was no contingency plan set in motion when all of this seemed to have occurred. So these observations definitely leave room for debate, as is the case with any UFO event, especially when it comes to the abduction phenomenon. And while a large part of me remains skeptical of this case, I felt it only appropriate and fair to hear the other

side. And to do that, I turned to someone who had a direct connection to the case, having assisted Bud Hopkins on countless cases. And this one in particular, we're now going to hear from UFO researcher, author, and my mentor, Peter Robbins. I wanted to hear his thoughts on the case and his personal experiences during this lengthy, extraordinary, and highly controversial investigation. Peter, thank you so much for joining me today. Glad to be back on the show. So for the past 20 minutes or so, I've sort of gone through a brief overview of the Linda Cortiel case, a pseudonym, I might add. And I wanted to get your personal thoughts on this, Peter.

You know, having a close connection to both Bud Hopkins and Linda, I thought no one better to come on and give their personal thoughts about the controversy behind this very hotly debated case out of New York City. So I guess I'll sort of let you take it from here. What is your connection to this case? And what are your overall thoughts on all of this? As certainly some of your listeners know, for many years, I had a good friend named Bud Hopkins. And for many of the 35 years that we were friends, I worked as his assistant. I guess a little backstory is appropriate here. Bud and I met in 1976.

I had gotten involved, obsessed with the subject of UFOs the year before. And the following year read an article, a case investigation in the village voice of all things. A newspaper, legendary New York publication, no longer in print now, but a weekly that never dealt in UFOs. and saw the headline walking by a newsstand, bought it, read it, thought it was about the best investigative work I had read in the year that I had been seeking out information and trying to learn more about the phenomena. The New York art world is a fairly small place in that I remembered the name Bud Hopkins, Bud with 2Ds, because he had been part of a group show that I had seen as a young painter in New York. And I wondered if it was the same person who had written this brilliant analysis and investigation of a case that the following year, Mufon, awarded the distinction of being the best case of the year, that of George O'Barsky. Anyway, to cut to the chase, I cold called him out of the New York phone book, told him I was an artist interested in the subject, that my sister seemed to have had an experience. We had had a siting together, invited me over for coffee, and we had coffee for the next 35 years.

I worked as Bud's assistant throughout the six years that he investigated what first became known as the Linda case and grew quite close to Linda, who I still consider a good friend. I was there pretty much every step of the way as Bud went into detective mode. And I should say here, you know, we bandy about names and cases and investigations in this field. But unless you've really read case investigations by individuals, it's very easy to just, you know, hear bits and pieces form an opinion based on often not a lot of material. And, you know, then defend that opinion because it's your opinion. and hey, I would have to say in the more than 40 years that I've been involved in this subject, that six-year-long investigation, which I assisted in and received a lovely credit for in the book, year after year, was by far the most complex, the most fascinating, in many ways the most chilling, and most, as human,

a story as imaginable, but with so many extraordinary aspects that the logical mind is compelled to dismiss it as collectively too far out or too weird or too impossible. And I would say at whatever point we leave off on this discussion, listeners should remember one thing, which is the book that came out of this, a book called Witnessed, the true story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO abductions is a must read for any serious investigator or student of the subject. You have a chance to see one of the best people in the field ever conduct a years-long investigation with the skill, objectivity, knowledge, compassion, chutzpah, as you've ever experienced in a true story. I was there working with Bud in one of my capacities at the time was I responded to the mail he received. We're going back now to 1989. And this is two years after Bud had published intruders, a huge international bestseller. Certainly by UFO standards, I don't know how many languages it came out in over the years.

A seminal investigation. And that, of course, followed his... first book, Missing Time, which came out in 81. People wrote to him from all over the world, and this is all pre-digital. And Bud was very old school and insisted that literally every letter be responded to, even with a brief note on our stationery, that I signed, or in some cases he did. And he had worked out a simple code for me to follow of a, um, symbols to put on the outside of an envelope when I had given him the day's mail after reviewing it. From, you know, a fan letter to X number of stars that this sounded very compelling and it should be followed up on.

Should I do it? Should he do it? And I read this letter from this woman named Linda. Her pseudonym is Cortille. It's another last name. Italian American, who lived in New York City your whole life, talking about concerns that she had. I was there when she first visited, demure, polite, very old-fashioned in many respects,

still lived in the same neighborhood down by the Brooklyn Bridge that she had grown up in. And in so many cases, a very regular person of a certain archetype. Catholic, went to church regularly, I expect still does. And the investigation commenced with interviews and ultimately the experience that led her to contact Bud that had happened to her in late November of 1989. When you asked me to come on the show and talk about this a couple of days ago, I thought, sure, I'm familiar with the case and, well, more familiar than most people are. But I realized when I was asked about it a month or so ago in passing on another show, that I'd gotten a

date wrong. And when you work from memory, things like that are bound to happen. So I wanted to just reread parts of witnessed and go through notes I had at the time, monographs that Bud had written on it. And as things developed, the central event became something that obsessed us both, that on the night in question, Linda, who had a lifetime of experiences as classic abductee experiences, was taken from her bedroom on the 12th floors, as I recall of her apartment, in her nightgown, cold weather out, floated through the plate glass window of their bedroom, her and her husband, who as always remained sleeping as is the way it is. Couples are separated at moments like this and floated up into a large, glowing, circular

shape hanging just above her building. What made this case, to use the dispassionate word, very different than any of her previous experiences, was that it was not only witnessed, but multiply witnessed, even though it happened at about three in the morning. This is Manhattan. As you know, as a adopted Manhattanite, a lot of people work through the night. and what followed after Bud decided to publish a monograph on it and word got out about this particular event, letters started coming in from decidedly different individuals with different addresses, with different handwritings, with different postal cancellations, all of them describing literally the identical phenomenon. Many people's first reactions were, oh, my God, they're making a movie. How are they doing this? People seeing what they were seeing from different angles around Lower Manhattan.

One memorable witness, a woman who was returning from a friend's retirement party, observed, as a number of people did, this large glowing shape from the Brooklyn Bridge, and observed these shapes going up into the disk. It moved away from the building, headed toward the East River, and dived into the East River. To emerge further out on Long Island, at some discernible time later, with three other individuals on board as well, who witnessed Linda on the beach talking about something that kind of comes up fairly often with abductees, a message basically about the destruction of the environment and the idea that we needed to clean up our act.

It's generally interpreted as a logical message from these other intelligences to take care of our planet. In this case, that seemed to be more opposed. Linda, who is a smoker and eats meat and is not particularly caught up in environmental causes, was, I don't even know the right language controlled to do this in front of these three individuals, two of them security, for the third individual, who we did not discuss their position or their name, alluded to certain things in the book, but in fact was a man named Perez de Quayor, who at the time was the Secretary General of the United Nations. And along with security people, was downtown at that time for reasons we can only guess at.

And we were left to assume that this was to take a person who dealt regularly with world leaders, give them this experience, and perhaps I'm extrapolating here, the hope being that they might ultimately speak out about it. Perez de Quayar never did, but the investigation, and this again is almost five years, more than five years after Linda presented herself to Bud, Bud and De Quayar met in the the IP lounge at O'Hare Airport in Chicago, arranged by a reporter who had an appointment to do an interview with De Quayar, was aware of this story, a colleague of Bud's, and essentially set up this opportunity for Hopkins to speak with the Secretary General and to present him with information that we sense that he would appreciate. I remember very well how excited Bud was

and the description of the event because I was working in the office when he returned from, it was either JFK or Newark having come back from Chicago that afternoon. There are so many tangents on this. A pattern that we observed that came up very strong in this case was that one of the security people was somebody who Linda had a pre-existing relationship with. and not one in the normal sense. She and this individual, Richard, his real name, were brought together repeatedly as children and observed.

And they both remembered the quirkier, finer points of being respectively like five and seven years old and being brought together repeatedly in childhood and adolescence. I would assume to be observed and perhaps even, set up or put pieces in place that would later be played out. The other security person for the secretary, Dan, was incredibly freaked out by all this. These were career for part of their career, State Department service personnel, United Nations, an NYPD connection.

and trying to put oneself in the place of a regular person in an extraordinary job, going through this experience under these circumstances, we feel led to Dan's having a profound breakdown and being removed from the situation. Richard and Bud began to correspond for quite some time before they would meet with him. Dan literally kidnapped Linda and interrogated her because he was so freaked out and wanted answers that she could not give him. At this point, let me ask you if you have any particular questions that are coming up for you, because again, the tangents go off here, bearing in mind this was a six-year-long investigation. And a very detailed book as well. I mean, we did, I did go over the Richard and Dan incidents, you know, the kidnapping, you know, the breakdown, the correspondence with Bud.

So I guess, you know, playing off the Richard and Dan thing a little, Peter, now I guess I was unclear in my research of this case, had Bud actually met face to face with these two individuals. I know there were, you know, taped audio that they had sent to Bud at one point. there were letters exchange. Had he ever met Richard and Dan face-to-face, would be my first question. Boy, I'm trying to remember now. I think he did meet with Richard ultimately. Okay. But you know, I'm not positive.

I'd have to double-check that. Yeah, that would be my only question in terms of the discrepancy with the Richard and Dan affair, which, again, is, like you said, is so it can go many different ways. It plays out almost like a thriller or soap opera, which is a lot of the, I guess, a lot of the, you know, the more skeptical of those with this case think that. You know, this story seems too good to be true, you know. All of these things happened all throughout the investigation. But again, like you said, we weren't there when any of this happened. So we cannot say for sure what happened, what did not.

In terms of that, I guess my next question for you would be, in terms of Javier, you said that Bud did meet with him and that in the research I did, I came up with Javier neither confirming or denying any of this story. Now, do you have any more insight on what exactly they talked about and what Javier had to say in terms of all this? Oh yeah, and again, this is one of the reasons why if I'm on a show and somebody asked me to talk about a case, either that I have an opinion on or was involved in, I will do it and we'll move on. This is one of those rare instances where I would say to anybody listening, who has questions or whose eyebrows are going up or rubbing their chin rhetorically, read this book. it's impossible for me to do it any justice, but I'm getting away from your question.

And I think the best way to answer that is to take us back to that time in Bud's words. No, first, De Quayar's wife was there and at times within earshot. Bud was there with a reporter, and this was prearranged. the material that he gave to the secretary was acknowledged essentially with a nod. But let me jump right into the text here of Bud writing about this and beginning when he got home that afternoon. This is not something that he was reflecting on years later. Walking slightly behind my reporter friend, so as not to be immediately seen by the third man, I entered the airline's VIP lounge, a quiet place with deep, luxurious seating, and discreet bar.

A dozen or so people waited for their connecting flights, and I immediately spotted the third man sitting with his wife reading. My nervousness abated somewhat when I saw no sign of a security detail. Walking over, the reporter introduced himself and then said, this is my friend Bud Hopkins, a colleague from New York. I looked at the third man, whose passive, phlegogenic, expression. impression registered no change. He asked no questions about me, who I was or why I was there, and turned to the reporter, who began talking to him about finding a more private place for the proposed interview. Nervously, I handed the third man my bulging package. Sir, this is some material, I think you'll find interesting, I told him. With the warnings about not taking packages from

strangers fresh in my memory, and with the awareness that the third man must have been thoroughly briefed by previous security details about the danger of hidden explosives and letter bombs. I watched to see what he did with my suspicious-looking parcel. Without a break, he continued speaking with a reporter, while on obtrusively on zipping a small carry-on suitcase, he quickly tucked the package inside and closed the case. Not a word was directed at me, not a question about the package. Moving on here, the frustrated reporter continued to press the issue, asking if he ever remembered seeing anything strange late at night in the area. And again, the third man paused and

thought for a moment, saying softly that maybe one of his bodyguards might have seen something a light years ago, but didn't remember anything now. I'm sorry I can't help you, he said. You could try to contact some of my bodyguards. Let's see. I believe one of them had a Russian name. What was that name? Throughout, his responses had been gentle, extremely unruffled, and very low key. What was missing was any sense of surprise or anger when he saw that his name had appeared in print in such a context. He did not say, how did my name get mixed up with this? Well, this is ridiculous. Or who wrote this piece anyway? The response is one would logically expect a well-known person, protective of his reputation to make. It continues on, but Hopkins' skills

as a human observer and deductibility is, for me or legend. And while, you know, it's so many memories come up, the letters that we received were very poignant, all of them hungry to find out what in the name of God they had seen. None of them wanting attention, none of them wanting money, none of them wanting anything but information. Also, as trained artists, Bud was a very well-known painter in New York, I was an inspiring one. We received drawings in at least half of these letters, most of them by untrained artists. And there's something very poignant, I think you'll agree, about witness-related drawings from regular folks. They have not studied art, but they have such intensity,

and high intention. And in this case, there was a certain lighting sequence and a specific quirk to the shape. And son of a gun, if all of these different drawings, didn't capture it to some degree, again, seen from different angles, different positions, different locations. I still find this, again, to be the most memorable UFO case I've ever worked.

And that includes Rendlesham in terms of the hyper-specifics of the event. And for me, the ethics, if you will, the honesty, the character of the central individual involved. Linda is not, you know, a Machiavellian sophisticate. She graduated from high school. Got married, had two sons. not surprisingly, the impact of these events extended into her family. If this brief conversation that we're having, although I'm doing most of the conversing, produces any result for your readers, I ask you again in a way that I normally would not,

if you're interested in this subject, if you find this challenging or too challenging, or want to know more about it, or see the work of a conversation. crack investigator, a world-class investigator, sticking to an important story year after year. And I have to laugh sometimes because I think if Hopkins had gone into law enforcement instead of the arts, Lord help the criminals of this world. Had he been a New York City police detective, he would have had a very long list of convictions and, I'm sure, commendations. Anyway, my point just being, you don't have to go out and spend money on a collectible book. You can find paperback copies online for a couple of bucks.

The book is Witness, The True Story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO abduction by Bud Hopkins. Perfect. Peter, I can't thank you enough for giving us that insider's perspective on all this. Like you said, it's easy for one to, you know, in passing, read an article about this case. You know, my whole involvement with covering this case was in a brief article I'd written many, many years ago for Open Minds magazine. You know, as a young naive researcher, I can attest that I did my research, but without really going deep, without having read the entire book, I had no, you know, right to cast judgment on the case on either end of it. So to have someone like yourself who is directly involved with the prime investigator on the case, and even the person who was involved, is refreshing and invigorating.

And again, I'm so happy we were able to get your side of this story. And like you said, for anyone who really wants to look into it on either end of the skeptical or believer end of it, read the book. So again, I have to thank you for cover. covering this with us today. Glad too, my friend. My thanks to Peter Robbins for taking the time to reflect on this case. It certainly opened my eyes on the legitimacy of Linda's claims

and the diligence Bud Hopkins showed in his thorough investigation of the incredible accounts. And this is where I land on this entire event. Like so many other cases that we've covered here on somewhere in the skies, and so many others that continue to come across my digital desk, these are accounts, stories. irrefutable evidence or evidence in general is predominantly sparse. And in the case of Hopkins and his book based on this case,

it was an extraordinary story that defied logical explanation. And while it was fascinating and well told, it was, as so often these cases are, open to extreme interpretation and scrutiny. We're asked to accept the account as is, based on the testimony of some of the participants. As a result of this, I remain on the fence. For all I know, the Linda Napolitano case might have gone down the way that Hopkins said it did. I wasn't in the room when Peter Robbins read Linda's letters and passed them on to bud.

I wasn't in the room when Hopkins put Linda under hypnotic regression to retrieve possible memories of the event. And I wasn't there on the Brooklyn Bridge to watch as a woman ascended into a craft and disappeared out of sight. No matter where you land on this case, I urge you, as Peter Robbins did, to read the book witnessed by Bud Hopkins, remain open-minded, but also remain on guard, because as Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Welcome to Beyond the Fray Publishing, where we take you beyond the ordinary to the extraordinary. We are a traditional publishing house that represents dozens of prestigious authors, researchers, content creators and influences, all of whom share one passion, exploring the unknown from the mysteries of the paranormal. The legends of cryptids, the enigma of unidentified aerial phenomena to gripping true crime stories and ancient mysteries.

Our vast catalogue of non-fiction books dives deep into subjects that captivate the imagination. Our esteemed authors are not only storytellers, but researchers and experts in their fields, providing readers with fascinating insights and compelling investigations. With a dedicated community of readers, our books inspire, inform, and take you on journeys through the unexplained that will challenge what you know and expand, what you believe. At Beyond the Fray, we believe that every mystery deserves to be explored. So whether you're fascinated by the paranormal, intrigued by ancient civilizations, or drawn to the mysteries of the universe, we have the book that will take you on that journey.

Beyond the Fray Publishing, our books take you beyond. The authenticity of UFO cases is usually judged by the credibility of both the witnesses and those who investigate the case. This is no different when it comes to the highly controversial topic of alien abductions. And this was certainly the case for a series of events that happened to three women from Stanford, Kentucky, in 1976. And it all started with a birthday party. This is the abduction of the Stanford 3 This is somewhere in the skies With Ryan Sprague

Choice hotels get you more of what you value Here's a little tune to help you remember Same drive different day Don't you wish you were getting away Pack your bags and come on through Texas Ohio, Alaska We're up there too Comfort Inn

It's calling your name Save on the stay Oh And free waffles are yours to claim Well I hope you like my little song Book Direct at Storiesvilletells.com It was January 6th,

19796 It was Mona Stafford's 36th birthday She was joined by her best friends Louise Smith And Elaine Thomas To celebrate the event And just have a friendly dinner together

The three friends took their dinner plans to the Redwood Restaurant, which was located south of Lancaster, Kentucky, 35 miles from their hometown of Liberty, Kentucky. As the three finished their dinner, they started what they thought would be a nice, pleasant drive back to their homes. Leaving the Redwood Restaurant at 11.15 p.m., the three women were in a jovial mood. As Louise Smith sat behind the wheel of her 1967 Chevy Nova. None of the women had anything to drink that night of the alcoholic persuasion.

Leaving Stanford and heading for Houstonville on Highway 78, the three women suddenly saw a bright red object in the clear night sky. Whatever this object was, frightened Mona, who thought it might have been an airplane on fire and heading in for a crash landing. As the glowing object came closer, Smith lost control of the automobile.

The little Chevy was now going 85 miles per hour, a speed never traveled by Smith before. In a panic, she cried out, I can't hold the car on the road. Mona reached over and tried to help her, thinking that something was wrong with the steering wheel. But she couldn't control it either. The car continued its high rate of speed without deviation. Later, Luis would state, quote, My foot wasn't even on the gas pedal. Suddenly, the unknown object was very close to the car.

It followed from behind for a short time, then flipped on its end, coming extremely close to the driver's side. All three women would later recall the same thing. What they were looking at, was an enormous metallic disc-shaped object with a dome on top and a ring of red lights around its midsection. The women all saw it close enough to see a yellow blinking light on its underbelly. This metallic disc-shaped object hung over the driver's side of the car for a time

before it moved ahead of it on the highway. As it did, a bluish-white light shot into the car, lighting up the entire interior of the vehicle. Later, Mrs. Smith would describe the inside of their car as being filled with a, quote, haze-like air, sort of like a fog. In mere seconds, all three women suffered from a burning sensation so strong that they cannot open their eyes because of how truly bright it was. The last thing in the memory of Smith, Stafford, and Thomas was being backed into a pasture entrance in a crazy manner. The entry was flanked on both sides by an old stone wall. One hour and 20 minutes later, the three found themselves back in the little Chevy, again driving towards Liberty.

They were shaken and tense with exposed areas of flesh, painful from the burns. The three frightened women finally arrived at Mrs. Smith's home, and when they entered, they noticed that the clock in the kitchen showed 1.20 a.m., confirming the trip of 35 miles had taken just over two hours. Normally, it took about 45 minutes. They immediately went to the house of their neighbor, Lowell Lee, who confirmed that the time truly was 120 a.m. Confused as to what to do next, the women called the police station. The next day, they also phoned the Navy recruiting station. Neither of the two calls afforded them any aid. The Navy station did give some of the details of the event to a Lexington TV station, and not soon after, the story quickly reached the press and was given headline status.

The Mutual UFO Network, or Mufon investigator, Jerry Black, heard the story of the event and immediately went to work to gain some more details. Black called the three women and asked for an interview, but Smith, Stafford, and Thomas were reluctant at first to relive the event or to have UFO strangers in their home. After a few more calls and convincing and the offering of his events, sympathy and compassion for their experience. The three witnesses agreed to an interview with Jerry Black. Black invited Mrs. Peggy Schnell of Blanchester, Ohio, to attend. She also had experience with these kinds of cases, and Black felt that the three women might feel more comfortable

speaking with a female investigator. The first meeting was more or less an ice-breaking session, but several very important facts were revealed. Black stated that the three women were all obviously in physical pain, and they all were chain smoking, which they attributed to the experience. All three had an insatiable thirst, and all claimed excessive weight loss since the event. They also gave some details on their observations of the craft, its structure and its behavior.

They would also discuss some of the ill effects that they had sustained. These memories were painful to all three, and they tried to recall details in hopes that someone might be able to help them. Naturally, there were some psychological problems in the aftermath of this experience. Mrs. Smith was having difficulty in performing her everyday duties as an assistant for the Casey County Extension Office. Mrs. Stafford was not only suffering from an eye inflammation, but she was also desperate to know what happened during the missing time. The three women were assured that they would be able to undergo regressive hypnosis and uncover their missing time, therefore alleviating some, if not all, of their emotional stress.

Several things were evident to both Black and Schnell during this first meeting. All three witnesses were sincere about what they'd experienced, and that they were suffering from the so-called beam of light that had entered their car, and there were obvious physical scars from the encounter. Stafford's eyes were horribly irritated, and they burned constantly. As for Smith, she had a mark on the nape of her neck. It was roundish, and had a pinkish-gray color to it, the size of a half. half dollar. In fact, all three women had this same type of burn on their necks. Here is Louise Smith describing these physical effects. And my neck was burning. Oh, it was hurting so bad, you know. And I asked Mona to look at my neck. And then we all got to compare, you know, because we were all

burning and hurting, you know. And Mona's eyes, they were something terrible. So we looked at our necks, you know, I looked at Mona's and we each had a mark on her neck about three inches long and an inch wide that just the top layer of skin looked like had been removed. So we did go to the doctor and he told us that we definitely was exposed to something like radiation that could have been the reason for the burning, for the hurting in Mona's eyes. Another unusual revelation that came from this meeting was the strange reaction of Mrs. Smith's parakeet. When Smith first arrived home, after the experience, instead of her usual happy greeting

from the parakeet, she received a frightening reaction. It flew into the side of its cage and fluttered its wings in a wild display of fear. Smith proclaimed that since the first night home, the bird would have absolutely nothing to do with her. Further tests were conducted in the presence of other birds, and when other people drew near, the birds were perfectly normal, but when Mrs. Smith came close, they too panicked. Unfortunately, and mysteriously, Smith's parakeet would die of unknown causes in March

of that same year. This uncanny reaction was not the only one to come from Smith's presence. The minute hand of her wristwatch began to rapidly spin around. its dial. Also, the following week after the sighting, when she touched her bedroom alarm clock, it stopped working altogether. Another quirky problem was noticed when Louise Smith's car developed electrical problems. Driving to work, she was stopped by police who informed her that the signal lights were not working. But the most crucial problem of all of this was the general ill health and weakness of the three unwilling witnesses of this extraordinary event.

Because of this, investigators agreed that, at least for the time being, no other details of the event would be released. Walter Andrus of the Mutual UFO Network and Dr. J. L.N. Heinek of Kufos, the Center for UFO Studies, were both informed of the case, and both agreed to wait for details until the third. three women were in better condition. After the initial interviews, the investigators involved were convinced that the three women's story was disturbing, yet solid as could be.

There was no doubt in anyone's mind that these three well-respected women, mature and mentally stable, had seen something so out of the ordinary, and the fact that there was missing time involved had to be explored. an abduction was on the minds of the principal investigators. J. Allen Heineck was called upon to provide a professional psychiatrist to perform aggressive hypnosis on all three of the women. Unfortunately, lack of funding was a big part of the decision as to who would be called upon. None of the noted doctors who dealt with these types of situations lived anywhere near the state of Kentucky. A well-respected uphologist and physician, Dr. Leo Sprinkle, was considered.

Sprinkle was a consultant for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, or APRO. But he was not called upon because he lived in Wyoming. But in a stroke of good fortune, Dr. Sprinkle heard of the case and dropped everything to go to Kentucky. When Smith, Stafford, and Thomas were contacted about Sprinkles's desire to help them, they first refused, not knowing of Sprinkles's reputation. At this time, the three women, though needing help, clearly, were still under the impression that in time their problems would pass. And to involve more and more people into the story would only prolong the agony.

While not knowing of Dr. Sprinkle, the three women had heard of Jim and Coro Lorenzen of Apro. And this well-respected husband and wife team were called in to try to ease the fears of this story being released nationally. A promise was made to the three women that the regressive hypnosis procedure and its results would not be released to any of the UFO groups for publication. until a time that they felt comfortable with it. An agreement was made, and a date was set for the regressive hypnosis, March 7, 1976. Dr. Sprinkle and investigators Black and Schnell, and a few others, were all present for the initial session. All of those in attendance reaffirmed their good intentions of keeping the story under wraps until the three weeks. women authorized its release.

At this time, only one of three would consent to the hypnosis, Mrs. Stafford. A silence fell across the room as Dr. Sprinkle began his methodical, professional way of easing Stafford's fear. In a slow, cautious manner, Stafford began to recall the events of that terrifying night. She was able to relive her interpretation of seeing what she thought was an airplane crashing. She was not able to go any further at this first session as tears rolled down her cheeks and exhaustion set in. After the session, Dr. Sprinkles stated that Stafford was still in a post-hypnotic state and that she should be questioned very carefully and cautiously.

After the first hypnosis, Black continued to ask questions of both Smith and Thomas. Mona moved away from the others to rest. Another interviewer began to show Stafford some drawings of aliens. However, the word alien had not been mentioned in the case before this time, out of respect to the three, and also not to lead them in any way. Mona sat and silently looked at the pictures And then in a dramatic fashion She proclaimed This looks like the light I saw

It was shaped like that head Pointing to a specific alien on the sheet of paper Mona sat for a time thinking about that night Then she added to her previous statement Yes, I can see the face now But it doesn't see it doesn't seem solid. It comes and goes. I mean, fades and reappears like in a fog. Its eyes are far apart and at the bottom, the tin is like that drawing. At this time, she had remembered all

she could, but it was more than enough for the investigators to believe that there had been a breakthrough. There was now no doubt, in their minds at least, that an alien abduction had taken place. Dr. Sprinkle was notified the next day of the revelations from Mona and was sent the alien picture that she identified. Her statements were logged and sent along as well. There would be a lapse in the investigation at this point. Several months went by without probing any deeper into the hidden facts of the case. Investigators did keep in constant touch with the three women, albeit in a friendly fashion. Careful not to push them too soon.

The three were still locked in fear. Their physical problems continued and so did the weight loss. Dr. Sprinkle and J. L. and Hineck all the while were still dealing with the problem of funds and trying to find a solution to helping these three ladies. Also, investigators were constantly being prodded for more information on the Stanford three, and as per their agreement, they refused to release any information. While others involved in the case were still trying to find solutions for the financial shortfall, it would be Investigator Black who would find that solution.

After lengthy discussions with the National Enquirer, he had struck an agreement with the tabloid. The inquirer would finance a return trip for Dr. Sprinco to complete his regressive hypnosis, and lie detector tests would be conducted as well. If the results would verify an abduction, the inquirer would have exclusive rights to publishing the story. Also, the three women would receive compensation. Black made the move because of concern to the health of the three women, and also to accumulate facts for the benefit of UFO research groups. There was renewed optimism with the Inquirer deal, and there was hope that the hidden facts of that night would soon be uncovered.

The next hypnosis session was successful, scheduled for the Brown Motel in Liberty, Kentucky on June 23, 1976. Newly present at this meeting was well-known UFO investigator, Bob Pratt of the Inquirer. Though the reputation of the Inquirer left much to be desired, Pratt himself was regarded as an honest, sincere man. Pratt had earlier attempted to get details of the Stanford case, but was denied access because of the earlier agreement of a news blackout. The first order of business on this day would be the lie detector testing.

A detective for the Lexington Police Department, James Young, was hired ahead the polygraph part of the session. Recognized as an expert in the field, Young began his testing of the three women, all done privately for each of the three. Young was actually a great choice for these sessions because he was a skeptic as far as UFO stories went. The tests themselves were lengthy, leaving no room for anything but a conclusive result, whether good or bad. After the tests were all completed,

Young emerged from the room with an expression of utter amazement. It is in my expertise opinion that Louise Smith, Elaine Thomas and Mona Stafford were being truthful throughout their entire rigorous testing. There was not a single hint of deception detected. I can fully admit my skepticism going into these tests, but that skepticism was immediately erased after the testing of these three women.

Next would be Dr. Sprinkles' hypnotic regression. During the regressions, the faces of the three women showed the emotional turmoil they were enduring. The details of what occurred on that harrowing night came slowly, hauntingly to the surface. Here is an actual clip of Luis Thomas during one of these sessions with Dr. Sprinkle. It was right over me.

It was right over you. Okay? Okay. What is it? Oh, it looks like it's going to crash. God, what, just... I don't have my... phone on the gear.

You have your foot off the cash pedal? Not on there. And still the car's going. I'm going 85 miles an hour, more. 85 miles an hour? My car is it. As the hypnosis sessions continued,

more details about these beings would be brought to the surface. The characteristics of the beings form seem to be vague and often indescribable. all three related shadowy figures which floated or glided by them. They also recalled the frightening one eye or two eyes, which also hovered over them. Mona Stafford made an unusual statement in describing an eye exam.

I could see a light at the end of a tunnel, which looked like a volcano with a jagged edge. At this point, she described great pain in her eyes. almost as if they'd been pulled out. Mona recalled a single bright purple eye that radiated lightning-like rays. Elaine also joined the other two in describing these strange events. She remembered two eyes from a round head in deep darkness. One eye, she said, was a beautiful blue,

and the other eye appeared dark. Luis saw several different forms of beings during her ordeal, but she was so frightened that she closed her eyes and didn't look at them. However, some months later, she described her vision of the humanoids in similar fashion to her friends, adding that their hands looked like jagged wingtips. Here she is going into further detail on the beams. They were about four to four and a half feet tall, and they wore a dark, tight-fitted suit.

and a hood. The hood was tight-fitted all, so, you know. The only thing visible was the eyes. They were very huge and pointed more to the temple, not straight across like our eyes would be. There was a noiter. It was almost like a mold. Have you ever smelled a refrigerator that's been fastened up

that with no electric for a long time, you know? And you open that door, and you get this kind of moldy smell. I smell that. And I have never been asked this question, but now I have an opportunity to bring this out also. The odor itself, I smelled stronger when the beings were near me.

And when they looked at me, we did not talk verbally like we're talking now. It was a telepathy-type thing. And I would tell myself I'm not going to look at them, but there was no way I could resist, you know. All three regressions were extremely emotional and terrifying for the Stanford three. In the 25th volume in issue four of the April Bulletin of October of 1976, a summary of these regressions performed by Dr. Sprinkle were published. These were several of his findings.

Mrs. Smith suffered much as she relived the experience. The behaviors, such as weeping, moaning, tossing her head, shuddering, and shaking, were evident to those of us who observed her, especially as she seemed to relive an experience of a fluid material covering her face. Her smile and evident relief in seeing the streetlight at the end of her hour and a half loss of time experience was dramatic and indicated that she was safe in the car once again and returning home with her friends. Sprinkle then goes on to recount Louisa's claim that her pet parakeet, who, according to her claims and the claims of others who observed the bird,

refused to have anything to do with her after the UFO experience. And as mentioned earlier, the bird died within weeks after the UFO experience. According to Sprinkle, concerning Mona Stafford, he would state that she responded well to the hypnotic suggestions and she was able to describe impressions which led her to believe that she had been taken out of the car and that she was alone on a white table or bed she saw a large eye which seemed to be observing her she felt as if a bright light was shining on her and that there was a power or energy which transfixed her and held her to the table or bed she experienced a variety of physiological reactions including the impression that her right arm was pinned or fastened her left leg forced

back and under her with pain to the ankle and foot, pressure on the fingers of her left hand, as if they were forced or squeezed in some way. A feeling of being examined by four or five short humanoids who sat around in surgical masks and surgical garments while observing her. At one point she sensed that she was either experiencing out-of-the-body travel or else she was waiting outside of a large room in which she could view another person, probably a woman, lying on a white bed or observation table. She perceived a long tunnel or view of the sky. as if she had been transported to the area inside a large mountain or volcano. Although she wept and moaned and experienced a great deal of fatigue

as a result of the reliving of the experience, she felt better the next day. She expressed the belief to me that she now had a better understanding of what happened during the loss of time experience. As for Mrs. Thomas, Dr. Sprinco would have this to say. Mrs. Thomas had been rather quiet during the initial interview in March of 1976, Although it was obvious that she was perceptive and aware of other people's attitudes and feelings. Like the others, she has lost weight, but she has also experienced some personality changes. She dresses a bit more colorfully now, and she is more willing to talk and share her ideas with others.

She too experienced a similar reaction during the hypnotic techniques. She apparently was responding well to suggestions to go deeper. When she relived the UFO experience, she experienced a great deal of emotional reaction. Her main impression was that she was taken away from her two friends, and that she was placed in a chamber with a window on the side. She seemed to recall figures which moved back and forth in front of the window of the chamber as if she were being observed. Her impression was that the observers were four-foot-tall humanoids,

with dark eyes and gray skin. One disturbing aspect of the experience was the memory that she had some kind of contraption or covering that was placed around her neck. Whenever she tried to speak or think the contraption or covering was tightened, and she experienced a choking sensation during these moments. At first, Mrs. Thomas interpreted the memories as indication that she was being choked by hands, or she was being prevented from calling out to her friends. Later, however, she came to the tentative conclusion that an experiment was being conducted,

and the experiment was to learn more about her intellectual and emotional processes. She recalled a bullet-shaped object, about an inch and one-half in diameter, being placed on her left chest. She previously had experienced pain in a red spot at that location. During polygraph examination and during initial hypnotic sessions, each UFO witness was interviewed separately from the other witnesses. After the initial description of impressions, the women were invited to attend the additional hypnosis sessions so that each woman could observe the reactions of the other two women. During these sessions, there was much emotional reaction, which seemed to arise from two conditions, the compassion of the witnesses for the friend who was reliving the experience and releasing emotional reactions to the experience. Also, it seemed as if the description by one witness would trigger a memory on the part of another witness,

even if the experiences seem to be similar or different. In his conclusive paragraphs, Dr. Sprinco reports, In my opinion, the UFO experiences of these women are a good example of the type of apparent abduction and examination which seems to be occurring to more UFO witnesses. I believe that the investigation could be continued with the hopes of attaining further information about their experiences. However, the present evidence suggests to me that the women have cooperated sincerely and openly in describing their reactions to their UFO sightings and loss of time experience. And the polygraph examination and hypnotic regression sessions have been useful in uncovering

their impressions of the UFO sighting and subsequent events. I believe the case is a good example of UFO experiences because of the number and character of the witnesses and because the results of further investigation through polygraph examination and hypnotic regression sessions. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard of voice.

Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is ours. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now pay never. All of the women were taken aboard some type of craft

and subjected to physical examinations, according to them. These examinations were harsh in nature, and while there was not any sexual components to any of it, during the abduction, they were restrained in embarrassing, humiliating positions, according to all three. Mrs. Smith would reveal that her exam

took place on a take place on a tape, Mrs. Thomas's were inside of a capsule with an unusual-looking noose-like device around her neck, which tightened painfully if she tried to speak. Mrs. Stafford's exam was in a chair-like device. All three of the women recalled having their body scanned and instruments used which exerted pressure on their limbs. Mrs. Thomas recalled a tube with a bullet-like tip on it, which probed her chest. and she also recalled a warm liquid being applied to her face and body. Mrs. Stafford also recalled the warm liquid.

One fact that all three agreed on was that these beings communicated with them by telepathy. Not once was an entity mentioned to have any type of mouth. Some interesting facts about the craft itself were revealed by Mona Stafford when asked to elaborate on her description of the tunnel or run. volcano. She would now add to previous information that she was looking through a tunnel which lit up into a room brightly. She could see a square table with a helpless woman on it, surrounded by small figures clad in white. The small beings were closely examining this woman in her own words. I'm not sure if the person was Elaine or Lou or maybe even me.

While it's almost never argued that the Stanford 3 had a close encounter with some sort of craft that night, it can be argued about the entire abduction angle to all of this. The 1970s were rich with landmark abduction cases, including the 1973 Pascagoula, Mississippi incident, the 1975 Travis Walton incident, and the 1976 Alligash Main abduction. In UFO lore, this period became known as the humanoid era and also coined the period of high strangeness.

Some skeptics have pointed out that the timeline of the Kentucky case was suspiciously close to two highly publicized events. First, the Betty and Barney Hale case from 1961 was made into a made-for-television movie in October of 1975. The film, which starred James Earl Jones, made a splash on NBC just 10 weeks prior to the experiences of Mona, Elaine, and Louise. The second event was in early 1976 when the National Enquirer upped its reward to a million dollars for definitive proof of the existence of extraterrestrial life.

Furthermore, many skeptics, including Susan Clancy, who published the book, abducted how people came to believe they were kidnapped by aliens. She adhered to the principle that hypnosis is a poor technique for trying to filter memories. Here she is commenting on this during a lecture from Microsoft Research in 2016. So in my research, we found about 10% of believers go on to actually developed these vivid, powerful, emotionally distressing memories. And all of them underwent some form of hypnosis or a hypnotic regression technique or a regression technique or, I mean, it goes by different names.

But they end up in abduction researchers' offices or psychotherapist offices, and they are put through various pseudo-therapeutic techniques designed to help them retry. the memories of what they fear happen to them. And it is during those techniques that they get these vivid, powerful memories of what happened. For them, they believe what happened, because they have the memories and the memories feel very real. But the problem is, three decades of memory research shows that hypnosis, or any technique like hypnosis, that lulls you into a relaxed, suggestible state, one in which your normal reality constraints are relaxed. Any technique that lulls you into that state, you run the risk of creating false memories.

After all of the revelations of the Stanford Three, there remained no doubt that something extraordinary happened on that night. Several profound claims were put on the table. The three women had encountered a flying craft of unknown origin. They had been abducted by beings unknown. But in all cases, no matter how believable, it always helps if other witnesses came forward. And indeed, that is what happened. This case had other observers of the UFO that night, independent of Stafford Smith and Thomas. These sightings occurred in Casey and Lincoln County's Kentucky.

Within a couple of hundred yards of the abductions, one couple watched. from the window of their home where they saw a large luminous object, which passed over the Stanford area. This occurred about 11.30 p.m. Other observers reported also describing a ring of reddish-orange lights around a disc-shaped flying object. Two teenagers out for a joyride stated that they chased a low-flying UFO after it had hovered over a manufacturing plant in state.

They chased the strange object all the way to Danville, Kentucky, and there they reported the object to the police. Another very significant report came from the owner of the property where the three women's abduction took place. The farmer stated that down the road from his house, he witnessed an unusually low-flying object, which shot a white beam of light to the ground. Could this in fact have been the precise time of the abduction itself? The Stanford 3 case, or as it's also known, as the Kentucky 3 abduction, sparked many headlines and news segments throughout the years, most notably that of Lex 18, the NBC News affiliate in Lexington, Kentucky. The women say that their car finally stopped after going nearly 85 miles per hour,

But the car didn't stop entirely. In fact, they say it backed up heading towards a very dark area, an unknown farm to all three of the women. What happened after that, forever is written in UFO history. Regressive hypnosis at the Brown Motel in Casey County took the women back to the strange darkness. A Lexington police detective gave Mona, Louise, and Elaine polygraph tests. After the session, everyone involved found the women. to be truthful. While the hypnosis helped the women, it did not explain why they could not fit the unexplained experience in their natural lives. Over the years, Mona Stafford wanted to talk

about what happened. But Elaine and Louise didn't like to. And when they passed away, Mona was left to ponder alone. But this wasn't the only mainstream coverage this incident would receive. Elizabeth Orndorff, a Danville-Kentucky-based playwright, would write a stage play inspired by the events of the Stanford Three. The play, titled High Strangeness, premiered in Danville in September of 2010. Elizabeth Orndorff shares with us what it was like researching the case, actually meeting one of the three women, Mona Stafford, and also speaking with the Navy recruiter who originally investigated the case. And Elizabeth also shares with us what it was like telling the story for the stage of the Kentucky 3. I first heard about the Kentucky 3 incident from a newspaper article in our local Danville, Kentucky

newspaper. It was in one of the looking back articles 30 years ago, 25 years ago. It got my attention immediately and compelled me to write a play about it because it was within 15 miles of where I live. and people around here are very interested in plays about Kentucky. And I had always been interested in UFOs, aliens, any of that sort of thing. It had always fascinated me. I was definitely interested after finding out that one of the three ladies who had been involved in the abduction was still alive and living about 35 miles away. So that all kind of came together.

This would make a great play. The last woman of the three who was living, Mona Stafford from Liberty, Kentucky, was in her 70s. And I found out that she was alive and I even talked to the newspaper reporter who had done the original article. She was still writing for the Danville paper. So I met with her and got all the details about Mona. And then eventually met Mona. that was fascinating to hear a first-person account of being abducted by aliens. That was fascinating.

The other person that was wonderful to meet, and it was by accident, I found out he still lived in Danville, was Roger Compton, who was the Navy recruiter that the three women went to and reported the incident. They wanted to report it to someone in the government in uniform, and the only person they could think of was the local Navy-Rovie. recruiter. And that man still vividly remembered the incident and was able to recall it and talk about it at great length. The K-3 case seems to be one of the most important alien abduction cases because it was so well documented. Roger Compton always said he truly believed that the

three ladies believed what they said. Although it's been over 45 years since this case, there has been not one negative comment on the details presented by Mona Stafford, Louise Smith, or Elaine Thomas. And the Stanford-Kentucky abduction is still considered one of the best documented abduction cases in UFO history. Special thanks to our voiceover actors in this episode. To Christopher Susie, Rebecca Young, and Stefan Gerhardt. Links to their work can be found in the show notes. And also a special thanks to playwright, Elizabeth Orndorf. Her work can also be found in the links in the show notes. Please take a moment to share the show with your friends, family, and colleagues.

And if you haven't already, please also consider rating and reviewing somewhere in the skies on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get the show. It helps us gain visibility and find new listeners. Thank you, as always, for listening. And remember, keep your feet on the show. the ground, but never stop searching. Somewhere in the Skies. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network. Greetings everyone, Ryan Sprague, our host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Skies podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer

several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your Summer in the Sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options give you the same benefits and rewards, add free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Sky's HQ and help us continue to grow by because, becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support and keep looking up. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's bread.

Why did these beings choose me? There is an orange, yellowish light comes on. David is looking at the light and doesn't hurt his eyes. He is aware of the beings. They are standing over him. They are touching his body. My name is David Huggins. I'm 72 years old, and I live in Hoboken, New Jersey. I was living a perfectly normal life until I started remembering things. It was just like image upon image, upon image. It wouldn't stop. I was so scared. The eyes were just glowing. They hit the ground running straight toward me, and we floated up to

Some type of craft. I said, you hurt me, you hurt me. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is the woman I never told anyone about. When I was 17, I lost my virginity to a female extraterrestrial. That's all I can say about it. Welcome to somewhere in the skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprague.

So I've been researching the UFO phenomenon for about two decades now. God, that makes me feel old. Anyway, I've watched plenty of UFO in alien abduction documentaries throughout those years. They come and go, some being alluring in terms of content, some being complete bullshit, and some that stay with you for years to come. Begging the question, did this actually happen to this person? And that's exactly what happened when I first watched Love and Saucers, the far-out world of David Huggins.

The documentary is the story of David Huggins, an unassuming 72-year-old who claims to have had a lifetime of encounters with otherworldly beings, including an interspecies romance with an E.T. woman, with whom he lost his virginity to, and chronicled it all in surreal impressionist paintings. Are his experiences a dream, a hallucination, or could they be real? Today, I discuss the story and the process of filming with director Brad Abrams. We dig deep into how the documentary came to be. The incredible story that Huggins brings to the table and just exactly what Brad thinks of the entire abduction phenomenon through the lens of his first feature film.

So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Brad Abrams. Brad, thank you so much for joining me today, somewhere in the skies. I'm happy to be here. So your film has been making the rounds both in and out of the UFO community lately and with good reason. It is a stylish, extremely well-made

and compassionate film called Love and Saucers. And immediately after viewing this, man, I had to reach out to you to get you on the show to talk about what the experience was like filming this. But before we even get to that, I would love if you could sort of give our listeners who may not have seen the film yet, maybe just a little elevator pitch about what this film Love and Saucers is all about. Sure. So at its core, it's about a totally normal, 70-something guy who lives in Hoboken, New Jersey, works one day a week at a local deli, does some painting, loves watching sci-fi movies, and also lost his virginity to an extraterrestrial woman.

and that's one of over a hundred encounters that he claims to have had a lot of them sexual in nature or romantic in nature and he has chronicled every single one of the encounters that he remembers in these stunning sort of surreal impressionistic paintings and this film is his story trying to tell it as matter-of-factly as one can tell a story like this yeah and you know as we'll get to he's pretty pretty blunt about it um yeah He didn't really tip-y-toe around, you know, oh, I think I was maybe taken or this or that. Well, we'll definitely get into that. But how, I have to ask, too, like, how did the idea for the film come about?

How did you even get involved in the UFO topic and get connected with David? Well, it was not UFO specifically, but just sort of esoteric, paranormal. Just these hidden, little-known stories have always been a passion of mine. just personally, like reading about them because who isn't fascinated by, you know, discovering a lost city or ancient culture. But as a way to, you know, as a filmmaker and I did commercials before this, just as a visual storyteller, what better way to expose people to these stories that they may never have heard about or heard about in a particular way than filmmaking and documentary filmmaking. So that's how I got into this niche of filmmaking, not necessarily like UFO. But because of this, I was always listening to podcasts.

And about five, six years ago, seven years ago, there were only a few of these sorts of paranormal-ish podcast. And I think I was listening to the paracast. And I had just quit my full-time job in advertising and was sort of had my ears pricked up for any ideas I could do as an independent. filmmaker and they were talking about the abductee experience and sort of listing different cases and offhand as something like too ridiculous for them to discuss was this guy David Huggins who claims he fathered a hundred space babies across the galaxy and then they laughed and and moved on and but for me that was like the you know the thing I remembered out of everything from the podcast because you know does this guy exist and if he exists how can he not be anything but crazy or you know

is he somehow telling the truth? So I tried to track him down and I couldn't because he has no internet presence, which is pretty rare these days, even for an older guy. So I had to track down a neighbor of his, Farah Yerzzu, maybe some people in the UFO community have heard of her. She has had some extraterrestrial experiences. And when she found out her neighbor, David, also did. She made a little photo book of some of his paintings.

And I found that online. got her email and she gave me David's home phone number and I just took it from there. That's really interesting story. Like that that's the determination of, you know, a budding project. You're like knowing you had to talk to this guy and go into those lengths to track him down. That's extremely admirable. That's awesome, man. Well, what do you, what did you think of when you first, you know, connected with him?

And I know you had to have that first face-to-face contact and be like, okay, where are we going to go from here? What was that experience like meeting, David? Well, the first, I'll talk about the first phone call because I opened the film exactly how the first phone call started, which was like once, you know, hi, I'm Brad. We introduced ourselves. He just said, well, Brad, I don't know much, but what I know for certain is at 17, I lost my virginity to an extraterrestrial female. And, you know, what a way to start a conversation. And it just more cemented my desire to try and pursue something with him. And so we had many phone conversations before I met him because I wanted to get the whole story and really have a focus for when I visited. And he actually invited for me to stay at

his house for the first filming, which since I was self-funding it, it was a welcome, even though I knew it would probably be a little strange and awkward. And it was, I ended up sleeping in his ex-wife's bed, who actually still lives with him, but she was away on vacation, thankfully. And From morning to night, I filmed with David. And for every single, like, bizarre thing, you know, like the, you know, hundred plus paintings stacked up in his studio to his 2000 strong VHS film collection, there was his personality that completely balanced it all out because I'd never met someone who was so, like, immediately, like, grounding down to earth, simply spoken, matter of fact,

about the most like bizarre things you'll you'll ever hear so it immediately creates this this conflict in your brain where you're like I shouldn't be like believing what he's saying but because of who he is like his character I sort of have to because he's not some like ranting lunatic he's and everyone that's met him will say like david just seems like the nicest normal guy so it makes you stop and pause and consider listening and so that that was really what made it worth it for me to pursue, like, over the years to finish this film. Well, I mean, that over the years comment, Brad, I'd love to know this wasn't, like, shooting for a week with this dude, hearing his story and then never talked to him again.

Like, this was a pretty rigorous process. How long did you film David when you were shooting the film? It was over, over a few years with, with, like, long breaks in between, because just the reality of independent filmmaking is you don't have much money. and when you do have money, it's still not a lot. So you can only go shoot for a few days at a time. But what's good about that process is then it takes much longer and you get to know your subject much better. You see them over a greater period of time.

It actually helps to flesh out the story as opposed to, you know, I'm just going to go film with you for two or three weeks straight and then have a finished film. So it was really just like a weekend or, three or four days every maybe year or six months or so. And then it started accelerating as we had more support and knew that we had like a pretty good film on our hands and open it up and started filming, you know, Jeffrey Kriple and some of David's friends and colleagues. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you did mention the, you know, the VHS as you saw when he went into his house, which was really cool, by the way, as someone who grew up on VHS. Like that was, it was a very

a nostalgic moment seeing those stacked, you know, 10 high all across the room. As for his paintings, did you know that, I mean, you had mentioned that you saw the book that Farah had created about all of his experiences, but did you know walking in there that you were going to see like these massive huge paintings that this guy had made? No, not at all. And I only found out about the painting part, like a little deeper into my research on him. And once I saw some of the images, they were very low-res what was online, but I could still, like, immediately tell, like, they were very arresting. And they're all painted in a way that there's a story being told in them. They're very cinematic, which is unique, especially for someone who's mostly self-taught.

And so they're like, as a, you see, you pick up, like, these are, these are little scenes from a film, the composition, the lighting, the action in them. and but no I was not prepared for when I actually stepped into that room because just the sheer volume of them and and then the size like some of them are like eight feet tall it really it really sort of grabs you and you're almost like jaw dropping and it was the same effect when I we returned with some crew like a cinematographer and sound guy and producer they were just like oh my god and every time we went we would find more paintings that we we hadn't seen like Like I thought like the first time I photographed like 75 paintings and then each time we'd come back there's like oh five new ones. Yeah, and in person it's the effect of them is even more eerie than the photos.

Yeah, they're extremely arresting. Like you said, like, you know, he was self-taught. So they're a bit amateur at times, but I mean, I'm no art expert. But they're so engaging some of them when you look into the eyes like the creatures or, you know, just the action. you see in each painting. Like, you can tell that this dude is struggling to get this out onto the canvas. And I think that's extremely alluring and something you use as a really cool technique throughout the film when he's telling his stories. But before we even get to like what he claims happened, you do go into like a deep dissection of this man's life, which I think it was very important.

I wanted to know where he came from, you know, what brought him. him to Hoboken, New Jersey, and what essentially became this incredible story. And it was pretty interesting to hear that he fled a very religious upbringing. And belief seems to be a big part of the alien abduction phenomenon. So I have to ask you, do you think that his rejection of religion early in his life, do you think that had anything to do with how he sort of perceived or wrapped this whole alien abduction thing in his life? It's an, it's an interesting angle because, yes, he did. He did reject the religion that it was forced upon him.

I think like a lot of people or especially creative people may, but he's also a very spiritual person. Like he meditates. He does the Chinese like I Ching, which is sort of like their taro. He does yoga. He reads a lot of like sort of spiritual practices. He's not new agey. But there's definitely, I think, was a void and maybe to a certain extent in all of us of, of like wanting to believe in something like other than just the flesh.

And but Jeffrey Krippel took it one step further in suggesting that the alien, it was really this mythos and in universe of the aliens that that helped fill that void or among other things became his like a new sort of thing for him to believe in or a new religion. for him. Yeah, and Jeffrey Krippel is definitely someone I want to talk about. I've been following his work for years, so we'll definitely get to his thoughts on all this. But in the film, Brad, there is this, I guess, quote unquote, woman that David constantly brings up, and that her name is Crescent. Could you give us a little background on who Crescent may be? Sure. So there was a, there was a consistent cast of characters that would visit him. The little hair guy, the insect being this tall, skinny guy with a nub on his head and the grays. But the one that was more consistently there and that had the biggest impression on him was this

a female, and he calls her a female hybrid because everything about her seemed so human physically, except for the face. And the face had an almost classic gray look, except more feminine. And she had human-like hair. And at first, when he was younger, their relationship seemed she was almost like a caring guardian-type figure, maybe even motherly. But once he reached sexual maturity, and at 17, that relationship changed into something sexual and romantic. And she took more of a role on as a almost like a significant other. but she was one of many of these hybrid females.

She was just the one that he interfaced with the most and connected with. And he gave her that name, Crescent. I don't think any of them actually had names as we know them. And the idea that Crescent was, I guess, sort of manipulating David's mind and his body throughout all this. It's very controversial, and we do hear this a lot in alien abduction lore, but David also stated, and this is one of my favorite lines in the whole film, and kind of gave me chills was they were always invited. And that was really interesting.

There seems to be this willingness to let them do whatever they wanted with him, even though he seemed to have, like, you know, pretty much no choice in the matter. Do you think that if he didn't want these events to happen, that he could have somehow stopped it? That's really tough to say because, well, one small detail was that, like, we noticed that, in the paintings where they're they're having sex, she's always on top of him. So we, we just asked, like, why, why is that? And he said, because I was always, I felt paralyzed. And it was just easier that way.

So he wasn't really, didn't seem like he was really able to move when this was happening. And he didn't say it was unpleasant at all, but it's an interesting fact. And whenever, especially when he was younger, whenever he was, like, upset about what was going on or scared or didn't, like it, they would be able to placate him. You know, like make pain go away or make the bad feelings go away. So, so it sounds like there was some psychological or telepathic type of influence. And I, but I don't think that that was everything because you still have, I think the majority of abductees don't consider their, their abductions like positive experiences. So even though, even if they were controlled on some level, they still didn't end up liking it.

But with David, I think there was coercion, but he still liked it. He still, you know, it was still a positive in his mind. Maybe that's why it kept continuing too, because he didn't have any resistance. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. And yeah, I mean, despite the whole idea of it being, you know, pleasurable or wanting to continue, there seemed to be like this overall mission, you know, by these creatures. of why they were doing it. And I found it fascinating that David was so sincere in that idea that he was, you know, somehow being used for this almost like hybridization program. We hear this by many women who claim abduction experiences, but not often by the men, you know, they claim, you know, maybe there's some sort of semen extraction, but not, you know, not the act of actually holding or being in contact with a baby that might be like half yours, you know. So what do you?

What do you make of that whole claim by David that there was some sort of hybridization program that seems to be going on? Just stepping back a little, in an abduction story, just the idea that someone is abducted is alone sort of like a difficult leap, you know, to believe and to sort of suspend belief over. and then adding that you then procreated many times and created many babies with them is a whole other level of belief. So that took a lot of like thinking over for me just to be able to like accept that. And I think for David too, like when he first talks about like learning about that, he was he was, you know, in shock and couldn't believe it. Again, I'll go back to Jeffrey Kriple.

He says, you know, the idea of hybridity is not so, strange in the historical record, you know, just going back thousands of years with with the beliefs of the Greeks and Greek mythology, gods and, you know, beings from the sky intermingling and breeding with humans was like a normal part of the mythology. So it's not, it's not without precedence, but getting into more of the why, at least what David thinks, he never was able to get an answer is that, you know, they lost the ability somehow. or maybe never had the ability to procreate like we do. And they need a human in some way, man or a woman, to make this happen.

And so it wasn't like the act of sex at all that was what was really necessary. It was more getting his like sperm and then using that to hybridize and make these children. And he noticed that as they grew up over time, they looked more and more human, still not quite 100% human, like they still had the odd eyes, but he never saw them here. He only saw them when he was there with them either like on a ship or somewhere else. So I don't know if it wet the whole point of the, if it's a program, if it's for them to come here or if it's just to keep their own race going. It's difficult to muse on. Yeah, yeah, to be determined, I guess.

Well, the paintings, Brad, I want to get back to that for a second because you were, able to use these throughout the film to sort of, you know, propel his story to, to elevate it in a way, I guess, which is in essence what he's trying to do as well to kind of get it out there without using words so much. Did you always plan, you know, when you decided, yes, I want to tell his story. Did you, did you know you were going to sort of use those paintings as a technique to tell the story throughout? Yeah, definitely. And without them, I probably wouldn't have made the film. I did it. experiment very early on with with the idea of maybe recreating the experiences that were in the paintings like the key ones live action and like I did a test of that and I soon realized like what's the point one it it skews the documentary and into a place I don't really want it to go in that you know it's already such a fantastical story and and by showing it I think it pushes it over the top

and two I already have the paintings and the paintings and the paintings are are sort of incredible in their own right. So why not just use them as, you know, as the gift that they are? And it also helps just being on a low budget having that as a storytelling device as opposed to like recreating everything. And I think, you know, we see a lot of recreations and without a lot of resources. They end up looking mostly very cheesy. And that's the last thing I wanted for this film.

So instead just was able to like shoot the paintings in an interesting way, like very macro with moves and also we did an interesting technique where I hired this guy in Eastern Europe to he painted depth maps he's like one of the only people I think that does this he paints these gray scale almost like maps of the paintings that that show their depth and then I can plug that into after effects and put really subtle like camera moves and other effects on them that they're not over the top, but they really add to the immersion and that sort of unsettling feeling of the works.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that was one of the first things I noticed. I'm like, I'm so happy he didn't just do like a flat aerial view of the paintings. It did. It was just enough, I think, to make it come to life. And I think that was really a really interesting technique. I'm so happy you decided

to do that. And again, it helped enhance the story. And one of those paintings, Brad, was that really caught my attention was that of an owl. Now, going back to sort of abduction lore, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Many experiencers claim to have seen owls prior to or after a contact experience. And we see this throughout movies, throughout the UFO abduction literature. Is this something you've ever explored at all in your research into the abduction phenomenon in making this film? The whole idea of

the owl being present? Not specifically the owl, but more like the eyes. of the owl. And that was something that David, David, in retrospect, was thinking, like, when he thought he saw that owl in the tree, then started to think that the eyes looked exactly like that of the hairy, the little hairy guy. Yeah. And that maybe it wasn't an owl and maybe it was that being, or maybe the being that he saw, you know, wasn't a little hairy guy, but was an owl. So that, yeah, I hadn't thought too much on it. Just like, it's such a pervasive image as well, like in David Lynch's work, like with Twin Peaks, the owl is always sort of there when something very strange is going to happen. Like, it's something that that ushers in these sort of

multidimensional experiences. Yeah, it's an interesting, you know, sort of sub-topic that I think is sort of made its way into the abduction phenomenon or lore, whatever you want to make of it. It is interesting. The whole idea of screen memories, too. Like, maybe this is what they use to, like, give us something relatable. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what to make it either. Or it's that, I think, I think it's really like eyes that that seems a common denominator of a lot of these experiences. Like the lasting impression is of eyes.

And it may be that the screen memory is, you know, the closest thing that we can think of, of sort of glowing, creepy eyes in the dark is an owl. Yeah, I think you're right on that. It's definitely like the most human connection we can make. I think for sure. In terms of humans, Brad, the people in David's life, you know, whether it's just like a neighbor, a co-worker, a friend, a lot of them, a majority of them, they do believe him just because like you said, he's such a genuine person and actually pretty down to earth. Did you find anyone that didn't believe him that you were able to get on film? No, this was the problem. Like, I thought I would. Like I thought his boss, for example, who's this real salt of the earth. like Italian immigrant who owns a deli, I thought he'd be like, you know, I like David, but this alien

abduction stuff is wacky. But instead it was like, no, you know, because I know David and the type of guy he is, I believe him. And I might not have seen or had an experience with aliens, but I have no reason to disbelieve David or to judge him or be cynical about it. And then same with his neighbor who's known him for 30 years and didn't know about the abduction experiences, When I told him about it, he was like, well, yeah, you know, again, like, it's even less likely that we're completely alone on the universe. Who knows if they're visiting or not? But, again, I, like, I've known David for 30 years. So, and he's the nicest guy that I've ever met.

So I'm not going to disbelieve him out of hand. And on and on. And same with Jeffrey Kriple, who's this, like, pretty much world-renowned expert in his field of comparative religious studies. And he believes David. And the one person that I'm pretty sure would have been the dissenting voice and would have been the most important one to get would have been his ex-wife who, whom I think, you know, they got divorced over this whole subject. But she just did not, with all of her heart, did not want to appear on film. And I tried, I asked her, you know, separately 10 times in every different way I could. And even though she's a super nice lady and, you know, we got along really well.

outside of filming she just you know i could not convince her to to get on film i think she just did not want it's too painful for her to talk about and she didn't want to feed into this story anymore than than already had yeah i i get them and i mean i've spoken to many experiencers who like you know their their significant other is you know supportive and is there for them but when it comes to actually like broadcasting it out to the world that's a whole other kind of worms that a lot of people don't want to get, you know, involved. Yeah, and, and also, you know, further on the disbelieving scale, I feel like there's not much of a point.

I mean, this is your average person on the street is going to be the one that's like, dude's crazy, you know, and you can just tell from, like, YouTube comments and other things, that's the general populace. And those are the, you know, a lot of the people watching the film. So the, I think it's the audience that's the skeptic, rightfully so in a, in a situation like this. And sure, like, it could have gotten, like, a psychologist or, you know, or. or sociologists to talk about how it's linked to trauma or it's linked to personality disorder or seizures,

but none of them actually know David or, you know, he's not a patient of there. So that is, I don't think, the most responsible thing either. Right, right. It's just a little too disconnected from the story, I think, for sure. Well, you were able to get his son on film, which I thought was really interesting, his son, Michael. What were his thoughts on all of this about what his father was bringing forward? Yeah, Michael was a big surprise too. So, like, I sat him down and I started asking like, you know, what was your childhood like?

And he's like, oh, it was, you know, a normal childhood, nothing out of the ordinary. I'm like, really? Nothing out of the ordinary in your childhood compared to other of your friends. And he had to really think about it. And it's like, what about, you know, the fact that your father was objective aliens? He was like, oh, yeah, that. Yeah, I guess that's a little out of the. ordinary. And that was how it sort of went. Like for him, it was just like this matter of fact

part of his life and upbringing. Like his dad made these weird paintings and talked about being abducted, but he never, he never passed judgment and he just believed him without any sort of, you know, criticism. And he never, I don't think, had an experience as support or evidence, but he just was like, well, I don't have a reason not to believe my dad. And I think David sort of shielded him from the more explicit paintings until he was older. And like in the film, he said Michael would say, like, Dad, who are these people your paintings? Like, oh, these are just, you know, some people that I know from somewhere far away.

And I think that was a pretty good way to lightly introduce his son to it. Yeah, absolutely. God, I can't even imagine. Like, that just becoming like a normal thing throughout your adolescence is, yeah, my dad's an alien abductee. Yeah, his friends are from France or something. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, you know, we've mentioned him a lot throughout this interview so far, Brad, the man of the hour, Jeffrey Cryphold. Now, this dude is like a superhero to a lot of us, I guess, you know, younger, maybe more progressive UFO researchers because he looks at it from a completely different angle.

And I think it's one that is essential and necessary and may give us, you know, a good clue on what we might be dealing with. So for those who don't know who Jeffrey is, could you sort of give us a little background on who this guy is and how you were able to get him on camera, which is really rare? Yeah, so he's a professor of comparative religious studies at Rice University in Houston, which is like a very sort of exclusive liberal arts college and its faculty is well known throughout the world.

So he's a very well-respected academic. He focuses on paranormal phenomena and people who have experienced paranormal phenomena and tries, instead of dismissing them out of hand as crazy or having a psychological or brain chemistry disorder, tries to put it in a historical context. And what he found was, you know, doing what academics do by going back into the literature over thousands of years, found that alien abduction experiences, for the most part, not all of them. they share a lot in common with mystical experiences and religious experiences and, you know, psychedelic experiences and that maybe these things are the same thing. So 2,000 years ago, you know, someone in Greece or Mesopotamia having an experience that involved the, you know, the gods or spirits or someone in the 1500s having, you know, visions of apostles and angels and, you know, you

and Jesus, and then someone in our times having visions of these odd-looking aliens, that these are the same things and that they're real experiences that we don't understand and don't know what they are, but we, just because of how our brains work, we then fill in the holes and fill in the gaps with what we know or what we've seen or what we've heard so that they get colored by popular culture. So what he's saying is it's sort of like the metaphor is like light through stained glass. see all these beautiful colors and patterns and symbols of the stained glass, but that there's actually a light shining through it. And that light is the experience. And what we're seeing is

what's being filtered through all manner of things with our brain and the world that we live in. So that's his sort of theory in a nutshell. So he, and he's not saying that aliens don't exist and that aliens aren't necessarily even coming here, but that he believes that that abduction phenomenon isn't this literal story of beings that are actually abducting and experimenting on people. He thinks that it's something sort of much more universal and non-literal than that. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. And I mean, he even, you know, within all of that, he admits that he had almost like a mystical experience himself. Am I correct in that? Yeah, exactly. And what's interesting, again, is it took the form. It was very much like what you might

call an abduction experience, but it took the form of more like Hindu mythology. And he's not, he's not Indian or Hindu, but that was his, his focus, academic focus at that time. So he wrote a book about sort of the erotic content of Hindu mythology. And it actually got him banned from India and harassed by Indian Secret Service for years later. But so his, his content of it, his paranormal experience was had all this sort of like there's you know i think collie was in it or shiva and it had it had this sort of imagery but if you swapped in grays and um uh alien spaceships it would have been you know exactly you're not your typical UFO abduction experience yeah it was extremely interesting you know especially since he's he's willing to come forward and talk about this having

had his own personal experience somehow with it filling in those gaps i think that's essential And, you know, like you said, like sort of what we put our own lens on what the experience might be. So many people think it might have been a religious experience or this or that. It's very fascinating. We can go down so many different rabbit holes when it comes to these experiencers. Yeah. And it's in some circles it's blasphemy to say it's anything other than, you know, very specific sequence of events that happened. Right.

You know, that it's a UFO from another world coming and doing these very specific things. And you can't see beyond that. And then there's all of the events as of late that are being revealed with, you know, the military and observing these craft. And that could be like a totally different thing than alien abdacti experiences. They might not be related to these craft or ships that they're seeing, which is a very, you know, this is a very, like, studied analytical real thing that's being, like, showing up on, like, cameras and radar, which is a little bit different than how people, you know, experience alien abductions. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point, too. Well, my favorite, my absolute favorite part of the film, Brad, was when you had a showing of David's work in New York City. And this was the moment

I'd sort of been waiting for in the film where we really got an outside eye on how his work was perceived and then learning that this dude says he actually experienced these things. So how how did the how did this all come about the idea of doing an art showing for david i love this part of the film yeah well it you know after we had a cut of the film earlier that didn't have that and it felt it felt just too almost claustrophobic like we needed to get out of his house get out of his block where he lives in hoboken and actually see him interacting with the outside world and and you know people other than his immediate sphere so we thought you know perfect would be a gallery showing. But, you know, no one knows him and he hasn't really shown his work,

especially a solo show anywhere. So we had to engineer the whole thing. So, you know, we rented a gallery space and it came along with like a curator who helped us like pick the works and put them up on the wall. And then just through word of mouth, you know, like Facebook and and other things, we started to spread the word. And it ended up, you know, being, you know, much more successful than we thought. It was like a perfect amount of people. We had a great cross-section. and young and old, and it was just so, so fascinating, just for us to see David juxtaposed with this old guy from the south, juxtaposed with these young New York, like, hipsters, basically, art hipsters,

and just how they, like, totally embraced him. Instead of, like, judging and snickering and making fun, they were all like, wow, and this is so cool, this is so weird and interesting. And they were almost, like, in awe of listening to him talk and tell his stories like, like, it was almost some, like, sort of, like, guru type of experience is really, really odd. Yeah, absolutely, man. And, like, the whole time he was sort of, you know, telling his story behind each painting,

I was, like, watching the person listening. That's always fascinated me more, like, how they're going to react to it. I love those moments of, like, you know, hearing something you're clearly not used to hearing and then being like, oh, my God, he actually, like, believes this. happened to him. This isn't some dude like just creating a story to make a painting. It's, it's, it's very interesting. Yeah, there's like

jaws dropped. Yeah. Throughout the whole galaxy, the gallery. Right. And then, you know, there was even another like, I guess, quote, unquote, experiencer there who said, oh, yeah, I've been abducted, but nothing like this. That was a perfect moment of

just like normalizing this thing. You know, for the experiencers, it's like an everyday occurrence. yes, it's profound and probably life altering to them. But like at the same time, it's like they have their own community. And it's like, oh, yeah, I was taken last week. How about you? Blah, blah, blah.

Right. It's fascinating. In terms of that, like, in the years of filming this and getting to know David and, you know, I'm sure doors were opened in your own mind of like what you think of all this, do you believe David's story? I think it's two questions really. It's like, one is do I believe David? And that's a yes because I don't think he's making anything up at all.

He's describing experiences that he experienced. But then the next question is, do I believe aliens or other beings from maybe other dimensions are visiting Earth and taking people and having sex with them and making hybrid children with them? And so that is, I can't say yes, because that's... that's a really big leap, right? From believing David or then believing this sequence of events that happening. But I also, you know, just as fervently will say that I don't disbelieve it because I have also no evidence that it's not happening as well. And the evidence we do have that it's happening is that a lot of people talk about having these experiences so that something is happening.

So I'll say that I believe David and I believe that something really odd has been happening for a long time. that we don't understand and may not be as straightforward as these are people from another place coming down and experimenting on us. You know, maybe it's some interdimensional thing that like Jacques Valet and others have talked about. Maybe that's more believable or not. I don't know. But I just can't, I can't like call myself a believer just because, you know, I don't have the answers to give myself over to that. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I watched it a second time with my girlfriend. And at the end, she said, do you believe him? And, you know, my answer with your film and with any person I've ever interviewed about this topic is, you know, I wasn't there. That's kind of where I leave it. I was not there. I cannot say, no matter how much evidence or lack of evidence there is. I was not there in the room when that happened. So, yeah. Well, how is the overall response been, Brad?

since the film came out. What do viewers think about it? I know it's screened in many different cities. It's on every streaming service you can possibly think of, which is awesome. Like, what do you gather about what people are saying about the film? It's been great. So far overall, it's been really great. And it was, it's so neat, like being a filmmaker and being able to attend film festival

screenings, like, around the country. Because each city has its own culture and vibe. and so each audience would react completely differently. Like in Austin, Texas at a genre film festival, like people are so into it. And, you know, they love the paintings and the parts about VHS and they're having like a great time. And then in a place like Utah, it's like, you know,

like they still like it, but it's, they're really weirded out and creeped out like, oh my gosh, especially the sexual content. And then in a place like Miami, they're more sort of like laughing at David. like, oh, look at this. It's a little bit of like a freak show. So everywhere is was totally different. But what was universal is that people would come up afterwards and say, you know, I came into this thinking I would watch like a film about like a wacky crazy guy. And that, you know, that would be it. But by the end, I don't know anymore. And I actually, against all my like better judgment, I want to believe this guy because he, he's a believable guy. And there's, you know, there's there's little evidence to think that he was. would make any of this up. So that, and that's what all I hope for. All I hope was that people would suspend their judgment

and start to think that, you know, there's something that can be gained from not dismissing these stories out of hand. And maybe it's as simple as like learning more about us, about humans and how we work. And on the far end, you know, maybe there are people or beings that are visiting us from afar. And we even had people that admitted that they'd seen UFOs or had experiences,

is during the Q&A. So in front of like hundreds of people, they're getting up and saying this, that the film made them feel comfortable that they could talk about it. And then since it's been released, it's been getting pretty, like overall pretty good reviews. You know, I'd say like 80% positive,

which is really good for like the online trial by fire. Yeah, exactly. So it's been doing well and it's going to go, it's going to be on Hulu soon, like late in March, which is going to be really big to get like lots. of eyeballs on it. Similar how Jeremy's film Patient 17 is on Netflix now. Like it's just being on one of those big subscription services like basically like opens opens up your market by millions. So I think that'll be the real interesting task. Because right now I'd say like,

you know, thousands have seen it, but soon it will be much, much more than that. Yeah, I mean, and what's exciting about that too is like that just you're giving a voice to like a really sort of niche community that that is afraid to talk about it outside of like their friends or their support groups because like no one's going to believe them. But now that it's out there to literally to the world to both judge or accept like that's exciting. And that's kind of the risk you take when you come forward with these things. So I think it's great that you've given David that platform. And now it's up to the public, you know, to come out with our own conclusions. But do you know, like offhand. Has David even seen the film or like what he thinks of this whole process of working

with you? Yeah. So it actually took a long time for David to see it once it was finished because, you know, his preferred viewing format is VHS. Right. And it's more difficult than you think these days to get something dumped onto VHS. So it took, you know, eventually I gave up and sent him a DVD. But even before that, when the film was finished, he, he called me to say, you know, Brad, I had like a message from from the beings that about the documentary. And I was like, oh, God. What, you know, what did they say? Erase them all.

And he actually said that they, yeah, they approve of it and that they support it. And even though it's sort of like a ridiculous statement, like that the extraterrestrials approve of the film, it actually made me feel really good because if they are real, the last thing I want is to be pissing them off. So then shortly after that, I send him a DVD and he was able to watch that. And he, yeah, I was, I was worried. I didn't know what, you know, it's his life. It's very personal, you know. But he called me back and said, Brad, I just want you to know, like I really like the film.

I think it's really well done. And that was it just like how, that's how, you know, simply spoken he is. That was his review. It was he really liked it and thought it was very good. So I'm glad. I'm glad about that. It's been very different for him. I think thankfully he doesn't have the internet.

So he can't go on to like, you know, Twitter or YouTube and read all these like very childish comments that you see. So he's sheltered from that, which is really helpful. But now he's getting, you know, calls for radio shows. He was on Britain's like biggest morning show, you know, viewed by millions every morning. They had him come into the studio in New York to be patched in. And, yeah, that's, you know, that's totally new experience for this, you know, mid-term. 70s guy who never had any sort of of fame before. So I think he's actually enjoying it. Yeah, I mean, the dude is in his 70s. Like, let him ride that wave for sure.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. And to know that the film has been approved the first UFO slash alien abduction documentary to be approved by the beings abducting the man. That's pretty, pretty bragging rights right there, man, for sure. Well, I know you're working on another film that kind of relates to this, kind of doesn't. Who knows? We're trying to make those connections right now in our two different camps of thought. But you're working on a film about cryptozoology, which is another big interest of mine. Can you tell us a little bit about that project before we wrap things up here? Yeah, I think it's a very different film. Like, it's about a big field. But what's similar about it is, again, it's something it's done in a very

non-judgmental way and taking it seriously. So instead of the typical, you know, discovery channel or like reality TV hunt for monster sensationalized piece, it's actually taking the field as, as just for under serious consideration, like cryptozoology is actually something that that's important. So we're interviewing all of the most credible in the field, like Lauren Coleman, Linda Godfrey, Lyle Blackburn, Scott Martis, we're staying away from anyone on the fringes. And still, I mean, it's still going to be fun and quirky. Like, you can't get around that with cryptozoology.

I mean, all these people were interviewing are all characters in their own right. And the beasts themselves are kind of funny and weird. But it's not about finding creatures. You know, we're still going out in the field, but we're not going on expeditions hunting for something. Because that's when I think you get into trouble. But instead, it's like the legitimacy and history, of it basically and in considering it like an actual field of study. So that that's cryptozoologist.

And we're we're in the fundraising phase right now, but have have shot about probably like 15% of the film so far. Well, that's that's good to hear, man. It's invigorating to know that like there are filmmakers out there who want to lend credibility to these topics. And that's what we strive to do constantly is, you know, give these things a place in, you know, the mainstream to be like, look, something weird is going on. No, we don't know what it is, but we're trying to figure it out. So I think that's really cool. I'm really looking forward to that film. Lauren Coleman is, again, like a hero to a lot of us out there. So awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And if anyone is interested in more like sort of serious or like almost scholarly cryptozoology films, there's the Seth Breedlove, you know,

small town monsters. Have you heard of him? Absolutely. Yeah, I had him on the show a couple, yeah, months ago. Oh, cool. Yeah. So he, yeah, he, you know, breaks down basically like individual crypted stories, and, and that's also refreshing that he doesn't do it in a, in that reality TV style way. Yeah, and really shines a light on these small towns and, like, the lore behind what has happened there. Yeah, love it. I, I can't wait to see a, uh, a hybrid film between the two of you at some late date. Exactly. Yeah. Well, the paintings. Before we go, Brad, these things are so incredible. And I know we can't get our hands on the originals, but they are available in some form, right? I believe I saw this on your website.

Where can we get those? Yeah, so we made prints available because it's hard to actually buy an original. You have to be in New York City or Hoboken and pick it up directly from David. And if you want to do that, get in touch with me and I'll try and work that out. But because a lot of people aren't in that position, we decided to sell limited edition, like very high quality. prints of six of our most favorite of his paintings. And if you just go to leaven saucers.com, you'll see a shop link up there or a store link and you can pick from those paintings. That's awesome. And again, the DVD of the documentary is available at your website as well.

And it's available on countless streaming devices. And you said, Hulu coming up. That's awesome, man. I can't wait for that. Well, Brett, this film, it's, I can imagine it, would be polarizing for those who simply have no room in their lives to believe something like this. And I can't really fault people for that. But the way you weave in and out of David's life and like his genuine nature, it makes it something truly to ponder. And like no matter what did or didn't happen, I think you treated David with compassion, with, you know, objectivity and with this lens that allowed us to peek in on this guy's life. And it was very grounded, you know, the story that could be truly out there.

And I'm just so happy you did this, man. So again, I have to... Of course, of course. I got to thank you for coming on the show to talk about all this. We only scratch the surface. So I can't wait for listeners to see the film. So again, thank you for coming on today. You're welcome.

It was a blast. Thank you so much. All right. That is it for this week's episode. Again, you can find Love and Saucers on DVD or on many different streaming services. Head on over to love and saucers.com to learn more. And to learn more about Brad's work, visit bradaprahams.net. Please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the show on iTunes, or wherever you may listen from.

It helps so, so much. We're on Twitter at SomewhereSkies, Instagram at SomewhereSkies pod. And for all past episodes, articles, and to contact me, visit the website, somewherein the skies.com. I'll see you here. here next Monday for a very special witness accounts, volume two, where you'll hear listeners talk all about their own personal UFO encounters. Remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching. Somewhere in the Skies. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network. To learn more, visit Entertainment Onepodcast.com.

Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague, your host of Somewhere in the Guys. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your Summer in the Sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber. Or you can join our Patreon campaign with several tiers available. Both of these options, give you the same benefits and rewards, add-free episodes, early access to the main show, and bonus episodes and content. Help keep the lights on at the Summer in the Skies H.Q.

And help us continue to grow by becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Or by clicking the subscribe button at the top of your Apple feed. Thank you for your continued support. And keep looking up. A-70 is a major road in Scotland. It runs a total of just about 120 kilometers, or 75 miles, from Edinburgh to Eyre. Much of the road is elevated, desolate moorland. It ascends several times on its course to heights over a thousand feet above sea level. In several areas of the road, it presents extensive views over central Scotland to the north.

And while many travels have been taken up and down this often quiet country road, there was a traveler or travelers that may not have come from Scotland, the United Kingdom, Europe, or even from our world. And in 1992, two men driving down the A-70 would learn this the hard way. This is the story of Gary Wood and Colin Wright, a Scottish UFO abduction. This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan's bread. It was August 27, 1992, at approximately 10 p.m.

Gary Wood and Colin Wright were driving from south of Edinburgh on the A-70 to the village of Terbrachs in East Lothian. They were on their way to work a small appliance repair job. The journey across the A-70 should have lasted a distance of about 50, 15 miles and about 30 minutes, it wouldn't. Rounding a blind corner in vicinity of the Harbouric Reservoir, Colin abruptly leaned forward, exclaiming to Gary, What the hell is that?

Gary peered through the windshield, there ahead of the car, floating about 20 feet above the road, was a two-tiered, disc-shaped object, about 30 feet wide and much, much wider than the road. The object was smooth, black, and shiny, with no windows or illumination. Both of the men, completely awestruck with what they were witnessing in front of them, and absolutely terrified, wanted to get away as soon as possible. As their vehicle passed beneath the craft, a sudden shimmer of light descended on the car.

Soon, the men were enveloped in total darkness as they both. lost consciousness. When they next came to their senses, they were startled to find themselves still in the car, as it veered out of control off the side of the road to come to a stop. Both men would eventually admit that they thought they had died. But as they sat there, alive, and tried to figure out just what happened, they started to slowly pull themselves together and continued on their way in a very confused state. When they reached their destination, they were in for another shock when they looked at the time and saw that a full two hours had passed,

which was impossible because it was typically only about a 30-minute drive. They could not figure out where the missing time had gone, no matter how hard they tried. And they both agreed that the only thing they could remember was that strange black disk and its glimmering, of light. They tried to rationalize it as tiredness and put it out of their minds, but things were about to get much stranger. The following day, Gary woke to find himself completely fatigued, with barely even the energy to get out of bed. His entire body felt heavy, and this continued on for the next few days, along with nightmares that he could not remember when waking. Additionally, he began to be able to be able to be.

getting strong migraine headaches and thinking that there was something seriously wrong with him. He would eventually consult his doctor and was advised to have an MRI scan, which proved negative. As an additional precaution,

he underwent the uncomfortable procedure of a spinal tap. But once again, nothing specific was discovered or diagnosed. This is when Gary began to suspect that his physical condition was somehow related to the strange experience he and Colin had out on that lonely stretch of road. He thought that maybe there was something hidden in those two hours of missing time as well.

This is when Gary decided to get in touch with a prominent UFO researcher in Scotland. My name is Malcolm Robinson and I am the founder of Scottish UFO and Paranormal Research Group, Strange Phenomena Investigations. I founded SPI way back in 1979, and I initially set out to disprove subjects such as UFOs, ghosts and poltergeist, as I honestly felt that there were no validity to these claims. But how wrong was I? As I travelled on my UFO and paranormal quest, I soon realised that these things were real and demanded serious investigation. Seeking some sort of answers to what may have possibly happened, Malcolm made a suggestion on how Gary and Colin should move forward.

I first became involved with the A-70 UFO incident when one of the witnesses, Gary Wood, telephone me at home to inform me that both he and his friend Colin Wright had had a strange experience on the A-70 road. My initial thoughts after hearing what Gary had to tell me, was that this case could possibly be head and shoulders above anything else that I've dealt with before. At this point my career, I advocated the use of hypnotic regression as a tool to perhaps, and as a big perhaps, extract any possible hidden subconscious memory of something else that may have happened at night.

I asked if Gary and Colin would like to try it, to which Gary replied, most certainly as he really needed to know what happened to him, as even his wife and friends did not believe him. He knew, deep down, that something else happened that night. Colin too was happy to go under regressive hypnosis. When I got both men to my home, which at that point was in the small town of Tullabody in Clackmannshire in central Scotland, I could see that they both were very troubled at what they had gone through

and that they both were looking for answers as to what had happened to them. I've dealt with hundreds of witnesses over 45 years and you do get a feeling of who is telling the truth as they see it as opposed to those who are looking to pull the wool over your eyes. Both men for me were as honest as the day was long and this impression has remained with me until today, over 30 years later. While early hypnotic regression sessions yielded panicked emotions by both men, and scattered and fractured images and memories,

gradually a clearer picture began to come into focus, a picture that would only lead to more questions than answers about what had occurred on the A70 Road that night. Under separate hypnotic regressions, both men claimed that after being hit with a curtain of light, their car had died on the spot, after which they had been approached by small humanoid creatures, three to each side, which opened the doors of the vehicle and put them onto two stretcher-like objects that hovered over the ground. As this was happening, the men had been paralyzed. Their bodies racked with pain and could, convulsing as if they were receiving an electrical shock. Gary would later state of his recollections the following. I saw the three creatures coming towards my car. I felt intense pain, like an electric shock.

Then I was in some room. I saw these things, like wee men moving about doing something to me. I could only see up. Then a six-foot-tall creature approached. It was white-gray in colour with a large head and dark eyes with a long, slender neck. very slim shoulders and waist. There were either ribs or folds of skin on its body. The arms were like ours, but there were four very long fingers.

The little ones were about three foot tall and seemed to do all the work while the big ones did the communication. After this, Gary's memories remained murky at first. But Colin was able to remember being led into a circular corridor, filled with a dazzling bright light, which was sterile and featureless, save for a strange curved chair, described as being almost organic in shape.

He was led to the chair by one of these entities, and then stripped naked and made to sit, after which he underwent an intrusive physical examination. Colin also remembered lying back in the chair and looking at the ceiling. It was corrugated, translucent, and there was soft, diffused lighting filtering through. This memory segued seamlessly. into being naked in a transparent container, made from material rather like glass.

He had straps at the feet and ankles securing him. Outside the container, he could clearly see other men and women, all naked and all in transparent containers. Blowing around the outside of these containers was a mist rather like a fog. Colin also saw a number of tall humanoid creatures, one of which was standing framed in a doorway, opposite him, and another three were approaching the container in which he was imprisoned. Abruptly, the transparent material of his container began to frost up. Colin became alarmed and began to weep. Suddenly, the frosting began to retreat, almost like a film strip running in reverse,

until the material was once again perfectly clear. Colin nervously watched as an angular device rose from the floor. It was long and thin like a rod with a small triangular head. Two glowing red lights were set into one of the sides. There was a peculiar appendage about halfway along the length of the device, and the base was jointed at the floor. The entire machine moved up and down continuously, and the appendage swung from left to right.

Although there was no pain, Colin thought it might be scanning him. The examination seemed to be mostly harmless and non-invasive at first, but this would change when another device approached his eye and began some sort of frightening procedure. Colin would state the following, under hypnosis, of his surreal experience at the time.

Something's a mighty eye. I don't know It's uncomfortable Like a red hot poker In the centre of my eye It's really sore I can't see anything with that eye I'm trying to get a good look at the thing

The thing that's doing this to me It's just too cut out of my eye My right eye's really burning My eyes really watering It's gushing It felt like there was something clamped on it That there was something going into my eye something's looking at me in the corridor

it's it was it's ugly it's ugly and it's lurking in that corridor it comes and goes it seems ancient to me ugly it's really bad for deformed

I'm not scared of it anymore it seems that this thing has been in a fight and it's the loser I think it's trying to manipulate me I don't know I think I'm pissing off because I'm not scared anymore. I'm laughing at it.

It's weird. It's a way. I can hear a noise behind me. Can't think of a word to describe it. I'm staring at a wee one. A wee creature. It's not very happy with me. I don't think I was supposed to look behind my chair for some reason.

He's looking at me with those black eyes. But I'll not give in. It's trying to outstair me. It's a way. I don't think it was very pleased with me. It just doesn't want me to see what is behind me for some reason. If I tried to do anything, they'll come in the corner and they'll stop me. I keep wanting to get out of this chair, but I bet it'll be a big mistake.

As Gary's own hypnosis sessions continued, his memory gradually became sharper, and he largely described the same sort of experience as Colin. In his case, he remembered waking up. on a flat table with some sort of black lens-shaped device that was twisting and turning in the center of the room, making a whooshing noise. As he looked around the otherwise featureless room,

a long, thin, translucent arm, then extended over his chest towards his head, after which it suddenly dropped right onto his chest. While this was going on, there was a strange buzzing noise pervading his skull, and he felt that he was being watched and studied by an object on the wall. Later, Gary would recount the following. It was buzzing, like interference.

There was a sting on the other side, like a flap, and there were two eyes on it. In this place there was an object upon the wall, and it was watching me. It was something horrible. I didn't know what it was. Aye, yes, the black lens thing, about seven feet wide, and it was the shape of a black eye. and there were four packs. They were like, you know how you get a box of chocolates and some have lines on them?

They were like that. They were making this object fold and in itself like a black liquid and it would start spinning around and making a whoishing noise. It was like it was all off balance. Then spot on, like it was running perfect. They turned me around again

and there was a circular hole in the floor. There was a gel-like substance, like wallpaper paste, a clear gel. And I saw something moving in it. One of these creatures climbed out of the gel. At this point I jumped out of the hypnosis. Now, some of these creatures looked like they were bruised and had to be in this gel stuff.

I was taken to this place and I saw these things. I saw these things like they were really, really thin and they had a funny shaped head and there were lots of them. They kept coming towards me, bending on themselves and going away. Now this place I was in, it was like a red mist and these things were swimming in the red mist and all these things kept coming. Big ones and wee ones.

And they were all looking at me. they would fall back on themselves and head away. I think these things, you know how you get tadpoles and frogs? They were like that. In all, Gary remembers there being around 20 or 30 creatures present. The majority tall, pallid, grey colour and frail-looking. One notable variation from this was a smaller, rather bizarre-looking being with an odd, heart-shaped face.

On its face were some strangely familiar markings. These comprised colored facial stripes three diagonally on each cheek, almost reminiscent of tribal markings, normally associated with members of Native American tribes. He looked at the creatures and mentally asked, Why are you doing this? The answer that appeared in his mind was surprising and a little disturbing. It was one word, sanctuary.

While he was in telepathic communication with this creature, he was able to see fragments of its existence as if the process was a two-way street. The creature found this amusing, but could not prevent it. In a further mental communication, the being said, in many ways you are more advanced than us, but you have been capped. Our existence is much like your own. we also have concerns and needs. So what did this creature mean by capped? Could they have meant that our development either psychologically or physically or both had been deliberately slowed down?

Were we likely to present a threat to someone or were we perhaps too immature to deal with the responsibility that our development would bring? These were many of the questions that Gary asked himself about what it meant. to be capped. Gary would also remember other bits and pieces from his ordeal, although he wasn't sure of the exact order of events. On one occasion, he would claim that he had been in some sort of stone chamber with tunnels leading off into the darkness.

He also remembered seeing a crying, panicked, and disheveled human woman sitting on the floor sobbing as one of these entities stood next to her. The next thing he remembers is being dragged back to the car and blacking out, after which he awoke to find Colin in the car with him. Colin, under hypnosis, would state the following. There is a big alien in front of me doing something. My head is pounding. I don't know if it's giving me something or taking something out of my head.

My mind goes black. Then later, my head feels numb. It feels massive. It feels as if I've got a big forehead. shooting pain. I don't know what they have done, but it's weird. My brain feels like it's swollen

and pushing my head out like it's going to burst. I can't handle this. It's stopped. It's weird. Big bang and a thud. Then I'm back on the road. Gary's looking at me. He's bewildered.

Gary's asking me, did you see what I saw? As soon as both men gathered their wits about them, they took a look at the car and the area around it, and found things from the vehicle strewn about. They would also notice a strange white material all over the car that seemed to appear out of nowhere. Gary would state the following about all of this. After what happened, Colin and I went back looking in the area and found stuff that had been in the car,

dusters, rags and bits and pieces, as if someone had been raking around in the car. After this, my car started growing a white dust all over it. You know the kind of thing that develops on battery terminals like crystallisation, but all over the car. I was always at the car removing this growth, rubbing down the paintwork and repainting it. I couldn't understand it. I know cars, it's my job, I'm an ambulance mechanic. I tried everything, but it made no difference. Inside the boot, it was everywhere, this white crystallisation.

When this story of the A70 incident got out to the public, due in part to Malcolm Robinson, it became a huge story not only in Scotland, but gradually it began to make headlines across the entire world. Many would dismiss it as yet another fanciful story made up by two men with nothing better to do. However, others believed this was a genuine case of alien abduction. But for most, they teetered on the fence, not exactly sure what to buy them. believe. So what was some of the most convincing evidence from this case? Malcolm Robinson believed the following. The key pieces of evidence were things that did not conform to other worldwide UFO abduction tales. And I refer to those creatures having red, green and yellow

markings under their large black eyes. Now, this is not consistent with other levels. worldwide UFO reports. Some of these creatures had what appeared to be heavy, rolled up segments of skin on their stomachs, which again is unusual. Both men came back from this incident with scars on their body which previously were not there and the journey from Edinburgh to Terbrax should only have taken them around 35 minutes. But when they arrived at Terbrax, they found much. to their astonishment that the journey had taken well over an hour.

So, a period of missing time was unaccounted for. Both men prior to this encounter did not have any interest in matters pertaining to UFOs and aliens. Yes, they had heard about them, as we all have through TV and radio, but it was not a big thing in their life. For me, this case is real. By God, it happened. I have not once changed my opinion on this case.

Having met the men many times, my conviction is that they are telling the truth. This case plays a massive role in Scottish euphology. It shows that Scotland, as a nation, has also been touched by the UFO presence. Let us not forget that there were a... number of other experiences of which Gary had to endure, namely a small grey appearing suddenly in his bedroom, and on another occasion a white mist enveloped his car one day as he was driving

himself and his two young sons on another desolate stretch of road. As it stands, this is Scotland's first officially reported UFO abduction. This incident is real, and I'm convinced that it happened in the way that both witnesses described it. No matter the case, the A70 UFO abduction remains one of the most compelling accounts of alien abduction to come out of Scotland. In fact, it was recently discovered that there were once classified files on this incident within the Ministry of Defense, which were recently made public within the National Archives, prompting many to believe that the British government did indeed take this case seriously enough to put it on record. No matter what did or didn't happen on the A70,

a dark lonely road that night, it remains a deeply bizarre addition to UFO history. And, like most UFO cases, remains a mystery, with answers that may lay somewhere in the skies. Couldn't get enough of Scottish UFOs this week? We'll fear not. We have a special bonus episode waiting for you over a Patreon. In 1979, in the Denschmont Woods area near Livingston, Scotland,

Robert Taylor would claim to have encountered beings from another world. And it would be the only case in all of Scotland where a UFO would become part of a criminal investigation. Hear the story of the Denshmont Woods' encounter of Robert Taylor, waiting for you over on Patreon. Visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Special thanks to our voiceover talent in this episode. To Andy McGillen and Mick Ford, links to their Twitter accounts can be found in the show notes. Special thanks also to Brent Swancer, Brian Allen, and Malcolm Robinson for a

additional research on this episode. Additional coverage and updates on the A-70 UFO case can be read in Malcolm Robinson's book, The A-70 UFO Incident, available on Amazon. Link in the show notes. If you haven't, please take a moment to subscribe, follow, rate, and review somewhere in the skies on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get the show. We're on Twitter at Summer Skies and Instagram at Summer. More Skies pod. Links to our merch store, articles, and books can all be found in the show notes.

Thank you so much for listening. And remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. I'm Ryan Sprang. And I'm Andrew Sanford. And we love pro wrestling. It's the best. Headlocks, elbow drops. Scathing promos and chair shots.

We just can't get enough of it. So, we started a podcast. You can join Ryan and me as we dig into the ins and outs of pro wrestling like the rabid fans we are. We've got interviews, previews, predictions, news, and so much more. And we're going to cover all of it on somewhere in the ring. Oh, yeah. Is that supposed to be macho, man? Nope, no good.

We'll work on it. Join us every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts, for all news. episodes and we'll see you somewhere in the ring. Somewhere in the Ring is part of the E1 podcast network. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. Today we're talking to NK. Kranda, experience a researcher and preserver of witness testimony. I do a lot of research with trauma and PTSD.

That's kind of where I'm coming from is that these people already have their story and they've already had the stigma and they've already had the heartache and the shame and everything else, it's time to just listen. And sometimes just listening is like more than these people could ever have imagined. I'm like, well, you know, your story was amazing. Would you like me to preserve that? And they're like, no, I think I just wanted someone to listen. And then they disappear forever. This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan's bread. For those who know me or have read my book, you know that I hold witness testimony in very high regard when it comes to investigating and researching the UFO phenomenon. a witness coming forward, we almost never have anything to work off of. The scientists have

nothing to test. The journalists have nothing to report. The investigators and researchers have nothing to investigate. When it comes down to it, the people having these experiences are the only reason you're listening to this show. It's the only reason UFOs are in conversation all over the world. It's because someone looked up in the skies in the saw something they couldn't explain. Or they had a close encounter experience with something many believe is otherworldly, non-human. And today, we're going to talk to one of the people who listens, who records, and who preserves these stories.

N.K. Kranda is a Southern California native, now living in Texas. She went to school for horticulture sciences and graduated with the highest honors. She then continued her education in the fields of psychology, PTSD, and trauma therapies. She currently works and experience her research and preservation, and has the honor of interviewing some of the most incredible people this field has to offer. And today, we learn all about her work in where it fits into this giant puzzle of mystery that continues to elude us somewhere in the skies. I'm so happy we finally made this happen.

And I feel like we've been trying to do this for a while now. I know. We would kind of play tag as far as comments on Facebook goes. And then we're like, oh, we should have an interview. And then another six months went by. So finally. It's one of those every six month things. We're like passing ships in the wind.

But no, we're finally here. We're finally doing this. And I'm so happy to finally have you on because you represent something that really, really attracted me to the UFO topic. and phenomena as well, and that's experiencers. Now, I wrote a book all about this in 2016, where I interviewed hundreds of individuals who claimed everything from lights in the sky up to abductions and close encounters,

and it was interesting. It was extremely eye-opening for me, and I know we're going to get into how it's sort of impacted your life, but before we start to get to that, I always like to get the origin story of how people became who they are in this field. So would you mind maybe telling us a little about yourself and how you got involved with the UFO topic?

To be perfectly honest about myself, I'm a very normal, regular, boring person. I'm pretty much 90 years old. I have an office job. I like to knit. I think that when my toddler was teething, I watched Finding Nemo about 7,362 times. You know, I've never had any.

major psychiatric disorders or anything like that. So I think I'm doing pretty well on that end. Yeah, I can blend in with the crowd. You know, I'm just, I'm really just a normal role. I'm looking at your bio here and you were a horticultural scientist. Is that true? Yeah, that's what I went to school for. I studied horticultural propagation, diseases, and I wrote my paper on the effects of interior escapes and live plants inside of hospitals. And I found that people that had live greenery to interact with, or even to look at would heal from surgeries and recover much faster. That's like something I never really thought about is like how we can sort of communicate with plants or like how they can be mutually beneficial and whatnot.

That's so cool. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, you also have education in the fields of psychology, PTSD and trauma. So I got to ask, in all of this stuff that you've done, how did UFO experiencers play into all this? How did that happen? To be honest, I'm going to blame my daughter because every parent does. She had just really worn me out one day. And when she had finally collapsed for a nap, I was watching one of those YouTube top 10 videos.

And it was top 10 mysterious disappearances in national parks. They're quite addicting. And of course, a lot of the missing 411 cases came up. And a name that kept coming up was David Politis. So I researched him and I noticed that he went to something called a Mufon Symposium. And I had no idea what that was. and I did some research on the organization, and I was like, you know what, you know, what the hell? I'll go to a meeting. Maybe I can talk to somebody about missing 411 or get to know some other people.

I didn't, but I actually got to meet some pretty cool people. I ended up becoming their secretary, so I was there for every meeting. I was writing a whole bunch of reports. It was very boring. I was very overqualified. I found that a lot of the subject matter was kind of pretentious and speculative. But the most fascinating part about this is that at the end of every meeting, these people, would come in, you know, people that looked like they had just gotten off work or, you know, just a normal mom, like a waitress would come in and then they would, like, very quietly and almost like they were ashamed, they would come in and tell an incredible story. Like, either they had seen a UFO or they had been having this reoccurring nightmare ever since childhood about these things that

would come into their room. A couple of people had seen cryptids and things like that. And rather than being supportive and kind of taking these people, you know, in their arms, I found that a lot of the members of that particular Mufon chapter were more investigative where they would start picking apart the story or picking apart the person. And they just really didn't give a crap that they were under like some serious stress and also possibly trauma. So what I started doing was at the end of meetings, I would kind of sneak up to these people and say, hey, you know, we're really supposed to be a service to the community.

and how can I help you, like, how can I support you better? Like, is there something I can do? And more often than not, we would end up staying late after the meeting, and they would open up to me a bit more because I would just talk to them, you know, person to person, experience her to experience her. I was like, man, these stories are amazing. Somebody should really be writing them down.

Like, are you writing them down? And they say, no, I've actually never talked about this in my entire life. So eventually I became the person that started writing those down and preserving them and starting to do my own research. That's where it comes in. I mean, firsthand testimony is sometimes all we have to rely on when it comes to these cases. I mean, yeah, dates, times of events are important, obviously. A scientific approach to uphology is very important.

But none of this would happen or none of this would progress if it weren't for the witness themselves telling this story. So it's so good to hear that someone is doing that, especially within Mufon, sort of the most visible UFO research organization out there. So I'd love to touch on that briefly with you. When you joined Mufon, how does this work? Because I'm not a Mufon member, never have been. I've spoken to many people who have been. But when somebody reports a UFO sighting or even an experience or close encounter with Mufon,

how does that go? Like you report it and then what happens? There's two different ways to go about it. Either you can report a siting, and that's through their website, and you'll be assigned to, your case will be assigned a number, and then it will be assigned to a local chapter where it will be investigated. Unfortunately, it's not a perfect system. I've seen many at times where cases have been investigated, and then there's been no follow-up with the witness at all. They have no idea what happened, and they probably never will. The best that we can do sometimes, the good investigators that really are passionate and care about what they're doing, like Earl Gray-Anderson is a fantastic investigator.

Oh, yes, absolutely. He actually takes the time to call them and go over photographs and things like that and try to give them at least an idea, you know, whether or not he debunked it and said, hey, you know, this is a balloon and this is why you thought what you saw or, you know, hey, this is actually a very cool picture. Thank you for sending it in. And then you can go the other route, which is their ERT program, which is the Experianer Research Team. And that's held up by Ms. Kathleen Marden.

Is that how you say your name? I believe so, yes. Yeah. So what you would do then is then. you'd go on the Mufon website and you would fill out their experience or questionnaire. And it's very short and very simple. And you can choose to either be anonymous or you can choose to have them contact you back. And when they contact you back, if you should so choose, they'll do an interview with you

and they'll find out exactly what your experience was. Did you feel that you were an abductee or were you a contactee? And what they're going to do is while they're going through these interviews with you, they're going to be looking for certain markers. And these markers are what they're going to be taking to compare against other cases for their research to get those patterns of research going. So I can't speak that it's like they can't guarantee 100% confidentiality. They just can't. Like we've had leaks happen all the time.

But if you're interested in actually being part of a study that's pretty big and only getting bigger and sharing with other organizations that do that as well, I can recommend the Mufon experience or research team. They're pretty good. Now, is this at all connected, Nikita, to the free organization? They're separate entities, but they do work together from time to time. They do share information. The free study just published a wonderful book. I don't have it with me. I know I mentioned it in Hysteria 51, and I do believe that Mufon is working on their own book.

I don't know when it will be ready, though. Interesting. Yeah, because I remember I had Ray Hernandez on. briefly wants to talk about that. And it's so interesting to see that there's like different groups that are doing this, but they're sharing their information. And I think that's what's most important is a lot of UFO researchers, whether they're scientists or culturists or psychologists, like they hold it so close to the chest.

You know, they want to save that one case for some rainy day fund, as it were. And like, it's theirs. But I feel that changing now within the UFO field is a lot of these younger people getting involved because they're so privy to the internet and with texting and emailing and all this stuff we live in the digital age with. They're willing to share stuff with one another. And I think that's super exciting to see that even Mufon, who, let's be honest, they haven't gotten the best reputation in the past decade or so, that they are stepping up and progressing and sharing their information and becoming more transparent. I think that's very

important as well. Right. There's a lot of strong opinions about Mufon, but I think that it's fair to say that, you know, they are out there and they are doing something. And I believe that they're a wonderful platform to meet people. I'm a freelancer. I don't share any of my cases with Mufon or the free program or anything. They're mine. They're private. However, I would not have met many of my most cherished mentors like Peter Robbins or Earl Gray Anderson or Michael Wrightout without Mufon. So if you're looking for people that have a similar mindset and, you know, they're not going to back away slowly before they turn around and run, it may benefit you to sign up on a Mufon Facebook page or attend one or two meetings. Just kind of feel it out. You don't have to be a member

to do that. Absolutely. And I mean, you mentioned two names right there that I'm very familiar with. Earl Gray is a close friend of mine and colleague. We have been working on a case that he investigated a while back, and just to see his reports and to see, like, the investigation that he did. I think Earl writes those reports with his own heart's blood. That's passionate. He is about experience or research in UFOs. And Peter Robbins, too, just two amazingly well-educated, well-read gentleman.

Michael Wrightout as well, you should get to know, He does UFO cold cases. Okay, okay. I'll definitely have to look into him. Yeah. I mean, I can tell that these people you're mentioning, these are a lot of the more empathetic people, I would say, in the experiencer sort of realm.

And Peter Robbins being a close mentor of mine as well, you know, I meet with them at least once a month here in New York City because we are both theater nerds at heart. We have spent our whole lives growing up in the theater. And then we just happen to have this UFO thing in common as well. So he always taught me when you are interviewing people, you have to have empathy. It doesn't matter if you believe them or not. Like you have to cast judgment aside and just record what they're telling you.

Do you agree with that? Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why I kind of moved away from those organizations because some people within them were starting to become almost exploitative of experiencers where they were just getting whatever interviews they could. They were kind of cherry picking which facts. they kind of felt would go along with their book or whatever, and then they would ignore the rest of the story.

So when I do the preservations that I do, you know, there's going to be a lot of stories that maybe most of it is very hyperbolic, but there's going to be one or two of those little gems in there that I would never have known if I hadn't paid attention the whole time. I guess I'd love to hear your personal approach. Okay, so like, how do you find these people that you talk to? Do they come to you? Do you go to them?

And how does that first interaction go? And where does it go from there? My approach is very, I feel like it's very gentle. I'm an experiencer as well. So when I approach someone, I don't approach them like I would a doctor. I'm not there to diagnose you or find out what's wrong with you. I don't come at you like a psychologist. I'm not there to study you or to write a book or anything like that.

You know, and I'm not there to investigate you and to rip apart every detail of your story to see if you're telling me the truth. I'm there, you know, I just want to have a cup of coffee with you. I want to learn them a little bit about you. And, you know, if you want, I'll turn on my reporter or I completely turn it off. And we just have a talk about, you know, where your life has been and where you're going and what are some of the interesting things you've seen that you can't explain. And that's where the term experiencer come from is just, it's someone that experiences. Yeah, and that's a good point.

I mean, experiencer is sort of a new term that a lot of us have been using in contrast to, abductee. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Like, what is the comparison between what we consider an alien abductee and an experiencer? Generally, I think the nomenclature abductee seems to be like you were taken against your will versus a contactee where you were kind of asking them to come contact you. I prefer experiencer just because it sounds, it sounds a lot nicer and more palatable than, yes, I am a local werewolf survivor. It's nice to meet you. I am a completely normal sane person I had the job. No, you can be an experiencer, and I believe John Mack used it quite a bit, but I don't know the

origin of the term experiencer. But I think, again, it's responsible and it's healthy to use these sort of terms, because like you said, a lot of these people aren't claiming that they were taken against their will. They were more than willing to experience these things with whatever they might be, whether it's a non-human intelligence or something multi-dimensional or I don't even know that the possibilities are endless and it doesn't put it in that small tiny box of we are dealing with little green men kidnapping people you know what I mean absolutely and people don't even like to say UFO anymore

they like to go oh well some people see anomalous aircraft just because the term UFO has so much stigma behind it. Years and years. I mean, when you really think about it, the term UFO was coined by Edward Rupelt, the guy who started Project Blue Book. So right there, it was already to sort of calm the nerves and be like, we're not calling them flying saucers anymore. We don't want people thinking these are like nuts and bolts, alien craft. So yeah, I do see that changing. You hear the term UAP a lot more. I'm going to admit it's really hard after being like conditioned for so long. to say UFO, but I guess we just got to move along with the times. I also, one of the things that I do, which a lot of people don't do, is I also interview

kids. Number one, I love talking to kids because they just have no social boundaries and they always tell the truth and I think they're hilarious. But when I come up to them, you know, I don't use any jargon and you can't because they won't understand. I was just going to them and I say, hey, sometimes your mommy talks to me and she says that you saw something weird. Can you please tell me about that? And just the things that, they'll take off with can be amazing if you just leave it open-ended like that without any suggestion or any parameters for how this story has to go. If you actually just sit down and listen to a kid, I think that they're the most incredible experiencers I've ever talked to.

Yeah, I guess I never really thought about that. We always have this image of like someone middle age having these experiences. But these things happen to kids as well. I mean, I spoke to many experiencers who they were recalling events that happened to them. when they were kids. So that's fascinating. So is that, would you say that's a big percentage of the stories you've been told were from children? No, but I do try to keep, I try to keep it well-rounded. I interview mostly adults within their late 20s to early 60s, but the people that I find that are mostly ignored are after 70 and under 10. And I think that, you know, they think that either they're making it up or it's for imagination purposes or maybe they just want attention. But I've talked

I've talked to some three and four-year-olds that have just explained to me these objects and these sites, and I'm like, you don't even have a TV. I know that you didn't see that on TV, and I know that your friend isn't coming up and telling you and describing the exact shape of a cigar UFO with a falling leaf motion. It's amazing. And especially the guys that are older than 70, they have some really amazing stories, too. Like, the veterans have incredible stories about the things that they've seen. I guess now that they're older, they don't really care about the government coming after them.

They're like, ah, fuck it. You know what? If they're going to kill me, they're going to kill me. It's time to talk. That's a really good point. Deathbed confessions are often some of the best stories we come across in this field. And you do have to, you got to listen because there's going to be some that could ultimately change all our work moving forward for sure.

Yeah. Are there any stories or anything, Nikita, that you would feel. comfortable sharing with us in terms of people you'd interviewed. I know, you know, there's a lot of rules when it comes to confidentiality and these people confide in you. But anything you could sort of talk to about with us on a broader scale in terms of people you've interviewed? Absolutely.

And I do take confidentiality very seriously. Sometimes if I take notes and then they're kind of uncomfortable with the notes, like I'll rip my paper out and I'll give them the notes, you know, I'll show them that my phone is off. But to also tie in your previous question of how people find it. me. It can be, you know, I'm a mutual friend on Facebook or just completely random. And when I mean random, I do mean random. And this is probably the funniest experience or story I have is that I was filming in Austin for the Travel Channel. I don't know if I told you this already, Ryan.

Christopher Garatano has a new show coming out called Strange World. Yes, yes. And it's premiering on the Travel Channel in October. Well, he asked, he asked me to come up to Austin and bring in Experiener because he had a whole episode about the midnight hour and the things that come out at night and, you know, things like that. Very cool. Incredible integrity. If you ever get the chance to work with him, I definitely recommend it. Yes, I love his work. So this experiencer and I were like, you know what, we're away from the kids for the day. Let's just go to a beach. So, you know, we got our swimsuits. You know, we very subtly packed a cooler with some adult beverages. And we went down to the beach. Well, we're kind of looking around and we realized that we had ended up at Hippie Hollow, which is a

nude beach. Nice. Okay. I like where this story's going. That's pretty new beach, but like much, much older people, nude beach that were hippies that just don't care anymore. But we're like, whatever. So I'm just laying there getting a tan. And a guy comes and sits next to me, very, very polite, just kind of casually chatting about the water. And I was kind of talking about the way that there were shadows in the waves. And he's like, you know, when I started experimenting with lucid dreaming, I started seeing a lot of shadow people and things were attacking me at night. And we got into this great conversation about lucid dreaming and control and the way that you can explore your consciousness without drugs. And I was so professional and I was so intrigued. And I just tried very hard to not pay attention

that his junk was like only 12 inches from my head. You think you're weird or if your story's embarrassing, you're never going to top him, I promise. Yeah. Wow. That is. is that that's i don't even know what to say to that i'm speechless i i can't say that i have ever interviewed a a nude experiencer yeah i'm i'm just that kind of a professional lady um but yeah sometimes they just they'll find me in the grocery store and tell me about a near-death experience um and then other times uh they'll usually contact me through either a friend or a mutual friend and those are the ones that are fun because i get to do the really in-depth meeting and

talk to them sometimes for several different sessions. And one of my favorite experience or stories ever was about a kid that was going to school on a school bus in the 60s. And he was sitting very close to the back. All of a sudden, he said the bus pulled over for no reason and all the lights out went out on the bus. And he said that the lights went out outside too. Like the clouds had just gone over the sun very suddenly and everything was very dark. And when he looked all around him, all of his classmates and the bus driver were just asleep and slumped back in their chair. So he kind of crouched down because he immediately started to feel very scared. And he said he didn't know what it was at the time, but he started to smell like that ozone heaviness in the air and that the school bus doors opened and one of those big hooded cloaks jumped up onto the school bus.

Okay. And he said it was so tall that it completely overcame the double doors that opened. It caused the bus to slump over and nobody woke up. and that he started pointing out different kids. And then he had the little, the tiny graves, like the ones that are only two or three feet tall, pick out a select two or three kids, took them off the bus.

He said that they were gone for about an hour, brought them back. And then just like that, the lights came back on the bus, the sun came back out, the kids started talking again. And nobody mentioned it at all. And he's like, did you guys, did you guys see that? Why were you all sleeping?

Like, what happened? And they're like, why are you freaking out? be quiet. They said that they just ignored him. But when the school bus actually got to the Air Force base where it was going, because he was going to school in an Air Force base, the guards ripped the bus driver off of the bus because they had four hours of missing time. Whoa. And this wasn't a remote road either. There was run road to the base and run road away from the base. Like you know that they had been backtracking looking for him and these 20 or 30 kids and they were just nowhere to be found. So that one scared the crap out of me. Yeah.

That one's my favorite. But some of them are overwhelmingly positive, where they feel like they're talking to, like, almost the energy of Gaia and the earth. And they kind of, they look at it that way. Other people have had experiences with what they feel are like shaman experience. Other people I've talked to, the cryptid people are always cool because they're not lying, but they just do some incredibly dumb things. Like, oh, there's a six-foot-tall dog man over there,

and I really want to take a picture of it. I'm like, why would you walk towards it? Yeah, that's a good point. You do hear that often that, oh, there's a big foot. I'm going to throw a rock at it and see how it responds. Yeah, I guess that's just classic human behavior. My other favorite ones are I always like to ask people about near-death experiences. And I think that that's pretty common amongst experiencer stories is that once or multiple times in their life,

they've had some instance where they were like, yeah, I should have been maimed or I should have died. and for whatever reason I'm okay. Yeah, that's a good point. A lot of people turn to NDE's in terms of abduction experiences. Have you found any sort of correlations between these two different things? Some of the correlations I found is I had one experiencer that literally fell off of a cliff, and he has no idea how he survived. He said he woke up in a very comfortable position,

and he was just snuggled up in all of these cactuses. He said that it didn't hurt until he got up, but he fell over four stories. He should have died. And then Earl Gray recently wrote about a near-death experience as well where his parents got into a car accident. And back in the day, you know, seatbelts were not a thing. They did a rollover and he was thrown from the vehicle. And when he woke up, he was in between three different rocks. He said that should have mashed my brains very prettily against the grass, but I was fine.

So it's almost like something protects them or watches over them. Other ones, I have no idea. That's a really good point. There is a gentleman I talked to that was in the, I believe, the Navy, and he had a close encounter experience on his way to his first ever, like where he was going to be stationed when he was in his like early 20s. And he had a close encounter experience. And he kind of brushed it aside.

He had a couple beers after and went to the, the local bar and then did his work. But he he attributes this experience that he had in his 20s to many really life-altering close calls throughout his life. He said, I should have died, like, at least five times now. And every time something either like miraculous or completely coincidental has saved my life. And I feel like that all started when he had this, when he says it all started when he had this close encounter. So that's really interesting. And it's extremely prevalent. And a lot of people say, like, oh, it's just coincidence. It's just coincidence. I'm like, if it was just coincidence, I would believe you at the sixth or seventh time that you would have died. Like, either you're very lucky or very unlucky. I haven't decided. Yeah. Yeah, the debate's still out on that one. Wow. Yeah, those cases are really interesting. Sort of, I guess, switching gears. All right. So these are the people who you genuinely believe and you preserve their stories. But there is that. other side of all this that we don't ever really want to talk about, but we have to. And that's the

people who clearly are either delusional or exaggerate or just straight up lying to our faces. So have you ever had that experience where you had to like stop them and be like, I'm sorry, I can't do this. Have you ever had that awkward moment? Because I know I have. I have. Thankfully, it's only happened to me once. I feel like I have pretty good people. skills. And it's a rule of thumb. And Peter Robbins helped enforce this into my brain. He said, stay away from fame and fortune seekers and stay away from somebody that's got something to prove and just hope you don't get stuck in an elevator with them. That sounds like Peter Robbins. Yeah. And I had a guy, you know, I agreed to a pre-interview. And in our pre-interview, in under five

minutes, he told me that he was the one that was astral projecting to Whitley Streber, that Whitley Strieber was writing about him, that he had worked at Roswell. He would had been in the underground bases of Roswell, that he, he had worked, he was a Montauk boy, he had had his mind changed around with the gorilla. And I was like, I was listening very politely, but I was like, you know, like something just feels really off about this. And it's, it's so important as an investigator to trust your gut and just say like, you know what, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I have some other things that I have to go do. And then, I never talk to him again.

I'm pretty old school when it comes to, you know, the art of interviewing and the art of journalism. Like I'm sure that you learned through trial and error where people are going to tell you a story. And sometimes you're going to ask them questions that will either trip them up or you're going to start at the end of the story or you're going to start at the beginning of the story. You're going to purposely switch around a couple dates and then see if they stop you and correct you. So it's very easy to lie to someone when you go from beginning to end. but when you start taking apart their story in different parts and having them put it back together, if they start really tripping up and having a hard time, I know that it's not a truthful account. That's a really, really good point.

A lot of the times you can tell because you're right, it's a script that they've basically memorized at that point. So if it's real, if it's genuine, you would hope that you could start from anywhere and have them tell you the same story. So I agree to those same sort of journalistic approach. is let me see, let me see how accurate they can be when I mix things up and put the pieces all over the place. And most of the time, they can do it. And that's when you know you've got like a genuine experience, or at least in my opinion. Absolutely. And then I also pay attention to body language, to tonal intonation. I prefer just having a manual voice recorder rather than a camera because I think cameras make people very fidgety and uncomfortable. But yeah,

fortunately for me, you know, I'm not famous. I'm not rich. Like I rarely have people that seek me out that want to lie to me for some sort of personal gain. Right. Right. And you know what? I think that's your biggest strength is you're not out there writing a book based on someone's experience and making all this money while they're getting the ridicule and the baggage that comes with coming forward. You know, it's tough. And when I wrote my book, I told you. I told every single person that I spoke to. Like, are you sure? Are you sure you want to do this?

Because once it's out there, there's no turning back at that point. And I would say 99.9% of the people in my book said, yes, I want to do this. I want to use my real name. I trust you with my story. And when they say that, I don't know about you, Nikki. When they say they trust you with their story and nobody else, that was enough for me to be like, wow, like, this is real now. I'm about to publish this thing with these people's accounts, and that's going to impact their lives. You know, their co-worker is going to read that.

Their doctor is going to read that. Their kids are going to read about this. It's crazy. It is. And you do the same thing I do. You've given them the incredible gift of their own voice back to them. And it's not so much that you and I work to have other people believe these experiencers. We work with the experiencers so that they can believe them.

You're not crazy and you're not weird. You just saw something that you can't explain. And that doesn't mean that there's any deficit that has to do with you. And those are my three big things that I always try to tell experiencers is that, you know, number one, just because something weird happened to you, it doesn't make you weird and that you should honor yourself because you survived. And I had an experiencer that when he was eight years old, he was being just constantly harassed by these entities. I don't know. what they were. They may have been the children with the black eyes or they may have been something much more sinister, but they kept trying to get him to lure other kids out into the forest, tell them like, oh, you know, your friends will believe you. If you bring them out here, you know, we'll show them our ship. You don't just bring your friends. Everything will be fine. Don't you want your friends to like you? And he said that because he wouldn't bring any more kids out there, that these entities made his life a living hell. And I had to stop him. And I said, you know, we really need to take a second here and honor eight-year-old you.

We need to honor him because he survived, and we need to honor him because of what he did. Because if he didn't do it, you wouldn't be here today. And there would be a lot more harm that would have been and done to all those other kids. And he just started to cry. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. It reminds me often of the work that people do with victims of trauma,

or I should say survivors. victim was the wrong word excuse me no you're on the right path there that's my other specialties I do a lot of research with trauma and PTSD and and that's that's kind of where I'm coming from is that these people

already have their story and they've already had the stigma and they've already had the heartache and the shame and everything else it's time to just listen and sometimes just listening is like more than these people could ever have imagined I'm like well your story was amazing would you like me to preserve that and they're like no I think

I just wanted someone to listen and then they disappear forever. Yeah, it's closure. It's closure for a lot of people to just get it out there, you know, no matter what sort of stigma or ridicule they may have thought would happen, just getting the story out there, whether it's written down or not, is enough for some people. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, what do you say to those people, Nikita, who don't put much stock into witness testimony, you know, when it comes to, like, investigating UFOs, they want evidence, they want trace evidence. They want that nuts and bolts flying saucer. What do you say to those out there who put absolutely no stock in witness testimony?

I always tell them, and it makes them mad, and I don't know why. I say, if you want to know how a car accident happened, stop staring at the tire treads on the ground and go talk to the people on the sidewalk that watched it happen. So I think that it's good, that it goes hand in hand with as much physical evidence as you possibly can. But I think that a lot of these things that people are interacting with, they don't leave much of that evidence behind. And we just, we just have them and their story. Well, I mean, in terms of that, what is sort of your goal in preserving these stories? You know, can they work in tandem with physical evidence? And what do you personally hope to, I guess,

what do you hope will happen with these stories when it comes to UFO in experience or research? I'm just so sad at how much testimony and how much evidence has already been lost because of stigma and how many people have passed away, you know, never telling their story or, you know, swearing someone else to secrecy. And, you know, as experiencers, you're not as alone as you think you are. There are other people out there that have seen what you've seen and that have felt the terror that you have felt and they've felt that loneliness. And I think that the only way for us to really explore that and to learn more about it is to start really just record. courting these the best that we can and start preserving them so that even if we're not getting much out of the research now in the future, I could meet one experiencer that has one story that could blow up my whole board with all my pushpins and make me go hallelujah.

That's such a good point. I'm talking to a witness right now. And as I'm going through all the things he told me, it just dawned on me. And I had to go back to a case that I've been looking at like almost eight years ago and finding these connections between them. And those are the moments in this research where you're like, holy shit. Like either these events could have been connected or were possibly dealing with the same phenomenon. So those are the moments, like you said, it doesn't matter if the case happened 20 years ago or today. If you can find correlations and even a common ground between witnesses, that's more than you could ever truly ask for

with such a complex phenomena, in my opinion. Absolutely. And for us, phenomena was different things back then. Like if you start researching lay lines or you start researching the fay and, you know, people that were drawn away by fairy portals, like these are incidences that were happening hundreds of years ago, just like missing 411 where kids would just disappear

or people would cross a river and never to be seen again. Like, where the heck are they going? We used to call them fairies. Now what are we calling them? Aliens. Good, good point. It's very valet. You're right.

It's like the phenomena repackages itself as we sort of move forward, whether it's like technologically or I don't know. What do you think? I think it's an interactive phenomenon and that it enjoys cat and mouse. It's like just when you think that you're on the cusp of something, it'll disappear for six months. What I find is that the more I ignore my work and the more that I'm not preserving experience or stories and I'm not kind of I've just kind of ignored it and put it aside for other stuff, they'll just start popping up to me like the people in the grocery store or people at nude beaches or people in bars. Yeah, yeah, they just keep coming. Whether you like it or not.

Like, hey, you know that thing that you're not doing? You should be doing it. I'm like, okay, phenomenon, fine. Such a good point. It push and prods you sometimes when you least expect it. And you're right, I love it. It's very Junkiel-esque, if you really think about it. Let's turn to something that you and I discussed off air

that is kind of the elephant in the room when it comes to researching alien abductions or experiences, and that's hypnotic regression. I can't tell you how many experiences. I've talked to who have said that they were put under hypnosis. And that's when I, I don't, I don't discount their experience by any stretch of the imagination. But that's when I really start to get worried when they tell me, oh yeah, I've been going to these sessions for the past two years. And I'm just like, okay, who did it? What are their credentials? What did they say to you? What do you make of hypnotic regression in the work you do, Nikita?

professionally the way that I do it and the way that I believe the science is finally catching up, it's that I just don't think it's necessary to do the hypnotherapy. There's plenty of other evidence-based therapies, and I've talked with several psychologists and psychiatrists about this, and they say, you know, so many people run to hypnosis to try and figure out, like, oh, there's these things that I don't understand, and I want to remember, and I want to remember. And they say, imagine that a lake is about to flood. Would you rather tear down the whole dam or would you open up the valves slowly and let the water come out as it would?

And I think a lot of people go to hypnosis. They go to someone that doesn't know what they're doing. They don't have any training in post-traumatic stress disorder. They don't have any training in suicide prevention or anything like that. You can still call yourself a hypnotherapist without any form of accredited degree in psychology or counseling. And it's just extremely dangerous. And when these people do end up having these recovered memories or dreams that they think are recovered memories, you know, they'll be fine after the session. But it could be days or weeks later.

Unfortunately, they end up committing suicide because they just can't come to terms with what they feel happened. And that's not just me saying that. I've had several experiencers and people from Mufon say like, yeah, we have followed up a few of those leads. And they did commit suicide after hypnosis. we think that's what really tipped him over. So one thing that I do like to suggest instead is that if you really want to learn more about your experience, like, you know, you know something happened, but part of your mind is just blacking it out, whether it's to protect you or whether it's something that the phenomena did,

you can try something called prolonged exposure therapy, and you can do it at home. Just get a recorder or, you know, use your recorder on your phone. Tell your story. Tell it with as much detail as you possibly can. If you were a little kid, how old were you? What color will your sheets? What color was your wallpaper? What does your rooms smell like?

You know, what kind of pajamas are you wearing? As much detail as you possibly can and just go through this whole experience from beginning to end. And then every night before you go to bed, just get really nice and calm, you know, no alcohol, no sleep aids, nothing. And listen to it on recording at least five to ten times. And the more you listen to it, the more details you're going to start to remember slowly. and the more you talk about it with friends that you trust, and the more that you listen to this story and you prolong yourself to that exposure,

the more you will remember. You just have to be patient. Your mind is not meant to be, like, cracked open like a walnut. You need to be careful. Yeah. You're suppressing those memories for your own safety. That's what your brain does. It keeps you safe.

95% of the time I'm against hypnotherapy. And then I talked extensively to Peter Robbins about his work with Bud Hopkins. and, you know, they worked with a psychiatrist. Her name was Aphrodite something or other. Yeah, they had very, very good controls. He worked with some amazingly talented and qualified people to do it safely. And I'm going to have to give it to Peter Robbins,

if you're ready to do it and if you're prepared to come with the consequences of knowing all of those details of what happened to you, then go ahead and try it after you've tried these other evidence-based therapies. I love that. I mean, it's so good to hear that someone who is working directly with experiencers say that because it's so hard when you're in this field and you make friends and you make colleagues and there are those people out there who are known to be hypnotherapists in the UFO field. And that's the first moment where I'm like, run, run for the hills.

If they already have this preconceived notion that you were abducted by aliens, it's going to influence the regression. In my opinion, again, that's nothing against, those people who are doing it, I do feel that they have the best intentions in mind, but they already come to it to the table with, you know, with preconceived notions. I can't say it any simpler. Yeah, and you can, you can, it's so easy, Ryan. I can be interviewing someone just with my body language.

I can give them suggestion and they're altering their story a little bit. If my body language is too tight and my arms are crossed and my legs are crossed, they think that I'm unhappy and that I'm not enjoying the story and then they start giving me more details and they start getting more nervous and I'm like okay first of all calm down you're taking way too much suggestion so I have to I have to be very careful you know that you don't hurt people more than you're trying to help them that's the whole point is you're trying to help them remember what actually happened not suggest what very much could have possibly been a dream yeah do you do you have you come across that often where you've you've done these sort of things and you're like, I think I don't know if this actually happened to them. It sounds like a really vivid dream. Or could it be both? I think that sometimes I work a lot with trauma and PTSD. And as you know, one of the side effects of like a head injury, like traumatic brain injury is hallucinations. And they sure as hell feel real and they smell real and they hurt just like a regular experience. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it happened. So I do a whole

bunch of research. I reach out to professionals and as often as I can, and I feel like, hey, I understand that you really want to get to the bottom of what happened to you, but you need to go to a doctor first because I don't want you to feel uncomfortable or starting to get stressed out. It's a delicate line you have to walk, especially with people that have post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, and then sometimes they'll have blackouts and sometimes they'll have false memories and sometimes you'll just be trying so damn hard to remember what that alien looked like. your brain will just feed you an image that you saw when you were a kid. It's why I do so much research is because I refuse to ignore the parts of the experiencing that I don't like.

I refuse to ignore that, you know, not everybody is going to tell me the truth. You know, there are going to be liars. I refuse to ignore that, you know, sometimes hypnotherapy does help people and it does help them get a better story. And I refuse to ignore, you know, that sometimes people will just add in extra details when they don't necessarily mean to. The intention isn't to mislead the person interviewing them. It's just, it's subconsciously you're just trying to, you know, fill in those gaps. But yeah, it's got to be tough. But what I will never, ever, ever shut up about is the exploitation of experiencers.

Like, I hate it. I hate the people that just rip out their innards and their heart and soul because they're trying to write a book or get a good TV show or something else. You know, like, you know, that's their life. They have to live with that. For you, it's just 30 minutes of a show or a chapter. in a book. Yeah, I don't have very much respect for some of the investigators in the field because of that, but people like you and Peter Robbins, Christopher Garretano as well, they're respectful, they're always doing continuing education. They're very gentle in their approach. You don't ever give

anybody gotcha questions. There was a gentleman I spoke to recently who's a pretty big name in Hollywood, and he was hired to do a TV show where he would go out and talk to A.m. and abductees and firsthand witnesses to UFOs. And they said, okay, good. Like, you already have the knowledge and you know the people out there who've had these experiences. So, like, we're just going to go in with a little, you know, a light tone. And he said, what do you mean, a light tone?

And like, you know, like, we just want to make it kind of lighthearted. And he's like, what do you mean lighthearted? These people's lives have been completely altered by these things. So it was so good to hear that a. a person in Hollywood who is known to be a comedian, wanted to do a legitimate UFO TV show, and cast these people in the right light. And he said, fuck, no, I'm not doing this.

He's like, and they were ready, I'm not kidding you. They were ready to, like, greenlight this thing, give him 10 episodes, and they were going to start filming in, like, two weeks. And he said, no. He put the whole thing behind him. He said, now is not the time. These aren't the people I want to work with. And I really had to respect him for that.

Definitely. True integrity in the field of UFO research, it can be hard to find. It can be extremely hard to find. And, you know, being one of those people who is now kind of in that wave of UFO television, it's not easy. I'm not defending production companies or TV networks. Their job is to entertain. And these topics can often be entertaining. But when it comes to actually putting people on television in front of a national or international, you know, grandstand to tell their story, you have to respect that and you have to do whatever you can. I mean, I have fought and chewed my way up to be like, no, we are going to do this serious. Do not edit me and make me say something that I did not say or that the witness did not say. and we need to just do this the right way. And I know there's a lot of people out there who regret having done television because of those reasons.

The reputations in the field are gone because of it. So it's such a fine line because, of course, you want to get it out there. You know, you want the topic to become legitimate and to get it out there so more people can get involved and it can become normal. But at the same time, it's just such a fine line between entertainment and, uh, and, and, what's actually happening. Absolutely. And for people out there that are experiencers, and you want to actually start talking about your story

and telling people about it, what you can do is just take aside one person that you trust and say, hey, I'd like to talk to you about something. You don't necessarily have to have an answer or an opinion, but I would just really appreciate it if you would just listen to me. And then go ahead and tell them some part of your story. You don't have to tell them the whole thing. and then just see how they react.

You know, are they supportive? Are they judgmental? You know, just kind of try and gauge their reactions versus the experience that you have. And that's very important because the more you start to tell your story, the more that you believe yourself. That's a really good point.

Sometimes it takes, like, one person to listen. And what I really respect about what you're doing to, Nicky Day, is I've heard you say that, like, you don't really care about the UFO field or these, if we ever get like a disclosure. For you, it's about preserving these stories so that these people can move on with their lives. Am I sort of on the right track with that?

Absolutely. I care about people and I care about them one-on-one and I care about, you know, not just writing down a good story, but, you know, how can I help you in a way to process this so that you can kind of come back to some sort of equilibrium or at least an understanding with yourself that something happened. that you couldn't control. You're okay. You're still going to be okay. And not to play this card because so many women do,

but being a young woman in the field of UFOology, like, I'm a phenomena in a field working with phenomena. People are like, oh, my God, what do you think? What do you think? I'm like, I'm not an expert on UFOs. I'm not. No one is. Yeah, nobody.

Yeah, Peter Robbins always told me, you want to be a euphologist, spin around three times? touch your nose and you're done. Exactly. Like there's no degree for UFOology. There is not. So like if you want to talk to someone that's very empathetic and accessible and willing to listen and I'm not going to sell your story for some stupid book, I encourage you to

email me. I read all of my emails. It may take me a while to respond. I am a single mom to a young child and I do work. But if you just want somebody to read it and then disappear forever or if you want me to read it and, you know, send your response. If you want me to read it and add it to my archives, you know, I would love to. I love hearing all different types of experiences.

And if you want to send me hate mail and tell me that I'm ugly and I smell bad and you're a hypnotherapist, you're welcome to do that too. The world is your oyster trolls out there. I mean, are you really successful if you don't have haters, Ryan? That is such a good, oh, don't get me started on that. We could have a whole episode about that. Well, I know you and I are going to be talking to one another in a couple weeks. We're both going to be attending AlienCon Los Angeles.

Yes, I'm on the Experiancer panel. That's Friday, June 21st at 1 o'clock. And I'll be sitting next to Kathleen Marden and Earl Grey Anderson and, yeah, a couple of other, like, really good experts in the field with some good information. Yeah, I'm super excited about that. I think you and I are doing our things at the same time, unfortunately. Ryan, you're just going to have to miss it. I'm sorry. Yep, yep. I'm going to leave my own. Yeah. Sorry, guys. I got to take a five-minute break here. I have to go watch Nikita not talk because other people more important than her have to do all the time. Welcome to the UFO conference circuit. That's kind of what it is. Yeah, I know we talked about that as well. I'm not a huge fan of conferences. I don't feel like we learn much there. But if you want to go meet your cool internet friends or stuff like that, I recommend conferences. It's a good point. Yeah. And I mean, with AlienCon, you know, it's such a fine line because a lot of us in the field, we don't tend to veer towards the whole ancient alien theory. And that's the people putting on this huge event. But you got to admit they know how to do a conference. And there are thousands of people that show up to this thing. And, you know, I struggled when I went to the first one because I'm like, this isn't really my thing. Like, it's more of like, like, like a Comic-Con thing and people are dressing up and whatnot.

But the more I thought about it and the more people I talked to while I was there, I'm like, oh my God, I got through just so many people. And now they can like dig deeper into the field of research rather than watch this TV show telling them that aliens built the pyramids. So it is such a very interesting relationship between the conferences and the actual work being done for sure. Yeah, I agree. I know that we can't all just get along, but hey, at least we're trying.

We're moving towards the phenomena, I think, instead of away from it, and that's good. That is a really, really good point. We're always moving forward. Whether we'll ever catch up is another question, but I think the journey is more important, in my opinion. So what comes next for you in your preservation work, and where can we find out more about that? Right now, my archives are not available to the public. I do take confidentiality very seriously. I do have a couple of them that have agreed to disclose.

I'm actually working with Christopher Cogswell this week. He's helping me to, we're actually going to start creating our own database full of markers and things like that, trying to figure out why so many people are more active than others. Yeah, and I will be on Strange World in October on the Travel Channel. I might be on there for 30 seconds. I don't know, but yeah. Yep, welcome to the world of television. If I see a posting on Facebook and your website, that means you're not working.

Exactly, exactly. Well, I'm super excited to hear that you're working with Chris Coxbow. I will be on a panel with him at AlienCon. He is one of the best people in the field right now. So to hear that you guys are working together, I can't even imagine where that's going to head. So I have to thank you so much for coming on somewhere in the skies today and sharing all of this with us, Nikita. Yeah, thank you, Ryan. I can't wait to see you guys at AlienCon.

And yeah, just remember the last thing. And it's the last thing I always tell all my experiences before I give them a hug. It's because I like to hug. But it's just honor yourself because you survived. That's it for this week's episode. If you've had a UFO sighting, a close encounter, or any type of anomalous experience,

and you're looking for a safe place to share it, you can email and cake cranda directly and confidentially at Preserve Your Experience at gmail. Again, that's preserve your experience at gmail.com. You can also seek her out on Facebook by searching for NKranda. If you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review someone in the skies on Apple Podcasts, your Android apps, or wherever you listen to the show from. It helps us gain visibility and find new listeners.

We're on Twitter at Somewhere Skies and Instagram at SomewhereSkies pod. I want to take a moment to thank all of my Patreon subscribe. You are the reason the show continues, and your support means more than I could possibly tell you here on air. If you'd like to help the show and receive bonus episodes and many other rewards, please consider becoming a Patreon subscriber today. For more info and to contribute, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you, as always to the E1 Podcast Network, Roke Planet, KGRA Radio, and a very special thanks to you for listening.

I'll see you here next week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. I remember having a very profound realization about my dog when I was on mushrooms one Halloween. He sat by me, and I realized with immense gratitude that dogs are all sentinels. We've merely fooled ourselves into thinking that we take care of them. but they are truly our guardians sent here to watch over us. They are angels. And yes, we need to feed them and bathe them. And yes, he peed in the hallway.

And I wished that angels didn't pee in hallways, but they do. That's the thing about altered states. They don't show you what isn't there. They show you what was always there, hiding in plain sight.