Somewhere in the Skies - Paul Hynek: THE UFO DAD

Episode Date: January 26, 2020

On episode 145 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan is joined by filmmaker, Project Blue Book consultant, and professor, Paul Hynek. In this conversation, Paul talks about what it was like growing up in a home where UFOs were everyday conversation over the dinner table. We then hear all about his father's experiences working with the U.S. Air Force in their official investigation of UFOs; Project Blue Book. What does Paul think of how the History Channel television series has treated his father's life and career? And what memorable moments does he have from his father's extensive look in to some of the most famous UFO cases of all time? This and much more as we dive into the life of our "UFO Dad" from one of his actual sons!  Guest Bio: Paul Hynek has worked in tech and entertainment and is currently a business consultant. Paul is also a former adjunct professor at Pepperdine University, and is presently a consultant for HISTORY’s TV series, Project Blue Book, based on a real project to investigate UFOs from 1952 to 1969. Paul is the son of Dr. J. Allen Hynek, an astronomer who worked with the U.S. Air Force investigating UFO cases from 1948 to the end of Blue Book in 1969. A character based on J. Allen Hynek is the lead character in the series. To learn more, follow Paul on Twitter @PaulHynek. For tickets to Contact in the Desert, use the promo code: CLICK HERE Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms apply. Today on the show, we talk to the actual son of our UFO dad, Paul Heinek. Even with Lieutenant Colonel Friend, who is my father's favorite of the Air Force directors, when they would go investigate a case, the first thing to do was to determine if it seemed to be legitimate. If it is, then right away their paths diverge. The Air Force Director, Lieutenant Colonel Friend, would try to see if it posed a risk for national security, whereas my father would be trying to think about how to replicate it, how to get more data points to prove it and to demonstrate it to other people. So even then with a great person like lieutenant colonel friend who is the best of the lot, the best draw my father could have had,

they will be going down different paths almost immediately after determining that there's something to a report. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host Ryan Sprague. A little crash course on the focal point of this week's episode before we get to our guest, Paul Heineck. Joseph Allen Heineck was born in Chicago, Illinois on May 1, 1910. An introduction to the stars came after Heinek was bedridden with scarlet fever at the age of seven. Having run through their supply of children's books to read, his mom turned to textbooks, with a high school edition on astronomy capturing Heineck's attention.

Heineck excelled in math and became editor of his school paper in high school. By then, he'd also developed an interest in more esoteric subjects, particularly the works of the Rosicrucian secret societies, and hermetic philosopher Rudolf Steiner. After earning his Bachelor of Science from the University of Chicago in 1931, Heineck remained at the school to pursue a doctorate in astronomy. His graduate studies took him to the Yerkes Observatory at Wisconsin's Lake Geneva, where he recalled his focus on the cosmos left him largely in the dark about the events

like the rise of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany. Instead, it was an interstellar event that impacted his career. With the appearance of the brilliant Nova Hercules in the night sky in late 1934, Hynek was tapped to take readings of the supernova at Ohio's Perkins Observatory, which was affiliated with Ohio State University. After earning his Ph.D., he joined Ohio State's Department of Physics and Astronomy in 1936. In 1948, Heineck, then director of Ohio State's McMillan Observatory, agreed to help the U.S. Air Force investigate reports of

unexplained aircraft sightings, including one that described the lightning-fast flying saucers above the Cascade Mountains in Washington. This was the now-famous Kenneth Arnold's sighting. As the astronomical consultant on Project Sign, Heine combed through the reports and sorted them into categories. There were those which were simply astronomical observations, like the appearance of a meteor, those explained by, meteorology, like an unusually shaped cloud, and those which captured accounts of man-made objects

like balloons. That left about 20% with no clear explanation, though Heineck felt that answers would eventually surface and return to Ohio State. By 1952, with reports continuing to trickle in, the Air Force had rekindled the operation as Project Blue Book. Heineck was also back in the fold, and now granted the license to investigate the alleged sightings in the field. While he'd harbored plenty of skepticism in the first time around, he found his assumptions challenged by the rational recollections of witnesses and began thinking about the legitimate scientific study of these unidentified flying objects. By the 1960s, Heineck had moved on as the chair of the Department of Astronomy at Northwestern University

and was at odds with the stifling oversight of the Air Force. With the arrival of new intriguing cases, like a reported sighting of alien beings by New Mexico police officer, Lonnie Zamora in 1964, Heineck began conferring with other curious Northwestern faculty members in what he called his invisible college. In March 1966, Heinek was dispatched to investigate reports of unusual lights in separate areas of mission.

Rush to conduct his findings amid a horde of reporters, the scientists soon announced that the sightings were possibly the result of, quote, swamp gas. The term became a national joke, but Michigan congressman and House Minority Leader Gerald Ford was not laughing and demanded the Armed Services Committee pick up what he felt was a shoddy investigation. Called to testify, Heinek used the occasion to argue for an extensive, transparent study of UFOs, marking his first public break from the Air Force. With a formation later that year of the University of Colorado's Condon Committee, Heineck was thrilled that UFO research had finally risen to a level of national importance. However, he was disappointed when the committee concluded two years of study with the report that there was no need to expend further resources on the subject of UFOs.

and in 1969, Project Blue Book was formally shuttered for good. No longer hamstrung by the Air Force, Heinek in 1973 formed the Center of UFO Studies, or QFOS, to further legitimize the field of, quote, euphology. Cufos enjoyed some success in its early years, leading investigations of reported sightings, while also fostering working relationships with law enforcement agencies. Heineck left Northwestern in 1978 to devote his full attention to QFOS. By the early 1980s, fundraising efforts were flailing, and Heinek was forced to run the operation out of his home in Evanston, Illinois.

In 1972, Heineck sought to lay out a clear explanation of his studies by publishing the UFO experience, a scientific inquiry. The book is most famous for introducing the close encounter classification. The close-encounter terminology entered the pop culture lexicon later in the decade with the release of Stephen Spielberg's sci-fi epic close encounters of the third kind. Heineck served as a consultant on set and even made a brief cameo in the film as a scientist. In the 1970s, Heinek was a well-known face for uphology, thanks to appearances on programs like The Dick Cavett Show and In Search of.

He was a popular and well-compensated speaker on the college, college circuit, and even delivered a presentation on UFOs to the United Nations in 1978. Heinek would marry his second wife in 1942. Her name was Miriam Curtis, who also became very popular in the UFO field as well. They had five children, Scott, Joel, Paul, Ross, and Roxanne. Jay Ellen Heineck passed away in Scottsdale, Arizona on April 27, 1986, at the age of 75. He was by far one of the most influential and important figures to ever investigate and research the UFO phenomenon in a official capacity. In 2019, the History Channel released a television docudrama called Project Blue Book, based on the case files of J. Allen Heineck.

Heinek serves as the main character in the show, navigating his way through each UFO case, and suffering the pressure of military involvement, working against his scientific rigor. And just like in real life, the show's first season explored the growing cover-up of the UFO issue, and Heineck's attempt at unraveling it while remaining a steadfast scientist through it all. The first season of the show was the number one television drama on cable,

and with the second season now in full effect, we are seeing the work of Heineck played out in the mainstream public, like never before. Jay Ellen Heineck, to a large number of us UFO researchers, is often referred to as our, quote, UFO dad. But today, we're going to talk to one of Jay Ellen Heineck's actual sons, a man who was there for many of his father's most important investigations and his work with the Air Force. We are speaking to filmmaker, Project Blue Book Series consultant and professor Paul Heinek. We get the inside look at what it was like growing up in a home where your father came home to tell stories of flying saucers, strange alien beings, and so much more. Here is our conversation with Paul Heinek.

So this episode is under the Project Blue Book umbrella, so I'm sure most of my listeners, if not all of them, are familiar with the name Heinek. But for maybe anyone just hopping in this episode, Paul, could you maybe give us a little background? I'm done, who you are, what you do, and your connection to the main character in the History Channel television series, Project Blue Book. Sure. I'm happy to be here, Ryan. Thank you. I'm a consultant in tech and entertainment and a professor at Pepperdine University, and I'm related

to the main character in Project Blue Book. He was my father. And so for me and my four other siblings, UFOs is kind of a family business. One of my earliest memories is UFO ornaments on the Christmas tree. What we would all give for something like that. People ask me, what was it like growing up with? Well, whatever you grow up with, good or bad is normal. I don't understand what it's like to not grow up with UFO witnesses coming over to your house for dinner.

Yeah, exactly. I can imagine, you know, anyone who, even... even spoke the acronym UFO in front of you or your family. Like, that was just a recipe for hours of conversation, I would assume. Yeah. Now, in terms of your father, so this is J. Ellen Heineck, and could you maybe, again, just for those who may not be too familiar, an idea of who he was, what he did, and how he eventually became to work for the Air Force?

Yeah, my dad, Jayle Hinek, born and raised as a little Czech-speaking boy in Chicago. went straight through, he got his PhD in astrophysics from the University of Chicago, and became a professor at Ohio State and Harvard and Northwestern, worked on the proximity fuse in World War II, which is one of the biggest technological advancements, and then helped, under the direction of Fred Whipple, helped organize our project Moonwatch, where he set up 12 observatories around the world

and organized the first citizen crowdsourced project to man these observatories with amateurs to track the first satellites. So they were the ones they were able to spot Sputnik and track its trajectory. So he's giving twice daily press briefings and talking to Congress. He's on the cover of Life magazine and all kinds of TV shows for that. But what he's best known for and certainly what the lens through which we're looking at him tonight is that he was an astronomer at Ohio State University. and in the late 40s, the Air Force called him and said,

hey, we need an astronomer to help us find explanations to UFOs. And that was something at the time called Project Sign, which then became Project Grudge, which then became Project Blue Book. So my father agreed he was a patriotic guy, and I imagine he thought this was just going to be a short-term, part-time job on the weekends, just to, you know, easily explain away what people were misperceiving as Venus, or a weather balloon or whatever other prozac explanation that he thought there was. I don't think he dreamed that this would become a 20-year hobby, let's say, and something

that he'd become well known for. Right. I mean, even getting him, you know, into a major motion picture, which we'll definitely touch on. And now a TV show. It's crazy. Like the trajectory, this is all sort of gone on. So then we have a history channel television show, Project Blue Book, that came about.

which is, you know, the life and career of your father, seen through the lens of a, you know, a quote, unquote, fictional television show, but based on true events. So how did this, how did this all come to be, Paul? And what is your, what is your connection to the show itself? Yeah. So you've had David O'Leary, their creator of the show on. And Sean too, I believe, yeah. And Sean Jablonski, the showrunner. Great.

Well, they're both great guys. So David came up with, David has always been interested in UFOs as has Sean. And David latched upon my father as a really interesting sort of dramatic core around which to tell a story. Because you have a fairly sympathetic character who is, you know, an astronomer and astrophysicist and family guy who doesn't believe in UFOs. But by virtue of seeing the accumulated weight of the good evidence comes not to be. believe, because I don't think scientists really believe, but to accept the weight of the evidence. So it's sort of a character arc that many people can follow and say, hey, if this sort of Midwestern, you know, salt of the earth guy starts thinking there's something here, maybe I

should too. And so they reached out to my brother Joel and I, we both live in Los Angeles, and asked who we would serve as consultants on the show. And so we talked with our family, and we decided we would. And so we're, pretty deeply involved in the production process. We read the scripts before the pre-production scripts and give input. I've been to the set three times and I actually have a cameo role coming up in season two. And I've spent a lot of time with Sean and David and the cast, my TV mom and TV dad, and I've done a lot of publicity for the show. Right. And it's so good to hear that history and, you know, the creator and showrunner

are so passionate about both the topic and just, your father's work. Like, it was so clear when I had them on that, like, they do their research. This isn't just them, you know, cherry picking a case your dad looked at and then creating a completely

different story. Yes, they have to change things. It's TV, it's entertainment. You know, that is one of their biggest defenses and one that I use too when, you know, the UFO purists come around and say, this is all so fabricated and fictionalized like it's

such a detriment to Heinex work. And I guess, Paul, yeah, maybe we could get your thoughts on that. Do you think the show helps or hinders or somewhere in between when it comes to your father's work? That's a good question. And it's, you know, we can also talk about close encounters and his affiliation with that and his hesitancy before that. But, you know, I think my gut feeling is that my father would have said, you know, I'm going to put on my slippers and my robe and sit in my comfy chair and have a bowl of popcorn and have a rollic and good time. I think he would have thought that, look, this is a show that takes my mom and dad and what Sean and David and Aden and Laura, who played my dad and mom respectively really wanted to get was not complete accuracy, but authenticity

of the characters. I think that's the important part. You know, it's an interesting dramatic premise to take real life people and some real live events or real reported events. And, and then sort of stretch them and dramatize them. So the main thing for us, for my brother and I representing a family, was that we felt that they would treat our parents in a respectful way, and we think they have. So my mom, I think, would say,

oh, it's a bunch of nonsense. You don't need to have me in there. But I think they would find the show to be fine. You know, like I said, it's a respectful look, primarily at the career of my father, but also at the arc of my mother, who becomes an important figure in euphology in her own right. And so it's, you know, it follows that trajectory of my father and tries to take that authentic core of his real life character and see how it would react with highly stretched circumstances.

Right, right. And, you know, for anyone out there in show business or just watches a lot of television, like you understand that this is not a documentary. It's a television show. There needs to be a way to keep it going and to create a story. So I'm so happy to hear that. that your mother's character is going to be a more pivotal character in the second season here. I could already tell from the first two episodes, like, that she's going to become a much bigger part of this, I think. Yeah, which was in real life. And, you know, we talked with them. And I had, I talked with Laura quite a lot, who's a wonderful actress, and had her talk to my sister and told them, look, my mom wasn't just sort of a prop character. She really became, and I think for a lot of people that met my parents, they'd see my dad and say, okay, well, it's interesting that this scientist believes in that.

But when they saw my mom, who I think a lot of people could relate to much better, who was very practical and not given to flights of fancy, I thought that, I think that probably would have been even more convincing. And so what they decided with the show was to have her be sort of a little bit more trepidacious at first. as she gets her sea legs. And then her character arc is that she gets much more involved in it and much more active as well. That's awesome.

Yeah, just from the first two episodes of season two, I'm really looking forward to see where they take that, especially with our other characters, too. I mean, we have this sort of amalgamated character of Quinn in the show who, for anyone who watch the first season knows, this is kind of, you know, a collection of all different people that worked with Project Blue Book or just Air Force. So, yeah, that relationship actually really stuck out to me in these first two episodes of season two with Quinn and your father, Heinek, and they're growing trust in one another or, you know, that breaking of that trust.

So, yeah, what do you make of all that with this character that wasn't actually working with your father, but clearly was an inspiration by people he did work with? Right. And you're right. He's an amalgamation of several Blue Book Air Force directors. primarily repelt and friend. And one, a kind of fun fact about Michael Malarkey, who's a wonderful guy and great actor, is that he grew up 10 minutes away

from Wright Patterson Air Force Base. Oh, wow. Which is just kind of a spooky little. And, you know, it's interesting. And, you know, there's so much drama built in that because it's kind of like a buddy cop movie, but each of the cops has a very different boss. You know, the boss for Quinn and the Air Force directors

was the Air Force in National Security. and the boss for my dad was, well, science, and they're very different masters. So even with Lieutenant Colonel Friend, who is my father's favorite of the Air Force Directors, when they would go investigate a case, the first thing to do was to determine if it seemed to be legitimate. If it's not legitimate, then they don't need to worry about it. If it is, then right away their paths diverge. The Air Force Director, Lieutenant Colonel Friend, would try to see if it posed a risk for national security. whereas my father would be tried to think about how to replicate it, how to get more data points to prove it and to demonstrate it to other people.

So even then with a great person like Lieutenant Colonel Friend, who is the best of a lot, the best draw my father could have had, they will be going down different paths almost immediately after determining that there's something to a report. So there's so much drama just baked into that. Yeah. And I think that's what's really coming to the surface with the show is the drama. know, it's fun and cool to think about the 50s and espionage, Cold War, UFOs. But then when you really put the microscope on your family in particular and how it affects them with your father's work, that's, I think, what an audience can really relate to. We all have that person in our family where we might not be sure exactly what they're doing every day.

But it's clearly affecting them and it's going to affect the family back home as well. So, yeah, yeah. I'm so happy to hear that each character is kind of coming into their own with the second season. So, yeah, I can't wait to see where it's going. My brother, Joel, is a character in the show. And I asked Sean, the showrunner, hey, am I going to be in the showrunner? And he looks at me over lunch and he says, you will not be born. I said, come on, you don't have to say that.

That's super creepy. That's a little, yeah, that's a little godline there. Yeah, come on. Nobody ever wants to hear that. Yeah, right. Well, well, well, we'll see. We'll see. Hey, maybe there's going to be, what, Paul, 12, 15 seasons of the show.

We'll finally get to the day you're born, maybe. Yeah, but then I think as a joke, they'll make me like a drooling idiot. Right, right. So I got some Twitter questions here. When they heard you were coming on, they all jumped on this within like an hour. So thank you to everyone on Twitter. Lance has the first question here. And he says, my understanding from Jacques Valet is that the case that turned your father around was the Socorro case.

Did he ever speak to you about this case? Yeah. And, you know, first shout out to the great family friend Jacques Valet. You know, it's hard to pick one case because it's really the accumulated weight of the evidence. But that was a case, if anything like a straw that broke the camel's back. And yeah, indeed he talked about it. There were just several aspects about it that, you know, and the cruelt. credibility of the witness that he just found to be really quite good.

It's definitely, it's one of those cases I always turned people to when they want, you know, first of all, a credible witness and second of all, you know, trace evidence even. Yeah. And if I remember correctly, was this the case where your dad, like, hitchhiked to get to the site or something like that? Ah, I, you know, I don't know. I get them all mixed up. I wouldn't be surprised because he, he was kind of maniacal in pursuing these things. So I can easily see that. I think I remember reading in a biography that that was the car broke down that he was with the other people with the Air Force in.

And he wanted to get there knowing full well, like you got to be a first responder to these things. And they were waiting for another government car to show up. And your dad was like, F this, I'm hitchhiking to get there. So, I mean, that right there. That's like the epitome, I think, of your father's passion to, you know, get to a site, investigate. and find answers. So this is interesting. This wasn't a question,

but a little comment from Chris, when he was nine years old, his mom's office was right below the QFOS in Evanston. And after school, he would, he'd go to her office and then go upstairs with your father and help him file and stuff,

envelopes and whatnot. What's this guy's name? His name is Chris. I don't have a last name. Ask Chris if you remember, a very intelligent, super mature boy hanging around the office. And if not, then maybe he remembers seeing me.

There you go. Ooh, you set that one up. That was great. I love that. He basically says, you know, he just remembers having that moment with your father that he'll never forget. So that's pretty cool. Alan asks, I would love to know if there are any files or investigations that you may know about that never saw the light of day from your father. or any archives or info that your father hasn't released yet that we might see maybe someday.

In reality, UFOs are seen by people from all walks of life every day all around the world. They've also been officially investigated by the U.S. government and by governments of several other countries, too. That's just a small element of what makes the strange UFO topic so incredibly fascinating and fun to explore. That's what we do on the UFO podcast, Unknown. I'm Jason McClellan, and I invite you to explore the weird and wonderful world of UFOs with me and my friends and colleagues on Unknown. Unknown is available on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, IHeartRadio, Spotify, and all the usual podcast places. One of the sort of sad things is that my father's files are not in my possession at the moment.

And I have an idea where they are, and I'm trying to secure them. So there may be some unreported gems and nuggets in there, but I don't have possession of them at this moment. Gotcha. This kind of ties into a question. I have for you as well, Paul, is the re-release of the Heineck report, this book. Right. And I know you wrote the forward for that, and that kind of ties into this. What sets this book apart from the original one that your father came out with?

Well, the impetus for this was basically the Mufon Publishing Company finding that there were pirated copies of the book on Amazon. So they called my brother Scott and I. My brother Scott is the oldest, and he's the executor of my parents' estate. and told us about that. And we said, well, yeah, okay, that's bad. See if you can take it down. And that was a really nice good faith gesture by Jeff Herman. And then he asked if we'd like to republish, reprint the book, to make an official copy,

and if we would write a forward. And I said, yes, but I think it would be nice if all five of us, of all five of the children, contributed to the forward to sort of freshen it up a bit and provide a perspective, of a sort of modern family perspective to the book. And so now that's what we have online. So for people who are interested, they can buy an officially published book with a new forward on Amazon. That's awesome. Yeah, I got my copy about a month ago. And again, you know, I have the original, but this newer version, you can now look at it through newer eyes, you know, younger, fresher eyes, I think. So I was really happy to see that come out.

Kibbs on Twitter asks, what is the biggest issue you've had with how your father is portrayed on the TV show or on the flip side, your favorite thing that they've done with your father? Huh. You know, it's interesting. When I watch this show and even when I'm on set, it's kind of like a parallel reality. You know, when I went to the set the first time, I had never heard the word Heineck spoken aloud even at family reunions. because I was saying like Heinek to the set and I see Hynek on boxes and all this. So it's like this sort of parallel reality that's a different reality than my day-to-day life. But then there are moments such as in episode 10 of season one where Mimi is walking down the street with a jacket and has she has kind of a brooch on. And I look at that. I said, well, that looks familiar.

And then I realized that was actually belonged to my mom. and I had given it to Laura a year and a half before production and forgotten about it. Wow. So that those kind of things collide, it really, it's really impactful on me. In terms of what I don't like or like about my dad, there's not really anything I don't like because you sort of talked about how the premise of the show, there was one moment that was really kind of eerie when I was on the set outside. And it's a scene in episode one where Aidan is driving around and being chased and chasing

another car. And he's actually doing all the driving himself. And between takes, he would get out of the car and come over and talk with me. And after talking with me and going back to the car one time, he turns around. He's walking away from me wearing that sort of trench coat and the hat. And I just felt my dad's presence. And it was really quite something. So that was one of the moments I remember the most or other times watching the show.

And I'll just get in, you know, enveloped in the drama thinking, hey, this is pretty cool. And forget what it's, who it is. And then I'll hear Alan and Mimi. I'm like, oh, that's right. This is my parents. That's my TV mom and dad. Yeah. And for the record, Ryan, it's not super creepy at all to have the Game of Thrones super villain play your TV dad.

No, I'm sure. I'm sure. What an incredible casting choice. I mean, that is one thing I'll stop and say here. The casting for the show and the performances are just top-notch. And thank God, because I remember when everyone in at least the UFO community first heard about the show, of course we're excited, but we're like, oh, no, if this is like some cheap little production and they're going to do them so wrong, and then boom, that first episode hit.

And I think me and a lot of other people were like, holy shit, man, this is like, they really went all out for that first season. And then season two just seen the first two episodes. It is clear that they're working with a lot more this season for sure. Yeah, I agree. I think the casting is fantastic. And one of the interesting characters is played by Michael Harney, who plays General Valentine. he's one of the top brass at the Air Force who may or may not try to kill my TV father. And he's a wonderful, versatile actor, and I talk with him.

We did a publicity event in Chicago and talked with him about playing what some people would consider a bad guy. And, you know, what we agreed on is that in his role, he's got to protect national security. and this is almost like a permanent wartime setting in the Cold War and the space race. And if you've got this rogue professor who's going off the reservation and may disclose the most sensitive national security interests, as that general, you may sort of put him out to pasture and sleep just fine that night. And that's how we approach the role. And yet in reality, in college, he was a big fan of my dad and bought his books.

There you go, but there's the dichotomy right there. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I feel like that is a lot. I think people within the military and government probably respected your father more than they would ever vocal, you say, but they had their job, too. And we know Blue Book was created as, like, a publicity thing to debunk the UFO phenomenon, or at least the threat of the UFO phenomenon. That's right. And I recently came across some correspondence between our... Arthur C. Clark and my father, and he says the exact same thing that you just said, Ryan, where he says,

publicly, I shoot down UFOs, but privately, I quite agree with your attitude and your stance, Dr. Heineck. Interesting. I'm sure there's a lot of other scientists and people out there, too, who would say the same thing. And until you get them, you know, four deep bourbons at a bar, you're not going to hear their honest, true thoughts on. Paul, I'm going to sort of melt two questions here together from Twitter. comes from mega guillotine and the undead gaucho people have the weirdest twitter handles mega geotin and the undead gaucho yes yeah i i did a an hour long keynote speech in spanish in argentina in november so that may be where this is coming from oh it might be wow wow so you're bilingual as well no i'm i'm a language guy but my best languages are french and japanese

But what I realized was all I had to do is read in an animated manner a very good translation of what I would have said in English with the dramatic pauses. And that would come across just fine. And I wouldn't need an interpreter who would effectively have the time of my presentation. And it went really well. Good. Oh, good. I was going to ask. How did they go?

Good. That's good to hear. Okay. So they ask, what are your personal thoughts on the UFO phenomenon? And I guess maybe tying this in, did you and your father ever have any experiences together of seeing anything out on an investigation or just, you know, in your everyday life with him? Let me unpack that second one first. So I, you know, to try to earn my junior field investigator merit badge from my dad, had been talking to some guy on the phone who said he was an alien and he could prove it by staring at the sun. and he lived in suburban Chicago, and somehow I convinced my dad to go with me to go visit him.

So we go out there, we knock on the door, and an elderly couple answers the door, and we said, hi, is George here? And the woman said, kind of sheepishly, yeah, he's in the basement. So right away, this didn't seem to be starting off very well. So we go down in the basement, and there's George or whatever his name was, and he had this kind of helter-skelter look in his eyes. And the room has got pennies everywhere, just pennies, thousands of pennies glued to everything you can imagine. And he starts talking about copper and how important copper is. And that's apparently why there are pennies everywhere. And then at one point, he turns out the light and turns on a black light,

and he pulls out this big, huge hunting knife with like these kind of runic-like characters on it, painted in black ink on the knife. And I'm thinking, oh, my God. So I stand between my dad saying, I'm going to have to take it. And then my dad or I said, okay, that's okay. Let's see that you're looking at the sun, which is sort of our escape ticket. So he said, okay, so we turn away. We go outside, and there's a car, again, with thousands of pennies glued all over it,

including on the tip of the cigarette lighter. I mean, the attention of the detail was really something. And he starts looking directly at the sun. Now, this is in Chicago, so it's not by the equator. but it's still a very sunny day. And he's staring at the sun and finally my dad realizing that poor fellow is just hurting his eyes, said, okay, okay, okay, we believe you, we believe you. And we left.

And I don't remember speaking up the whole way home. Yeah. What, yeah. I mean, I guess all you could say is, well, that just happened. Yeah. So the first question, what do I believe? You know, I lean towards what my father and Jacques Valet came to. to believe that the solution for UFOs is likely not at least exclusively extraterrestrial.

There could be part of it. And for something as enigmatic as UFO, it's probably unlikely that there's one solution. But for my father and Jacques Valet, the extraterrestrial hypothesis failed to explain completely the reports because first of all they have to travel from vast distances and kind of tweak Einstein and relativity in the nose on the way here. We have super sensitive instruments that detect objects entering and leaving our atmosphere and yet we don't have the corresponding reports of those objects entering or leaving the atmosphere to go along with the sightings that we have here and they exhibit a lot of comfort with our earth, gravity, and atmosphere. Then they also exhibit, you know, the

sort of violate our known laws of physics and sort of show up here and there like a Cheshire cat. So it doesn't seem to be consistent with what we would think to be sort of a nuts and bolts craft from another planet. Then there's the sort of astronomical distances and why they would come here, et cetera. So my father and Jacques and others began positing about something perhaps even more exotic like interdimensional, some other explanation for this. And that's something that really resonates with me. And so I've been doing my own research interest as I met with a friend of mine recently a couple months ago.

And he asked what my dad thought and I gave him much the same answer I just gave you. And he said, you should read a book called Alien Information Theory. And I said, wow, that is one of the coolest sounding book titles that I've ever heard. You had a A. I will definitely read that. And so I have that. It's a fine book by a guy named Andrew Gallimore. And it talks about the commonality of experiences of people who take the super powerful psychedelic known as DMT who feel that they are transported to another dimension and see what Terence McKenna calls machine elves and feel that that is basically where the fabric of the universe is created.

Now, this is super trippy stuff. But leaving no stone unturned, including guys who can look at the sun, in suburban Chicago, I decided I needed to try that. So I started doing DMT to see what I could find. And I felt I was transported to this realm, Ryan, and I felt this presence. And I asked them, once I got my bearings, are you what we perceive of as UFOs and aliens? And the answer I got back was, we can't explain in a way that you would understand. And I said, well, I understand no.

So it sounds like there's some amount of yes in what you're saying. So, you know, I will let the listeners make up their own minds about the veracity or, you know, the intrigue factor of a powerful psychedelic. But for me, it's a worthwhile and super fun research avenue into a potential providence theory for you ever. Wow. Hey, I might have to take you up on that, man. Go next level with my UFO research. That's, that's amazing. I mean, I mean, kudos to you for having the courage to do something like that. But, yeah, it freaked me the hell out, to be honest. Any mind-altering drug kind of scares me, but that's not to say I haven't done it in the past. But that's really interesting. And the fact that you got that kind of answer, You know, from somewhere in your, let's say, consciousness or something that was connecting to this, that's absolutely fascinating. And there's a book by Rick Strassman called The Spirit Molecule. Really interesting things to say about DMT and the sort of body of user experiences. And after reading that, some of the commonalities and the very similitude of the user experiences kind of reminded me.

of what I've grown up with in terms of UFO reports. And I thought, okay, apart from the fact that just sounds really fun to do, sounds like there is something of interest here. And I want to take a look at this. So I thought, hey, this is a legitimate way that I can try to pursue one thread of my father's research. That's really interesting, man. I'm wishing you the best of luck with that. And I know in season two of the TV show,

we're going to be diving a little bit into some mind-altering stuff for mind manipulation. So, hey. That may happen. Yes. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. Well, I got to ask you, you know, in terms of like modern day uphology, just a couple more questions here, Paul, if you don't mind. The modern day ufology, the UFO phenomenon and disclosure.

And sort of the overall conversation of UFOs, you know, post-A-tip and New York Times story, Navy sightings. we even have a bunch of more scientists and astronauts coming forward with their own thoughts and acceptance on these things. So where do you think we're heading in terms of the entire UFO discourse, I guess? We seem to have sort of hit this new precipice. Project Blue Book is part of that, making UFOs mainstream. So what do you think? So I'm of two minds. One, there is definitely a U.S. government cover up by definition, because in the Freedom of Information Act, document releases words are blacked out. So there is a cover-up. How far does that cover-up extend? And has the Air Force or the Army or Navy or whoever retrieved, you know, crashed saucers

and alien bodies and have they been reverse engineering things low these many years? I don't know. But there is a cover-up. Now, I also think it's hard for government agencies like that to keep secrets for so long. Well, you can say, well, Bob, Lazar, and others are coming out. But still that secret is more or less kept, and that's hard to do. But with, you know, the Nimitz and especially the Navy saying things like, yes, the Nimitz account, and Kevin Day, the chief petty officer is a friend of mine. and he's one of the most sincere people you can meet,

one of the most credible witnesses you can imagine, with the Navy saying, yes, that video is real. Oh, and by the way, we've seen hundreds of these things, don't really know how to report them and could use a hand. To me, that's more compelling than any single case. Why would the Navy do that? There must be so much more than what they're letting on for them to basically go belly up and say,

how about a hand? So what, you know, my friends Richard Dolan and Steve Bassett, who are, I think, sort of two of the world experts on disclosure and the various nuances about disclosure, I've told them that, look, I don't know that there's this much information to disclose, as you guys say, but I'll tell you that, and hearing their timelines and fitting in the Navy pieces, it certainly seems consistent with the government acknowledging that the secret is going to come out and that they want to sort of prime the pump and control the narrative as best they can pre-disclosure. You know, if you were the government, and again, well, this sort of assumes the government's acting in a monolithic block that all the agencies are together. Right. Which we know is not the case. Yeah. Right. Or maybe they're competing, you know, to try to get the word out, I don't know. But the Navy stuff, that is some of the most compelling stuff I've seen and really makes me think that in addition to legitimizing

the phenomenon, which didn't need to happen in my mind, but that there's a government that has a motive for disclosing that information, and it makes it seem more likely that that motive is subsequent disclosure with a capital D. And then, but one of the things that I find interesting, Ryan, in this area of fake news, you know, we've always, you know, through my life, life we talked about how the grand sort of reveal would be a UFO landing on the lawn of the White House.

Well, just think about that for a minute, if that happened today, and CNN and Fox and NBC and whoever else has a camera pointed at this UFO landing on the lawn of the White House. What percentage of the population would simply refuse to believe it?

Probably a lot more. Yeah. Right. I think this would go, this would not be a partisan issue. You'd have Democrats and Republicans saying, no, I don't believe it. I don't want to believe it. You know, this is a doctored photo. And so I think one of the things in the, you know, the back rooms of government or governments who are perhaps sort of planning a disclosure, the refusal of a wide swath of the populace to believe whatever they say has to be a significant concern, which wouldn't have been the case 20 years ago. Right. And kind of,

you know, in this day and age, it defeats the purpose, I think, of what Project Blue Book originally stood for. And that was making the public think one thing. So, yeah, wow, that's... That's... You know, that Sean talks about one of the reasons that they set the show about UFOs in the 50s

was that Project Blue Book was really one of the first instances of widespread government fake news and trying to control the narrative. Right. And wasn't that what the Condon Committee or the report was? was about? Well, they're, they're sort, you know, the government, the Air Force brought in my father because the military has a lot of respect for academics. And they sort of used them as cover for what they want to do. So in 1953 was the Robertson panel cooked up by the CIA, which basically

said, there's nothing to see here, folks, please disperse. And then the Condon Committee in 1969, which the, which said, again, there's nothing here, which the Air Force pointed to and said, hey, look, all these brainiac academics say there's nothing there so we can, you know, fold up the tent and go home. The interesting thing about the Condon report is if you read the conclusions at the beginning of the report and actually read the report, the report makes a very good case for UFOs, but it was clear that the fix was in. So the conclusion of the report bears no relation to the actual data of the report. And again, I feel like this all kind of leads to your your father creating his own UFO research organization is, look, we did our job.

I was not convinced that everything could be explained. What was it? 700 something cases, never solved. And now he's going to... About 2,000 or about 5%. That's right. That's crazy. That's such a big amount.

This is an entity that was largely a PR exercise whose mandate was to explain every case. And not to get to the bottom of it, not to let the chips fall where they may, but just find an explanation. So if you've got that strong military directive and you still can only explain 95% something's rotten in Denmark. That's right. And like you said and like Kevin Day would say, I think even the military needs a little help in figuring this stuff out. And the fact that our own military is willing to say that now. And now the Army's getting involved with To the Stars Academy, whole other story for another time. But it is interesting. that all the different military branches are now starting to kind of look at this topic

and we'll see where that goes. But to sort of close this out, Paul, what do you hope people will take away from both the TV show, Project Blue Book, and the real life story of your father? What is like that one thing you hope the public will take away from all this? Well, works of fiction. And Project Blue Book is largely fiction as the creators and everybody will will readily admit. And like things like Close Encounters, which was a seminal movie in its time, they serve a valuable

purpose I feel. I'm all for documentaries and books, factual books about UFOs. But the thing that they don't often accomplish is to widen the tent of belief of believers in the phenomena are acceptors of the phenomena and of destigmatizing this kind of curious phenomenon. Fictional pieces like Close Encounters and Project Blue Book to a degree in that it, you know, goes into the fictional world a good deal. Do that and that they say, come for the story, stay for the UFOs. And they widen that tent.

They open up the dialogue. They make it more acceptable for people who may not have felt comfortable. before to actually talk about it and relate their own experiences. So I think it serves a very good purpose besides just being, you know, a super fun drama of, you know, let's say you have a family of four people or some friends together, a couple of them believe in UFOs, the other ones don't. They can see the character arc of my father, who is a character that they could relate to and my mother as well and say, okay, well, you know, they're not trying to believe something, but they can't just

sweep everything under the rug, hmm, okay. And then with the show, they have the interviews at the end with, I've been on there and my brother and Jacques Valet and Richard Dolan and others, and they can actually learn more about the actual reports of those cases that are portrayed in the show. So I think when you have these dramatizations, it strikes at a wider swath of a potential audience than the already converted. Absolutely. And like you said, like one person at a time, I think, where this word disclosure is going to happen. I don't think, like you said, there's going to be a UFO on the White House law. And I think each person having a UFO encounter or citing and telling it to someone is disclosure for them.

And hopefully. And I think what we may have happened, Ryan, is that by the point where there could be a signal event, a single event that would constitute a disclosur. there may be enough people to believe it already that you don't really need any kind of disclosure. So maybe it's more of an evolution of individuals as opposed to an act of the government. I think that's where we're heading to. I think this whole, you know, Navy UFO thing. That's just the beginning of getting this out to as many people as we can. And then, you know, that collective consciousness maybe someday will be ready.

And whatever controllers are behind these phenomena. We'll be like, boom, all right, you guys are good. Let's do this. Galactic Federation. It's easy to imagine that what the Navy has done is not their final word on the subject, but an initial salvo. Whether or not that you believe that in UFOs and you believe that the government is using the Navy to do this grand disclosure thing, certainly seems like the Navy has an agenda that hasn't quite concluded yet. To be continued, as always, I guess. Paul, before you go, is there anywhere you can direct us for your work or any upcoming events you'll be doing?

Yeah, so we just had the viewing party on Tuesday for the first episode, which was great, and had a lot of MN folks there. And I'd like to say that I'm happy to have accepted the position as chairman of the advisory board of Mufon, which is the largest UFO research group. Wow, congratulations. Yeah, so I'm being sucked. And, of course, I'm also involved with the Center for UFOs studies, or the Jay Allen, Inax, Center for UFO Studies. All these groups play nicely together. In terms of events, I'll be speaking at UFO conferences.

I'll be at UFO con in February in San Francisco. Contact in the Desert in May. Oh, perfect. International UFO Conference in September, the Mufant Symposium in July, and probably a few other ones snuck in there somewhere. Busy, man. I won't keep you any longer than. That's amazing.

see you at contact in the desert. Cool. That's a great one. Yeah, it's going to be my first time there, so I'm really looking forward to it. First time out in, you know, Joshua Tree, Palm Springs area, too. So any tips on how to stay cool, please let me know. All right. And thank you. Thank you so much for doing this.

Okay, my pleasure, Ryan. Take care, buddy. That's it for this week's episode. You can keep up with all of Paul Heineck's work by following him on Twitter. At Paul Heinek. If you haven't already, please take just a few. moments to subscribe, rate, and review somewhere in the skies on Apple Podcasts, your Android apps, or wherever you get the show. It helps us gain visibility and find new listeners.

We have a special bonus episode with Paul Heinek, where he talks about one of the most important lessons he learned from his father about investigating UFOs. And we get Paul's take on one of the topics of our previous episode on the Betts sphere. Was his father in possession of the strange sphere that supposedly went missing. If you are a $5 a month or higher contributor to the show, you can listen to that right now. If you want to learn more and become a Patreon, it's a great way to support the show and get rewards in return. So just be sure to visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies.

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