Somewhere in the Skies - Project Blue Book with David O'Leary and Sean Jablonski

Episode Date: January 7, 2019

On episode 90 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan is joined by both David O'Leary and Sean Jablonski, the creators and showrunner of Project Blue Book, the highly anticipated new television show on the History Channel. Project Blue Book is based on the true, top-secret investigations into Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) and related phenomena conducted by the United States Air Force from 1952 to 1969. The investigations were headed by the noted astronomer, J. Allen Hynek. What prompted creator, David O'Leary to pen a script based on the life and career of J. Allen Hynek? What cases did he find most compelling to bring to the mainstream? And just exactly what is up with that alien in the tube that we keep seeing in many of the publicity photos? Next, Ryan speaks with co-writer and showrunner, Sean Jablonski. He runs us through the inception of the show, to casting, researching, and eventually producing and running the entire endeavor. How close to real-life is the show? And what can expect in the first season? All this and more in this week's jam-packed episode on Project Blue Book. Guest Bios: David O'Leary is a New York native, recently hired to pen the sci-fi thriller RADIANT SKY for financier The Coalition Group, and his sci-fi/horror script MISSING TIME is under option with Amasia Entertainment. A producer on two sci-fi features in post-production for release next year, PARALLEL (Bron Studios) and ELI (Paramount), O'Leary is also a former development executive, having worked for Bellevue Productions, Valhalla Entertainment, Kopelson Entertainment, Rogue Pictures, Warner Bros., and Industry Entertainment. O'Leary is represented by Paradigm and Zero Gravity Management. O’Leary currently resides in Los Angeles, California. Sean Jablonski is a graduate of New York University’s film program, breaking into the business as a staff writer on HBO’s highly acclaimed prison drama, OZ. After his stint with HBO, Jablonski created and produced the Showtime series, THE HOOP LIFE before going on to write and produce for LAW AND ORDER and Michael Mann’s CBS drama, ROBBERY HOMICIDE DIVISION. He then served as Executive Producer (and occasional director) on FX’s NIP/TUCK for its entire six season run before writing and executive producing the first season of USA’s hit legal drama SUITS. Continuing his relationship with USA, he then created and produced the relationship drama SATISFACTION which ran for two years. Recently Jablonski served as executive producer and showrunner on the Netflix series GYPSY starring Naomi Watts.  Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening and Closing Theme Song, "Ephemeral... Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey y'all, Ryan Sprague here. As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume. But it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the show is worth. You'll be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growing. So please, help Somewhere in the Skies now by becoming a page.

To contribute and to learn more, visit www.patriot.com backslash somewhere skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. We have a situation in West Virginia. Family report has seen something falling from the sky. I get down there right away. I need you to meet someone first. The name's Dr. Alan Heinek.

You want me to investigate flying saucers. I want you to help me prove to the public the truth. They don't exist. is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprigg. One evening, I arrived home to be greeted by a mysterious envelope in the mail.

Upon opening it, my eyes immediately lit up. Inside was my own personal Project Blue Book file with not only authentic UFO case reports and photos, but a package titled Video Evidence. This all came, of the history channel for their brand new show, Project Blue Book. It was clear they meant business. In that video evidence, it was actually the first six episodes of the show for me to review.

Well, the review's coming soon. But for now, you're going to hear directly from the show's creator, David O'Leary, and the showrunner, Sean Jablonski. What prompted David to write a show based around the work of Jay Allen Heineck? what attracted Sean to the project? And just exactly how close does the show stay to the actual life and work of Heinek and others involved with Project Blue Book?

Tune in right now to find out. David, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies. My pleasure. Happy to be here, Ryan. Awesome. So I did get to briefly see you at an event the screening of the Bob Lizard documentary by Jeremy Corbell. I did not get to talk to you. It was too crazy, two nuts. And I was going to be talking to you in two days anyways.

I know. But I love how it's such a small world. And I always love stuff like that. It's like we sat like, what, three seats away from each other. And I were and here we are two days later talking. And it's like, it's great. I love stuff like that. I mean, it's a sign that we are meant to have this conversation.

Exactly. The stars have aligned. And I think they have for you guys as well. And we're going to get into that. But so I had the immense pleasure of seeing the first six episodes of your show. And I've had a lot of people asking me for, you know, for specifics and asking me what I thought about the show. I haven't told them anything yet. The only thing I'm really telling them is, you know, it's almost like growing up with the Harry Potter books and then seeing that first movie for the first time.

Everything is lifted off that page. It's brought to life for you, specifically for you. And for someone like Jay Allen Heineck, the hero, the godfather of the first time. euphology. I got chills, man, the first time I heard Aiden Gannon. I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, you know, listen, you're one of the first people who wasn't involved in the creation of the show to see the show. So I really genuinely appreciate that. I'm really glad you liked it. Thank you. And yes, I mean, I was given the first six episodes in possibly the most elaborate, beautiful press packet I've ever seen in my life. Did you get a press kit? Those things are incredible. I was I was really,

really blown away by the level of detail. Our publicity and marketing teams are, they just, they, they understand the show. They understand what's, what's interesting about the show. And,

yeah, oh, that's great. Yeah, you got the, the leather satchel. Yes. Doing with the leather satchel and it's like Hynex briefcase

essentially, right, with his notes and all that good stuff. It was amazing. Yep, some newspapers. It was like opening a Christmas present. I'm not going to lie,

then. But it's, It shows, I think, that, like, again, the marketing is behind you guys. They believe in the project. And after seeing these first six, like, I can tell you right now, before we even get into the interview, I am in 100% as a very, very passionate euphologist. You know, we were worried when we first heard about this project. I'm not going to lie. Because you never know what's going to happen, how things get distorted.

But again, we will get into all that. Absolutely. Listen, I understand that, too. I mean, this is a subject matter that is near and dear to my heart. And, you know, it's when you make a television show a lot of, you get a lot of, you know, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen and a lot of different voices. And, you know, so it's all about, you know, we wanted to try to create something that was, that was authentic and true to the era and authentic and true to Project Blue Book.

But of course, you know, we're not, we're not a documentary. We are a dramatization of these events. But with, you know, what was important for us is just that, like, we try to, to present it as as as as as truthfully and as thoroughly as we can and then you know while also remembering that you know we're a piece of entertainment and we're here to entertain as well as educate you know what I mean unlike a documentary that's really designed to like educate so yeah yeah man well I mean I have to ask you personally what was your your interest in the UFO topic or even your knowledge of Project Bluebook before you even started this specs good sure um pretty big on both

interest and knowledge just in that um you know UFOs and and and you know the whole subject matter has been a lifelong you know I guess obsession of mine my friends joke how I somehow found a way to monetize something that I would end up talking about at like three in the morning at a party to anybody who would listen to me I just you know and I think that I think that this subject matter does speak to people and it's to certain people in that way and it certainly did to me I grew up in New York city, as did our showrunner. And I remember, you know, I went to see Communion, Whitley Stryver's Community. They did a feature adaptation of that, of that. Yes. In 1989, starring Christopher Warkin, and I was, and I went and saw that in theaters as a nine-year-old. It dragged my dad to take

me to, like, the one theater in lower Manhattan and it saw it. And it, you know, it freaks me out, but my interest in that subject was already there then. And then, you know, in high school, I would read, you know, every book, book I could get my hands on. And, and I think my interest really started with sort of the present, what was then the present day UFO phenomena of the 80s and 90s. I'd watch all the, you know, the Fox News documentaries and, you know, greatest UFOs caught on tape kind of things. And I really credit there was a 2005 documentary when I was out here in L.A. I was in my early 20s called Seeing as Believing by Peter Jennings.

And in that documentary, it was all about America's history, bizarre and fascinating history with UFOs and it talked at length about Dr. J. Allen Heinek. And that began for me and his whole journey of going from somebody who was a complete UFO skeptic and a, you know, this civilian astrophysicist recruited by the Air Force to go out there and explain what people were seeing. And, you know, and of course everyone, you know, probably listening or many people listening, know that over the course of his tenure, you know, working on Project Blue Book, he became completely convinced of the other side. I mean, he became a believer. He became somebody who thinks that, you know, UFOs are worthy of scientific study and also convinced that that the U.S. Air Force knows that and that

Project Blue Book itself was a disinformation campaign used in many ways to control public perception, explain away UFOs and all that. And so that journey and that story was just so fascinating to me. And so that's, I would say, then is when I really started to delve it just into the history and just got my hands on like Dr. Allen Hinex books. You know, I read the great Captain Edward Pelt's book, on unidentified flying objects. He was the first director of Project Blue Book. And then, you know, but listen, I wasn't, I wasn't in L.A. working as a, as a, as a, as a, you know, sort of a struggling, rising screenwriter.

And, you know, one night basically having a glass of wine with my wife, like, we started talking about, what if we did, like, you know, a real life UFO conspiracy thriller, but set in that era, set in the time of mad, you know, of madmen, essentially rooted in real life cases. And I, and I was like that, and it just kind of sparked for me. And that began sort of the journey of developing the show. Well, I have to ask you, you know, in terms of when that spark hit, you knew you wanted to do it, you started doing all the research. How did you come up with the specific cases that you actually cover in the first season of Project Blue Book? I'm interested in hearing that. Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, I mean, the good news on something on this kind of idea for a television series is there's just an endless amount of cases.

I mean, Project Blue Book itself looked at over 12,000 UFO cases from 1952 to 69, over 700 of which remained unexplained. And even the ones that they did have an official explanation for, in many cases, that didn't satisfy, certainly the witnesses or even some of the people involved at Blue Book. So, I mean, for us, it was going back, it was reading, you know, the books, you know, definitely in Edwin Pelt's book. And just looking at all the research and trying, I think what we tried to do is I mapped out, like, I had to build like a Bible for the show. So I mapped out certain seminal cases that I thought were going to be big. You know, the Lubbock Lights case, uh, Flatwood's Monster was always interesting to me. Obviously, we, we, uh, explore the Gorman incident, the famous UFO dogfight case, uh, in the first episode. You know, uh, I don't want to, I don't want to give away every case we expressed.

Of course, of course. But even though I'm, you know, I'm sure people, you know, that information will be out there eventually. For me, what was important is that we try to examine sort of the, the, how do I say, it's the variety of different types of UFO cases that there are. Because I think some people like, I think, you know, especially people who aren't that knowledgeable in the subject, people think, oh, like a UFO case is somebody seeing like a saucer shaped object in the sky. But there is such a, that's, and certainly that happens and certainly that happens a lot.

But that is just like sort of one type of UFO case that occurs. You know, people see weird orbs of light that seem to operate intelligently. People see V-shaped craft, like the Lubbock Lights. You know, you know, people see like, you know, there's the famous child's-witted case where they saw like a mysterious sort of rocket-shaped object that sped right past their, their civilian aircraft. Like, there's, you know, there's all kinds of sort of, you know, weird kind of high strangeness, as they call it, right, to UFO phenomena.

And I think we wanted to set out to make sure that we try to cover the, as much of that as we could in terms of just the actual nature of these cases, coupled with, you know, we are a drama series. So we wanted to feel like it all builds and intensifies as we go along and that and that it takes us on a journey of discovery as we're taking these characters on their own, you know, sort of character arcs and character journeys. And we were big on like trying to explore like, okay, what's what's the case about this week, given the witnesses involved, given the pressure, you know, they're facing.

So, you know, what are the thematics there? and how can we explore those themes and what's going on in the lives of our characters as well, so that it all sort of feels, you know, what's happening up in the sky represents what's happening on the ground to some degree and vice versa. So that we felt that we were building a, you know, a truly organic mystery and a mystery that reflects on the people investigating it. And I mean, you have some actual historical figures scattered throughout what I've seen in the show, you know, whether they're UFO researchers, astronomers, scientists. Right. And then you have Heinek himself, this actual person.

But on the flip side of that, we have sort of these amalgamations of characters that represent people throughout UFO and Air Force history as well. You know, someone like Captain Michael Quinn, Malarkey's character. So what was it like sort of creating these characters around an actual person as well? Yeah. I mean, that was that was really interesting. I mean, you know, the show began and lives around, of course, Dr. Allen Heineck, and we were fortunate

enough to get two two of his sons have come on board as consultants. And that, once that process began, I mean, that really helped us just open up. I had done my research into like, you know, into him, everything I could find on him. And also, you know, you learn a lot

about somebody even when it's unsaid just by reading their work, right? So, like, I had read all Dr. Allen Hynex's books. So you know, you know, you know the kind of way in which he thinks about the world. You know, his books just, just are a window into his mind and just how much of a meticulous, precise scientist he was. So I wanted to make sure that that really came across.

But, you know, really getting some of those personal details from the people who knew him best was fantastic. We also got a chance. He's not a character on the show, at least not yet, but I got a chance to interview the last living director of Project Blue Book, which is this man named Lieutenant Colonel Robert Friend. And he was a Tuskegee Airman in World War II. He's got to be, I mean, I'm not kidding.

I think he's like 100 years old now. I interviewed him, right? Right when we sold the script, he was one of the first people I sat down. Because what I really wanted to do is get firsthand knowledge of like, how does Project Blue, how did Project Blue Book as a division of this, you know, as an investigatory division of the Air Force? How did it function? Like, what was it like going to work there? Like, how did cases get come in and all that kind of stuff?

And he gave us, I mean, and he also, of course, worked with Dr. Allen Hane very closely, so gave me all kinds of insights into working with him as well. But that was like, that was huge for me. I mean, like, one of my prized possessions is I have a signed copy, you know, of the report on Unidentified Flying Objects written by the first director of Project Blue Book, but signed by the last living director of project. Full Sir. And of course, inside that book is filled with all my notes for the show.

So I'm just like, it's a little project Blue Book, you know, it's a little jam of mine. But he, and listen, he said something really interesting. things. I mean, I asked him things like, you know, if you, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, you know, uh, represent, uh, you know, an intelligence that we have yet to under, an understand or a mystery that we've yet to explain, uh, would that information be divulged to the American public? And he said, no. He flat out was like, no. And I thought that was really interesting that like, you know, and he believe, you know, I think he, he, he, he came down on the side that like, that there is

something of genuine scientific intrigue happening here that needs to be studied and understood. I think I think he's a he he's a you know a very rational guy but he he was great. So I mean like, you know, helping, helping sort of, you know, having some of those people who really were around Heinek and worked with Heinek and knew Heinek at home and all that kind of stuff really helped us paint a much more clear picture of the man. And then with the composite, you know, with characters that became composites, the nice thing there is it does is you, you know, we get to root it in real life people, real life Air Force generals, real life directors of Project Bluebook, real life, you know, we have a Mimi Heineck, which is the real name of Heinick's wife.

But it does give us the freedom to, as well, kind of not just have to deal with that one person's life, but be able to kind of explore through those characters, some other historical things that were occurring at the time. Well, that's a big part of what I've seen of the show so far is, you know, taking someone like Mimi Heineck into consideration. There's a lot more to this entire story that you're crafted than just investigating UFOs. I mean, this is clearly a time of extreme paranoia, Cold War, paranoia, espionage. And these are things you tackle in the show.

One episode in specific, I won't give anything away. But it, we see this image in a lot of the press of Heineck looking at this alien. And a lot of us were like, hold up a second. That never happened. Right, right, right. Really, this is where they're going. But then after actually seeing that episode, dude, I completely got it. I'm like, oh, okay.

Yeah. That's what they're doing. So there's a lot of misdirections. There's a lot of twists. And I assume that's what happened to Heineck at this time. The minute he thought he had a conclusion, you know, at least in your version, that changes in an instant. So how was it sort of writing those undertones to the show?

We wanted to make sure, much like this phenomenon itself, you know, it's sort of cloaked in mystery and it's cloaked in being unidentified and misidentified, you know? And what was important. for us is that while you know in so many of these cases people genuinely have a an experience that they that they determine to be something of another worldly nature there is almost always some sort of like kind of rational you know explanation and so we wanted to thread the line where it's like listen like you know very there's I think the totality of cases proves that there is there's something genuine nature of this phenomenon that goes beyond just misidentifying things I like that's indisputable and I and I and I think the show does

I think we can say that the show does tip its hand a little bit in that direction. But at the same time, it's also true that many of these cases do have earthly explanations or are like, or potentially could. And so I think we were always walking that line between is what you think you see, what you really see. And I think, you know, that alien in the tank is a great example of that, of us, you know, we wanted to be, we wanted to be as truthful in our storytelling as the nature of the phenomena is. itself, which is that in some regards, you know, UFOs hide. You know what I mean? Like, you see them, they are seen on the fringes. They are, they are witnessed and then they're gone.

They are, they appear to be one thing, but then we're not so sure. And I think that it's, it's important that the show to properly represent that does that to some degree as well, you know, and I, and that's why. And while, you know, many people I think who tune into the show will be people who are at least curious about the subject matter or who are more or even more convinced of the reality of this subject matter. I also, for me, my goal is also that this show will, we'll sort of hook in people who maybe don't know a lot about this phenomena or have dismissed it outright as not being something that is, that is real, that may take another

look. And at the very least understand that, listen, we're exploring all sides of the issue as well. You know, and that's what was so important for us. It was just benchmarking the show every week in real life, searchable, Googled, like, you know, did this really happen? yes, you know, and throughout we tried to find these bench ranks. Was this a real person? Was this a real program? Was this a real thing? And over and over and over again, you know, we basically took what were those historical ingredients and then and then just tried to, you know, fit it all together in a compelling, you know, drama and a compelling, you know, story that would, that would, you know, that would educate

and entertainer, I guess. Yeah. And, you know, I imagine that's, that can't be easy. And one of the, one of the big things that it comes down to for me, David, is, you know, we had this last year, this New York Times article come out about a secret Pentagon UFO program. And people immediately started coming to people like us, the UFO quote unquote, field and saying, oh my God, is this like the government investigated UFOs? And I'm like, yeah, like 50 years ago, you know, and whatnot. And that was the last program. We were told that they officially investigated UFOs. Lo behold, it wasn't. So for your show to come along, at this time when we now learn that the government has maybe not so much been lying,

but at least keeping major secrets from us in terms of this topic. It mirrors what you guys are doing so much. It was a clever publicity tactic on our end, and it just wasn't. I mean, when that's, when that year of Times bombshell came out, we had just started shooting and we, you know, that article went all over our offices and all over everybody in production and up on set. People are like, what is going on here? Because it was just so insane that we were already kind of making a show about this.

And here it is on the front page of the New York Times. And listen, it also is a great piece of evidence to say that, listen, undeniably, this is a subject matter that the U.S. that the government takes incredibly seriously and that the old kind of, you know, cap of, listen, we determined in 1969 that UFOs don't present a threat to national security, which was sort of the final official sort of termination of Project Blue Book doesn't hold water even for them and certainly doesn't hold water for, you know, the, you know, the many, many people who have sightings that continue on to this day. And I mean, I think that's one of the things that's so that I hope really resonates with people is, is like, this isn't a show about a mystery that occurred in the 50s and 60s. This is a show looking at the origin of a mystery that continued that existed before then, most, you know, almost certainly.

and that continues on very much to this day with, you know, and real, and it's sometimes hard to like sifts through all the clutter, but there are real genuine UFO cases that happen all over the world all the time, you know? And that, I mean, listen, that was a, that was a big part of me being able to sort of when I was frankly pitching the show to history and getting the show Greenlit to series was like, listen, this is, this is, this is topical for so many reasons, you know. And not only just the fact that we're dealing with a mystery that persists, a UFO mystery that persists, but even some of the other things that you touch on, Ryan, like, you know, the fact that we're going back and we're looking at, you know, aspects of the Cold War and fear and paranoia, fear of invasion, fear of foreign invasion, fear of nuclear war, things that unfortunately in our present day reality are still present. And then, of course, this notion of, you know, Project Blue Book being the beginnings of sort of fake news, controlled, controlled. old information, you know? I mean, like, Heinek himself would be the first to admit that there was a very, there was a mandate on Project Blue Book to basically debunk and explain away these cases. And he did so in a few occasions that never sat right with him. And he did so because he was a man of science and wanted access to the cases themselves. And that came for me just as fascinating. Like imagine being being a man in those shoes where it's like, how do you expose, how do you expose one of the great mysteries when you're, when you're an instrument of the cover up, you know, to some degree. So it's, you know, for me, he was just put in such a unique position as a scientist. And I think, you know, I think he knew he uncovered something worthy of study.

It's why I devoted the rest of his life to, you know, to studying this, you know, even outside of the government. Right. And I mean, I mean, if there is no clearer message in terms of someone hired to debunk UFO cases from a scientific standpoint or to just flat out give an answer that isn't what it actually was, to then turn around and start his own. UFO research organization. That says more than anything else. I could possibly imagine, no matter what we're dealing with, if it's aliens, if it's, you know, another country, interdimensional. Right. Big foot. I don't care.

It comes down to the fact that he had a job. He did his job. He struggled with that job for a very long time, which we see in the show. And then to come out on the other side saying there's a core phenomenon, I'm going to keep looking into it personally. Please come join me. Like, that's a journey I think so many people want to take. Yeah, I hope so. I hope you're right.

And like you hit it on the head, too, just in terms of Heineck was a scientist first. And kept an open mind both during Blue Book and certainly after, you know, he definitely would, you know, definitely knew that UFOs and, and we're worthy of scientific studying that the phenomenon is genuine. And but, you know, but was very still open minded to what, what is the nature of UFOs and what are we really dealing with? And, of course, he was open to the, to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. which was, which is probably the most popular hypothesis or most mainstreamed understood hypothesis.

But, but it was just as vocal about the possibility, like, are we dealing with some sort of intelligence that is interdimensional or on a hyperplane where like sometimes, somehow like our planet is theirs as well or our reality is connected to theirs in some way? I mean, that's fascinating to me. You know, he proposed, you know, are we dealing with, are we being visited by our future selves? Do UFOs represent the reality of time travel? I always found that to be a fast, fascinating theory. And then of, you know, and then of course, you know, the notion that it might be interplanetary or evidence that we live in a simulated reality or, you know, the list, the list goes on and on. And I think, and that's what so, you know, and I mean, one of his great quotes was

sort of, you know, I'm paraphrasing it, but it was, he really felt that to understand the mystery of UFOs, we would, we would better understand ourselves and our place in the universe. And I, and regardless of what those answers would, might be. And I, I really genuinely, with all my heart believe that to be true as well. Like I'm, I like him, I'm open-minded to what, what is the nature of what we might be dealing with. I, I oscillate. Sometimes I'm, like, very convinced it's X or very convinced it's Y. But for sure, I, I, with all my being, do believe that it is an answer. It does represent an answer that we have yet to, to fully understand in terms of our, you know, that will help us really understand the nature of our own reality and the larger,

you know, universe in which we live. That is fascinating. I can't think of sort of a better way to wrap it up. But I just, I want to tell you this as a journalist, it's always, it's hard, it's always hard to like stay objective when you're covering like a TV show or, you know, anything, anything, a film, this, that, in the entertainment field to remain unbiased. But for me, I mean, the show is slick. It's, uh, it's gorgeous. It's well written. The acting is unbelievable. I mean, you guys, you hit everything. Oh, thank. Thank you. We were so blessed with, like, Listen, we got, you know, Bob Zemeckis, executive producing and his team are phenomenal. You know, of course, our cast, you know, The Wonderful Aidan Gillen and Michael Malarkey and Warmanel, Cassinias solo, or, you know, Neil McDonough, you know, Michael Harney.

Those guys are just, are just wonderful, wonderful actors. And then we just had a great team. Our directors, our DPs, are, like, everyone really came to this show with such enthusiasm. And I think respect for the subject matter and respect for what we were trying to do, because it's, It's a fine line that we're trying to walk here. It's period. We're dealing with something where we're trying to walk right on the edge and give people as truthful, as sort of intriguing a ride as we can.

And I think everyone just brought their A game. And that was just, I just feel so privileged to be a part of, especially because it's speaking to a subject matter that also speaks so personally to me that it all kind of came together the way it did with everyone involved. And the passion is clearly there from start to finish, David. And it's definitely, it's a journey of J. Allen Hinex that I think we're all ready and willing to take. So I can't wait for it to premiere January 8th on the History Channel. Congratulations on everything.

And we are willing to keep looking up, my man. Yeah, great. Yeah, keep watching the skies, guys. And I truly hope everybody tunes in and to check it out. you know, we're all really proud of it on our end. So, yes, please watch. Please watch. Thank you so much, David. Yeah, thank you, Ryan.

Real pleasure, man. I want to give the audience a little bit of a hint of what to expect with Project Blue Book. But before we even get to that, I have to ask you, Sean, your origin story, if we're going to go the comic book route. How did you... Or it's a radioactive spider. Love it. I've got to go with Peter Parker always.

As a boy from Queens, I respect that immensely. I'm from New York, too. So that's where I grew up. I grew up in the city. Oh, awesome, man. So we definitely have that in common. But clearly we have a little bit more in common UFOs being one of them. Yeah.

So did you have any interest in the UFO topic before being a part of this? Or did you even know what Project Blue Book was? So look, the good news is, you know, I had known about Project Blue Book for a very long time. I've been a bit of a, I don't know if, you can use the word buff, but I have been fascinated by UFOs and the phenomenon for a very long time. I believe I had a sighting as a kid at 10 years old when I was in New York City. It was something that always stuck with me. I've actually read a lot about the phenomenon because I find it to be endlessly fascinating. And, you know, one of the things that just about it that

was sort of shocking to me in a way is that it feels like when you have something, you have skeptics who want to keep telling you, where's the proof? Where's the proof? We don't see any real proof. It's like, it's actually out there. There is plenty of real proof, real credible witnesses, credible film, credible artifacts all related to it. And it's just a choice I think people make whether they want to be open to it, believing it or not. I actually went, and because I think like maybe a lot of people who listen to the podcast, you know, I got into ancient aliens and that got me, really interested in Machu Picchu and I actually took a trip down to Peru by myself over a Christmas holiday because I was like I just have to see this up close I have to see it up close I want to

see if it feels like there was that ancient alien you know um hypotheses they actually built it or not and it was a fascinating trip I think people did build it at the end of the day but there's still a lot of unexplained stuff but that is a long answer to a short question, which is, yes, it's something that I have been interested in for a very long time. So coming to the project, as soon as I had heard about it, I chased it, and I was like, I'm the guy, you know, I know about this. The story's great. The script is great. I have to be a part of it. Okay. So to make it clear to our audience, you are not only the showrunner of Project Blue Book, you're also an executive producer and a writer. So before we even get to the content,

How do you differentiate between all those responsibilities on one project? I can't even imagine that's easy. You know, I mean, I've been doing television for over 20 years now. So I have a lot of, I guess, practical experience with it. I've been fortunate enough to work alongside and under some of the best in the business, Tom Fontana, Ryan Murphy, Michael Mann. So you get to see sort of firsthand how they do it. And look, doing a television show is probably like doing any creative endeavor.

You're going to have an idea and then you're going to go step by step. How do we need to get this done? Now, the scope of a television show is such that there's a lot of moving pieces to it, a lot of parts to it, a lot of things you have to be aware of. It all starts with story. I had a writing teacher in college say once, you know, if you have a great script, you have a chance at making a great movie. If you have a bad script, you have no chance. So I spend all my time really on the story, you know, coming up with it, working with the writers in the writer's room, doing rewrites. And then after that, in terms of implementing, you know, the show running aspect of it,

keeping things on budget, hiring directors, casting, location, set design, all of that stuff. Once you have a clear idea what the story is, the very short answer is, you're going to just have answers to all the questions. And when you see something that doesn't feel right, you're going to say that doesn't feel like what we're trying to do here. And it's just that process at infinitum like, you know, all throughout the day, you know. It goes from everything to from a line somebody says to, I don't think they would wear that color to, you know, this needs to be exterior, not interior, to I like this director and I or I don't like that editor. It's like anything. Once you're given the keys, you'll, you'll know how to do it. Well, in terms of that process, you know, we know that there were so many, what, like 12,000 cases?

Yeah. That Project Blue Book covered. How did you guys even begin to like narrow in you and David, the creator, to which cases to cover, at least in the first season? Again, I can't imagine that was easy. So, yeah, let me give all props to David O'Leary as well, you know, who is the creator of the show. He wrote a spec script for it, which is to say it was an idea he had about Project Blue Book and on his own decided to write a script as a, you know, like a pilot for a television show. Dave is a great writer, great ideas, been around the television business for a while, but hadn't really done a television show, which is why I was brought in. As I like to say, you know, David built the boat.

I was given the pleasure of captaining it, which I think is probably a good way to kind of look at it. But in terms of how to sort of select cases, simple, David and I sat in a room for about three weeks. We went, before we even got in there, we went and dealt in to a lot of the cases Blue Book had handled. We both already came with so many that we knew. And then we just sat there and we started like horse trading, you know, is like, oh, my God, Volubic lights. What's great about that is it's like multiple witnesses, college campus, that could be a great setting. You had a professor that took a picture.

There were, you know, great newspaper articles. That's good because we have multiple witnesses and some credible ones. You know, the very first episode, which I know there's a lot of promos on, we do, which is a seminal case of the Gorman dog fight. And so that was like a lone person up in the sky, very visual. It just felt like a great sort of introduction into. telling the story. And throughout the season, what we tried to do is go, look, we want to start this. We want to introduce an audience to like a small phenomenon at first and then build, right? So by the end of the season, we've gone from a single somewhat credible, but sort of maybe he's

crazy witness to multiple credible witnesses involving the government. So you get to see the breadth of the phenomenon. And that's pretty much how we shaped it. Right. And, you know, again, not giving too much away. It's interesting to actually watch the process of an investigation through the eyes of J.L. and Heinek, which we'll get to, and not come out on the other side saying everything's aliens, you know? Right. We know as UFO researchers that he was extremely skeptical first going into this and remained that way for a while. So that was a really cool journey to sort of take, at least through what I've seen of the show so far. So I have to ask in terms of cast. Aiding Gillon as Jay Allen Heineck. I got chills, man. The first time he came on screen, we have been waiting to see Jay Allen Hynek,

us in the UFO field, on a screen for so long. And I honestly couldn't think of a better choice for this. The minute he started talking, I'm like, yep, that's him. That's exactly what I always envisioned. Same with Michael Malarkey, who sort of plays an amalgamation

of other characters that we all know of. So how was the casting for this? How did that sort of turn out and how did you give life to these lesser known historical figures? Casting was, look, it's a fun process because you start with pie in the sky type names and ideas, you know, like, who would be the best person you could possibly imagine to play this person? And what's great now is because I think TV has such, has eclipsed movies in a way of the talent that it brings to the screen that you really can shoot for that. And I'm being honest when I say, Aiden was the top of our list when we started

looking. He was coming off a Game of Thrones. There is something about him when you see him on screen that you can feel energy and movement going on behind his eyes. And so much of who Heinek is is a guy who's thinking and putting things together. And Aiden felt like somebody that was communicating, even when he wasn't speaking. And so to be able to have a character like that and then the weight that he could carry, you know, as the real life character. It just, you know, the stars aligned, if I can use that pun. And we got very lucky with him. In terms of what he brought to the character, we are fortunate enough to actually have

Jay Allen Hunnick's two sons, Paul and Joel, Joel, who is part of the series, as consultants on our show. They were able to speak with Aiden and all of us and give us, like, really detailed moments about their dad and about life and about life in the house and just little things, you know, even sent over some ties of their dads that helped Aiden sort of get into character. So, and then, of course, a lot of research, a lot of reading. And then Aiden's going to want to bring his own stuff, you know, so it's really a collaborative effort. And I can't imagine it's easy for to step into those shoes, either whether the character was based on a real person or not, you know, someone like his, his partner in the show.

played by Michael Malarkey, it's creating a character from absolute scratch. So, yeah, I can only imagine it was a very interesting journey for both of them and the other actors as well. I did have the pleasure of seeing a Q&A at AlienCon with Paul Heinek,

and that was really cool to hear him talk about, you know, his dad coming home to dinner and talking about the cases he was working on and which ones he found most compelling. And again, a moment, you know, a very rare moment to hear from someone in the family about what his father was working on. I'm sure we'll get snippets of that throughout the series as well.

Also, just to your point, too, Lee, other characters are, you know, although Heinek is, you know, first and, you know, front and center for us, and we have his rights in terms of, you know, the series, we weren't able to secure for some of the other characters, which is why even though there are people in, like Malarkey's character, Neil McDonough, Michael Harney's character, even though these people are in there, they're representing people who were there at the time. Right.

We just couldn't use actual names, but it's sort of the, maybe it's like the lawn order ripped from the headlines kind of approach, where you're like, it's this person. We sort of know it, but it's not something we can really, we can't go 100% with names and all of that. Oh, totally. And I mean, for the UFO, the people who are listening to this show, they're definitely going to know who these characters are based on. And for a more mainstream audience, I think the intention is there. We understand who these actual people were and what these characters are representing.

So again, wonderful, wonderful job on that. In terms of Project Blue Book, now we have two sides to Project Blue Book that we all know of in the UFO field. That's the side the public knew about and the side of what the Air Force's true intentions were with this. And you do play with that a lot in the series. So I was wondering, Sean, if you'd be able to briefly sort of run us through how you tackled both ends of the actual project Blue Book in the show. Well, there is the, you know, there's there's the public face and then there is the sort of, I guess for maybe lack of a better term, the conspiratorial angle of the whole thing. One of the catchphrases I find myself using a lot is, you know, it was sort of like the origin of fake news, right? It was the U.S. government, specifically the Air Force, putting together an organization designed to basically tell people what you saw you did not see.

And in that way, it was rewriting a narrative, right? So I think what our approach was is that we're not trying to paint the government, the Air Force, any of those decisions made as a bad thing. You look at the time period. You look at the paranoia. You look at what could happen if you created the sense of fear in the general public that these things existed. You had to make some tough decisions, you know what I mean, and probably keep it away from people. So we try to sympathize to some degree, I think, with the, like I said, the Air Force side and understand it. And because they feel they are doing the right thing, it makes the, I would say the conflict, it brings it more to the forefront.

It paints this picture that there's a much. deeper thing going on in the show in terms of, you know, Heinek is hired to work for the Air Force to explain away these cases. And you can't blame them for that. If a true believer in the UFO phenomenon looks at that, they're going to say, oh, it's, you know, I don't agree with that. But for the layman person who is just living their normal day-to-day life, they want to be told, okay, there's not aliens out there visiting our planet. I've got enough stuff to worry about here on earth. I think the line, too, I mean, look,

there's, there are plenty of credible sightings and we could go all day doing that. And I'm, I hardly fall in the skeptic category. If anything, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm a believer. But there's certainly a number of cases as well that, you know, when you scratch a little

deeper, you go, oh, clearly that was something else, you know, but the thing that I think the show does well is it finds a nice middle ground where it's like, you could sort of explain this away or you could really see it as something else as well. And they both exist in the same spot. And I think that's where we want to keep the audience at all times, where it's like, maybe that was the case. We're not really sure. You're always given a plausible

explanation and then one that can lead to a much greater conspiracy. In watching the first six episodes, you think you know what their conclusion is. And then the minute you think you know, it changes. And I'm sure that's how it actually happened to Heineck and the other academics and scientists working on this project at the time. There never was a true answer. How many cases were left unsolved? Something like 700, I believe. 700. And then about a third of even the 12,000, there was the name of the report they did. The late 50s. Yeah. Not the Warren report. That was Kennedy. It was either the Robertson panel or the Condon Committee. Yeah, I always get them confused. And they basically went through and just sort of checkmark like a third of those cases to go, yeah, okay, birds, weather balloon, mark your, you know, Venus, like without even really delving into it. So 700 official, I think there's probably another, you know, 3,000 that are, you know, could easily be examined and be found to be just not even.

credible at all, terms of a response. Yeah. Well, I mean, in terms of the cases you looked at, are there any that you really stuck out to you that made you really think, we got something here, and that you wanted to cover in the show?

Any like one pivotal case that you're willing to share with us? So, I mean, there's two of them. And, well, there's more, but I mean, in terms of the first season, there's two of them. One that, I mean, you've seen the first six. They're literally the last two episodes. Okay.

That's all you had to say for me. But I will say one involved abduction. And to me, that is fascinating because, you know, when you delve deeper into some of the abduction stories, the amount of reality you have to suspend or have to believe about a person who might be risking everything to tell their story and consistently stay on message and give you the same facts and talk about the idea of being abducted. To me, that's fascinating. Because it's hard to imagine somebody saying,

I'm making this all up or I'm trying to get publicity or something, and then carry it into your dying day. So that's one of them. And then there's another one that I'll just say is our season finale that I think is most fascinating because, like the Phoenix Lights, so many witnesses, so many witnesses, so many people. saw the same thing at the same time. And then it was like it just went off the front page. And you'll see it in episode 10. And it's a part of American history. You know, the president was involved. It's just, you know, I'm probably giving a lot of way for people who are familiar with what I'm talking about. But that to me was the most fascinating, you know. Absolutely. Well, I mean, I'd like to touch on that idea of, you know, these stories coming out that are pretty big bombshells in terms of the UFO topic.

and then fading away, Sean. I mean, we recently had the New York Times article, what, about a year ago that came out saying the Pentagon had secretly been investigating UFOs. I mean, for us, for people like me, I was like, holy shit, like I had no idea. And I've been looking at this stuff my whole life. And, you know, it was big news for a couple weeks,

and then it just sort of faded into obscurity. What do you make that whole thing? It seems like a really interesting time for your show to be coming around when we now know there was a secret project going on, even though they said the last one the government did was Project Blue Book. Yeah, look, not surprised at all. The position of the Pentagon has always been it's a national security issue. And to that end, yeah, you have to, you know, be, you have to know what sort of threats are out there. And if there are things in our skies that you can't account for,

that could be a national security issue. When, you know, back in the 50s, when all those, you know, there's a lot of those reports, excuse me, from the nuclear arsenals, once we got the bomb, that they would see lights above these places all the time. And as a matter of fact, that the sightings really spiked once we got the bomb, as if we'd sort of, you know, send a message out there that, like, we're capable of blowing ourselves up. So it makes sense to me that the Pentagon would hide it, again, because then they're asked about it every day. What doesn't make sense to me is that when it does come out and people see it and like that recent thing, I don't know how long ago it was now, I guess it was a year ago

when that was that F-18 outside of San Diego, they released the footage and, you know, that people see that and you hear the pilots and I will say we were speaking on a panel in Comic-Con, was it, Comic-Con, Alien Con? San Diego, was it? It might have been San Diego and the pilot in that plane got up and spoke Oh, wow. And his wife kept saying, honey, sit down, sit down. You don't have to keep talking. Wow, I had no idea. It was unbelievable. We were all little jaws on the floor kind of thing.

But yeah, it's like, yeah, we saw this. Don't know what it was. Move this way. You saw the film. We're not making this up. The government is saying, we don't know what it is either. And then people go, oh, gee, I wonder what's on the SBN right now. As the Krispy Chicken sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4. Quiet. No. Krispy, saucy, and $4? Very. Only at 711. Valley through 62326, participating stores only well supplies lastly app for full terms. Yeah.

You know, it shows away. It's fascinating to me. Well, I mean, I see that changing slightly. I mean, I know for a fact, you know, since that story broke that, you know, things like Project Blue Book, there's a ton of other UFO-related things that are going to be hitting the television screen soon. I think it's made a resurgence for sure. I think this is the time of UFOs again. So, I mean, I think you guys are right at the fourth. front of that. So that's got to be exciting as well.

Very, very. And it's fun because you do get, you get tapped into more stuff now, more things find you now. And you're like, oh my God, I can't. It's just incredible to me, you know? Yeah. And the history of it, you know, the high jump back around World War II and Antarctica and Admiral Bird and all stuff with the Nazis. And it's just, the history of it is fascinating. Right. And I think, you know, the show being on the history channel, people expect that, some sort of accuracy and authenticity to actual historical events. So again, while this may be a fictional show, many people look at it that way. It's based on true events. I mean, this was an actual investigation. And you guys do go there. I was highly impressed with the research that went into this.

And, you know, I had no expectations sort of going in until I was given that key to watch the first six. And I will tell you right now, man, like, I am completely sold. And I can't wait to see what comes next for it. But I have to ask you personally, you know, as a showrunner, you've worked on so many really, really big shows in Hollywood and whatnot. How does this one compare to all your other projects? What resonates most about Project Blue Book? Well, look, it's funny. I tell people now, and it's, I get to speak from a really truthful place.

about the passion that I have for this. And I will say first and foremost that I am a jaded Hollywood writer. I've been doing this a long time and been involved in a lot of projects. I've had wonderful success. I've seen things that I thought were, you know, had great potential, just sort of fizzle and die in a development stage or once the network and studio got a hold of it. This one feels special to me.

And it feels two reasons. One, it feels relevant, right? It feels like this stuff is happening now. And it speaks to not just the historical period, but it feels like it's about what's happening now. You have the fake news. You have the Russians. You have the sightings in the sky. You have the paranoia we all feel about what is out there.

And it's about something, you know. And it's not just, we're not just writing a show that's about we're investigating UFOs. It asks bigger questions, and it has great character moments and character arcs for our characters. I like to say early on that, you know, look, this is a show at its core about trying to identify the unidentifiable or attach an identity to something. And that is life's work, not just when it comes to the UFO phenomenon, but when I look at character as well, that's what we're all trying to do. We're all trying to sort of dig deep and find out the recesses of who we are. you know, we're constantly changing. And to be able to apply that to the characters and the writing, it has been a wonderful marriage of both history and story and personal connection to it.

So, yes, I say as a jaded Hollywood writer, this one is very special to me. Well, as another jaded Hollywood resident, I completely understand, Sean. And I couldn't agree more. There's something truly special about this show, from the writing to the acting to, to, the overall message and beyond, like I said, man. As a, I try to remain objective and on the sidelines for many of these sorts of entertainment things, but I am a super fan from episode one to 10, and I hope we get more, man. But it premieres January 8th on the History Channel.

And what can we expect next from you? Well, you know, as a jaded Hollywood writer, I'm always working on a lot of stuff. We are eagerly anticipating a season two pickup. generally doesn't happen until after the show airs. But given the amount of positive feedback and so far positive critical acclaim and just the marketing of it, I have high hopes. And so my energies, I'm hoping you're going to shift 100% to back to Blue Book starting in the new year. I certainly hope so, Sean.

So thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. My pleasure. Love what you're doing too. So thank you. That's it for this week's episode. Be sure to check out Project Blue Book, premiering on the History Channel on January 8th. Check your local listings for exact times.

Also, look forward to exclusive interviews with some of the actors in the near future. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review somewhere in the skies on the largest podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, and iTunes. You directly help the show gain visibility and gain new listeners. Check out our merch store at Tpublic.com.

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Just search for the Ryan Sprague channel. Thank you as always to HelloFresh, the E1 Podcast Network, K-G-R-A-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R radio, and most importantly, to you, the listeners. I'll see you here next week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching. Somewhere in the Skies. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with the Entertainment

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