Somewhere in the Skies - Richard Dolan: USOs, PURSUE Files & Where UFO Disclosure Goes Next

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Richard Dolan returns for a deep dive into the hidden history of USOs and some of the most extraordinary cases from his latest research. Dolan takes us aboard U.S. Navy aircraft carriers and submarines, into Soviet-era underwater mysteries, and beneath the waters of Lake Baikal as we explore decades of strange encounters at sea.  We examine the 1971 USS John F. Kennedy incident, the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt encounter, the mysterious Soviet “Croakers,” the alleged Lake Baikal swimmers, the Lummi Island incident, and a bizarre encounter involving the USS Saratoga in the Bermuda Triangle. Then we turn to the UFO conversation today. Dolan weighs in on PURSUE Tranche 6, the newly released UAP videos and historical documents, Edward Ruppelt’s recovered 1952 audio, the AAWSAP/DIA studies, whistleblower waivers, Christopher Mellon’s criticism of the Wall Street Journal, and the continuing push for UFO disclosure. We also explore whether artificial intelligence could play a role in understanding, or even communicating with, non-human intelligence, before asking a bigger question: Has ufology become too focused on Washington and disclosure while losing sight of the actual UFO encounters happening around the world?  Find all of Richard Dolan's work: ⁠https://richarddolanmembers.com/⁠ Patreon: ⁠http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies⁠ ByMeACoffee: ⁠http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ⁠ Send us a voicemail: ⁠https://www.speakpipe.com/SomewhereSkiesPod⁠ Substack: ⁠https://ryansprague.substack.com/⁠ All socials and books: ⁠https://linktr.ee/somewhereskiespod⁠ Email: ⁠[e-mail]⁠ Opening theme song by Septembryo Closing song by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2026 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #UFO #UAP #USO #UFODisclosure #RichardDolan #Aliens #NHI #UFOs Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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While our government's official position is not to speculate on this subject, we can choose to let our minds explore other possibilities. to use our imaginations. For if we consider that astro-scientists agree on one point, that the possibility of life elsewhere is not only quite probable, some field is there without a doubt. Let us suppose them that these objects are real space vehicles, extraterrestrial origin, and not an illusion of the mind.

I'm Ryan Spratt, and you are now somewhere in the skies. All right, welcome back to Somewhere in the Skies, and a huge welcome back to fan favorite return guest, the one and only Richard Dolan. Welcome back, Rich. Hi, Ryan. I'm really happy to be here with you. It's always a pleasure.

It's always fun. It absolutely is, man. I mean, you were the premiere episode of somewhere in the sky. So I cannot stress enough how amazing that was. Ten years later, my friend. We're almost going on ten years. Can you believe that? Well, one of us looks older, and it's not you.

You still are good. I'm really glad. It's been a good journey, and I'm definitely happy to be back here. Absolutely. And we've had some incredible conversations in the past, and I know this will be the same. And, you know, there's many reasons I wanted to have you back on the show. You did somewhat recently come out with Volume 2 of your books on USOs, which I want to dig into with you with some specific cases from the new volume. because U.S.Os are the talk of the town, man.

They have been for years now when it comes to the UFO topic. But I also want to get your thoughts on a lot of the stuff going on in the current UFO discourse. We just had Trench 6 release from the Pursue Initiative. So we'll talk about that. Then I got some really good listener questions for you. So, yeah, I think we got a lot to cover tonight. So I won't really waste any of your time. Let's start with a history of USOs, Volume 2.

Yeah, yeah, we had you on for Volume 1, but we're moving up a couple decades with these cases, right? I feel like I just got into the USO topic very fortuitously. You know, I think I started almost on a whim looking at some water-based cases. I had to remember the years, at 21 or 22. It was one of those years, and I researched one or two pretty interesting cases. And I asked myself, where are these cases being collected? Like, does anyone have a compendium of all of the really good water-based UFO or UAP reports or U.S.O unidentified submerged objects? Are they anywhere?

And there really wasn't one good place. There was a couple of researchers that did some very good work. But no, there really wasn't. And so I just made it this initiative, and that's been the last several years. So I ended up finding close to 700 really good cases that I thought these are definitely worthy of being remembered. Because honestly, Ryan, 99% of them even experienced researchers, I think, were not familiar with these cases. So I thought they need to have a life. They need to be remembered.

I mean, for the people who experience these sightings, this is, something you can appreciate because you are really very sensitive to the human side of this phenomenon. These are people who have this once in a lifetime experience, probably the most memorable thing that they've ever had in their life, and it just gets forgotten, pushed to the side. And I just saw that there's something not right about that. So I wanted to kind of give really good write-ups to all of them, kind of breathe new life into them, as it were,

get them illustrated, which a lot of them are illustrated now. illustrated now and so the first volume took the story from the earliest cases to the end of the 1960s that's just how the data worked uh the second volume is only two decades it's only the 1970s and the 1980s and people think that's it well you will see why that's it because the 1970s especially was just out of control with these sightings uh and just for the record i'm very deep into final stages of of wrapping up volume 3. Probably that will be out in the spring, I'm guessing, after the new year,

but that will take the story right up to the present day, and there's a lot of cases there, people want to know. But this second volume, it's like the middle child, and everyone likes to forget the middle child, but you shouldn't, in this case, because something unusual seems to have happened starting in the late 60s going up and really to the early 1980s.

So covering most of the period that is in this volume. And what that something was, I still am really not sure, but what I can tell you is that the number of cases, first of all, from the 1970s, it is by far the most active decade of U.S. so encounters that I've been able to find. And that's really weird because we're in an age of everything's digital. People are reporting their cases online to move on or the National UFO Reporting Center. you would think we would have more cases today, and we do have a lot of cases today, but not as many as in the 1970s, as far as I can see. It was just out of control in terms of quantity, and then also in terms of a number of other things, too. Like the drama, the amount of electromagnetic interference that took place with civilian and military witnesses during that decade was higher by far than any of the thing.

decade like a lot of things were going on in the 70s and it really has prompted me to ask like why what what made this decade so unusual was it just i had a small data sample meet 700 cases maybe that's a lot maybe that's a little um when i was collecting these cases i was simply trying to find any case that i personally thought this has got enough meat on the bones we're going to use this and it just so happened that the 1970s vastly exceeded uh And I get the idea that this is also true with aerial UFO or UAP sightings, the 1970s. It's kind of a forgotten decade. I think there was a lot of activity going on during that entire decade,

and it shows as well in the water-based aspects of this. So that was one of the things that I just has struck me, and ever since, and I just asked myself, why, why? And part of me really comes down to the possibility that it doesn't have anything to do with us. It's them. There's a policy. Something was decided, perhaps, maybe in the late 60s, that something different was going to happen. And then it seemed to peter out by the early mid-1980s.

So back to ordinary, still incredible cases after that, but slightly less intense number of cases. And so I don't know. just one of those things. And maybe we won't get a chance to interview the intelligences behind this. But if I ever were to get a chance to do it, that is a question that I just might ask. What was going on with you, people, in the early 70s? Right. Right.

What was the fever pitch? Like, why? Well, yeah, and that's the ultimate question. But the data doesn't lie. And like you said, it may not be, you know, in terms of like so many decades, but it's so compounded with, quantity and I guess quality as well when it comes to this. Well, you know, I was able to dig through the book and find some cases that really stood out to me personally that I really wanted to discuss with you. And I hope that's okay. I went, okay, cool, cool. Let's start with the 1971

John F. Kennedy incident. Now, you know, we've got a lot of cases nowadays that have to do with these Navy carriers and stuff like that. But I was astounded to learn that this goes back all the way to the 70s as well. Oh, yeah. Well, and in fact, there's some great U.S. Navy cases going back into the 40s and 50s, as well as Russian-S.-soviet cases. Maybe we can talk about those two. But the one you're referring to, the U.S. is John F. Kennedy who's an aircraft carrier, one of America's, you know, power projection vessels during the Cold War. Very, very important. Excuse me. And this is an interesting one because we have the exact date and time,

and we have the name of the primary witness who wrote about it. So that's like you don't always get that with a lot of these Navy cases, because frequently someone will retire from the Navy and 20 years will go by or more, and they may anonymously talk about something on a message board somewhere, and they may give you the month or the year, but they won't often give you that, or they won't give you necessarily the body of water. So here we've got really all the details. So the main witness was a man named James K, with a K,

and he's been known for close to 30 years since he first talked about this. He mentioned it to Stephen Greer for the Disclosure Project back in the late 90s. He wrote about this to a couple of news sites, including Filer's Files. People know George Filer, perhaps. So this story is out there. So James Kopp was a communication specialist on the JFK, And it's July 2nd, 1971. So as communication specialists, his job was to manage the incoming and outgoing messages from the ship.

And back in the early 70s, he described it pretty interesting. So he had four incoming machines and four incoming and for outgoing. So anyway, it's about 8.30 p.m. July 2nd, so it's pretty much dark. And his teletype start printing gibberish. And he's like, what is going on with this? And then he hears something on the ship's intercom, another member of the crew screaming, like freaking out, screaming, it's God. It's the end of the world. This is what he hears.

Yeah, so that gets his attention. He goes out on the outside on the ship to look, and he sees this object. It's a sphere. It's like this glowing, yellow and orange pulsating sphere. It's the apparent size of a beach ball, if you held it at arms. length. It's kind of big. And he said it gave off about half the amount of light that you would get from the daytime sun. So quite bright. Quite bright. So he's watching this for about 25 seconds or so and the ship goes to battle stations, general quarters, the sound. So the sirens go and everything. So he has to go back down to his station. And communications to the ship returned after another 20 minutes. And that's around the time that the ship went off battle stations. as well. He did not see this object depart. He was not able to do that. What he learned later, though, from other colleagues on the ship is that the radar screens on the ship had glowed, the compasses had all malfunctioned, and there were two ready alert F4 phantom jets that could not start. So the impression that you get is that someone wanted to start these jets for an intercept, and they were not able to start. So there was a lookout on the ship who required sedation. because he was just so upset.

And Kopp himself was never interviewed specifically to keep quiet about this. He said, but at the end, just as we were about to go into harbor, he said a couple of weeks later, the captain went on the ship-wide speaker and just reminded the crew that classified events are not to be discussed. You people know what I'm, you know the drill guys. So that was essentially that. I actually was able to be in touch with another member of the JFK crew, not from 1971, but later. The thing about a lot of these Navy guys is like they all talk to each other. Like they all got on message boards and they all talk about old stories and the JFK.

And this gentleman, he's a great guy. He located another veteran's corroborating account. I wasn't able to get a lot of detail, but there was one other. that he spoke to from the ship at that time who was able to give some kind of corroboration. So the main point is that you've got, you've got, so I don't know if this object actually came from out of the water. So technically I can't say this was a submerged object, but the ship was north of Puerto Rico at the time. They were out, way, way, way, way, there's a lot of these spherical objects that people notice, was directly above the ship apparently just checking it out probably saying let's let's see what the jfk's got

going on now new weapon systems new comms what do they have and they probably did anything and then just left and that was the end of that so fascinating case yeah you know it reminds me of um i i just did a lot of research into for an upcoming episode of the caloresis incident in brazil where the spheres came out of the water and then started coming towards the land terrifying, terrifying. So yeah, you've got to wonder, like, the spheres seem to be a big thing. A lot of the cases in your books on the U.S.S. are spheres, right? Absolutely. I did a statistical analysis of a lot of these aspects of these cases. So every case that I did, all 700, I extracted about 15 or so data points from each one,

including shape of the craft. That was one of the things. And they break down there. Essentially, they're really not different than what you get with Ariel UAP. So you get your disc shapes, you get cigar shapes, some triangular, triangular shapes as well, but quite a few spherical, or people now would say orbs. The thing about the spherical ones, it's hard to know. Sometimes they're glowing so much, like in the case of this one in the JFK from 1971. Like, I don't really know. Like, is there an actual solid craft inside there, like a metal sphere? Or is this just a plasm ball that acts intelligently?

Now, you can't always tell. But there are cases that I've noted that there are spherical objects that are not glowing, and they are just absolutely perfectly spherical, and they can look gun metal, gray metallic. So some of them are definitely solid objects, and maybe all of them are. They just may have a kind of a plasma effect as part of their operation. Yeah, that is fascinating. Oh, I mean, they kind of, I guess, keep on that. track we moved to 1975 and you got the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt. Is this similar at all? Yeah, okay. What's this one about? It's similar. Yeah, it is. Actually, the FDR, another aircraft carrier. Yeah, you've asked me about two of my, two of my favorite cases from, from Sparney. The FDR, this one was fun for me because I really did a lot of research on this one.

Okay. I did all the digging. So this took place on May 1st, 1970. off the coast of Italy in the Mediterranean Sea. So the FDR was a very, this is toward the end of its service career. I think it was decommissioned just two years later. FDR had a lot of U.S.O and UFO encounters in 1950s that we absolutely know about, and those are very well documented. But this was 1975. And I learned about it in the Mufon,

Journal, to move on UFO Journal from around 1980, the researcher Richard Hall, who was quite prominent back then, he discussed this case and he said, I saw a reference to this in some magazine. And I had to find this magazine. I can't, what's the name of it? Ideals UFO. Back in the 70s, you would get all of these like startup and then fail magazine ventures. You know, there's just, there was no internet, so just all of these mags would be published and then the next thing you know, they're gone. This was one of those. So I'd never heard of it, but I was able, I spent like almost 50 bucks to get a 1978 copy of this. That was impossible to find, but I got it. So I read this, and it was written under a pseudonym, a man under the

name of F. B. Newman. But the article was very well written. It was very articulate. Like, You could just tell this man, whoever wrote this, he's been around the block a few times. He could tell he lived in D.C., Washington. He talked about all of his contacts in Washington, D.C., and how he learned of this particular case. And I researched. Like, who was F. B. Newman? And there was no F. B. Newman. And then I found the connection that F. B. Newman was the pen name, the childhood pseudonym of a very, very successful,

prominent aviation writer named Robert F. Door, T-O-R-R, who had a really, very cool career. Robert Doer seemed like a pretty neat guy himself. He had a military background, he was like a total aviation nerd,

and he was a diplomat. That was his other thing. So he had very strong connections. So here, this was a guy who had learned of a UFO case, clearly, from a contact in the Mediterranean. And it was obvious that he had an interest in this subject, but in 1978, you're not going to write about this publicly without damaging your career.

So we obviously didn't want to do that. He obviously used his childhood pseudonym to write this very interesting article. So that's the backstory. So what actually happened? We don't have as much detail of this. He used the name of a lieutenant on the ship, who I think was also a pseudonym. He gave Arthur Pisano. I looked, I couldn't find any Arthur Pisano anywhere.

But it's off the coast of Italy, and what apparently did happen, is that this giant craft, enormous craft, emerged from the sea, circled around the ship once or twice, I think maybe twice, and then it submerged again. That was it. It comes out, this huge thing, around the ship, and back down in there. The person identified as Arthur Pizzano looked at this through binoculars, according to the article, and he just described a gray, kind of like a disc object with these round port holes around the rim.

And according to the article, at least 90 crew members witnessed this. So one thing I was able to do is I was able to look at the service history of the FDR aircraft carrier. and it was exactly listed as where Robert Doors' article had it. So, like, all of that was accurate. And you have to think, how is someone going to get

that type of information in the late 70s as to the location of a U.S. aircraft carrier unless you had some good connections? So I think it's a true story. And I think that this band, this prominent aviation writer, he wrote like 70 books. I mean, he was just absolutely prolific.

I think he just wanted to write about this. And he wanted to do it under a suit on him. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, well, good digging on that one. That's pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like you're like Sherlock Holmes over here. I love it. Well, sometimes on a good day. On a good day. Sometimes someone else does the Sherlock Holmes work. But yeah. Yeah. This one was fun and I'm glad I kind of sleuth through that one.

Absolutely. I mean, that's just like, I'm thinking of. about this massive object just coming out, scoping things out, and then going, like, that is very troubling. And over 90 witnesses, that's crazy. Yes, correct. I would love to know, like, did this ship experience malfunctions as well? That piece of information didn't really come out,

although I think it's entirely possible. But a lot of times you don't get all the info. You just get what you get. Right. with these American aircraft carriers, sure, is that, because there's many more of these types of cases, not just those two, it's obvious to me that there is a high-level, very precise intelligence that is monitoring, or that has been monitoring the United States Navy out at sea, and the Russian Navy, and the Russians as well, because they're quite prominent where this is just as much as Americans, I found.

Absolutely. Well, let's move there. I mean, you didn't mention earlier, you know, the Soviet stuff that's been going on and whatnot. We have, I love the name of this one when I read it in your book. The Soviet croakers. This is in the 1970s. Now we're talking like submarine sort of stuff now. What were the Soviet croakers? Yeah, the name, and I don't, I should learn how to pronounce this, Kvakeri, K-V-A-K-A-K-E-E-R-I. I think I have it here, K-V-A-K-R-I. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's their name for it. Okay. And it means croakers, like a frog would croak. So it was a sound.

So what you had, I think this started even in the late 60s, but through the 1970s. So you'd have Soviet submariners. First of all, a thing to be said about this, so the Soviet Union, for people who did not maybe live through the Cold War or don't know much about the Soviet Union, it was a very tightly controlled state, clearly, very ideological, a lot of great strong ideological control and information control. And so the topic of UFOs in the Soviet Union for most of that time was not a good career move. Like you didn't want to do that. It's not like you'd be thrown into prison, but it could harm your career. career quite severely. And so there were very few books and publications had dealt with the subject. So what you ended up happening during, having during the Soviet era, were people just swapping stories and informally or unofficially collecting them.

And so unfortunately, when the Soviet Union fell in the early 90s, many of these stories came out, but we don't have exact dates for many of them. We do for some, but we don't for others. And so there's, there's some missing details, which is unfortunate. But anyway, with the Kvacario, the croakers, so this was reported quite a bit. So you had Soviet submariners, and they're in the North Atlantic, or they're in some part of the world. And wherever they were, they're describing these strange underwater signals

that sounded like frog croaking, but with sometimes changing frequencies and rhythms, it wasn't just one type of thing. And I think they were most prominent in the North Atlantic and in the Norwegian Sea, that area. But there were encounters also in the Arctic Ocean and in the Northern Pacific, like by the Bering Sea. So the disturbing thing was their behavior.

So they seemed extremely mobile, like they would accompany the submarines. The acoustic sonar would pick these things up, and they would seem to react to the submarines movements, sometimes circling around a submarine, not easy to do. The crews would basically describe being followed through all of these particular areas, and then the sounds would eventually disappear, like with a final croak. This was most prominent with the nuclear-powered submarines.

So now, from what we could determine, what I could determine, There was a secret Soviet naval investigation involving prominent scientists and intelligence personnel. It was the name of an Admiral Ranit Smyrnov. Anyway, they initially wondered if this was an American surveillance or tracking technology. They concluded it wasn't, and I don't think there was any evidence of that as a case. They thought, is this some new marine organism that we don't know about? No one really seemed to conclude anything like that. And they just wrapped up the investigation sometime in the early 80s.

But I don't think they ever had an explanation for it. So what you had is this prolonged pattern of these acoustic encounters that just went ongoing. But not, I don't know that they actually had a visual confirmation at the same time that they had these acoustic signatures. There were Soviet submarines that did have encounters with craft like they saw visually, but I don't know if it was in connection with the croakers. So very interesting.

It seems to have been taken very seriously. I was lucky to get access to a Russian language book on U.S.O's written a little over 10 years ago by the late Vladimir Ajaja, who was like the Stanton-Fried book. of Soviet uphology at the time, and another author by the name of Litvinov, and they were both submarine Navy officers, and they did a book on Soviet or Russian U.S.Os. So they had a lot of info in there, and they had a few things to say among Croakers as well. Interesting. You know, as you're describing that case, I've been looking a lot into the Shack Harbor incident. I'm actually doing a documentary all about it, and there's been some, I guess you

could say developments with like the primary researcher over there you got chris styles and he's been talking about how like whatever crashed into the shag harbor was down there lodged in the water for a long time and they actually sent vessels down and the thing was moving around down there and then it went up near i think this is yep yep part of a while yeah i think they did they did really great work and i i people should know like that object that was in 1967 And something came down in the waters off Nova Scotia there. And it got a lot of attention from the Canadian divers, United States Navy, and the Soviet Navy is hanging out in the distance,

watching it all being kept at a distance. And yes, it does seem that for several days there was something down there. I think you might know this very well. The theory is that it was maybe repairs were actually being done to a craft that was in the water off the harbor there for a few days. Because another craft supposedly, according to some witnesses, I guess, was seen there as well under the water for a short while. Yeah, crazy stuff.

That's the, yeah, that just, when you were describing the Soviet case, it like conjured a lot of these moments I've had over there interviewing witnesses and looking into that case. Shag Harbor is a really important case for sure. It's probably the best known U.S.O. case. For sure. I think we know of you. Well, I mean, we might as well stay Soviet, move up a couple years. We got in 1982, this one too.

Now, this case... Oh, I know what this one will be. Oh, yeah, infamous. I mean, we've heard about this in the news. I know, you know, when a lot of those leaked files came from, like, George Knapp and stuff, this case was always one that people went to. And it's almost become, like, folkloric in a way, rich. But I really liked how you kind of made it digestive for everyone.

So tell us a little about the Lake Baikal. Bicalf. Lake Pfeckle. Thank you. Thank you. Lake and the swimmers. Oh, man. So, yes, this is from 1982 that summer. The story is so, like a lot of these Russian stories are, they seem kind of out there.

Like, and I wonder, do I include this? But I had to include it. It's just too notorious. And I think, I'm sure I wrote in there, like, look, you decide what you think about this. I'm just going to tell you what the story is. Yeah. But yeah, so this was actually, I mentioned Vladimir Ajaja.

He, I think he was the first one to actually bring this case out. But then Paul Stonehill, who's a Ukrainian-American author on this, he wrote about it. I know Paul. So here's the story. So in Lake Baikal, first of all, it's known as the Pearl of Siberia. It is the oldest freshwater lake in the world. It is the deepest freshwater freshwater. lake in the world and it has more water I think than all of the great lakes combined I believe

that is true it's about this like the physical area of Lake Michigan but it's so deep it just has an enormous amount of water so any of that's Lake Baikal and so the Soviet Navy and I'm sure the Russian Navy to this day they do exercises there they do training so you had Soviet military divers doing training exercises there. These are like hardcore, high professional divers like you get, you know, at the top, top of their game. They're going like 150 feet down on this particular dive. It's pretty deep. And according to the story, this is in the summer of 82, they encounter beings down in the lake, according to the story.

These beings, they're like nine or ten feet tall, first of all, so they're very, very, big, very big. And they're wearing like extremely close-fitting, like silvery clothing, like very, very close-fitting. And they didn't really have any equipment, like scuba equipment that you would think. There was like a kind of a helmet, like a round helmet. But that was it. That's all what these guys could see. So the divers come back up, they report this, and some dumb, dumb commander apparently orders them to capture one, go back down and get one. It's like, dude, they're bigger than Shaquille O'Neal. I don't really know about what it is. But they go down, I think, how many divers? It's something like five or six or seven. There's like quite a few of these

divers, I think. They go down under the water. And they're going to try to capture. one of these creatures, but of course they don't. But what does happen is that this, they're down there pretty deep and this powerful, like a force, a kinetic force, essentially pushes them very rapidly to the surface, like too fast, because they're getting decompression sickness. The bends, we say, if you don't, like if you come up too fast from that depth, you can die, because they're getting decompression sickness. because your body can't handle it. And three of these seven divers, according to the story, did die. Because the Soviets did not have enough functional decompression units that were functional.

And actually, this sounds very much like 1980s, the Soviet Union, where things were just kind of falling apart. And I can believe that. But anyway, so that's the story. there was a later warning to another general, and I can't remember his name, but he was, they had another lake in the Soviet Union, Lake Isakkuil, which was over to the southwest from Lake Baikal. I forget region, as in maybe not Kazakhstan. I'm not sure where. But that's another area where the Soviets would do their

naval exercises, and there was a warning to this general against trying to do anything similar. Like, if you see something down there, leave it alone, essentially. Do not engage. Yeah, it's an extraordinary

account, but the thing about it, we have the names of the people associated with it. Like, not just Vladimir Zaja, but I think there was a commander by the name of Sokolov, who had contributed a number of UFO accounts. And in fact, he was a witness of a U.S.O that I have in this book as well.

So I think he's a, I suspect he's a good witness and a good, you know, source for these. So you've got some named events. You've got, you don't have the exact date, but we've got a month and we've got the year. We have the location. It's a very explicit story. And I, as odd as it is, I, well, I mean, I think I tend to believe it. But I felt it was definitely worthy of treated in this book yeah for sure it's part of the data I mean we yeah for sure you got to include it um I love that uh 1984 my birth year we're moving to looney Island um this is interesting we got divers again who encountered something and then something on the seabed as well right you bet 1984 I was a young man of 22

years old with nice black hair and I had Life was going good in 1984. I remember it well. So I'm glad that you were able to join the party that year. So, yes, I think it's Lummi Island, if I remember correctly. But, yeah, so this was in late July of 1984. And this is an amazing case, because I had not really known about this until I started researching it. But I learned this has been subject.

There was one researcher who really, after the fact, went deep into this and pulled out a tremendous amount of information. And his name is in the book, and I think he's – I don't know if he's alive. I can't recall. Anyway, this is what happened. So a little after, I think, 3.30 in the morning. This is like, you know, dead of night. There was a fishing vessel. There's a Lone Island.

It's in the northwest – it's Washington – the state of Washington. Washington. And it's, you know, in the, that whole body of water that, what the heck's the name of that now? I'm throwing a complete blank. Oh, it begins with a P. Anyway. Yeah. Oh, that's going to bother me. Well, here, we're going to look it up. I've got, I got the book right here. So, Puget. Is it the Puget? Is it the Puget sound? Yeah. There we go. Sorry, people in Washington. Sorry, guys. We love it. You know, the brain just stops functioning.

Too many. Too many lakes. Too many seas, too many lakes. By Puget Sound, yeah. So you have a fishing vessel. It's a little after 3.30. It's called the Steva 10. I remember this.

So they radio the Coast Guard. They see like there's this flaming object coming down into the water. And it produced this huge wall of water, like 100 feet high. But the thing that they noticed is that it was kind of. down they noticed it maneuvering they said it came down and then it reversed course and then it went back down so that that's something to keep in mind makes you think maybe not a meteorite if that's an accurate observation but they they seemed quite adamant about that so anyway we got some eyewitnesses about that it basically made like a u-turn and then went and then went

into the water so the coast guard did investigate this this is all my matter of record. U.S. Coast Guard investigates this over a period of a day or two, a couple of days, and then the official explanation as a result of that said, well, I think it's probably a media right. Yes, we know what the witnesses say they saw, but they probably misinterpreted it. I think it's a media right. Just forget about it. End of story. Well, not end of story. So months go by, and now we're in late December, and you have this independent expedition. So a group of locals get together, they raise some money, they, rent a boat

to go out there for an expedition. This is at the very end of December. It's after Christmas, just before New Year. And they locate, and they've got sonar, or no, they've got some kind of radio equipment. I wish I could remember this better. So they're, but they've got electronic means of detecting what's going on down there. And they detect a 30-foot, 10-foot-high object down in the water.

That's not supposed to be there. So they send, the first diver goes down. His name is Walker. John, I think, John Walker. He describes, he goes down there, and he says, oh my God, this is a metallic, gold-colored. It's like a flying saucer. It's shaped like a flying saucer, perfect,

like a dish-like object. So he sees it, and one or both of them fail in trying to record this. They had the camera, underwater camera, but the camera failed. The next one was Richard Burke. He goes down, they don't go down at the same time. Basically describes the same type of thing. He stands on it and he feels a hum through his boots, he says. And one or both of them were unable to get this to record. That was it. He was able to. He was able to to, they were able to see the object on the ship with a feed through the video camera, however that worked, but they were not able to record it properly. It did not record, and so they

had no recording of it. So he comes back up and they're like, okay, it's too late, we can't really recover this thing now. We're going to go back tomorrow. When they return the next day, guess what? The object could not be found. Of course. All the later searches, all of those failed. There were witnesses, the wife of the guy who owned the boat. She stated she saw, I think, strange helicopter activity around them at the time.

They apparently were being observed. And there was talk of U.S. Navy overnight. That was in the area. So, and then there were stories of the late Dr. Bruce McAbee looked into this as a couple of other researchers back then, that they believed that they tied in a strange arrival of a craft from the Northwest to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base shortly after New Year's in 1985. So if you put it, that's really all that we have here. You know, it's not as strong as like the Roswell case would be in terms of the number of witnesses. But I think it's really quite interesting. There was an article written about this at the time, a local article out of a local university there, which I was able to read.

And I think the researcher was named Matthew Thune. He did a very detailed reconstruction, and he did a lecture on this at one of the UFO conferences in the early 2000s. And that is on YouTube. so you can actually go watch his lecture and it's good he did he did a lot of work on this no else really dove into this as it were uh the way that he did and so i'm very much indebted to his research on this to put this together but yeah i think lemmy island uh it seems like a uso recovery yeah the real question they have to ask is why if it comes down at the end of july you've got august september october november december five months why would the

Navy had waited five months to pick this thing up to beat out this private group that was going to scoop them and I don't know the answer to that. Yeah, that is interesting. Man, just the fact that the guy was standing on top of it. And he said he felt a hum. That's crazy. What courage to do something like that. These guys were convinced they were going to make a million dollars. Okay. That was part of the thing about this team. This was an interesting backstory, apparently. The whole thing fell apart because they went back to next day. They couldn't find it.

And then they started, even before they went back, they were all fighting with each other over money and over rights and over the photograph that they were going to sell for, like, you know, millions of dollars. Like, they just saw the dollar signs. And you could see this happening. Like, they just, they got way ahead of themselves, got way too excited. and they fired the first guy who dove down, John Walker, who, like, he was the organizer of this whole thing. Apparently, he pissed off everyone else on the crew. And they were like, we're voting you off the island.

You're gone. So he was basically kicked out. So, yeah, it was very acrimonious. Interesting. Yeah. Money talks, baby. Money talks. I love that.

No one ended up with anything. Exactly. Maybe they got what they deserved, Rich. Well, you know, it was exciting. You can kind of understand how they were feeling, right? Like, it's like, oh, my God, I stood on a flying saucer. Like, yeah, you want that. You want to bring that up. You want to get famous. You want that money. I didn't imagine you're going to be able to get somehow. Yeah, he's probably, he saw it was made a gold, too. He's like, ah, we literally struck the game. We literally struck. Yeah. That's an interesting case.

It's fascinating. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. I've never heard of that one. I've never heard of this last one, too. And then I think what we'll do is we'll whiplash over just some modern day uphology, but I have to ask you about this one because it takes place in, of all places, probably the most mysterious triangle out there, the Bermuda triangle. This is the USS Saratoga. So what happened there? What was this one all about? This one came to me directly from an active duty U.S. Navy officer that I personally spoke to. So this one came right to me. It was never anywhere else. Although I think I wrote about it in one of my other UFOs through the 21st century mine, I think. So there is an account of it, but it really belongs here.

So, yeah, so 15 years ago, I met, you know, I had a separate life. I wrote professional resumes for job seekers, for thousands of people. And they would come in. I'm writing UFO books, but I'm also doing this thing because I had to make my money. And I met with this Navy recruiter, who was a U.S. Navy captain at the time. Or was he a captain? I think he was. He was an officer.

And he said, he looks at the side of my wall there. He says, oh, I see you're really into UFOs, aren't you? I said, well, you could say that. So before he left, he told me. me this account. By the way, this guy, I really liked him. Not that this matters, but he was like six two rock solid. I'm thinking if there's someone that's going to defend my country, I want it to be that guy. Like he was very level-headed. He was, he looked like a Navy officer. Like he just had, he came across very professionally, very intelligent, and I just thought he was very credible.

So what he said to me was, yeah, I was a signal man in my early years at the Navy, aboard the U.S. of Saratoga and he chuckled when he said yeah we were in the Bermuda triangle ha ha and uh it was may of 87 he said and his duty at that time as a signal man was to he was an expert in light identification so he uh light configurations if it's this that means it's this aircraft if it's that it means it's that aircraft and he was uh very very proficient at that so he's out on the deck it's midnight and he's just doing his duty and he He had a couple of other things to say about the fleet that he was involved. The fleet commander at the time was Admiral Jeremy Borda,

who was a famous and kind of a tragic story in the U.S. Navy. But anyway, so this guy, he's looking off into the distance. It's pitch black, and he sees a light rise from the horizon and then stop. So he's thinking, okay, that seems odd. And he's in watching this light zigzagging, he says, in the direction toward their ship. This is coming toward the man of zigzag. And now he's thinking, no, I really don't know how to identify that. That doesn't make any sense to me.

So he's on communication with people on the bridge. They're like, do you see that? Yes, we see that. What is that? We don't know what that is. And they send an A7 corsair aircraft toward this to investigate and or intercept or whatever and that aircraft suffered some kind of systems failure and it had to um actually it did not return the pilot had to eject and was rescued they lost the aircraft that's right so the aircraft

so you think about you're you're on approach to this thing and somehow your aircraft no longer functions and you have to eject it's pitch black you're in the bermuda triangle and there's a UFO coming at you. Yeah. That's the story. I don't think you can get more drama than that. So yeah, fortunately the pilot was recovered alive and everything was good. So then they dispatch, they send an F-14 Tomcat, which at the time was the Navy's top fighter

interceptor, for sure. So they send the F-14 off, and the Tomcat gets to a certain distance of this thing. and then it just zips off. It just like takes off so fast. Like instant acceleration, it's gone. The F-14 had no chance, apparently, to approach this, which is saying something. About a year after I was told that story,

I did another resume for another former Navy guy. These Navy guys are great because many of them stay in touch. This guy had served aboard the Saratoga. and he said he left service of the Saratoga about a month or so before this event or a couple of months before, early 87. But he said, but I stayed in touch with the guys, and I learned we had lost an aircraft. But I'd always heard it was some kind of, you know, practice malfunction or something like that. Yeah. So, but he had learned that they'd lost an aircraft.

And by the way, the crazy part of the story, I haven't even told. so I'll just say it here, as if that's not bad enough. So about an hour after this sequence of events, according to this Navy officer talking to me, he said, the next thing was kind of crazy. The ship went on battle stations, went on general quarters. I didn't know why at the time, but I learned the next day why. There was a sailor walking below the deck,

and he said, A man in gray coveralls walked through a solid bulkhead. So a solid support wall underneath the ship. Like bulkheads are very important. And I guess you know she can't walk through these. It's steel. Walks through the bulkhead and says, A-Main is going to blow up.

At which point I asked the officer, I said, what's A-Mane? He said, that's the ship's engine. That's the man-ships. Oh, my God. So he said we have naval intelligence and other hot shots. They all go to the main engine space there, and they discovered what he said to me was the largest fuel leak. He said, in the history of the USS Saratoga.

And the exact words to me was, one spark would have sent the ass end of our ship into the water. So they cleaned it up. and everything was fine. So who was this mysterious figure? Like, the sailor who had this guy talk to him, I think he was highly distraught. And if I remember correctly, the man, the mysterious man, maybe walked back through?

The bulk of him just caught. I don't remember how he left. I may have written it out, but I can't remember offhand. Anyway, that's the story. And, you know, the guy who told this to me, I don't think he was trying to make me believe that, but he said, yeah, it's just one of the craziest, crazy-ass stories that we have in our ship that we heard, the scuttlebutt. And he's just telling you the way it came to me.

So, wild. So, yeah, the Soviets are the only ones with these crazy stories. Oh. American Navy personnel have them, too. Wow. That is, yeah. And I'm so happy that you actually got to talk to, like, the primary sort of

witnesses he was a good guy in my time when I used to do all those professional resumes I had a lot of Navy guys for whatever reason and I mean most of the people I've worked with

were just ordinary folks but sometimes military and some Navy the Navy guys always had the most interesting UFO stories by far of any of the services and I remember more than one of these Navy guys just being very mysterious with me

before I was really doing USO research specifically, but they would say things like, yeah, man, you have no idea how crazy it can get on these ships. Like, with the implication being, it gets pretty wild. So if there's any Navy people listening to this, I'm going to watch this for comments, and I would love to hear. Comment below, guys. I've heard this from several U.S. Navy personnel retired.

They say, yeah, it gets pretty crazy. Not everyone, but, you know, enough. Yeah. Enough. Yeah, enough to fill two volumes so far with a third coming. That's crazy, Rich. Well, I mean, I could talk U.S.Os all day, but I feel like we definitely want people to go read the second volume for sure. Here.

But this is the second volume, yeah. I love that. Who did the illustrations, by the way? Alan Levine, who has become a very good friend of mine. Okay. Alan was an APRO investigator back in the late 70s. Appro was the Ariel Phenomena Research Organization. He knew he was friends with the founders of that group, James and Coro Lorenzen.

They're kind of OG legends and UFOs. Alan was a young guy back then, and he went on to have a number of successful careers in different areas. But one thing he's very good at, he's an excellent artist. And he did some really cool illustrations. uh for this book let's see if i can yeah here's one uh off of uh the coast of uh the allusion islands a little object oh wow you say that um yeah that is gorgeous place called adak island uh alan yeah he did a number of really good really great um great illustration i'm very grateful to him yeah yeah yeah it really get it paints more context for sure i love that absolutely yes

Well, let's move, I think, to something else that we'll tie into USOs a little bit. Now, you just dropped, as we're recording this Monday, September 21st, you dropped a video, your reactions to the Sixth Trench that the Pursue Initiative that has released. And, you know, feelings are mixed, feelings are mixed as they have been with all of these releases. And before I get to the why, the why this is happening, Rich, what did you make of Trench 6? Did anything really stick out to you? I know a lot of us were immediate to react and be like, ah, there's nothing good. Yeah, you had the Edward Group Health audio, which was fascinating to listen to and everything.

But were there anything you think people should really pay attention to that came out in this most recent? Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. Hello, this is Ryan Sprague, the host of Summer in the Skies. If you're enjoying our podcast, our live streams, and our videos, and you'd like to support the show, there are several ways to help while unlocking exclusive perks. Join our Patreon community for early access to episodes, priority guest questions, exclusive articles, bonus content, and access to a growing community of fellow UFO enthusiasts. You can also subscribe to Summer on the Sky's

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And thank you for supporting independent content. And I hope you'll continue to join me somewhere in the skies. Really, I'm very struck by the fact that people love to hate on these releases. Because, you know, everyone wants full and total complete disclosure now, which I understand that. And that's just not going to happen. Like, that's not going to happen. At least in my opinion, is very unlikely to happen. But what we're seeing with these releases of these UAP or UFO files,

this is the sixth one now of this year has been released, is basically I think the Trump White House is reacting to... What you're seeing is, you know, the last 10 years we've had this kind of... I look at it as a battle, it's a tug-of-war. You've got certain factions within the establishment who have always believed that there should be some more openness on this subject of UFOs. That doesn't mean that they all believe it should be complete disclosure. I don't know that that's the case. But there have been differences of opinion, and these go back to the 1950s at least.

So there've always been groups within the military that are like, we need to tell the public a lot more than what they're being told. For different reasons, they might think this. But this has always been the case. And I think now that we're in the age of, I mean, so much connectivity and the web and information being able to be shared so easily, that it doesn't surprise me that in the last decade there's been a kind of crescendo of pressure coming from within that group. And so I think it's causing pressure on other elements of the system, and these other elements are responding by basically absorbing the problem, which is what systems do. like they're not really going to reform they're going to give you as much as they're as much as they

have to and as little as they have to to to keep you off their back i think that's really what they're doing and so the trump white house some people decided that let's give these people some information it's really not going to give the game away we're just going to give them what we what we have in these archives and maybe that'll be that'll satisfy them and i really think that's what you're seeing uh so What we've seen is some very interesting historical documents have been released over all of these. For a person like myself, I'm fascinated by many of these historical PDFs that have been released. I realize people don't want to read the PDFs.

They want to look at the videos. But there's a lot of valuable information in these historical records that many of them I had not ever seen, going back to 1940s and 50s and 60s. So I think they're worthwhile. I mean, from that point of view, if nothing else. And you get that with this last release, the Edward Rupelt audio from 1952, is quite kind of fun here. I mean, Rupelt ran Project Blue Book. He's famous.

He wrote a really great book on this back in the 50s. He died at a young age. We're interested in him, and there's an hour-plus audio of a lecture he gave to a military group in the 1952. Kind of neat. And there's a re-release of an important film of recording of UFOs from that same year, from the state of Utah. That's historically important. We could talk about that, I guess. But to me, the key things were some of the CENTCOM videos, and actually some of the Indo-Pacific videos.

And particularly, even though these have been out for a few years, four years now, but were the 30-7sacom. scientific papers that really were the foundation of the original OSAP program in 2009. Right. Now, these are very significant. Now, they are all available on the website of John Greenwald, the Black Vault, and they've been there since 2022. But I don't think anyone's paid attention to them. They've gotten very, very little attention.

And I just think that's a horrible shame, because what you really have with this is you know and awesome what is it the advanced aviation web strategic weapons systems

application too many acronyms yeah anyway that was the original version of atyp and

and that contract goes to Robert Bigelow really what that was about I listened to a lecture given by how put off on this many years ago and he said the problem we had

is what we were trying to do was to understand UFO technology That's what it was all about, 100%. He said, but what we wanted to do is ask leading scientists around the world to participate in thinking about how UFO tech actually worked, but we couldn't really just go out and tell these scientists that's what we wanted. So Put-off crafted a kind of a proposal by which they would say to these scientists, we are looking for your input on state-of-the-art technological breakthroughs that might exist

circa 2050, the year 2050. So 40 years in the future from then in areas like propulsion, aerospace, materials, anything that was related to UFOs, they tried to position it that way. And the result were these 37 papers that are fascinating. I mean, just fascinating papers. So, Hal Putoff wrote one of those papers, which was on space-time metric engineering. So, you know, if you're interested in, you know, how might a craft be able to travel in an interstellar fashion. And what he's essentially hypothesizing here, it's not that he's proven, these are all theoretical, but he's like, if you're able to manipulate the spacetime fabric around your craft through certain types of materials, interacting with certain types of electromagnetic frequencies, or the quantum vacuum zero point energy of space, assuming that that can be tapped, all of these different things, are we able to.

them manipulate space time around us so that you're not exceeding the speed of light within your little bubble but in fact you actually are so that was one example of a study there were studies on on meta materials which we've heard of the famous meta material that is studied by the army crowd a project which by the way i i strongly believe that they did not do either a good or perfect or honest study of that material. Because they basically concluded, this could have been manufactured by state of the art in the 1950s or 60s. Of course, they don't identify what organization could possibly have done this.

Right. Anyway, so there was a study of metamaterials that essentially hypothesized, well, if a metamaterial would be something that it's, It's designed at a microscopic level in such a way that it gives the material these unusual properties. That could bend light or change light, maybe change the speed of light, or do all these other weird things. That would allow the material to have these incredible properties, which might include interacting with space time around it. So these were the types of studies. I mean, this is far out physics and certainly well beyond.

any knowledge base that I have. But they're fascinating. And it just shows you've got this U.S. government-funded study, series of studies, trying to figure out what could be the science behind some of these UFOs that allow them to do the things that they do. That's what this really was. You think about this historically. It's a fascinating moment in the history of America's interaction with UFOs

and in the history of American government that we're funding these types of things. They're basically theoretical, but I think historically they're quite important. So those were all released or re-released. And it's true that they have been available on John Greenwald's website, but I personally think it's noteworthy that the U.S. government just kind of owned up to them and put them out in this release officially. So I'm hoping they get another life because they really, the only people paying attention to these documents, it seems to me, have been some occasional

skeptical attempts to debunk them or just to talk about how silly the science is or unproven or whatever. But I think they're quite valuable. So those all came out, and I think that's not trivial. The videos in the tranche are, the problem with all of the videos that have been released in every one of them is that all the technical data has been redacted. So it is impossible to... to calculate speed or altitude or all these important things that you'd want to that you need. If you want to do an independent analysis and we are prevented from that.

However, I mean that's a significant obstacle. But when you look at the videos, I mean, I'm watching these objects that behave in ways that I don't know of any drone in the world that does what these things look like they're doing. directions very rapidly at high speed. I mean, very, very rapid directional movements. And a couple of those videos, the object being tracked is so tiny on the screen, but you can see it. And you can even see the

signature, the trail that it's leaving. There's something going on there. So it's not, I don't think we're talking about birds. There is one that was over some place in the Middle East. I don't think they said where. starts out, there's like a communications tower or something in the beginning, and you see these six or more glowing objects, these orbs. This has been discussed maybe more than the others. So you watch them maneuver, and they're obviously changing in relationship to each other.

There's no collision. Now, there are drones that can be programmed for, like, collision avoidance, but I don't think at the speeds that these things supposedly were at. These things were being tracked, according to the report, at, I think up to 480 miles per hour, which is pretty fast. And with exceptional maneuverability. And that was, I think, either 2022 or 2025 or sometime around there. I'm not saying that these are all extraterrestrial, but even if they're drone tech or if they're, like, you want to know, like,

who made these? These are pretty high-level things. And I don't, I'm not aware of, I mean, I tried to research this. so that doesn't make me an expert, but I could not find, even remotely, any drones that could fulfill all of these qualities that some of these videos show. So what does it tell us? It tells us that the U.S. military, not just in the 1940s and 50s, but in the 2020s, this decade is still encountering objects that they do not know how to explain, that seem to exceed the performance capabilities that we currently have. That's what it really comes down to. That's what it looks like. And you're seeing that in these videos.

Again, we're not getting the data, which is, I mean, I would like, maybe someone can file a freedom of information request and demand that data. Maybe we can get that. Because it would be useful to be able to get the, to be able to do proper analysis. But the fact that we're not getting, it doesn't mean that these are worthless. They're useful. It's not disclosure. not Donald Trump saying people, aliens are here. Okay. So that's not the case.

But. Yeah. It's not disclosure, rich, but it is a form of transparency. I will give them that. Like, they're trying. They're like, look, this is what got reported to Arrow. We're now giving it to you guys. Like, maybe you can try to figure it out. But when you do live in that low information zone, I guess, as the skeptics would call it, like, it is hard to determine what. any of this is. I would hope that if it was captured on a military you know device of some sort that they would A

know it's not birds and A and B know it's not drones hopefully to the point that it is anomalous therefore it goes to arrow that's correct so yeah that's what my hope is that at least the videos we're seeing they can't have

a mundane explanation or they wouldn't be I guess unidentified. They would not have been in the release. Right. Right. I mean, that by definition. The people who want disclosure now, I, you know, I don't know how widespread this is now, but I'd heard rumors, which I do not believe, that the Trump White House is going to make some disclosure statement before the midteries.

And I'm like that, first of all, you wouldn't even want that to happen. People who are fanatics about, I mean, I would, I believe in disclosure, but people have got to understand. There's timing. You're looking right now at the cracking apart of the United States Empire. It's happening right before our eyes. It's going south in the Middle East. Everything that they've tried to do in Ukraine

is going bad to worse. Nothing is going right. You have Saudi Arabia that, who knows if it's even going to exist a year from now? There are problems here. We have $40 trillion of debt that's never going to be repaid.

This is a like a bad situation for the empire. And so, you know, I'm reminded, during the U.S. Civil War, Abraham Lincoln drafted the emancipation proclamation in the late spring of 1862. And he wanted, he initially wanted to announce it right away, but he was talked out of it by William Seward,

his secretary of state. Seward said, look, sir, we're losing battle after battle against these rebels. And if you do this now, it's just going to look like a desperate move. Why don't we wait till we have a victory? And Lincoln's like, yes, absolutely, you're exactly right.

So, in other words, they understood timing. If Donald Trump were to do a disclosure, like, now, guaranteed, like, more than half the world would be like, why are you telling this is now? Right.

When everything else is going bad. So the whole message would be, like, people, I don't think, would be really listening. Plus, if he does this, he has got to bring major receipts to the table, or it will fail. It will fail. And you have to ask yourself, does he actually have them? Does the United States president?

Donald Trump doesn't matter. Joe Biden, Barack Obama, George W. Bush. Did they have access to all of this information that would be able to prove to a. skeptical scientific community worldwide to a and in the case of trump to half the nation that hates his guts and half the world or more that doesn't doesn't trust him like he's got some hurdles to overcome and i don't say this as someone with an emotional disposition toward don't trump i've pissed off many of my friends who wanted me to hate him more or wanted me to love him more and i just don't satisfy anyone there but i really try to be objective when i look at his career

But the fact is he's very divisive. That's not a radical thing to say. And so for him to do a disclosure, he really has to do it well. I heard something to the effect that Robert Bigelow spoke to Donald Trump, maybe not long ago. And he said, yeah, you should do a disclosure as you're boarding Air Force One. And I thought, that's like the worst idea. Yeah. imagine that's the worst to have the hudel trump to you with disclosure as yes yes i've heard the aliens

are great people that's spoken with them they love they love me they love america uh we'll have more to say about yeah yeah and then he gets on the plane no like that that is not going to work you you do not want uh if he really were to do this honestly i would say get your ducks lined up work like spend the next year and put your act together, get as much as you can together, and yes, do it, but you've got to bring the data that an independent world can review. Because this isn't the world of like the 1950s, like Dwight Eisenhower. Dwight Eisenhower had gone on TV back then and said, we have aliens. People might have been inclined to believe it, much more readily. We don't have that world. So it's a, and it's not just Donald Trump, although he is like the perfect

encapsulation of what I'm saying, but really any, at this point, any U.S. president, I think he were to go in front of a camera to talk about this, they've got some hurdles to overcome. And you have to wonder, will they have access to the data to begin with? And that's not 100% clear to any of us that even the president has the knowledge of to be able to tell a world, like, yeah, this government's lied to you for 80 years. This is a political nightmare. Even if he were to say, well, I only learned about it recently, then you have to ask, well, who's been holding the damn information from you all this time? Who are those people?

Like, there's no easy way to explain this without a real political crisis that is likely to happen as a result of it. So there's not a lot of motivation that I can say for him to do it. Yeah, definitely not right now. That's for darn sure, no matter how much the disclosure people want it. I think the timing would be it could really easily go bad if they were to try to do it now. I'm not saying they shouldn't try. Like if they have a good game plan, I mean, maybe they do. I somehow doubt it.

But if they did, then, yeah, go for it. Yeah. There's never an ideal time. So, I mean, from the point of view of a political animal, but, you know, if you can do it and and, but then like what's to be gained from from him? Right. It's just like an ego thing that people like think like he'll just do it for his ego as if he has the ability to do it just for his ego. And I wonder. Yeah. It's interesting. Well, I guess to kind of play off of that, um,

I do have some listener questions, but I do want to ask you this because Christopher Mellon, just a few days ago, Rich, through the Disclosure Foundation, I believe it was, put out a letter to the Wall Street Journal. And you actually came out with a video kind of about this Wall Street Journal, sci-op sort of thing that had happened like mid-20205 when they came out with this two-part series about you know, the Air Force had faked all this stuff and were responsible. And this is a huge kind of psychological operation. At least that's what people thought. It was the World Free Journal's psychological operation. Yeah. But yeah, keep going.

Well, I guess my question for you, B, is what do you make of those articles that came out? Because good Lord, did they really make some ripples in the UFO community? And why do you think they did that? Like, what was the purpose for these journalists to come out with these? and then win an award of every, after all this, they won an award for it. Yeah.

Yeah, dude, they won like a National Press Club award for that. What a lot of horseshit that was. Well, I believe, so what, yeah, what they stated in,

it was a two-part article, yeah, it was in, I think, June of 2025. And they really just ripped the whole concept of,

basically stated that this, we have this, obsession with these UFOs. And part of the reason is that a lot of these stories that came out from the military were really not true stories, but were part of

an intelligence group like hazing of new recruits and they would tell them these phony bologna UFO tales and kind of create this false reality, like for kicks. I mean, it's the impression that they get.

They didn't provide any documentation. There was actually no like research. Like if you were doing this as a paper for your professor, you'd fail because You wouldn't provide any footnotes that anyone could check. There's nothing that Indicated this there were all of these anonymous sources that indicated the whole thing was Was just a lot of steaming pile of BS. I think it came out when it did because at that time there was talk about a third attempt at getting the UAP Disclosure Act through. in Congress. And it didn't happen.

Three years in a row, it just failed. But it was on the table. At least it seemed to be potentially on the table. Again, in the UIP Disclosure Act, actually when I look at it, I think it was a pretty decent piece of attempted legislation. It would have done a number of things that would have been kind of disruptive to the system.

And I think it would have obligated the military to be a lot more forthcoming with its UAP or UFO information. It would have provided some significant protection to whistleblowers. It would have established a process of declassification and a declassification review. There were a number of really good things. One of the things in there was a kind of eminent domain. clause that would have enabled, I guess, Congress to seize a non-human technology that was believed to be held by private corporations, things like this. So there's some pretty powerful language in there. And it was always an uphill battle for that.

But I couldn't help but think the timing of this article. Who reads the Wall Street Journal? Well, members of Congress do, and congressional aides do. They read the Wall Street Journal. And I really believe that this was a signal to any of these congressmen just on the fence. Like, you're not going to vote for this piece of nonsense. This is ridiculous. And I think that's probably what it was.

I think it was Wall Street Journal's Sciop. Okay. Against Congress. Interesting. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I know.

my own theory. I can't prove it, but that's what it smells like to me. That's a good theory, yeah. And I mean, Melon called for endless amounts of factual errors in the articles. Not a single person was named as a source. And I understand sources not being named in journalism. That's been a thing forever. But the fact that not a single name was attached to these articles was crazy. This has become a bad disease among American journalism, especially within the Belmont. Beltway anonymous sources, whether it's dealing with the wars in Europe or the wars in the Middle East, everyone's an anonymous source. Like, you can't really – so it's real – I think it's a decline of journalism. And it's basically just shows that journalism is just an arm of the state.

So I think that's really what that shows. I think that's what the Wall Street Journal is. That's what the Washington Post is. That's what the New York Times is. That's fair. They're just arms of their arms of the state. I can see that. I'm going to sort of compound some of the use of listener questions together because a lot of people had kind of the same questions. And a lot of our Patreon subscribers wanted to know from you, Rich, what do you think of these waivers that Pursue is now offering in terms of, yeah, with the whistleblowers and all that?

It seems a little, there's no information about it. Like, who is in charge of pursue? What are the waivers? What are the protections? Like, what do you make of this whole thing of the whistleblowers and the waiver system, I guess? Yeah, well, I've got some notes somewhere on my machine here, but since I don't have them in front of me, I'm just going on memory. But this is an important part. So the Pursue program, that's part of what's releasing the UAP tranches. It's the presidential UAP report.

something something's something so under that the the waiver it's like a it's like a whistleblower protection thing sort of really what it is like if you are a member of the military and you have important or information about you AP or UFOs that you want that you feel is important but you had you had been bound by non-disclosure agreements or excuse me special access program as a particular and type of NDA for the special access

programs. So if you were bound by either of those ordinarily you would not be allowed to talk to anyone about this, not a member of Congress, not anyone. But this waiver allows you to speak to a representative of the Pursue office and they

set up one Pursue rep in each one of the 18, I think is 18, US intelligence branches. It's like naval intelligence, Army intelligence, DIA, and all of us, CIA.

So you could go to a pursue rep in any of those at any of those offices, and you could tell them that would go, I guess, to the White House. That's really what this is. So it's not, it doesn't give you the

authority to go to Congress. It doesn't give you the authority to go to the public, for sure. But you can go to the pursue rep and tell them what you know, and then they'll tell Donald Trump or someone in the White House, and that's what they'll do. And that's literally all that it is. I've looked for the actual order. And I can't find anything other than the press release that they sent out a little over a week ago, I guess. And I have to assume there's got to be a more detailed order, but I have not seen it. So we don't really have a lot of information about this.

We don't know how much protection this really offers. Right. Like, in theory, you know, like, in theory, I guess you're not supposed to be punished by this. But how do they actually ensure that you don't get punished? Right. How, like, we have no idea, like, what actual provisions there are. So, like, if I'm a guy and I'm in the Navy and I, have a UAP encounter that I would love to tell someone, I don't know if I would be confident enough to go to the pursue rep myself

without thinking that might be career repercussions against me. So, or some kind of vengeance has taken upon me. And even then, all I'm telling is this one guy, I have no way of knowing, is there really going to be any follow-up to this? Is, you know, they kind of imply that some of this might get declassified, might not, you don't really know. So there's just not a lot of information that's been provided. I think, you know, we really want to follow up with this one,

and we want to know just how much protection is offered here. But the fact that it's only going to the pursue rep by itself, like, it's not even going to Congress. Right. It's not even going there. You would think that would be something meaningful somewhat. Yeah. People who can, yeah. Like, it should be going to people who can enact some sort of change or something, you know, if it's just going to like these reps within the government, it's like, okay, we're blowing the whistle to another member of the government that supposedly hides the secrets to begin with.

It seems more like a containment than an actual, like, disclosure. Maybe. Or the other thing that I'm wondering is if, like, you know, because the U.S. government is a big, big labyrinth of all of all of you. competing groups. So what if like people in the Trump White House, let's just say, they're thinking, damn it, we're not getting any of this information. We need this information. We want it. Those bastards at a, uh, ONI or anywhere else, they're holding out on us. Right. And so this would be a play on behalf of the Trump White House, maybe, to get some of this information as part of like a, you know, a turf war. Yeah. I don't know that that's the case, but I could imagine that that's one possibility.

Yep. Yeah, you're right. It's too soon to tell. I think, you know, they are referring all journalists right now who are inquiring about this. They're just saying, we got nothing for you. Send your requests to the White House. So I guess we'll have to wait and see for sure. Yeah.

Here's another listener question on Twitter. I'll breeze through these for you, Rich. You and Bryce Zabel wrote 80 after disclosure over a decade ago, imagining what disclosure would look like. What do you get right now? What is surprised you most about how this is all playing out? Has anything really rung true to what you guys said back then? What surprised you most about how everything's unfolding? Yeah, we wrote it 16 years ago. 16 years ago. Actually, almost 17 years ago. A long time. It was first published in 2010. So 16. It's a different world. A lot of things that we talked about, I think, were quite prescient, and certain things were just wrong.

The thing is, we wrote that book during the first Obama administration. So you go back that far. It really was a different world in terms of, I mean, I was cynical back then, but I wasn't as cynical as I am now. And I was still able to think, though, and Bryce definitely was able to think that the process could work where, a United States president could make a speech and the world would basically accept it. Yeah. I mean, that was the kind of the world that I think most of us grew up in. We thought this way. It was before, I mean, you look at the UFO community now. No one believes anything. No one believes anything. I read comments all the time on disclosure and there are people commonly will say,

I don't believe anything coming out from anyone. They're all a bunch of liars. I'm like, I get that. Of course, that makes it easy, so you don't have to really analyze anything, do you? It is a, I think it's a complex situation. But anyway, what did we get right? We got, you know, one of the things that we hypothesized

was that this could come out through a kind of faction from the inside. The main way that we, I imagined it coming out, was be through like a large mass sighting, which that did not happen. But there were other possibilities that we thought about. And one of them was kind of internal faction. And that actually is what we were seeing for these last 10 years. That's literally what it is. Chris Mellon's part of that faction.

Luis Alizondos part of that faction. People may choose to hate these people because they have a counterintelligence background. But like, like I say, for 20 years in this field, I've had conversations. conversations with people and all that we could say was, wow, wouldn't it be great if some people on the inside were to come forward with what they know? Like, that was the big thing. That's what we asked about all the time. That was the big missing piece. And then finally, it starts to happen. And you got half the country throwing rotten tomatoes of these people. Like, you're from counterintelligence. Well, yeah, you know, what do you expect, man? Oh, you talk about a potential threat. Well, yeah, you're military. Like, that's asking a hammer not to want to hit a nail. Like, it's what you pay him for. He's supposed to look for threats. It's a little disingenuous to be angry when these people talk about potential threats. That is their literal job to do that. So, you know, take it for what it is. But we get these insiders, and we did.

I think that was one of the definite things that we foresaw. The real thing that Bryce and I, I think, got right was recognizing just how disruptive disclosure really would be. One of the most interesting things about that book was exploring. how a potential recognition of the UFO reality would affect the world. And when we really tried to look into it, we realized, like, this would be a thunderous revolution on almost every level that I could imagine in terms of culture, in terms of politics,

in terms of economics, in terms of our educational institutions, like pretty much everything. And certainly in terms of our reaction to the political blowback. and the discovery of these deep, deep, deep levels of secrecy that have subverted, at least in the United States, the kind of classical Republican systems of government that we like to pretend we have. UFOs aren't the only thing that killed the old republic, but it's one of the things that killed the old republic, that in, I guess, empire. So I think, you know, I think what we got right is that a true,

genuine outing of this reality, this secret, would be terrifying to those people who are in power. And I think that is absolutely true. I think this is the thing that we still underestimate, which is just how explosive this knowledge and this secret is. Right. I mean, one thing people never do, I'm sorry, I think I could. One thing people never do is actually think or ask about these other beings. beings, these intelligence. It's like, who are these guys? And, you know, we're so fixated on our own politics. Like, when will we learn a truth? Well, okay, so let's just think about what this truth probably is. Okay, so we talked about some USO cases earlier in this conversation.

So there is one or more groups of intelligences that are exceptionally precise, organized, capable, able to control every single encounter with us that they want to control. We are not able to control our encounters with them. We are not able to do it. And then you get into other aspects of this where they clearly are able to screw with our cognition, our mind, our memory, frequently. We're not able to deal with them. This is my opinion, on anything like an equal basis.

and when I think about it, I had a friend, you probably know this man, but I'll just leave his name out, who once said to me years ago, out of the blue, he said, I think they mess with our field, like our psychic field or whatever. And I thought, you know, that's a pretty good way to put it, because I think that's what that can happen. Like, we may really struggle to deal with these beings. But the good thing is that they don't really. seem to be interested in having an open tete-a-tete with us either. They've got to be thinking, yeah, no, we're not going to really talk with these humans,

because first of all, they wouldn't be able to begin to understand the mental universe we inhabit. Very likely. And B, it's like, don't step on the flowers. Like, they're volatile, they're dangerous, they're territorial, but they're also brittle. and we are like we're all of those things I don't think we really would know how to deal truthfully with a genuine with these people these beings

I think I think we're incapable to be honest I get that rich I would agree with you I mean everyone is striving for disclosure but I think they really don't look at okay then what like you get the disclosure you wanted but I always tell people, maybe someday we'll get it, but we might not like it. And it could be something we never even possibly imagine either.

So we're so focused on the journey, you know? Yeah, disclosure and context. So there are two different things. So I think disclosure, pardon me, I think disclosure can and should and ought to happen, and it will happen. I don't know when, but I think at some point we're going to have some version of it. It will happen. I'm not saying it will be complete, but I do think I do think it will happen

but contact is a different ball of wax and I just yeah personally you know I've studied thousands thousands of UFO encounters at this point and I just don't think that I think we really overestimate our ability to manage this reality with these beings as a civilization and as a species where I just don't think we have it.

I don't think we have the ability at this time. And I think they might have to know. Imagine like if you and I were to go back in time a million years ago and looking at human ancestors as they were. So they're like human. You know, they stood on two legs. They were smart. They were the smartest primates in the world.

But their cognition was not what it would later become. They were using basic stone tools. They were figuring out fires, like really. awesome. What could we do with them? What could we tell them? Right. Nothing. Literally nothing. Without destroying their psyche and their society. Right. And now we think, oh, we're so much more advanced. Well, we're more advanced than Homo erectus, yeah. But if you've got a being that's got

25% more cognitive frontal cortex there than we have, guess what? They might be able to perceive space and time as a dimension in practical ways that we just can't. They might be able to understand consciousness in a very pragmatic way that we just cannot possibly do. They may see causality in an ultra, ultra-fine exact sequence of events that we just could not possibly follow. Like, there are just things that they might be able to conceptualize that will forever be beyond us. as we are in these meat suits of ours currently. So that doesn't mean that we're not able, that we're not like them. We are like them.

We're fundamentally like them in the sense that we like them are basically an informational species. You know, we do math, we do science, we have philosophy. Like we have abstract thought, which is not every animal has that, but we do. And we have the ability to manipulate our environment really well. So we have, we're kind of along their trajectory, but we're just, we're here and they're somewhere way over yonder. Somewhere out there. You know, it's so funny you mention that.

I was listening to a conversation between Robert Bigelow and Jacques Valet recently, and they were kind of discussing this idea that what if the non-human intelligence decides to just bypass humans altogether and just start communicating with our AI as that advances. Like we're no longer even a part of the equation. It becomes the advanced civilization, the non-human intelligence, speaking with another quote-unquote non-human or artificial intelligence. What do you think of that whole theory? I would have loved to sat down for that because I basically agree with that.

I think that's probably what is happening. The thing is, our development. How do I put this? Our development, in my opinion, is not really about us as human beings. Our development is about the ever-growing complexity and mastery of information that in turn is used for mastery over the environment. So, for example, think about, okay, you know, At one point, human beings developed the ability to fashion stone tools and wooden tools. We're like, oh, wow, I can manipulate the environment.

So that sets us off to the races because now we're creating artificial means to kind of like cheat the code of nature, right? And we build shelters. And so what that means is we now have to organize our societies around continuing that because once you start depending on all these things, you can't. It's like getting off of a drug. you can't. So once you start, depending on shelters, now you have to organize your society. Your job is to get the wood. You're going to have to figure out architecture. You're going to have to do this. You're going to have to make fire. Everyone's got a job now. And then we develop language because it's very

evolutionarily successful. Like if you're organizing all of these tools, you must have a way of communicating. And this is why, I believe, language followed. Language followed because it was it was necessary. And over long periods of time, we started figuring out, oh, I can convey information through sound. And you know what I mean. Wow. Okay, great. And so once you start having language, now I can share my ideas with you, and we can share

ideas with 20 people or 100 people. That's power. So we're exporting our consciousness. We're exporting our cognition. This is what civilization is. Civilization is really the process of exporting cognition. And you go further. Then you have written language.

Now you're exporting memory. Now if you die, well, it's not lost because it's written down on a clay tablet. Great. And then you have libraries, which you have organized, organized memory. And you have archives. And so the exported cognition gets better and better and more and more powerful. So during all of this time, the primary means of creating ever more complex bodies of information and data

has been through human beings and human beings organizing it. But then we invent computers. And computers like, oh, wow, this is an even better way of storing massive amounts of data. You know, you think about the amount of financial data that goes to the world every day, or the amount

of any kind of data, shipping data, logistics. Like, we are a world of data, massive amounts. And now, with artificial intelligence, and these recursive algorithms, this is another, this is evolutionary pressure. This is selective evolutionary pressure. It's exactly what it is, not biological, but technological.

And so the key to understand here is that human beings are not really necessarily the most important factor in all this. It's the information itself. and whatever is able to continue the growth and greater complexity and power of that information, that's what's going to win in the evolutionary selection race. And that may not be human beings. Okay? That may not be us. That may be intelligent machines.

That may totally be intelligent machines. There's something called The Red Queen Hypothesis. What's that? Okay. So it's in Lewis Carroll who wrote Alice in Wonderland, and his follow-up was called Through the Looking Glass. And there's a scene in Through the Looking Glass where Alice meets a character known as the Red Queen. And the Red Queen says to her, this is famous, well, dear, you have to keep running faster and faster just to stay in the same place. And that was taken by an evolutionary biologist back in the 80s, and it said, that's evolution right there.

In other words, and that's also technological revolution. So in other words, America is developing AI, China's developing AI, Russia's developing AI. If America says, well, we've got to stop with this, we're going to get our asses kick because China's just going to keep going, and they're going to swamp us. This is the Red Queen. Everyone's running, running, running, running faster to stay in the same place. a predator develops sharper teeth the prey has to develop a harder shell the predator has to develop better eyesight

the prey develops better camouflage it's on and on and on it's the it's an it's an arms race that's what life is and that's what technology is that's what human society is because we are a territorial competitive species that wants to control our resources and we are in competition for those

so we will always be like we cannot help ourselves man we are we are on this path. Cannot stop AI. You cannot stop all the weaponization of space that people are talking about now. It's going to happen.

Because that's the Red Queen. And so with information, back to this, and Bigelow and Valet's conversation, I think they're probably right here that if you were... Well, first of all, what are the alien intelligences?

I would get 10 to 1 odds. The alien intelligence is also civilizational. It's not any one alien being. Yeah. It's like, I don't know how to build an airplane

from start to finish, you know, commercial airline. No one does. But as a civilization, we do, because this person's an expert in this aspect, this guy knows how to do the avionics, this person knows how to build, put the wheels on it.

Like, all of that we put together. That's us as a civilization. We have a civilization. intelligence. And I believe that their intelligence at this point very likely is dominated by a very advanced, they'll say an artificial type of intelligence as well. I would be shocked if it were not. That doesn't mean that they're run by computers. It could be that there's a kind of cybernetic aspect to them where there's a biological plus technological enhancement. maybe that'll happen to us. If it does, we won't be human beings like this anymore.

We'll be something different. Different emotional outlook, different. It'll be different. Different psychology. Maybe unhealthy, maybe suited for a particular kind of environment that we create for ourselves. But we're not going to be like this. Yeah. We are the Red Queen.

We are the Red Queen. We live the Red Queen. We live the Red Queen scenario. We can't help it. We always have. Interesting. Yeah, I think it was even your colleague, Bryce Abel, who kind of coined this term jokingly. He called it N.H.A.I.

A. A.I. A. Non-H.-A.I. A.A.A. A.A. that whatever they are could possibly be using an artificial intelligence as well. I would say no question about it. Fascinating. Yeah. Awesome. Rich. Well, hey, I kept you way longer than I told you. So we'll save the other questions for another time. But a lot of fun. Oh, so much fun, man. Any predictions about what's to come in the world of euphology? What should we focus on? What should we kind of just brush off and disregard? Anything you can think of to leave our viewers and listeners and the new people who get involved in

this topic every single day. Yeah. I would say a couple of things. First of all, First of all, for anyone who's new, it's good that we are talking about potential disclosure. But keep in mind that this subject did not become interesting because of the possibility of disclosure. This subject is interesting because something is going on in this world. every single day around every part of the world and I really believe in our community we're spending less

time on these actual encounters and we seem to be fixating on the politics of disclosure within Washington, D.C. And I'm not saying that's not important but I do think we're taking our eyes off

the prize because there's actually stuff going on here with this phenomenon that is worth our time. an investigation. For that reason, I'm a regular visitor of the National UFO Reporting Center. I'm always looking at new cases there. And when I have access to the Mufon database, I do the same. In other words, looking at new cases is actually worthwhile. But in terms of predictions, I don't believe that there's going to be a disclosure before the end of this year, like some people seem to think. For 2027, I actually think that the biggest changes are going to be geopolitical.

We're looking at the end of the U.S. uncontested degemony of the world. And that's going to cause a lot of cascading problems as we move ahead. It's going to take place over several years. I don't think it's going to be right away. But we're seeing the failure, the really significant failure of the whole U.S. structure here. And you can see that whether it's Trump or Biden before him, these people don't really know what to do about it. They don't have a plan.

So that's going to be a big and growing problem. And I say this because it's relevant for the UFO subject because this doesn't exist in a vacuum. And one thing I've often wondered in terms of disclosure is on occasion, governments in the past, have had disclosure events, as it were, when their governments have been a major crisis or transformation, The breakup of the Soviet Union was one such example where a lot of UFO data kind of leaked out of the country.

And there are other examples. Happened in China after Mao Zedong died in 1976. There was a bit of openness there. And other places as well. So if you see that with the United States, if things go from bad to worse, I might not be surprised that we have a major, massive data breach or leak of, of significant UFO or UIP data. In fact, I think

I think that's more likely than an actual government disclosure. Yeah. I'm not saying that will happen, but I could, I can see it. Otherwise, I think we'll just see a continual letting off steam by the Trump

White House with these tranches. Yeah. You know, let the people have what they want type of thing. Give it to him. Let them eat game. Yeah. I mean, they're giving us as little as they have to. Yep, exactly. Exactly.

Awesome, Rich. This was fascinating. It went in directions I wasn't expecting, which is always the sign, I think, of a satisfying conversation. But obvious, last question, my friend. Where can we find the newest book, all your books, and where can we find everything that you're up to? Well, my website is Richard Dolanmembers.com.

There is a paywall, but there's a lot of free stuff. A lot of free stuff there. You can go there. It's got links to all of my books. But my books are all on Amazon.com. You can just search them out there. I have a YouTube channel, as you do. It's Richard Dolan Intelligent Disclosure. I don't know why we named it that, but that's the name of it. I do content like once a week, usually. And that's basically how you can find me. Someone can write to me through my website. There's a contact us. page of someone really wanted to reach out to me. Perfect, perfect. Yeah, and like I said, you just dropped a video on your take on Trench 6, so guys go check that out. Love watching your videos, man. And I just, I love talking to you. Like I said, you have been a supporter of mine since day one.

You published my book. You were the first on my podcast, and you're going to be writing a... Oh, thanks, man. I'm a Ryan's great believer. A believer. I thank you for that. And yeah, you'll be featured in my upcoming book as well, so I want to thank you for that too. So, yeah, this has been awesome. I loved the book, love everything you're doing, and I got to thank you once again for coming on Summer in disguise.

It's been my pleasure. Thanks to all of your listeners. And I'm going to come back here and check out the comments for any insights that people have on the conversation. Absolutely. Do you wish you could just hit Skip on the, worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned and today I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North

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