Somewhere in the Skies - Saucers, Spooks and Kooks (w/ Adam Gorightly & Christopher Graybill)

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

Is UFO disclosure finally happening… or are we watching the same story repeat itself? Today, we are joined by Adam Gorightly and Christopher Graybill to explore the cyclical nature of UFO history and disinformation. From the infamous Paul Bennewitz affair to today’s headlines involving whistleblowers, Pentagon programs, and promises of truth. We dicuss Gorightly's book, Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks, and Graybill's documentary of the same name, both of which expose how intelligence operations, belief systems, and misinformation have shaped, and reshaped, the UFO narrative for decades. Buy the book: https://a.co/d/0gpBtQAQ Watch the film: https://saucersspooksandkooks.vhx.tv/ Please take a moment to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple. Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://www.cameo.com/ryansprague51?utm_campaign=profile_share Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Substack: https://ryansprague.substack.com/ All Socials and Books: https://linktr.ee/somewhereskiespod Email: [e-mail] SpectreVision Radio: https://www.spectrevision.com/podcasts Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Closing Song by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2026 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #Disclosure #UFOs #UAP #UFOpodcast #ParanormalPodcast #UFOsightings #Unexplained #UnsolvedMysteries #TrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your host, Ryan Sprague. And today we are getting kooky and spooky with author Adam Go Rightly and filmmaker Christopher Graybill. And we're going to be talking all about their brand, documentary, Saucers Spooks and Cooks. Adam and Chris explored the hidden history behind saucers, spooks, and cooks where disinformation, intelligence figures, and evolving narratives have shaped euphology for decades. From Paul Benowitz and his descent into madness and secret programs, to Richard Doty and the spread of the MJ12 mythos, we examine how these stories took root in expanded far beyond their origins and left shattered lives in their wake. But this isn't just history, it's a mirror. As modern UAP revelations and new insiders take center stage,

were left to wonder whether we're witnessing progress or the insidious return of something we've seen before. Tonight, we follow those echoes, because where they lead might say more about uphology than we could ever imagine. Roswell. Alien bodies, multiple crashed alien spaceships, government cover-up. Dulce base. It didn't matter what base it was.

It was all the battle of underground bases and the aliens are coming in and all this really out there fringe areas. This is such a crazy-ass story. My God. Paul Benowitz was a scientist. He started noticing that there were lights doing strange things. These things lit up like balls of bright light and just took off. came up, went south, around the end of the mountains, gone. Yep, it's got to be aliens.

We don't know what else it could be. They're going like, wow. They decided to just encourage him with the outlandish ideas, one because the only people that would listen would be crazy UFO people and foreign agents. Richard Doty apparently purposely misleading Benowitz and for whatever purposes, which could be counterintelligence to confuse Russians.

Moore, to me, he was completely sold on Benowitz. And Benowitz, at that point, had become the paranoid. Man, it's like, what a gut punch. Everybody in that room, including Stan Friedman, had basically been played by Bill. I guess these days it would be more like that New York Times article. It just comes out of nowhere and just bang. Somebody's making an effort to push it through.

in the way that people accept information. And how they're using UFOs to potentially cover for an intelligence, kind of gathering, psychological warfare. And it's such a great freaking cover story. If someone like Paul Benowitz

and it's already there, you just let them do the work. Adam and Chris, welcome for the very first time. I can't believe I'm saying that. Somewhere in the skies, gentlemen. Yeah, thanks for having this. Yeah, of course.

Now, I, the reason I wanted to have you guys on today, and I'm going to be up front, I was just listening to a wonderful interview that our good buddy and colleague, Steve Berg, did with you guys about the book in documentary we're going to be talking about today. And Steve made a really good point. I think both of these, the book and the documentary, came at the perfect time for uphology. what we're going through today, which we will be discussing. But before we get to that, I want to start with you, Adam, if you don't mind, because the book came first. You know, I've got my copy right here behind me. I've got a couple copies, actually.

I believe I got an advanced one, too, at some point. The perks, I guess, being a podcaster in this space. But, Adam, the title is Saucer, Spooks and Cooke's UFO Disinformation. in the age of Aquarius. Loved it. Couldn't put it down. But what is kind of, I guess, your origin story? Before we even get into the book itself,

like when did you first get interested in UFOs? Give us the Peter Parker moment, I guess, for you, Adam. Well, in the 70s, as a teenager, I started getting exposed to stuff and was very arrested during that period, you know, you had the chariots of the gods and all the paperbacks you'd see at the supermarket, you know, intrigued. And, you know, it was the age of in search of with Leonard Nimoy, who was exposed to a lot of stuff there, close encounters of the third kind. So, you know, I was getting steeped in that. Then I had a psychedelic UFO experience in

1978 that kind of blew my mind and set me on this trajectory of UFO research and getting involved in the field. So, I mean, that's it in a nutshell. Hey, that is an awesome nutshell to be in, my friend, a psychedelic UFO experience. Is that something you can kind of spare with us? Like, what was that experience like if you want to go there? Oh, yeah, I can share. I've told the story a lot of times, but I try to put this in a nutshell, too. Myself and a friend, this was in lovely Fresno, California. Try to remember, it was 78 or 79. It must have been 1978.

We were at a party, and we dropped some acid as we were wont to do during those years. And the walls started closing in. The party was getting too intense. Let's get out of here. I was with a buddy of mine. Joe, and we've always had a Sympatico, wrote music together, had a kind of telepathic thing going, had that kind of rapport. So we take off, we're walking through suburbia,

and we say, let's go to the ditch bank. We can kind of get away from the houses and stuff out to the levee area. Before we got to the levy, I remarked, what if we saw some UFOs right now? No one would believe us. We both started laughing somewhat uncontrollably. And we hit the ditch bank, and it wasn't 15 minutes later, we saw our first UFO. We saw seven or eight of them.

They were all classic saucer shape, initially, cigar shape. They kept getting stranger and more cartoonish. one with a multicolored propeller so we saw seven or eight of these things

and as we're seeing we're describing them to each other and we're seeing the same thing you know so either we were having a dual hallucinations or somehow

influencing each other or there's a lot of explanations for this crazy experience so we got to the point on the ditch bank where we saw

the last UFO and that was a comet that came down and hung up in mid-air then turned into the last UFO we saw it and then we turned around walked back and we were when we were almost to the point where we saw the first UFO I should have I missed one little point there when we saw that first UFO I was so taken aback I fell to one knee and so anyway. So anyway, As we got, we were almost to that point, you know, maybe 50 yards away, saw a beam of light come down from the sky shining down where we were, where we saw that first UFO. The light was not emanating from anything we could see. And then that was it. That was the end of that experience.

Wow. As time passed, you know, when I initially I thought, yeah, man, we saw ETs. I was convinced then after a while, I wasn't so sure. My friend, after a while, became convinced we had seen ETs after initially not being sure what we saw. Now I don't know. Over the years, I've entertained a wide array of theories. of what we witnessed that night. And I think it was some type of experience going on

inside our, in our brains, you know, so to speak. But one thing to note is that, you know, before this whole thing experience started, I asked, what if we saw some UFOs right now? Nobody'd believe us. It was as if I had planted a seed of some sort. I often refer to it as. like an magic ritual, but an unwitting magic ritual. We didn't know what we were doing. So I think

it was a combination of that rapport I had with my buddy, some strong psychedelics, and just being open, you know. Yeah, it was like our good friend Greg Bishop would say. It was kind of like a co-creation sort of thing going on there. Like you either willed it into existence or you caught a glimpse of by using the psyched doubt. Like, I love that stuff. I've never really dug into that, Adam. I hope to in the future with the show. Like, because I know there's a lot of studies going on now

about how things like LSD or DMT can be used to try to communicate with non-human entities and stuff like that. But, uh, man, a conversation for another time. But thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Chris, how did you tell us a little about yourself before we get to your sort of your contribution to the whole saucers and cooks and spooks and all that stuff. Did you have any history with UFOs prior to working with Adam on this?

And what's your background? Yeah. So, you know, I'd seen all the movies, ETs and Star Wars and Alien films. And then I would be really interested in these like shows that were being played in the 90s, like Current Affair and Unsolved Mysteries and Citing. And so I was really curious about the UFO thing, but, you know, very skeptical. Like, it's kind of maybe, you know, they're just trying to make entertainment. So.

And then I was working doing tech support, and I met this guy, and he had just come back from this cult in, like, Georgia. And he was like, yeah, we saw UFOs coming down. and people were growing like 10 feet tall. And I was like, well, you know, what's so good book or, you know, what, like, turn me on to something that's really going to, you know, get me on the right path. And he busts out this Behold a Pale Horse book by Bill Cooper. Classic, yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, okay, this is it, huh?

He's like, this is it, man. You're going to be turned on for sure. So that's a gateway for a life. lot of people for sure yeah so that was my introduction into um UFO researchers um but then over the years i would like kind of get a little fed up with it of just not really going anywhere and so i would kind of back out of the scene and then i would get interested and kind of like get back into it but um yeah that's kind of a little my background with uh the UFOs but then it It was after we were making the film that I had never really seen anything, but it was after we were making this film that I looked up in the sky one day and there was like a plane that was coming out of a cloud.

It was like a 747 or whatever. And but it was never fully coming out of the cloud. It was like the cloud was enveloping this plane and it was moving with the plane. And it was like this weird magic cloud. And so, yeah, it was very odd. And I just looked at it for a long time. It was like, what is what's happening? Weird.

Yeah, that was my... You've been initiated. Yeah, wow, man. Yeah. That's really interesting. Wow. I definitely want to dig deeper into that, maybe with you off air here. Sure.

But cool, cool, cool. All right. Well, let's start, you know, with the book. Adam. Now, how did it come to be? Like, where, when did it go from like, you know, the cooks to the spooks? Like, you know, for so long it had been the contactees, the witnesses, like, this is a big part of ephology for so long. You go to these UFO conferences and it's people telling their UFO stories and alien abductions and all that stuff. And then it kind of shifted. into this age of disinformation, which I find fascinating.

And I know it's been there all along, and that's something I want to talk about to you. But tell us kind of the inception of the book. What made you want to write this book at this time? I really started with Tal Levesque when I met him. And, boy, there's a big story there in itself. but Tal was a rather spooky character, a behind the scenes player who did a lot to influence, you know, the paranormal-filled uphology, these type of things. He had contacted me in, when was that, around 2007 or so, at that time, I was involved with the Central California 14 group.

So I think that's why he contacted me. I didn't know who he was at the time. But he said at that time he was working on putting together a TV series called Mysterious Mariposa, a town, the mountain town that's nearby me. And if I had anything to share with him, you know. He also said he had been an advisor, producer for an unlawful. Alien Underground Base episode of UFO hunters. So, you know, you get a lot of emails and stuff from people. You don't know if they're legit or not.

I contacted Nancy Burns. I was writing for UFO magazine that time. And she put me in touch with her husband, Bill Burns, from UFO hunters. And I asked him, do you know this fellow? Is he legit? And he says, yes, he knows things. So I was intrigued. I did a breakfast with Cal, which I write about in the book, and he started unloading him and his partner, John Rhodes, he also may be aware of, telling me his whole history is a security guard at secret underground installations.

And he mentioned how he'd been key in distributing the Dulce papers back in the day in the late 1980s. and I asked him how did he come to Mariposa and he said he had gone there on a mission for Dan Akroyd. I didn't know quite how much to believe and I said he said the reason the mission he was performing for Dan Aykroyd was he was scoping out California to find a safe haven and this was kind of based on the idea that we'd have the deluge eventually and there's these different maps that have been made of the what California will be like after the earth change, you know. And one is that Mariposa will be an island. And so they had decided this was a possible safe haven. What Ackroyd wanted to do, according to Tal,

was start a house of blues in Mariposa. And the idea that Tal is an expert or a self-proclaimed expert of the inner earth. and he talked about a limestone cavern that ran from the San Francisco Bay Area to Mariposa. And they would use that as a shuttle system that connects to a local rural airport to shuttle Dan and his crew to the House of Blues place. So I didn't know how much to believe in any of this, you know, but I found over time that there was some kernel of truth to everything, TAL told me. And that other people told me that, yeah, Ackroyd had been close friends with Peter Ackroyd, who was Dan's brother. And that TAL said he had worked on a show called SciFactor back in the 90s that Dan produced in Canada there. So anyway, but when I got, so he helped release the Dulce.

papers and that's something they started looking into researching and writing this article is going to be like a 10,000 word article called My Breakfast with Tal. But as I started looking into the Dulce papers, the Dulce base story, how they connected with initially Paul Benowitz and also they connected to the MJ12 documents. I started putting this whole story together. And, you know, I got to a point where it's like, yeah, this is going to be more than an article. And, you know, started developing the book project and worked on that for many, many years. And, well, we can pause there for a second if you want to go in another direction. I do want to dive into sort of the key players in it and everything like that.

I think we'll dissect that when it comes to the. the documentary as well. Adam, what I'd love to know is Dave Perkins. Like, how did, how did this come to be? I would say you are probably kind of the last to have Dave contribute to a book. And Chris, you're probably the last to have Dave contribute to a documentary. We lost him, unfortunately, a few years ago. Yeah. But how did you get him to write the forward to the book? What was your working relationship with him as well? And yeah, tell us a little about him. for our viewers, listeners. We got a lot of younger people who watch

who may not even be familiar with him, if you don't mind. Yeah, as far as some background on David, we've actually started a podcast, Sasser Spooks and Cookeks, because we had a lot of outtakes and material from the film, and one's an extensive interview with David Perkins, where he goes into his background. He was, you know, in the late 60s, he was a political active.

activist rubbed elbows with Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin and those types. He talks about this in the interview we did with him. He is also an academic. And as a postgraduate, he taught a course on outsider literature. I forget what university he was at, but this was back east. And at one point, you know, he felt. He needed to expand his horizon that the political activism and that whole movement had gone as far as it was going to go. And he became interested in communes, and he and his wife, who was a poetist.

In fact, she's written a book on this period of time called Pervoino. We don't need to get deeply into that, but they got a grant to go out to the West and visit different communes. and talk to folks and finally decided to move and live on a commune called Libre, which is the longest existing commune in the U.S. It's still active, and people basically homesteaded there, built their own homes. And so, you know, it was kind of a hippie off-the-grid type thing. So that was David in the early 70s or so. They were living out there.

And that's when he got interested in cattle mutilation research when he happened upon a dead cow at one point. And over time, he became the basic, basically one of the people you could point to as a cattle mutilation expert back in the day. He was tapped pretty heavily by Linda Moulton Howl in her film Alien Harvest. You know, actually it was most of the strange harvest, excuse me. Yeah, right, great. And it was most, a lot of the people that appeared in that, Perkins turned Linda Howe onto all the ranchers and Gabe Valdez.

And he shared with her, all his files and whatnot. So that was kind of his background in cattle mutilations. I heard him as I was working on saucer spooks and cooks. I heard an interview he did on the paracast, and it was probably 10 years ago or so, where he was talking about one of the key players in the story, Tom Adams and his relationship with a proclaimed abductee, Krista Tilton. And it's fascinating story we don't need to get.

into that aspect of it but i thought oh i need to interview this uh guy and i i was to the point where i felt i was i was done with the book i couldn't go any further than i contacted david and it started a whole new round of research and he turned me on to uh things i interviewed him for hours and hours and so that added another year to the book but it also added a whole lot of information in his perspective. I got him to write the introduction. And a great guy. I miss him quite a bit.

Absolutely. You know, I know he worked with Chris O'Brien as well. And, you know, I had Chris on the show probably a few months before he passed. So we've lost a lot of good people in the field as of late. So, you know,

I think this is a perfect time for their contributions to your work to now, you know, make it out to even more people. It's cool. I'm so happy you brought up the paracast too. It's funny. I actually, that's my comfort show, Adam. I actually put the parrach. I go back to 2006. I start from the beginning and I listen to the paracast every night to go to sleep. It's like my life. Oh, wow. But yeah, yeah, good, good throwback there. So, you know, there's been so many books written on UFOs. I've got

ton of them behind me there's thousands and thousands more out there um but none of them really touch on this topic of disinformation so what what kind of made you want to go down that route with this instead of kind of focusing just on the cooks aspect or anything like that what made you want to tackle this uh pretty prevalent and controversial side of the euphology well you know as i started working on the book. I really don't think in those terms, you know. I just kind of follow the story where it leads me and it

led, you know, starting with Tal and this whole Dulce thing, looking into that, it led me to the Benowitz affair because you know, the whole you know, don't want to, don't need necessarily get into all the mythos

but there was a story about the Dulce War and this underground base and you could trace it back to the Paul Benowitz affair, of course, you know, which was loaded with all types of government disinformation when he was getting played by Richard Doty and the like. So, you know, I just basically told the story as I saw it from that period where, you know, Basically, a lot of the tropes and euphology seemed to come out of the Benowitz affair and the disinformation that was sown by the likes of, once again, Doty and other players involved in the story. And as time passed, you know, when it got to the 80s or so with Talavsk, it was like another wave of this disinformation that started with the...

You know, and it was towel involved in government disinformation? I don't know, but he interacted with the likes of John Lear and other characters that basically took the Benowitz affair and turned it up, you know, another notch to inform euphology as we know it. Once again, with all these tropes, the really, a lot of them that started with Benowitz, the underground alien base, the abductee and Myrna Hanson, who had an implant in the base of her skull and how cattle mutilations were involved in, you know, the field of UFO research.

I'm not sure I answered your question, but I didn't, I didn't specifically start with the idea. I'm going to write a book about UFO disinformation. just kind of happened. I owe it to David for the title, Saucers, Spooks, and Cooke's. I had some working titles, but it wasn't Saucer, Spooks, and Coox, but there was a line from the book about Spooks and Cooke's, that's what you need to name the,

that's what you need to title the book. Thus, it, you know, was expanded into, Saucer, Spooks, and Cooke's. It's perfect. It has a ring to it, yeah. It really does. Absolutely. Well, that kind of brings us to saucers, cooks, and, I'm getting it wrong. Let me say that again. That kind of brings us to saucers, spooks, and cooks, the documentary. So, Chris, that's where you come in. Man. How did that come to be? How did this project come to be from book to documentary? I had been wanting to make a UFO film for a long time, and I was looking around. And I found Adam's book, a friend, you know, turned me on to it.

And I read it. And I saw like, oh, there's footage for this. There's footage for this. There's footage for that. Oh, there's the footage that I just saw on these other films, these Japanese documentaries of Tao. It was one of his only appearances on television, I think. But so it just made sense.

And so I contacted Adam and we started working on it. He got the plot points all down and we got a big list of people to interview. We went out to Albuquerque and Santa Fe and did the three big initial interviews with Norio Hayakawa and David Perkins and Greg Bishop. And from there, it just started filling in the story. And yeah, so that's it. Yeah, yeah. Now, Greg Bishop, I'd love to start there.

You know, a lot of people might be familiar with his book, Project Beto, which covers the, you know, the Benowitz affair in depth. But I would like to kind of break that down a little bit. I know it's extremely convoluted. and there's a lot of players which we'll talk about. But for any of our viewers and listeners who might not be familiar with the Benowitz affair, Chris, would you mind giving us kind of your perspective of what that is, who that person was? And yeah, I guess kind of the Cliff Notes version of the Benowitz affair. Yeah, sure.

He was a scientist that was, he had a company that was, it was actually had military cover. Yeah, military. contracts doing like humidity temperature gauges and stuff for whatever they are needed to do. But he had a, his business was like right on Curtlin Air Force Base or like right off the border of it. And then he also lived, you know, like 400 yards away from the air base. And so he was up late at night and would see these, you know, strange objects. flying around and he started filming them and he reported this to the base and they're you know they sent

Richard Doty and a few other people got in contact with him and you know just started helping him figure out what these things were and pushing him in the direction of, oh, it's extraterrestrials, it's UFOs. And so, and he was already into UFOs. And so I don't think that was a really hard cell for him. But that, you know, eventually led to like this big mythos being spread out into the larger UFO scene at the time. And then a lot of disinformation and people like glombing onto the story and making it their own. And it's like a game of telephone where the story morphs after a while. And it eventually led him to be hospitalized just because of his paranoia and how he was

led to believe these things about aliens. So how did I do? Was that footnote? Yeah. Adam, how would you grade Chris's version there? I'll give him an eight. Okay, skill of ten. Fair enough.

I don't think he was ready to do that. So I'm glad he did. I usually have to do this for interviews, and I look at different ways of telling it, you know, then I get sometimes, so it's so convoluting, get the timeline screwed up and how much detail you need to share. But, yeah, I think Chris summed it up pretty well. For sure. Yeah, I mean, it is. It's extremely convoluted, and I think it was manufactured to be that way,

which is what a lot of the book and the documentary really does. dive into. I mean, disinformation, we all know at this point, is a tactic where it's kind of, you know, a truth with two lies kind of sandwiched around it. And this is how it's worked for so long with this topic. And Chris, you did mention the name Rick Doty, another name that some of our listeners will be familiar with, but a lot won't. So Adam, would you mind kind of tell us who this character in euphology is, if you don't mind? Doty, his connection with Benowitz, and who we worked for, I guess. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here, hosts of Somewhere in the Skies.

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fresh ingredients and over 40 grams of protein. They're built to satisfy without slowing you down. Try wraps today in the app or at order. dot sweetgreen.com, available at all participating locations. So, yeah, Doty was stationed out of Curtland Air Force Base. Initially, he was like a security guard there, but got promoted as a special agent with Air Force Office of Special Investigations. And so he was part of the security there at Curtland, worked for a guy named Major Ernest Edwards.

And so, you know, Bill Moore is a part of this story, connected to Doty. So let's talk about William Moore for a minute. He was off of the, just written a book in 1980 with Charles Burley. on the Roswell incident and he was kind of an up-and-coming star neufology during that period. Moore was also involved with APRO, Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, the UFO group out of Tucson, as was Benowitz. So they had some connections there. So anyway, at one point, according to Moore's story, he was approached by high-level intelligence agent in some versions of the story.

He says it was CIA. I've heard other versions where military intelligence, but was contacted and he was given a deal. If he would keep track, basically being informant, keep track of different people in euphology, then it's part of that deal. They would share top-search. secret UFO information with him.

So he agreed to that deal. The concern during that period, at least according to the likes of Doty, a lot of the folks in euphology during that period like Benowitz were also civilian contractors. There was a bunch of guys, Ron Rieger, Lee Graham, these guys worked on parts of the stealth bomber project. and they're also involved in uphology so they were concerned about foreign spies getting to them and getting a hold of some of the secret classified information of projects they had worked on

and indeed this was happening during that period late 70s into the 80s that you had Russian spies and Chinese spies, etc. And so Doty became involved as like a proxy or middleman. Once again, according to the story. And they started using fake documents to disinform. Or, for instance, if you had a kind of phony document about a secret project and you passed it to a uphologist they could track who that document ended up with you know uh see what foreign spies are potentially interacting with um when they had when they had approached bill

more with this offer they buttered them up saying you're one of the brightest stars in uphology but really according to dotting in recent years he said it wasn't so much the ufos they were interested in it was contacts that Moore had with the that more had in the Soviet Union with the apparent spies or at least people who were journalists scientists and so anyway at one point during all this story dody was passing these documents dodgy documents through more he had shown him more one document called the Aquarius about the Aquarius project. It was a one-page document from a teletype, more looked at it, looked legit to him.

And then a short time later, Doty passed that document to get to him again, but had been altered to add ETs into the document and also something called Majestic 12. Doty encouraged more to pass that to Paul Benowitz with the idea that Benowitz would see it and wave it in front of the press and be discredited. I missed one little aspect of the story is about these secret projects they had going on at Curtlin. It dealt with like stealth technology and also satellite, the spy satellite transmission. and Benowitz was trying to figure out what this was, decode the signals, etc. So that's another reason why they wanted to discredit him with pushing this UFO narrative on it. Like Chris said, Benowitz already had quite a history with an interest in UFO research

dating back to the mid-70s, with once again, he was involved at that pro and became interested in the cattle mutilation phenomena. So it didn't take too much to eventually push him over the edge. That was the term I was going to use, Adam. Yeah, the fuel was already there. I think, you know, leave it to people like Doty to put the fire on it. Yeah, that's kind of, I think, what a lot of people don't really understand is that this wasn't like a guy driven to madness solely

because of Richard Doty and the likes of Richard Doty he already was as maybe you would say a kook to begin with and kind of put him over the edge with all this stuff. Something I learned in the film, Chris,

that I was somewhat aware of but I wasn't sure if it had been confirmed or not, maybe you guys can clarify this for me, was the involvement of Project Blue Books J. Allen Heineck in this quote-unquote disinformation campaign when it came to Benowitz. What was that all about? How did like the preeminent astronomer working with Project Blue Book who would go on to like create his own UFO organization, he's kind of like this this icon in the UFO field.

What was his possible involvement with the whole Benowitz affair? Yeah, it is speculation, but according to Greg Bishop, who Bill Moore told him that he was having drinks with Heinek one night, and he told him that he told him that he had passed this computer on to Benowitz supposedly. So that's kind of where, you know, that's where he comes into the story, but, you know, it's hearsay from, you know, two people removed. So who's to say? I mean, it does kind of check out in some ways that he would be there because Benowitz did say that he had met Heinek and he had showed him UFOs in his backyard. And Heinek had, you know, told him one out of 40 people was being abducted and just kind

of surprising stuff that you wouldn't imagine Heinek to say. But, you know, this is according to Benowitz straight from his mouth. So yeah, it's interesting to think about, you know, he was coming from Blue Book. and then he is, he winds up into the story. And it could have just been Bill Moore, like, seeding, you know, disinformation. But Greg Bishop seems to really think it was true. So we thought it was important to include in the film.

Yeah, it's weird. You know, I, and I guess it does make sense at that point, you know, Plinick was working for the Air Force. He was on their, you know, their payroll at that point. He's pretty much going to do it. Look at the whole. swamp gas thing in Michigan. They were telling him,

go tell the public this. It was more of a publicity thing than it was actually UFO investigations, no matter what you think the stuff in Michigan was, or these other 701 cases that Blue Book eventually did not solve.

It's interesting. I found that part of your film really compelling, because I was not aware of a lot of that. Bill Moore, this name keeps coming up. So I want to kind of rip the band-aid off on Bill Moore in terms of the the infamous Mufon speech. Adam, do you maybe want to touch on that with us, kind of break down what the Mufon speech was about? You mentioned this deal kind of with the devil that Bill Moore had made.

What was the Mufon speech and what role did it play in all of this? Yeah, it was 1989. and that's basically with the speech is when everybody really learned about the Benowitz affair. I mean, he wasn't, people weren't really talking about Benowitz prior to Bill Moore, spilling the beans. People knew about him. Researchers did. Linda Howe knew about him. And she was around 82 or 83 working on a,

documentary after the success of Strange Harvest was a documentary HBO tapped her to produce called, it was going to be called Alien Harvest. And so she was looking into the Benowitz story as well as Cash Landrum. And that's where she met Richard Doty, who gave her secret briefing and passed on M.J. 12-like documents, et cetera, and promised that he would share footage with her of a UFO landing. There was even talk about an alien in captivity, that there were video footage of. Eventually, they never came through. Doty got shipped overseas, and that kind of undermined.

minded her HBO UFO documentary So some people point to that is another more disinformation or underhanded tactics to kind of spin these stories

There was a lot of interest in the Cash Landrum. There was a lawsuit against the government by the witnesses of Cash Landrum that they had basically they had witnessed nuclear powerships and had been affected by the radiation, which caused cancer going down another rabbit hole.

I forgot the original question, right? Well, that is a good setup, but what was kind of the premise of the Billmore speech at Mufon? Like, how did it get to that fever pitch where this guy finally came out and was literally, like, booed off the stage? Like, what was that all of them? So people within euphology knew something was coming, you know. They didn't know exactly what. He basically laid it out that he had made this deal with the government. And he didn't mention Richard Doty at that time, but he talked about the Benowitz story and how, you know, at this time he started getting John Lear and Linda Howe they were pushing really the, you know, this next version of the Benowitz story about that.

how there's an alien invasion and an underground base and there was these secret labs and on and on and and once again more didn't name lear or how specifically but that's who he was talking about that we're spreading these new crazy stories and he said it basically this all came out of the benowitz affair now you people are all being played as fools And, yeah, people started screaming at him. Bill Cooper was there. What about the Constitution? What are you doing?

What you did to Paul Benowitz, et cetera? And, you know, they're ready to a couple times if you can find the video. You know, the MC had to step in and hush everybody down so more could continue with, his speech. When it came to the question and answer period, he basically didn't take any questions. He had questions already dictated that he wrote up and he answered those. That pissed people off all the more than he was done and he took off, exited up the back door and that was it. He was gone, left town, left Vegas. And basically he left uphology, though he did make some cameo appearance. over the years.

Yeah. At that time, he said he was stating that he was going to write a book about all of this, but he never did. Never happened. Yeah, it's interesting. And, you know, you guys do feature a good amount of the footage from that Mufon talk in the documentary, which, ooh, it's just painful. It's painful to watch. It's painful to hear the story.

Chris that you tell in the doc about Stanton Friedman, like sitting there, frozen, dejected, shocked. Like, you know, this guy kind of built his whole life around Majestic 12, the Roswell case and his colleague here saying, yeah, I've been lying to all of you guys because I, you know, I made this deal. I want to get into the dock a little more, but I kind of play off the Billmore thing. I'd love to know from both of you. I'm going to throw you a little curveball here.

would you have taken the deal that Bill Moore took, like to further disinform the UFO community or anyone interested in all this stuff? Like, would you have taken this deal from the government if they had promised you the truth, even though they didn't give that to Bill Moore? They just told him more disinformation. Like, Adam, would you take the deal? I just, I got to know. I got to know.

God, I've never really thought about that. I hope I wouldn't. Who knows? Okay. Where my head was at any time. Now, was there really that type of deal or was, you know, it's really something that, something that, uh, project that Moore and Doty were working on. Okay.

But Chris, would you take the deal? Well, if it was a real deal, you know, then, yeah, let's do it. You do have to wonder Like who else has been along for the ride Yeah Right I guess I guess if I really believe these guys And they had

You know Disclosure the secret information about Maybe I would you know Chris The doc First of all Um Little

Gushing time This documentary is amazing Like the aesthetics The music The um The editing like the story you tell only enhances the strong story that Adam originally wrote. But I have this birdie question.

Was that set real? Like, Adam, was that your actual office? That was amazing. That was the story behind that. That was a set we put together. Okay. And it was based in part on John Liris. and his office, you know, with all the monitors and shit behind him.

And also, you know, the kind of the joke about the researcher, UFO researcher that lives with his parents down in his basement. Yeah. Yeah, we got quite a few of those. They're still kicking. They're still kicking. That's for sure. The cooks, the cooks aspect.

I want to touch on that. Now, I have a series here. on somewhere in the sky is called witness accounts. It's literally people just call in and tell their UFO stories. I'm not in the episodes. It's their stories in their own words. What they think it was. No influence outside of that.

It's not an interview, blah, blah, blah. We're going on our 40th volume of that in the near future. And there has been a long history of actual UFO sightings. I mean, Adam, you've had one. Chris, you said you saw one after the dock, which is crazy, which is crazy. but that touches on another aspect of the film as well was um the cooks there was some humor in this some levity too which i think is very important so what made you guys want to kind of uh cover that aspect like i loved it i loved that sense of humor that you guys also had with what could be considered

a very serious and and disturbing topic um yeah what was that conversation like coming between you two of like we got to get some humor in this thing. Yeah, it's like first of all, I want to say I don't really consider Benowitz the kook of the story, even though he was, you know, he was into UFOs and everything. I don't think that necessarily makes you the kook, but I would consider the kukes in the film more of the people that kind of took that story and made it their own, like Lear or Phil Schneider or Krista Tilton. You know, some of these, maybe not so much Bob Lazar,

but, you know, some of the people that came after the fact. So, but yeah, it is such a dark story that, you know, like it's the military fucking with this guy. Sorry, I didn't know if I could concuss. Absolutely. Put it away, right? But, yeah. And so, and the way Adam writes is,

It's very humorous anyway, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to, like, I, you know, it resonated with me because you don't get those kind of books in UFOology, like, ever that I've seen. So, yeah, I was like, I definitely wanted to keep that humor from the book into the film. So I think we managed to do it fairly well. Were those your animations, by the way? I know that's kind of your experience, right? Yeah, a lot of that is my animations, I have a few animation buddies that help me out. So, yeah, shout out to Chris Baldwin and Angelo Donali. But, yeah, so it was a lot of fun to put into, you know, into the film.

While we were working on the film, Chris was also working on Beavis and the Butthead. Oh, my God, that's awesome. Bivas and Bette had do the universe. So it had like a cool Star Trek kind of thing to it. I'm so ready. I don't think we ever said we need to make this humorous. You know, it just kind of evolved that way. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, I think one of my favorite moments was when your character of Tell is going through the dumpster and then kind of sneaks away. That was, oh my God, I died. I died laughing. That was Tau's real story, so we had to put it in. Right, right, right, right. And the ending of the doc, obviously, we're not going to give it away, but I, oh, man, that's how you leave people wanting to further investigate this story. Cool.

Well, well done, guys. Yeah. Okay, let's move to modern day ephology. New York Times, Chris Mellon, Luis Eliz on. Pentagon, you cover this so well in the documentary. What made you guys really want to cover that whole thing, starting from like 2017, Tom DeLong and all of that? Why did you think it was important to cover those things?

I think it was one of the main things I wanted to do with the movie was, you know, take the old UFO lore and the old stories. and, you know, put the new stuff in context of that because there is a history of, you know, a long history of UFOs that kids don't know about and they just come in fresh with Lou Elizondo or, you know, whatever story they're picking up on. And they don't know this big history. So it was really important to, you know, keep that all together, which UAPs is like this great way to, like, separate it from UFOs.

So, yeah, that was an important part to the film. You know, we got to the point as we were putting this thing together. You know, there were so many threads that, you know, spread out from the Benowitz affair. After a while, we had to step back. And, you know, I was pushing. Let's just concentrate on basically telling the Benowitz story. if you start bringing in all this other stuff, even the Elizondo recent UFO history at first, you know, I felt, you know, that might be too much for the viewers to handle.

But, yeah, you know, even though I wrote about it in the book, that was kind of Chris's call to bring that in. I think, yeah, ultimately it worked out. If you remember the original 2017 New York Times story, part of it, you know, it was, Elizondo coming out claiming to work on this program but another element of that story was that in Las Vegas Bigelow's group had modified their facilities there to analyze what were they calling it the special alloys or the meta materials etc and that was part of the NYT story but once again Bigelow later denied that. Yeah.

Yeah, he like literally had a warehouse built to even put a full craft in. And the legend goes that the CIA put a halt to that. The craft was on its way to Bigelow's warehouse and they stopped. And that's being talked about today, Adam, you know, with Congress members going to these facilities now and knocking on the doors and being like, where's the UFOs? Like we want to see the UFOs. We've had congressional hearings. David Grush came forward.

Said you have it. Where is it? That's where we're at today. And it's fascinating to me that like these stories keep coming back time and time again. And you can tie them to these help putoffs and the aviary. And now, you know, we're getting the new version of that with all these newer intelligence people coming out too. It's, I mean, I don't want to hit people over the head with like this cyclical nature of disinformation and in uphology. But I mean, it's clear that that's a message you guys wanted to get across.

I think it's a message that we have to keep in mind every time a new revelation comes forward. A new congressional hearing is happening today. And yeah, again, I think like Steve Berg said in your interview with him, guys like this is the perfect time for both of your projects the book and the documentary um but what do what do you guys think about david grush and his claims that he knows the people working on reverse engineered UFOs and kind of going back to the whole bob lazar thing in a way too you guys mentioned his name uh everything old is new again so what do you make of david grush and all that stuff. Before you want to, yeah, go into David Grush, it's just like the algorithm, just think about the

algorithm that you're getting, that's feeding you all your stuff you're getting, you're getting into. That's Richard Doty. It's not so much the person anymore. It's, it's just like this continual algorithm of like, you know, there might be seeds of truth in some of the stuff, but like, just be really careful about what you're doing. taking in, I would say, regardless of who it is, if it's David Grush or, you know, whatever. But what, yeah, did you have a thought, Adam? Probably lots, but yeah, I'm basically pretty dubious about Grush, for instance, that he rolled out the old crash retrieval claim, you know, but he heard it from a secondhand source.

It's like, you know, that's what was unloaded on Tom DeLong, supposedly from General McCaslin, who's now missing. I was going to ask you guys about that. What do you make of that? Yeah, three weeks now, this guy's been missing. It's pretty bizarre. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, weird.

Very weird. And again, that's only going to add to this mythos. No matter It's tragic no matter what This man is missing It's been over three weeks Like it's clearly Something very probably bad has happened

I'm hoping for the best Expecting the worst as we often do But this will now become A part of the UFO narrative No matter what Yeah Yeah And you know

It's almost like Benowitz Like he was a kind of a tragic example of what this disinformation can do. So I don't know where I stand on General McCastland and what he knew, what he didn't know, if this has anything to do with his disappearance. Probably not, but the question remains until the mystery is solved, I guess. So I don't know. I don't know. I'm kind of going off on a tangent there. But yeah, apparently we're living in the age of disclosure, guys you know there's a new documentary out literally called that but um Adam you wrote about the age of Aquarius and I think it's very important that we look back at

that age and see you know where it's led us up until today so yeah yeah again I can't thank you guys enough for like doing this it's so important I've been doing this podcast now for almost 10 years which is insane I was once the young gun of you for as it were and now I'm one of the old cynical guys and but you know what that happens for a reason and and it's because you eventually get to a point where you start seeing these things repeat themselves and I feel like that's where we we are at at this point um is there any truth behind UFOs that's kind of my my last major question for you guys like I think what you have laid out in the book and the document

is a cautionary tale of what ufology can be, but is there a uphology on the other side of that? Is there a core mystery going on? Are there aliens? Are they interdimensional? Are they time travelers from the future? Like, what are your guys personal thoughts on UFOs? Whoever wants to take that? I know that's a huge sweeping question. Man, yeah, that is a big one. I go with time travelers. Yeah, time travel. That's a good interdimensional I've always liked.

Or like chaos magic kind of stuff. Well, yeah, that goes back to my psychedelic experience. Yeah. I would bet on that one the most, I think. Yeah. And I didn't mention the theory that made the most sense to me was the John Kiel Super Spectrum theory where you enable to see through UFO windows, maybe what's always there, you need to enter that certain state of mind.

You know, psychics are there. Meditation might bring you to that. In other cases, these drugs like DMT or ketamine can open up. that space where, you know, maybe they're not from another planet. They're existing with us all the time. We're this not able to tune in to that super spectrum as Kill referred to it, like tuning in a radio to a certain frequency to be able to observe these things. Anyway, that's a fun theory.

It is. You know, it kind of reminds me of that, you know, we got that big Steven Spielberg event movie coming out at the Disclosure Day. And just from the trailers, you're kind of getting this vibe that maybe they're dealing with that, like, UFOs or aliens have been here with us

all along. Maybe it's interdimensional. I'm very curious to see what they kind of go with in that film. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be an interesting couple years with Hollywood and UFOs for sure. And I would put what you guys have done with this documentary

up there on the top shelf, these things because yeah yeah i think people are going to be thoroughly impressed when they see the doc and obviously when they read the book so um obvious last question before we go guys um where can we get the book where can we get the documentary and uh what do what do you want people to take away from both of your respective projects and your your work together so adam i guess we'll start with you the book and the movie an easy way I like to direct people to the

substack we have for saucers, spooks, and cooks. I think Chris put a link for the book there and for the film and we have a podcast too that Oh yeah, yeah. And as far as what to take away

from the film, I think you summed it up to people to be aware of UFO history and these recurring patterns. If you came into you know uphology in 2017, a lot

of the folks who did who really got became the UAP crowd didn't really know the history of the field, you know, and so I would that's something I think people need to be aware of.

Yeah. It's like we're living, it's like UFO is versus UAP before New York Times after New York Times. It really is like that. It's crazy. The podcast. Yeah, yeah. Chris,

tell us a little about the podcast and obviously what you hope we'll take away from the doc. You know, we went off in so many different places with filming. And so I probably have like 20 hours of footage that didn't make it into the film. And so we thought,

just make a podcast and we'll put that stuff out like that. And, um, you know, I think we've done three episodes so far working on another one. And it's been really fun to like kind of not have the little sound bites of people, but like really open them up and let them have their full interview. So it's been really cool that way. Um, but the website for the film is saucers, spooks and cooks.bh.bh.t.v.tv. And, yeah, just go check it out and just remember everything that you're seeing on the internet, just be cautious about because we're getting to that place where, you know, AI and all consensus, consensus realities. So, you know, fraying at the edges or come apart completely. So, yeah. Watch the film.

and take away from that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I cannot recommend it enough. We will have links in the show notes to everything, guys. So be sure to check out the collective work of saucers, spooks, and cooks. I always get a rosters, spooks and cooks, not saucers, coax, and spooks. I guess they could be interchangeable, right?

Yeah. I love it. I love it. But awesome. Adam, Chris, thank you so much for joining me today and someone else, guys. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Somewhere in the skies is part of the Somewhere Podcast universe.

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