Somewhere in the Skies - Somewhere in the Skies GREATEST HITS (Vol. 1)

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

In this first volume of GREATEST HITS, we dig into the archives of the Somewhere in the Skies podcast to bring you some of our most popular interviews with a wonderfully diverse list of guests, including: - The Navajo Paranormal Rangers (Stanley Milford and Jonathan Dover) - Henry Zebrowski - Co-host of Last Podcast on the Left - Christ Bartel - Former employee at Area 51 and Skinwalker Ranch - Mario Woods - Former USAF Sergeant and UFO witness - Zelia Edgar - UFO and paranormal researcher and author - Fred Andersson - Swedish UFO Researcher and author Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies PayPal: [e-mail] Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Store: http://tee.pub/lic/ULZAy7IY12U YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/somewhereskies/videos Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Produced by LIONSGATE Copyright © 2024. Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to every week. But if you would like to help support the show, we have a very active Patreon page where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com. Today on the Somewhere in the Skies podcast, United States Air Force veteran and former employee at both Area 51 and Skinwalker Ranch, Chris Bartel. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Chris, welcome for the very first time to Somewhere in the Skies.

I appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. My pleasure. Now, you know, a lot of us have been keeping up with everything going on at Skinwalker Ranch as of late. You know, we've got the television show. The new owner has come out in the past few years to tell us about what's been going on. And we even learned that a government program funded the ranch for an amount of time, which I know you're going to have some stuff to say about as we get into it. But let's tell our viewers and listeners, if you don't mind,

maybe a little about who you are and your connection to both Skinwalker Ranch. and also the Nevada testing site and Area 51. This is crazy when I heard that not only had you worked out at Groom Lake, but you also worked at this mysterious ranch in Utah. You're like a UFO podcast dream guest. So, yeah, man. Give us the origin story, if you don't mind. Right place, right time, I guess.

But no, I was born and raised in small town in Kansas. And basically when I got out of high school in 97, I joined the United States Air Force to be a security forces police officer. And that led me down to being stationed at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas in 1998 as a main base police officer there. And I worked there from 1998 to 2006 active duty. And during that time, I was also a cadre instructor for GCTS ground combat training squadron up in Creech Air Force Base. Nevada. And then in 2006 to 2009, I went to the IMA reserves for the Air Force. And then in 2006 is when I actually got hired with Department of Energy for the Nevada test site. And that kind of led me on the path. My reputation in the Air Force, it's, you know, Nellis Air Force base is a very unique base because obviously Nevada's got a lot of black world projects and stuff going on. So if you're working security or law enforcement out there, You kind of just kind of fall in line.

There's other options. You know, you can work Metro, Las Vegas or Northtown PD or, you know, there's tons of different jobs. But I went down the DOE site because I had a lot of friends there. And that's who kind of got you in the doors. You kind of get vouched in. Like the friends like, hey, you should apply. And so I started working there with the Nevada test site for several years.

And then my wife, who I met in the Air Force, she was also a police officer at Nellis. And she got orders to Malmstrom Air Force Base. And so this is back in 2009, late 2009. So we go to Malmstrom Air Force Base because she's from Montana originally. So we thought this was a good move. And then we get to Malmstrom Air Force Base. And I don't know if you've been out there in Great Falls, Montana, but it's almost as flat as Kansas.

Yeah, pretty bad. Yeah. Still some good folks out there. And we enjoyed our time out there. But she got pregnant with our first son. And the Air Force was kind of downsizing at that time. so they gave her the option to get out and she was like, hey, I don't want to be a military

mom always deployed and never see my kid and I'm like, hey, I get that because there's a cop in the Air Force. You're gone all the time. So I'm like, well, that means I could better roll the dice back to Vegas because that's where all my connections are at. You know, I had a job lined up with the federal air mark or for the federal

marshal service in Montana, but this is in 2009, 2010, there was a federal hiring freeze. So then I started making phone calls back to Las Vegas. and the first person I called was my old Air Force supervisor. And I said, do you have any leads? You know, naturally, I was trying to go back to the Nevada test site.

And he was like, well, no, everything was on a hiring freeze. But he said, you might want to call this other guy who was another ex-air force supervisor who worked for CSC, which had a contract for Air 51. So I call him up. And as I'm driving to Vegas, I get hired pretty much en route to Las Vegas with CSC for part-time work until a full-time job opened up because I still. had an active cue clearance. So that was a big positive.

So when I got to Las Vegas, I ended up making some more phone calls. And then I reached another old Air Force buddy of mine who had this gig in Utah or for Bass. And I applied and I got the job at the interview. And I was working both places at the same time. I was working for 51 part time. And then full time for Bass. I needed a full time job because I had a kid on the way. So that's kind of a long, roundabout way.

and then a full-time gig open with CSC for the Janet detail, and I worked out for a while, and I actually quit Bass. I quit Bass, went to CSC full-time to work the Janet detail, and then some pay issues came up, and I was forced to kind of go back to my previous job at Bass, that big oil space, and that's where I ended up, and I stayed there until I left in 2018. And then I came here to Kansas,

and I'm still currently a federal police officer out here. So that's kind of long, long. long drawn-out question, but that's my career in an itself. Well, it shows a dedication to something you're clearly very good at to be hired by places like this. Two questions to kind of piggyback off of that if you don't mind. Now, for any of our listeners, myself included, who aren't familiar with what a queue clearance is. Now, we know there are different levels of classification. What exactly is acute clearance?

What can you tell us, I guess, of what acute clearance is? And what was like a day-to-day working security out at Area 51 with Janet and everything? Well, the acute, first question, the Q clearance is kind of like just a DOE's version of a top secret clearance. It's got a little more weight to a normal TS clearance, I guess, because you go through a very, very extensive background check. And you go through a very extensive academy to be a police officer out there, security police officer out there. So the washout rate's pretty high So when you get a Q, it's like a golden ticket You can pretty much go anywhere

And a lot of people wants to get their Q They go right to the Pentagon It's a pretty easy transition Because it's a very, it's like $20,000 to get a Q clearance So if you have one, it's beneficial A higher people who already have the clearance Or can get one. So Q is just the version of the DOE's top secret

Basically The Jenna detail was basically you report down to the McCarron Airport and you work the site there with some other guys and do it normally what you do at a security airport like TSA and that's kind of all I can really say about that but yeah so the Nevada test site is a sister site to 51 they're right next to each other they're like right next to each other so 51's in a very strategic location because you have Nevada test site and then you have Creature Air Force Base totem paw test range now let's Air Force Base, you know, the natural

surrounding mountains, it's a perfect location to have a facility like that, you know, and it's all overlapping layers of security for basically one site. And the Nevada test site itself is the size of Rhode Island. That's how much area of responsibility you have out there. It's huge.

A lot of stuff out there. So with the test site, the Nevada test site, you sign lots of NDAs going in and leaving that job. So there's not much really I can say about working for the Department of Energy and working out there than NTS, but I really enjoyed my time out there. I have a lot of friends out there and had a lot of great experiences and was a part of a lot of

special access programs out there and a lot of projects. And it was a really eye-opener experience, you know, and, you know, you think you'd do a lot of stuff for the DoD for the military and then you'd go into other organizations like DOE, and it's like a whole different ballgame, basically. Right, yeah. I mean, the DOE is kind of that, um, that, that, that, that, that, carrot that's always dangling in front of the UFO people because we're like

they're the only ones that don't answer for like what they're doing. And it's understood to an extent. We understand. But yeah, please. Oh, I think what, Pete, and I get a little flag for this, but this is the reality of the situation here. It's like,

you know, we want disclosure. And I'm for disclosure as well. But when you have a certain faction of people asking like, for the government to release all the data or maybe exposed technology that we have and maybe it is alien. I don't know. I can't confirm that. But what you're really doing is you're jeopardizing national security to a point

because the overall objective for the United States Air Force and for the military industrial complex is air power global dominance. That's the overall objective. And that's how the United States keeps control and keeps ahead of our enemies because it boils down to war. you know, this stuff boils down to war. And with that loss of lives and everything else that comes with war, all the ugly stuff. So the United States wants to be on the top edge of the war fighting platform, basically.

And so some of these locations like 51 or a test site, you know, obviously this technology, new technology is tested there so we can keep that edge. So I'm all about having disclosure. But also, I think it's funny that people are still waiting for the government. to give disclosure when it's the government that's been hiding disclosure for the last 70 years. So who do we trust here? This hand or this hand? It's just like if you're waiting for the government to release stuff, good luck. And then if they do release it, is it going to be true data? Or is there going to be just a whitewash narrative to drown out the truth?

So if you're like, you know, somewhere in the skies, the name, if you want to look for truth, just go outside and observe the skies yourself and collect your own data. You know, yeah, collect your own data and then don't wait for the government to tell you something. I mean, yeah, I get to a point where people are like, you know, I pay taxpayer money

and I want to learn about this and I totally understand that. But there's a different game being played here that people don't really fully understand. You need to take a step back and be like, okay, who are the people that are talking most about UAPs being threats and stuff? Have any

of them served? Have any of them hold the top secret clearance or work for a three-letter agency, I don't really see many of them that do. So, it's kind of like, at the end of the day, where do you want to get your information from? It's better to go online and start making

connections with people like view and other investigators and putting the pieces together independently versus waiting for the government to hand out a silver platter. I'm not holding my breath. I really am not.

I'm kind of, you're kind of jaded a little bit, because of where I used to work at. So when it comes to the whole UAP topic, I'm a little bit jaded, and it's just how it is. I can't control what's up in the skies as an investigator, but I can control what's on the feet, on the ground, and that's what I focused on at Skinwalker Ranch. When I got out there was the focus on what I can,

what do I have direct access and control of? I can't control what's in the skies. I can observe it, but do I really know what's out there? Do I have the proper equipment or backing or experts around to say yes or no? It's just you have to really control what you can get your hands on. Yeah, right. And you're definitely transitioning into what I think the bulk of this conversation is going to be. And that is Skin Walker Ranch.

I know a lot of our viewers and listeners are really excited to hear you talk about your experiences there, which we'll get to. We'll get there, guys. But before we move on from that, Chris, I love, you know, with that, I guess, non-transparency or classification in national security that comes with things like Nevada Tessian site and Area 51, when there's no transparency,

that's when people start making things up. That's when people start creating rumors. And a mythology is born out of these places that you've worked at. So, I mean, what did you know about Area 51 when you finally made it over there? Did you know about all this stuff Bob Lazar, was talking about. about and the UFOs.

Yeah, what can you tell us? That is hilarious that you bring it up because I was going through my stuff today. I'm trying to set my office up here in my new office where I could display my photography. And I was going through some old books. And I actually found this book that I bought back

in 97, which was the Air 51 book. This was before I joined the Air Force. I read this book. And I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And then I joined the Air Force. And then I ended up working at these locations and I was like wow talk about like projecting your future

it was very strange I'm honestly curious I love the UFO stuff I like the paranormal research I like all that stuff I've always been into it so this is something I never shared before when I first got to know us Air Force Base

my first supervisor actually worked at 51. And this is back in 98. Now I'll never forget, he had a Nokia cell phone, the old school flip phones one. And I'd be on, I'd be on patrol with him. And he would get a call on that cell phone,

and he would be gone for weeks. And then he would call me up and say, hey, pick me up at McCarron Airport. I'd go pick him up. And I would say, hey, you know, what, what happened? What were he at? He wouldn't say nothing. So, I won't say his name, but long story short, we, hey, he

He got orders to Korea Air Force Base. And this is back in 98, 99. So we had this big going away party forum at the Deuce 5, which is across from Ellis Air Force Base. It's like a local military hangout. And we get him pretty liquored up or whatever. And there's a bunch of us young airmen that are around him, you know. And we all kind of knew he worked at 51.

And finally, I asked him, I said, you know, can you tell us anything about your time out there? and he paused for a second and he said the things I've seen out there we won't lose an air-to-air war in a thousand years and that's all he said and I was just like what and then that was it

and I was just like wow but he was like dead set when he said that and this is in 98 remind you he was dead serious when he said that so it makes you wonder kind of like okay if there is technology that out there. Let's say the TITAC is some of that technology or whatever.

You're looking at a situation where we might have technology that could replace the entire military fleet of aircraft. We're talking trillions of dollars of money that would be just gone. It'd be outdated aircraft replaced by some type of superior technology. Not saying a TITAC is that, but it makes me wonder, like, what if that is our technology? But I also like to play on the fact that with the oceans, you know, what do we know about our own oceans here? You know, what if this technology comes deep from a different species within our earth's crust or whatever? And it's evolved into this hybrid human oil where it has to come surface to refuel.

I don't know. But it makes me wonder our own oceans would be a good starting point to look at as well, you know. I don't know. I've always kind of been curious myself about what's really down on those ocean in the deep ocean. in the deep ocean, you know. What's our own birth, the secrets of our own Earth, you know? Yep, yeah.

I tend to always keep that in mind that, you know, we're so trained on the skies and it could be out in the outer reaches of space when we know so little about our very own planet. And I think you're right. There has to be some sort of reason logistically and mathematically, statistically, I guess,

so many UFO sightings occur over bodies of water. Or are, at least reported that way, even in the military. And then you have places like, I remember researching a place called Atec, like this underground, or excuse me, underwater military installation that have like a restricted airspace that reach, like the outer atmosphere, which is crazy to think. Like, what could they be doing from underwater to the outer reaches of space? What's being tested there, flown there?

It blows my mind, man. It really does. But I knew a little bit about Bob Lazard. Obviously, I saw when I was working at Nellis, listen to the normal news. I would see George Napp's broadcast sometimes when he'd recap Bob Lazzar story. I was very intrigued. This is all before working at these locations, you know?

My kind of plan when I was in the Air Force was to either stay in for 20 or get out and move back to Kansas or something. But I ended up staying in Las Vegas for 20 years and working some of these sites that led me down this rapid. rabbit hole basically. And, but yeah, I was intrigued by

his story as well, and it made me, and actually working there are some things that Bob says makes total sense. I don't deny one bit that he's probably worth there, you know, but what projects and where only he would know that. That's how that area works. It's overlapping layers of secrecy where me and you can work in the same

location for 20 years, but we would need none of us would know what we're working on. It's just, that's how it's set up to keep the secrecy, you know. Um, so yeah, there's definitely some truth to his stories. I would definitely believe, you know, I guess when it boils down, because I always get people online to ask me questions, you know, what do you think of this person? What do you think of that person?

And unless I meet them in person, I really don't know what to say because it's like, if you want to judge somebody's credibility, judge the person's character. If their character is flawed and you're working in these type of career, uh, these areas, there might be some questions that would arise. Like, are they being truthful? You know, what's the real objective here? What's the narrative they're trying to push? I mean, Bob's story has been pretty much

the same the whole time. So, I would like to do a face-to-face with them maybe one day and just talk and... That'd be cool, yeah. Yeah, it'd be kind of cool, you know, but I mean, I don't know. It definitely has... Hey, we'll tell. Yeah. Well, I mean,

kind of, I guess, playing off of that, you know, people, people, a lot of questions online when people saw that you were coming on the show, they wanted to know what you thought about Boblazar. They wanted to know what you think of Robert Bigelow and this, that, this, that. And we're slowly inching towards Skinwalker Ranch, guys, I promise. We're getting there. We're getting there. So, I guess something you told me offline, which I found really interesting is you actually learned about Skinwalker, the phenomenon and possibly the ranch. Correct me if I'm wrong. While you were still employed at Area 51, before you even got over there, is that true? That you learned about it there? Can you tell us a little about that story?

I never knew a Skimwalker ranch was at all, but I learned about skinwalkers at the Nevada test site. That's where I learned about skin walkers. Kind of like when you go through the academy there and you start working in these areas, you have some downtime. So you start asking some of the older guards. you know, stories. Hey, have you seen things out here in the sky? Have you, have you seen this? Have you seen that? For the most part, people are pretty quiet about it, you know? But there was a couple guys who are like, no, we have seen some pretty stuff and we have documented it. I'm like, what? And one of the guys said that they documented like a deer standing up on two legs and walking around. And the term that he said was, oh yeah, I was a skin walker. I'm like, what? And so that kind of led me down. Why would,

there be skin walkers out here. And then he was like, well, it's because there's a lot of native history out here. I'm like, where? And so sure enough, he showed me on a Sunday, we drove out there, there's an area with petroglyphs that go back 10,000 years ago. Oh, wow. And so it kind of puts, like, puts you back, like, what was going on out here 10,000 years ago? I know in the 1800s, the Pai and the Western Shoshonea were documented in the Nevada test site

before it was taken over, but 10,000-year-old petroglyphs out there, so it makes you wonder, you know, what was going on out there? So obviously something, because they had some weird things happening. So I find it interesting that a lot of these places, like Skinwalker test site,

a lot of other places have a lot of Native American history aligned with it. Right. And that's a big part of what I want to ask you about your time at the ranch when we get there. So let's say, set it up. You know, like you said, you kind of flip, flop back and forth from Skinwalker, back to Nellis, that Skinwalker. How did you find out about the job with Bigelow? Did he reach out to you? Did you reach out to him? How did that all go down? And what did you think

when you first learned about what you'd be doing there? Well, it was, I just called the old buddy of mine who I knew in the Air Force, and I said, hey, I heard you got some project going on for an aerospace company. And he said, well yeah kind of and and then we started talking and then we met face to face we met face to face actually where he broke ground at the new VA medical center in Las Vegas we met in a we met in an old parking lot out there and on the dirt it was like I have a movie or whatever like you know and we're talking about this and it kind of gave me the skinny of what the job entailed but he didn't go too much in depth because I still had to do an interview with column and and other people

And so that's, I applied, and he kind of vouched for me, and then I had a meeting with Colm, and Colm asked me, you know, typical security questions. And then he asked me if I was open to the paranormal. And at first, I was like, what do I say? Because tell me, I want to answer truthfully, because I'm into the paranormal. Right. And I think he asked me, you know, have I had any experiences? And I said, yeah, actually, I've had. and coming from the Nevada test site,

we have acute clearance. You don't talk about seeing UFOs or ghosts or anything like that because they can pull your clearance because you're dealing with nuclear security. So they take that very seriously. You have to walk a line there. I can't even want to, I can't even explain it to you, but it's very stressful.

But so I say, you know, I'm going to ask honestly, and I said, yeah, I'm very open to that. And I shared through some of my experiences in Kansas and even a couple of my experiences in Nellis Air Force Base there's a hangar called 858 Propulsion Building and it had some ghost paranormal stuff happening there

and sure enough, we went there with some other airmen, this was back in 2004 or five maybe anyways and we had the experience there and it was like 10 witnesses that all saw it. It was crazy but so I was very open to the interview and I told him yeah, I'm open

and he kind of nodded his head and I left and then my buddy came out and says, hey, you got the job. And I'm like, okay, cool, when do I start? And that was it. So I started at first, you know, in Vegas and then back at the ranch, it was two people out there at the time. So you'd have two officers out there. So one guy would drive up to relieve the other guy, another guy would go back.

So every week, it was somebody different, basically. Okay. So in October of 2010 was when I first drove up there from Vegas to the ranch. and was boots on the ground. And the buddy who hired me was kind of the guy who kind of trained me up a little bit. And we didn't really have an SOP or standard operating procedure of what to do.

It was kind of like, okay, our job is to protect the property. I get that, secure the site. I get it. I've also collect data, report anything unusual. I'm like, okay, what do you mean? unusual, you know?

And this is back in 2010. I didn't read the hunt for the Skinwalker book until a couple months after I've been working there because I didn't want to have any pre-notion in my mind of something that I could possibly experience. Smart, yeah. So I remember when I applied for the job

and I found out that I was going to this ranch in Utah, I tried to look online for something. I couldn't find anything really about Skinwalker Ranch because back in 2010, there was only, there was like one website and like one or two, maybe YouTube videos, that was it. Yeah. And so I'm like, well, what the hell?

I'll never forget this. My dad, who's kind of fault, he followed my whole career in the Air Force and the test site and then 51 and then, you know, finally at Skinwalker. I sent him a copy of the hunt for the Skinwalker book. And I remember him calling me up one day and he goes, and this is the only time I hear concerned in his voice. He goes, son, what the hell did you get yourself into? And I was like, well, dad, I don't know. I just want to go down the rabbit hole and see how far it goes down. And he was like, just be careful.

and I just remember the sound in his voice, he seemed like he was nervous. I'm like, I've deported recines, you know, and this is the time he sounds nervous, you know? Right. For everything you've gone through, then that's when he's nervous, yeah. Yeah, so then, and then that's what kind of when started my time

at Skinwalker was in October of 2010, and yeah, that's where it all started. Okay, so, well, let's talk about that time at the ranch then. Are there, what were some of the, the most compelling things you came across there? Obviously, people want to hear the stories of what occurs on this ranch. What is someone like you who spent weeks on end there? I'm sure there's days where absolutely nothing happens. You're bored out of your mind doing your rounds and everything.

But I know you've had some pretty crazy stuff happen there too. So yeah, anything you want to share with us, Chris? Sure. You know, I've been kind of. hesitant about some of my experiences, because I don't like to say things unless I can back them up with either a second witness or photographic evidence or some type of physical evidence. So I would say personally, the experience that stands up the most is the large wolf or canine experience I had in October. It was actually my second week in October out there on

the property where myself and another officer, we had this routine down where, One guy would go out for a morning run around the property and kind of get an eyes on of the environment, kind of get a judge of how the day is going to go, where we're going to go check out. And the other guy would do the report from the night before and get that sent up. And then, you know, around 11 noon, we'd pack up our gear and hike out and go explore and look for stuff and do EVP sessions at some of the homesteads and take pictures. And that's what kind of got my photography going was at the time there were some questions. questionable pictures being taken at Homestead 2 That for me was backstead back that's called backscatter which is flat photography and a dust environment

And I was like that's not orbs those are dust particles and I kind of just I kind of debunked with my own camera Because of the time I had a more more high-depth camera and then I kind of carried my camera My own personal camera is a secondary way is to document the phenomena as best I could And anyways so back to the wolf story on this particular day The other officer came back from the run and he was like hey I found some weird prints some large canine prints on top of the

mesa and I'm like okay let's go check it out and I'm from Kansas and grew up on a farm where we had horses and all you know all kinds of animals you can think of we lived out in the middle nowhere and so we go out there and we see these large it looks like it looks like a wolf print

big size wolf print but what made it weird is there was like a section where it looked like this animal was walking on two feet they had like this three foot stride and it it would go to four feet, two feet it was weird. It didn't make any sense. And at the time

we had two black labs and a border collie dog. We have three dogs with us. And the labs prints, and these are full grown labs. The labs prints in some of the pictures I posted before, these wolf prints dwarfed

the lab prints. And you can see the three foot strike. I threw a ruler down to kind of measure it. So we kind of call our supervisor, call him and say, hey, we got a possible weird animal out here or something. His advice is, you know, be careful, but document best you can. I'm like, okay, Roger that. So me and my colleague, we're like, you know, we have this stupid mindset, like we're going to go capture this animal, not knowing what we're really dealing with. You know, this is in 2010.

So that night we'd go out, I think it was the next night, we'd go out. and we have all of our gear with us, you know, and we're out until like 3 o'clock in the morning. We're sitting up little makeshift campfires everywhere trying to draw this animal in, and we felt like the whole night something was watching us, and the dogs were acting very suspicious. They were, like, cleaning to us,

and normally the dogs are out running around trying to catch rabbits and stuff, but this night they were very on edge, so we knew something was up. So anyways, it starts raining a little bit, and we start, we're like, we've been out all night, let's call it a night. It's like 3.30, 3 o'clock in the morning

maybe, I can't remember exactly, but I remember it was a full moon night, and we start walking back to Homestead 1, but we start backtracking our original tracks for that night to see if we missed anything. And we find behind our prints, wolf prints,

this thing had been following us the whole night, and the dogs never picked up on it, and we never saw it. So it was just far enough away to keep a visual on us, but not close enough for us to see it. So now we're like, holy

shit, we need to get back to the homestead because this thing's tracking us now. So we're walking on the main dirt road that you see on the TV show and we're going around the curve. Actually, this all happened at the triangle area. So we're going around the triangle area of the ranch

and I'm about 50, 60 feet ahead of my partner and I'll never forget this because it's replaced. in my brain every single night. The moon is full and there's clouds and my partner says, stop, I hear something. And his, he's like, his back is facing the ditch there and I'm ahead of them. And I turn around to say what?

And as I'm turning around, it feels like time is compressing, like everything slows down. And the clouds go over the moon and everything got really dark. and I felt like the whole frequency and vibration of the environment just dropped like you're walking in water. And out of the ditch, we both hear this guttural growl come out of the ditch. And something large is like a size of a donkey or a deer, black wolf, jumps out, lands on the dirt road, takes off west. The dogs go after the animal. We go after the dogs because we're worried about the dogs fighting this big animal.

And we're right behind the animal and it's like, we blink and it's gone and like disappeared in the darkness. And we're like, what the hell was that? And the dog stopped dead in the tracks and looked at us like, what the hell was that? And so we took some pictures and then we got the hell out of there and got back to Homestead 1 and did the report. And I think an initial report, I probably didn't even see the animal because I was so freaked out about losing my clearance, my cue clearance. that in the initial report, I said I didn't see it. Because I had planned to go back to Nevada test out eventually. It's because all my friends were there and paid better and there was better benefits and stuff.

But I was like, I'm not going to say, put this on the report because my brain cannot process what I had just experienced. Oh, man. It really took me back. But here's the crazy part. Not that that wasn't crazy enough. But fast forward to 2015, I'm out there by myself now. Because in 2011, we went to one person on the property. Can you imagine securing a ranch?

And at the time, we had almost 1,000 acres. Yeah, because we leased the land around us. We leased the land on top of the maces. So we had more acreage to cover. But imagine you're supposed to secure the property by yourself at night. It's a total no-go. You don't do that. But we did.

But in 2015, I'm sitting in a lawn chair at the Eastgate with the dogs. at the time we have three labs now because Bella had passed away and it was a nice quiet night I think it was in the fall again and I was kind of on my phone a little bit looking at the road not paying attention because by 2015 the ranch was like

a second home to me I felt normal out there everything was just you know I knew where stuff happened but you kind of I kind of compare it to being deployed overseas for the first time in a combat zone like you know you're on edge your everything is a big experience everything's like tunnel vision by month nine month 10 year one you're ready to get the hell out of

there and go home by year five just like whatever it's the ranch i don't care it's just whatever so you're kind of getting numb to the environment and sometimes that's good sometimes that's bad you get kind of complacent which is not good but also you're you're i feel like your vibration uh kind of tunes in with the environment if that makes sense anyway so i'm sitting on this lawn chair and my back's against the it's called the eastern valley and out of this bushes of sage I hear that same

howl growl that I heard in 2010 or yeah 2010 I come off the chair gun out spinning because I thought this thing was going to attack and I can see the shrubs move and the dogs go after it and almost

come right back like confused so I go out with you know flashlight I don't see anything but something was there like letting me know, hey, I'm still here. I was like, oh, great. Now I got to walk back to the trailer, which is like a quarter mile away. And on this dirt road, there's tons of blind spots on this dirt road. I'm going to get flinted by something, and I'm not making it back.

So the whole, I remember walking back that night, like, just gun out like, oh, this is it. I'm going to die. I'm going to die today. You're going to die on Skinwalker Ranch. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, give me a break, you know. So, and then other things.

that's happened out there. You know, UFO related, not too much stuff that I would say I can consider a UAP or UFO. But again, remind you, I didn't spend that much time staring, like, looking for that. I focused more on the ground because I

treat the ranch like a giant crime scene. I wanted to collect real hard data evidence that I can link with the phenomenon maybe. But anyway, I had a spot out there on the ranch. I called Meditation Rock, and I would go out there the dogs at night sometimes, especially the last couple of years I lived out there, I would go out on the rock and sleep on the rocks at night with the dogs and watch the stars

because I really felt like the more time I physically invested in the property, the more things would open up. I feel that that is key to understanding the ranch. You have to really put your sweat equity and get your boots dirty, and you have to really invest your energy into that environment to understand that property. And when you do that, I think things opened up. At least it did for me. And I was go out and this rock and watch the stars and with the dogs.

It was a great time because, you know, looking back now, you know, there's TV shows, documentaries, everything's Skinwalker. It's on Netflix now. Back then, back then the ranch was, in my brain, was never going to be a mainstream topic. It was just the place that I worked at, like another site that I secured before, you know, the DOE and the test site. and my time is another job assignment, but it was a place I actually fell in love with. You know, I love being out there. I hated being away from my family,

but I really enjoyed my time out there, and I made my time useful. So I would do my photography to help pass the time and explore and look for things. And I kind of felt pretty connected to the place. That's great, man. And I love this idea of, you know, investing in the environment,

and the environment will invest, into you. Like, it is such a give and take. And a big part of your time there was documenting certain things, a lot of the Native American history, which gets overlooked a lot when it comes to Skinwalker Ranch. Let's be honest. It's kind of based around this Native American curse or folklore of the area. And that's all we really hear about it. And then we now move on to the UFO aspect or the, you know, the portals and the wolves and this and that, which is like, of course, amazing and literally phenomenal. We don't know what it is.

But there's this whole other aspect to all of this that gets overlooked. And I think people like you, like James Keenan, like Carl, Carl, vibe, you guys are documenting very important things that are getting overlooked by the mainstream when it comes to all this. So I love to ask you, what did someone like Bigelow think about your kind of approach to the ranch? I mean, he's hiring people there to investigate and try to figure out what's going on with all the paranormal stuff. But then you've got this ancient history there as well. Did that ever come into it when you were hired or with Colm? And what did they think of your whole approach to investigating the ranch?

It's kind of interesting because there was a serious like of communication during my time out there on the property. So I'm not sure what Bigelow really thought. I know that I know one of the reasons why I quit the first time was because I was documenting Native American artifacts around the whole entire property. and it was being overlooked and I actually received an email from somebody wasn't calling there was somebody underneath them who said stop reporting artifacts is not important and I was like it's 100% important

because it's history and for the first time ever it's physical evidence and through this evidence we can find what was going on because in all Native American not all but in the majority of the tribes especially Utah talk about the star people in their culture so we're not going to explore this aspect of what tribes were out here. It wasn't just the Utes. It goes back to the Fremont and then even beyond that.

Because let me show you how important this is. In one area, like on the TV show, the finale where it shows the pillars and the picture in the last episode, that area, the Eastern Valley is where I spent 90% of my time because I felt naturally drawn there, but there was also an abundance of artifacts out there in history. And I document it. So my thought process was this. I had a topographical map of the property. And every time I'd find an artifact, I would take a picture and GPS it. And then some artifacts I'd bring back to Homestead 1 to do further analysis and online research as best I could.

Some of the artifacts actually took down to rural Utah and had professionals look at to get dates. And I would document all this stuff because I felt like if I could connect people's experiences to maybe an abundance of artifacts, there was a solid connection there for the first time ever. It wasn't just like, oh, it's this or it's that. There was no direction when I first got hired to what to look for. There really wasn't. It was like anything out of the ordinary report it. I'm like, okay, be more specific.

There was no like, hey, focus on this or focus on that. So when I got told to stop reporting it, I was like, what's the deal here? So that kind of upset me a lot because I invested so much of my, time doing that and I thought that was extremely important and I still do to this day. So much so that I've gone back to the basin on my own

and documented other locations around the entire basin that have the same type of connective phenomenon which is reporting skinwalkers and UFOs but there's also a Native American native American base there you know. But in the area in Eastern Valley the artifacts

are this important. In one location I found artifacts that go back 15 hundred years ago, the arcade arcade period. In the same location, I found paleo artifacts that go back 10,000 years ago. So you have overlapping layers of history

in one location. You know, what was going on out there during that time, much like the Nevada test site where they saw Skinwalkers and there's petroglyphlets that go back 10,000 years ago. And Skinwalker Ranch, same thing. McConkey Ranch, same thing. Blindfrog Ranch

has stuff out there. McKee Springs at 9 Mile Canyon. There's, it's undeniable. You cannot ignore that anymore. There's, there's history there, and it's worth exploring it. And I'm not the only guy doing it.

There's, there's been people before me who brought up the same type of stuff that I'm talking about now. I just so happened to photograph and document it. And, you know, I've leaked up with James Keenan and Carl Vibe,

and they've helped me as well. You know, James Keenan's got an insane amount of knowledge about this stuff, especially about Petroclips. And Carl's got a great eye, and he's also very, into it. He's very knowledgeable about this stuff. So

linking up with the right guys, you know, the term iron sharpens iron, you want to surround yourself with some of the best guys. I'm surrounded with some of the best guys, I believe, that are not just looking for a payout, they're looking for truth. And that's important when it comes down to it, because I think there's something worth exploring more, and that's what I'm continuing to do on my own. Is that?

But yeah, I know Colum was more open to it. I think we had a conversation. where he was like, just keep doing it, but don't do it on the daily journal. So that's when I took it upon myself to keep my own personal journal and documenting everything myself. And that's what I did for five, six, the whole time I was out there. I have my own personal journal of documentation of stuff, not just artifacts, but also areas of interest that are highly important into understanding

what's going on out there. And when like the whole UAP stuff that's out now, seems like that's such a mainstream topic. It almost seems like that's, that's the new narrative now that has to be crammed on everybody's throat. Everything's UAP. Everything's UAP, UFO, UFOs are threats, UAPs are threats. I just, I don't buy it.

I don't buy it, man. I don't buy it because of where I used to work out, but also I'm having an open of mind here. If we're talking about real aliens, is that what we're talking about? Okay, so we're talking about a culture of beings that are so advanced, they're going to come here and do what wipe us out or we're going to be able to stop that? I don't think so.

I don't think that we're going to be able to. But why would you wipe us out? They're probably coming here using us as a resource, much like we use cattle as resource. So they probably view us. There's nothing but cattle. And they use this as a resource. So they're not going to hurt their resource. They may stop us from hurting ourselves because I've said before, the only threat to humanity is humanity itself.

We are such a distraint of species. were bound for extinction and we don't care. We're just like, whatever. Doesn't matter because we have so many distractions now. And that's why the Native American stuff is so important. These people didn't have distractions. So if they're taking the time to make petroclips about portals or whatever, giants or whatever else in their area,

they're doing that for a reason. They're not just bored, okay? We're talking 8,000, 10,000 years ago. People are foraging and hunting every day to live. They're not going to get bored and say, I'm going to go scribble on these rocks because I'm bored. No, they're trying to relay information. And so it's just ignored because we're taught in our culture,

in American culture, to like not focus on that. When in reality, full circle, we need to be focusing back in the native tribes and their cultures and their teachings because they had it right. You know, we want all these scientific explanations and data and evidence. And I get that. I'm totally for that. But maybe it's more important if we just sit back on a mesao, or on a rock or by a river and just absorb the moment and learn.

That's the key is absorbing the time. If it cares about documenting the evidence, I get to a point, but it's more important to focus on the moment. Because I've said before, the ranch is bigger than a TV show. It's bigger than my photography. It's bigger than a contract with the government.

It is real Native American indigenous culture history. And it needs to be respected and learn. And the only way to learn is just, sitting there and absorbing it. You have to be there to absorb it. You have to go out to these places, these petroglyph and see them for yourself and think to yourself, what was going on out here? You know?

Because in today's society, we're so distracted with iPads and TV shows. They didn't have anything like that. The stars were their iPad. The Earth was their I, their Netflix. And that's what they watched. And they learned from that. I mean, let's be real here. It's just like, it feels like I've been taking crazy pills to me.

2011 because in 2011 is when I found my first artifact in the eastern valley and that flipped my whole perception of everything. I was like, whoa, there's something that was going on out here. And then I felt like this may sound crazy, but it's the honest to God truth. The whole time I was out there, I felt like I was being guided by something bigger. Something was guiding me to find this stuff because it wasn't just one artifact. No, it was other areas of interest. Some of those areas which I showed on the TV show, a cave. that was on the show.

That's one of many areas I know out there personally that are very important to the overall aspect and view of the ranch. And I think it's great that Utah's getting that, you know, attention because it's drawing more people out to the basin so they can experience themselves and make their own assumptions because it's very easy for us to be very judgmental at home

and, you know, armchair quarterback stuff and you never go out there and experience it. And you don't have to even go to Utah. There's places probably in your local areas with native history that you can go out and just learn about it. You might learn something. And really for me, the ranch was about spiritual evolution. That's how it boiled down to me. It was just about evolving as a human being. And that's what I kind of did. And I kind of showed up through my photography. Like the ranch, its view is a real scary, like you always hear the spookiest place in the world, the most paranormal hotspot. And it is. It is. the ranch can be as dark as you want or as light as you want. It's based on the individual what you're going to focus your attention on. And I focused on the dark a little bit and then I focused on the light. But my primary focus was the light. And the capture and the beauty of the ranch of the property, that was my focus.

And I kind of felt like that opened up the ranch more because I was so focused on subject matters of like artifacts, rock formations, the vegetation, animals. and so it kind of that kind of helped me understand the ranch more I used to do this thing to put my mind in the kind of in the focus like laser focus

I would imagine that I had just landed on a different planet and I was an alien or an alien explorer and it was my job to find proof of life so I would land in Utah and it was my job to go out and find artifacts to find evidence to later go back to report

and that kind of helped me focus on the minor details of being out there. And I still kind of use that technique today. I go out and I say, okay, I'm a alien. I just landed. And it's my job to find a group of life. It sounds crazy, but it's just, I don't know, maybe I was at the ranch for too long.

Had too much time on my hands. No, see. Exactly, man. And that's what we want. We want you to be real with us because, you know, we get this kind of filtered perception of the ranch through the books, through the TV shows. And, you know, I respect the work being done there.

There's no denying, like I think people like branded Fugel and even Bigelow to an extent, like they wanted answers. They have a burning curiosity. They've had experiences. They want to know. And they have the resources to do that. That's amazing. But I- People that are asking.

Yeah, please. The people that are asking those questions like Bigelow, Fugel, not so much. Fugle goes out there, but people that ask those questions, they need to go physically to those locations and put that time in. Right. They can't just do a third party. and expect to get the truth. Because what if those people who are giving you that information are not honorable people, they're just honest, and they're feeding you a bunch of crap.

You have to be, I know if I'm passionate about something, I'm going to go directly to the source and figure it out. Or try to figure it out. And that's what kind of Carl did recently. You know, Carl had this whole Magic Mesa thing. And he could have doubled down and said it's all paranormal or UFOs, but he didn't. He went out there and debunked his own thing.

And that's saying something. And I think when it comes to some of these locations, there's been people who have lied. I know there has been personally, who lied to impress people or to get the favors of somebody or whatever the reason why. And it's not uncommon to think that it happens every single day in society where employees do their best to impress their boss.

It happens everywhere. And every single job in America and across the world. So how is it going to be indifferent at these locations? You want to impress your boss. You want to produce. But what are you going to produce? Bullshit or truth? I focused on the truth, man.

That's it. I love it. Well, okay. Truth is the perfect way to kind of tackle. What I think is going to be the most controversial part of this conversation, Chris. And I have to ask because I know a lot of people, they're frustrated with the lack of transparency that came from the Bigelow era of the ranch. You know, a lot of people, they're not excuse, their explanation,

for why they're frustrated is because taxpayer money did end up going to studying Skinwalker Ranch through a Pentagon funded program. So I have to ask you, as someone who worked on the ranch, were you ever aware that the U.S. government actually was funding some of the research going on at the ranch? And what do you make of the whole government ties to Skinwalker Ranch? that's a good question because I didn't really I knew I've like nobody sat me down and said okay here's the game plan here's what's going on and that's like a communication and that's why those programs fail lack of communication and there's some people that say all sap was a success and in some some areas it was a success but also it was a complete failure because from the start there was a lack of communication there was no set objective at all during my time. So it really kind of boils down to the start.

If you're going to talk about ASAP, and this all started from Jane Lakowski, who was a DIA agent, who reached out to Robert Bigelow back in 2007, right, and says, hey, I want to come check out your ranch, and Bigelow is like, okay. So right there, that's kind of a, to me, it seems like a red flag,

because any time the government gets involved with the private sector, who's that really the benefit? The private sector or the government? So anyway, so La Coussi goes down the property and then less than two hours has an experience, you know, so incredible that he goes back to the Pentagon and gets funding for ASAP with zero evidence. That's another red flag. What? How are you going to get money with zero evidence just based on somebody's experience?

Nobody's questioning that. Are you serious? So that's not the part that strikes me as odd because I never knew about the casket at all the whole time I worked there. but if you have a guy who had an experience and he's just sitting in Washington not out there on the ranch and he obviously had he's tapped on the universe's door

where he was able to get funding for this experiment but he's not out there boots on the ground with me and other guys out there what's the point it's set up for failure from the start because your your most important asset resource who had the connection is gone

there's nowhere to be found So now it's left to a bunch of prior military veterans to go out there and do what, figure what out. It seems like the whole program was a fail to the beginning because of the lack of communication. We still were able to collect data and have some experiences. But it makes you wonder, you know, what else was going on out there that we didn't know about? It seems like certain people during my timeline avoided the ranch like the plague. And it's just like, what do you want us to do out here? There's limited direction.

So that's like the military mindset is like work more with less. And so that's what we do. You work more with less. You still have a job to do. But to me, you know, after learning about all set, because I didn't know about all stuff until 2019, but I learned about Lakatski and stuff. I didn't know that he even came out there and had an experience.

And wasn't until later with a new book and stuff that I found out. But I thought to myself, what a waste of opportunity because it had been great for him to come out there because he's had, he hasn't a connection out there. And that's how the ranch works. I felt the ranch has a connected, connectivity to people or whatever. So why wouldn't you want to come back out? It doesn't make any sense to me, you know?

It feels like a missed opportunity, you know. And I don't know. If the reason why he didn't come out was because he had a bad experience. And I guess according to the book, there was five other guys who came out there. And they all had horrible experience. and their families were affected. So if that new book that came out was created to set the record straight

and everything in that book is factual or real, and you're saying that these people had all these horrible experiences, why the hell are we out there on the ranch by ourselves and definitely running and gunning? That's okay? That's not okay. You can't put people out there

and not tell them what's going on. I mean, am I wrong here? It seems like, imagine putting yourself on my situation. Put yourself on my situation for a second. And your job is to secure the property, collect data, and you're doing it as best as you can. And you do it for years and years and years. And then to come to find out,

there was another program going on also, and there was people that had horrible experiences that affected their families. And I had things happen to my family, horrible things, that directly from the ranch and I knew other colleagues of mine had that thing so my family's expendable

my health is expendable it's unacceptable and it's a point that everybody just kind of glazes over and it's a point that needs to be at some point there needs to be some accountability or at least somebody needs to call me up and have a conversation

because that's the right thing to do because I feel like we're just abandoned out there with no real direction I'm so happy you brought this up because the one of the most, I would say, touchy subjects when it comes to all of this is this idea. I'm just going to come out and say it. Some people think that people like you or even the current people on the ranch are being, I hate using this word, but we're being used as like guinea pigs is the term people have said. You have people like Travis Taylor who got radiation poisoning. You had members of, you know, during your time, other people who had ailments or brought home these hitchhiker effects, as they've sort of coined it.

But, you know, that's the paranormal side. Then we have the actual clinical physiological ailments that have occurred on this ranch. So I guess I'll just flat out asking, what are your opinions on those who do claim? that you guys were being used as some sort of experiment. Yeah, it's, man, I'll tell you, it puts me in a dark place. It really does. Because I don't want to think that, but it's hard, it's hard not to think that. When you look back at the timeline and there was lack of communication, like I said,

you know, lack of equipment, that's no problem. You know, that's just how it was. Not having one working camera out there, that's suspect. your job for security you're supposed to have some type of thing. But there's all these questions me and my guys who worked out there. We all kind of joked around about that. We're just lab rats out here. We joked around about that, but we never thought it was real.

But I will say in 2019, I met a scientist in the Uylanta Basin, and the first three things he said to me. And this is in early 2019. He said to me, we had a private conversation. Actually, it wasn't private. there was other witnesses there. But the first thing he said to me was, did I know about radiation out here on the property in Utah in the basin?

And I'm like, what? No. And then he said, did you know about $22 million? And I was like, no. And then the last thing he said to me, and when he said this, my heart sunk into my stomach. He said, you know, how does it feel to know you're possibly a guinea pig and all this? And I remember saying, if that's true, I don't feel very good about it.

At that time, my whole mind flipped upside down. I'm like, what the, then all these memories started coming back. And I don't know. I'm still left, you know, I'll be honest with you, Ryan, this whole thing about me even coming out publicly in 2019 was probably never supposed to happen. But I have questions that need answering. And I feel like every single time I open,

a door, or every time I close a door, two more open up. And it just blows my mind. It really does because I've served honorably for this country. I've sacrificed everything. And especially for the ranch, I sacrificed, but my family has sacrificed. And I will tell you, if that's true, I don't know what to say really. It really, I don't have a lot of words to say about it. I'm just trying to figure it out, you know, as best I can.

And I don't know. You know, meeting people like James Keenan and Carl and some of the people in the community online have really helped me out a lot. And if it wasn't for them, I'd probably be in a pretty dark place. And then I met Terras Matla, obviously with the University of Maryland. And that was a huge bonus because I was able to document or I was able to donate my entire Skinwalker archive

to the University of Maryland. And for me, that was a big closure moment for me because I was able to kind of lock away those memories and some of that stuff and a place that will always be there forever. And my kids can go back and view that, the photography. And it's just awesome. You know, Teross Matlow at the University of Maryland,

he really helped me out. And it's because Taras saw something online. He saw I had an artistic eye. And he also was like, whoa, this is Skin Walker Ranch. Nobody has ever posted pictures like this before on Skin Walker Ranch. And I did it. I post those pictures online because I want to show people that it wasn't all scary. It was all beautiful.

There was some dark times out there, but it's also some gorgeous times out there. But for me, when I look back at my photography, I look back on my photography now. And it puts me in that mind frame of being alone out there and using my photography to kind of get through the weeks and get through. and get through some of the sketchy time because I'll tell you, walking from Homestead 1 all the way down to the Westgate at night,

at 2 o'clock in the morning, and you're by yourself and you got a couple of dogs with you. There's some nights where you get to Homestead 2 and you feel like, you know what? Something's telling me not to keep going forward. I need to go, and I would. I would listen to my gut extent all the time

because I felt like always being washed out there. Yeah. So, I don't know, I mean, I don't have any ill feelings to my previous employer. That shocks a lot of people. People think that, oh my God, you should definitely have you. Why? How's that going to help?

Because if you really talk about disclosure and discovering the truth, I hate to say it, but it comes with sacrifices. It does. So in this situation, I played my position of what I was supposed to do. Other people played their position. And that's how these special access programs work. However, in most special access programs, there is a constant open form of communication

where everybody is on the same playing field and there's information spreading very openly because in this situation with Skinwalker because there was a lack of communication most of the guys, including myself, didn't report half the stuff that we experienced because it seemed like nobody cared. That's the truth.

It seemed like nobody cared because we would, why am I spinning? There was a time where I would be inside Homestead 2 sitting in a lawn chair at 2 o'clock in the morning by myself, trying to make contact with whatever out there. And I remember one night thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing? I'm outgunned out here.

And I'm like, you know, all these things are playing the back of your mind. Like, what if a trespasser gets on the property? And I'm not at the Eastgate to stop them. And they get on here and they vandalize or they steal something. At the time, we had the ranch managers on there. What if somebody gets hurt? And then here's the best part.

So I'm in the homesteads. And this is all playing the back in my mind. I'm constantly operating the red zone. And then it's not like I clock out and I go home or I go down to a hotel to go to sleep. No, I go to sleep at Homestead 1 at Skinwalker Ranch. And I remember every night, close my eyes, thinking to myself, I hope nobody gets on the property and puts a bullet in my head. Because during my time, during my time, we had legitimate threats from locals that wanted to shoot one of us to prove that we were,

that we were either cursed or a hybrid. So all this is going to the back. your mind. So psychologically you're just pegged out, man. You're just like operating, you know. And then all this stuff comes all this stuff comes out, TV shows come out, documentaries come out, and I'm just

sitting there like, are you kidding me? Are you seriously kidding me? And I'll tell you what, man. There's been about 15 times where I've just almost just packed everything up, delete them all my accounts, and just let the narrative play out. And say,

I guess there'll be like another MK Ultra deal. Like when I'm 70 years old, I'll find out what was going on at Skin Walker Ranch, you know? I don't know. I have a lot of unanswered questions. And I'm Pat, my patience is gone now. It really is. And I'm just trying to close a door for my kids.

That's it. I have three young men I'm trying to raise. And to know that my time on Skinwalker Ranch may have affected my health negative, where time is not taken away from me because of my long-term exposure out there, I will tell you that does not sit very well with me. I don't think it would for any father. No, absolutely.

Everything you have said, I'm sure, is resonating with a hell of a lot of, first of all, veterans out there, and second of all, just human beings is what you've done in sacrifice for your country, for the scientific community, that's what they wanted were scientific answers and beyond. So, you know, before I move on here, thank you. Thank you for your service. Thank you for what you did on the ranch. Thank you for opening yourself up to that and making those sacrifices. Because I think we are getting closer to answers.

And I'm happy you didn't pack up in just leave because I do honestly feel that your contribution to this Skinwalker mystery is essential. Showing the light. I think, again, all we get is the spooky shit and the, you know, the really sensational stuff. And then you have, like you said, with the photo exhibition at the university, that shows how unbelievably beautiful this ranch and this basin and this state are. So, yeah, first of all, thank you for all of that. I appreciate that. I want to do. and I'm not saying that my

you know my my layer of Skinwalker Ranch is the right answer with the Native American stuff I'm just saying to me personally it's probably the most important layer because I feel like it's overlooked but all the stuff that the new team's doing with all the scientific stuff that they've collected and it's unbelievable I mean

I've been on there I've been back on Skinwalker Ranch now several times with or without the film crew I've gone out there on my own and met with the team and helped them with other investigations. And they've shown me data and it blows me away the stuff that you've collected. You know, you got Eric Bard out there with Brandon Fugel's team. That guy gets it and he's invested as the energy out there. He's out there and he's not messing around. He doesn't care about no TV show.

I'll tell you that right now. He doesn't care one single damn about a TV show. He's out there really trying to figure out on a scientific level what's going on out there. And I think that's extremely important. and then you have Thomas Winterton and Caleb Bench out there that are locals and they're out there all the time too those guys they truly get it you know and they put in that equity to understand

and they you know there's so many overlapping layers with Skinwalker Ranch it's just if there's magnetic anomalies around there and maybe that's what draw maybe that's what drew the natives out there to begin with it was those anomalies you know maybe that's what drew them out there to begin with and there's all kinds of stuff I mean I'm just one

piece of the puzzle. I'm not saying I'm the Skinwalker expert by any means, but I just feel like I have some very important data and I like to I appreciate your time for me to allow me to share some of that data with other people that I might have these questions as well. Do you like stories of the

strange, the weird, and the unexplained then we want you to check out Jim Harold's campfire. The concept is pretty simple. Jim talks to regular people about strange stuff that happens to them. And yes, that includes UFOs, along with cryptids, ghosts, and head scratchers. He doesn't exaggerate or play a lot of spooky music, kind of like I'm doing right now.

The stories speak for themselves. One's like a ghost story involving serial killer Ted Bundy, or the young man who encountered an eight-legged demon. Then there's the story of an alien an abduction by what could be considered a reptilian. Now, not all the stories are horrifying. Some are actually pretty heartwarming, like a visit from a past loved one, or a peaceful near-death experience. Regardless, these are true and fascinating stories

told by ordinary people who've had extraordinary experiences. Tune in to Jim Harold's Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. to Somewhere in the Skies. And remember, stay spooky. Hey guys, Ryan here. The Somewhere in the Skies podcast is a labor of love every week. And with that comes many different costs to keep the show running.

That's where our Patreon campaign comes in. You give what you think the show is worth. There's different rewards available all the time, including shoutouts on the show, early editions of main episodes, bonus episodes and content, and very soon, patron hangouts where we sit back and chat all things UFOs. So I hope you'll consider becoming a Patreon subscriber today. To learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you

for your support and keep looking up. Well, Chris, I've got some listener questions for you, man. If you're willing to stick around, some people really wanted to ask you some burning questions here. Is that cool? Absolutely. Awesome. I'm going to start with Melanie. Melanie is one of our Patreon subscribers and our patron members actually get priority to ask our guest's questions. So she's got a really good one here. She says, the burning question for me is, what does Chris think is really happening at the ranch? Current research being done seems to lean towards portals. What does he think about that?

Yeah, this whole portal aspect, you know, not only are we hearing that like maybe this is where the UAP are coming in and out of, but also that the tribes have used these portals as well. well. They're part of the petroglyphs. So what do you make of that whole aspect of this? The portals. Right. I think that the portals is a good possibility because not only did

the current team out there now has documented some pretty weird anomalies in the skies and stuff, but also NIDS said he saw portal stuff activity out there as well. And being out there myself, I never saw anything like that, but going back to some of my old pictures, you know, I've got like 3,000 images of the ranch during that time. I've tried to kind of go back and

see if I missed something. That was one of the reasons why I donated those pictures of the archive to the University of Maryland. Some more eyes can see those pictures. But I think everything is Native American based, in my personal opinion. The evidence is, you know, follow the data. Well, the data's all

around the whole unit of basin. It's not just Skinwalker Ranch, it's the whole U.N.A.S. and there's petroglyphs in McKee Springs that show portal activity or portals and things coming out of portals so when you see that you wonder what the hell is going on a skin walker in a ranch it might be another

location where people were drawn to to see these things or have experiences the Fremont Indians that were there they were there for a thousand years and like fell off the map but people locals say that the Fremont almost appeared out of nowhere and also giants there was talk about giants coming through portals and stuff.

That's more James Keenan's expertise. I would highly recommend you have him on the show. He knows a lot more about that stuff. My primary focus is obviously in the Native American artifacts and the history and the photography and that type of stuff. What were some of those artifacts that you came across? Would you mind sharing maybe a couple of those with us? Yeah, I found. The first artifact that I found was in the Eastern Valley.

It was actually a knife blade. And how I found it was bizarre. I had this routine that I would go with the dogs and we'd walk around the whole entire property and we'd end up and have lunch in the Eastern Valley on this rock table out there. And I'd feed the dogs food and water and I would kind of sit there and just absorb the area.

And I laid my backpack down. And I went to pick up my backpack and I must have missed it. But laying next to my backpack was a silver, granite arrowhead. I'm like, what the hell? And I picked it up and I'm like, whoa. And my whole mind kind of shifted. And I kind of do a grid pattern around the property.

And I'd find, you know, axe heads, grindstones. U. Agit is very important to the locals that are out there and the indigenous tribes before that. Because U. Agit is what was used to make tools and weapons and stuff like that. So when you find Uaget deposits, you're going to find flaking and, and stuff like that. And Bottle Hollow has a lot of U-Aggard around it as well. And so I found another area. It's actually a hollow rock.

And I found a bunch of sweatstones around this rock. So that area was used for ceremonial purposes. And that's pretty significant because the area kind of showed signs of maybe one or two people living there like it was nomadic. So maybe a Skinwalker. I don't know. And then I found stuff in black. I found stuff pretty much anywhere.

I mean, he went to basin. If I trek out, my eyes are always on the ground looking because my grandfather back here in Kansas when I was a kid and I was a young kid, he would take me out to these local fields and rivers and streams. And he would get permission from all the landowners because he used to work for the rock quarry. So he knew all the local farmers. And so he would get permission to go look for rocks on their property. And I would go out with them every Sunday and he would show me what to look for in the dues and don't, and the do's and don't.

You know, if there's a burial site, you don't mess with it, and other things with the look for, areas of interest. And my grandfather really is the one who trained me to look for that stuff. I didn't really put it together until I got to the ranch. And, yeah, I thought all kinds of stuff. It all happened for a reason. I love that. Amy, Amy on Patreon also asks, you know,

a lot of the experiments this season on the show, we had evidence of possible, like, cloaking. almost like invisibility you know in the one of the last episodes of the tv show um you know they set these rockets up to try to gather data and it's almost as if like these rockets bounced off and went in another direction in the triangle this area that you're very familiar with right and um i i guess amy wants to know uh any evidence when you were there or anything you heard about with like cloaking technology or possible invisibility stuff whether in the sky or um the ground, you know?

No, but I mean, you always get that sensation like you're being watched, you know? Right. It always felt like you're being watched. And sometimes it wasn't just while you're out walking around. There was a lot of times I'd be at home, I'd be at Homestead one, skyping with my wife, and I would feel like somebody was watching me inside the homestead.

They used to freak me out, but then after a while you get kind of used to it. There was one time, I'll never forget this. And I've never mentioned this before, but, there was one time I was in daytime and I was walking from homestead two down to homestead three and right in between there I felt like something was in the southern tree line like staring at me stalking at me to the point where I actually turned around and faced it and was like something's in that tree line and I sat there for like five 10 minutes with like this hand like this my map maybe it was my imagination or something I don't know

but it was weird. But I felt like something was always there. I know some of my previous colleagues who worked there, none of them ever reported that stuff either. But then again, we didn't have cameras and stuff out there. It was just us. So it's hard to document stuff. That baffles my mind, man, that, oh, God, don't get me started.

And the fact that, like, you had a better camera personally, then we won't go there. That's another conversation. of moving back to, I guess, Area 51 for a moment. I don't ideology on Twitter asks, Chris, did you ever come into contact with or become aware of anything that is definitely manmade, but would be perceived by general populace as extraterrestrial? Anything you could share, I understand if not, but yeah, yeah, anything like that man,

where it's like, dude, definitely ours, but you, yeah, yeah. Because we always hear that idea of like anything going on out there with black projects is like 40. We hear about it. The public hears about it's 30, 40 years later. Yeah. Yeah, look at the F117 project. You know, the F117 project was years later than the public knew about it. So it makes you wonder, you know, what do we have in our inventory, you know?

Yeah. Can I confirm or deny? Okay. I mean, honestly, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. I've seen some pretty interesting stuff,

and I guess I can just leave at that. I'm just glad we live in the United States, and we have technology that will keep us safe, hopefully. So it's about all I can say. Hey, that gives me a little comfort knowing that. EMP Rekker on Twitter asks, was there ever any experiment that went wrong at Skinwalker Ranch where, like, you know, it was,

Like, okay, we got to not mess with this or like abort mission on this. Anything like that? Besides myself being the experiment, kidding, joking. No. Semi-joking, yeah. Yeah, right. Now, we had, we did a remote viewing experiment once, and I knew it kind of got some negative feedback from another officer.

I never knew the in result from that experiment. I wish I did. Other experiments, I guess if you'd call them an experiment, we're sitting inside Homestead too, trying to make contact with the paranormal or whatever. That was pretty dicey. I know one guy literally drove himself insane

doing that. So that was a big red flag. That's about all I can remember. Okay. You know? Okay. But it wasn't, I mean, we did experiments, but it wasn't that many.

I came in in 2010, kind of the very end of the project. There was only a small handful of us out there operating. So I know maybe guys before me, maybe did more stuff. I don't know. I know I've reached out to some of the guys who were out there before me, and it was pretty much kind of the same thing. So I don't know. Okay.

Yeah, that's totally fair. Robert on Facebook asks, are you familiar with any teleportation technology such as jump rooms, portals, stargates? We kind of touched on that with the portal thing. Yeah. Yeah. In your experience working at these top secret locations and stuff,

was that ever conversation or are we still nowhere near that sort of technology? I honestly don't know. I mean, I have no idea. There are some very smart people that work at the tech. site in 51 that are very, very smart, very intelligent. So who knows? I don't know. I can't confirm because I'm only like to say stuff that I can prove, you know,

or second witness or something, but I never see anything in person like that. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's totally fair. The one revolution on Twitter asks, does S4 exist this supposed location in a hangar out there at Groom Lake that Bob Lazar has talked about.

And I guess to kind of play off of that, this whole idea of, you know, Area 51 in general, it's such a part of mythology now. You can go to the gates, get a selfie. You had this Storm Area 51 thing. So to me, that just screams. Anything really sensitive that was going on there

was probably moved somewhere else. I could be completely off on that. But yeah, what do you make of the claims of this S4 location? Does that resonate at all with you? And also, underground facilities. I mean,

I'm sure we have tons of those in the United States. What is your best guess of what area 52 might be, I guess? So yeah, two-prong question there, I guess. Yeah, I've never seen personally at S-4. They wouldn't surprise me if it exists. It would not surprise me one bit because the site is so big. There's so much areas to cover.

And there's some areas, believe or not, we're not even allowed to access, even for work security and police out there. There's some areas that are so secret that you can't even go on yourself with acute clearance. So, yeah, I mean, there's so much stuff online you can look at for the Nevada test site. There's the UNA hangar that's, you know, a thousand feet underground, laboratory. there's all kinds of stuff. Actually, I have a whole bunch of working there. I took a bunch of

their free pamphlets about the history of the Nevada test site. Really cool stuff. I think you can go online and find a lot of stuff and it probably surprised a lot of people. Some of the stuff that's available online about Nevada test site and Air 51 too. But it probably does

exist as far. I'm assuming it probably does. There's a lot of weird stuff out there, so who knows? But I've never personally been there with myself. But the next area 52, hmm, Wyoming. I'll say Wyoming. Okay. Just leave it at that or you?

I get that. Okay. There you go, guys. Everyone start going to Wyoming and start from there. That's just my guess. I mean, there's other places too. I mean, I don't know. I mean. Yeah, of course. Who knows? That's totally there. Awesome, man. Well, hey, I want to give you these final moments here to one of the best quotes that I pulled from something you said on the

Skin Walker Ranch television show and Brandon Fugel even tweeted this out a quote from you because it was it encompasses everything and you mentioned it earlier in this conversation of this is bigger than a scientific experiment bigger than a government contract it's bigger than all of us so I love to know what does that truly mean to you and what are some of the final words you want to leave our audience with with all of this, whether it's the UFO topic, Skin Walker Ranch. Yeah, what do you want to lead people with before we wrap things up here? Yeah. Yeah, I do believe the ranch, the whole Uywinsa Basin is bigger than what people realize. You know, there's real, there's real history out there. You know, we call the paranormal, the phenomenon,

when in reality it's considered culture. And it did be a real, you know, there's real history. And it indigenous tribes. It's part of the culture. Like I said, we're behind the curve here of understanding all that stuff. So I really believe the Native American history is the most important aspect, in my opinion. And that's just

because how much I've invested in looking for that type of stuff. And I think that's what I mean when I say it's bigger than all of us, because there is stuff that's out there that's just really blows your mind. Like, what is going on? what happened out here? There's so many overlapping layers of not just a Native American estimate,

but there's like the meteorite strikes, the Gilsonite, the magnetic anomalies. It seems like that whole section in Utah is just like a paranormal hot spot of all kinds of stuff. But a lot of it all relates back to Native American. And there's been people who've said, well, how come other Indian reservations aren't haunted or report this stuff? And the truth is they do. there's several there's several reservations that report

this stuff. I mean, my mom was born and raised on or she was raised my mom was actually born in Roswell Air Force Base. My grandfather was working at Roswell Air Force Base back in the day. But my mom actually grew up there. Yeah, I was thinking about that today. My grandfather worked at Roswell. He was in the Air Force and my mom was born on Roswell Air Force Base. But my mom was also raised around a lot of reservations

because my great-grandfather used to be the subcontractor for building schools and churches and stuff. So she was raised, she was raised in the four corners. And all those tribes, talk about UFOs, star people, skinwalkers,

werewolves, whatever you want to call it. And I don't know why that's just ignored, you know, it seems like it's not, it's just the more pieces of the puzzle, I guess, you know, But for me, that's what I think is the most important, you know. Yeah. One of the most important aspects.

I hope people take more time and they're like really diving back into those cultures and understanding the people who are here before us, you know. And I think that's important. Absolutely. I love that. And you've highlighted that so well with the photography project that you did. So in the final moments here, Chris, can you tell us where we can find your portfolio of all the incredible photos you have,

because I'm going to share some of those in the post edit here with the audience, if that's okay with you. And tell us a little about, I know you have a film project that might be coming up. If there's anything you can share, I'd love to give you that opportunity. Yeah, let us know where we can find all your work, if you don't mind. Yeah, Taras Matala, you know, he's the director for the University of Maryland.

He reached out to me a couple years ago. We started a conversation, and at first he asked to buy some prints and I said no I'll just donate all of them to the university because I wanted to get more eyes on to the situation with my photography but that archive is online

at Skinwalker Ranch portfolio.org is where you can find that and it was going to be a mini documentary attached to that a short one and it's going to have my own story in it basically and highlighting some of my most favorite pictures in it and some of the flip photography that I do as well where I take images and I flip them

and create like UFOs out of Mesa rocks and stuff like that. And so yeah, and I have a website to chris bartell.com. I don't update as much as I used to, but I probably should do a new re-haul and put some more pictures on there and stuff. But you can find some of my other projects I've worked on

and some of my old Las Vegas portfolio because I have a huge Las Vegas portfolio of like 20,000 images. I mean, I have, you know, 20 plus years in Las Vegas. I kind of treated, like, Ansel Adams is one of my favorite photographers. So I wanted to create this approach to Las Vegas. Like, if Ansel Adams came to Las Vegas, how would he photograph Las Vegas?

So a lot of my Las Vegas pictures around black and white, which are kind of cool or have that, you know, feel to them. And so, yeah, some of my Vegas pictures around there as well. And I'm still going out to this day and going out and photographing, you know, places in Utah. I'm going back to Las Vegas here pretty soon. So I can't, it's been a couple of years since I've been out there. So Las Vegas is one of those unique cities that every week the whole landscape changes. So, you know, the downtown, the canvas is always changing. So I'm always going down there, finding new things to photograph

and stuff. There was, I have a whole graffiti art gallery of, Las Vegas spent in 15, 20 years. I used to go to some of the worst parts of Las Vegas and photograph some amazing graffiti pieces down there. And I should probably share more of that stuff online too. I think people might like to see that. That's really cool, man. I love that imagery of the canvas is always changing.

Like, that's the perfect way to look at all of this, I think. Because we're all growing, we're all learning. We're all part of some grand performance. performance piece or art exhibition that's yet to be fully realized. But I think we're, we're getting there, man. And I'm so happy you did come forward. This, I'm going to say this on the record. This has been one of my favorite conversations on someone in the skies since the very beginning. So I appreciate that. I got to thank you, man. You shared a lot with us tonight that you didn't have to. So I truly appreciate that. Yeah. You know, I think I feel like, like I said, I'm just trying

really close a chapter and doing some of these shows helps me talk and vent a little bit and I don't mean to come across like arrogant or Mr. No at all I'm just I'm trying to be genuine in my approach and uh

that's that's kind of really it for me you know I at some point I want to just kind of close this chapter all together and focus on my new stuff that I got going on like I'm still going out to the basin and and I'm still continuing my own data research on my own with other guys too, and we're finding some really cool stuff.

And so, and I'm still going back to Skin Walker Ranch occasionally and showing them stuff, and they're showing me stuff. And, yeah, so it's been a real pleasure being able to share time with you, and I really enjoy my time here. So thank you for giving me the platform and opportunity to talk a little bit about my past and what I've done. My absolute pleasure, and thank you for your service. Thank you. I appreciate it.

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Welcome to Anamacan. Anamacan is a virtual conference on everything anomalous, live streaming on YouTube, Twitter X, and on Twitch. Join us on September 1st and 2nd, as over two dozen speakers give presentations on everything from UFOs and aliens to ghosts and the paranormal, from Bigfoot and Lake Monsters to witchcraft and the occult. It's all happening at Anamacan. And most importantly, it's completely free.

To learn more about our speakers in the event, visit Anamacan.com. We'll see you on September 1st and 2nd for Anamacan. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Hi, guys, Ryan Sprague here from Somewhere in the Skies. And I am coming to you from an undisclosed location for top secret regisans. But I am making this interview happen tonight because I've been waiting for a while to talk to this gentleman. Now, I first heard about him through the television show Unidentified, which aired in the U.S. on the history channel. It aired here in the UK on Sky TV as well.

And it was part of one of the, I would say, most explosive two episodes of Unidentified, actually. This gentleman was in two different episodes about UFO events that happened over nuclear installations, a topic that we have covered here in the past, but not as in-depth as we will tonight. As you guys know, I'm all about the human side of UFO experiences. And ever since I saw this gentleman on the television show and have seen him in past interviews, it's very clear that this event has affected him greatly,

like it has many other military personnel and civilians as well. So we're going to talk all about the event that happened to him at LZE, Worth Air Force Base in 1977 in just a little bit. But I do want to thank everyone for being here. I know we've got a bunch of people in the chat already to welcome. We've got James. We've got Donovan. And we're going to be taking listener questions tonight as well, guys.

So if you have questions for our guests, you can put them in the super chat, which helps the show out tremendously. We will ask those towards the end of the show. But without further ado, let's bring him in to talk all about the event that happened to him at Ellsworth Air Force Base. And that is none other than Mario Woods. Mario, welcome to somewhere in the skies. Hello, Ryan. Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. You know, we have been trying to make this happen for a while now. We've been emailing back and forth for, I'd say, a little under a year now. Yeah. And we've finally made it happen. So we're going to make it worth it tonight for sure. Good. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, for those who may not be familiar with the show Unidentified,

I know you did another special on Discovery Plus sort of recently as well. Can you tell us a little about who you are? You know, we'll get to the military career aspect. But yeah, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience who may not be familiar with you, if you don't mind. Okay, well, my name's Mario Woods. I'm 67 years old. live in Brunswick, Georgia. I work for a paper company now, Georgia Pacific. My hobbies are radio control car racing, tactical shooting, physical fitness, just taking care of my property and just do everything I can to continue onward in this journey. Right. Right.

Well, I don't know how far you want me to expound on that or anything, or is that good enough? Oh, no, no, no. That's perfect, man. The journey is definitely what we're going to be talking about tonight. Well, let's start with your journey into the military. What made you, what compelled you to want to join the Air Force, if you don't mind? Well, honestly, I just always had a thing about aircraft and airplanes. But living in Tampa, Florida, for as long as we do. did. You used to always see the launches from NASA across the state, you know, in Cocoa Beach. And it just always, you know, it just always enthused me, you know, aerial, you know, superiority, that kind of thing, and rockets and missiles and stuff like that. But my father was a merchant seaman and lost him. My first day, I'm a senior high school year. So I should have probably

gone in the Navy. And instead, I just didn't want anything to have. have to do with the sea any longer. So even though I used to go to sea with him sometimes, so I decided to go in the Air Force. And I went into the security police and went on the security side of it, which was kind of like the security forces as it as is today. And went through all the training. We did even did some Ranger training down in the Philippines and so forth. That was like 79 when they were trying to integrate Air Force into better modes and more secure. modules of training. So it gave us a better leg to stand on.

But it's, you know, I don't forget the journey. It was really, really great. And I'd do it again today if they'd have me. Gotcha. Well, I guess what was your first station stationing at Ellsworth Air Force Base? Oh, yeah. Or had you work? After basic training in technical school, right?

Air Base Ground Defense training. Yeah, that was my first base, was Ellsworth Air Force Base. And it was really different. You know, here, you know, here I'm an 18-year-old from Tampa, Florida. And all of a sudden I'm in a missile complex in the middle of nowhere in South Dakota. So it was really different, but really eye-opening, not really knowing what the global threat was only, you know, as a student hearing about it, you know, the Cold War or what have you. And then all of a sudden you're thrust into the middle of it where you, you know, there were times where I got to actually go down inside of a silo and put my hands on a missile, you know, and just think, wow, I wanted to write something on it, but that's a federal event. So you can't do it, you know, but, but I learned a great deal there. Wow. I can't even imagine, you know, the pressure that you and so many of the people on base had to deal with.

with day to day. And first of all, thank you for your service before we go any further. My first question would be, what does the typical day of a security police officer look like at a base like Ellsworth? I'm sure it would change day to day. But yeah, what was kind of the protocol of a day to day there? First of all, you know, even though Ellsworth was where you're assigned, that's just your support base. And these missile sites are, you know, are spread throughout the northwestern side of South Dakota, as in Montana, as in Wyoming, as in North Dakota. And anyway, our base had 150 missiles, as the other bases did also. And then you live on these launch control facilities for three days at a time, then you're off for three days.

But you live there, and your hours rotate per shift or per tour of duty, we used to call it, like 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. And there, you know, staffing-wise on a launch control facility, you have six security police officers, four which are response personnel, two or flight security controllers. You have a facility manager, a cook, and you have four officers there,

and two or which are underground at all times, you manning the capsule, the launch control capsule. So then you monitor based on their dispatches, you know, and you do LF checks, launch facility. checks to any and all missile sites and, of course, address any and all security-related alarms that go off, and they do go off. So in terms of going off, now we're going to get to the main event that we will be the

crux of the conversation tonight. But had you ever had any other incidents occur non-UFO related on the base during your time there? Not on the base, no. I mean, of course, you're hearsay. My first experience of anything that flying, which was with my mother and my sister, was in Port Arthur, Texas being taken to my elementary school, De Queen Elementary, where my mother pointed out, along with about 1,500 other people I'd say, well, maybe not that many, maybe 800.

All the kids in the playground, all the teachers hanging out of windows, it was a one, And it was a building where you went to school from kindergarten to 12th grade. And I'd say that was probably right around 61, 66. Yeah, 61, 62. I was just, that was my first year and going to school kindergarten or first grade. I can't quite remember. But there were three objects sitting over top of a church, only about 50 feet in the air. And they were in a white silver and had a lower circulating light.

and my mother pointed them out. She said, look, Anthony, there's flying saucers. That's my middle name. And we were just so astonished. All the cars in front of us were stopped, which was probably six or eight cars. And then the playground area, which was directly across the street

from the school itself, was fenced off, so it was an entire playground area. Still there today. I saw it just back in 2008. And I just stood there and thought about that. The church is no longer there and the school's been redesigned, but that morning was really, really unbelievable because we just couldn't believe what we saw

and how fast they vanished straight up, all three. Same time, you know, they were probably 75, 80 foot in diameter. And this is a five, six-year-old kid telling you this. So I don't know if it leaves much room for imagination when you've never seen something like that before. So it's pretty much, it was pretty factual exactly what we saw. And, you know, and once they were gone, this is the weirdest thing. Robert Hastings even said this to me that a lot of times, you know, people witness something, and as soon as it's gone, it's like, okay, it's all normal. It's okay. And that's the way that day went,

exactly the way it went. Interesting. You do hear that a lot, you know, particularly, I did a investigation recently for a TV show on the Phoenix Lights incident. Oh, yeah. And a lot of those witnesses claimed the same thing after what they saw. It was like something in their brain just, shut down and they didn't want to talk about it or they had some sort of like instant amnesia or there was something that just compelled them to move on and not react to what it just occurred. It's fascinating. I do wonder often, you know, is that some sort of, as Jacques Valet would say, a control mechanism of the craft you're actually seeing or what?

Yeah. Yeah, I really think so. I do. I spoke with one guy out there, and I don't, he don't want his name mentioned or anything, but by email. And he said, you know, he witnessed that and he was there and he had some pictures. I tried to get him to send me the pictures, but he didn't want to send me pictures over the internet. You know, people are strange about that. But anyway, he said, they were having a party in his backyard. And I don't know, birthday party or something for his daughter. And that happened. And why he elected to tell me about. that I don't know he had seen one of the one of the podcasts I think with someone and he just thought he and my email was there and he thought he would get in touch with me and he did but he said it was as if okay it's over everybody goes back to the party nobody even discussed it which I found extremely strange but that's the way it is yeah right I know I've come across hundreds of those at this point and speaking of emails you're probably going to get a bunch after this

interview I'm already warning yeah I try to answer everybody I can you know I have nothing to hide. I'm too old to worry about any of this other mess. I don't have any clearances any longer. So, you know, you can ask anything you want. Well, we appreciate that, certainly. You know, the more military personnel that come forward, I think it really elevates the conversation.

It does make people stop and listen. You know, you are trained observers. Your jobs are literally to look for threats at these installations. And they're happening at an alarming rate. And they cannot be explained. So I guess let's just dive into it. You know, let's rip the bandaid off, Mario. This event that happened to you, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base.

I want to give you the time to just tell it as you'd like. You know, I know you've done it before. But this is your time to kind of just run us through it, you know, from, I guess, start to finish. there's kind of a tangential aspect to your story in terms of the missing time, which I'd like to cover separately if that's okay with you. Sure. But yeah, maybe just run us through what happened in 1977 at the base.

Okay. Well, first of all, it was our first day out, being taken from the main base of Ellsworth out to November 1, which is where I was assigned at the time. And I was working with a new partner named Michael Johnson. and he was working vacation relief for my normal partner. And being that he outranked me, he was the team leader by like two months. So anyway, it was nice to meet him and a real nice fellow. And I believe he said he said he was from Chicago, Illinois, but I'm not positive.

Hopefully, we'll make contact with him in the future. And we've been trying for years. Anyhow, it was maybe 915, 920 at night. I just stepped outside. You know, this site is in the middle of a prairie. The closest town is Newell, South Dakota. And it's about eight and a half miles away to the south. And more south to that is Sturgis, which many people are familiar with.

And that's a launch control facility right there where we lived. That looks like November 1. Of course, they all look alike. I hope it is November 1. I believe it is. if I did my research. Yeah. And I was out there last year in September, which was, no, July, which was really cool.

Anyway, so I walked out in the front of this building, which is just standing outside. And the only town north of that is Belfouch, about 29 miles to the north. And then you have the North Dakota state border on beyond that. But anyway, over to the east, which would be to the right side of this picture, I stepped out in the parking lot to smoke a cigarette and just to stretch my legs, I smoked in. And I saw an object at about a 30 degree elevation in the sky. And I was kind of confused by it because it was so large and it was so bright, but it was a different intensity of light that I've ever seen before. I honestly thought it was two B-52 bombers,

which we supported a strategic bomber squadron at Ellsworth Air Force Base. They're already ready to go. I mean, that's what they do, and that's what Ellsworth was, that in missiles. And I honestly thought that's what they were, because sometimes they'll fly these sorties, you know, where they're training flights, but they get really, really low, like three, four hundred feet off the ground, and they're just ripping. And, you know, I mean, they have some really big lights on them. I've never seen that kind of light, but that's what I thought they were. Maybe they were in tandem behind each other or something.

It was so strange that it kept my attention. And the other thing was I didn't know if it was coming directly toward me or moving. It wasn't moving away from me. So I really couldn't see it. It wasn't stationary even. That's why I thought it was coming toward me and I couldn't really detect that, you know, visually. And I'd say it was probably, you know, seven, eight miles away, maybe more. But it was very large.

In relationship to large, I'd say it's like looking at a quarter of a moon, a diameter of a moon or something, you know? Yeah, it was bright like that. And anyway, I don't even know what came over me. It was up there for such a period of time. I thought, well, I'll just try what they do at sea. My, you know, my father taught me and showed me how they used to use the ship's lights to, you know, to flash other lights, other ships for communication. So I ran inside my buddy Bill Holloman. He was on the phone. He was talking to his wife and back at Ellsworth. And I said, Bill, there's something out here. I wish you'd take a look at.

And he just kind of waved me off. And so I just walked up to the panel. And it was just one switch control, 12 to 14 lights around the facility. And they were all these two-foot diameter can lights, you know, that illuminate the perimeter and the building. And I flipped them off, flip them on. No sequence, no SOS or anything like that, just for fun. Just flip, blip, blip, flip.

I went back outside and it flipped it so it flipped off and flipped back on. Now, yeah, and I went, well, that's different. You know, immediately then I thought helicopters, you know, because there's a lot of times, you know, we had helicopters doing trips that come out to the sites or to LCS or to the LFs or to the LF, dropping off people or bringing a maintenance team or something, emergency configuration or anything. But anyway, so I ran back inside excited. And as I went back in, I told Michael Johnson, my team leader at the time, I said, hey, Michael, come out here and check this out, man. I said, I flipped lights at this object, at this thing, and it flipped the lights back.

He didn't even really pay any mind to me. And he was watching the TV on our three channels that we had there in 77, so you can imagine what they don't know how much TV. So I did it again and went back outside. and it went off and came back on. And I thought, what is this? And when it went back off, it moved. And I couldn't say, I didn't know that at the time. So I got Michael Johnson.

I said, you got to come out there and see this. So he came outside and he sees the light, or he sees it, the object, the light. And it had moved a little bit further north, but I think it had gotten a little bit closer compared to where it was. And so I went back inside again. I said, hold on the minute. I flashed the lights at it.

Again, same sequence. Ran back outside. Nothing happened. All of a sudden it went off. And it didn't come back on. So that was three times. And now it was about five minutes or so to 10. And he just said, you know, like whatever, you know,

he didn't really make a comment or anything. And as I said, we didn't really not. know each other. So, you know, I'm inquisitive anyway and it just, it just seemed that really sparked my interest for some reason. And anyway, I like flying on helicopters and I thought, well, that's really a new ploy there with these helicopters they're doing that way. So, anyway, go back inside. I said, well, I guess it shows over and went back inside, sat down, picked up a book or something, started reading it and watching some TV. Remember, it used to go off at midnight and you'd get those really strange characters and everything on your TV.

So I guess it was about 1230, somewhere right in that time. And the MCC phone or LCC phone went off in the flight security controller's office. And it's a direct line between the flight security controller and the missile combat crew down below. And when it went off, it just, it's a phone that you, it doesn't ring like a normal phone. he just says, answer me now. It won't stop until you pick it up. So you have to pick it up. And anyway, I heard the officer there telling Bill Holloman, he says, it's a sit four at November five.

And I thought, well, that's weird. We hardly ever got those. That was an outer and inner zone alarm. And they're different, you know, than the standard thing we go out when there's a bird or something flying through the antenna array or something like that. So anyway, we got our briefing and everything from the capsule crew. And whenever it's that level of alarm, back at Ellsworth, you have the communication center there that really oversees. It's WSC wing security control. They like monitor any and all alarms going on or anything on base, too.

So they have a dual purpose. But anyway, they were aware of it. And they, of course, gave us a safety briefing as well. So we got all of our stuff together and our codes and our weapons and loaded up everything. And it was about 9 to 13 degrees outside. And yeah, we had F-154 pickup trucks. And they were just two-wheel drive trucks. And, of course, we had a front-in loader, a caterpillar front-in loader on the site in case, you know, we needed to dig out of there, which did happen a few times.

But not all the time. But anyway, so we responded. did after our safety briefing and everything our travel time was probably about 12 or 14 minutes from November 1 to November 5 and so we got in the vehicle and he's operating the vehicle he's a driver and we pull out of the gate go down to the first intersection which all these are clay roads out there that that are just as they're some better than highway roads you know i mean they really maintain the roads and these clay roads. So we take a left, go to the next intersection of left,

and go off the highway 79, which is about four and a half miles away. And as you're traveling to dirt road or the clay road up to Highway 79, the road beds are elevated for snow runoff and water and what have you. And mind you, you know, you're at a mile high. This is nothing but pure prairie land there. And so as we rolled up to 79, I just looked over to my right. which would have been about the four o'clock position now as we rolled up on the highway. As I, as we did, I looked to my right and I see this really strange glow miles away,

but from that area on November 5th. And I thought, you've got to be kidding me. How strange is that? You know, you know what's going on out in these, by these missile sites normally because you traversed them so much, you check them so often. And as soon as we made that right turn on the highway, 79, which goes downhill toward Newell, I told Michael, I said, dude, I said, just like that, I said, that's that object sitting on November 5. And he just says, oh, whatever, man, he didn't,

he just, it just went right over him. He didn't believe me. So from that four o'clock position, and now moved to about the two o'clock position visually, and it was just pulsating. Well, the further we went down toward Newell, it was downhill. So I lost the sight of that pulsation. and we came to the stop sign in Newell on Ormond Road still there today and there's one stop sign and there's one stoplight in Newell and the stoplight is straight ahead and you take a ride on Ormond Road toward November 5 and population today, 624 or something population then was 234 in in the 57 yeah so it's a real small town but it's really nice people there and so we turn right And as we went out, it was paved road.

And about a mile and a half into it, it drops back off on the clay. But at dog legs to the left, which is important, I really couldn't see it until then. But we dropped off of that pavement back onto the dirt, and he went to the left. And there sat this object on top of November 5 that dwarfed the site, 10 feet in the air, no noise, no hard edges, no protrusions, no insurm. engines, nothing that I can even explain aeronautically how it could be doing what it's doing. And we pulled up directly in front of that site and that object, probably, I guess the cattle gate, which ranchers have to keep their cows from coming out onto the highway to the roads. That's where we stopped at a 45 degree angle, which was a tactical position for the pickup truck.

so it's laughable today, but that's what we did then. But this object was so large that if you can picture a ball over a square area, the diameter was so large, really, that the pickup truck was somewhat not covered by it, but the edges of that diameter were just not far away. at all, just 50-so feet, I guess. I don't know. I mean, it was just so large. You couldn't see the top, obviously. You know, from far away, you can see the top or the full circumference of it, but underneath it, you couldn't. And I don't know what came over me, but it seemed as if I looked at Michael Johnson and he was like in some kind of a, he was bathed in some kind of a light, like a bluish glow, bluish white glow behind him. and he was on the steering wheel just like this just stuck to that steering wheel and i for some

reason i knew that we had we needed help and uh you know we're in full parkas flat pants mittens i had my had my mittens on i had one on and the other one off and uh anyway the only thing i knew to do i had to ask for relief we couldn't breathe it was as if the interior of that vehicle is being vacuumed out, and we were in it. And I can smell the air. Every time I talk about this thing, I can smell the air right now. Someone is like electrified or something like ionized. I don't know what else to say about that.

But anyway, we had those old Western mirrors on these vehicles, those big aluminum mirrors. And so with my mitten off on my right hand, I pull myself up onto the windows. seal. Now, you know, I'm 22 years old and I'm in some of the best shape of my life. And why I didn't get out, I was literally afraid and my partner wouldn't say anything. And I pulled myself out onto that window sill and I took my maglight and I held onto the bubble with my right mitten, my left mitten. And I flash this thing. I just flashed my maglight at it. Just now what, what difference or what really did that mean that little, that decal maglight to this object that's size of a Walmart building.

I flash that light in no sequence again, three or four times, and I slithered back down in that seat, and I put my M-16 between my legs, and I just remember putting my head down, and all of a sudden I could breathe again. Just that way, I could breathe again, but it was labored, but I could breathe.

And it seemed as if tunnel vision came upon me, and I was just going in like this. And as I did, I turned to my right. I felt such fear to my right. Because all you have is a piece of glass, right? I roll the window up. And as I did, I see these shadowy figures on my right side approaching me. And what got my attention was in the midsection of the one being,

and they're not creatures, they're beings. and these these are beings this is no there that there are beings there was something in the waistband or some kind of a band that had a yellowish glowing tip on it and then the top it was a tall one it was four total the tall one in the back was substantially taller and had a different feature now I couldn't see it real clear I mean I don't know how to describe this kind of vision but the three in the front looked identical or their shadows were the same or their the way they looked were the same but the one in the back he had this thing right here on his chest but it was at a really strange shape and it glowed and it stuck out it wasn't just

in him it stuck out and then I closed my eyes I guess everything just went black I don't know what happened to Michael Johnson. I don't know if anything was on that side of the vehicle or he saw anything. He never indicated that he did. He never spoke. The last time that he spoke during all this up at this point was when he said, whatever man, up on Highway 79, when we first arrived on 79. I don't remember the radio going off or anything like that.

And just as that happened, I opened my eyes and I'm in total blackness. It was as if you walk into a, I don't know, I don't know, just total blackness. And I was trying to gather myself as to really what happened and where I was I and just everything about me and just being, I guess. And I reached down and I popped the door open. And I stepped out. And when I stepped out, it was that my vision started to come to me. And I had on bunny boots, which are an inflatable boot that you use in wintertime to keep your feet warm, especially in temperatures, you know, well below zero and using them on aircraft carriers and it's a issued item.

Anyway, I stepped out in mud and I couldn't figure out. Well, the ground's frozen. It's been, you know, below freezing for, what, a week and a half or something, two weeks? I don't really not. And it was just a very strange step out in mud. look as I look all of a sudden this white wall comes into focus it wasn't a wall like straight up and down you know like the ground and it straight up and down it was at an angle and as I as I looked to my right which would have been I would have been looking north it was as far as I could see when I looked

the opposite direction to the south it was as far as I could see I still didn't know where that was and all of a sudden the radio cracked the life. And I just kind of looked over, just shaking my hand. I said, where's November 5? And then I said, Michael, you're going to get that? He didn't answer me. He was locked on to that steering wheel like he was paralyzed on that steering wheel. And his eyes were just huge.

His eye, he was breathing. But he had nothing coming out of him as far as talking. he just he wouldn't even he wouldn't even utter i mean he would nothing i couldn't get anything out of him i moved him i pushed him i did everything i could do to try to hey man what's wrong with you what's wrong with you and uh i couldn't get anything out of him i answered a radio and i and i was a senior airman at the time you know called w sc was calling us and i said um senior emu woods i said it's november one i said uh go ahead c sc see like that. And they said, what's your location? And I just said, sir, I don't know. And I said,

my team leader, I said, he is not responding. He's faced to ask me if he's conscious. And I said, yes, I was wide open. And, you know, we went through that for a second. He goes, I need you to do one minute security checks with me until we find you. We're triangulating, you know, your location. And, of course, I wasn't familiar with that. I'd heard about it in, you know, in training, you know, insecurity police, but I'd never done it before him. Like I said, I was just 22 years old. But anyway, so they were looking for us. So I did just what he said.

In the meantime, I tried to wake up. Michael Johnson is still trying to figure out where we were, why I wasn't standing in this mud, which I'd gone around the vehicle now, and the vehicle was pointing to the south. And what was strange was that just outside that driver's side door, maybe four feet directly away from it was a great big downhill into another lake or something. I didn't know where we were to start with it, but it was a big huge lake, but it was frozen.

And I thought, how do we get here? What are we doing here? And so I kept doing the security checks. And finally, I see these lights come over the horizon. How they found us, I still don't know how to do all that today, but there was a Sergeant Garza that approached me. and that approached us first, and there were two other vehicles. So they had three backup alert teams looking for us. And so that's six security policemen. And anyway, as he pulled up, he pulled maybe 20 yards from where we're located, and he got out and he walked through the lights, and I saw him coming.

And our lights, I can't even mean, our lights were off. I mean, our vehicle was off. And I said, Hey, Sergeant Garza, I said, what's going on? You know, I mean, you almost make you feel like you've done something wrong. That's, that's what they always try to do to make you, you did something wrong. Well, I knew something was wrong because I dangone sure didn't go. I didn't strike that site as I was supposed to.

And it was a set forward, which was a serious alarm. Strike means respond and find out what the cause was. I never got to go on the site. I never left the vehicle. And my job was to go on to the facility, do an internal. you know, patrol around the inside of the fence. Go to... This episode is brought to you by Netflix.

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Frances Angano versus Felipe Lins. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. East Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. Go down below ground on a soft support building and see if anybody's there or what happened. But the alarm was in another plug that goes down to the missile, which we don't have. We have access to just one part of it.

Nobody has access to all of it. But anyway, he approached me. He said, Mario, he says, he goes, he just sit there. He said, I can't talk to you about it. We're here to take you back November 1. I said, oh, okay. I said, well, man, I said, I don't even know what happened. He said he wouldn't say anything.

So and at this point, this is where unidentified said they relieved us of our weapons. That never happened. They never took our weapons. And I found that as an insult. Be honest with you, you know. But I guess that's production of some kind that I didn't agree with. Should have asked me that first. That's TV, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah. That's just boring, crap, man. but I, and that, that, never mind. I won't say anymore. But anyway, I asked him, I said, I need some help with Michael Johnson. I said, I don't know. He's in a catatonic state. And I didn't know what the word truly meant back then, but I do now.

And we unbelted him. We didn't have shoulder harnesses. We just had seat belts at that time in 77, and he's up on 50 boards, slid him over to the passenger side, belted him back in, got in the vehicle. And to this day, I didn't know exactly where we were, you know. And at that time, and about 15 minutes later, we pulled up November 1. And we were driving through areas that I just, I didn't even know about, you know.

And that was part of my area. And I just never been in it before. There's no missile sites where we were. Let's put it that way. And so we get to November 1, and they're the flight chief, the assistant flight chief, and others are there. It's questioning us and I immediately had to have help. but Michael Johnson. Well, they immediately separated us.

And they off-duty capsule crew, they were upstairs. And they were assisting and talking, trying to talk to Michael Johnson. And they took me into the day room, took him in the back bedroom because he was non-responsive verbally. I mean, they just say he would walk, but they just led him to where he was going. I remember watching him walk through the gallery, through the kitchen area, you know, where our dining area and back in the back hallway. And so I sat down and they started asking me questions and I, you know, and I said, well, I said that object that I saw last night. I said, that was that November 5.

I remember saying that. And of course, that went right over everybody's heads. You know, the only person I really knew about it was Bill Holloman and he was in flight security control. And he didn't come out and see it. But anyway, so they started asking me questions. I answered questions for probably 20. 30 minutes. My flight chief was there. The assistant flight chief was back with Michael. And I just told them everything that I saw and what I experienced. And then, you know,

what I did with the lights and how I did that and and never responded to the, never went on to the site as I was supposed to, which had to create a problem. That had to be, that had to be a problem. So they had to go find out what caused that at that facility to somewhere else. And I never found out who did it. Somebody had to go strike that site. And so I just had to get away from, I just, I just said, hey, I need to go to the restroom. And I didn't. I just, I just needed to get away from everybody for a minute because they were just pounding me with questions. And I couldn't think fast enough. And I was just, just in disarray, I think. I wasn't myself. And I went into the restroom, which was really strange because I was, I was,

I went in this one stall. It was two stalls in this restroom, and I was just out there, and I couldn't believe. The first thing I did when I got to the site was I went in that stall. Well, it's all torn up right now, but I just had to walk in that bathroom because, I mean, that was a really strange time. But I went in there and sat down on top of the toilet. I just sat there, fully uniformed, everything, and just held my head in my hands. And all of a sudden, I felt as if I was leaving my body. body and I was leaving it going going I thought I was dying I guess and I went I was going out the

top of my head down through my stomach and out of my feet literally I mean I knew the path I was taken and how I've never heard of anything like that before anything like that before I didn't complete whatever whatever was happening to me because I opened my eyes and I see these four furry feet walking by the stall door. It was a German Shepherd drug dog. And I said, I said, hey, man. I said, hey, boy, or whatever. And then the law enforcement guy, which is the other side of security police is law enforcement,

L.E and SPs. He goes, hey, Mario. I said, man, my bag's out there in a day room. He said, we already checked it. He said, it's all good. I just want to come check on you. How are you doing? you know and i said i don't even know and i didn't relate to him what you know i was feeling like

then but i was glad he came in there because i don't know how far that could have taken me you know because really i honestly felt as if i was leaving my body and um i mean even my vision changed things got super super light i mean bright and light you know but that was a really strange thing but so anyway we were there probably another hour hour and 15 minutes and they had they had another armed response team come out i guess from elsewhere they relieve us because you know it has to be staff no matter what mission one right so you know you have to have six security police you can't just send two away and um so without replacement so our relief came and um we were escorted back to the base uh he rode with the assistant flight chief and i rode with uh sorry

My Sergeant Gray back to Ellsworth. And when we got to Ellsworth, we went to the SATAF building, which was our security operations building. And CSC worked out of that building in a hardened facility. And directly to Colonel Spraker's office, which he was my squadron commander at the time. Base commander was there. And there was a flight chief there of another flight, of another flight and from a different area and because it wasn't just my incident that there were other incidents out there too but uh anyway

i guess they wanted a full debrief on on all it was going on but anyway um osi was there and there was also another man in a suit with a with a hat and uh i didn't i wouldn't introduce to any of these people i just just the military people i knew but there was a young osi trainee there and um named richard Doty and he's appeared on several of these shows and I've been trying to contact Richard Doty because he was in my interview and not only was he in my interview, but he also went to the flight surgeon's office after I arrived there. So medically he was there and in the very beginning he was there just as an observer, I guess, I don't know, but he had an officer that was, you know, over him. And, and, in the very beginning, he was there. And, and, in the very beginning, he was there, just as an observer, I guess, I don't know, but he had an officer that was, you know, over him. And so I've tried emailing him. I've tried texting him. I've tried calling this guy. Everything possible, I've tried to go through Linda Moulton Howe.

Everybody that I've come in contact with us said, I need to speak with Richard Doty. I can't get him anywhere. Wow, that name is infamous in the UFO world. That really took me by surprise, Mario. I'm sorry. Wow. The fact that he might be able to answer me. And I wonder why.

I never did anything to him. never really knew him. But he was there by God. He's one person that was there. And then there was some other incidents later, which he talked about. But he knows of my incident in 77, mine and Michael Johnson's. And I would really like to have that backup because we can't find Michael Johnson anywhere. And there's been substantial monies spent investigations, just trying to find him. Now, I thought he said he was from Chicago, Illinois, but we haven't had any luck. locating it. In any media, you know, I mean, every platform there is, I've joined them to get it out there.

Even together we served and other friends of mine that may have known him that I served with. Gotcha. Two questions for you, Mario, before we move on, if that's all right. I know, so after this debriefing, which that is quite a room of individuals to be debriefing to. There were a few more there, a few more. Okay. My first question for that is, were you told to be quiet about this? We always hear about that. And my second question, I believe it was unidentified that said that you did speak to Mario, or excuse me, you spoke to yourself. You did speak to Michael Johnson one time after the event? Two weeks later. Okay. So first question, were you told to be silent about this? And second, what was said between you and Michael after the event, if you don't mind? Well, there's a two-week span in there.

And if I can go from the commander's office, when that was finished talking about, per se, I had to write a preliminary report on a security police blotter, which, you know, back then, there was, you know, we didn't have any computers or anything like that. Everything was done by typewriter. But I hand wrote on this form, and it was three pages. And, of course, it makes three copies. So you have to use a number two skill craft pins. They mandate a number two skill craft pin.

Of course, you can take apart your M16 with it and everything else, but that's the number two skill craft pin black that I had to use for that report. So it was about three pages. And then from that point, then I went to the flight surgeon's office. And then that examination took about an hour, hour and 50 minutes maybe. And Richard Doty was there for that too,

as was the guy in the hat and the suit. and a couple of other officers and a nurse. I think there were five people there total. But Richard Odie was there for that also. And during the ears, nose, nose, eyes, throat, you know, normal stuff checked. They didn't take blood from me, which I was kind of surprised. But I guess there was no reason to. But they did take the flight surgeon said, he goes, I need to take a couple of skin samples.

and that just totally took me by, you know, by surprise. I said, what do you mean skin samples? He said, well, your face is burned on the right side. Well, that made sense because, you know, my beret comes down in a certain way, you know, so, but it makes sense. And then my back of my right hand was burned where I didn't have a mitton on. So right above my right eye, he took a skin sample from up here. I think you took more than one, put a small band-aid up there. and then he took some off the back of my right hand around these knuckle areas right here

and I don't even know it's sunburn now I felt it the next day in the next couple days but of course being from Tampa Florida I hadn't been at a beach in a long time so you know when you're living in South Dakota you just seem to lose that resiliency and you will sunburn so anyway so they took those skin samples and or he did put him in put him into two separate files and then they released me to go back to the commander's office which i had a further debrief and then i was told you know could not discuss this with anybody and at the time i was working on november one and had been there for several years um the other thing was they moved me from november one to keelow one which was further out to the west toward almost the wyoming border and november was still a part of that of that

configuration of course but it was that was all the 68th area you had the 68 67th and 66 area all the way down to the badlands but anyway so I worked there with a guy named Mark Wade but he's a good friend of mine but two weeks later I'm in an apartment in in a rapid city is where I lived and Michael Johnson who I as I said I've never known before he knocked on my door. I didn't, I had no idea. And over the door, I said, Michael, I said, man, it's good to see you. Because I hadn't seen him since that happened and hadn't talked to him. And I think he lived in the barracks on base. And he said, man, I just have to come talk to you about what we saw. And I said, by all means, come on in. So he sat down and right away, the first thing it is,

I gave him some paper, you know, just nine by 11 or eight by 11 note sheet. And I said, here's a pencil on a pencil or you want a pen. I said, you sit here and I'm going to go sit over there and the dining room table and I said, let's draw what we saw. And we both drew basically the same thing. And he said he didn't know what happened to him, but whatever it was, it just took him over. You know, he didn't say if he saw anyone, he didn't say or saw a being or anything.

He never said that to me. But he said he had never seen anything like that and he was scared literally to death. And I said, did you hear me talking to you? he said no. So, you know, that's the way that went, basically. And he visited for about an hour and then he left. And that's the last time I ever saw him or heard from him again. Now, I did have his address where he was from. That's why I came up with Chicago, Illinois. And I thought I'd placed it in my Bible, but I have moved probably several hundred times since 1977 and gone overseas and everything else. And I was going to buy it with me. So I don't know.

know where I could have lost it at, you know. I sure wish I could contact him today because it would I would feel complete if, you know, right now I just feel as if I'm out here and, you know, I mean, it's, it's incredible what happened and there's a lot more to it. I don't even know what else to say, but I wish that we were sitting side by side discussing it in front of anybody. Yeah. Right. I know it would give you a clearer picture. And, you know, I know these fractured sort of memories here, you're searching for answers. You're trying to find closure on this very traumatic event that happened to you. You know, going, if I can just say this, you know, going back to, you know, when they discovered us where we were,

unbeknownst to me, we were on the backside of the Newell Lake Reservoir Dam, completely opposite where November. 5 was and when I plotted that on the entire journey on a map from November 1, November 5 to New Lake Reservoir Dam and back November 1 it's a Pythagorean triangle. It's really amazing. It really is. And you know, you're from from November 5 to where we were was about 11 miles. From November 5 to New Lake Reservoir was about 11 miles. And then from November from New Lake Reservoir to November 1 was about eight miles. And so it was, it's really, really a strange configuration. But what is it with water?

And I originally think standing out in that parking lot, when I went back with Discovery Plus, knowing what I know now, that craft or that object was over top of that reservoir. So we're talking, you know, originally over the nuclear installation and then, and then over water. Originally saw it over water, then a nuclear, then a nuclear site, and then and then dropped me off where the water was. You're so right, Mario. I mean, so many of these cases happen over bodies of water.

I've got hundreds of them reports in my files. And my own personal UFO sighting happened over a lake. So I can definitely relate in many aspects. Well, okay. Wow. there's so much to unpack, but I do want to move to the missing time aspect. Now, you're talking 11 mile distance, hours of missing time. Now, we're not talking a couple minutes, like some people have claimed.

Five hours. Five hours. Incredible. You know, we should have arrived there right around 1 a.m. Okay. Our travel time wasn't about 15 minutes from 1230, you know. And so, you know, when Sergeant Garza got to me, I just looked to the east and the sun was rising. I mean, it was getting light.

And I was like, where am I? What happened? Let's talk about that. What happened? Now, many years passed, and I know you really wanted to know what happened in that gap of time. And like many who have had UFO experiences, you know, there's different ways to try to retrieve those memories, but a very big.

popular approach is hypnosis. Some people believe in it. Some think it's a complete bunk. But this is what you decided to do. I would love to know what compelled you to finally want to retrieve these memories. And who was the one to put you under hypnosis? If unless that's confidential. Yeah.

Yeah, I'd like to ask. I mean, I'd be happy to give it to you, but I prefer him tell me that would be okay. He's a Moufon investigator and very well known. But actually, Robert Hastings suggested him. And he came to my home and we did this. And I'd never been hypnotized before. And I'm thinking I even could be. But somehow he got me there.

And it was really a strange experience because some things did come to light that I had no idea of. And maybe it harbors some of the feelings that I've had every since then about certain things such as lights in my room or lights that I can see at night. I can't, I can't, I don't know what it is, but if there's some, a little LED light or some kind of small light coming off of something, I got to cover it. I can't. I don't like any small lights at all. I don't know where that comes from. But yeah, I had to deal with a few things, things that I saw. This is where I really got a good look at what these beings were and how they looked.

And also a couple of areas either in the craft or wherever I was that I was taken to. And some of the stuff that was done. and the most I don't say scariest but the most misunderstanding that I have is about being in something not knowing if I'm clothed or not

and that's a real strange feeling to not know if you got your clothes on and up but I was in like a like a gel of some kind that was black or to me it was black maybe it was just because I was in the dark I don't know

but it was a super thick kind of gelatin that was everywhere. I don't know if I was, my head was under it or what, but my body was submerged in it. And I just had a feeling of complete, uh, loneliness and dread. And I've never experienced that in my life. And, uh, it bothers me about it. It bothers me thinking about that today. The only other time that happened, I was on top of a mountain in, in Mexico on a motorcycle one time. And I was all by myself and I was above the, clouds and all of a sudden there's I think there's some kind of phobia about being completely alone with no other human contact so I probably wouldn't be a good astronaut I'd like to try but I don't

think I could but yeah yeah but that that fear made me think about that because it was uh and I felt a lot of pain in my right wrist something was being done in my right wrist but I think the most uh rememberable uh feeling was it uh I don't know if I was freaking out. I don't know if I don't really know exactly what my actions were. But one of these beings laid their hand on my shoulder right here. And it came, I don't know how long the fingers were, but it came all. It came down about right here on me.

I just felt this hand that was super light. It was, it didn't feel like a human hand. You know how that feels as I do, but it felt completely different. and I can feel that. I can put my handle here sometimes, and I swear I think I can feel it, you know. And I was going away from my vehicle and I was on my back. And when the door was closed on the pasture side of our vehicle,

and I felt as if I was about four foot in the air, but I poked my head up and I see U.S. security, U.S. Air Force on the side of our vehicle. And these are dark blue vehicles, the goal letters on the side of them. And when I did, that's when this hand touched me here. And I laid my head back down. And I kept hearing inside of me, not verbally, do not fear.

Do not fear. And that was something that was said throughout the entire experience. I don't know what else was said, but I remember that quite well. Do not fear. Well, and, you know, I'm going to be honest, Mario, in the past, I don't know, maybe eight, 10 years, the idea of hypnosis has been something that I have struggled with when it comes to achieving memories on these types of experiences. However, I have watched the available video of your hypnosis session. what has been made available, whether it's in documentary or whatnot. And it is clear, A, by the person conducting the hypnosis, they were not leading.

They were extremely, what's the word, caring of the state you were in, which was clearly traumatic. You can tell in the hypnosis. and they weren't leading you at all. And to me, my gut reaction is you were completely genuine in what you were remembering and feeling. So that being said, I mean, the fact that these are the memories that came forward of these beings, of these sort of telepathic messages you are given, how do you deal with that? I'm just going to ask straight up, like, how do you wrestle with the notion that within that missing time at this military installation and this event, that this, what we're staring at right now, these images of these beings, might have been the cause of all of this? How do you cope with that every day?

It never goes away. I'll tell you that right now. There's no time when I'm not looking up. I get up really early for work. And I just watch the skies and living right here on the East Coast, you know, you see a few things every now and in, but it just never goes away. That feeling, my shoulder, the do not fear. I mean, literally, when I stood on November, stood at November 5 when I was there with discovery, it broke me completely down, man. I was under the impression that at any moment, all of a sudden they could just materialize right there on top of that site again.

And now there's a cattle processing facility built on top of November 5. When the government, when they mothball the whole area, they left the fences up, and which is the sites were built upward, so no water or anything would collect on. And so the ranchers used that property because the property was leased, you know, where these missile sites are located for 99 years.

And so I guess they gave, gave it to the ranchers at that time, but they, this guy chose to build on top of it. And, but that, I could, I have no words for that. It's, uh, there's, we just don't, we just can't comprehend that yet. I don't care, you know, what the military's doing or what we may have in crash retrievals or any kind of technology. We have the normal, the normal human being to confront something like this. And I had a weapon, I knew. I had no intention of bearing that weapon.

I don't even think I could, I don't even think I could pull a trigger. That's how incapacitated you literally are for your very being, your very survival of what's happening to you, because it's completely out of your realm of all possibilities, something that you, people we can say, oh, I'd go right up and I'd knock on the door. Yeah, you'd probably crawl out.

out of your skin and go the other way like a jellyfish. I mean, there's just no way around it. You know, the technology gap is just something that we're not even prepared for yet. And I do wrestle with it quite a bit. And, you know, that's been 44 years ago, 43, 44 years ago now. And it never goes away. It's as clear today as it was then when it occurred. I just wish I could find Michael Johnson, you know.

Yeah. Hey, we're going to keep trying. You know, the more interviews he do, the more this gets out there. Hopefully, he, like many others, will feel compelled to come forward. I can't tell you how many military pilots, ground personnel, intelligence officers have come forward to me, you know, just a civilian to tell their stories after hearing stories like yours or Jeremy McGowan or the Tick-Tac witness. Oh, yeah. It's crazy. Sorry. Go ahead. We had, no, we had, when I first arrived out there, you know, people even say, you know, the other security policemen who say, yeah, a missile feels really strange, you know, because you have missile sites sitting right outside the badlands down to our wall, South Dakota. So as I said, again, these sites, you know, are strung from the badlands in ball all the way up to the Wyoming border.

And then the other other sites take over from that point, you know. and I was told of an incident that happened with two security policemen that were located something like three miles apart. They were missing overnight. Their vehicle was in one place. Them and their clothing were completely separated and they were sitting in a field out on a prairie, completely separate from each other and their weapons and everything else completely separated from each other and just strown about. And that's how they were recovered. I don't know what happened to them, but I know neither of them ever came back to the missile field again.

So they have a strange, strange thing, you know, and if I may further, when I got that assignment, well, I should back up a little bit. After it was all said and done and a little bit of time passed, I got promoted to an NCO. I got orders about nine months later, eight and a half, nine months later, to go to Korea, Oson Air Base. and I was married at the time. And anyway, I went to my commander, Colonel Spreck, and I said, current, I said, you know, I'm married. And I said, there's any way, you know,

can I go ahead and volunteer for two years and I could take my wife with me? Wouldn't let me do that. And that was, that should have been allowed. That was not asking anything out of place or anything like that. That was a normal thing. if you received a remote and that was you could take your spouse with you or your family with you

but you extended for an additional year well i was told i couldn't do that and um so i ended up having to go alone which which it's okay i had a great time there it was really good but just that it's funny how they just they can change or they can do whatever it takes is separate two people that have that have been through some experience like this together. And that's what happened, Michael Johnson, and can't find him to this day. It was something else I wanted to tell you, too, that I'm missing right now.

As the Krispy Chicken Sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy.

Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4. Quiet. No. Krispy, saucy, and $4? Very. Only at 711.

Valley through 62326, participating stores only while supplies last the app for full terms. Oh, yeah, no worries. Maybe something will strike your memory here. Yeah, yeah. I've got, Mario, two last questions for you personally, and then I've got some listener questions, if that's okay with you. You've been here.

I know what? Let me, I just came back. Oh, yeah. When I got hypnotized. Yeah. you know, talking about, you know, I know your beliefs, what you're talking about, how you had problems for some of them and not with others, but that put me in AFIB. Really? Yeah.

And I'd never had any kind of problems whatsoever before, and I've been in it twice since that time. Well, one other time since that time. But I knew for some reason there's a barrier that you have to break. And that's the only way I can describe it. there's something about telling these things and especially under hypnosis because you're not completely asleep but you're not awake either it's that area in between to where dreams make sense i guess uh i don't know that's the way to say it but i knew divulging or talking about it It upset me so much internally.

I didn't even know at a time, but a week later, I was in a cardiologist's office and I was in AFP. But I felt it then because I was just, I couldn't, I wanted to talk and I couldn't talk, wanted to talk and I couldn't talk, wanted to talk, wanted to talk, couldn't talk. And then I did talk. And then when I did it, I kind of, I guess I released whatever, and then it, it bothered my heart. Wow. Yeah, clearly. Clearly, there was something connected to. hear and physically that this event just, oh man, talk about physiological effects.

It's troubling to say the least. Well, I hope everything is okay. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, okay. Well, oh, man, that's pretty heavy. Well, to kind of, I guess, wrap up my personal questions on this event, Mario. Why? That's always my question for people. Why do you think this event happened? I mean, it seemed to start as happenstance. This alarm is set off at the base, and you see this object over the nuclear site, and then you have these retrieved memories of what possibly may have happened during the missing time. Why, what was the motivation behind this entire? event if you had to venture a guess. I know there's never concrete answers with any of this,

but I don't think this happened to you. I honestly believe that Robert Hastings said it the best. He said, they didn't contact you. You contacted them. And they followed up on that. I see. They knew what missile site. They knew that missile site was there and it was connected to that launch control facility. I thoroughly believe that. So they went out there and set it off and I dangling sure how to respond to it. And they knew I was there. I mean, I just, I felt that. And how else can I say it?

But I sincerely felt that when I put that flashlight over to top of that truck and flashed the same sequence of lights at them or a mag light to that bright object that just looked like the sun sitting there. One thing further, I must add that when I went out there for discovery again, as we were filming, you know, people are curious there and they ride by, you know, on this dirt road, Ormond Road looked like an interstate that day. There was about 20 of us there doing the filming. And these two guys showed up.

And one was on a four-wheeler. And the other was in an enclosed kind of four-wheeler. And they were landowners. And one of them, his father, I've got their names. His father was a state trooper. at the time when this happened in 77. And he came up because they stayed over when we completed. He stayed over as at the other guy and said,

you were the guy that that happened to in 70th and said, yes, sir. And he goes, my father was a state trooper. He said, and I remember the call at 2 o'clock in the morning to come look for you guys. And I said, what? I mean, this totally blindsided me. And the people that were, Rich Emberlin that was with me, he was my host and he's really good guy at this. He just knows the questions to ask and how to get them out. And anyway, this fella, I think his name is Earl.

And not laughing at it because I mean, this guy is a rancher in probably 80,000 acres out there or something like that. But anyway, he said he was quite young and his dad, his day trooper, received a call at 2 o'clock in the morning to come look for two security policemen that, that have gone missing at November 5 missile site on Ormond Road. And his reply that he remembered was his father said, well, why are you going to ask me to go look for him? Those guys are quite way better than I am, which we were. But he did follow up on that, and he did come out to look for us to know of Bay.

And then the other fellow that was there, he was a deputy sheriff in Sturgis, and they sent two patrols. Now, all this was. us on requests from Central Security Control back at Ellsworth Air Force Base to send state law enforcement looking for us as well as our own people. So that's another, you know, I had three backup alert teams to locate us, which I finally did, made contact. And then I didn't know this, but there were three law enforcement teams, you know,

two from Sturgis and one state trooper looking for us. But that night, now, The state trooper, he said his dad said he saw something in the air. And he didn't say what it was. He said his dad just said he saw something large in the air, large in the air. So that was completely unknown to me all these years that there was anybody else even looking for us. So a couple of times I've gone on like there's a Newell South Dakota site, you know, for the city. And I've asked if anybody remembers 1977 if anything was seen in the month of November, because I don't know the exact day, but I know it's just two weeks before Thanksgiving. That's why I know it was

November and November. But I hadn't really got any replies back. I got several people watch the programs and said, wow, you know, I've heard of this out here, but never, never knew it. But anyway, I just found that to be really kind of cool that these guys came forward. So we do, we do have their names. So I don't know if we ever going to go back out there and then maybe do a round table or something like that with them. But I would sure like to. I would sure like to. I'd like to find out, you know, what they knew or what they were told is. What eludes us back during all this time is that being an airman or an NCO, you know, you're not like the guys that were underground in a launch control facility,

which are watching, you know, the alarm panels, you know, you're 70 feet under the ground. We're the guys that are actually out there responding to what you sent us to based on the alarm at that facility. So, you know, we don't have. the same, I should say the, we don't get the same recognition or the follow-up of paperwork that you can gather from individuals who saw any of this because they get it all. I got nothing, nothing. Anything back, nothing. My medical records don't show anything. I mean, it's just amazing to how little and how much they can literally do away with if they so want to. And, you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

anything. But in this instance, you know, I really see how my buddy was shipped off somewhere else, never saw him again. I get sent to a base. I'm not allowed to take the two-year option, you know, completely separated from everything that I know and care for, gone. And that's the way they do you. And you got to stay quiet if you want to keep a clearance. You come forward to any of this. And during this time in 77, Linda Molden-Mal was working for that channel in Denver, Colorado, and she was investigating cattle mutilations, at which my partner and I, Mark Wade and I, we saw two. And my vet in Rapid City said he had been to one and did an examination and couldn't believe it.

And we just started talking about it one day in Rapid City. So something's going on out there. But yet so much of it is hushed up. Now, these officers, you know, they have a paper trail. because when you shut down a missile site, or the other thing is they're not always shut down either. We were dispatched several times, not just in November,

but other facilities, Echo, Oscar, hotel, other sites that I worked at to where a site would just arbitrarily start a sequence to launch. So the procedure there was to drive your F-154 truck out there with your partner, put it up on top of the blast door, facing the same direction.

as the cow trail or the cattle rails where it's going to blow off, put it in neutral and get off the site by one mile. And if it launches, the hopes are the blast door blows out from underneath it, the vehicle falls down on the rocket, and it upsets a gyro, and it just goes off and crashes. Wow. There's not always a sequence of events it's going to launch. Not always that to shut down.

Sometimes it's sequences to launch also, and then it's stopped. some waves somehow external stopped. Yeah, which is so much more alarming when you're. They're literally playing. They're playing with us, you know. And the whole thing, I got to ask a question about somebody on Netflix here just a few weeks ago. What did I think?

What were they looking for? Why do they come to these missile sites? You know, you know what Nikola Tesla did with electricity? We're just coming to grips with today. There's a lot more about electricity that we don't know, especially on the big generator we're sitting on right now under our feet all of us there are certain ways i guess that you can split an atom and maybe there's more ways than what we know of or have ever learned

and i think they perhaps sequence or see our abilities to do that even though even though it's weaponized there are other ways that they're waiting for us or either monitoring us that we don't find different ways to split that Adam or new elements to add with it or whatever. I don't want to be incorrect speaking about it, but that's what I feel. Yeah. And, you know, we're getting closer to, you know, nuclear fusion. I think it was just a few weeks ago that they discovered that they're able to finally do it.

Very, very small amounts, but we're getting there. So, you know, while these things, these ideas of free energy are hopefully going to benefit mankind. There's always the antithesis of that as well. And, you know, again, like these nuclear sites, what you were doing out there is a necessary line of defense, but it can easily be flipped on the offense as well. Yes, you can. So it's, it's troubling when these, when these instances, these incidents, I should say, are happening at a rapid pace all over. I mean, we just had, And this is kind of my last question for you, Mario, before these couple listener questions. Robert Seles, another gentleman who worked at a nuclear site, had a now famous incident occur.

Just announced, yes, at Mastro, yes, is going to be speaking to Arrow, this new office within the Department of Defense. He's going to be giving testimony about his event that took place, which he's been waiting for decades, for someone to come to him and be. like, what happened? And, you know, recently at these congressional hearings on UFOs, Congresspeople asked the head of the UFO office, this new office, have you ever heard of the Melsstrom UFO event? And they had absolutely no idea what he was talking about, which was just, you know, that dumbfounded me and many people out there. But now, look, they're taking a proactive stance. They've reached out to Robert Sellers. They're going to talk to you. So my question for you is if given this opportunity, would you talk about your event in front of Congress or even

testify with Arrow, this new UFO office in the Pentagon? If given that opportunity, yeah, would you take it? And what would you tell them? Yeah, I'm one of the eight that was asked to do that. Really? Okay. I'm looking forward to it. And I'll answer anything, anything they ask, anything to that to the best of my ability. Wow, that's exciting. I did not know that they reached out to you. So that's going to be happening. Yes.

Okay. I don't know exactly the date, but I mean, I guess it's when they want to contact you. Yeah, you're on their schedule, right? Well, that's very exciting. I did not know that. It's good to hear they're finally reaching out to folks like you who have had these incidents and were told to keep quiet about them. I mean, there's even new language in the National Defense Authorization.

If you have had an experience, come forward. You know, there's no repercussion. We know you had cue clearances. We know you were told to be silent, but we want to know what happened. So, oh, man, I am wishing you all the best with that. I hope something. And maybe you'll even get some answers, you know. I hope so.

I don't know. They're pretty stingy about that. They want to know, but they don't want to give. Yeah. You know, in 50 years, you know, all this will go away because whatever's out there, they'll make themselves known when they feel it, you know, or if they come from our planet within, however it all works, I don't know. But we will know about them then.

It'll be completely different. Can we agree more. Yeah, we're on their timetable. Yes. Awesome. Well, I've got just a couple of listeners. questions if you're willing to stick around. Yeah, sure, sure.

Great, great, thanks, Mario. Well, Casey on Twitter asks, does Mario believe the government has any further or previous information on your incident? Do you think someone truly knows what happened there? Or at least, yeah? It's fully written and documented. I thoroughly believe that. And what I meant earlier by saying, you know,

officers are different than NCOs or airmen, is that for some reason they're more privy to documentation to be able to set up a line of not progression, but a line of informative information that they can get or gather or can get from their partners and so forth. Whereas we simply submitted our information or underwent an interrogation, really an interrogation, and then told never to speak of it again and sign an in the non-disclosure agreement, you know, or something similar to do that. Because, I mean, you know, when they threaten you, you know, we, you know, we can take your rank away. You can't divulge these secrets.

You can't talk about it. You know, nobody in your family can know about this. It's really quite scary. I mean, it really is. I mean, you know, especially if you're a young airman, young NCO and you've got a family and you're saying, well, what's my life? if I leave this, you can't, you can't discuss it. You can't do anything about it. And it's very hard to gather that they've worked. And that's, that's been something that's really, really bothered me. I mean, from the very beginning of being able to run these people down

and say, can you write me something? Can you do this? Well, they won't do that. Right. Right. I get it. Yeah. Even DOE, when I, when I first went to work for DOE in 83, I guess it was 84 because it took eight months from my clearance. Now, I had never had any infraction whatsoever with law enforcement or anything like that ever. Still don't. But it still took eight months for my clearance. And I sat in front of a board three times. They didn't specifically say this, but whatever happened to you in the Air Force when this took place or that took place.

because I mean they literally if I'd have started talking about it then I'd have divulge something through DOE I shouldn't have because I was still under under that oath you know as is compared to what Department of Energy does even though as a subcontractor still you can't to keep your clearance you just couldn't talk about that because I mean I've been in Los Alamos Sandia Oak Ridge I've been to quite a few places I saw one of those coal fusion tests in 80. No, 87, I think. Oh, wow. 87, 88. Yeah, I was at S4 there in Los Alamos, the Advanced Nuclear Research Center and saw a mercenium, well, said, element 114, 115 burst in Akiva. Unbelievable. Yep.

We could go down a long road with Bob Lazard in Area 51, but we'll save that for our next year. Yeah, I love to. Well, this question came in, actually. this was a super chat by our good friend James Craig. Thank you so much, James, for the super chat here. He asks, does Mario think the nature of this event was nuts and bolts, atmospheric phenomenon, or paranormal psychological?

Yeah, what do you make of the whole event? Do you believe all of this physically happened to you in the reality as we know it, Mario? Yeah, however you want to dissect that question. Yeah, just like you're going to the store and on the way to the store, something happens. And then all of a sudden you're not at this door here somewhere you didn't even intend on being. And then you just have to come to grips with what's left.

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. I couldn't put it better myself. Here's one. Christopher on Facebook asks, did you have any synchronicities occur before or after this event? I mean, there's a couple you brought up. I mean, just there knowing you went back to the site for the TV show and you found people

who had actually responded to your emergency call to come look for you guys. That's a synchronicity if I've ever heard one. But yeah, anything else really stick out. I became so interested in pyramids and archaeology that I can't even describe that. Anything of the pyramid structure, I had to find out about it. It's measurements. It's mathematical designs. I don't know why, and I don't know how that happens,

but I went to the movie Close Encounters of Third Kind with my wife. Excuse me. And that part where Rorynearie's sitting in front of the mailboxes with a flashlight in his mouth, and the object is come, I guess, stops directly above his vehicle and shines a light down and illuminates the whole thing. And that whole scene, when I saw that, I literally got. got up and had to leave the theater. I couldn't take it. I mean, that had just happened to me. Literally had just happened. Almost the same thing, but I was with a partner in armed. And yeah, so I'd say those synchronicities, you know, is pyramids. I don't know what it is even today.

But really, I'm just kind of like an amateur archaeologist, but I have learned so much about these structures. and they're not what we've been told they are. And I don't know what else to say about that. But yeah, there are definite things that influence my mind in a certain way. But these pyramid structures have really changed me in a lot of ways, just learning about them. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. That's a whole avenue you can go down.

Last listener question here for you, Mario. Stephen on Twitter asks, have you had any other encounters or communications with whatever you think you encountered that night? If so, how and what? No, other than dreams, I keep a dream log, but I dream in color. I can smell in my dreams. And I've had some very strange. And sometimes unnerving dreams. They're not nightmares.

I mean, where it makes me wake up, it's just something that I see and I don't quite understand. But I guess dreams mean something. I don't know what. But, yeah, I guess dreams would be the right answer for that. Just really, really unbelievable dreams. Interesting. Hey, you know, and a lot of this people believe happens in the realm of the subconscious as well. So subconscious, excuse me.

So yeah, who knows? It could be another way for them to communicate even. I will expand on one thing in 20, if I can, in 2017, is in December, I think it was December 19th or something like that. In 2017, I work shift work at the time, and I have a back room back here that I keep. So anyway, I can sleep there, not interfere or bother anybody else in the house. But anyway, it was about 10 after 4. I wake up at these certain times, 11, 313, 4, 10, 411. Just really, I try to keep a little running tab on that.

But anyway, I woke up at 10 after 4 on this morning with all these alarms going off. but I didn't just wake up and sit up in my bed. I opened my eyes and I was standing next to the foot of my bed. And I was looking at the north wall in this bedroom. And there was a big black hole in the middle of that, in that wall about six or seven feet in diameter. And as I woke up to it, of course, it was gone. So I don't know if I was dreaming it or what happened,

but all of a sudden I hear all these alarms going off and it was in my home. And it was low voltage alarms like with your stove, your oven, your refrigerator. I didn't know. Microwaves got one. Anything that's electronic has a low voltage alarm. And I didn't even know those existed. And the lights were flickering.

And they were, my son was home. And he gets up and he goes, Dad, what's going on? And I was in kind of shock. I said, I don't know, son. What's happened? I said, the lights won't work. I mean, they were working, but they were extremely low,

just like they were being powered by a six-fold battery. or something. And I said, the only thing I knew to do, I said, well, I'll just have to wait eight o'clock this morning. I'll call it George Power. So I just went back to bed and thought how strange all that was. And I knew what that hole was in my wall. And so I wake up, my son's already up. And he goes, Dad, he said, Georgia Power is out here. And I said, what? He said, yeah, Georgia Power's out here. And I said, you're kidding me. I said, I didn't call them. So I threw on some close real quick and out the door I went and I went out in my front yard and I live on a little bit more than an acre here. And they were out next to the street. And I introduced myself and the supervisor, he goes,

this is your home? I said, yes, sir. He goes, we can't figure out what happened. I said, what do you mean? I said, I said, he goes, hey, you lost the leg of power to your house. And I didn't really know what that meant. And I said, well, how many of the, I said, the whole neighborhood go out. He goes, oh, no, just you. and I said, what? And he said, yeah, he says, it lit up our board downtown as a power surge and then nothing. And then we see, you lost the leg. I said, what does that even mean? You know, and so he goes, come on, I'll show you.

So he takes me to where the meter is and outside my garage on a little deck there. And they had this battery type transformer thing. set up on a on a cart and they had it plugged had it wired into my to my to my meter so i could have three legs of power you know restoring power to the house fully and he goes yeah we'll come out here and put a new line in next week or so it took a bit longer than that but i got pictures and so forth of it and i said well what makes this happen he says we don't know he says it's just it's a strange thing it's never happened here before and i said yeah i can't i don't know either and and anyway i went on about my business

and didn't think much more about it. And then about two weeks later, I was out of my front yard. I think I was cutting the grass and one of the boys from up the street, he came by and goes, hey, Mr. Woods, how you doing? I pulled off my respirator and I say, man, I'm all right. How about you? And he goes, what was that light in your backyard a few weeks ago, Mr. Woods?

I said, what are you talking about? He goes, well, I left for work at four o'clock in the morning. He said, it was lit up like it was a sun in your backyard. And I said, what? I said, there's two outdoor lights above the roof line in that room. And that's all there are. There's two lights, floodlights. And he goes, oh, no.

He goes, it looked like a stadium back there. And I, because I live, I have about 200 trees in the backyard. And he goes, it looked like a stadium in your backyard. And I said, you got to be kidding me. I said, come on, man. I said, it would be joking. He says, no, I'm serious. And that's all we really said about it.

And it made me wonder the entire, you know, other than that. And, but anyway, we lost a leg of power to the house and it's highly unusual. And then that happened. And then he came by and said that. And the guy George Power said, this never happens. We don't even know how it happened here. So anyway, that was in 2017. And I let Robert Hastings know about that immediately, you know.

I mean, I don't know. You just never know. these beings can once they they can identify you they know everybody i think there's nobody they can get away from them not really but they monitor you know yeah right and you know again it's like when you have that kind of what a lot of people call the initiation experience which you know i know you had a sighting as a child as well but a lot of the time once a lot of the times once you have these encounters, you know, it does open a door and invites a lot more weirdness into your life. What kind of door is that? Is it? What, what is that? There's a lot of people that haven't seen

anything ever. So I totally understand the questioning, you know, and I don't know how else to address that other than that will. Perhaps you will. When at your time, you're supposed to see it, I guess, you know? Until it's you. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Mario, you've been very generous with your time. I'm going to, I'm going to let you go here in just a moment. But, you know, again, a lot of people, I'm sure, are going to feel empowered after hearing you tell this story, especially military personnel, to come forward. So my last question for you, of course, is there anywhere people can reach out to you if they'd like? Would you like them to do it through me or is there some sort of email if there's anything you're willing to share?

Usually, you know, you can email me. It's M. Woods 175 at gmail.com. I don't know. I'll answer it if I can. And, you know, I try to get to everybody, you know, the best I can. Sometimes there's too many, but that's, I still, I still try to answer them, you know. And a lot of people comment on the YouTube portion. I don't know about all this yet on all these platforms.

And I guess I should do better than what I'm doing. And maybe I could use your help or I wish I knew somebody that would sit down and help me because I honestly don't know it all, you know. I mean, I go on YouTube, I subscribe to your channel, and, you know, I don't know how else, how I can do that on my own. I don't know if I want to, but, you know, any comments that they put place on, you know,

after this interview, I'll be happy to answer in any way, best of my ability. So just throw that out there. Or they can email me, you know, I don't mind that a bit. Great. Thank you. And I'll go ahead and put your email address. Sure. Show notes here as well.

Yeah. And I'd be more than happy to help you out to getting anything. That's great. I've got the equipment, you know, pretty much that. You know, I don't have a lot of it. I got, I got good enough stuff, you know. Absolutely. We're working off the same cameras as we talked about.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Mario, this is, thank you. Thank you for sharing this. Thank you for your service. I know your search for answers only just begun, but I think it's very telling that you're going to be speaking in front of, of the Pentagon UFO office, hopefully soon, about your event.

And maybe that'll put one more puzzle piece into place. So I'm going to wish you the best with that. And yeah, I'll say good night here. And once again, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies. Anytime, Ryan. Thank you very much for having me again. My absolute pleasure. All right.

Have a great night. All right. See you a little later. Bye bye. Bye bye. And as always, keep your feet on the ground. but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Have a great night.

I'm Ryan Spring. And I'm Andrew Sanford. And we love pro wrestling. It's the best. Headlocks, elbow drops. Scathing promos and chair shots. We just can't get enough of it. So we started a podcast.

You can join Ryan and me as we dig into the ins and outs of pro wrestling like the rabid fans we are. We've got interviews, previews, predictions, news, And so much more. And we're going to cover all of it on Somewhere in the Ring. Oh, yeah. Is that supposed to be macho, man? No, no good.

We'll work on it. Join us every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts, for all new episodes. And we'll see you somewhere in the ring. Somewhere in the Ring is part of the E1 Podcast Network. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprag. Hey guys, Ryan here from somewhere in the skies. And today we have a very exciting interview for you guys.

You know them being featured on Unsolved Mysteries, the Paranormal Rangers. But if you're not familiar with their work, you're going to learn all about it tonight. We have Jonathan Dover and Stanley Milford on the show. So let's not waste any more time. Let's bring them in. We're going to hear the origin of how the Navajo Parasurans

and normal rangers started, the investigations that they conducted and where things stand now. So, without further ado, we have Jonathan Dover, Stanley Milford. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Now, like I mentioned, a lot of people probably saw you guys on Unsolved Mysteries. However, a little bit of trivia. My first ever UFO conference I attended was the International UFO Congress, where I was volunteering

backstage, you know, I would do whatever they needed me to do, sweep the floors, get coffee, you know, work the soundboard. And I specifically remember I was one of the individuals that put the microphones on you guys for your talk there. And I was blown away. I, you know, when I had heard that you were basically the real. Life X-Files, I couldn't get enough. And I've been following your work ever since. So this is a true honor to have you guys on here today. Nice to be here. Yeah, it's been a little bit of a travel

with COVID and everything, but we came out on the other side. Okay. We're all here. We're all here. And we've got a lot of stories to hear from you guys. So I'm excited. Well, before, we get to, obviously, everyone wants to hear about some of the investigations that you guys have been on. But I always like to get the origin story, of course. So if you guys don't mind, maybe Jonathan, we'll start with you. How you both became Navajo Rangers. How did that opportunity arise before we even get to the special part of those investigations? What made you want to become a Navajo Ranger?

Well, 1980, I actually was looking for a job. And at the chapter house, they said, there's an opening for a Navajo ranger, had no idea what it was. I ended up applying. They gave me a ride to Window Rock, which is about 130 miles away from where I live. and I walked in and the director there asked me one question. How would you feel if somebody threatened your life? And I told him, well, I'll cut their ears off at 200 yards of the 300 Savage. And they said, you're hired.

Next thing I know I was in the police academy for six months. And so I kind of blundered into it and found out I was pretty good at it. And here I am today, retired. Wow. That's quite an interview, if you ask me. That's pretty interesting. Stan, how about you? What made you want to become a Navajo Ranger?

I think growing up in a rural setting in Oklahoma, me and a cousin of mine that was a couple of years older than me, at the age of like 10 years old, nine years old, riding dirt bikes, motocross bikes, and playing cops and robbers and watching really too much

Starsky and Hutch and Swat. And so I was at the University of Arizona when I was contacted by the director of Parks and Recreation, an individual named Clarence. Gorman and he asked if I would come back and attend the police academy and that's what I chose to do. So I became a Navajo Ranger. Interesting. Okay.

And then, you know, eventually you guys would both meet and start working together. However, I'd love if you could just paint a picture for us. Now, I know the Navajo territory that you covered as Rangers was vast, but what exactly is a Navajo Ranger for those who may not be aware of what the duties actually entail, you know, the areas that you covered, either one of you, if you want to cover that, what exactly is a Navajo Ranger and what areas did you cover? Okay, so a Navajo Ranger is a big. very specialized law enforcement officer. What he does is he handles both renewable and non-renewable

resource law enforcement. So we were trained and operated in the areas of fish and wildlife, forestry, parks and recreation areas. We would enforce the laws of those areas. Minerals, mines, water resources. We were also tasked with handling search and rescue and technical rescue situations. And then we also did police work on the side when there were no police officers present or able to respond to something or if there was a life or death emergency. Interesting. All right, Stan, did you want to add anything to that? I thought it was a pretty good summation. Well, you know, what we did involving the paranormal was under a section called special projects.

But within that special projects unit, there was a lot of other responsibilities such as special weapons and tactics call out, SWAT call out. So he and I did that. I worked on a drug and gang task force under that section. We did dignitary protection. We took care of some really high profile and sensitive investigations and assignments and stuff like that. So it wasn't just what people perceive as just a paranormal section. It wasn't. It was kind of a broad spectrum of enforcement.

Right. I remember hearing you guys elaborate, you know, that the paranormal was maybe 1% of the work that you did out there. Obviously, for audiences like ours, of course, those are the investigations they want to hear about. But let's dive into that, I guess, that 1%. What was it like for both of you personally when you first got assigned to these cases? I mean, I can't imagine, you know, it was just another day at the office when you were told that you were now going to be going out in investigating ghosts, cryptids, UFOs, skinwalkers, things like this. Jonathan, maybe we'll start with you. What was it like that first day when you learned you'd be working on these quote unquote special?

investigations. Well, the director had a, the chief ranger had a meeting with the entire department. And basically, there had been an investigation. And if you know these guys that went out there, two rookies, they were regular jokers. They would laugh and joke all day long and just have these little private jokes about, you know, around them. them. And they went up to a lady that lost one of her sheep to a big foot. And of course, they were laughing, joking, you know, horsing around. And she took an offense to that and thought they were laughing at her and chewed out our chief ranger. So he called everyone in, basically told us that these cases would be investigated professionally. And there would be reports written. Turned to me

in Stan, and I like to tell everybody that we were voluntled. We didn't request it. We didn't raise our hands or anything. And suddenly, we were told that we would be getting the major cases involving paranormal stuff. And we just looked at each other and like, you know, wow. They didn't see that coming. Stan, what was it like for you,

personally when you learned that you now would be investigating these quote unquote special paranormal cases? One of the things was is that up until the point that we were assigned to attend this department-wide meeting, it was just a normal day. It was just an everyday, a regular day. But we did have. But we did have. have a department-wide staff meeting. We were called into that meeting. And so heading up that special projects unit, one of the main reasons we were a part of that was that I think the chief ranger at that time, we worked really close with him.

We were probably the closest personnel working directly with the chief. and we had developed this relationship where he knew he could give me and John assignments. And regardless of how technical they were or how difficult they might be, that he could rely on me and John to handle it regardless. And that John and I think with him developed a reputation of dependability and reliability and professionalism. So when we got assigned, it wasn't like John and I were, oh, they're raising our hands and saying, oh, we want to run this or whatever.

That wasn't the case. It was simply that Chief had this assignment, and he looked at us, and said you two are the ones that are going to manage these assignments or these cases, investigations. So at first, you know, it was kind of like all of the other assignments we had received. It's, it's, yes, sir, and you did what you were told, you know. But I don't think that we, you know, yes, John and I had had. our own personal experiences with what would be termed as supernatural or paranormal,

even prior to those assignments. And even actually, there was cases we did that prior to that, that would have fallen under what would be termed as paranormal or supernatural. But so I think that kind of, it facilitated us. to get right into that and get busy investigating these things and stuff. Right. For me, it was just one of those, another assignment, you know, that we're given. So we were going to do it regardless of the nature of what it was.

Right. That was actually going to be one of my questions for you guys. Were there ever instances where, you know, you went into a case to investigate and that you then it turned into a paranormal case. Like it wasn't, you weren't sent out to investigate someone who had a big foot sighting, but, you know, boom, all of a sudden you're in the middle of, you know, a quote unquote conventional investigation of something else. And I don't know, a UFO zipped by or a, you know,

a paranormal event occurred. Did that ever happen to you guys? things like that would happen all the time. There are many, many cases where their paranormal would kind of peek at you and you'd understand that, hey, there's something more going on here. And for the most part, you just kind of ignored it or let it be on the side, did your report, tried to maintain as many factual stuff as you could within the report. And it was just kind of, you know, it was understood.

It was there. Interesting. So I guess let's start from the beginning when these cases were assigned to you guys. Do you remember the very first, quote unquote, paranormal case that you, were assigned to any memories of what that was and how it kind of led you down the path? We got a case initially. What had happened was that this is one of the ones that showed up on the Netflix series. We had at least 30 people have sightings of Bigfoot right around that Bloomfield,

between Bloomfield and Shiprock along the San Juan River. and they were frightened. And the community had gone to the local police department and says, hey, we've got all these sightings of this Bigfoot. And the lieutenant came out and in front of everybody just laughed at them and went, ha, ha, ha, ha, I wonder how much these people have had to drink. And so they basically tried. turned their backs on the police and said, you know, we don't, we want nothing to do with you guys.

And they contacted the Rangers. We sent a six-man crew up there and spent three days and two nights, thoroughly investigating the case, getting statements from people along the river and collecting hair evidence, foot track evidence, and things like that. and did determine that there was something going on. Interesting. Stan, do you have anything to add to that first Bigfoot investigation you guys went on?

And, you know, was this something that you were familiar with before getting involved? And, yeah, how'd you come out on the other side thinking about Bigfoot after that? That assignment that you're talking about that he's referring to up along the San Juan River,

it really was the first where we're involving a number of rangers assigned to an actual investigation that was obviously within that realm of paranormal investigation. I don't think I actually witnessed what people referred to. as a Bigfoot until later on in some other investigations where I actually witnessed what it is people referred to as a Bigfoot twice. I'm having an experience where I've seen this either entity or this, you know, whether it's a creature or, but anyway. So prior to that, you know, to that particular assignment.

I really didn't have a whole lot of experience in that. But it did involve an entire team and it involved the planning for that assignment and the equipment that would be needed. And really

put my eyes to to how, really how involved the entire community in that area was actually having witnessed this thing that people referred to as Bigfoot. So this is primarily a UFO podcast. So I know our listeners are going to want to hear from you guys about that. So, John, let's start with you. What is your most memorable, I guess, investigation that involved the mysteries in our skies?

Well, this, again, would be one of our cases. We refer to it as the old man case. In this incidence, an elderly man was home by himself. This is the short version. There's other versions of it that go into much more. more detail. But we had this situation where this old man, his wife and daughter had gone to Phoenix. And so he was home by himself. It's midnight or one in the morning. And he sees a light. And it looks like, to him, it looked like a car coming up the road. It turned out that it was

this craft that was flying, circled his house and then landed up on the ridge behind him. he sees something come out of the craft out of the bottom and go down to a house maybe a half mile away go back up to the craft and then come back toward his house his dog starts barking it's a little blue healer pup and you know it goes running out there barking and he hears it you know yelp and it comes running back to the house and curls up by the front doorstep and just lays there. Doesn't move. So now he's getting nervous and he goes inside. He's looking out the window on the seas what could be described as a gray alien,

four of them that have these little flashlights in their hands. He calls it flashlight, but it has a collimated beam about an inch and diameter. and different color beams of light, red, blue, yellow, and green. And they're shining it around like they're looking for something. Out around his house, he has all these solar lights, and they seem to be very fascinated by these lights. And as they approach them and gather around the light, the light slowly dims and goes out.

They back up, they stand up again and back up, and the light comes back on again. And they would lean in again and the light would go out. This happened several times. Finally, he decides he's in Navajo. There's no word for alien. So he's saying, what are these little children doing around my house? He says they were wearing these white skin tight suits. It's either white or light gray.

And so he goes out to confront them. He says they had big heads and they had black eyes. And as he turns the corner around the backside of the house, he tripped on the step and fell, broke his flashlight. And as he looked up, these things were high-tailing it away. In later conversations, he describes them as, as being startled and having their hands up and waving them and then, you know, getting away. So they get back to the ship, they take off.

And he doesn't know what the result of that was. Later on, we found out a couple of weeks later that that little dog had died. we didn't know about it at the time. Otherwise, we could have had it necropsyed. And we did a full investigation there with a federal court interpreter doing simultaneous translation for us. That's a really interesting case, a close encounter of the third kind, I would say. And very dramatic, if you ask me. And what I appreciate is, you know, you guys aren't just out there taking witness testimony.

you're actually trying to find evidence, find proof of these things, which was, you know, shown in the Unsolved Mysteries episode of testing a car where a UFO hovered above it and things like that. So I found that really interesting. Stan, how about you in terms of UFO investigations? Anything really memorable stick out to you about UFO activity over the Navajo territory? One of the UFO experiences that John and I had, it hadn't started out as an actual paranormal-related case. It was a drowning. An individual had drowned somewhere in the San Juan River. And John and I had placed a boat in the water at Lake Powell and began traversing to the east in the San Juan River. and so we got so far and it was getting late in a day

we came to a debris field where we couldn't go any further for fear of damaging the prop on the boat and so we just pulled off we decided we would camp for the rest of the day and evening

and so we set up camp and that night really clear sky. We were laying on our cots and I noticed an object that was coming from the west headed in the east direction. And this particular object

was, it was kind of amber in color and it was a little bit bigger than what you normally see with common satellites. And the really unusual thing about this particular object was that it was making a zigzag pattern as it moved to the east. And so I got John's attention and we began watching it.

As it got almost right directly above us at about the 12 o'clock position, we noticed following in line behind it was two military craft. And it turned out, John was able to identify these as F-16. And he advised that they had their afterburners on, which meant that they were pursuing this in an accelerated way. But a little bit later, as we were watching this, all of a sudden, this zigzagging object, accelerated to the east and at a blinding speed.

I mean, we were able to see the edge of the horizon from where we were at. And this object went almost from the 12 noon position all the way to the horizon. You know, within like a second and a half, it was gone. And it was, we watched it disappeared. and it left the two F-16 fighters, you know, side-by-side trailing behind this, kind of like a child on a tricycle, because this thing, the capability and technology that would have been involved in this for this object to accelerate to, we guesstimate somewhere,

in the name of in the area of like 10,000 miles an hour and it was just unbelievable and it left me and John in awe of watching this thing what just played out right in front of us and

so again like you had said earlier we set out on an investigation that ended up ended up being something of a paranormal or UFO nature that, you know, we didn't, we, there was no expectation for that. It just happened right there in front of us and we were left in awe.

So, yeah. Well, preparedness is, you know, a word that I assume comes up a lot before you go into an investigation of any kind. And I'd love to touch on that with you guys before we move to some. some listener questions here. How do you mentally, physically, I guess even emotionally prepare to go into an investigation where you have no idea what's going to happen,

whether it's paranormal or not? Do you both have any personal routines or practices or anything to prepare you for these types of investigations? John, let's start with you. Well, for me, there's, you can have preconceived ideas. A great man once said that, can you look at a situation without naming it? Naming it, making it a word causes fear.

So you don't name it. You go in without a preconceived idea of what you're going to see or experience. And you go in with the idea that you're going to do the job. In my work, I was a licensed EMT as a uniformed officer. And I would see horrific injuries and amputations and people dead and actually dying. And I found out that if you stop and let that overtake you, you're no good to anybody. And so you just have to do the job and get to the point where you're going to be their best hope of survival.

And in the paranormal cases, you do something similar. You don't show that fear, you know, like you see on TV today, you see these guys, you know, oh, my God, oh, my God. And they start running around. and the panic overtakes them. We never did that. And, you know, we just went into it and said whatever happens will happen. I know Stan has had a personal experience with a Skinwalker. And I know you've actually been to Skinwalker Ranch.

So I'd love to get your opinion on that whole aspect of a lot of this phenomena. Is this something you've pursued in your own investigations? And what do you make of these areas, I guess, these condensed areas of high strangeness, whether it's Skinwalker Ranch or the areas that you and Stan investigated? What do you make of the entire Skinwalker phenomenon? Well, the Skinwalker phenomenon is basically worldwide. you have incidences of shape changers in Australia and Africa in Europe and Indonesia,

you know, just all over the whole world. Other Indian tribes have similar versions. And interestingly enough, a lot of them, the information is very consistent, you know, telling you that you shouldn't be in the dark whistling because it attracts these things. They show up as like the windigo, the rake. They can show up as different types of creatures. But they're all very similar in that a person can shape change. In our discussions of this and talking about it,

we've actually had military people show up with clipboards taking notes. And so now we give them a shout out because Indian tribes are not very trusting of the military. But we speculate that the government is interested in this idea because what if you had a soldier who could shape change into an animal and go behind enemy lines and create havoc factors? there. The one thing that I would caution people about is that in the case of, and I'm only speaking about the Navajo Skin Walker, they can actually be dangerous. They're not an avatar. They are not a spirit form of something sent out to do the bidding. They are real people that have basically learned how to do this. And they can poison you. and they can injure you rather severely or make you so sick that you won't be able to function for a year and a half, as in one case that we had.

So we caution people and even film crews that come out that if they want to go look for Skinwalkers, we're done. We're going to call it. And because we have seen what they can do. they can be killed also. That's one thing that we did find out over a period of time, and I've known it for a long time, that people have actually shot them, and some of them have died.

And in fact, in 1977, one was killed in Chinle. And, you know, somebody knocked on the door. The guy opened it up and got an axe in the head. The FBI arrested two individuals, and they said, well, in trial, they said, if it wasn't us, you know, we were designated by the community to go do this. And, you know, we did our job. If it wasn't us, it would have been somebody else. And they were actually acquitted in federal court of homicide. Wow. That's crazy. I, oh, that one left me speechless.

Wow. Well, I mean, what do you think, John, actually being on Skinwalker Ranch? I mean, you know, a lot of people are very critical of the work being done there. You know, they're being told not to dig and, you know, to not upset the land there to do their scientific investigation. and whatnot. Having been there, having sort of been at the center of all of that, what do you make of Skinwalker Ranch? And do you think they should continue to try to investigate there and figure out what's going on? The Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to every week. But if you would like to help

support the show, we have a very active Patreon page where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Well, there's definitely something going on there. There is high strangeness. There is an energy source that's showed itself. There's a frequency showing 1.6 gigahertz. And it's my understanding that this frequency is only used by NASA for communication with

spacecraft that we launch. So there's a lot going on. UFOs show up over there. Cryptids show up, Bigfoot shows up, you know. And we have areas on our. reservation here that are very, very similar that people avoid and, you know, stay away from. There's areas down in Sedona that they call them vortex, but they're very similar in energy profiles. And so we've seen a lot of the same things up here.

We just don't advertise it or talk about it. But there are a lot of them. Doolsey is another one on the Hickorya reservation. that has a lot of strangeness. So we think that there's these nodules, so to speak, all around the United States of places that are probably either inaccessible or avoided by a lot of people because of these strange things that go on. Skinwalker Ranch, the Nids team that was there prior under Bob Biggill,

the information that they gathered is still considered classified even today. And so the team that's up there now had to start, you know, all over from the ground up. And they were told by when the ranch was sold to them not to dig because they found out that if you started digging, things would happen. It would provoke a response. and they've seen that up at Skinwalker Ranch with Thomas being injured and having to go to the hospital. We saw Travis Taylor get injured when he stuck his head over a hole and got his face irradiated with irradiation. So there's lots of danger there. For me, it doesn't really bother me.

I go through my protection regimen before going there and, you know, every day afterwards, just to keep myself protected. I've been on the ranch, but I haven't been injured. And, you know, I'm happy with that. Yeah, fingers, fingers crossed it stays that way. Well, in terms of all of the cases, John, you've been. looked at throughout the years in in relation to the paranormal, supernatural, euphological, even. Do you have a favorite case or one that you continue to chase until today or most memorable,

all wrapped into one? Is there any case that truly personifies that for you? Well, there is a case, and it's a little bit out of the way, but I'll go ahead and tell it because there's a point to it. Okay. There was a lady that contacted our department. And she said that, well, she's what we classify in law enforcement as EDP, which is an emotionally disturbed person.

So they're having some issues mentally. And she had contacted the city police. the state police, the county, the Navajo police, everybody told her that, you know, we don't handle that or, you know. And what she was saying was that Skinwalkers were coming around her house and trying to drive her off her land. So she contacted our department and me and Stan says, okay, we'll go out there and meet with her. She had inherited this land from her mother who had passed away and had spent all her life. in different states. She was taking a whole regimen of drugs.

And so we started looking at this, and she showed us some little tiny bundles of feathers and leather that had been left out near her house and said that things were coming around scratching at the side of the house and things like that. We found tracks, and we started to track it. In tracking these tracks, and both me and Stan are very good trackers. We found at least six individuals that had come up from a trail behind her house.

And they had, you could see where they stood around in a little circle and talked with each other. What we determined was that these were local town drunks that had, she had a little hog on that had no windows and no door. And they were using this as a crash pad for themselves. And when she came to take over the property again, started living there, they tried to drive her out by imitating Skinwalker activity. And she was genuinely frightened. So as a result of that, we told her these are not skinwalkers. These are local drunks. They're trying to chase you away from your land.

And, you know, so it's not definitely not skinwalker activity, although they tried to make it look like it. We didn't hear anything more. She was very thankful. A month later, our dispatcher got a call. and this lady is on the line again, she is crying on the phone. And she said, thank you, thank you, thank you. I've gotten my house fixed up, and I'm living there, and I have no more issues going on.

And I just wanted to call you and thank you for, you know, for listening to me. And what me and Stan have found out is that it's about helping people that maybe nobody else wants to take a look at this issue. We had an old grandma up in Dulcy when we spoke up there, come up to us, and she had tears, you know, in her eyes, and she was explaining that as a little girl, she had orbs and UFOs come around her, and she had never told anybody in the family.

the kids, the grandkids, the great-grandkids all had their jaws down on the floor because nobody had ever heard her talk about this. And she thanked us for talking about these subjects and bringing it out because it actually helped her tell her story to her family. So it's really all about if we can to try to help people. Let's wrap up, actually. I've got two listener questions for you, if you don't mind. We have our first one here from Metal Matt. He's one of our Patreon subscribers. And he wants to know, do you and Stan have any plans of writing a book about your experiences?

Yeah, quick answer. Stan is currently working on his book and has a publisher and an agent and everything else. book is about one third away through, but it's 47 chapters. So there's a lot to write. And it's an uphill thing. I know

the vice president of Harper Collins publishing had contacted John and he showed that he was excited and very interested in publishing both John and my books.

And so When John let me know that, I did jump on that. John and I had already been writing to put together individual books going way back to when we were working as Rangers. I think once we really got into doing these kind of investigations, that it was interesting to us. I mean, and it still is today. where we a big part of what we do in the investigation is the fact that we're curious there's a curiosity and and wanting to learn more about the unknown and so when that opportunity presented itself for me you know after john let me know on it i jump right on it and and uh things did seem to roll really quickly with it. And so yeah,

there's a, we both will be, uh, working to get our books out. So. Awesome. Looking forward to that for sure. Um,

well, I guess, you know, kind of playing off of that, uh, Lisette over on YouTube wants to know. Uh, were there any cases that you guys covered on unsolved mysteries that

didn't actually make it onto the show that you wish? had or any cases that you wish they had actually covered. You know, I mean, what we got on the show was incredible. But any cases you really wish they had gone after or possibly got left on the editing floor, as they call it? I don't think in what we filmed there was anything that was left on the cutting room floor. I think everything that we set out and we actually filmed was included. The challenge is that for a given episode, there's only so much room to be able to fit things in.

But me and John, we've discussed this among ourselves in length. There's so many cases and events and incidents that that we've never even we've never even shared with the public to date. I mean, I have, I have incidents that involving

a doppelganger, um, uh, an incident where mass livestock were killed in an unusual manner. And, uh,

you know, so many different things. things. And I know John, John has the same. And so there's still so much more, and even personal experiences with the paranormal that's still going on to this very day. So there's so much more that we have to be able to bring to the surface and bring to the public. So, yeah. Interesting. John, did you want to add anything to that? Oh, boy, they said that when we finished filming, that they had enough actually for two episodes, but they could only put one episode down.

One of the things that we're very adamant about, because we had done shows with other production companies, and they says, oh, you know, we want to tell your story. and what happens is they kind of made it a mishmash of different stories all put together to make it sound more interesting. And we told this company that we weren't going to do that. If they would tell our story correctly, that we would work with them. And, you know, they did. I've got to hand it to them. They came out, you know, it was great.

They actually were very careful about making sure that every little detail was correct. And we were happy with the result that we saw. I think one of the things that we've made clear up front is that we're not going to fabricate things, you know, that didn't happen. we're not going to exaggerate or you know sensationalize

these cases that we're involved in I mean him and I were not against creating a work of fiction that would be based on some of these experiences I think there's there's room for that in a motion picture

or whatever but in what we're sharing either with our presentations or something like unsolved mysteries. You know, we're going to stick to what happened. And we've been very adamant about that. We're not going to, we're not going to.

John and I aren't these people that go in these investigations that are jumping and running. Oh my God. We don't do that. We don't do that and never have done that. And we've stuck to the fact that we are investigators. We were sworn at the time, you know, and we're not going to fabricate and make up things and lie about things, you know.

And I think that's probably one of the things that maybe sets us apart with some things that you see out there is that we were sworn officers and this was our assignment and we had a duty to help people and we still carried that part of it as far as

you know in the investigations we still do to this day not as law enforcement but we're trying to help people bottom line people that are people that want help and that there's nobody there to help them. So, yeah. Right. Well, yeah, that was going to be my last question. You know, I know you're both retired now from the Rangers. However, you know, you've made, you've made, I would imagine, very strong bonds with these people who've had highly anomalous experiences that you would go on to, you know, become a part of and investigate and find some closure. for these people. So that was going to be kind of my last question. Do the investigations continue?

And, you know, what is that like? You know, coming out on the other side, not having to speak for the rangers any longer, but speaking for yourselves on a lot of this stuff. Yeah, that's my long-winded way of asking, do the investigations continue? John, let's start with you. Well, the investigations have on a case-by-case basis continued. We do get requests, and unfortunately, we don't get paid for any of these. We're doing it on our own time, so to speak. And it can run into quite a bit of money, as you know, just gassing up your truck, you know, to get somewhere can cost a lot now.

So it's not that we don't want to do some of these things, it's that in some cases we just can't go and do them. People also ask us, and I need to put this in here, they ask us, how can I protect myself? And an alien con, I had a person asked me, you know, should I start smudging? Should I start using sage? and this was a non-Indian that was asking this from the audience.

And my answer to them was that go back into the history of your culture and find out what they did to ward off evil. And then use those things with intent, the intent of your mind that this is going to protect you. And make it your own. Don't just copy Native America. as to what they do. And I had a lot of Native Americans afterwards come up to me

and thank me for making that statement because a lot of people are just adopting or... Assimulating. Yeah, assimilating what natives do. And, you know, that it really... If you just go through the motions, it doesn't have anything to it. It relies on the intent of the...

person. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. Stan, do you have anything to add to that in terms of the continued investigations and kind of trying to continue to help these people after, you know, the initial events happened? I think one of the things is that that's a part of John, John's personality and my personality to help when people are in need. People are around a certain need. And so when it comes to the paranormal or supernatural, for the most part, you can't run to the local police department because you're going to end up getting turned away just as what John conveyed with some of the previous cases that happened on the Naval Reservation. And the unique thing with that is our chief at the time. was very adamant that you took an oath and you may not understand these cases, you may not believe in whatever it is that's being presented.

But you're going to be there to help people. That's what you signed on to do, to help people and protect people. And we did that. But that's also a part of John's personality and my personality. you know, for the most part, when people are experiencing, whether it's a Bigfoot case or a haunting case, or, you know, they're reaching out for help. And in our experience, most of those individuals, they're traumatized. They're going through some type of trauma. Whether it's a 10-year-old girl being chased by a Bigfoot, you know, after she dropped off.

you know, at the school bus stop or, you know, things like that. These individuals are traumatized. And, you know, whether it's an elderly woman that's, you know, being victimized and her property being taken by an entity or whatever, these people are needing help. But they're, in reality, there is no paranormal police. out there to try to come to the rescue. And I guess that's, in a sense, that's what John and I have tried to fulfill, is to be there for the people that need help. Anyway.

I love that. Yeah. Well, they were damn lucky to have you guys. I'll kind of leave it at that to have such empathetic individuals willing to work with experiencers, you know, because like you said, It's very hard. And people struggle with these things, no matter what they are. Aliens, ghosts, cryptids, you know, it's not easy.

It's becoming a little easier, I think, for people who've seen UFOs. I mean, UFOs seem to be in the mainstream now more than ever and widely accepted in some ways. But for the other stuff, I can imagine it's still very isolating and alienating to talk about these things. So, no, I, you know, from, I've seen a UFO, so I guess I'm kind of an experiencer. So I have to thank you guys for being open and willing to do stuff like that. But to kind of close things out here in terms of continuing contact in the desert, June 2nd through the 4th is going to be taking place. And you guys are going to be speaking at that. So would you mind giving us a little tease of maybe what you'll be talking about?

if you know yet when you'll be presenting anything like that, whichever one of you would like to take that. Go ahead, John. Okay, I'm looking at my brains here. On my phone, I have the, okay, we're going to be presenting a workshop first. And this will be June 2nd on Friday, 730 to 9.15 p.m.

at the resort there, the workshop is going to be called the paranormal rangers, the Native American approach and with a question and answer. And this is going to be a much more intimate conversation as to some of the cultural aspects behind what we do. And then we're going to sit down with the audience and be able to take questions and answers. The other one is going to be on Sunday, June 4 at 1035 to 1220. And this will be in the main auditorium. And it says the title is Mysterious Discoveries of the Paranormal Naval Rangers.

So this one will be our standard presentation with lots and lots of pictures to put up on the screen. Oh, cool. I'm definitely jealous I won't be able to make that but I've seen you guys present before it's quite a sight to behold and seeing the images from these investigations I think

just lend so much credence to them as well so guys definitely and make it to contact in the desert yes please stand there are a number of other events that both John and I are

participating in this year. Would you mind if he elaborates on some of those? Oh, absolutely. Please. Okay, back to my brain. I'm at the point now where I have to write everything down, otherwise I just forget it. I'm the same way.

Okay, so after contact in the desert on June 10th through the 11th, be at the Bigfoot Expo in Fairbanks, Alaska. That'll just be me. And after that, we'll both be at, on June 30th, we'll both be at the Rosswell incident speaking. And we have some stuff coming up in September in Colorado, around the middle of September, where we'll be speaking at the Bigfoot Outpost and for Denver Mufon. there's a lot of things that are still going on. And I would like to say at this point that one of the reasons Stan hasn't been with me on a lot of these talks is that he just retired a week ago. And he was still working at the time. So he did 30 years in law enforcement. And finally,

you know, survived it and got out. But in the time he was there, it was kind of an unspoken thing. We don't want you to go out and do all these UFO crypted paranormal stuff because he was doing investigations. So, you know, he's, the dogs have been released now. So he's available. Congratulations. Yeah.

Thank you. That's exciting. I know. Just when you thought you were. You're ready to rest, Stan. You're going to be traveling the world speaking about this stuff for the foreseeable future. That's fine. That's amazing.

Well, I have to thank you guys for giving me your time tonight, sharing those stories with us. But I do kind of want to just give these last moments to both of you. Any last words you want to give to our audience here, just about, you know, this weird world we live in, where it's heading. and how all of this paranormal stuff plays into it. Yeah, any last words you want to leave our viewers and listeners with? Stan, let's start with you. One of the things really that I want to try to get across in debate is that if you've had these kind of experiences, if your family member,

if a family member has an experience, whether it's Bigfoot or UFOs, or a haunting related activity. You know, really, first of all, you're not crazy. There are, you'd be hard pressed to probably try to reach out and find an individual family that has not had a family member that has some type of paranormal experience, whether it's UFOs, Bigfoot, or, you know, things involving witchcraft. So globally, if you look, you'd be hard-pressed to try to find any family that hasn't had some type of experience, however small or however, you know, really large or overpressing.

So you're not crazy. people have these experiences and yeah you're not alone so i'll let john thank you okay for me one of the things as as a criminal investigator um is that we're constantly looking for answers we're not satisfied with just um you know all the case is done okay throw it in the back back of the file cabinet and forget about it. We're looking for answers. We want to know. We found out as far back as 2009,

we started coming up with a theory that all of these things, UFOs, Bigfoot, cryptids, even Skinwalkers, were all related somehow, that there had to be something common, linking them all together. And what we found out was this idea of stringers, theory and parallel dimensions had a lot to do with with it. We've got UFOs popping into existence with a definite pop that, you know, the sound goes right through your body. And then they fade out. We've had Bigfoot appear. And when he's appeared and we got more cases involved in

Bigfoot cases, we saw a corresponding increase in UFO traffic. And we've seen them linked together numerous times that they were seen in the presence of UFOs. And we've tracked Bigfoot and he's disappeared. If he had taken another step, he would have left the track and backtracked him to the point where his footprints appear. So we think that they're coming in from a parallel dimension. through a dimensional gate somehow, and they might be able to manipulate these things. Whether accidental or on purpose, there's definitely something here that they're interested in.

Same with hauntings. So, you know, we started talking about this in 2011 in presenting. And since then, the industry, the TV industry, now you tune in and you hear a lot about parallel dimensions and the government's even trying to figure out how to access and use dimensional gates and faster than light travel. So yeah, I think we're ahead of the curve now. Yeah.

Well, let's add psychic abilities too because that was actually a question I forgot to ask you guys. Is this all somehow connected? So thanks, John. John, you pre-cognitively answered that for me. So thank you. Thank you. Well, we knew you were going to ask that.

Exactly. It's got to come up at some point in these conversations. But, no, I've kept the gentleman longer than I told you. So we're going to say good night for tonight. But once again, guys, please go, if you can, to contact in the desert that is June 2nd through the 4th. And also check out the other events that John. Eventually, eventually Stan will be speaking at as well.

Yes. Again, I briefly met you guys almost, oh gosh, almost a decade ago at this point. And it was an honor and pleasure to see you speak then. And it was an honor and pleasure to have you on somewhere in the skies tonight as well.

So thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you to your audience. Yeah. Thank you guys for having us. We hope to see you out there somewhere. Somewhere in the skies. There you go.

Exactly. Welcome to Anama Khan. Anama Khan is a virtual conference on everything anomalous, live streaming on YouTube, Twitter X, and on Twitch. Join us on September 1st and 2nd, as over two dozen speakers give presentations on everything from UFOs and aliens to ghosts and the paranormal, from Bigfoot and Lake Monsters to witchcraft and the occult.

It's all happening at Anamacan. And most importantly, it's completely. completely free. To learn more about our speakers in the event, visit Anamacan.com. We'll see you on September 1st and 2nd for Anamacan. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Henry from last podcast on the left. I have been waiting forever, man. We've been, our ships have been passing for years now. And it's finally happening. It's finally happening. It really means something to me because I, people ask me all the time, like, what do I

listen to, like in terms of what do I get information from? And I listen to you somewhere in the skies is probably one of my, is like one of my favorite pure UFO podcasts. And so I'm just happy to be here. Wow. Thanks, man. Well, you do such good work. You know what I and I will say, because I listen to the witness when you do the witness accounts. Like that is some of my favorite. Like I don't know what it says about me, but I listen to it sometimes to go to sleep in hotel rooms. Like I'll listen to it and talk. And then like I have crazy as dreams. Like, I have crazy ass dreams. And then like I have crazy ass. dreams, like, as I go. Like, because I find this, so I find every one of those, like, I mean, they're very, very compelling.

But, like, you have the nice soothing music. And then everyone, so I'd be like, bring in our song, the triangular object come over the horizon. It's like, it's my version of ASMR. Oh, done. I get, I actually, I get that all the time that I put people to sleep. So I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or not. I get it all the time, too. You know what it is?

Sometimes I'm alone in a hotel room. I'm looking for company. and it's nice to have a voice. And like, my issue is that the reason why then I have to stop it is that then I get drawn into a story. And then all of a sudden, now I can't sleep because I'm like,

I'm under the covers just like listening to, because I find witness accounts to be deeply compelling, especially like anybody that has like, you know, we were just talking about it on this week's side stories, but like really the dividing line between all these various stories where like, If you see an orb in the sky, it could just be tech that we don't know about unless you have some kind of emotional reaction.

Because a lot of them, to me, the most compelling witness stories, all the ones are like, I experienced a wave of emotion when I saw this thing. Besides just wonder, like literally like hearing a vibe that's like calm down or like, why do you use nuclear weapons? And you're like, I don't know. My name's Tammy. I'm from Missouri. I don't know why you're asking me. Why we use these horrible things, gray man. It's true, though, man.

Like, the biggest question that a lot of these people have when they see these things is, why me? Like, either they feel like they were chosen or even if it was complete happenstance. Like, it changes their lives in some ways. So I'm happy that the witness accounts resonate with you because, look, even when I'm editing those episodes together, I get so enthralled by the stories that I forget. get, oh, I'm creating a podcast episode. I'm not, I'm not just listening to this. Yeah.

So I love that. And, you know, we're on, I'm coming out with one, uh, next week actually, volume 26. Damn, dog. So we're up of 26 witness accounts volumes, which shows truly how prolific and how, uh, you know, how so many people are seeing these things. It's, and they can't explain what it is. Well, look at what we just, we're dealing with right now. got, you know, we're shooting shit out of the sky that we used to sort of like, you know,

we, how did we, we, we adjusted NORAD so we could see slower things, smaller things in the sky. And the first thing we're doing is blowing them up, which is the first thing it shows that like, number one, they've been there this whole time because we're just turning it on now, right? So we're just turning the system on now so we can see them, which means this stuff's been floating up there. And then also millions, probably millions of people have seen. scene something, something anomalous that is in the sky. And it's just weird how, like, they're all catching up. And the first thing that we decide to do is scramble F-22s at it.

Yeah. Shoot and ask questions later. It's very American. Let's be completely honest. But I really feel on the, well, it talked about it. It's the idea, like, aren't these generals afraid? I thought that's what George Knapp was talking about that he was so scared. They're all scared of the phenomena.

Don't, aren't you afraid of poke the bear? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Why are we blowing them up? We'll go there. I definitely want to get your brutal thoughts on brutally honest, I should say, thoughts on all the stuff going on now. But I want to backtrack for just a few moments. I know you've answered these questions a million times. But for any of my viewers, my listeners who may not be familiar with your podcast and the work you do, you know, coming from New York City, I was a playwright most of my life. So I'm always interested to meet and meet other people who act, who are into the acting world. So I got to ask, before we even get to UFOs, how did you get interested in acting?

How did that whole journey start for you? Oh, man. I am just not a skilled person. I think that's how it started. I think that I was a ham as a little boy. and I immediately got a form of positive validation outside of my parents. Right? My parents were obviously, I was a kid that like, you know,

like many kids born in the mid-80s, was immediately diagnosed with ADHD. They're all like, oh, he's got our ADD, I think they used to call it, you know, and they're like, because I was very energetic and probably ADD. But what my mom did was that in order to like fix me, what she just said instead of putting him on Ritalin like they did with,

half of our generation. They just tied me to things, right? Like my mom would literally, I would be like a high security prisoner everywhere I went. I used to have two leashes on me. I had a leash on my wrist. I had a leash in my belt. I was walking everywhere.

I was like, what's is the Steve Boucheming from Con Air? Right? Like, that's how I was put everywhere. And I think that obviously exhausted my parents. But then everyone else was like, oh, your son's a little star. He loves to act.

And I did immediately. And I remember the first act, the first acting job I got was in third grade. Because I was a baby model for a second, but then I was fired for me in a baby model because I wouldn't take direction. Which I don't even know what that means. I don't even know even like this. Yeah.

I guess I was tearing shit up. Like I literally was like an uncontroll. I was like a little Mickey Rourke. Yeah. But I got my first role in a third grade play where I played an alien that was dressed like Santa Claus. And I got the part because I was the first. I was the only kid who did.

didn't need the pillow for the Santa Claus costume. And I was willing to do it. So boom, what I first learned, the first rule about acting I learned was have no shame and just be willing to do what others won't. And you'd be really surprised what comes your way. As long as you really allow yourself to get pretty gross with it. And then later on, I think it really came from just a genuine, deep, vacuous hole inside that needed to be filled with attention.

but then I weaponized it in a way that really worked for me. And then I also love it. I just love to enter, I love to be funny. I used to talk so much in class. So they gave me like 10 minutes at the end of the day. I had a fifth grade teacher used to give me like a set that I could just do at school. And then I just started doing drama when I was 15. And it just has been this way ever since.

And I went to Florida State University, which wasn't really like an acting school. But like I had good teachers that were all like go. Usually guys who just need to go to New York. And so my sketch group, my sketch comedy group that was, together called Murder Fist. We went to Florida State University together, and then we all moved to New York, and then it went from there.

All right. We just keep going. And I just love it. You know, it's just been, I'm very lucky in the fact that we have no connections. I think we are possibly the, I don't know what the opposite of a Nepo baby is. We,

the exact opposite. We are not wanted full adult. Like we were actively told, don't join show business. But now we've been doing it for long enough that we just kind of weaseled our way in there. That's awesome, man. Well, in you guys, you filled, I think, a void that was desperately needed in a lot of this sort of podcasting world we live in.

You know, you've got these UFO podcasts. You got these true crime podcasts. You've got all these things that take it way too seriously. We started this 12 years ago, last podcast and the left. So those of you don't know, I co-host a show called Last Podcast on the Left, which is a comedy podcast about true crime, paranormal, serial killers, everything that is within what we view a giant macalbre umbrella. You know, it's all horrors imagined and real is like how Marcus put it. And when we started, there was none of that. We were, we call ourselves second wave because the first wave was like Adam Carolla, Joe Rogan was only about a year before us.

Mark Merrin was about a year before us. And they were doing one thing. And at the time, the only content that was out there was hyper, what you were saying, hyper, truly hyper serious. It was either, or we used to make fun of true crime voice. We're like, then Springvale, no one ever locked their doors. You know, like, and now, like we, we started as an adverse reaction to that very, very heavy content. Because we knew we were the people that were interested in this subject matter.

and we're going to talk like it. So we know that the people that are, the people that were actually into this stuff talk the way that we did, joking about it because Gallo's humor kind of comes with the territory. And over time, the show has really gotten thicker and thicker and thicker

because, number one, we know we want to be true to our audience and we want them to know that we are like digging hard. Like we're working real hard to stay up with the times and have that show be as thick as it possibly can be. And it's weird to watch an entire, too. The entire genre grow around you. All of a sudden, there's comedy, paranormal, true crime shows everywhere. And you're like, I don't, we started that, but I didn't know who we keep going.

And so we're just here now. Now it's like 12 years later, it's like, it really just like, we just put our head down. We put our head down to work like 12 years ago. And it's like we keep lifting our head up. We're like, what? Holy shit. Okay. Oh, shit.

And so we just keep doing it. We just love doing it. Well, in that, in it shows. And, you know, I think what happens in the podcast and world, and I learned this early on, you know, I'm only like three years in. So that's nothing compared to something like what you guys have achieved. But you've done a lot in three years. Well, thank you. I appreciate.

I've never missed a single week. Yeah. And that's something I'm holding. I'll never experience a day off. And then it's fine. As long as you just never once experience a day off, then it's like you're not missing the, you're not missing the weekend if you never have one. You know what? Exactly.

Exactly. As long as you sacrifice your health, your relationships, you'll have a successful podcast. No, I'm just saying. It's that easy. It's that easy. Well, that's kind of my point is you see so many people trying to podcast. And after one or two, three episodes, they're like, oh, this is way too much work or I'm not making money off of this. Like, I've done.

And I see it every day. Oh, yeah, of course. We didn't make a dime for seven years. We did the show for free at that level for seven years. But mostly it was, again, it's because I didn't know, I didn't know what else to do. We were so interested in. We were just like, why would we stop? We were into it.

We're watching the audience grow. And we felt good about doing it. So we're like, we're just going to keep doing it. And also it's reiterating the same lesson that I've learned in this business that I'm in, which is if you wanted something to be there for you, you have to make it. And then you have to show up every day. and you have to make it the job you want it to be without like you know now it's more like understanding putting making sure you're feeling the joy with it as you go but you know we made it a job

yep and we now we're like accidental experts in all of this stuff sort of it's more like people ask me stuff and i don't even realize like what i know anymore because of all the years of reading all of this you know i don't remember my niece's birthday but i know but i know a lot about UFOs. But you remember what day, you know, the Roswell crash happened. I'm the same way, you mean. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Well, hey, let's go there. Not Roswell. Roswell's been done to death, but I was listening to one of your more recent episodes on the Trinity UFO crash. What do you think of this thing? I find it very, very interesting. That's my question for you.

It's, I think that there is a reason why, because now we're talking about like, This new group. What's it, what's the new, the new, the new UAP group? It's not ATIP. Arrow. Yeah. Arrow.

Arrow. Yeah. And what they decided was like, is they're going through this database. I've been listening to a lot of Jacques valet, right? And I love Jacques, right? I love him. I think he's brilliant. He can talk for a long time.

And it's very esoteric. Well, you have to kind of peel apart because he's much smarter than us. And so I, I'm trying to listen to him. talk and he was kind of talking about how he was a part of the team that put together the artificial intelligence like aggregate software to put together this database of information that this new group, Aero, is going to use for witness testimony, from both inside the military and out. And then it's that question of like, well, if Roswell started in 1947, they're talking about

all this shit's now going to start in 1945. So I guess like there's somebody in the Pentagon that decided that that that trinelselsels Trinity experience was strong enough to be the actual big mark the beginning marker of what we call modern UFOs like you know and and it's very interesting I feel like the the main thing that that compels me is the physical evidence like the idea of like some kind of object bounced off a control tower uh is very you know we know that that happens something bounced off a control tower they said that that definitely happened the weird thing with the the the cleared out all of the rubble like you know obviously the quote unquote men and black

showed up cleared it all up but then like a bunch of poisonous plants being buried there or implanted there to keep people away that was like one thing they said that that might have happened there's something about it and having those kids have like you know those now old men have the memories of seeing this thing and experience this thing is also very compelling And I, you know, it just shows that what we're dealing with right now, whatever it is that's happening in our skies right now over North America. Like, this is, this might be something attached to it. Like, this might be something. Because if we can blow them up, maybe they can also crash.

If it is what we think it is. Or if it's like, you know, what's her name who wrote this story about the area 51 who said that the actual answer to Roswell? well was that it was surgically altered prisoners from Russia. Any, uh, any Jacobson. Adam Jacobson saying that he was sending these things over which I think is a far crazier explanation than aliens.

Dude, I well, okay. So maybe it's just same shit. Maybe I don't know because he said they saw the little people coming out of it. So maybe like in 1945, the Trinity crash. So maybe they're saying that that's what that is. Do you but you bunch of confused

Russians just out of surgery. That's going like, oh, shit, how did we get, we were at summer vacation? And then all of a sudden, now they're getting like, they're just getting scooped up and dropped off at Dulce. And you've no clue why they're there. They've been putting it in a big tank, just being like, we are not aliens. We are just from other country. You know, and no one will let, and they're like, exactly. We got you. We got you. Bagged and tagged. Dude, I mean, well, and that's, you bring up a good point. That's far more disturbing than even aliens crashing on our planet.

If some country, whether it's Russia or us, there's even stories that we were using, you know, mentally disabled children and putting them up in these high altitude balloons to see how far they would go up. Yeah. Those scientists are going to get canceled. And I think they need to be really careful about because those things, I mean, it does obviously seem to help in touring numbers. but when it comes down to they'll never be able to surgically alter mentally handicapped people for NBC ever again. And that's the worst fate you can imagine. But no, it's really, it's more the idea of the links that the whatever information that was planted back in the day talking about this incident was kind of, it's kind of interesting how they show the links they'd go. I feel the same way kind of about like, this is where we get real.

conspiracy territory where like the idea that like you make the things inside of mk ultra so unbelievable that no one would believe you if you even told them so you create this crazy inner inner inner secret like what like you know we would l r h lord hubbard like kind of cemented with the z new reveal which is the ultimate you've been here for so long you've been researching these things so long you've given me so much of our lot of your life i'm not going to show you the the quote unquote real inner secret. And it's this whackadoo, like, and now it's too late because now you kind of have to buy it.

Now you're invested. But yeah, I don't know because, yeah, it's like the idea of where's the information chain in Russia? Where is the series of memos of finding the mentally challenged kids to do the surgery on? Who was the surgeon? Where'd they do the surgery? Where are the other UFO like objects that they were. would use. That was like, you know, I was listening to one news report talking about how like,

if what we're seeing over North America is high tech from other countries, would they not have wanted to demonstrate total domination over the aerial space a long time ago? Why would they be waiting to just let it float over above Alaska? Wouldn't they be using this shit? So I feel like it's the same thing with, with Roswell. And what happened there were like, I feel like we would have seen a lot more of them if they had this stuff. But like, and out in the open that you would have seen Stalin riding one like a, like a cowboy, just to show everybody he has one. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it's such a weird game.

And we're seeing it play out right now, too. This mystery's been with us, you know, even before Roswell. And it's a matter of how will, you know, the government or the various intelligence agencies, use that mystery to their advantage. And I think that's kind of what we're seeing play out right now is they're not saying they're all surveillance. They're not saying they're all balloons. They're saying they're unidentified objects.

And what does that mean to most people? Aliens. Freaking UFO. Yeah. They know what they're doing. Yeah. They wanted the confusion, but now it's like the buck got passed to us to figure out why.

Why are you saying that? word UFOs. All I've heard the word, all I've heard is the word UAP since December 2017 when those videos came out. Like all we've heard is UAP. And then all of a sudden as soon as we start shooting them, we're calling them UFOs. You know, like now it's now we're calling them that. But I actually, I really, I, I guess that's, that's what's so hard, right, is that conspiracy thinking is taking disparate points and trying to string together a story because there's a vacuum in information. And so it seems that they are purposely doing it with a lack of information. Now, number one, does it mean that they don't have that information at all?

Because that's a part of me. Like, is it just general confusion? Is there as full Occam's razor to this? Where you got old man Biden who is just as scared of this stuff. as everybody else is, and they legitimately don't know what it is, right? Because to me, I would first say, like, if they didn't know what it was, they probably would have called it a balloon. I think that we've seen this time and time again,

that they've just actively lied. But at least with Roswell, I'm going to come repeat this joke that I did this week, but it was like, at least with Roswell, they gave us the credit had given us a reach around by like dropping off some fake wreckage. At least, at least they're like, that was what I was saying. It was like, show me a balloon. And I'll believe you. You know?

Or two, are they doing this for some counter espionage deep, like, could some, some propaganda reason to flex to China, to flex to Europe, deflex to Russia? Like, I don't know. And then on some level, it just makes me tired. Because the one thing I know for a fact that now, hearing them all talk about, it makes me think, when you insinuate that it's UFOs and aliens, I know it's not because you're not going to say it until you get one voting for you. You know what I mean? Like you're not going to get one. You're not going to, I know you're not going to say it until it is a, we're going to have a full rollout. It's going to be like showing that like Tupac still alive. He's going to come out. You're going to

have that next to like, you know, everybody's favorite, Melissa McCarthy. They're going to intro the alien to society. You know, like they're going to come out and say something where I'm, that's in my view where like if you start saying the word of UFOs it's like now you're just lying to me to my fucking face yeah like what's going on here like why are you doing this because i know you're doing this for a reason i don't know what it is and and maybe it's because you know we we brought it up this week about like covering you know like not necessarily wanting to get deep into the fact that there was a massive chemical spill in ohio maybe it's something like that but it seems to also tie into just this whole thing this whole

like new system as a whole their new their new system of thought of like embracing UFOs which I mean I think for some is really cool I've loved on your show of you talked about the hopefulness of it and you hope that it will bring some

like much needed light and legitimacy to the subject where we can get some real like real money to actually investigate it and real people to actually willing to put their names on it and say I'm willing to investigate it for for quote-to-quote reasons.

You know, now that it's legit, I'll do it. Or are they just doing it to bring it further closer to the vest? Being like, now we got it. Now, don't worry, we got, don't worry, we're handling all of this. Meanwhile, it's just more sciops that we're being subjected to. And I'm not quite certain what the purpose of the sci-ups are. Yeah. No one is.

And I mean, that, you're so right. I mean, if they can keep a hold, and control the narrative, then that's what they've been doing all along. But I think what we're seeing sort of play out Henry, which is the hopeful side of me. No, and you know even more than I do. Like,

I'd love to know, like, what is the hopeful, like, angle of this? Yeah. It's hard because there's, there's very little to be hopeful about when you kind of got your hopes up in 2017. I mean, there's no denying that story that broke into. 2017, like, was huge. And it'll be a story for the UFO, for UFO history.

However, everything after that, it's what happens after. And we're getting groups within the Pentagon. We're getting Congress people talking about it. A lot has happened. And now we're at the point where we're shooting them out of the sky and not telling the public what we're shooting out of the sky. That's all, it gives me a headache, man. thinking about it. But the thing I'm hopeful about, yes. Oh, I'm sorry. The thing I'm hopeful about is

the ripple effect after that. It's the people who, like you said, were inspired, these scientists who are like, whoa, there's something to this. So when you see someone like, you know, Eric Weinstein or Avi Loeb being like, yo, there's, this is legit now. I can actually talk about this because I think there's something to it. Cool. And then what then what happens? Harvard, funds Avi Loeb to go look for techno signatures of alien artifacts, which is a ripple effect of everything that's happened post 2017. So that's kind of the stuff I'm hopeful about, you know? No, me too.

And I, because I, the one thing about this subject matter is that I think obviously there's, there's contingent of people who are like, don't we have more important things to focus on, which I'm like, true, sure. Yes. There's been, there's a lot of, there's a lot of shit going on. to put it lightly. There's a lot going on. But there's something about this

this avenue of thought that I think can give humanity hope past just Bezos like bad like you know, needing, he's trying to bail on us. Right? Like Bezos did a little trial run to go to space

to say the quiet part out loud of being like, I'm going to be living in space while this rock dies. All right. By everybody. And then realize it's, real difficult. Like he got up there and he was like, oh, this is it first class on the Emirates flight. Like I did that one time. Like, oh, this is not, this sucks. Like, I'm nauseous. Like, this isn't fun. And so I think that there's that that angle of people get, but there's something like this that shows that like, no, like, in our new godless world, like there is something to like point yourself towards where you're like,

like there is there is more to this there is more to our reality as we know it and yes i think a lot of it's going to end up just being unexplored areas it's just like sticking our head into into closets into places that we have just not been and and what what it's going to mean and like looking at life differently but i think that that's important i think it's important to also know that like you know you don't need even a mystical reason to live you don't need a it's there's life is is is thick and powerful enough to be examined on its own. And it's here right now. Like, I think a lot of what we're going to see is some of the stuff that we're,

that's floating around. And our atmosphere is literal living organisms that we've just never really cataloged before. And never known how to look at. And like, my whole thing with the phenomena is that it's like a 25 layer cake. It has many different. slots and many different things it is inside one cake. And it's got all the flavors inside of it. And each one is true.

You don't what I mean? Like maybe there are like recon orbs from a nuts and bolts biological species that it's on its way here. Maybe there is an interdimensional factor that pops its way in and out. Maybe there is extemporal humans that are traveling and buzzing us every once in a while and sort of like a haze that they can't fully break through. because of whatever the future technology that allows them to come and view the past. Who fucking knows?

But I'm open. I am gaped for it. Absolutely, right? On all fours. I'm on all fours, ready to accept the phenomena, however it'll take me. As long as you got your knee pads, right? Yeah. I've been stretching.

That's my lower back has been killing me taking this phenomenon the last week and a half. Did everybody in your family message you? Like, how does you, can I ask you? Obviously, we're doing an interview after this. But, like, what is your family? Like, do they all like, Ryan, what's going on? The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to every week. But if you would like to help support the show, we have a very active Patreon page where you give what you think the show is worth.

In return, you'll get early access to the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Oh, yeah. I mean, it took them a while. I think, you know, when I kind of, it was, I threw two curveballs at my family. And the first was I left pursuing being a professional baseball player to becoming a theater major. I mean, that's cool, though.

That's cool. It's cool. Well, you're giving up sports. I think sports is something else because I got like, I saw my buddies. Like, I had two friends that were really good at high school sports and it was like one injury and their whole career is over.

Everything they've been preparing for since they were five years old is over. And what has Kirk Douglas shown is that you can be an actor for forever. Forever, man. It's a forever job. If you let it. If you let it. Yeah. So that was the first curveball I throw him.

And then it was the I want to pursue UFOs with every waking moment of my life when I'm not acting or when I'm not playwriting or when I'm not doing my 9 to 5 job. And I think they were a little scared at first. They thought I was going down down. Well, the track record of ufology is not bright. Exactly. And I know we'll be talking about that. You hold on to your love. You hold on to your love.

you make sure you check in. I mean it. I was during as these. So my wife and I, we were having a staycation. We were like, we've been working real hard for downtime stay weekend.

We're like, we're going to go. We're going to do a nice little like stay at a hotel. Like, you know, like let somebody else clean the house for two days and we'll like be like, you know, be sexy or whatever.

Meanwhile, shit's getting blown out of the sky. I'm watching C-SPAN. Like I'm literally like, watching C-SPAN and talking and like doing my aliens and like Natalie comes in she's like we we need to go on a horse ride we're supposed to go to a horse ride and I was like you're right you're right and she she understands she married me you didn't mean same things it's like you're already in this boat I don't know what to tell you you're in it yes what baby

you are an unofficial uphologist now unfortunately you're you're the first uh sad this euphologist wife proxy baby I know but no but you but she She's super into the material too. So, like, as I talk about it, but it is really funny to try to, like, be super, like, romantic and fun and emotionally connected. Meanwhile, like, it's me just being like, what's out there, Joe?

Like, I'm, like, yelling at the president's face. Just being like, you know, I'm lying to me, Joe, and then come back and trying to make love. It's hard, man. I mean, every day. And I know most of our listeners and viewers probably struggle with that, too. Like, these topics take a hold of you. because it's a burning curiosity

and it could ultimately change everything about life, about existence if we were to ever get any of those answers. I also, I'm still just counting on that thing that means we all never have to work ever again. Like, let them just come and then we just go up there. I'll be a jester for the reptilians.

It's like put me, I mean, I'll be, I'm fun. I'll be like, you know, I don't know what they'll want me to do. It'll probably put various things up my butt. You know what I mean? I know that that's what they like. Apparently, that's, a thing. I know. Well, hey, yeah, I mean, my family is so supportive now. I think, you know, once they saw that the world was now taking it seriously and that there could be a core phenomenon happening, what that is, nobody truly knows. At least I don't think they do. That was, that was the moment

where I think, like, I could sit at a bar with my dad and, you know, instead of like watching the the Detroit Lions or something were having a conversation about the Rendezum Forest incident or something like that, you know? Take it back the narrative. He's the one asking me about it. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's kind of nice. I mean, I've learned, I've learned like four sports names so that I could talk to other men so that I don't

always talk about UFOs. But it is a thing where it is interesting how the topic really blows stuff up. Like, we went to go a shoot a little pilot presentation for last podcast in the last podcast network and we went to research on the uh you know the stepanville ohio like stevenville texas uh the the group citing so we went down there to go talk to a bunch of people and that's it brings people out of the woodwork because they were this it's a very small town in texas as we were coming like they were not happy that we were there at first like we were getting a lot of people like driving pass and blowing their horns and people yelling us and stuff like and then at the end of it like it's pretty hostile but all these guys that were yelling

at us we were doing this bar shoot they'd be like oh you got an alien you do an alien thing i got a UFO store to tell you and then they just like all of a sudden they're your best friend and they're saying like hyper emotional like because again the phenomena opens people up like there's and even these like hardened texans are like like talking about like talking about about how like we were interviewing this like little guy he was a sheriff dude he was like maybe five foot tall like four feet wide though like a dull jack guy with a crew cut and he was intense but like at the end of like he's getting emotional because he was just like it like it affected him he was like watching he was like so you're not thing up in the sky made me

understand that we're not alone in this world and it's like damn like it's it really does have it's, UFOs have that grassroots kind of emotional effect that like, I just wanted to tell that dude being like, all you had to do is take mushrooms one time.

And you could have avoided a lot of this mess. Like you really could have gotten a little bit more empathy into the system. But whatever works, like if it takes aliens, that maybe that's the control system that Jacques Valet talks about.

Exactly. There's many roads to get to the same destination, I think. And just being chill, being chill. Yeah, and it makes you feel more human. I honestly feel that whatever these phenomena represent, they put us back in our shoes. When you see a UFO, holy shit, like you've never felt closer to the ground in front of you in that moment instead of scrolling on your phone or thinking about what's for dinner. How am I going to pay the next bill? You see that thing in the sky that's not supposed to be there. And boom, you're put back into the press. present moment like never before. And that's what I love about it. The immediacy, the vulnerability and someone like you said with this

Texan sheriff, like he probably doesn't open up to anyone like he did. So that's really cool. He felt it. It felt it. And I'm just so jealous to you guys who really have seen something. I finally saw my first orb and everyone's making fun in me.

Because I say I didn't see anything. Oh, they said, oh, you're drunk. I was like, uh, I might have been. but also I know what I saw I know what I saw I saw like again it was like I saw a blob floating down a train track and like you know

I saw it down south and they all got stories of that ghost train that's ghost train you know you're like that's ghost train but it's interesting like that's the closest I ever got because you saw like an actual like well I want to cover an our interview but you saw an actual hard object in the sky

right to an extent I saw a structured formation of lights that I could not see anything behind it. So I assume it was a structured craft. But I didn't see like machinery. We'll talk about it on last podcast. But over under.

Are triangles U.S. tech? What's your over under are triangles U.S. tech? I have a feeling that the triangles are U.S. tech and that the, there's a mixture of like, And if you did, like, straight up, it's just like when you see a flying saucer, nobody knows what the hell that is. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know.

What do you think? I honestly think with the triangles, we're dealing with manmade craft with some other technology. I honestly feel like it's the hybrid craft. If there is one. Do guys come to you with stuff? Because I get some of these. And some I take word for word

And some are more like I don't know what you're doing Like people being like I got secret information for you I got secret pictures I got videos that you can't share And do when you see that stuff Like what do you do with it?

Like does it just inform like It's informed me I don't know what's real or what's not real It just informed me that the thing is really deep But it's like Is there anything that you've seen That you're not allowed to show That you're

Like, I'm sorry, I flipped this on you. You got to take this for me. You got to take this show from me, dog. Pull it back. No, that is a great question because I want to, I want to know from you too. Like I get emails all the time. I get people sending me, whether it's photos, videos, testimony or documents. And I mean, I take everyone and look at it.

You know, I think there's value to anyone who's willing to take the time to reach out to me. Um, but it's such a subjective thing. Like when I get sent something and they say, oh, my God, man, like, this is going to be earth changing or like this, this can't be shown to anyone. And then I look and it's a photo of like, just a blurry light in the sky. Well, because I understand that person must have been freaking out. Absolutely. And I'm not going to take that from them. No, and they're taking a picture.

They're like, their hands are shaking. They're trying to take a picture of a thing, which. is, I don't know if you've tried to take a picture of what you think is an anomalous light in the sky. And then I take the picture and it just looks, yeah, awful. Like it's just not good, you know. But it, they, they felt the feeling of seeing something and then desperate to, desperate to catch it. And I, you know, because, you know, you see it on all the subredits.

The main critique, which is, if they were real, wouldn't we have TikTok like full like 1080? like HD view of these things. And it's like, I actually don't know if we would. I don't know whether or not if it is conscious in and of itself, it seems if you do believe in the, you know, I love the Newkirk's. Greg and Dan and Newkirk do a whole show about like mixing

like all of these sorts of like these topics at once like cryptids, ghosts, aliens and talk about the capital P phenomenon. And the idea that like there is a trickster X, aspect that like kind of likes to flirt and it doesn't want you to take a picture of it. And it also seems to be a dance between the object and the viewer or how many times you've seen, all of these witness accounts talking like that same thing being like I felt like it knew I was watching it. And it was doing a the,

it was doing a performance for me. Like it was with a demonstration that term you see that comes up a lot. And so like, so you think that thing's going to dance. around, but it doesn't want you if I can take a cameraman. It's like Dave Chappelle. He's trying to work stuff out. Like, it doesn't want you to be there for it. It doesn't want you to nail it down. Because as soon as we start

nailing it down, I mean, you know, again, you could have the best HD picture of a full saucer that you want. And there's going to be somebody that's going to take it apart, as they should. I don't even blame them. I don't even blame them. Like, sure. Yeah, of course. Attack it. Go at it. You're supposed to. But it's like, you know, you're not going to make people believe. Look at this stuff.

Look what's been happening in the last, like, six years. Is that like, you know, I did a bit in our live show about like UFOs became real and absolutely nothing changed. So why don't we, you know, who cares? It's like, why do they think there is such a corporate thing to even keep it all down? I feel like it's just the phenomenon is hard to capture. Yeah. Absolutely, man. It's crazy.

And I think that's where the true, like, disclosure comes. It comes with each person who sees something. And it, you know, if we're going to get like metaphysical, like the true disclosure is from within. Like, don't trust the government entity. Yeah, exactly. I don't need the U.S. government and make it legal for me to believe. I'm going to disclose to myself because if I don't disclose to myself, ain't nobody going to disclose for me.

And I think that's what this is about. You really, it's about, again, it's letting. what's the control system supposed to be it's supposed to be about looking up at the sky taking a moment to be with yourself and the universe and you would be surprised what comes out of that hello you'd be surprised what comes out of just joining into the flow of nature and yes even if you're you know what do you see now on online all the time people say touch grass or whatever but it's like just being out they just looking at the sky looking at the sky looking at looking for UFOs is going to even accidentally make you more connected to the universe of large. And there's something about that. Like, I don't know if there's a direct personality baked into the operating system that is our reality.

I don't know if there is something like that. Like, like, but there's something to be said about how the phenomena is just saying, like, all we want you to do is pay attention to your heartbeat for a second. Like, all we want you to do is to pull your head out of your ass. just for a second and not think about all your garbage and just flow, flow with the universe. Because obviously, yeah, we're shooting these things out of the sky,

maybe, whatever this thing is that we're shooting. But it's like, it's just floating there. You know, like it's not zigzagging around. It's not doing, even doing the other shit.

It's not even like turn it on nuclear reactors. It's not doing anything. It's just parked. Yeah. You know, like, and there's something to be said about that. There's something to be said.

about like having a moment of stillness and this is me saying it Lord of fucking chaos that it's the lives in a world of shit but it's like it is there's something about that about literally what Whitley Streber talks about like you know literally communion and what does it mean

to try to to give it up to nature for seconds at a time yeah and it'll change you it will it will and then like you know like that those like you've ever Have you watched a new documentary series on Netflix about mushrooms?

No. It's like it's really interesting, but it's basically just talking about the psychic qualities of mushrooms speaking to each other. That it's not psychic because it's mycelium spreading throughout the soil. But there's a lot to learn about the way mushrooms behave that probably are a mirror to how our consciousness works inside of our reality. Oh, interesting. And that we're not, we're remote, that our consciousness is remote. And we're all like plugged in. And then I was just reading, do you ever read Gene Wolfe?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ever read the shadow of the executioner and all that kind of stuff? I was reading a short story by him last night and him talking about like in this future that they understand that like they struggled for years to, to isolate particles and saying how like they used to call them electrons and protons. And now we understand there's only one basic element and one basic. particle and we are all it and it's all happening at the same time. And I was like, I know I'm high as balls right now, but I do believe that this is like more towards the truth than not, that it's like this thing of what, you know, that it's very wooey, very fern gully.

But I do think that there's something to it. Interesting. I'll have to check that out. Well, hey, man. His short stories are great. Gene Wolfe is. Oh, yeah. Great. He's these, he freaks me out.

Yes. To a, to an extent where I think, um, it, it freaks you out, but it also, again, it makes you think and it makes you wonder. And that's what this is all about. Yeah. So, uh, I love it. Well, hey, I got a couple. You got me positive for you. You got me positive because it was good because I got screaming. It's so nice. Good. And I'm still screaming, but I'm happy. I, hey, if that's what this conversation is for. then we've both done our jobs. I got to get my blood pressure checked on Friday. I don't know what it's, I'm afraid. Oh, no. I don't know what.

Oh, no. Stay away from C-SPAN. I'll tell you not. Oh, God. All right, my man. So we're going to head over to last podcast soon, but I got to get some listener questions in. Yes, please.

Before we go, if that's cool. Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. So Black Cat Report on Patreon asks, what advice would you give to a new podcaster? trying to grow a community. I know we touched on that earlier, but yeah, anything you can really say to someone who's just getting involved in the podcasting world? You have to have a naive attachment

to doing the show. Like, you really need to ask yourself to like, do I want to do this all the time and really love it? And get into it. And the main key is showing up same time, same place, each week, every week, being dependable. The internet has a little bit, like, I was talking about somebody, the internet is a medium and the fact that, you can build a trust with an audience that you can, that film and TV can't.

And it's building a place for people to go. And it's really being there, you know, rain or shine. You know, I remember when I was starting to do comedy in New York, I think the same axiom applies where it's like, you do the same show for three people that you do for 5,000 people. Like you do the same show because you're really just trying to, you should be so in love with the craft of it that you're willing to move forward. And you just do it sustainably.

That's what it's like making a way that it's sustainable for you and you do it regularly. And then all of a sudden you're just going to wake up and you're going to have a whole body of work. And there's going to be a bunch of people there too. Lose yourself in a little bit of the work. But in a 2023 mindset. mindset, like, you do need to create space for yourself as well. Like, you do, you got to. You got to, like, play a video game.

Walk away. Like, you got to, like, do that stuff so that it is something you're super excited about coming back around to and doing. Such a good point. And try, yeah. And do what works and drop what don't. Like, literally, there's nothing sacred. I think that's also an important thing, too. It's like, there's nothing sacred.

If the episode sucks, scrap it. redo it. If they got to wait for it, if they got to wait for it, then they'll wait for it because it's better for you to show up with the shit good versus like, that's all right. It's whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah, just put out there. It's like, especially in the beginning stages, like really, really go for it because when we started, we didn't under, we didn't fully grasp that everything was going to be permanent. You know, like we sort of thought it. But we didn't really understand that it's there forever. So. Yeah. That's a. it. Yeah, I love it. I love that, man. That's good advice for me too, actually. I wish I knew. We all do. Jonathan asks, actually, we had quite a few people ask this question. What is your favorite case? What case would you put before a skeptic or the public at large to be like, you need to pay attention to this. Like, it's documented. Something truly anomalous is happening.

Do you have like a case you kind of would hang your hat on? I mean, these days, I would put it towards Rendlesham. I still think Rendell Shim is, I love, I love that story. There is, there is a lot to that story, mainly because of the nature of where it happened. Like, it happened at this, like, essentially like a place for us to hide our nuclear weapons in Europe. Like, like, it's very compelling. I think it's really interesting. A bunch of people who are trained to observe or people who saw it.

I think that also points towards a little bit of physical evidence. The whole bunch of people there to kind of account for happening. I think it's interesting. And I think the aerial school group siting in Zimbabwe is also harrowing. And just, again, it points more towards the physical slash psychic nature of the phenomena. And there's that a bunch of kids all seeing the same thing. drawn pictures of it independently. That story freaks me out.

Because everything else kind of gets mired and stuff. Like you have everything else, there's so much noise around it. And also kind of what Jacques Folle was doing in Brazil. All of those stories are very, again, he's a legit researcher telling these stories. And there's, but yeah, I think Rendell Shem and Ariel School are like my favorites in terms of like these are hyper.

These are very, very compelling, especially when I bought that like 250, like was a 2,500 page self-published book. The guy wrote about the information that was like downloaded into his head after he touched the craft. And you're like, who man, this guy did something happen to this guy. I don't know what happened. But he is. He got busy. I got to write a comic book. and each one's 22 pages and it is difficult.

The idea of writing 2,500 pages, something happened. Something happened out there, man. It's definitely one of my favorite. I'm hoping to actually get the forest soon since I'm here. I got to go. I got to go. I know. I got to take advantage of it for sure.

Touch that ground. Do it for the show. Then you can just leave it work. We used to do those whole time. I kind of miss doing the remotes. Because you can kind of mix it up with people and do interviews on the ground. and like I'm certain that you'll dig up a bunch of like people that were there like it sounds really that would be incredible. Yeah, I'm on it. I'm on it, man.

You've inspired me. Like I just got to learn how to drive on the other side of the road. I'm very scared. I wouldn't do. I don't know. I'm not ready. Last time we're in Europe, I wanted to try. I'm with one time I have a vision of doing like a driving trip around Europe.

I think that would be fun to do. But you got to get used to. You do. You do. All right. Last listener question, Henry. I know we got to get, we got to wrap things up here shortly.

Do you, oh, here we go. Does Henry agree with Jacques Valet's position? There you go. He said the golden name, Jacques Valet's position on the phenomenon, as outlined in Passport to McGonia. Or do you have your own theories about what we're dealing with? Well, I talked a little bit about it,

but I do think that, let's just say, I've had chemical help, with this, but I also understand it's very wooy-woo. But I really do believe that anything that you can imagine is real at

some point, someplace, some dimension. Things are just real. If you thought of it, you almost kind of just made it real somewhere. Like I really think that there's something to and that there's so many layers

to the phenomena that I think Jacques Valet is look that's the one I like because I really appreciate the concept of there's a half a world that we're not paying attention to which is like the psychic realm that to me is again just unexplored science versus woo we will like it's way more like we just don't really fully maybe understand or have fully can even can. investigate what our observation does to reality and when like how our group perception dominates reality and then like you know what is an outside of intelligence what is an outside intelligence poking its way into our view of the world and the way jacques valet paints this concept of like you know charting all of these stories through folklore to now and equating you know little people and and you know ogres and and and and and and different things to what we now view as like, you know,

grays and aliens, I think it's just really appropriate. I just think that it doesn't fit all the way in. So it's like, I think that whatever we just blew up, if it's not what I said on side stories, I do believe it's probably our private tech that we're blowing up. But if it's not that and we're just blowing up these weird bogies in the sky, that's something else too. like you know

I don't know what that is like there's something else and then like then I've had listeners say to me because like I'm way into the psychic thing and then recently I had a listener who was like you keep you're honestly you keep saying the psychic thing

but whoever is abducting me is pretty physical and it's like damn that's like a whole other thing that I don't particularly understand I did a narration for documentary about the hybrid program but Gray's like and the way these women talk about

this, it's the same as sexual assault. They talk about this like, like it would like truly, they experience something and then the, the grief and of watching your baby be taking from you. And you can see these gray there and like, is that a psychic projection from something else? I don't know. Is that concrete, concrete reality? They're feeling like it is.

So it's just very, it's just, it's just so interesting. And it lies at the very weird, hazy point of, of, of, of, of, of, a, of, of, a, of, observation and what is real, you know, then you get to the Bill Clinton, what does is mean? Like that very bottom neutrino of logic of like what is real. And, you know, I feel like we're fucking too heavy on it, dog. We're also fucking concerned about what's real dog. When it's like, the only thing I know is that like, I can't wish taxes away.

Even though like I wish I could. They keep, that's a persistent thing that keeps fucking rolling in. So I don't know. I mean, who knows? But yes, of course, Jacques Belay, I've been heavily inspired by because I also, I think that any one explanation is too reductive of what we're experiencing. Absolutely. I love that. What is real?

I think that's a good place to kind of leave everyone wondering here. Quit your job, man. Yeah. Quit your job. Don't like, fuck Jeff, dude. Oh, Jeff wants you. to come in extra on Saturday, be like, what is the objective nature of reality, Jeff?

Come on, Jeff. With Ben Kistel, we have our active axiom, which is time is not real, but schedules are. So yes, we know time to construct, but we have a Zoom link that goes active at 145.

Okay. Let's do it. Let's do it. It's done. It's done. Henry, brother, I know we only scratch the surface. I've got to get you back on. Such a fan. I'm so glad to be here. Love the show.

Great work. We'll keep going back and forth. You could tell the other euthologists, I'm sorry if I've made fun of them. That's an extension to my own insecurity. You can let them know. I know for a fact that it's like because we all have the same. Winnie the Pooh-shaped body. And this is just how it is.

This is just this is the lot we've been given. That is reality. Yeah, it is. Dude, before you go, please let us know where we could find everything you guys do over there and where we can learn more about you. Check out last podcast on the left at LP on the left on all the various socials. I have a bunch of different, you know, projects I'm working on. Like right now, if you want to check out, I do a show for Adult Swim called Your Pretty Faces Going to Hell. I don't do it anymore.

It's been canceled. But I just say it out of, out of just grief. remorse. And then, but we have a new series on YouTube. We have YouTube cartoons versions of it that we've been doing now. And honestly, we're doing a bunch of stuff. I'm very excited. We're writing a comic book for Dark Horse called Operation Sunshine. That's a vampire heist story that'll be coming out in October. It's really fun. You know, just like, I don't know, very lucky. And I'm here, man. I love it. See my bullshit. See my bullshit.

Because I don't really get to look at my socials, but it doesn't matter. I just post it. I basically just advertise for everything else. So it doesn't really know. It's all, I know. It all links together. Well, hey, we're going to go head over to your Patreon to continue the conversation. So everybody, I don't know when this will go up, but head over to the last podcast on the left Patreon.

We're going to continue our UFO conversation over there. And Henry, I can't wait, man, to have you back on in the near future. And we will speak soon. Thank you so much, brother. Of course, bro. I'll say it. The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to every week. But if you would like to help support the show,

we have a very active Patreon page where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your host, Ryan Sprague, and we are not going to waste any time today because we're

going to be really running the gamut tonight. UFOs, paranormal, cryptids, valet. We've got John Keel. I can't wait to talk to today's guests. I've been meaning to do this for a really long time. time and I'm so excited and honored to finally have her here. Zelia Edgar is with us today. Zelia, thank you so much for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. Well, hey, thank you so much for having me on the show. This is just, I'm really excited for

tonight. So thank you, really. Yeah, my pleasure. And I mean, we've been talking off air for a while and I said, hey, I should probably be recording because we have a lot to talk about. So again, like I said, I don't want to waste either of our time. Let's dive right in. I have to ask origin story. This is your first time on the show for any of my listeners, viewers, who don't know who Zelia is. Tell us a little about how you first got interested in the paranormal UFOs. Yeah, give us the condensed life story of Zelia, if you don't mind. Yeah, sure thing. Well, you know, it's one of those things where actually I've had a major interest in just kind of the general, like, weird for my entire life. And I blame part of this on my home state of

Wisconsin, which of course is kind of known for being just a very weird state. You know, it's got a lot of paranormal history as well as just very strange happenings and, of course, some fantastic folklore. And I did actually, I grew up kind of immersed in the folklore, particularly of southwestern Wisconsin, where my mom's family is from. So I got to grow up hearing stories like the macabre true story of coffee woods, the murder of coffee woods, and other, you know, incredibly weird, but also true stories such as the mysterious note of, incident where these two kids in the late 1800s actually vanish from inside of their locked home during a rainstorm. Very, very just weird stories. But two, actually, my family has kind of a strong history of weirdness as well. So I got to grow up hearing stories about the old haunted house where my mom grew up. She and her sister had a very bizarre

UFO encounter that happened at the time as well. And then even my grandma remembered hearing when she was a girl that one of her neighbors, actually or a friend of theirs saw this big hairy arm burst through the window of their home. So that's kind of what I grew up with. And then when I was probably, and so I gravitated towards being interested in all manner of weird stories and phenomena. And when I was probably eight years old, actually, my mom of all people thought that it would be cool to get me into studying and researching Bigfoot. And so she actually introduced me first to the Patterson Gimlin footage, because she at the time was thinking that this was kind of just a, you know, a funny hoax from the 60s and 70s. And then as she started, you know, researching it with me, because of course I latched on to it

right away. I was like, this is fantastic. She started noticing too. She's like, oh, this seems like a legitimate phenomenon. So now my mom actually has a major interest in Bigfoot, which I, again, totally latched on to. So I started at that time with a huge interest mainly in cryptozoology. And so I first thing I went to the library and got every single book I could find on the topic. One of them actually happened to be John Keel's Complete Guide to Mysterious Beings, which I think worked its way into my subconscious and manifested years later. And then a major turning point for me when I was 10 years old, I had the pleasure of meeting Linda Godfrey at one of her book signings.

And that was just, again, it was a major, major turning point for me because there I was, I was a kid, I had an interest in all this weird stuff. You know, to not many people, you know, generally speaking, have a devout interest in this sort of thing. So, you know, my family was very open to it, but as far as anyone else, it was kind of just like, you know, sort of whatever thing. And here is this adult, again, and she's from Wisconsin too, who is actively researching. She has a job in this field, and that meant the world to me to see that. A year later, I met another Wisconsin researcher, Chad Lewis, and I've been probably to, gosh, I don't know, maybe 50 of his book signings over the years.

and he is just, you know, he's fantastic too. He's written countless books on the topic. And so those were kind of the major turning points in my life that cemented my interest in the paranormal. And yeah, again, sorry, go on. No, I was going to say, that's so cool that you started at such a young age. I mean, I was the same way. I conducted my first interview with a UFO witness when I was 13. So, I mean, you can only imagine it was.

wasn't easy to kind of talk to friends about this sort of stuff. I mean, I remember getting made fun of all the time if I would bring it up. I would like secretly be reading books from the library like you about UFOs and Lochness Monster and all that good stuff. And yeah, so it's so good to know that you found those people to look up to. I was the same way. I had the, you know, those mentors that kind of guided me along the way and said, you know, it's okay. It's okay to talk about these things and research them because there are legitimate phenomena happening. So that's pretty cool. Well, I guess my next question would be, okay, so you start researching, you know, and like I said, you're not just a UFO researcher. You've looked into everything,

paranormal cryptids, esoteric, UFOs. But you did because, a state director for Mufon. So I have to ask, first of all, how did that happen? I mean, wow, that's pretty big role to take on for someone, I would assume, of your age. I mean, usually we see these state directors and they've been doing it for 20-something years. So first of all, how did you get connected with Mufon? Were there any really interesting cases that you investigated, that you're willing to share? And then what made you decide to leave the organization if you're willing to share. Oh, of course. So yeah, it was affiliated with Mufon for a relatively short time. I actually joined because I attended the Milwaukee Paracan

in 2016. They're kind of a long story, but there have been a short story contest that I entered and won. And so I was like, oh, this is fantastic. You know, got free tickets and everything. And there was actually, there was a table set up for Mufon. And I had been considering joining for very long time because that is kind of taking the leap from research to investigation. was what I was looking to do because I've always been way more research oriented as opposed to investigation, just because I didn't really know exactly how to get started with that. And so, you know, I spoke, I believe, I think it was, Chase Klatsky was there at that time. And I spoke with her and she was like, yeah, you should join the organization.

So I literally went home after the weekend and looked into it and joined. And then it was actually, I took my training for the field investigator course. And then it was, I think, either a year or two later, that I actually finalized my paperwork for it. And so, yeah, I joined on. Again, it was a very short time. I think I was a certified field investigator probably for about a year and a half, if I'm remembering correctly. And in that time, I was, I was promoted to assistant state director and then state director very quickly. And there were, I would say that there were some intriguing cases.

More often than not, though, the thing that really gets me is to see the effect that, that this phenomenon tends to have on people. And so the one that stands out in my memory, there's this guy and his sighting, I will say, it wasn't anything, you know, it wasn't like the Martians were landing, quote unquote, but he had such an effect from his sighting and he wished him to remain anonymous.

So of course I have never talked about like who he actually was or whatever, but when he finished describing what had happened to him, you know, I went through and it was very just, you know, it was a pretty, pretty far off citing, but yeah, some strange thing that was unexplained. And I asked him, I was like, well, okay, yeah, you know, this sounds like it wasn't any of our usual suspects for it being some sort of misidentification or natural phenomena.

And I was like, but do you have any other questions, you know, before I finalize this interview? And he just, he straight up asked, he was like, so what was it? And it was just, it was really seeing that effect on the witness where, you know, there are so many people who I believe more often than not, more people than not will at some point in their lives have some sort of interaction with the unexplained, whether it's, you know, ghost activity, seeing encrypted, UFOs, even just ESP phenomena. And I think with many of these people, it really is unexpected and it can call kind of normal reality into question. And so it was really interesting to kind of see that effect. And he really did simply just want to know what it was that he witnessed.

And of course, you know, I had the rather unsatisfactory answer, well, we don't really know. And so that was probably one of the most interesting cases I handled. I'm simply because of, again, the witness effect. Yeah. And I mean, that's what I'm all about. Anyone who knows my work knows. I am more about the witness than the actual event itself. And like you said, how it impacts someone's life.

And it does in so many different ways. I mean, their belief system. you know, their family dynamics, how they view and perceive the world before and after an event like this. And I think you're right. I think everyone in some way, shape, or form has had a brush with the unknown. I mean, I can't tell you how many people after that, you know, whole New York Times story exploded about UFOs and the Pentagon back in 2017. How many people finally came forward to me and were like, oh yeah, I saw something, I saw something. And I think that's what it takes, you know, to take these things seriously. There might be someone watching this interview tonight or listening who the thought never crossed their mind.

But they said, I'll check this out. And then boom, there's one more person who is going to make these topics normalized. So I think that's awesome. And I think that one in need that the witness had to ask you, what is it? What did I experience? the most responsible answer any investigator can truly give, I believe, is I don't know, because I don't think any of us truly know what is going on. We can try to explain it. We can try to find answers. And hey, if you can, awesome. Like, that's case closed. But I mean, I'm sure with Mufon, probably a vast majority of the cases remain unknown because these things are so strange and in everything in between. what made you want to take the leap and kind of move on from that and do your own thing? A lot of it had to do with, you know, I was kind of developing my own brand of what I wanted to look out for.

And so, you know, my current research, I'm really, really interested in, not to say, unified field theory for the paranormal, but kind of. I really like cases that seem to kind of transcend the boundaries that we've put up between these apparently different categories. And so I was, you know, that was kind of where I wanted to head. I didn't want to really be, I commit myself to any one particular category. And, you know, truthfully, to the caseload was a little difficult to handle. At the time that I left, I think Wisconsin only had like four or five investigators. And a few of them couldn't take cases. So it was, it was quite a responsibility.

And I, you know, the truth is, I was really happy to be part of the organization. I know there's been a lot of stuff that's gone down in the past year with it, which is unfortunate. But no, I think that a lot of the investigators are definitely in it for the right reasons. A lot of them want to know, you know, trying to figure out what this phenomenon is. So, you know, I did appreciate my time there. And it just was kind of my time to kind of move on and devote more time to my particular research. Right. And I mean, that research is very unique.

And there's definitely some things I really want to dive deep in with you. some of these people that I know that you've kind of really read up on the literature of what they've brought forward and how to infuse it into your own research and investigations. But before that, I would love to know Zelia's top three UFO cases. We live in a world of lists. People love top five, top ten, boom, boom, boom. So, yeah, what do you have for us? Are there any cases that, whether you've read about or personally, investigated. Give us your top three, if you don't mind, Zulia. Take your time. Okay, I will say this was a difficult question because my top three in anything, I'm very indecisive. It's kind of constantly changing. So for today, though, and I will preface this, my top three UFO cases, it has mainly

to do in a sense with kind of this level of absurdity or whimsy. I find that it's really interesting that this comes up so often in these UFO reports. Number three is going to be the so-called beer can aliens, even though technically the witness said that they looked a little bit more like tin cans. Apparently in Long Prairie, Minnesota, in October of 1965, a young man by the name of Jerry Townsend, who, you know, according to all reports, was an honest, decent guy. He was a host for a local radio station,

rounded a corner of the road and saw this classic rocket ship in the middle of the road. And his first thought was that no one would believe him. he wanted to actually tip it over and maintain the evidence. Well, his car shortened out. Long story short, when he got out of the car to get a better look, these little robotic tin can things came out of the rocket and started moving around almost like they were working on the machine. Now, again, this case sounds very absurd.

But I find it just intriguing because it's almost so cliche that it seems unreal. And so he drove off. and reported it to the police. And apparently there was some trace evidence of this odd oily substance on the ground, but according to some reports, the road was actually paved over shortly thereafter.

So rather interesting. My second in the top three is going to be the Kelly Hopkinsville encounter, which of course is infamous. It occurred in August of 1955. It's one of my favorites. And I mean, the facts of the case are well known by now. The initial citing was of

this strange, classic flying saucer that was shooting out rainbow-colored flames. And this was observed by a man named Billy Ray Taylor. Said saucer apparently dropped into a gully out of sight. He went inside to the Sutton family house. And this, of course, occurred in Kentucky. And no one believed him. They thought he was, you know, just joking until later that night when the house was besieged by these little luminous silver godlins, for lack of a better term.

And again, this is just one of my all-time favorite cases, simply because it is. It's so weird. You have this very, like, monster-like attack of these hobgoblins coming after the house in waves. Apparently, they tried shooting at the beast, a point-blank range. And the most they ever did, because, of course, they could float in the air, because why not, was kind of flip over and run away. I know, right? And, you know, the attacks continued through the night.

They got the authorities. Of course, they stopped as soon as they were there. The authorities left. They came back. You know, it just sounded like sheer madness. And the fact that, too, because of course, as we'll get into a bit later, the connection between fairy lore and UFOs is of huge interest to me. And certainly the fact that they were branded as the Kelly Hobgoblins

or the Hopkinsville Hobgoblins is just seriously one of my favorite things. But number one on my list, and this actually is rather unchanging, is the Simonton encounter. And of course, yes, this is my all-time favorite case. It happened in Eagle River, Wisconsin, which kind of just, you know, ups the fact that it is my, you know, all-time favorite case of Yoho Contact. And that was in April of 1961. A chicken farmer by the name of Joe Simonton was eating his breakfast when all of a sudden he heard this noise coming from outside his house. He described as like knobby tires on wet pavement.

And looking outside, he saw this really, again, this classic kind of, you know, high mid-century sort of flying out. object. He said it looked like two bowls, this bright, shiny silver, it had exhaust pipes. And it was hovering over his backyard. And so like any, you know, same person, I guess, he walked outside really close to it for a closer look. And this hatch opened up in the side of the object. And he said that there were three short men who he claimed looked like Italians inside the object. And one of them who he assumed was the leader of the bunch. He claimed that He actually, his pants had like a jogger stripe down the side, which is just, again, one of these incredibly strange and bizarre details, came to the opening, the hatch in the object, and gave him this little chalice or cup of some sort that was of the same bright silver material as the saucer. And somehow Simon Tinn claimed that he realized that they needed water.

And whether this was telepathic communication or just body language, whether, you know, maybe they didn't even need water and he just assumed they did. I don't really know. But so Simon Tin apparently completely nonplussed by this whole thing, walked back to the house, got him some water, and came back. And when he gave the entity the water, he said that he looked in and saw what he described as one of these entities cooking something over a flameless grill. And so apparently the lead entity took his interest for a desire for samples. And Simon Tin was indeed given these, as they have come to be called, alien pancakes. Then I looked up and I handed the jug up with both hands and I had that same look in his eyes, a sort of a penetrating look.

And when he took the water, I balanced myself with this hand against the machine and I stepped back a few steps. And then with that, he set the jug down and he gave me a salute with the back of his hand, a gesture of thanks, I presume. and then, well, I gave him marshala, what am I going to do? So, I noticed this little man, the same size of a man, right to the side, the right side of the halfway cooking these pancakes, which I have one here yet. He was frying these pancakes, and I pointed to him and made a gesture like eating. I thought maybe I get a conversation out of them. Nobody was saying anything. But he

He didn't say a word. He just reached over and he got a handful of them, four of them, and he handed them down to me, and they were hot and greasy. And this man cooking these pancakes, it was on a square grill-like concern. I couldn't see any flame, but it seemed to be very hot. There was smoke coming from it. And if that was their food, got him. help them because I took a bite of one of them and it tasted like a piece of cardboard and that's what they lived on no wonder they're small and with that he reached up and he closed his hatch with a heavy thud click-like in it latched and you couldn't a bit more see where that hatch was and you could see a hole in my hand and

with that the thing started to raise it's like it came down everything was time perfect it went up about 20 feet it tilled at a 45 degree straight south and shot off. Within two or three seconds, it was out of sight. Well, there I stood in the driveway with a handful of greasy pancakes, my mouth opened, wondering what the heck I'd saw. What had happened? I love this case so much.

It's amazing. Yeah. And this, again, just leads into all of the fairy lore stuff, because I know Valet talked about this case extensively. And it's hilarious, but actually in the edge of reality, that compendium of some of his discussions with Jan Heinick. he mentioned the Simonton encounter, and Heineck didn't really remember what it was, and so he kind of kept explaining, and Heinek goes,

oh, the gentleman in Wisconsin with the pancakes. Here's the thing. I mean, he tried then, am I right? Simonton actually tried. What did he have to say about these interstellar pancakes? Well, and first of all, too, barring any concerns of alien viruses or radiation or anything, yes, he did indeed. He sent a few off for analysis, which was interesting.

And she tried one, and his verdict was that they tasted like cardboard. All right. So not the best breakfast cooks out there. Unfortunately not. I don't be an interstellar pancake cafe anytime soon, I guess. Not anytime. I know, I know. That's unfortunate.

But, hey, they got better stuff to do, apparently. Well, let's touch on that. Okay, pancakes. Not pancakes specifically, but artifacts. I know this is something that you've looked at, the past or gifting is another term that we've heard in the field as well. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Things that are either exchanged during these really absurd encounters with occupants

from said UFOs, or we've even heard these theories of gifting us technology and knowledge through either abduction cases or crashes even. I mean, there's people out there that believe they purposefully crashed some of their craft on our planet so that we could try to reverse engineer the technology and come to understand it. I don't know how much I personally buy into something like that. But, Zili, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, this whole thing of the artifacts that these beings often lead behind. Why do you think this happens? You know, it's really, it's intriguing because, you know, I for one, I believe, first of all, that there is more than one right answer. to many of the questions posed by any different apparent type of paranormal phenomena.

And the UFO phenomenon is no exception to that. So I don't discount the concept that there may be actual genuine physical extraterrestrial beings traveling in interplanetary vehicles. I think that the vast majority of sightings may be something different entirely. And, you know, honestly, the artifacts given to people by these occupants or so-called occupants sometimes proved to be really good evidence of that. in the case of Simon Tinsonson's pancakes, you know, it's amazing when I first read this case and I heard the verdict by the Food and Drug Administration that the pancakes were composed entirely of terrestrial ingredients. My first thought, because I read of this case when I was still looking at all different types of paranormal phenomena is very separate.

My knee-jerk reaction was that there was some massive cover-up over these obviously Martian pancakes to simplify it quite a bit. And that obviously they weren't made of terrestrial ingredients and it was just a cover-up. As time has gone on, however, because indeed the pancakes were analyzed to have been made out of buckwheat hulls, a substance like Crisco, and I think bran or something like that, and they were all perfectly terrestrial ingredients. The way that I look at things now, I think that this is evidence that some encounters with, you know, UFOs, some encounters with crypt, some encounters with ghosts, may be sort of the same phenomena, that these are just simply manifestations of something that we don't yet understand, something that's been with us for a very, very long, long time. And especially, too, if looking into this pancake even further. Bel-A pointed out the comparison between that and fairy lore, you know, even down to the buckwheat hults, there are actual folkloric accounts of very similar cakes, literally being given to people by the fairies. There was an account from the 1600s that involved what was believed to be a

demonic possession that started, surprisingly enough, with a pancake, an unleavened cake. and even the Icelandic elves, I believe, have connections to pancakes. But enough about pancakes. As far as other artifacts, you know, Keel really nailed down an Operation Trojan horse. He called it the artifact game. And, well, again, I don't really discount anything. I think that there is the potential for, you know, like you were saying, maybe there are even genuine vehicles that have crash.

Maybe there are genuine artifacts that have been given to people from these other intelligences. However, I think in the vast majority of these cases, it is unfortunately almost kind of of a trickster-like element. You have, I mean, again, Simonton's pancake is a perfect example. You have something that's supposed to be extraterrestrial, turns out to be terrestrial. There are other cases where metals that are supposed to be some sort of fancy space metal end up simply being common earth alloys. There was a case from West Virginia, I believe in the 30s, where a man walked into what appeared to be some sort of strange crashed object, and he actually took part of it. And later in the night, this guy who looked like a soldier from World War I actually showed up at his door and demanded that he hand over the evidence.

And if you go into abduction scenarios, Betty Hill was given a book that apparently would confirm her experience. And of course, this was regained through aggression hypnosis, which is a lot of people have a lot of different ways of thinking about that. And then at the last moment, it was taken away. I feel like in many of these cases, it is just evidence of this very very evidence of this very, very different ways. evidence of this very trickster-like element were given things that are then taken away or contradict the claims by the witness. So I think there's an overwhelming aspect of that throughout many of these cases where evidence is presented. Yeah, yeah, you're right. The trickster element just seems to play such a big role. And then, you know, when you add every layer on top of that,

whether it's, you know, cultural perception of an experience, I mean, I know for me personally, I've interviewed hundreds of people who have claimed close encounters or claimed abduction experiences. And some of them took it as a spiritual or miraculous experience. It was it was angelic. And then others say it was demonic and it was terrible and scary. And others just straight up said, no, man. Like that was a gray alien abducting me from, you know, from the Pleiades system. I don't know.

So I think it's fascinating how much that. culture plays a big role in all this. And like you mentioned, valet has dug so deeply into all this in Passport to Magonia and Messengers of Deception, which I know is a book you really love. So yeah, what did you take away from that book with valet? I know we have a lot of students of Valet probably watching this. What did you, what do you take away most from Valet's work, I guess so. Boy, that's a hefty question. I know, that's all right. That's all right. I mean, the first, probably the first thing that occurred to me when I first started reading

Valet's work was the connection between UFOs, of course, and fairy lore. But even more than that, there's the connection between UFOs and all types of belief in, you know, contact with other intelligences, whether it is demonic, whether it is, you know, religious even. And so that, those patterns, were very apparent in his work. So that's probably like the first thing that occurred to me. But then messengers of deception, I do absolutely. I mean, honestly, passport to mcgonian messengers of deception are tied for my favorite ballet book. And that one, you know, when I

first read it, it really all tied in this concept that, you know, there is a genuine phenomena happening. And I think that it has been completely not necessarily ignore, but it's always been relegated kind of to the fringe. It's something that is so integral to the human experience. Not simply UFOs, but just the paranormal in general. And unfortunately, this really integral part of the human experience, you know, so often, it's kind of just, it's trivialized a little bit. And I really took that away from messengers of deception that this is a cultural issue that we need to work out, that it is something that, you know, I personally feel that there is definitely a reflective nature to paranormal phenomenon. And I think that

especially with UFOs, there's a cultural give and take. And that as much as we are giving some of our, you know, we're almost clothing the phenomenon in our beliefs of the time, I think the phenomenon does go out of its way to confirm certain aspects of that. For what purpose? I don't really know. I don't know if there is genuinely a purpose or if it is just the workings of some sort of, you know, maybe even play of consciousness that we don't completely understand. And Messengers of Deception really kind of clarified that for me,

especially that last chapter where he starts delving into some of the synchronicities that played out in his life. It just, you know, it's intriguing because I know John Keel, another of my favorites, definitely talked about that too, how it seems like the phenomenon starts taking an interest in people who have an interest in it. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I actually, I pulled a quote from Keel that I actually put in the intro of my book. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. If you could look far enough into the empty sky, you would be able to see the back of your own head. And that just, when I read that one line, it just spoke to me so much personally because I was like, hell yeah, man. Like this, whatever this stuff is we're dealing with,

it is so reflective of us as human beings. And, you know, what we, it's like a dance. I really feel like it's a dance between us and these phenomena, and we bring just as much to it as they do. At times, I could be completely off on that. But tell us about Keogh. I mean, this is another one of your big heroes in the field from the work that I've seen you do. Eighth Tower, obviously, is the big one, right? Oh, yeah.

That, I have to tell you, because, again, I read strange creatures from time and space when I was probably eight or nine. And I did not even realize, I just thought it was not a cryptid book, you know. And so it was years later, I didn't know who Kiel was. I read so many books at that time. You know, it was just in the back catalog of things I had read when I was a kid. And years later, I'm reading, you know, strange, I think it's now called the complete guide of mysterious beings. It's been published under a few different titles.

And I'm like, holy smokes, because this was kind of like my holy grail. I'd remember this fantastic cryptic book. And I only remembered a few different key parts of it. And I literally I'd spent years looking for it. And all of a sudden I'm reading, you know, John Keels, the guy of mysterious beings. I'm like, this is it. So it was years later that I realized I'd actually read him as a kid.

But no, my first book consciously, that was John Keel was the Mothman Prophecies. And I read that, gosh, when I was 16 or 17. And the funny thing is that is not what really drove home the concept that different types of paranormal phenomena were related for me. That was Operation Trojan Horse, which I read shortly thereafter. But the eighth tower, which was what I read after Operation Trojan Horse,

you know, I have to tell you, again, the paranormal, it's been a constant for me. I read that book and I had to go on a break for like two weeks because, and I found this out much later for my friend Steve Ward, apparently keel, the thing is with the eighth tower is that half of it is fantastic because half of it is just strictly theoretical talk. It's his discussion on his concept at the super spectrum, which is a massive concept for me. And then the other half of it was really depressing. It was almost like matrix level paranoia, you know, that these other intelligences, you know, literally the eighth tower, quote unquote, rules the world.

And it was, it was a lot. And so for about two weeks, I was just like, okay, you know what? It's fine. You're just going to take a break. You're going to figure things out. Well, years later, my friend Steve Ward told me that apparently the publishers had wanted a hook because the Eighth Tower was mainly stuff that was pulled from the Mothman Prophecies before it went to press.

And so the publishers still wanted a hook. They didn't just want this theoretical stuff. And so Kiel's like, fine, I'll give you a hook. And the hook was this insane lovecraftian matrix style terror trip. So, but yeah, now the Eighth Tower is actually one of my favorites. It's probably one of my most often referenced of Kiel's books. That's pretty cool. And yeah, I mean, it was terrifying to read that other aspect.

of the book. I remember kind of feeling the same way. Like I was like, oh, God, no, this is too much. I can't go that far. And I think it's important, too, to step away from these things every now and again. I mean, I know you probably have a personal life outside of the paranormal and UFO research, like the rest of us, you know, and it's good to step away because then you gain, I think, a more of an appreciation for what you are doing, what you are diving into. And I think it's healthy, too. I mean, if I was UFOs 24-7, I don't know if I would be able to function

as a normal adult human being. But I mean, it's hard to when you have people like Keel. This is another quote that you would put in one of your blog posts, which I loved. Kiel said, we cannot name the place where flying saucers and hairy monsters come from, but we do know where they go. The poor slabs literally melt.

What does that mean? I don't know how to interpret that quote, but I love it so much. So what does that mean to you? Well, to me personally, as Keel so eloquently put, it's kind of a reference to the apparently temporal nature of so many of these manifestations, that they seem to genuinely be around

for only a short amount of time. And almost once their purpose is served, again, as he so eloquently put, perhaps they melt. Ivan Sanderson actually thought the same thing. Now, I don't know technically if they literally melt or if they simply kind of do meld away. But I think it is, I love that quote so much too. And Keel, his writing style is just, it's killer. I love it so much. But I do think, I do tend to think that a lot of these manifestations are here only for a short amount of time.

And I think that they may even be shaped quite a bit by the subconscious or conscious of the witness or even, you know, if you have a bunch of witnesses or even the culture of the time. And so, yeah, I think it's a definite reference to the very temporary nature of these manifestations. Yeah, yeah. Well, while we're on that, sort of the temporal nature to all this, being that, let's say there is some sort of string theory between all of these UFOs, the paranormal cryptids. which I am completely open to. And this is a discussion I'm having with you tonight. That's unlike any we've really done on the show before. So I think people are really going to find this interesting.

I don't usually get into a lot of these areas point by point. So I love that I have you here to talk about these things because I've been dying to cover these things. So Stone Tape Theory, is this something you're familiar with? In the world of the supernatural, It's any event, a ghost or a spirit. Oh, yes. You don't talk about.

And loop, like, rewinding, playing, rewinding, playing. So I love to know, do you think that goes for all of this? I mean, if we're seeing, let's say, the Phoenix Lights in 1997 in Phoenix, Arizona, is this the first time that UFO event happened? or has it been replaying, you know, in our own time and space? I mean, I know that's a really weird question, but what do you think? No, I actually love that. And yeah, now that you mentioned that, it kind of is in line with Einstein actually came up for a theory of why dowsing might work.

And it was that there's almost like a memory of the earth and that the human being acts as a conductor through which then these rods will literally conduct the energy from the memory of the earth. And again, you know, really interesting, really weird kind of vague stuff. I think that, again, I think there's more than one right answer to a lot of things. But you know, you do see a lot of times too with hauntings where it's almost like there is just kind of a record playing on loop. You know, some people who claim to be able to, you know, their mediums or they have the, you know, psychic ability. They claim that they'll walk into a place. And it's actually not a ghost or haunting per se. They're just reading the memory or the energies of that area.

And it's almost downloading directly into their minds. I think that theory is as good as any, and I do think too that in some of these cases, I could definitely, like even regarding UFOs or cryptids, that could definitely be part of it. I think that there are definitely, you know, many cases where that doesn't seem quite as feasible, but the truth is I'm one of my only core beliefs, because somewhere between I want to believe and then John Keel's belief is the enemy, that's kind of where I try to stand. But one core belief that I can nail down is that I do believe the world is a lot stranger and more unconventional than we think.

So, yeah, I can see that being an explanation for some things. Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, if we did find all the answers that we seek in this life, I don't think I want that, personally. I think this journey and just the weirdness of it all is what is most rewarding. I think, and I do think that by the end, it's far stranger than just little green men coming from another planet or the disembodied spirit. of someone you loved.

I think it goes beyond levels we can even imagine, which is exciting, scary, beautiful, awkward, everything in between. But hey, I think that's the beauty of all of this. This is another really cool thing that you're looking into

that really never crossed my mind. UFO occupant clothing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone really discuss this. You know, cases of aliens in overalls or a silver suit or, you know, an armor of some sort. So what is this you're looking into now when it comes to occupants and their clothing? So this kind of, this, you know, particular aspect, I kind of arrived at it from two very different things. And the one is, aside from the paranormal, I have a major interest

actually in like costuming. I just, there's something about, you know, I've always, Halloween's been my favorite holiday. That's kind of where it started. I mean, even as a kid, you know, I would just, I loved dressing up and things like that. And, you know, as I've grown up, I'm really intrigued by the concept that, you know, how do we portray ourselves? And especially, you know, you see in costuming, it's meant to convey ideas. It's meant to convey the character. And so that interest has always been there. And then I was actually reading about, I did a video on the Flatwoods Monster.

And of course, you know, it's by now very, very well known. Flatwood's monster was this big, you know, it was kind of almost robotic in nature. And there's a lot of people debating what it actually was, you know, was it on some sort of hold off psychological experiment from the World Wars? Was it possibly, you know, some sort of monster who really knows? But either way, what occurred to me as I was writing about this case is how very robotic the witnesses described this being. And it hit me.

I was suddenly like, you know, truthfully, this is what we should be looking for. this is what we should be seeing, if indeed all, you know, UFO sightings and UFO occupants sightings are due to extraterrestrial biological entities. And, you know, then it started occurring me that on the flip side, when most people report UFO occupants, they are reporting these, you know, things that are wearing no sort of protective gear, no, you know, respiratory equipment. And I know this is a very simplistic view on what could be an incredibly, incredibly advanced civilization. But again, it just kind of stood out to me. And then I started looking at, okay, well, what are they wearing? And time and time again, you get these encounters that seem a lot more in line with fairy lore.

I mean, Simonton's, again, is a perfect example. You have these little men wearing black knit caps in the Honeycutt encounter of 1955 in actually Loveland, Ohio, where the frogman was cited years later. There were the sighting of these three asymmetrical, almost gnome-like creatures. and they were wearing what appeared to be almost like tunics or something like that. So you see these details over and over again.

And then, too, the really intriguing thing to me is that you also start seeing trends. Like a big trend in the 60s, you see a lot of these UFO occupants wearing what they described as boiler suits. And so my interest here, because again, I do, I think that there may, there is a huge connection to paranormal phenomena, especially UFO occupants and subconscious of the witness. However, I think that this might even be a way to kind of nail down what is something that we are influencing. What is something malleable? What may be a construction or projection that's being shaped by the observer? And what is genuinely something else?

So, you know, maybe when we see these trends, is that just the culture of the time kind of shaping these different scenarios? Or is it indeed, possibly in the case of these boiler suit entities, is that just the genuine entity? right there. And then too, even now, today, the gray is definitely the symbol of our time. And another intriguing thing is that a lot of people, a lot of abductees and experiencers will even claim that the grays almost appear to be a suit. Not that they're wearing a protective suit, but that they are the suit or they are the drone. So, yeah, this is just one little tiny aspect of the phenomenon that is just incredibly intriguing to me. Yeah. And I think I remember,

communion with Whitley Streber or Travis Walton with fire in the sky, both claimed that these were suits of some sort, that the actual entity was within it, which was very fascinating that both would claim such things. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I know there are certain researchers out there who have looked at the different symbols that people have claimed of seeing on these suits and trying to find patterns with that. But, again, Again, I think you're right, there's such a trickster element to all of this and ties to folklore and the fairy folk-like trickster element to that. So I love it. I love how these phenomena just always keep us on our toes and love to mess with us because we deserve it.

I think we do. That being said, I got to ask you about Ivan T. Sanderson, another one of the people that you really look up to. And this really interesting resurgence, I think, in the last year or so. of the UFO research community looking at U.S.Os, you know, these UFOs that seem to either come out of or go into the water. I mean, a couple weeks ago in Hawaii, there was a big case where something went into the water and then came back out. And we're hearing rumors that this Pentagon task force has photos of a craft emerging from the ocean. I mean, it's crazy. And it just adds another layer to all of this is the water.

Have you ever come across any cases out in Wisconsin with lakes or bodies of water and UFOs? Yeah, what do you think of all of that stuff? Well, there is a definite connection, I would say, especially with UFOs and water. And, again, too, this even traverses the boundary for all paranormal phenomena. But, yeah, Wisconsin, I know that I believe it's Lake Superior. is supposed there's there's kind of an almost urban legend that there's a base in Lake Superior and there have been sightings you know in any of the Great Lakes of things going into a coming out of the water and yeah no I haven't see Sanderson because he really did nail that down

in invisible residence and he is he's just intriguing because of course he was a naturalist first and foremost and you can definitely see that trailing through all of his writings and so even if you know I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions that he necessarily necessarily came to, but I love logic by which he arrived at them, and his research was definitely groundbreaking. But no, in Invisible Residence, he really propounded the concept that, you know, it's true. The bodies of water on our planet, I mean, the oceans are just unfathomably unexplored, even today. And so he propounded this concept that, you know, there could have been kind of concurrent evolution and that there may be some sort of highly advanced civilization,

literally in our oceans, kind of right under our noses, so to speak. And it is true, there's, you know, a huge connection to water in sightings of UFOs. And again, U.S.Os as they're known then. And I think the intriguing thing to me is, you know, almost when does it stop being a UFO? I think it was Sanderson, who when he asked, when someone asked if he believed in UFOs, he said, I didn't know they did fly, you know. And that is the intriguing concept is it's like we do have these things that are spotted in the waters. We still label them as UFOs.

And of course, some of them do take off then. So I guess that makes sense. But, yeah, no, his other research, too, into kind of like biological UFOs is a major interest of mine as well, and that he really discussed in uninvited visitors. Right. I would love, if you wouldn't mind kind of sharing that idea of biological UFOs. We've heard of these things kind of being living organisms in our skies. So, yeah, if you don't mind expunding on that a little bit. Yeah, sure thing.

So pretty much, and this actually, this interest in particular was kicked off by a personal experience I had. It was many years ago, my mom and sisters and I were watching a lunar eclipse actually. And off on the horizon, we saw these, they can only be described, it's almost looking like these kind of amoeba type objects. I know it sounds very strange. But it was just, and they were, you know, really like moving quickly kind of along the horizon line. These very, they almost looked bioluminescent. Yeah, just amoeba type objects. And we watched them for, I want to say, maybe 20 minutes, half an hour while the eclipse was going on.

And so that kicked off major interest. I started looking up, you know, what could this possibly be, thinking maybe it was even atmospheric phenomena or something like that. And as it turns out, there are many people who have described things that appear to almost be organic objects up in our skies. And Ivan Sanderson, you know, the thing is, and you can always. tell that he really does kind of trace from the you know the background of being a biologist because man he really you know in uninvited visitors he kind of does take it to the absolute limit and the terrible thing is you can follow his logic all the way to him describing how there may be amoeba ships from other planets carrying other biological life forms now i'm not going to go that

far um but i do believe that there's enough room again there's just there's so much room even on our planet for things to exist that we currently don't know about And so, you know, yeah, I think that there's the potential that there may be these organisms, very much unlike life as we understand it, living in our upper atmospheres. It's so fascinating. And I know it's, again, the oceans hold so many mysteries that I think we should be exploring more than we are the outer reaches of space, for sure. So it's so good to see, you know, NASA, which we usually think of as going out into space, doing so much more work in looking at our oceans and the climate and all these issues we have

on our planet that we only have one of until we start colonizing Mars or the moon or what have you. So no, I think you're right. I think we've only scratched the surface of these phenomena here on the ground and up in space. But below, I think, is where it's really bad. So, I hope you keep going down that path. I'm almost scared to see what they come up with, but I know. I've read too much HP Lovecraft, man, you know. That's totally fair. Well, I just read something yesterday where a scientist was claiming that, oh, my gosh, where was it?

Europa or, oh, God, it's escaping me right now where they said they were octopus-like aliens on the moon or the planet. And that just freaked me out. I hate tentacled things. So if that's what aliens end up being or, you know, these heptopods from arrival, I'm done. I'm done for. I don't want anything to do with it. For some reason, I don't have very many recurrent dreams, but some of them always involve giant squids. And I am like, like simultaneously, I love, I actually love like the concept of octopus.

They're very interesting creatures. They have high, you know, high level of intelligence. But, man, I, oh my gosh, they also just freak me out. Yeah, I blame Lovecraft. He started on it. Well, I think kind of Roselia, and I know my internet's being a little wonky, I will edit this all to be smooth. I apologize. Let's see, I just have a few more questions if that's cool. Yeah, totally. Awesome. This is awesome, by the way, so, yeah.

Oh, good. I'm glad you're enjoying it. Again, I don't like it to just be like the same song and dance over and over. But let's see. Okay, here we go. Terminology is and language plays such a big role in all of this. How a certain witness interprets and experience and how they convey it to other people through the language that they know and have been conditioned to use. That's always fascinated me as well. And one of the big terms is UFO. And within the last couple years, it's completely been changed.

to UAP. So as a UFO researcher and someone who's been in this for a while, do you care about the difference between these two? Are they different to you personally? And what should people be using, in your opinion? You know, for the most part, I think that when people say either one, they're referring to the same concept, if that makes sense. Now, technically, I know that UAP, it does encapsulate a lot more. Because again, in Sanderson, I think even ballet have both kind of been on the bandwagon, at least in some of their books, that a lot of these things, they don't seem to fly. And, you know, it's kind of even up in the air as to whether or not they are technically objects or, you know, just simply, again, like a phenomenon. So, you know,

technically, on that basis, I do prefer the term UAP. I will say that I pretty much almost exclusively when I'm talking or doing videos, use the term UFO simply because that's the more general term. Honestly, though, I've listened to some of Keel's interviews, and he legitimately called them UFOs, which I feel like is pretty fantastic, too, because then you're using, you know, the general term, but you're still just kind of calling it its own thing. So I've almost considered doing that, but I haven't commit to it so far. Yeah, yeah, I believe, yeah, the proper term is UFO. And we have to remember, too, like UFO. was coined by the Air Force to kind of downplay the high strangeness of these things people were reporting.

It's just an object. It's probably a balloon. It's probably Venus. Like, it's just unidentified. It's fine. But then you start talking biological UFOs or orbs, which is another big thing you've looked into across the spectrum of, is it a UFO? Is it a paranormal experience in everything? So yeah, terminology can completely change our perception of all of this.

So I love you AP personally. I think you're right. I think it kind of broadens everything. And I hope it eventually catches on. But that nostalgic feel of UFO will never go away, no matter how hard we try in my personal. Referring to anything seen up there as a flying saucer too. I mean, talk about just mid-century vibes, you know. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Well, I would love your thoughts on the current state of, I guess, uphology. We have the U.S. government creating a task force to look into these things, and they've got something like 140 days at this point to kind of provide their findings to the public. What do you make of all this? I mean, this is a whole other aspect of the whole UFO topic other than valet and keel. like we're talking straight up government involvement in this issue. So do you think anything's going to come of this? Is it good?

Is it bad? What are your personal thoughts? I hate to be a pessimist. But truthfully, I don't anticipate much on coming from it. I will say whenever I see, because, you know, honestly, 2020 has been a banner year for many reasons. And it's also been a banner year for UFOs hitting the news, kind of slid in between everything else that's been going on. And so, you know, honestly, when this came out about the new UIP task force,

I wasn't even really that surprised. It almost seemed kind of part for the course. Of course, the thing that I can see coming from it is the fact that it may possibly have the potential to normalize it for people and make it more okay to submit sightings and things like that. However, I say that tentatively because on the flip side, depending on what conclusions are drawn, I mean, it could have exemptions. the opposite effect. So I will say any new information is always, you know, it's good information.

So I'm glad to, you know, if there are any legitimate reports that are given to the public that can be looked at, you know, I'm excited for that. But as far as to, I believe that a big part of the UFO phenomenon is it's just so tied to human consciousness is kind of where I'm at currently. And I don't think that any of those answers will really even become close to being figured out through any of these programs. Maybe, maybe I'll be wrong, but that's kind of where I'm sure. I mean, it's interesting. We look at what the government has looked at in the past through declassified files.

I mean, everything from remote viewing to teleconesis to, yeah. And I mean, it's crazy. And look, hey, try everything, is my opinion. So I do tend to agree with you. I think this is a very militarized. perception of this entire thing and just a way for certain parts of the government to get more funding.

Let's be completely honest. To look at what could potentially be threats to our nation. And they will give any money to the U.S. government to defend and to fight against threats. So I don't know. I'm kind of pessimistic as well. I don't think we're going to get much from this thing. if we get anything, I'll be surprised and I'll eat crow.

But yeah, I tend to agree with you. I think it's a way to kind of control the narrative to the public of what you have goes are. And again, stripping it of the high strangeness that it's always had. So I'm not holding my breath. I think civilian researchers like yourself and others out there doing their own work is where it's truly at and having conversations like this. So, yeah, just keep up the good work. Keep fighting your own fight like the rest of us.

We'll let the government do their own thing. Yeah. But speaking of your own things, I've got to ask about the YouTube channel before we go. Tinfoil hat. Tell us all about it. And also, just that image, tinfoil hat, it conjures so much about conspiracy theory.

And 2020, is chock full of it. And I don't know what's happened in the past, God, four or five years when it comes to conspiracy theory, but it's gone down a dark, dark path that I don't think a lot of people really saw happening. And I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Like, where do you think the current state of conspiracy theory is with everything going on in the world? And how does it connect to what we do in the UFO field? Boy, that, yeah, it is true. I almost feel like it's really odd. And I'll say too right away, yeah, my YouTube channel, it's kind of ironic,

but it didn't even occur to me how conspiracy issues sounded when I came up with name. And actually, I didn't come up with the name. It was my mom. I was literally, I had just started the channel. And I was talking to her, and I couldn't cope with the name. I'm terrible at naming things. And she was like, well, what, like, so what do you want to call it? You know, what's your message?

You know, what are you trying to present? And I was like, well, you know, I just don't want to come across as just another tinfoil hat. And she was like, that's it. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, just another tinfoil hat. That's perfect. I was like, you know what? It's catchy.

It kind of has that, again, almost kind of nostalgic sort of vibe that I really like. And so I went with it. And the funny thing is, is that genuinely, too, I've never been much into conspiracies. They've always kind of been like a tangible part of my research. Because, of course, if you're in the UFO field or even in the paranormal field at large, you know, you can't throw a brick without hitting a conspiracy theory unfortunately and I do agree I think that you know just I think a lot of it does have to do unfortunately with the internet and the ease of information which is fantastic but it's also a double-edged sword and so I think that things just they really

have like you said exploded recently um you know just things gain speed and then it's like unstoppable and all of a sudden you have an alternate you know i don't know just a completely different way of handling all of this stuff. It's just it's absolutely all over the place. This is just kind of sprawling sprawling thing. Of course, too, you know, there's just so much division, so many different places. And it's, it's such a bummer for me personally because I've always kind of, in a weird way, viewed the paranormal as kind of a unifying force. Like, no matter where you are in time or space, you know, people have always been experiencing the unknown. And so for me, it's, you know, it is a very kind of unifying concept.

And yeah, you just, it's weird because right off of that, you have something that, man, people really just go at it. Yeah, it's tough. You know, I struggle every day with, you know, specifically what's going on here in America, but then the whole concept overall of conspiracy theory and kind of the world of social media and how quick things grow.

and it's very parasitic in a way. And I think you're right. I think it's done more to divide us than unify us, which I agree with you. I think these topics are what we all can kind of get together on. And I mean, I will have little scuffles on whatever, Facebook or Twitter with someone who doesn't have the same political views as I have or whatnot, but we can always come back to UAPs or the first.

paranormal and you're right that is what unifies us so i think again these things uh make us more human than i think anything truly can so um yeah it's good to it's good to know we're in a good place when it comes to these topics still be unifying because i think you're right if anything is going to save the world it's this stuff i firmly believe i think even valet did nail down in messengers of deception keel brought up this concept too he's like you need just straight up pro-human propaganda, bring in a flying saucer, you know, bring in the others, the outsiders, you know, from literally outer space. And that is suddenly, you know, it is, it's just this kind of unifying force for, you know, of course, in Keel's mind, it was very negative. So for better or worse, apparently. But for me, at least, it's always been, I don't know, the paranormal in general has just always been a positive thing. Yeah, yeah. A little from column Keel, little from column valet. We're all set. Well, I got to ask you this. Being as you've been doing. this for a while and you've really dug into a lot of different things. And please excuse the ambulance outside my apartment. Welcome to New York. What advice would you give to younger people

getting involved in these topics? Again, like it's so easy to hop on YouTube and type in UFOs and just be like go down a rabbit hole. So I think it's awesome that younger people are getting interested in these topics because for so long, like, you and I were the youngest people looking at this stuff. Yeah. And now or not, which is kind of refreshing. So, yeah, what advice would you give to those just getting involved in these really weird things we do?

Well, the first advice, I would say, is definitely just, it's okay to be interested in this stuff. I know that, you know, I was lucky enough that, yeah, my mom, her side of the family, was very open to it, even if they don't, you know, believe necessarily in everything that I'm discussing. or everything that I was interested in, they were open to it. And so I was very lucky to have that growing up. But a lot of people do have a stigma kind of with paranormal phenomena. So literally, it's okay to be interested in this. And also, too, I mean, at least from my standpoint, I think it's fantastic to be interested in this. And yeah, you know, a lot of people will disagree.

You know, I can't tell you how many times, you know, people would be like, that's weird or, well, that, it doesn't exist. In high school, actually, I tried to write a paper on dogman sightings. in Wisconsin. And my teacher told me, she was like, you can't do this. It has to be real. So I gave her the stack of books I was referencing. So, you know, just know that like there is definitely a value to this. And also too, definitely don't believe 100% of what you read. You know, try and find researchers and writers that you, you know, can really kind of find something that you admire about them or like about them. And go with that, but don't even follow that blindly. I mean, I don't agree with everything that John Keill ever said.

So just, you know, follow your interests wherever you go with that. So that's what I think. I think if there's anything I've learned through all this is don't be afraid to change your mind because you're going to do it on a daily basis when it comes to this. And it's frustrating. But, hey, again, these things keep us on our toes, which I think, you know, keeps me going. It's that journey. It's not the destination.

So I guess kind of wrapping things up. What do you want from all this, Celia? Like, let's get deep for a minute. I mean, we got the origin story of how you got interested in it. But what do you want at the end of the day when it comes to looking into these things and having these like mind-altering conversations with people all over the world about these topics? What do you personally want? Do you want answers, vindication?

Yeah, give it to us. Again, I know that's a loaded question. Well, you know, it's interesting because speaking of Journey versus Destination, when I started with this, I wanted to find the proof. I wanted to find Bigfoot. And that was like, that was kind of my life goal. I just wanted to, yeah, prove it. And as time has gone on, you know, I'm not even saying that proof won't be available for certain things. Like actually, Bigfoot's a great example.

I think there may be an actual population of some undiscovered animal like that. So, yeah, go ahead, find Bigfoot. me, especially regarding more high strangeness research and the entirety of all these different types of phenomena. Now it's kind of just more about, of course, I really want more than anything kind of understanding. I would really like to understand something about, you know, the mode by which these things manifest or project, you know, their connection to us and, you know, possibly what is sourced in our subconscious, what are we causing, what is truly the other, whatever that other may be. So I think understanding in any regard is probably my ultimate kind of dream

goal. But for the time being, what I want is something that I actually get quite a bit, being able to see that, yeah, a lot of people are interested in this and a lot of people take this seriously. And to share that interest with people, that means the world to me. So kind of, yeah, kind of a bunch of answers for that question. No, that's perfect. I mean, again, like I've made some of the most amazing friends and colleagues through this topic that I know I never would have met in this life had I not been interested in it. So I'm so thankful and fortunate for that. You know, people like yourself that we can have these conversations without stigma, without ridicule. And again, I'm going to take something from this conversation we had tonight that another listener will not

or another listener will or that you'll take away from it. And that's awesome, you know, that we can like just hash it out and bring more questions to the table. And I have to thank you for coming on today and really getting into the weeds with us. Again, we don't do this often on somewhere in the sky. So it was really refreshing for me. Well, thank you again for inviting me on. This was just like fantastic. Seriously, super fun discussion.

So really thank you so much. Awesome. Well, before we go, tell us where can we find everything you're up to on the YouTube channel. I know you're always working, you're always doing something. So, yeah, where can we find everything you're up to zoo? So my, like, kind of headquarters is just another tinfoil hat.com. So that's where I post whatever I'm possibly doing at the moment. I'm trying to, I'm actually starting to do book reviews on there, too.

Try to post kind of more as like a blog. So, yeah, just another tinfoil hat.com. And then I have the YouTube channel, which is also called, if you can believe it, just another tinfoil hat. So, yeah. And, yeah. Keeping it on brand. I love it. Well, again, I have to thank you for coming on today as a first-time guest. And I'd love to have you back on because we really only scratched the surface. But I know you have a lot of research to get to. So, Zelia, thank you once again for coming on somewhere in the skies. Well, thank you so much, too. And yeah, anytime that would be fantastic.

Welcome to Anama Khan. Anamacan is a virtual conference on everything anomalous, live streaming on YouTube. YouTube, Twitter X, and on Twitch. Join us on September 1st and 2nd, as over two dozen speakers give presentations on everything from UFOs and aliens to ghosts and the paranormal, from Bigfoot and Lake Monsters to witchcraft and the occult. It's all happening at Anamakan.

And most importantly, it's completely free. To learn more about our speakers and the event, visit Anamacan.com. We'll see you on September 1st and 2nd for Anamacan. This is somewhere in the skies. and Brian Sprague. Fred Anderson, welcome back to somewhere in the skies. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's such a pleasure to be back. You know, even if I, it was a recording the last time, if I remember it correctly. So I wasn't really there live, you know, or here live. And like I mentioned to you before we started here, I am a little bit starstruck to be on somewhere in the skies.

I must admit that. So now I'm like, I've been writing to my friends and my partner. And, you know, I hope it doesn't sound silly now. You know, this Swedish accent, Swedish chef. I don't know. No. First of all, that's extremely flattering. I'm honored to have you on.

And there's a reason we're having you on. And that's because we're going to talk all about Swedish UFOs and the Swedish men in black. And I couldn't think of a better person to come on to talk about that. So no, it's a true honor to have you here. And yes, we should mention you were featured in episode 259 of somewhere in the skies where I covered Nordic UFOs and a few cases out of Sweden. And you had written a brilliant article. And I reached out to you. And I said, is it okay if I feature this in the episode?

And then it dawned on me. I'm like, what would be even better? Let's just have Fred tell the story. And you are so gracious and kind to let me do that. And, hey, people love that episode, as I know, they're going to love this one. So, yeah, let's, I guess let's kind of dive into the subject we're going to be discussing. And that is the Swedish men in black. Now, when people think of the men in black, they often think of the, obviously, the movies with Will Smith and these very old cases in the United States.

But this phenomenon has happened worldwide. We've heard of cases all over the world. And you were able to dig up several Swedish men in black cases as well, which I was never keen to. and I know a lot of our audience may never have known these either. So we're going to be talking about that tonight. But before we even do that, I have to ask the origin story of Fred Anderson. How did you first get involved with UFOs? What sparked your interests?

Well, it's very, very easy to show. This book here, The Outruglia Tefartan, this is the book by E. Eugène-Semichov. He was a Russian Swedish journalist, you know, in popular science. You know, we wrote about space, about science in general. And he also had a keen interest in

UFOs and aliens, but he was also a skeptic. He was really, really skeptical. So this book specifically is, I mean, it's clearly his, he really doesn't believe what he's writing about, but you can also sense that he has such a passion for it. He's so curious about these cases. And there's, you know, Swedish cases. There is maybe foremost American cases. This is the first time I heard about the Socorro incident with Lonisamora. And it's still one of my favorite cases out there, actually. So this one, I think my

mother found it for me at some second-hand store and, you know, I was stuck directly into the subject. So, I mean, I blame everything on this book, you know. I love that. I blame everything on my UFO sighting and a book as well by Staten Friedman, which was Crash at Corona about the Roswell UFO crash. So I know well, my friend, how much these books can kind of take a hold of you. whether imaginary or real. And that kind of plays into what we're going to be talking about tonight in terms of the men in black. Are they real?

Have people actually encountered these people or are they even people? I know we're going to discuss later some of the theories on what the men in black might be. But before we even do that, okay, so you have this interest in UFOs. you write over, you write your articles over at Medium, and that's where I found this one. And it really caught my attention. So I got to ask, what inspired you to look into the men in black? Well, I have a tendency to, you know, when I get a fixed idea,

and I can't stop thinking about it. It's, it's, I don't know if I, somewhere in the spectrum, but I can't stop looking into something when I start thinking about it. And when it was the case with the men in black in Sweden is because I couldn't find them at all. It was, there was like no information. We have a lot of very, very interesting flying saucer cases in Sweden. We have humanoids, we have other kinds of being. We have a lot of ghosts, so we have a lot of these things.

But there was almost nothing written about men in black. And when I looked in old UFO magazines and newsletters and books from Sweden, they were often just mentioned briefly. So I actually contacted Hocan Blumke, who's a brilliant Swedish researcher, mostly about UFOs in relation to the esoteric. So he's an expert on contactees and similar characters out there. And I asked him, have you ever heard about men in Black in Sweden? And he sent me a link to a little text he wrote once.

And that, you know, that may realize, okay, there is stuff out there. I continued to go through that source, and I found a couple more, not many, but there is a couple of cases that I actually find quite interesting. So, I mean, thanks to having access to the archives for the unexplained, and their amazing scanned collection of newsletters and searchable newsletters and magazines, I was able to dig up a few more cases, which I wrote about in the article. So, you know, the main thing was that I couldn't find anything. And if I can't find anything, then I must find it.

So I find it really interesting kind of how you were able to dig up some of these cases of men in black, Fred. But I know you kind of have a personal story, too, of a possible. And we use that term loosely possible brush with a men in black. you mind telling us the story of loam and how that kind of ties into all of this? Yeah, it's, it was around the first time when I started to think about Swedish men in black encounters. And I had just begun, this was a while ago, you know, maybe two years ago or something. And I had, I started to do some light research, see if I could find anything. And I was, you know, It was going through my mind all the time.

And I remember I ran down to the store and to do some shopping. And on my way home, a man passed me. I didn't see his face, but a man passed me. And I could sense that he was stopping behind me. I could literally sense his eyes in my neck. And I turn around and I noticed that this guy who was dressed in a dark, jacket and a dark hood was standing still there at the

street just looking at me and I felt okay you know it was during daytime I'm not worried in that way that it could be dangerous or something so I just okay he's he thought I looked like you thought I looked like someone or maybe he's a drug dealer you know I've been asked several times here to

ask to buy substances so Anyway, I ignored him and I walked up to the park in front of our house. And once again, I had this feeling that, you know, he's behind me. And I look back and, yes, he's coming behind me, you know, maybe 20, 30 meters. And now I start to get a bit worried, actually. So I walk to the house and I turn around. And then I just see him standing on a very specific spot on this.

this path through this little forest in the park and you're standing there looking at me. It's like, it's like from, I know what you did last summer, basically, you know, with a hoodie. And okay, okay, so I hurry in. I lock the door. Everything is fine. I don't think about this for a day, maybe. So, I mean, the next day I'm sitting working in the living room and I sense that I see that the cats are, they're focused. on something in the hallway and I go out and look and I see the handle, the door handle moving

like someone is trying to get inside. And I'm like, all right, right. So I look out to people and I see I see this man. I recognize him. I recognize the clothes. I see him standing outside the door and I even snap a photo to be safe through the people, you know, to, you know, for, you know. Yeah.

And I open the door and I ask. So you're looking for someone? I must have been crazy, I guess. And he says, loam or loam. Luam, he pronounces Luam. And I said, no, there's no Luam here. And close the door. And he continues to be outside the door for a while.

And then he leaves. And then for a month, this man showed up outside our door in the stairs. He tried to get inside our apartment in the middle of the night. He rang the doorbell. I remember once at midnight. One evening, I was kind of shilling. I looked out the balcony. And I could see him standing outside the balcony looking up at our apartment.

And I could see his white eyes, you know, glittering in the darkness. And I told my partner, you know, he's here again. He's here again. And every time we met him, he asked for Luam. And this continued for like a month, basically. And then he disappeared again. So I'm, I mean, it was a mysterious man who behaved very bizarrely. I felt directly that it was some kind of connection to men in black because I was so focused on it at the moment.

And a while later, I was thinking about this word or name, Luam, what is? is it? And I decided to check it with Alan H. Greenfield's The Secret Cipher of the Euphonauts. You know, we're going to go the occult route here. Absolutely. Yeah, and the word Luam, it brought only sinister words like shadows or lurking, stuff like that. And I started to research the word Luam. And Luam is a different spelling for Lum, I think, which is kind of a soil. Lam is also the alien entity that Alistair Crowley channeled a long time ago.

So you see, you know, this meme with this guy standing pulling strings between a noteboard, the conspiracy mean. That was me at the time. And there was like this connection between men in black, Alistair Crowley, my fascination by men in black, of course, everything kind of just came into one there. And then I realized that men in black basically has to do with paranoia because it automatically creates paranoia.

I mean, when we listen to people who have met men in black, all of them are in a state of paranoia. They don't trust anyone. They don't trust, of course, they're mysterious men. They start connecting dots that might not even be there. And I can understand why that frightens people so much. on a different note this led to another bizarre synchronicity because that was a couple of months later and a friend sent me a photo from Norway

and it was this big tracks in the snow footprints and I was joking oh it's troll it's a troll footprints and yeah we laughed about that a couple of hours later I got an email from an English production company who asked if they can use a photo I took once of a troll. As a peridolia effect, it's a troll. So, okay, weird, two troll things in one day.

And in the evening, I'm out walking and I'm coming to this exact spot out in the park where this man was standing. On that spot was a wooden troll, you know, carved wooded wooden. and troll, you know, standing on the exact same spot. So that's like, of course, now I sound mad. I realize that. But it's, you know, when you start following the synchronicities around men in black, around the esoteric and UFOs, then, I mean, you can disappear forever into the rabbit hole. And I still think about this guy.

I still look for him. I still sometimes go and look through the people. Is he standing there today? Is he down in the basement? So, yeah, it's created some kind of paranoia that still holds on up until today, actually. So, of course, I had to dive into the subject of Swedish men in black even more, you know, to, you know, to kind of just make it come full circle, I guess. Right. Right.

Wow. That is so fascinating. First of all, I didn't think we were going to connect trolls in the men in black, but I'm so happy that we've done that, Fred. That's awesome. But you bring up this idea of paranoia, and I think you're right. That is kind of the nature of the men in black phenomenon. Some figures lurking in the distance, either, you know, preceding or after a UFO event of some sort, or a event of a event of. of high strangeness or the paranormal. They always seem to be around, at least in the lore that we've come to learn, both in the United States and possibly even in Sweden. So I love, if you wouldn't mind, could you maybe give us a few of the stories from the article that you found in terms of these Swedish men in black,

if we do want to call them that? Yeah, we have one that's actually connected to Loch Ness and the Loch Ness monster. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, it was in August, I think, 1971, and young journalist, Jan Uwesundberg, was sent to Loch Ness by the magazine he was working for, Lectire, which was a men's magazine, to write about the monster. and when he was, you know, lurking around there, he go into the forest and suddenly he sees this UFO, a UFO shaped like an iron, basically. You know, they want to make your clothes flat.

I don't know, you call it iron, yeah. Yeah, and he sees three individuals, three beings outside in what he thinks looks like diving suits, which is interesting because diving suits is something that comes back into his, in the mythology he was creating, basically. So these beings, they fly away in their iron UFO. And he goes home, he writes the article about the Loch Ness monster, doesn't mention the aliens or UFO or anything like that. But not long after, he starts to have uninvited visitors to his house in Mutala.

They were knocking on his door. They were calling him, threatening him not to write and talk about this. He saw a big black figure in the garden lurking around. And this scared him so much that he basically refused to talk about the UFO slash alien part of the Loch Ness story. One need to keep in mind that Jonovesoen-Berry was, if I'm going to be kind, you couldn't trust him always. He had a tendency to make things up, to just make it spicier. He claimed to have taken photos of this UFO in Loch Ness,

and in Flying Souser review, he actually shows a photo. off one of the aliens, which shows nothing at all. There's just a forest. There's nothing there. But it's fascinating, I think, because it was so connected to Loch Ness, which also brings forth another Man in Black episode in connection to that lake. The first interview, kind of with John Wessonbury, was made by Ted Holiday in 1971 for flying Or no, it was 73. And Ted Holliday is one of many things he's famous for is that he

did a thing with a priest, Reverend Oman, I think his name was, who tried to exercise the Loch Ness monster. The day of... He did it. Yeah, you know, it's a bizarre story. He even exercised the Bermuda Triangle, I heard, but I haven't. looked into it so much. Okay.

Yeah, but the day after he was, the day after the exorcism, Ted Holiday was out walking nearby the lake and saw suddenly men in black staring at him from a distance, dressed in black leather clothes, and he heard a whistling sound, and then he disappeared. So it's an odd little connection to the men in black mythos.

even from that direction, the guy who wrote the article about Jan Uwesundwe's experience at Loch Ness. Jan Uwe later wrote a book called Phantom Submarines or Phantom Uvotala, which is a Swedish book where he goes into, you know, we had a kind of a USO flap in Sweden during the 80s, where people saw strange, mysterious submarines everywhere. And Janove thought these were, of course, alien crafts of some kind. So in this book, he had a whole chapter on Frogman in Black, which is, I never heard about it before until I read this book. And he had like, I think it's like 25, 30 accounts of Frogman in Black

who threatens witnesses and behave weirdly, often in connection to strange otherworldly submarines or whatever it is. So here the diving suits comes back again in his world because the beings at Loch Ness had that. So Jan Ui was a strange, strange character, not totally pleasant, but he's someone, you...

In Swedish uphology, if a story is too good to be true, it's probably because you can find Jon Uve somewhere in the background, slicing it up a little bit, or a lot, or totally. The man was a mystery, absolutely. He was a madman. But good writer, he kind of reminds me of Gray Barker in the way that he had an amazing way of telling stories. and you were never really sure how much he made up. Gray Barker, of course, is a totally different class.

But they had similar properties, both these men. You know, there were tricksters, hoaxers, showmen in one way or another at least. But, you know, the frogman in black is, you know, he had so many that I think he, actually have some real accounts and maybe he saw what he thought they would be in them. You know, maybe it was, you know, I mean, in the stuff, he wrote all these frogmen, what you can see of them. They have often a darker complexion in the skin. They have, you know, a bit exotic look, you know, in Sweden, everything was, you know, everything that didn't look. Swedish was looked strange at the time.

There was one man, he was out walking with his collie and he encountered like six or seven of these frogmen coming walking towards him and they kind of hypnotized him. So he was frozen, he was paralyzed while they were walking past him, which kind of reminds me of a couple of older gnome observations from Sweden where, where the witness also kind of got paralyzed why they were marching by him. Another frogman, he wasn't dressed in a diving suit at the time,

but he and his colleague was in an old-fashioned car, of course, stopped by the witness and asked for the direction to the harbor or something like that. And then he started asking questions like, what's your time cycle? You know, weird questions. Of nowhere.

And of course, the witness later saw this guy and his calling and a couple of other frogmen down by the water entering a submarine. These are weird stories, but like I said, with Jon Uveh, you never know what's the truth in them. What have he added and what have he totally made up and what's the truth? You know, is there a truth? Wow. Well, you bring up so many little avenues we could go down with all of. this but when you said you know it kind of reminded you of something like gray barker or um even

albert k bender sort of these these gentlemen in the united states who kind of birthed this mythology of the men in black um you know there have been a lot of historians or let's say um folklorists have traced it back to the dawn of time basically you know, if you want to take it down different routes of religion and the occult and men in black and dark figures. But it really did kind of start, I think, with the work of people like Albert K. Bender and Great Barker and even the kind of sordid case of Mori Island in the United States. So I guess my question for you, Fred, is do you see? any connections or patterns between what you are able to dig up in Sweden with these men and black cases and what was reported in the United States? The tricksterish nature is what

stands out for me personally. Like you said, we hear that a lot in the cases in the United States. But yeah, were you able to find any patterns or connections between what's going on there in Sweden and possibly in the U.S.? What's up somewhere in the skies listeners? Ryan here. Just wanted to give a quick shout out to our brand new Patreon supporters. Special thanks to Matthew K. Josh R. Jen D.

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So again, my sincere thanks to all of you, past, present, and future. If you'd like to help support somewhere in the skies today, visit Patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Keep looking up and enjoy this week's episode. Well, I think in those cases, I've found all of them basically have some kind of paranormal part. You know, in Januva's case, he had a poltergeist phenomena in his home after the men in black contacted him. Another guy, a very beloved man called Bevan Berthelsen, who was the chairman of UFOsweria for two years during the 70s. He had his own experience in 1973, where a strange man showed up. This was after a UFO observation. He had his first one. And this man showed up at his

face, this man showed up at his house, asked a couple of weird questions, walked out on this tiny road outside this country house and just disappeared. So you have these figures, these characters who

just kind of like ghosts, you know, like shadow people. They just appear and disappear. I mean, I remember in the Albert K. Bender case that he experienced what you could describe as some kind of poltergeist phenomena,

you know, knockings and bangings on the doors and walls and similar things, which is, of course, deeply connected to ghostly experiences also. And I mean, the look, at least in the look of the men, at least in the case of Jonovae and Bevan, is very traditionally men in black. They don't have any diving suits on in the... suits on in those cases, of course.

So, yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's a mythology that have kind of, like you said, it has spread over the world. Our modern view on men in black, it's kind of, kind of, not weird, but it's, you know, I like it, I like it when it goes really strange. I find it a bit boring when there's men in black who just look like, you know, some militaries or they look like some boring government types. I want them to have black suits, old-fashioned suits, hats, old cars, similar things like that. What's missing today, I'd say, is the madness, the bizarreness of, for example, Albert Kay Bender's experiences. I mean, he had these three men who came floating in his bedroom, and they took him to Antarctica,

and you had this strong smell of sulfur around them. And they were more like, I think I compared it to a sleep paralysis experience or a DMT trip. And, you know, if, I mean, after rereading his book, flying saucers and the three men, I really think he experienced something. And if it had a natural explanation, I would say it was sleep paralysis.

In combination with paranoia, maybe there was government types actually contacting him because, I mean, it was a huge subject during the 60s. So, you know, it's a mix of all these things. and they have I think why they, sorry I'm jumping here a bit I think that they're not so

common in Sweden because we don't have the same tradition of secrecy as you have in the United States. In Sweden I'm exaggerating a little bit but we're a very, very open country. You can get access to a lot of material. You can

pick up the phone and talk directly to someone still to a certain degree. And I think the secretness, the secrecy of the United States and the government style the United States have kind of feeds the men in black mythology even more. Yeah, here is like, it's a different culture, you know, it's a very, very different culture we have and had. I mean, these things I told you about happen in the 70s, and it was a way more innocent time in Sweden than it is now. So to have these things happen at the time, I would say, is very unique.

And today, I'm surprised that we don't have more of these cases in modern times here in Sweden, though, because times have changed, and we have a different kind of. of attitude. There is more paranoia. So I'm surprised that that hasn't, you know, created, basically, many blacks out there. Then again, with Sweden, it's a small country, you know. I don't know if that was a good answer. I feel I'm rambling on here. No, no. No, you, it's a fantastic answer. You bring up a lot of good points of, especially the idea of secrecy. I mean, when, you know, within the, you know, within the United States and even in, you know, I would say the UK as well at times,

when your governments are not being transparent with the people, that is when you start to create your own truths, create your own mythologies of what's occurring. And I think you're right. I think, you know, the reason you may not find a lot of cases like that in Sweden is because of that very reason. You have a government who's willing to tell the public what's going on and there's a trust there. I feel like in the United States there's no trust in government whatsoever.

And we're seeing that play out right now where our military are shooting down unidentified objects in the sky and not telling us what they are. So what happens? Either one extreme is that they're all surveillance equipment from a rival nation or the other extreme. They're aliens from Zeta Reticuli. And this is Roswell all over again. So I think you're right. There's a gap between the knowing and not knowing that I think creates these stories of, men in black, what they are, who they are, where they come from. And that's not to say they're not real

and that this phenomenon is not real. But a lot of it probably could be attributed to what we want it to be, what we imagine it could be. And then tying in to UFO sightings. You know, once you have a UFO sighting, a lot of people are like, oh my God, I've heard that the men in black come and silence you after you see these things. And that's when the paranoia starts. And everyone around you is a little more suspicious and might be a men in black or a woman in black even. So it's interesting.

I think you bring up a lot of good points there. I also believe that a UFO observation is by itself something so unique. Here in Sweden, I must admit, nowadays we don't have some any observations. observations, you know, as, you know, if you go back to the 60s and 70s and 80s where you had tons of them. And nowadays, you don't have so much. But I can imagine, and I've never seen a UFO. You know, I've seen dots in the sky and everything, but, you know, it could be something else. I think just by seeing something like that, your mind goes on high alert to everything that looks and feels strange.

You know, it's, it's, I can make, this is quite wild comparison. I don't know if I should do it here, actually. Do it. Do it. It's very, it's not, now we're going into who here. You know, there was some years ago, I, I did a lot of mushrooms psychedelics. And there was like a year I had, you know, over one summer I did mushrooms three times. And during all those three times, I met the same man.

And he's an odd looking man. He's short, his fat, he has his clothes doesn't fit they're too big. And every time he looked at me. And yeah, you can say, okay, the guy's on mushrooms, you know, he hallucinated. but no, I wasn't hallucinating. But my senses, my mind was on high alert for everything around me. And I probably just noticed this guy each time. I mean, I live in a pretty small community.

So, of course, with his odd looks, his strange behavior, he just stood out even more than he probably would in a way without mushrooms. I say. But that reminded me of how when you're, when you're into something unique, something odd, something out of the ordinary, how you tend to see stuff that not always is there. I have a weirder theory about that is that the phenomena itself used this guy as a kind proxy. So the phenomena showed itself to me as him. He was just an innocent bystander. He was just weird standing there fishing outside in nature, like a gnome, basically. And he ended up being my connection to nature, to the phenomena, to the weirdness, to the high strangeness.

And I think that's the case in a lot of encounters with the men in black, that you have seen something, you have experienced something and you have no idea what this. Everything is weird. Your reality is fucked up. And suddenly these two guys or three guys or one guy or women come and they talk to you. And you feel that, hmm, this is out of the ordinary. This is something that usually doesn't happen. Even if, you know, maybe there are some innocent people asking questions.

You know, everything turns weirder. I don't know if that made sense, but I can be a bit abstract sometimes. No, I love that. This idea that it can bring in a sense of high strangeness. And everything starts to become bizarre. And this simple person now becomes like the center of a story they never wanted to be written into. And I find that fascinating. Yeah, like a symbol, a symbol for high strangeness.

And Man in Black is, for me, at least, strong symbols for high strangers. Because, you know, something weird happens, man in black shows up. You know, it's been being like that constantly, obviously, through the years, you know. So, but, you know, it could be anything. I don't know. But I find it very fascinating. I find it so fascinating. It is.

Well, let's go there in terms of it could be anything. Because you actually wrote another article where you theorized about what the men in black could possibly be. We touched on that right now a little bit. But what other theories do you think could be behind this? You know, for so long, I thought these were just members of the government coming out to silence UFO witnesses. But then you hear the high strangeness aspect to a lot of these cases. And it doesn't seem like we're dealing with just, you know, a hired U.S. Air Force person or someone in the CIA or something, if we're going to. to keep it in the United States.

It seems to be a lot weirder and like you said, a lot more bizarre. So what are some of those theories, Fred, that you kind of pose in terms of what the men in black, the Swedish men in black even could possibly be? Well, like you said, it's just theories. I find men in black to be an interesting thought experiment, you know, just the presence of these characters.

And that made me think. There is a theory that we're all aware of. I don't agree with it that we're living in a simulation. Everything around us is created by a computer or aliens or whatever. Something have created us and we're just running around there, poor suckers. And so maybe the men in black are kind of like a virus, like a virus sent in programmed by whoever's. behind all of this to check up on us.

But there's a glitch in the matrix, like a UFO or Bigfoot or whatever, these viruses or these programs, you can say, comes, you know, sneaking around, asking questions. And they're not like us because they're programmed to look like us, but they're not perfect. They're weirder. They're more unnatural somehow. And so that's one.

hypothesis, I would say, more than a theory. There's also this thing that maybe we're not visited by aliens at all, but what we're visited by is probes. I mean, we have something called the Van Neumann probe, you know, probes sent to Earth to explore, check around. So maybe the men in black are kind of, some kind of robotic or android versions of that probe. They send them in, you know, like a bird watcher or some, you know, they dress like a tree or bush or something and try to get closer to the birds or other animals. So maybe that's what the man in black is, you know. They kind of, they just made to look like us to sneak around, but we're, you know, they're not organic at all.

I mean, there's many, many witnesses have described them as robotic in movements, you know, with plastic faces, you know, obviously makeup on top of their features. I remember someone mentioned that it looked like he didn't have any lips, but the lips were painted by lip with lipstick. You know, it's like, what is this? So that's one idea. if we're going to go even more woo-woo here, I feel, and I'm semi-serious about this, that you can say that the men in black are manifestations or thought creations by humanity's own paranoia. You know, if you have the collective unhappiness paranoia, which I believe would create some kind of strong energy,

this negativity, this hopelessness, this paranoia, because the world, it is what it is, and has been like that for a number of years. And that alone, it's like a tulpa. I don't want to use the word tulpa. Someone wrote out the day that they're so tired of hearing about tulpas, but I'm saying it here. It could be a tulpa.

Take it. believe it, guys. Topa. Yeah. So they created from, they created by us, our collective angst, anxiety, you know.

And this is like, I mean, I don't want to go political, but I also feel that some of these political characters we have are kind of the essence, the compressed

unhappiness and paranoia and greed and everything of mankind. kind itself and that generates certain form of characters not necessarily in a woo-woo style but they kind of just being naturally pushed in front and suddenly we have a madman as as a leader you know as you know in the government or whatever you want to call it so that's also a little bit a little take on it at least but all you know it's I'm just speculating here you know I'm of course Yeah, but I'm, this, the men in black, they're like a, they, they are a rabbit hole, you know, it's difficult to not crawl into it, you know, and search and turn every stone and, you know, pull every root down there.

There's, there's always something that, you know, that sticks to you. sometimes a bit gooey and gluey. You know, you can't get rid of it. And maybe Men in Black are that goo that we people create unconsciously, I guess. Wow. You're blowing my mind, man. You're right. There's so many rabbit holes we could go down.

The men in black are the goo. You need to coin that term or what do they say? Trademark that term right now. Well, and I want to kind of wrap up our conversation on men in black because I also want to just get some of your favorite Swedish UFO cases. I'm dying to know. But before we end that, you mentioned we don't hear a lot about men in black anymore or encounters with them. And we did touch on why that might be. But have you been able to find any sort of modern day iterations of what could possibly be interpreted as a men-in-black encounter?

Anything like that in like the last 10 years or so even? We always hear about them in decades prior. You mean in Sweden or internationally? I guess Sweden specifically. Well, I mean, I have one, but that's the one we were talking about having on the Patreon. Okay, all right. Guys, you heard it here first. Over on Patreon, after this conversation, we are going to continue with Fred over there to hear that story.

So good tease. Good tease there, Fred. We'll save that one for Patreon then. Well, let's move on then to your favorite Swedish UFO cases. Now, some of them I'm familiar with, but not too many. So I'd like to get your thoughts and insights on some of the cases that really compel you in your homeland. Well, we have, I mean, I would say, you know, I've written a lot about it. Some of this is not published yet, but it will be.

And I found so many cases that I've fallen in love with and I can't stop looking into. Even if I'm done with the text, I'm continuing to dig into them because I want to find something new, something more interesting. And I think my absolute favorite one is in a small community of Treheuningshue in 1969. In Trehehroning Shoe. It's a very, very small community, lots of forest and mountains around, a couple of lakes. It's very peaceful there. And they have a transmitter station where, you know, signals, radio signals and television signals are distributed all over Sweden. And at that station, Sheldnestland worked.

And on this evening, I think it was March 12, 1969. He came to work around six in the evening. and, you know, he made some coffee, he read the newspaper, he checked the equipment, and suddenly all the alarms went off, you know, with, you know, lamps and sounds and, you know, chaos. So he stood up and like, what's going on here? And then it stopped. So he called his colleagues and they didn't know anything about it. So, you know, he leans back, continues with his newspaper, everything is calm again.

It's getting darker. Maybe half an hour later, he had this strong feeling that he needs to go and open the door and look outside the transmitter station. And when he do that, he sees a huge flying saucer. It's like 150 meters in diameter standing, you know. Wow. Yeah, it's enormous. It covers a whole, you know, deforestation area below the transmitter station. and he's like, what the fuck? He's just looking at it because it's such a bizarre sight.

He didn't expect that, you know. Yeah, and the thing is he sees movements also. It's like a tunnel going into the UFO. He kind of described it as some kind of almost three-dimensional, four-dimensional tunnel, not purely material. And from that tunnel beings came. and they were moving towards the hospital station and he received a message in his mind saying let us in.

So he opens the door and he lets in maybe 10, 11, 12 beings shaped like boxes, like maybe one meter in height and they kind of fuzzy, foggy boxes. and they floats into the transmitter station, and they kind of checks out the equipment. And he's just standing there. He's like a couple of centimeters from them. And he senses that these boxes, or what you're going to call them, are more like a shield,

and that there's some kind of intelligence inside of them. This goes on for like 10 minutes or so. And then the beings leave, they float back into the UFO, and they fly away. and he's left there alone and the first thing he does is he calls the police he has a friend who's a police

a local policeman and says you know can you see something so the the policeman went out on his yard and looked in that direction and he didn't see anything he called his colleagues in a nearby town and did you know was there something going on here and everyone like no

and when he explained to them what had happened. They thought he was drunk. They laughed at him. His wife laughed at him. So he kept quiet about this for like three years or two years.

1971. He first told about this encounter. And for as long as he lived, he passed away some years ago. He told the exact same story. There was no, you know, you have these UFO stories where details are added and there's

getting more and more, you know, getting more and more, you know, spectacular. But in his case, it was like, no, this happened. I have no idea what it is, but this happened. And I would say what makes it convincing is that he made regular phone calls to his colleagues before the event, directly after they went and to his friend, the policeman. And there was a constant communication in and around this incident,

which makes me feel that this, he didn't. He didn't fall asleep. He didn't imagine this. This was, this is something else. In 1977, another man actually encountered three beings at almost the same spot. Some kind of short beings with spades. They were digging in the ground and they had a quite small UFO behind them. And when investigators came there like a day or two after, they could actually find traces.

in the ground of someone digging and taking moss samples and things like that. So this area was kind of a hotspot for a number of years of weird sightings and strange beings. So the 3007 case is absolutely one of my favorite. It's so visual, especially when you read about it, not hearing a crazy old Swede talk about it. You can so easily imagine how it is out there in nowhere by this transmitter station and this huge flying saucer lands. You know, I love it. Have you been out to the site where this occurred? No, I haven't.

It's quite far away from where I live, but I'm planning to, definitely. I've been trying to pinpoint the exact spot where the flying saucer allegedly landed. So one day, maybe this summer I will go up there and try to, you know, see if I can, maybe I can find some other witnesses or some relatives to Shell, you know, because I want to do something with it. You know, I went down to, there was a landing in 1946 in Engelholm. And last summer I went down there and I filmed it and I explored this area. and that's so fun to do, you know, to actually go to the location and explore it. So, yeah, with this case, one day, absolutely, I will be there. And I will embarrass myself with knocking doors and talking to people.

That is a true investigator. You have to do that. And you let me know, I'm not too far from you nowadays. If you need someone to, hey, hey, I'll carry your suitcase for you if you need. I don't care. I want to go there to you. I mean, it's easy to you to get to Engelholm. Engelholm is in the south of Sweden where this UFO monument is the landing in

1946. It's not that far away. If you go to Denmark and you take basically a bus and a train, you can reach it. I know it's easy to say, of course. No, that's, that's, you said the right words, bus and train because I cannot drive yet. in Europe. I'm too scared. I'll get there. I'll get there. But wow, man, that's fascinating. I'm so happy. Thank you for sharing that that story with us. Well, hey, we are going to head over to Patreon to hear about a modern-day men-in-black case that you were able to uncover, which I'm really

interested to hear about. So, guys, if you want to hear that story, head over to Patreon, to hear that. Fred's going to stick around and tell us that story. And maybe one or two more of his other favorite UFO cases out of Sweden. But before we go here, Fred, on the main feed, can you tell us what else you're up to? Do you have any plans of more articles coming up or filming? I know you do a lot of filming as well. Let us know if there's anything you can tease for us. Well, keep an eye on my Medium account. I have a couple of articles coming out I might even talk a little bit about one of those cases on the Patreon version of this

currently I'm the story producer for Spokchak which is a huge paranormal show there in the UK right now filming one episode and I'm also waiting for the first test print of my new book because what are podcasts for because I've written a book, yes. And I hope that book will be out in next month, in March.

No, this is February March, yeah. It's called Northern Lights, High Strangeness in Sweden, where I only writes about weird, weird cases from the 20s up to the late 80s or early 90s, often related to humanoids and flying saucers and time rifts and other kinds of wonderful things. Awesome. Well, we'll definitely have to have you back on to talk about the book when it comes out. That sounds really, really interesting. Well, where can we find all of your work and everything you're up to?

Well, outside my Medium account, where I publish all my articles, basically. I would say that the best way to hang out with me is on Twitter. The infamous Twitter nowadays, I was almost on my way away from there, but I'm there. You know, I have a lot of friends. And my name there is Homo Satanis. It's quite easy to find. And I also have an Instagram, Homo Satanis, where there's a lot of old UFO books and sometimes cases. I write about and other weird stuff.

So I would say those are the best places to hang out with me. And I'm one of the good guys because I'm following back, if you're not assholes, of course. Exactly, exactly. Guys, all the links to Fred's social media can be found in the show notes below. So be sure to follow him. And I really am looking forward to your book. But we're going to head over to Patreon right now to hear a story about the modern men in black encounter that Fred was able to dig of.

And another case that you might see in his upcoming book as well. So Fred, thank you so much for finally joining me as a proper guest on Summer in the Skies today. Thank you.