Somewhere in the Skies - Somewhere in the Whiskey: Part One

Episode Date: April 16, 2018

On episode 52 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan is joined by academic and UFO researcher, MJ Banias, for the first installment of Somewhere in the Whiskey. What happens when UFO enthusiasts drink and talk UFOs? Brutal honesty, weighty conversation, and even a few revelations ensue. Uncensored and no-holds-barred, this is what happens when the script is thrown out and the libations flow! Guest Bio: MJ Banias is a writer and blogger who critically and philosophically examines the weird, the strange and the anomalous. He was a former field investigator with MUFON, has been featured on multiple podcasts and radio shows, and contributes to Mysterious Universe and Rogue Planet. His work has been included in FATE Magazine, and in a new book entitled UFOs: Reframing the Debate. His work can be found at: www.terraobscura.net Additional music in this episode was provided by Rogue Diplomats. To learn more, visit: www.roguediplomats.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Official Store: CLICK HERE Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with eOne Entertainment Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey y'all, Ryan Sprague here. As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume, but it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the show is worth. You'll be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growing. So please, help Somewhere in the Skies now by becoming a page. To contribute and to learn more, visit www.com backslash SomewhereSkies.

Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprague. Sometimes you just got to unwind and treat yourself. And that's no exception when it comes to the podcast. I've been chatting back and forth with colleague M.J. Benayas about you'll never guess.

UFOs. What? And as we were talking, we both realized we were huge whiskey fans. And if we're going to talk UFOs and drink whiskey, it seemed like the perfect combination for some good content. So, we decided to hit the old record button and let it fly. This is a two-part series of somewhere in the skies. And it's a little different than you're used to. It's just MJ and I bouncing thoughts, theories, and opinions off on one another. It's conversation, it's discourse, and it's completely uncensored. You've been warned, and you've been invited to grab a seat with us, pour yourself a healthy dose of whiskey, bourbon, or water, I'm not judging,

and join us in this free-for-all discussion on UFOs and a human approach to an alien phenomenon. Here is part one. And in the words of the American poet, Richard Hovey, may the beam of your glass, never destroy the ray of your mind. Cheers. MJ, how you doing tonight, my man? I'm doing great. Living the dream, man. Living the dream, as always. Now, first of all, this was your idea.

So I have to credit you with this. We are sitting back. We are having a whiskey. And we're just going to chat, man. Whatever comes to mind. There's nothing better than like a good glass of whiskey in conversation. Yes. What are you drinking? What do you got over there tonight? I have a little nip of, it's called the Ardmore. It's a scotch. I think Highland Scotch, nice little blend.

Nothing too fancy. But, you know, it's got a bit of heat. I'll say that. It's about 44%. So the back end is a little burny. So it's enjoyable. Mellow up front. Nice and punchy in the back.

So it's the Ardmore, Scotch whiskey. Ooh, yummy. I'm drinking a scotch as well. I got a wolfburn. So this is from Northland, I believe, Scotland. So it's only a year old. The distillery opened about a year and a half ago. The original one burnt down, as they do.

And, yeah, they just started up a new single malt. And I'd have to compare it the same. It's, you know, very, very good finish. Sweater than I thought. It's got a lot of honey notes to it. So it was a lot more of a dessert whiskey than I anticipated. but, uh, good nonetheless. Sounds terrific.

Like I said, a good whiskey and some UFOs. So, man, I mean, we're just going to kind of go off the cuff here, but there are a few things I wanted to bring up. You being in Canada, this story's been making the rounds lately about a new Canadian coin that features a UFO case. What have you found out about this? And have you gotten your hands on this yet? Okay, yeah. So I read this in the newspaper, and it was like, because the mint in Kansas, Canada is in my, it's in like my city, so it's pretty local.

And it's a, it's a $20 silver coin and it's shaped sort of not, it's not really circular. It's sort of like a teardrop shaper and sort of an oval with a, and it kind of rounds off to the bottom into like a teardrop. And it, and it's, it's, it's to commemorate the Falcon Lake UFO encounter, which happened in Falcon Lake Manitoba in 1967. and it's sort of one of the best known or best sort of investigated, I suppose, UFO encounters, close encounters in Canadian history.

So the coin, I think, is about $120 Canadian to buy. So I'm kind of viewing that as a slight rip-up. I mean, the silver is worth about $20, but it's going to cost me $120 to buy it. That being said, when something like that comes out, it's tough for me not

to get the credit card out and just start throwing money at people. I know. So, yeah, the back of the coin features the typical Canadian sort of the Canadian, you know, head, which is the queen. And then on the front end is sort of a picture of a man who is supposed to be Stephen McEllick. There we go. We got it. And he's sort of crouched down his sort of looking up into the sky as this sort of disc-like object is sort of descending over him in the lake in the background. So it's a, it's, and it's, it's quite sort of, I mean, it's kind of silly looking, but like I said, it's a UFO coin and I have to be, I have to say as a Canadian, I'm pretty proud that my country decided to release a limited edition UFO coin.

It's absolutely, it's so trippy, man, looking at this thing. But again, I love it. I'm, I really want to fork out the money here, because how often do you get this? Could you imagine if the US ever did something like this? I can't even imagine if we got like a Roswell one or this, that, this thing. that. And why not, right? There should be coins with UFOs on them. I mean, I think they're interesting historically. I wonder why they did it though. Like I... That's the question. Yeah. Of all the coins you could have made, you know, like, and minted and like what you could have celebrated, like a little UFO encounter, right, in the middle of, like, the wilderness in Manitoba in Canada. It's like, I gotta be honest, like, you, you have someone on the inside, though. Like, you've got one guy who sits on that board. It's like, you know, we should do a UFO coin and everyone was just really high that day.

Yeah, you know what? Sounds great. Let's just do a UFO coin. Yeah. Who's got bunchies? You know, and then it was just somehow voted in and all of a sudden we now have one. It's ridiculous. I'm still like trying to wrap my head around this.

And yeah, I mean, it's an interesting case. I don't know much about it. But I know that image of what's our guy's name again. Stephen? Stephen. Yeah. Stefan, as I put it. very, very elegant, yeah.

He, like that famous photo of him with like the radiation marks on his chest and whatnot. Like that photo's been making the rounds for decades. Yeah, I never knew it was from this case, actually. Yeah, it's actually a really well-investicated case. I mean, it's part of the Blue Book investigation. So when Blue Book is running, they did come to investigate this case. But they sort of, well, you know, I mean, you know, the listeners of your show know Blue Book wasn't exactly the most legitimate sort of UFO investigation sort of ever done. A lot of it was

based upon debunking sort of the phenomenon, not really investigating it properly. So they made claims that, you know, he was burned by his barbecue and, you know, he was drunk and he fell onto his barbecue and that's what burned him. And, you know, all these other ridiculous claims that sort of this is what happened, right? Meanwhile, you know, the Mayo Clinic, which is where they went to sort of have him checked out sort of officially. almost like zero chance. This is a barbecue. I mean,

the burns keep showing up, you know, every few months or every few years. For some reason, you know, when the burns do show up, he, this man emits this sort of sulfur-like smell.

Yeah. And it sort of followed him for the rest of his life, right? And these burns would sort of recur every once in a while. And not only that, like I've never seen a barbecue with like round grills, right? You know, like a barbecue has like a,

you know, the typical kind of linear grill marks. And he sort of has these round burns and stuff. So this, this was one of those cases, I think, that Blue Book kind of went out of their way to sort of try and debunk rather than sort of properly investigate. It didn't help that he was sort of, you know, a Polish immigrant, didn't speak English very well. You know, I think that there was maybe a little, I'm not going to claim that there was racism, but I think there may have been a little bit of, you know, discrimination a little bit. You know, he wasn't exactly, you know, a military man and he wasn't exactly, you know, a CEO of a company, right?

He was a blue collar Polish guy with a very, very huge interest in geology. So, you know, I can see them just trying to write this one off. Yeah. No, that. I mean, he made a lot of strange claims. I mean, you know, the thing landed. He walked up to it. He leaned inside. He heard a couple voices. You know, like there was a lot of strange claims. But the one thing that you can't sort of dismiss is the fact that he did get burned, right? He did see doctors. It's all documented. It's documented in police records. It's documented in hospital records. It's documented in Blue Book. I mean, there's so much evidence to support this case that something weird happened. You can't just, you know, write it off as being a drunk

guy who fell on his barbecue. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I've seen, you know, recent interviews with his son. And, you know, he tears up every time he starts talking about this because his father, you know, passed away. And to this day, the son genuinely believes that this happened to his father. That means nothing, you know, to the public at large. It's, only this son's belief in his father, which we all want to believe anything our fathers tell us. But yeah, man, I mean, there's something to that, you know, when you hear a story like that and your kids back you up and that really convinced me. I mean, I know that's not going on much. And as a researcher and investigator, I should go on more to look at a case. But again, it's that human aspect that always gets to me, which we will talk about in a little.

little bit. But yeah, fascinating nonetheless. If they're going to do a case and make a coin out of it, I think this was the one to do it for, for sure. Yeah, I got actually, it's interesting. I got to meet his son last year. Really? At sort of a talk that was given by him and Chris Rukowski, who helped him out with sort of re-releasing the original book about this case. And it was fascinating because they had like a talk, sort of a Q&A and everything. And it's crazy to, to listen to this sort of, he's, I mean, he's in his 50s now. But his son talk about, you know, how his parents' marriage was affected as a result of

this incident, right? How his dad became very, very sort of depressed and became very disconnected from his family because of this odd event and none of that. He became quite ill. Like he, like his hair fell out. He was nauseous all the time. He was barely, he said

his dad lost something like 50 pounds as a result of this incident because he just got sick and he was, and he was hyper ill for a long time. And I, like, Like I said, these burn marks would come back every once in a while. And like this stench would fill the house. Like he said like a rotten egg. And it's just like the whole family was affected, right?

It wasn't just this one man. It was the family, the community, right? You know, he was the crazy guy who saw a UFO. Like, I mean, you can imagine, you know, I'm sure as a as a good sort of Polish immigrant to Canada, you know, how do you go to church on Sundays and not have people talk about you behind your back? Like, you know, I can't imagine. Yeah. And, you know, this reminds me so much of the cash slandrum case as well, you know. you know so much physical trace evidence in terms of possible radiation and whatnot and you know things hair falling out this and that and it really really makes me think both cash landrum and this case that we were dealing with something military uh top secret but who am i to say but that's kind of what it sounds like to me and if the guy's going to go around saying it was space aliens of course they're not going to argue that they're going to be like great let them keep saying that but i feel so

bad for him. Oh, you know what, it's funny because he actually, it's in the book, he didn't think it was aliens at all.

Like, he, he was totally convinced it was like an American advanced, like, propulsion. Like, he, in the book,

as he walks up to the ship or whatever, like this thing that's landed on this rock. He, and he leans inside and he yells, do you yanks need some help?

That's what he yells, right? Because he was convinced it was just some American piece of, you know, hardware that was coming out of the cold,

war and you know it just you know they had to land it somewhere i guess and and this was a perfect place you know clearing in the woods so yeah no in fact he he went to his grave and never at all claiming it was aliens he he he died believing it was some advanced piece of human technology um i think other people started to sort of think it was potentially alien or something and that sort of just became part of the mythology right as it often does anytime you hear a UFO it always It always goes back to ET, which is one of the biggest problems we have these days and that we've had for a long, long time. But, I mean, there are people out there looking at it differently, and that's all we can really ask for. But, yeah, interesting.

There was one thing I wanted to bring up to you. I brought it up to you tonight, man. This is a find I just made yesterday. And I don't even know if, I'm sure some of the people in the quote unquote UFO community know about this. but it was news to me and I am loving it. This is a podcast I found. It's called, Oh, No, Ross and Carrie. So it's this woman and this man in Los Angeles,

and they go to UFO conferences all around the country and they review every talk and every speaker that they see. So they went to the Ozark UFO conference last year. They broke it up into, I think, like six episodes. They're like 50 minutes each. And they go so in depth. like talking about each speaker what they look like, their mannerisms, how they acted before their talk, how they responded to questions after, and then they do a deep dive into each

of them. And oh my God, dude. Like, it is the most entertaining and eye-opening thing I've heard in a long time from people from the outside, which I think is really interesting. You know, I don't know about you, but I feel so embedded in this stuff that I almost feel loyalty to some of these these people these you know the quote unquote like the big guns in the field to respect everything they say and right when you start to hear someone from the outside making extremely logical observations about some of the things these people are saying it's

fucking crazy like yeah some of the stuff they say is absolutely nuts so oh yeah i'm so happy i found it it's a little uncomfortable when i hear them talk about like you know friends of mine who I talk to on a daily basis. But at the same time, it's, it's amazing. It's refreshing. And I wanted to let you know about that. And for any of the listeners out there, go check this out. Oh, no, Ross and Kerry podcast. I mean, Stephen Greer, holy shit. That was amazing. I have John. It's like, really? How do you not rip him apart? But, okay, I'm subscribing. I literally just subscribed on podcast, so I'm going to enjoy this. It's great, man. Contacting the desert they went to, you know.

Yeah. They talk about, you know, everything from, you know, Georgia Souclos to Eric von Donagan. And it's great. Like, they're respectful, but at the same time, they keep it real. So for anyone out there who wants to hear the other side of UFO conjecture, I guess, this is definitely one for you. So, yeah. You know, you bring up an interesting point, this idea of, we're going to get into our first

conversation, this idea of sort of trying to remain loyal to. sort of like people in the field, right? Or like you say, the big guns, right? Like the experts or whatever. And it's interesting because we need to kind of think about, you know, why we do this, right? Like, why do we defer common sense or why do we defer critical thought to just being like, okay, I believe you, right? And it's, I think that there, I think this maybe there's two things. I think first, the UFO community or the UFO subculture is so sort of fringy that, ultimately anyone who sort of puts the message out there kind of puts the message out for everyone, right? Like it's sort of, it's like some sort of odd rights movement, right? Like the UFO rights movement,

right? Like any progress is progress, regardless of what that progress is. So when Stephen Greer gets, you know, his two documentaries on Netflix into like a mainstream, like Netflix is a mainstream provider. Yeah. carrying a bunch of UFO documentaries. I mean, I think, you know, when he gets his tune there, we're kind of like, you know, okay, well, that's good, because the message is going to get out there. I mean, it's Greer's message, which is nonsensical half the time and pretty dubious, but it's still getting out there so that people will then maybe watch it and then they'll do more research.

And then eventually, like, hopefully learn how crazy is, but, you know, keep going down that road. You know, is that one thing, that why we kind of try to stay loyal a little bit? It's a struggle, yeah. I mean, I remember back when unacknowledged first came out, and I went on a tirade. I'm like, I will never talk about that documentary on my show. I will never have Stephen Greer on. Fuck that guy. You know, I'm like a curmudgeon at this point with it.

But then my girlfriend really, you know, calmed me down. And she's like, look, at least the UFO topic is being discussed in a public, like a mainstream outlet, such as Netflix and whatnot. Again, like you said, it's the message that gets out there. And you and I have talked in the past about, you know, and, you know, Robbie Graham would, I think agree with this too, of having someone like Tom DeLong as the face of euphology. Like, is that good that now we have someone that is getting it out there to the mainstream? But it's his agenda. It's his message. It's whatever, you know, books he read by career included, that is going to get out there.

And it is. It's a weird game of loyalties and alliance. and I don't think it does the field any good with that stuff. But at the same time, you know, what do you do? What do you do when, like, someone you've looked up to for so long finds out that they've been lied to for, you know, 25 odd years about one of the most famous UFO cases. It's hard, man. And I find myself between a rock and a hard place constantly with that. I don't know about you.

Well, I think you also, you know, we also have to contend with the fact that the UFO community. how to put this gently. There are a few individuals, let's say, in the UFO community, a few in the UFO community who, you know, we could probably say are very extreme to the point where if you question their ideology or if you question their hypotheses or theories, not only do they come swinging at you, their cronies come swinging at you, right? Yes. And, you know, I don't want to pick on Stephen Greer much more because I fear the wrath of his cronies.

But he has a lot of, he has a lot of people who buy into his message. Another character, like this is like Corey Good or David Wilcock, they have a significant following. And being critical of them, they're able to muster a sort of a significant force of people to sort of go after you, right? whether it's emails or hate mail or whether you, you know, you go on their YouTube channel. Like, you know, like they'll start belittling you on their YouTube channel. They'll say you're part of the cabal or whatever. And all of a sudden, you know, there's 20,000 people out there who no longer like you, right, and are willing to, some of them are willing to, you know, make your life a living hell.

They'll try and hack your Facebook account. They'll try and hack other social media stuff. They'll try to break into your emails. They'll post pictures of you, like public, you know, publicity. photos you've done or whatever or anything. They'll just post pictures of them that are all warped and morphed and they'll release fake blog posts about, you know, like they'll just kind of really rake you over the coals a little bit.

Yeah, it's like leaving Scientology. Yeah, as like a punishment, like how dare you question our, you know, cult leader. So that's another thing. I mean, I think people in the UFO community also are aware of this, right? You have to be very cautious. And you have to be willing to take a hit if you're going to kind of go that route. Like if you're going to, you know, walk out and say, publicly that you know like Corey Good is a fraud you need to be prepared that Corey Good's guys are

going to come after you and and you know try and tear you a new asshole you know now I'm fortunate I don't have a podcast so I can say you know kind of whatever you want and it doesn't matter because the people Corey Good's followers don't read me you know what I mean but if you I can imagine like if you have I'm not saying I'm not using an example but I mean if you have a broader podcast like let's say fade to black or coast to coast right um you can't really alienate you can't really alien at anyone because ultimately you need them at some point to listen to your show, right? Like, you can't, you can't come out and say, Corey Good is a fraud because you know that you might lose 50,000 followers as a result or 50,000 listeners as a result. And that means revenue. That

means money. That means publicity. That means a whole lot. So there's, I think that factor as well. I think, I think it's sort of like this double-edged sword, right? We want to support the UFO community. We want, we want our own to make it. But there's a lot of people within the community whose messages are not only fraudulent, but they are purposely lying for the sake of gaining notoriety or money or whatever glory to run the conference circuit. So it's, yeah, it's sort of dubious and nefarious. I think so. And I think, you know, Greg Bishop brings this up a lot too. And I'd have to agree with him on this, the UFO researcher. Do your own work. And just worry about that. I'm finding more and more, the more I want to attack the Corey Goods.

or the Stephen Greer's or Jimmy Church, why are you having these guys on? This, the, like, I understand at a point, like, yeah, like, this is your job. Like, your family's not going to eat if you don't get those, those list, that listenership you're looking for for your radio show. I get it. I get that. And I think everyone should have a chance to voice, you know, their theories, their thoughts. And he gives them that outlet. Is that something I want to do?

No, I don't. So the more I've tried to temper my anger with people in the UFO field, the more I realize, you know, in the greater scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. You know, they're going to have their faction that believe him and follow him until his dying day. And then there's the other end where you've got people who are just doing their work underground and being like, look, I found this. You know, what do you think of this? And they're doing their thing. So while it's a very fractured field, and I use that word field with a lot of flexibility, it's interesting, man.

And I don't know where I lay in the grand scheme of, you know, loyalty and whatnot. But the whole term UFO community just rubs me the wrong way. And I don't know where I stand on it, to be honest. Yeah, it's pretty nebulous. I've been doing a lot of research into this. And it's very nebulous. Like there is, you know, how do you define someone who's a member of the UFO community, right? There's really no governing body, right?

Like, there's no organization that sort of says, you know, this is what makes someone a member or not. You know, there's no ivory tower. Like, there's no real system in place, right? It's kind of this, it's this subculture where, where there's no borders, right? It just kind of is. But it's weird because that being said, while there is no sort of border that encapsulates sort of the UFO community, you and I can still sit down and talk. about it and use language we both understand and we use the buzzwords and you know like we can so communicate about it because we're both members right um we sort of engage with the discourse

so it's really funny to think about like how does one become a member and how is one not a member and and where do we draw lines right yeah can we can we even draw lines and that's sort of the bigger question is even possible absolutely i mean my mentor peter robin so he said if you want to be a you follow just spin around three times and touch your nose. And I, you know, I follow that to this day. And it's interesting because, you know, as, you know, younger researchers, we get tapped for like TV shows all the time because they want those young faces to tell them what these things are in our skies.

And they're like, well, you're like one of the UFO experts, right? And no, no expert. I find it fascinating. I look into it. I've got a podcast. but that's as far as I go in terms of saying that I'm a UFO researcher. I read books. I interview people and I have a show that I talk about it with people like you.

There is no ivory tower. There's no lieutenants. There's no generals. There's no king. It's interesting. It's a self-perpetuating field and anyone can join and anyone can get kicked out. But the minute they get kicked out, they can be invited right back in as we've seen many times before. Yeah, but who does it?

the kicking out like who has the authority right? Ultimately, you know, I would probably, I could probably, I could probably muster a lot of people in the UFO community who would argue that, sorry, Corey, but you know, I would a lot of people in the UFO community who could basically come out and say, yeah, Corey goods are fraud. And I could muster probably a pretty sizable force of individuals in the UFO community who would say that. But at the end of the day, so can he. And he can come out and say, you know, I'm not a fraud and, you know, here's my story.

and I have a website and it's great and we'd just be budding heads, you know, like there would be no, there's no one to do the excommunicating, right? There's no Pope. So, I don't know. That's one thing I like it with the UFO community, though, you know, like there, because there is no order, it's just this total anarchy, right? It's just this complete system of chaos. But there's something to be said for that, I think.

I think maybe the phenomenon likes that. I think maybe, you know, whatever is responsible for UFOs, I think it kind of digs the fact that the people that are tasked with investigating the phenomenon are in a chaotic state at times, right? Like, there's no law and order here. We're not academia. We're not the scientific community. We're not colleges or universities, right? We are just this group of anarchists who run around and just stir up shit all the time. I think the UFOs love that. Like, I think that whatever is responsible, like I said, it's like excellent, right? That's how it should be. Ah, they're eating that shit up. I mean, our good friend, Red Pill junkie. And I know I'm throwing a lot of

names out there. And I don't want anyone to think this is like a name-dropping episode, but this is the work being done by people today. You know, we look at UFOs for framing the debate, and Red Pill Junkie, his essay is called Anarchy in the UFO. Whatever's in charge of this phenomenon, and I'm not saying it's one thing, one source, anything like that. I think they love this that like we're arguing, we're bickering, uh, you know, we got to the stars going on. We've got, uh, right. You know, we got, um, you know, we got. We got. Bob Bigelow, we got Elon Musk doing shit. It's like, it's all over the place.

And everyone's just trying to make new discoveries and explore. And that's exciting, but it's messy as shit. And I don't think we're ever going to have like one single answer to any of this. That would be extremely depressing, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, whatever that answer is, right, would really, I think would have to be, it would have to be a fundamental shift in everything human, right? Like, our culture would be, it would be a totally unknown. I can't even fathom.

It would be, we would be living in this curious society and curious culture that accepts the reality that, you know, weird shit happens all the time, right? Or, you know, there's these other realms that exist or aliens are real or whatever. Like, it would be a totally different world, I think. It wouldn't be, the second it sort of became common knowledge. If consensus reality allowed UFOs to be real, it would be pretty wild, I think. Anarchy. It would be anarchy again. Yeah, it would be a strange form of society, that's for sure.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I did bring up Tom DeLong. Dude, we haven't talked since, you know, the 2017 wrap-up episode when that all kind of broke. You know, the first videos came out, the Pentagon story came out. I want to know what you think. We won't spend too much time on this because I don't know if it necessarily deserves it. But where do you stand right now with all this? I'm looking at Tom DeLong's investment things.

That thing is not climbed in the past, like, a few months. And we've got three videos now. people are really very divisive on all of it. Where do you stand right now with this whole thing to the Stars Academy and whatnot? Yeah, I really, I think in my mind, I think in my mind, I really try to separate now, especially now. In 2017, when we had that wrap up, you know, I was in a different place. Because it was all new and I wasn't sure of how it was all working and I wasn't sure of the structure and it was all kind of, I didn't have any sort of additional background information. Yeah.

Now, you know, a year later, it's been a year? I mean, months later. Months, yeah. You know, I want to separate Tom DeLong from To the Stars. I don't necessarily have an issue with To the Stars Academy as a concept. I don't necessarily have an issue with the idea of a bunch of individuals who are really into UFOs and manage to put something together in an attempt to maybe, because they have some higher access than the rest of us, to try and bring some more euphological information out.

Okay, I don't necessarily have a problem with that, assuming they're all telling the truth, and they're all honest and whatever, which, you know, we can have a debate about that. And then there's Tom DeLong. You know what I mean? Like, just because he's the current CEO, I think, and just because he's kind of the face of the project,

doesn't necessarily mean that he's much more than the face of the project. And he's probably responsible, probably responsible for sort of the media, stuff, right? He's probably responsible for, you know, the marketing aspect, the entertainment aspect, but I don't really see him being responsible for much else. I don't see him being the guy who manages to get, you know, videos released or whatever. That comes from the other individuals in his organization, because they clearly have clearance to do this stuff, or, or at least, sorry, They have clearance to have conversations with people who have clearance and the ability to potentially, you know, declassify certain things and make that happen, right?

It's, they have social capital, right? They have, or they have clearance social capital, right? They know people within that community who can grease those wheels a little bit versus, you know, just you and me sending an FOIA request. So I think that's interesting. I think that there's something very compelling there, you know, do I still think there's sort of a general? and doesn't have agendas, potentially, I don't know. I can't speak to sort of necessarily, you know, what the intelligence community is up to and what their intentions are or their agendas are.

And it's impossible really to speculate fundamentally, right? Because ultimately, whatever you think is going on isn't because they're 18 steps ahead of you. And it doesn't matter how conspiratorial you are or what you think. You're wrong, right? Because they're not stupid. And they've already guessed what you're thinking. and they're moving beyond to the point where they're not doing anything. I don't know.

But, yeah, so I almost, like I say, I want to separate Tom. That's a long, geez, I've just been tangenting. It's the whiskey. I really want to separate Tom DeLong from TTSA a little bit. I think he's still an aspect, but I don't really think he's, like, I don't think he's a key player. I think he's, he's a source of money. He's a source of maybe a bit of marketing prowess.

I think he's a source of knowledge on how to sort of sell stuff. how to promote stuff, which is like hugely important in the UFO field. So I'm not saying he's not unimportant. I just don't, I think he's sort of that angle. I think he's kind of the glitz and the glitter. He's he's the sizzle, not so much the stake in TTSA. Right. I think that's a really good point, man.

I mean, I think, and I think he knows that. I think he's okay with that role at this point. And I think maybe it was planned all along that he said, look, I'll be like the one to take the hits and this and that. be like the poster boy and in return he's getting that insider information he's always wanted and if he's willing to take the financial hits that's fine like he's getting you know and we've seen this before where people within the field or whatnot you know will sacrifice certain things or do certain things to get information for themselves and in one way i can't really blame him for

that but one thing that's really interesting and i wasn't going to bring this up uh on the show because I was kind of, I was really bummed when this happened. But so a week ago here in L.A. DeL. L.A. do long was doing a book signing with A.J. Hartley. And I was like, holy shit. Like, this is my chance. Like, I live 20 minutes from where he's doing this. I'm going to reach out and be like, drop some names that I know because I'm, I'm not shameless.

Or I am shameless. I don't know. And, uh, and say, look, I would love to just talk to him for a few minutes about where he stands on the academy, everything that's happening, what the reception's been like. Like, so his first publicist got back to me and said, Tom would be delighted. He's like, let us know when you're here and we'll set it up. So I'm like, I'm so fucking excited, man. I'm like, who else has talked to DeLong since like the horrible thing he did with Rogan and whatnot? Right.

And I'm like, oh, I'm going to like, I'm going to be the one to like break the story and get him on and get his personal reactions. Not 20 minutes later, I get an email from another publicist saying, we're so sorry. We take back what we said. Mr. DeLong will not be making any more public interviews about To the Stars Academy. And I found that very interesting, that within 20 minutes, they completely flipped it around. And at this point, he's very, he hasn't been very vocal, you know, maybe some tweets here and there about the Academy, but he's not posting hoaxed photos. It's interesting. I really think that this is the role he was set up to have with this is let me, let me like drop the bomb at first,

get it out there, do these book signings, and then take over the entertainment side of it. Let the ones with the insider knowledge and the, like you said, the social capital, do it. You know, get that information out there. I think you're right. Or, you know, I mean, the Joe Rogan interview was incredibly embarrassing. Yeah. So I can also see potentially the individuals in TTSA, the stake and not the sizzle. I can see the steak kind of looking at the sizzle and kind of being like,

Listen, man, we got to kind of put you on a leash here a little bit, right? Otherwise, we're going to cut you out of this, right? Otherwise, otherwise, you know, you, otherwise we're just not going to tell you things anymore. I'm not saying that they did that. I have no evidence to support this. I'm just suggesting that, you know, after that interview, if I was, if I was, let's say, an individual within the UFO community who had sort of clearance and, you know, I'm relatively well known and I'm also an academic, you know, I'm not just, sort of. guy off the street, you know, like I worked for the CIA or I have CIA clearance and blah, blah, blah. After that interview, you know, we're trying to do something great here with TTSA, you know, we're trying to promote and we're trying to get this information out there. And then you go on Jill Rogan and that happens. I can see sort of as one of those individuals being like, you know what, man, I'm thinking about walking away right now because whatever that was shouldn't have happened, you know, like you're you're supposed to be my marketing guru and you somehow drop the ball on that. So I can. can see that also being the case. I can see, just because that's how I would do it, right? Like, you know, I work in a school. I used to be a school administrator. If one of my teachers did something stupid like that, I can be like, listen, things aren't working out, you know. So I can, I can kind of fathom that reaction as well. I mean, these are still people, these are still individuals. There are still people who are trying to not sell something, but these individuals who are trying to promote an idea. And if you have someone standing in the way, not by their own fault, you know,

he was probably just nervous. He was probably unsure what to do through no fault of his own, maybe. Still really screwed up. Like that interview was bad, man. It was horrible, dude. I got through, like, the first 20 minutes maybe. And I'm like, what? Either DeLong is like on Coke right now or something's going on.

Maybe. Yeah, I do too. I mean, again, like, this was his first major interview since he announced the academy. And who knows, who knows? I guess my question would be like, let's say they do have him on a leash, you know, who in their right mind at the top of whatever is going on here, you know, the trickle-down effect of all the people he got involved with it? Who said, this is the guy that we're going to pick to do our marketing and to get the information out there? Is it merely because he was interested in UFOs before this? Or why didn't they get fucking George Clooney or some, you know, so any face?

or figure that wasn't talking about jacking off and every song he's ever written. You know what I mean? I would say that the vast majority of the individuals in TTSA sort of know each other well. I would say that they're all probably regularly sort of, you know, engaged with each other, sort of within UFO discourse, right? I mean, you know, these, these, the names behind TTSA, these individuals clearly are, are interested in the phenomenon. And then clearly their interests sort of lay outside of really any financial gain, their interests lay outside of any sort of gain for glory or anything like that. They're just, they're really interested in UFOs and the phenomenon itself and trying to figure it out. I think that you probably had a situation where DeLong started

after, you know, as he says, he read a lot of books, after he read all those books, he probably started to reach out. And only that, you know, Tom DeLong has probably significant access to individuals who can contact other individuals, right? Like, you know, if you're a publicist or whatever, your job is to be able to make meetings happen. So I can imagine Tom DeLong calling up, I don't know, the, you know, Hal putoff's secretary. Yeah. And being like, hey, you know, Tom DeLong of Blinkwin-82 wants to talk to you and Hal putoff's

like, who? And then they're like, I don't know, it's a band. And, you know, like Google search shit. And he's like, oh, you know, yeah, okay, you know. All the small things. Got it. Yeah. No, yeah. He's like, wow, you know, their YouTube video has like 80 million hits.

Okay, well, I, you know, I'll take a meeting. Right. And I mean, and I'm sure Tom, you know, like I said, like I said before, I think in an article I wrote, you know, I appreciate Tom DeLong as no sort of hayseed in sort of euphological knowledge, right? Like he, like, he has read a lot. Oh, yes. You know, whether, you know, what he takes in from his reading, I don't know, whether he applies what he's read and whether he synthesizes what he read sort of in an intelligible. way I don't know. I don't know the man. But he knows a lot of things about UFOs. So I can see kind of them and, you know, just how people talk and, you know, email chains happen and just being like,

hey, you know, this guy and he wants to do this and he has this idea. Maybe we should work with him. And, you know, it probably just kind of happened organically. Because I can sort of see like, again, that's how generally how things work. I don't think there was like some guy at the top being like, we should choose Tom DeLong. Right, right. Yeah. And I know some people think that this is like the new version of the avi. where this was all planned and they found a fall guy. I don't necessarily buy into that either. You know, the more you discuss it, the more I'm like, yeah, like Tom had this idea.

They saw his numbers, you know, how much his net worth is. And they're like, oh, shit, we could make some money off of this and get some really cool stuff going on. Like, let's do this. Yeah. And I would even sort of say, like, listen, I would hesitate and say, like, we can get some money off this. Because I've got to be honest, they probably could care less. Like, they're like, you really look at the credentials of those individuals. like they all run, like they're all academics, right?

Like they all have university careers. Like they're not millionaires, right? At least most of them. But, you know, like they're not hurting for money. Like they're doing what they're doing because they're interested. I think what DeLong offers, apart from sort of the media connection and knowing people within media, right? Like, I mean, ultimately, if Tom DeLong makes a UFO documentary, it's going on Netflix.

Oh, yeah. Like, that's a phone call. That's not we have to kind of, you know, he doesn't have to go like the Corbell route, which is like, you have to send it to them and they have to approve. prove it and, you know, it has to go through their committee and, you know, probably it takes months and months, right? Doing that core bell hustle. Right, exactly.

Whereas, you know, Tom DeLong makes a phone call. It's on Netflix the next day. Exactly. So I don't think it's a money thing. I think it's just they have a fundamental interest. So I wouldn't say sort of, because again, really, like how much money have they really raised? I think what DeLong can offer is his connections within media.

Yeah, I think that's the big thing. No, that, he can fund a lot of this too, right? I mean, he can fund all of this on his own. And that's useful as well. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own.

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Oh, sure. There's a contingency plan for sure. You know, we might see this thing completely fizzle and everyone falls out and it's just old news. Or they might do some really cool shit in that time, you know. I'm going to watch the documentary. I'm going to buy the books. And I'm going to take the ride. Because at this point, like, you know, what the hell do we have to lose? We're getting some pretty interesting videos, not as exciting as we hoped, but interesting nonetheless. And we're talking about it, which is cool, in my opinion. So, you know, I'm going to keep watching, listening, reading, whatever it is. Yeah. And I think there's no harm in that. I think where we have to be cautious is, I mean, I hear me honest, we've been talking about this last, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes. I said we wouldn't. I know. And we have to be cautious because again, we've allocated, you know, 20 minutes of our time talking about this and what haven't we talked about, right?

There's a lot of other euphological work out there being done that isn't getting attention because of, to the stars. And you have to kind of be critical. Like, I'm not being critical in a negative way, but I'm being critical because, you know, I'm critical. We have to sort of be cautious of whose narrative we tell. Do I think TTSA is some grand conspiracy run by the CIA? No, don't be stupid. But do I think that there's a bit of perception management at times? Potentially, I mean, you know, if the intelligence community has its hands in something,

perception is very much an important aspect, right? Optics, right, controlling the optics. But then, you know, Tom Delon goes on Joe Rogan. There goes the optic. There goes the optic. Well, man, I'm going to consider this part one of our conversation, the laundry list, as it were. So hang tight, everyone, and join us next week for part two when we tackle a love. very human approach to a possible alien phenomenon.

Before we go, though, I want to leave you with a nightcap song from Friends of the Show, Rogue Diplomats. Be sure to check out their new album, Whiskey Picnic, now available at their website, rogdiplomats.com. Here is their whiskey and al-fueled anthem, Old Brown Al. Remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the whiskey. I mean, skies, somewhere in the skies. Well, the sea beds host to many a treasure. Fine gold and riches all beyond measure.

But the thing I seek to which all these pale is my captain's list to make old brown ale. For it's one pint to sea lad is one pint pale. One quarter whiskey, that's the old brown ale, for it's one pint sea, lad is one pint play, that's the old brown. The valiant took her privateer crew, from port to port, only one thing's true. You can spend your money, or free hear this tale,

there's none as sating as the old brown ale. It's one pint to sea, that is one pint bale. One quart of whiskey, that's the old brown ale, for it's one pint sea, lad he's one pint and he is known for his wicked grin as the sock does drip from his ruddy red chin but it's not blood which will brim his grail just a homemade batch of that old brown ale that's the old brown is tossed one terrible day the recipe lost as we drift into the bay and now all that's left are some broken sails and a mere ten gallows of that old brown ale See, that is one pint

Ailski, that's the old brown ale For it's one pint See lad is one pint The old brown For a half week And we'll rest our legs If you come on board You can drain these tricks

And if we scrape bottom Doesn't mean we're through Just in time comes the captain With a brand new brew See that is one pint of tail One quarter whiskey That's the old brown and fur. It's one pint seal that is one pint.

Everywhere in the skies is produced by third kind productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network. To learn more, visit Entertainment One Podcast.com.